John and Rory Williams 62 MINUTES
A wine podcast series from Doug Shafer about the people behind the food and wine you love.
In 1975 John Williams arrived in Napa Valley with a return bus ticket and $40 in his pocket. He fell in love with wine and never used that return ticket – instead launching Frog’s Leap Winery. Today John and his son Rory (who also owns Calder Wine Co.) are running Frog’s Leap together and on the podcast,they discuss the joys and challenges of family business.
For more visit: FrogsLeap.com and CalderWine.com
Explore the Frog's Leap and Calder wines featured in this podcast.
The Taste with Doug Shafer wine podcast is also available on:
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Doug Shafer:
Hey
everybody. Welcome back. It's Doug Shafer with another episode of the taste.
Today, we've got, uh, John and Rory Williams, father/son team running a well
known, very successful long-term family winery here in the Napa Valley, Frog's
Leap. Welcome guys.
John Williams:
Hey,
Doug (laughs).
Rory Williams:
Hey,
Doug. Thanks for having us on.
Doug Shafer:
You
bet. Rory, I think I first met or saw you as a little kid at some soccer game
or elementary school with my kids, or probably riding shotgun in your dad's
pickup truck a million years ago. Well, not that long ago.
Rory Williams:
I
think I was probably driving him home from a restaurant, you know, at five
years old.
Doug Shafer:
There
you go. There you go. And, John, you know, I can't... I, I was racking my brain
last night, I don't remember when we met. I just, I know you were pals with my
dad. You guys were both Cornell alums and, you know, Rory too. But our paths
have crossed for all these years, but I really, you know, remember spending
more time with you back in the late '80s when you introduced me to Amigo Bob,
uh, which we'll talk more about that later. But, hey, can you remember when we
met? Any ideas?
John Williams:
You
know, I was thinking about it as well, Doug, and I, I really don't. Obviously
it, it kind of folded in with your, your dad and I were such buds and was on
Vintner trips together and hanging out with, uh, some of the other characters
of that era. And, uh, yeah, but then our, um, you know, our kids were, uh, were
growing up at the same time. So it's all kind of, uh, tumbled up in there. Um,
you know, I, I, I remember as you started getting involved, uh, with the winery
that, uh, there was certainly a little more interaction at that point. But, uh,
I, I think it just unfolded over time, basically.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah,
it's just we've, we've grown up together. I'm not gonna say we've grown old
together, but we're just (laughing), we're still, we're still growing together.
But, you guys, thanks both of you for doing this. Uh, I've been looking forward
to doing this for a while. Um, a lot to cover, John. There's your story, the
story of Frog's Leap. Rory, I know there's a lot to your story. We'll get to
that in a bit, so it's gonna be fun. But before we start with John, we, we had
a, uh, something happen here. Uh, Rory, you're nice to be wide awake. I don't
know if you're wide awake 'cause I heard you didn't get much sleep last night.
What, what happened last night?
Rory Williams:
Kind
of a late frost, it was pretty crazy. Um, it got cold here in Rutherford. Um,
we were up at 2:00 in the morning and frost fans were on. We turned water on,
it was a, it was a busy night for sure. Nothing extremely dangerous here in the
Valley, but I know that in some of the outer valleys, Chiles Valley, Pope
Valley, it was, it was cold.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Rory Williams:
Um,
and these are kind of, these are kind of the days of killer frost. You get one
now, there's not much, not much you can do to come back from it, so.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah,
I'm with you. We, we haven't talked about frost on this thing, which is, uh,
you know, I think we try to get too techie, but normal frost is-
Rory Williams:
That's
generally a good thing if you're not talking about frost (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Yeah,
exactly.
Rory Williams:
No
news is good n-, good news.
Doug Shafer:
But
normally by early May, which is, is right now, you know, frost season has
passed the danger. But we had a cold one last night and, uh, some people,
fortunately not John or me anymore, but (laughs) the younger generation has to
get up at... So, Rory, you were up at what? 1:00 or 2:00?
Rory Williams:
2:00
in the morning. Um, everything was, uh, starting to get cold. So I dragged
myself outta bed and start to check machines, turn on machines, make sure
everything's working. Uh, you know, normal frost night stuff and, uh, look
forward to the nap in the, in the morning (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Got
it. Do you, do you actually go home and nap or some... I know some guys just
sleep in their trucks (laughing).
Rory Williams:
Right
now I, I, I get better than a nap. I get to go home and, uh, make my
two-year-old breakfast. Uh, and so it's (laughing), which is a way of waking
up, I suppose.
Doug Shafer:
Oh,
man. That brings back memories. Oh, man. All right, well, listen, I'm gonna,
you know, hit your dad early here. So take a, take a little snooze here for a
minute if you want. Um-
Rory Williams:
Sounds
good. I'll catch you guys before you know.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Because you, you de-, you deserve it. Um, all right John, you, we start with
you. Now, I know you're from New York and if I've done my research right, I
think you grew up on a dairy farm in New York, right?
John Williams:
Well,
that's a little bit of a controversy. I, I, I got farmed (laughing) out from my
family, uh, uh, regularly every summer, uh, down to my grandfather's dairy
farm.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Williams:
My,
uh, dad was smart enough to get outta dairy at some point and got into other
things that didn't make any money. Uh, but, uh, yeah, I spent a lot of time on
my grandfather's dairy farm. So that's where, that's where that story comes
from. And, uh, uh, you know, it, it certainly instructed me, uh, and I grow,
grew up in agriculture, that's for sure.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
And, uh, family, you got brothers, sisters? We've never had this chat.
John Williams:
(laughing)
Yep, brother and two sisters to, you know, Ralph and Alice, uh, mom and dad.
Uh, very typical, rural, um, family, background for sure. Uh, church and, uh,
and community and school and, uh, and that's about it.
Doug Shafer:
What
part, what part of New York? What town?
John Williams:
Chautauqua
County's the little corner of New York over, uh, by Lake Erie. In fact, Erie,
Pennsylvania is the closest city to where we grew up. But there's a little ski
resort there and our farm was right above and right below the ski resort, and
it's all dairy country. And, uh, now a lot of Amish, uh, it's a very depressed,
uh, area, but most of my family still lives in that, in that area of the
country.
Doug Shafer:
Okay,
all right. How about wine? Was that part of the, the household beverage at that
time?
John Williams:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Why
are you laughing? Come on. That's a good, it's an honest question (laughs).
John Williams:
Yeah.
Yeah. Um, we were, uh, my family didn't drink and, uh, considered, uh, sin
against God to drink as a matter of fact. So I did not grow up with much of a
wine background. But, you know, it is a grape country, and so, uh, my first job
actually was with Welch's grape juice. And, in fact, a communion and the church
was not wine, but, uh, grape juice. It was a, uh, it was a sad state of affairs
as I later came to realize (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
And,
uh, so high school was back there. What were, what was, what were you doing in
high school? What were you into?
John Williams:
Well,
you know, it was a small school. I think there were 54 kids in my class, and so
you were everything. And so, you know, you- you're in the band, you're in the
chorus, you're in the student council, you're in the, uh, debate society.
You're in, you play every one of the sports just 'cause they wouldn't have
enough kids on the team, otherwise (laughing). Uh, you know, it was just, uh
(laughs), it was a, a, you know, Ozzie and Harriet, basically. It was a, it was
an old school.
Doug Shafer:
Neat,
neat. And, uh, ended up right to Cornell after high school. Is that how it
went?
John Williams:
Yeah,
I was really fortunate. I was a good enough student, I guess, but not a
brilliant academic. But I, uh, uh, had a guidance counselor who believed in me
and, um, and uh, decided I was gonna go to Cornell almost. I mean, my family
didn't really have those kind of aspirations, but I got a scholarship to go to
Cornell University and, uh, never really been out, out of the area. Certainly
was a revelation because when I enrolled at, uh, Cornell, it was the time of
the whole, uh, civil rights movement. It was the time of the Vietnam War
protests. It was a lot of experimentation with things that I (laughs) would've
not considered otherwise in Clymer (laughing).
And
so it was a, it was a, uh, it was a real eye-opening experience for me and
brought me into a, a whole different world. And then, of course I, I ran outta
money after my first year and had to get a, uh, a job. And, uh, that's when I
got the work study program with the Taylor Wine Company, which was my first
introduction to wine. So all this happened in a very short period of time and
was the fundamental, uh, change in my, uh, my, uh, life decisions, I guess you
would say.
Doug Shafer:
So
you're working at Taylor, what were you doing at the Taylor Wine Company?
John Williams:
They
had a program with the university, uh, where you could, um, I was essentially
an intern, but I worked in every department in the... This, uh, Taylor at that
point, was a family owned winery making, uh, god awful wines from Concord and
Catawba and Niagara, the Labrusca varieties, which they were very proud of.
But, uh, they're only made palatable by bringing in large tankfuls of wine from
California out of the Central Valley to blend with these Labrusca varieties to
make them somewhat, uh, palatable, very sweet.
And,
and this was my introduction to wine so, uh, (laughs), you know, it was right
up there with Boone's Farm and Ripple, I'm afraid, um, some of these wines.
But, uh, I had no idea at that point. I discovered fairly shortly afterwards
that there were better wines made in the world and it didn't take me long to
incorporate those into my, uh, into my life.
Doug Shafer:
Hey
man, don’t knock Boone's Farm, that was, that was my first wine (laughing).
That was on back, back in the summers on the beach in Michigan.
John Williams:
Oh,
there you go bragging again, Shafer (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Oh no, man. We, people have heard this story. Boone's Farm was the go-to. Well,
lock, along with a lot of beer. This is summers in Michigan, but if you wanna
impress somebody like a, a, a girl, um, you got a bottle of Mateus 'cause they
had that really cool bottle. That was the, that was, that was, that was-
John Williams:
Oh,
yeah, yeah, no, I kept one in my room and it had the little dust on it claiming
it was one of the last smuggled out. It never worked, but I always thought of
it (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
I'm
surprised we haven't had the same, this conversation before we got similar
paths (laughing). So, so Taylor Wine Company, so is that when the wine bug
kicked in? Is that what happened?
John Williams:
Well,
I dunno if you've ever been to the Finger Lakes there, but the, you know, the,
the vineyards cascade right down to these beautiful lakes and the little
communities. And then the going to this big winery with big tanks of booze and
pretty girls giving tours and not a cow in sight. And it didn't take me long to
raise my hands saying, "I think I can do this." So it was a
fundamental, uh, life changing path. It was really that moment, you know, your
aha moment.
Doug Shafer:
Uh-huh,
so you, did you... 'cause I think the next thing I have is, you know, somehow you
made your way out to Napa. Was that after Cornell or you just, you just got in
a, you know, you just, you know, tell me about getting to Napa? What was that
all about?
John Williams:
Well,
I worked every other semester of, at the winery and so I worked everything from
growers, uh, support to the vineyards, to the labs, to, you know, um, uh,
marketing and purchasing. As it was a really arou-, a very interesting
experience at a bigger winery. But Cornell didn't have a wine making department
at that point. They, they have an excellent one now-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm.
John Williams:
...
and Rory can talk about that. But, at that point, the only thing that was close
by was actually, uh, a ch-, a dairy fermentation. So I got my degree in cheese
making at Cornell (laughing), and don't, uh, don't, don't tell anyone. Um, and,
but they didn't have a wine making program. But I, I knew I was gonna get into
wine, and of course everything was just starting to happen. Remember that we're
talking '72, '73 so Robert Mondavi Winery was just, you know, six or seven
years old. All these wineries, uh, were starting up. There was a lot of
excitement about the Napa Valley, which I was hearing about.
And
so literally in the, uh, in the spring break of, um, the 1975, I got the $69
AmeriPass on the Greyhound bus and, uh, set off for California. And five days
later, I found myself in California, um, with, uh, 40 bucks in my pocket. I
didn't know anyone, didn't have a job and, uh, I never used the return ticket
and-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
John Williams:
...
said, I'm just gonna stay in Napa Valley and make it happen.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
John Williams:
I'm
now $22 million in debt. It's going real good.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Oh, man, come on. Stop, stop, you've been super successful and you know it. Um,
so you show up, you don't know anybody, had no money. Were you thinking U.C.
Davis, um, there's the famous story about, you know, you illegally camping on
somebody's property we need to hear about. What, what happened?
John Williams:
Well,
I had a, a young woman in my tasting group, uh, Helen Turley, uh, at Cornell
and she thought her brother had a place out here. And she didn't have a phone
number, but she had an address. So I hitchhiked up from Vallejo on a Sunday
evening. And, uh, there was no one at the house, it was abandoned (laughing),
uh, and, and, and should be. It didn't, and no one could live there except for
me that night. And, uh, but Larry, uh, showed up on his motorcycle the next
morning at, uh, I dunno, 6:00 in the morning.
And,
uh, fortunately, I had a bottle of, um, of wine in my tent with me and we got
into that and drank a couple other bottles and that's when we decided to start
a winery together. So that's how I met the, the famous char-, uh, character,
Larry Turley, who eventually became my partner in starting Frog's Leap in 1981.
Doug Shafer:
So
Helen, so that's where Helen came from. Cor-, she, you met her at Cornell. I
never knew that. I never knew she was there. How cool, 'cause she and Larry
were brother and sister, so. Okay, so that's how that happened. So you and
Larry now, was Larry a doctor at the time or studying to be one? 'Cause I know
he was an ER doc for a long time.
John Williams:
Yeah,
he was a, he was actually coming off from shift when we met, uh, the next
morning. And so, uh, yeah, he was an emergency room physician over in Santa
Rosa.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Okay, so that was the start of your guys' partnership, which we'll get to in a
minute. But, you know, what was, what was Napa like back then? And, uh, it was
'70 when? 75, you said?
John Williams:
'75
and it was, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
John Williams:
...
well, you, you know, uh, you, you were, you were around, it was pretty rural
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
John Williams:
There
was not much happening here. And St. Helena was unrecognizable to, to in places
like Yountville that were just backwaters. And Napa itself, of course, was, uh,
not much going on. So it was, uh, it was a distinctly different place. I think
'75 was the last year, there were more prunes planted in the Napa Valley than
grapes.
Doug Shafer:
Right,
right, I do remember that. Um, and so, so you jump in and, uh, it's jumbled for
me 'cause I think there's UC Davis stuff, there's working at Stag's Leap Wine
Cellars. What, what, how'd you get going those first couple years?
John Williams:
Yeah.
Well, I, I managed to talk my way into UC Davis, um, but I didn't have any
money so I had to work too. And Larry had some friends who were bottling their
first wine, so I get to a job as the first employee of, uh, Stag's Leap Wine
Cellars. And uh, so I started at Stag's Leap in ‘75. So I was, uh, working
summers and, um, evening shift, uh, during harvest at Stag's Leap, taking
classes at UC Davis and sleeping at the Frog Farm. So I had a little Honda 350
motorcycle that got me between all three of these places. And, uh-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
John Williams:
...
uh, that's how I made my way for about a year until I could get some more
permanent housing (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Wow,
wow. That's crazy. So at Davis, were you going, were you just taking classes or
were you going for, going actually for a degree?
John Williams:
Yeah,
I got my master's degree in '77-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Williams:
...
so I was, uh, I was in gra-... I think I, I was probably in graduate school at
the same time you were an undergrad, if I, if I remember my timing on this
right.
Doug Shafer:
That's
about right. Yeah, I was still undergrad and I was there at between '74 and
'78, right. But see, by '77 I had decided I wanted to teach school. So instead
of taking a lot of upper division enology, I started taking ed psych and all
that stuff. So I missed out on some of those. I probably didn't... I don't
think our paths crossed then, but I was hanging with some other folks. Who
were, who were some of your peers there at the ti- time?
John Williams:
Well,
I think you've talked to a few of 'em, uh, John- Johnny Kongsgaard and, um,
Mike Martini, and Dick Ward, Dave Graves. Uh, Dan Lee was my roommate, my, uh,
my last year there from Oregon Winery.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Williams:
Um,
you know, the whole, there was a whole group of us, uh, Lee Hudson. Uh, you
know, there was a, there was a whole group that have gone on to, uh, uh, to
be... And, you know, Cathy Corison was in the lab with me, Tom Peterson. Uh,
just a number of that, that, that whole class is really remarkable class of,
uh, uh, young people. I, I didn't get to hang out with him as much as I
would've liked and that I was, um, you know, I was working, uh, by night and I
was doing my, uh, thesis work at Robert Mondavi and I, you know, did it on
clarification methods and was using their centrifuge.
So
I'd go work in harvest, uh, from harvest we'd clean up 11:00 at night, and so
at, um, at Stag's Leap. And then I'd go over to Mondavi and do my thesis work,
uh, until about, you know, 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning. And then I'd ride over
and, and, uh, you know, uh, do class and then I'd be back over to Stag's Leap.
So (laughs) the only time I actually slept was while I was in class, I think
(laughing), so I didn't get to hang out as much as I would've liked. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You
were busy.
John Williams:
That
was a crazy time.
Doug Shafer:
It
was crazy.
John Williams:
Yeah,
crazy time.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah,
but, but I, am I wrong? Was it just great? Did you just love it?
John Williams:
Oh
my god, I, I mean, uh, you know, it was so thrilling and, uh, you know, we, we
had a sense of the kind of wines that we could make, uh, in Napa. And, and this
whole crew of, of, uh, uh, people like your dad and Da- Dan Duckhorn and, uh,
Koerner Rombauer. And, I mean, there was just a whole bunch of us who were, uh,
um, you know, excited. Jack and, uh, Jamie Davies were good friends. So it was
that whole, uh, movement of time that I kind of got sucked into as well. And I
spent as much time with that group as I did with my Davis - but between the,
between them all, it really was a remarkable, just unbelievable experience.
Doug Shafer:
It
was a, it was a neat time. And really, um, and none of us kind of... I don't
think we really realized it, you know, how neat it was. But, um, it was, it was
a changer for this valley, for sure. So you're, you're getting outta Davis and
then... so I'm thinking you're gonna start Frog's Leap, but I'm doing some
research on you. You went back and got a job in New York making wine. right, is
that what happened?
John Williams:
Yeah,
when I graduated in '77, there were lots of assistant winemaker jobs available
here. But I got an offer to, uh, go back and be a startup winemaker, including
designing the winery and equipping it and so on. And I thought that that would
be great experience. I felt, I guess I had a little bit of debt, uh, back in
New York State, uh, my original, uh, time there. And, uh, and I had some good
friends like, uh, Herman Beemer who, uh, of course, has gone on to make these
fantastic Rieslings. Uh, so I, I knew I could sense the potential. I'd hung out
enough with Dr. Konstantin Frank and was inspired by him. And I knew there was
potential for great wine there.
Um,
and so, uh, had I not met a California girl while I was in New York, I
probably, uh, would still be there. Uh, but, uh, when I met Julie, we, uh,
decided to, uh, (laughs) our condition of the, of the, uh, agreement was to,
uh, move back to California. So back I came in, uh, 1980 to take the head
winemaking job at Spring Mountain Vineyards. And that's when Larry and I
reconnected and said, "Let's, instead of making illegal amounts of
homemade wine, why don't we make the, a, a little wine on our own?" And
that's when we started Frog's Leap in 1981.
Doug Shafer:
Okay,
so it was '81. So, seriously, um, Frog's Leap, you know, it's, it's is still a
kind of off the wall name, so what's the...
John Williams:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
People,
people need to know the story. How did, you know, what did you guys do? Like
focus groups and talk to consumers? How'd you do it (laughing)?
John Williams:
Yeah,
well, uh, it kind of happened to us. Uh, uh, you know, people say, "How'd
you get the name Frog's Leap?" And I had to admit that we'd been drinking.
Um, you know, we, we may know we were making-
Doug Shafer:
No,
really? I can't believe that (laughing). You two guys, no way.
John Williams:
(laughs)
We were making wine. Our first little batch of wine were some grapes. We, uh,
at first, well, you need to know that Larry's place, we started fixing it up
and, uh, discovered in the process that it had been a, um, commercial frog raising
farm. So it, we called it the Frog Farm.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Williams:
And
then, uh, you know, we, we got our first, a little batch of grapes. There were
six, uh, Chardonnay vines had been misbudded in the, uh, CASK 23, or would've
went on to be the, uh, the S.L.V. Vineyard. Uh, that, uh, Warren, I think gave
me the fruit and we made a little five gallon jug of wine. And, uh, it was
still fermenting one night, but we ran out of other stuff to drink (laughing),
so I think we drank something like four of the five gallons.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
John Williams:
And
in an honor of Stag's Leap, where we'd procured the grapes and, uh, the Frog
Farm, where we made the wine, someone came up with this Frog's Leap. And we
just thought it was hilarious, and, uh (laughing) so we started calling our
homemade wine Frog's Leap. And, uh, and then we started selling it. And before
we knew it, it was in the New York Times and getting distributors and, and, and
we're just like, "Well, wh- wh- what are we gonna do now? We can't call a
winery Frog's Leap, but, um, and we're kind of stuck with it 42 years later, I
guess.
Doug Shafer:
No,
it's been, it's been a great run (laughs). Um, so, so you've mentioned Spring
Mountain. So Spring Mountain, that was Mike Robin's own Spring Mountain Winery
just, just right, right next to St. Helena. So you got the head winemaking job.
You're starting to do Frog's Leap with Larry on the side. Um, Spring Mountain
was... Today's listeners will have to go back to YouTube to look it up, but it
was the, uh, place where they filmed a TV show called Falcon Crest. Um-
John Williams:
(laughs)
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So
were you there, were you, were you there for all that filming (laughs)?
John Williams:
Yeah,
I, I was and, uh, it's, uh, de- definitely part of why I left (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Oh,
no. Yeah, because it was quite the hot show at the time. Wasn't it?
John Williams:
God
knows why, but yes, indeed. And, um, it was, um, I, you, you know, as well as I
do that, um, and I'll tell one story, is it, uh, when you're bottling, you're
nervous as a winemaker. It's only bad things can happen when you bottle wine.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm.
John Williams:
And,
uh, we were bottling and, uh, this guy comes in because they had the trailers
there. They were filming the pilot for Falcon Crest, and he says, uh, "All
this machinery's making too much noise. We're gonna ask you to, um, uh, shut
down for wh-, a while, while Ms. Wyman gets her nap in her trailer." And I
told her-
Doug Shafer:
Oh,
man.
John Williams:
...
I said, "Gee, you could tell Ms. Wyman that we're not shutting down the
equipment (laughs). Uh, and we- we're bottling wine, and now we're not gonna be
shutting down any equipment." In about, uh, uh, 15 minutes later, Mike
walks in and says, "Why don't we all take a break for the rest of the day
(laughs)?" And, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Oh
no.
John Williams:
...
that's when I knew I was gonna have to leave Spring Mountain because, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Oh
man.
John Williams:
...
filming this TV show became, had become more important to the owner than, uh,
than making wine.
Doug Shafer:
Got
it. And then, uh, we'll get Rory, we'll see if Rory's... We, we gotta wake Rory
up here.
John Williams:
I'll
wake him up here (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
We'll
wake him up. Um, so right now we're, I'm looking at Rory, I think 1984, you
burst on the scene. Is that the right year?
Rory Williams:
Yeah,
that's what they tell me. Yeah (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Okay,
so first born of John and Julie's, and I think '84, was that the first leap
year party also?
Rory Williams:
I
think that was the first leap year party, uh, Mustards. Correct, if, if I'm
right, dad?
John Williams:
Correct.
Doug Shafer:
Well,
I'm sure Rory probably wasn't there, but I think I'm sure John was, I'm sure I
was too. But, obviously, can't remember that one. Um, if people don't realize
every four years on, uh, February 29th, is that correct? On Leap Year, there's
an annual Frog's Leap party, which is, uh, oh my gosh, it's it's, um, renowned,
it's, um, there's too many stories to go into. We won't do that here, but it's
suffice to say it's an experience. Um, so Rory's born, John you're, when did,
so when did you make the move from Spring Mountain? Was that '84, '85?
John Williams:
Yeah,
about that time.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Williams:
Uh,
uh, you know, we, I had, we had to mix it in with, uh, some consulting jobs to
make ends meet. But, um, we, we pretty much decided, uh, about '85, '86 that,
uh, we were going to be able to make a go of it at, um, uh, and turn this into
a real winery. And, uh, and so we, we kind of jumped in with both feet and, uh,
started to make it happen at that point.
Doug Shafer:
So
that's, and that's making it right at the original, uh, the Frog Farm, Larry's
property, that's where you guys started?
John Williams:
Well,
it was a mixture that was a pretty small place with, uh, limited facilities,
but we started to redo it. But, uh, yeah, we, we were doing some custom
crushing. We were, had a barrel storage unit. You know, you know how, when you
bootleg these projects without a lot of money, it, uh, you do just whatever you
have to do to, to get it going. We didn't have any vineyards at that point
either, so we were buying fruit and, uh, um, it was definitely boot strapping.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm,
definitely. And that's, um, that's about the time period in the late '80s, I, I
remember, it's 1988, '89, you called me up and said, "Shafer, you gotta
meet this guy." I said, "Who's that?" You go, you said,
"It's Amigo Bob." I said, "(laughs) You're kidding, right?"
He goes, "No, he's –“ And you were like really serious and said,
"Shafer, you gotta meet this guy." And we met over at Sinskey, and
you and Amigo Bob and I went over and met in at, at Rob Sinskey's place.
And,
uh, I walk in and this guy is, big, burly, handsome guy, long hair, shorts. It
was January's cold, you know, Birkenstock sandals, has got tight eye t-shirt,
he's a Deadhead. And, uh, one of the most (laughs) brilliant guys I've ever met
in my life. But talk about Amigo Bob a little bit, John, 'cause you had such
great times with him and he taught us all so much.
John Williams:
I
mean, um, um, organic farming is, uh, and we've been certified organic now for
35 years at Frog's Leap. So we were early advocates and, um, and learners about
organic farming and my mentor and my, uh, teacher was this guy, Amigo Bob. Who
really didn't have a lot of experience in vineyards, but he didn't (laughs),
uh, he was about the only one. We're talking, yeah as you mentioned, um, late,
um, late '80s, um, not many people had knowledge about how to farm anything
organically, um, much less grapes. And uh, uh, but we, uh, we brought him and
we invited him over to meet a few growers and, uh, we committed to farming our
own, uh, vineyards, which we were just starting to acquire at that point.
And,
um, and decided that organic farming was gonna be part of our future. And we,
you, you know, farming organically by be- being the only one doesn't work in
organic farming, you need to inspire others. And, uh, and so we started, uh,
uh, the first organic wine school in 1989 and really started to, uh, uh, teach
others and, and get others involved, including, uh, thankfully you guys and,
uh, and, uh, Rob and a number of other people. And, uh, and, uh, well, I'm
proud to say that there are now more c- certified organic vineyards in Napa
County than any other county in, uh, in California. And that's because of all
the work that, uh, that you guys did, that we did. Uh, and certainly, Amigo Bob
who at one point had something like, uh, 30 or 40 clients here in Napa.
Doug Shafer:
No,
I’m with you, he was great, he taught us so much and, you know, listen, you
need to give yourself credit. You were the major force in this valley, getting
people away from the traditional, um, farming and, and chemical use in the
vineyards. And, you know, I remember when we started with them and it, it
wasn't, you know, instant success. It was you, you learned. I mean, this cover
crop thing, you know, was a... which is great now, 'cause we all know how to do
it. But, at first, it's like, "Oh, I didn't mow it in time, or two, I
mowed it too soon." Or, you know, my, my vineyard guys would come to me on
the we-, on Monday mornings and said, "Hey, I was at a barbecue yesterday?
and all my friends are giving me a hard time 'cause our vineyard looked so
trashy (laughs)."
I
said, "Be- because it wasn't buffed out and nuked, you know, all the weeds
and all that stuff." So there was a whole learning curve here just to say,
"Hey, this is okay, this is how it works, and there's it's long-term
benefits." And, and there are long-term benefits that need to take time.
They gotta be patient, but it's, uh, it was, uh, I was very aware of just the whole
mindset change from just that. And Amigo really helped me with that and he
said, "You know, guys in the Central Valley have been, you know, growing
carrots forever and they just keep using chemicals and they have the same
problems. There's gotta be another way to solve this."
So
it was, uh, it was kind of a sea change around here, which was great. And it
spread, you know, throughout agriculture, you know, nationwide, which is
really, really nice. Um, moving on, um, you and Larry, early '90s, I think you
guys went your separate ways and so you had to find a new home for Frog's Leap.
Um, I think down by it's called the Red Barn. Tell us about that whole era for
Frog's?
John Williams:
Yeah.
Uh, well, I, I mean, it was, it was really exciting to see, uh, Larry who
always had an interest in wine, but he was a medical doctor. He was supposed to
be the money in the partnership (laughs), but he had a little trouble holding
on the wives, so that, that wasn't, uh, really the role he ended up playing. He
was, uh, but he was, uh, always excited about that and really wanted to get in
the wine business himself. And, um, and so we decided, at one point, well, well
we needed to start a second winery. So we started Turley, uh, so Larry and I
could split and each have our own winery.
So
he started a new winery, Turley at the old location, the old Frog Farm, which
of course was his home. And, um, and we took, uh, Frog's Leap, uh, the old
winery to a new location. Um, and that's, uh, you know, I was on the board of
the Wine Service Co-op with, uh, Chuck Carpy who, uh, he and his partners owned
this old Red Barn, uh, down in Rutherford. We all knew about it, uh, but uh,
had 40 acres of dead vineyard and, uh, the barn was falling over-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
John Williams:
...
and it was, uh, no, it was, it was a, uh, basically, a toxic waste dump around
here (laughs). And, uh, I said, "That looks perfect, Chuck. Any chance
you'd (laughing), uh, at lease me that?" And, uh, and he eventually sold
that property to us. And, uh, we moved down here and straightened up the barn
and replanted the vineyard and planted a few posies and this is home now, uh,
after, uh, what's that, to almost 25 years or more. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh,
it's a beautiful property. And, Chuck Carpy, many folks don't know that name.
He was, uh, one of the original partners in Freemark Abbey, as I recall, and
also Rutherford Hill. This is back in the kind of heyday of Freemark back in
the '70s and Rutherford Hill is being developed. But, um, long time Napa Valley
resident and just did wonderful things for this whole valley. And just, um, one
of, you know, one of the founding fa- fathers that no one knows about, but
great family, so glad you-
John Williams:
Yeah,
a gen-, a gentle giant, and a great, uh, a great hero of mine.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm.
So you're, you got the Red Barn, you guys have moved in you've, uh... Oh, you
started buying... Talk to me about the Rossi Vineyard 'cause I remember you,
you told me about this for years. It's 'cause you g-, you get the fruit and I
think you're living there now, right?
John Williams:
Yeah.
Well, you, you know, um, a winery is only complete when it grows its own grapes
and, um, that's why I'm so, you know, excited that when Rory came back on, he,
he really wanted to get involved in the vineyards. We'll, we'll get to that in
a second. But, uh, uh, acquiring vineyards in Napa, particularly, if you're
bootstrapping is, is, uh, a laborious way. Uh, (laughs) you know, takes time
and, uh, so we had, uh, we had bought 30 acres over on the west side of Rutherford,
uh, uh, in, uh, '87. And then we, uh, brought the Red Barn here in '94, we
added 40, uh, acres of vineyard.
And
then, um, we bought a vineyard down at the end of Galleron, well, a piece of
ground down at the end of Galleron Lane in, um, '98 from Alice Galleron and
that's where we grow our Sauvignon Blanc. And then we, uh, started buying some
grapes from, uh, Louise and Ray Rossi at the, the famous Rossi Ranch, uh, which
had been in their family since, uh, 1908. And, uh, and then as they got older
into their '80s and '90s, we, uh, started, uh, helping them with their vineyard
work. And, um, and the long and the short of it, when, um, uh, Louise passed in
2007, she was the last of the family members. Uh, she had, um, given us an
opportunity to, to buy the vineyard, um, a- as long as we put it into the land
trust and preserved it as it was.
And,
uh, that's what we committed to doing. So we bought that property in '07 and
that's another 50 acres and that's really kind of a closed the loop for us.
That's why we're now essentially a estate grown on most of our wines with the
exception of, um, the Chardonnay, which we still buy from Tony Truchard. So
that completed the circle for us, uh, and turned us into the estate winery we
are today and, uh, given Rory, uh, 200 acres to farm with his mentor, uh, Frank
Leeds and I was glad to turn that responsibility over to him, uh, as times come
along. So he can be up at 2:00 in the morning, uh, (laughing) fighting for us
instead of me (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
All
right, uh, we're gonna get to Rory in a second, but before we do give, give me
the, give the lineup? What's, what's the lineup of Frog's Leap wines these
days? What, what are you guys making?
John Williams:
Well,
we're fairly unique in that half of our production is white wine and we've been
with Sauvignon Blanc really from the very beginning. It's a variety I loved.
That one of my first trip to Europe was to Sancerre, and I fell in love with
this idea that our wine, uh, spoke to the, uh, area. That the food, that the
culture, everything, uh, um, e- evolved around this beautiful grape Sauvignon
Blanc. So it was not a popular variety when we, uh, pine, you know, worked with
it. Um, Mondavi was making a Fume Blanc, but, uh, uh, '81, we were really kind
of champions of Sauvignon Blanc.
Uh,
um, we added a Chardonnay because that, uh, my friend, Tony Truchard, offered
us the grapes in '85. He'd planted them in '79, so we'd been working the same
vineyard for, um, all these years. And, um, and then, of course, um, as we
added vineyards, we've always loved Zinfandel, which is a major part of our
production. A little bit of Merlot and Cabernet Sauvignon. And, um, uh, you
know, we now, uh, have an estate grown Rutherford Bench Cabernet Sauvignon that
is just, just unbelievable. Um, and, uh, we love it as well. And, uh, so that
fills out the lineup, but, uh, you know, uh, we, we all, we have a bunch of
other things that Rory can talk about that are interesting.
Uh,
everything from Charbono to Mourvèdre that we, uh, Patisserie, that we're
having lots of fun with making different wines. So there's always something
going on here that's outside of our core, uh, five wines, uh, that we're always
experimenting and having fun with. And, um, you know, uh, it- it's kind of a,
kind of interesting. Um, uh, you know, when I came to Napa in '75, I mean,
Cabernet Sauvignon, I mean, there were more, there was more, uh, Sauvignon Vert
than there was Cabernet Sauvignon (laugh) I think.
Doug Shafer:
Right,
right. I know that.
John Williams:
Uh,
some of these old varieties have a nostalgia and maybe have, uh, a greater role
as we move forward with climate change and the... And so it's nice to stay in
touch with these older varieties as well.
Doug Shafer:
Well,
I'm with you. We've all, we've all tried things through the years and some
things work out and some things don't. You know, we made a Sangiovese Cabernet
for 10 years, Firebreak, which was a lot of fun at the time. But, you know,
that- that's gone by the wayside. But I gotta ask you one last question because
it was the late '90s. Leapfrogmilch, help me about, help, tell me this story?
You actually had a Lederhosen, Lederho- (laughs), Lederhosen party in Mount
View Hotel in Calistoga? Come on, one last story then we (laughing) get to
Rory. Leapfrogmilch what were the heck was that, John?
John Williams:
Well,
well, when we started buying, uh, grapes from the Rossi's, they, um, you know,
they had a little Cabernet Sauvignon, a little Sauvignon Blanc, which we were
desperate to get and glad to get it. But they said, uh, "Well, you know,
we have this Riesling as well (laughing). Well, what the hell was I gonna do
with Riesling, you know (laughing)? And so we brought it back to the winery and
what are we gonna do with this? Because no one was, I mean, Riesling was not
exactly thought to be a, uh, major variety in the Napa Valley at this point.
But we had to buy the grapes to get the other grapes.
And,
uh, and so we, uh, tried to come up with original ideas to, to get rid of, uh,
of these Riesling grapes. So we, uh, we made a sweet wine the first year that
was tremendous that we called Frogenbeerenauslese, but they were all plays on
names of, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Williams:
...
of, uh, of German Riesling names. And, uh, and then, um, uh, and then he, we
had to get rid of some more of it (laughs). And, uh, so we made this beautiful
little delicate, um, white wine from Riesling, uh, uh, and we, we knew we
couldn't sell those Rieslings so I thought, you know, when, when I grew up, uh,
you know, if you really wanted to get after the Mateus and the Lancers, uh, Liebfra-,
uh, Liebfraumilch was the German wine that you could afford to buy. And so
(laughing), uh, I thought Leapfrogmilch would be a perfect way to, uh, market
Riesling. And that turned out not to be the case as it (laughs), but we still
have a few bottles of it. It's absolutely delicious (laughing) and, uh, so
there, there may be a, a resurgence of Leapfrogmilch soon. Stay tuned.
Doug Shafer:
All
right. All right, I will, I will. Well, thanks, man. Um, okay, Rory, getting
back to you. Um, I've talked with people on this, this show with who've grown
up at wineries, but, uh, I think you're the only one that grew up at two
wineries. You got your dad's Frog's Leap and your mom's Tres Sabores, right?
And were you working at both places? What was that all about?
Rory Williams:
Working
at both places, uh, growing up around it. I mean, my earliest memories really
are, are of my mom and dad out on the, being road warriors and, oh, you know,
"Okay kids, we're going on vacation." And vacation turned out to be,
uh, six winemaker dinners and a bunch of trade visits (laughing). And, uh, um,
you know, but, you know, it's our, our way of going on family vacation was
going out to, to sell wine. And, uh, being there when, uh, my mom, uh, took
Tres Sabores on her own. And, yeah, it's been, uh, uh, a journey back to come
to, to join the family and, um, really get, get involved with both wineries.
And still doing that, I was up the other night spraying at Tres Sabores and,
uh, uh, trying to fix the tractor so it went forward and not backwards.
And,
uh, just, uh, staying involved on, on, um, on, on every level there. So it
makes, uh, Christmas pretty, uh, pretty interesting. So we, we lined
everybody's wines up between, uh, uh, the Frog's Leap wines and the Tres
Sabores wines. And, of course, my stepdad, Jon, Jon Engelskirger's got all of
his wines. And so I've got my own wines. My brother's making hard cider and,
uh, so we got, you know, 25 bottles on the counter by the time we're, uh, uh,
it's all said and done.
Doug Shafer:
Well,
um, who's the de- (laughs), who's the designated driver at those things,
anyway?
Rory Williams:
Uh,
uh, my, my two-year-old, you know, carrying on in the family tradition.
Doug Shafer:
There
you go. Oh, that sounds great. So right now your role at Frog's is what? Are
you running the vineyards?
Rory Williams:
Mostly
on the vineyard side, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Rory Williams:
So,
um, you know, keeping up with the day to day, writing the work orders, um,
really working with, uh, my mentor in the vineyards, Frank Leeds, uh, who, you
know, really brought, uh, a, a lot the kind of complete farming picture to us
in the vineyards. Um, I met his daughter, Lauren, in preschool, and so, uh,
that was another piece of the, the Frog's Leap puzzle and, uh, another long
time relationship with the family here. Um, and that was kind of my entry point
coming outta school, coming back into, uh, the family business was, um,
speaking Spanish, which was a big part of that.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm.
Rory Williams:
And,
uh, coming back into the fold. Um, you know, not really coming directly back
into the winery, but instead just getting out there. Was on the vineyard crew
for, for five years, um, pruning, suckering, leafing, um, doing everything but,
but picking. 'Cause by the time I got to picking, I started cutting my hands
too many times, um-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah,
I know that one, yeah.
Rory Williams:
...
and, uh, and helping my dad out in the vine-, in the, in the winery. And so
that's, uh, that was kind of my journey back into it, and that's taken that on
full time now.
Doug Shafer:
That's
great. So be- before we get back to that, let's, let's bounce back to
childhood. So I don't know if you remember this, but boy, I do, and I'm sure
John does. I, every once in a while it would get super cold and that pond back
at, uh, your mom's place would freeze over. And I remember-
Rory Williams:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
...
going out there a couple times and we used to play broomball. It would be
brooms and played like hockey with the soccer ball. You remember that?
Rory Williams:
I
do, I do.
Doug Shafer:
Oh
(laughs).
Rory Williams:
It
was the winter of, uh... the one I remember the best is the, it was when it
snowed on the valley floor. So this is '90 or '91, I think. Uh, one of, one of
the, you know, as I was just six years old, but, uh, yeah, the pond froze over
and, uh, all you yayhoos got together to, to play, uh, to get drunk and play
ice hockey on a pond. Which was about, as I remember, uh, about three quarters
frozen or, uh, three quarters of-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Rory Williams:
...
it was playable.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah
(laughs).
Rory Williams:
But
when the puck would go down to the other end, it was kind of you had to draw
straws as to who was gonna go get it.
Doug Shafer:
No,
I-
Rory Williams:
But
eventually somebody did fall through the ice (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Yeah, I do, good, good, it was the same. I was thinking about that this morning
going, "God, did that really happen?" 'Cause I remember that somehow
the word got out 'cause everybody's like, "Bring your kids." 'Cause,
you know, my three kids were, you know, same age as you and your brother and
sister. So, you know, you guys were all whatever, six, seven, eight, nine, but
it was a, it was a scream. Um, but, yeah, then it got kind of weird 'cause the
ice started cracking (laughing), and yeah, someone went in. A little scary, but
it was fun.
Rory Williams:
(laughs)
All, all of a sudden it's like, "Wait a second, we could die out
here."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah,
yeah, it was probably your father's idea. Thanks, John. Anyway, um-
John Williams:
(laughs)
Everyone had plenty of antifreeze (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
So
high school was, uh, where was high school?
Rory Williams:
St.
Helena Public High School. Um, all public schools here in St. Helena and, uh,
yeah, grew up a, a valley kid. Um-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Rory Williams:
Went
to school, uh, with your, uh, with your kids. Uh, I think both of 'em a little
bit younger than me, but, um, not too far off. And so I remember going over,
uh, to your guys' house, uh, growing up and hanging out by the pool.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Rory Williams:
Um,
on, on the hot days.
Doug Shafer:
Oh,
yeah, pool basketball. You guys, were you in (laughing)? Do you remember that
one? I know John did.
Rory Williams:
I
do.
Doug Shafer:
Is
it one day?
Rory Williams:
I,
I do, yeah (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Those
games got a little, little physical. I remember that. Okay (laughing). All
right, so you're growing up. So as you're getting outta high school, what are
you thinking? Are you thinking the wine business or it's like, "Man, I've
been doing this. I need to get away from this." Where, where was your head
at on this, this whole thing?
Rory Williams:
Well,
well, as you, as you probably know and, and it's, it's complicated. I always
loved the wine business. I always loved being around the vineyards, um, and
really I think more than, more than anything I knew above, uh, beyond that I
knew it was a- an extremely special place here. Uh, I was always an outdoors
kid. I was lucky to have my parents be very out-, very outgoing, very
adventurous. And so we were always hiking, always going places. Uh, my, my mom
can probably run up a mountain, um, with, with the energy she has. And so Na-
Napa's a pretty, uh, Napa's a pretty boring place if you're not into the
outdoors.
Um,
when you're a, when you're a teenager, it's not yet, uh, time to go to tasting
rooms and ta-, and taste wine. And if you're into malls and movie theaters,
it's, it's a, it's kind of a slow place. Um, but I loved it. And still love the
valley, uh, a lot. With that said, I didn't want to, uh, just kind of
immediately go right into the, uh, wine business. I had other interests, um,
loved reading, loved, uh, kind of some other academic pursuits and knew I wanted
to do something different before I came back into the wine business, if I were,
were to come back into the wine business.
Doug Shafer:
Oh,
good, good.
Rory Williams:
And,
uh, and, and knew my dad's story of having, uh, you know, bootstrap for, for
lack of a better term. It didn't seem right to just sort of, uh, jump right
into it, uh, uh, right after high school or even right after, uh, right after
college.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
So, uh, so where was college?
Rory Williams:
College
was at St. John's College in, uh, in Annapolis, Maryland. Um, I remember
(laughs), uh, signing up for school and, uh, having to describe to my brother
where Maryland was. Um, (laughing) and, uh, you know, he's kind of looking at
me like, "Wow, you chose about as far away from, from home as you could
get."
Doug Shafer:
It
is, it is, it is, actually, isn't it? It is, it is the farthest away.
Rory Williams:
You,
you know (laughs), it, it, it felt pretty far away. And, uh, you know, we'd
been back to the East Coast many times. As kids we always went back there for
Thanksgiving, um, which is always a little funny, bringing out, uh, Little
Johnny's wine that he'd been making for, for 30 years for, uh, to Thanksgiving
where nobody would dare drink it.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Rory Williams:
Um,
but it was, uh, you know, be- been back to the East Coast, but it had never had
that fu- full experience of being away. And that's what I wanted. I, I
wanted... I knew I needed to create distance and create a longing for Napa if I
were gonna come back and, and, um, be able to do my own thing.
Doug Shafer:
And
your dad mentioned you went to Cornell also. Wa- was that after St. John's?
Rory Williams:
Yeah,
so St. John's wa-, it wasn't a direct path exactly. Um, so I, um, did my first
couple years at St. John's, which, uh, for those of you that don't know, it's,
it's a, it's, it has nothing to do with wine, whatsoever. Uh, it doesn't have a
whole lot to do with anything, uh, uh, real concrete, you might say. It's a
great book school, so you, uh, kind of sit around reading books, works of
philosophy and poetry in, in the, in the original Greek. And, uh, it's this,
the whole idea is that you're trying to generate ideas, stimulate ideas, learn
how to think. Um, and I took about two years of that and I liked it, but
figured I would get my hands dirty. So I did take a, a year off from school and
worked harvest.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Rory
WIlliams
And
that ended up being pretty critical. I had, um, fallen in love with the idea of
Barolo and Barbaresco, just reading the, the World Atlas of Wine as a kid. And
so went and traveled there, did stage in Barolo. And, uh, then flipped
harvest and did stage down in, uh, Argentina in Mendoza after that. And
that was really where the whole coming into, back into the fold, uh, of the, of
the wine business really started to take some shape. Um, I didn't know Italian
when I went to Italy to, to work, uh, the harvest there. And, basically, back,
got to the end of that and, uh, realized that if I enjoyed doing this, uh,
while getting yelled at in a language I barely understood, um, then maybe this
was something I could end up doing. And it, it was where in Italy is where I
really had my first aha moment with wine.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Rory Williams:
Uh,
where I had been, um, working, worked there for about, uh, four months. And,
uh, you know, started in the summer and, uh, worked all the way through
harvest. So we get to the end of, uh, the harvest there and, uh, we have the
big blowout dinner with all the, uh, all the vineyard workers, all the cellar
workers. And, uh, had been drinking basically nothing but Arneis, Nebbiolo, um,
Barbera, and Dolcetto for, for four months. But I'd brought one bottle of
Cabernet from, uh, uh, from Frog's Leap with me just to share. And it was that
experience of having been 6,000 miles removed for so long, and then opening up
this bottle of Napa Cabernet and it was like being transported 6,000 miles back
home, uh, just instantly.
Doug Shafer:
Uh-huh.
Rory Williams:
And
it was I'd never had that. I'd grown up around, uh, Napa wine, obviously. It
had plenty of Cabernet in my life, but I'd never had that experience before.
Never been transported in that way and it required that kind of distance to
really have that revelation. And I thought, at that moment, A, it was a
beautiful thing to experience. And I thought that, that, that right there is
something worth doing. Um, it's this isn't just booze, it's not just a glass of
wine. This is something, uh, pretty special that to be able to transport. And
so that sat in my mind as I finished my coup-, uh, the last couple years at St.
John's.
Uh,
did a, uh, another stage right after St. John's before going to, uh, to
Cornell. And, uh, they still didn't have a graduate program in wine, uh, in
winemaking. So I was part of the flavor chemistry, uh, department, uh, actually
working mostly out of Geneva.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Rory Williams:
Uh,
but that was how I kind of, that was my way of getting, being a TA and, uh,
being a research assistant and getting essentially paid to, to learn chemistry,
uh, at Cornell.
Doug Shafer:
Man,
that's a great story. So that's when it, that's when it clicked after that?
Ain't that amazing. We, everybody's got a, a moment where it kind of clicks,
you, you know, whether, whether it's wine or anything you do. So you finished
up at Cornell and then, uh, so at this point you're probably be- beating a path
back to Napa 'cause is that the, is that what happened?
Rory Williams:
Yeah,
you know, it was, uh, I, at that point, I had been about 10 years on the East
Coast. And, uh, between, uh, travel and school and, uh, um, met my future wife
back there. And, uh, I was, uh, I was getting cold. You know, I was, I was
still a (laughing) California kid, but it, it was, it was the experience. I
remember, uh, being at St. John's my freshman year and it, it snowed on April
1st. It was a big blizzard year in, in-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Rory Williams:
...
Annapolis and I just, I just started crying. I, I couldn't handle it
(laughing). I, I was just, I was so, I was so soft. Um, I eventually got used
to it and be- became accustomed, but Ithaca was a whole nother, uh, dimension
of cold. And, uh, you know, eventually just kind of had to, I had to get outta
the Northeast and had to come back home. Um, my, uh, dad had offered a- an
internship, a harvest internship at Frog's Leap in 2010. And so I came back in,
uh, late summer of 2010 to, uh, to work that harvest for Frog's Leap. Um, and
then it went from there.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah,
I was, I was, I was gonna ask you about that. So, um, 'cause, you know, I'm,
I'm a veteran of a father/son working relationship. So, yeah, so did you have
to apply? Did you have to interview? I mean, you know, was he, was he tough to
work for? You know, first job, what was, what was it like in the beginning
(laughs) with you two guys?
Rory Williams:
Well,
you know, when, when my, my dad drives off every other intern, uh, you know, he
had to, had to have somebody come in and, uh, and stomp the grapes. No, it was,
um, you know, it's, as, as you know, it's this tension between wanting to,
wanting the family to join the fold and not wanting to push or pull too hard.
And, uh, wanting to make sure that there's a, that there's something there. Um,
so coming back and having done the stages before, um, having worked, um,
elsewhere, I had never actually done any, uh, formal harvest work at, at Frog's
Leap.
I
kind of had grown up in the summers tying vines out, uh, for Frank out in the
vineyard or, uh, working for our resident engineer, Brad Lusk, uh, repairing
the Red Barn in the winters and summers. But had never, uh, held down a, a
formal internship here at the winery. And, uh, you know, I'll, I'll give credit
to my dad, it was I didn't really work for him. Um, I worked for Pablo-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Rory Williams:
...
um, our, our cellar, our longtime cellar master and now winemaker. Uh, I worked
for him, I worked for the guys on the crew. And that was the way that really
worked out very well in, in 2010. And it set the kind of a template for coming
back to Frog's Leap, um, in 2012 for a full-time position. Well, part, started
as part-time, but it, it became important to not work for my dad, but to work
for everybody else who makes things click at Frog's Leap. We talk about being a
family winery, but it's, it's not so much about ownership as, as having these
kinds of generations of people who, uh, tie into the story of Frog's Leap. And
that's been extremely important to us for a long time. So I, I still feel like
I, I work for them, um, and not, I don't work for my dad. That kind of thing.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah,
I'm with you. That's, uh, that's smart. John, you're a smart father. Good job.
Don't have him work for you directly. All indirect.
John Williams:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
All
indirect. Trust, but trust me, Rory, he was, he was going behind your back
talking to Pablo and those other guy saying, "Okay, how's he doing? How's
he doing (laughing)?" Well, yeah, da- dads do that stuff, you know, that's
the way it goes. So you're, you're 20-, 2012, you're a full time at Frog's
Leap, and I think you start your own winery. You got your own brand, right?
Rory Williams:
Yeah,
started the, the year before actually I came to, uh, to, to Frog's Leap. I, uh,
after 2010, I had a little, I had to take some time off from, uh, for an
injury, um, and kind of got bored at, kind of got restless at that point and
said, "Wow, I'm go-, I'm gonna start my own winery." I had fallen in
love with this grape Charbono and thought that, that was something pretty fun.
Um, and so wa- was looking for a way to l- learn all, all of the, the bones of
the business, you might say.
Didn't
really wanna start my own Cabernet project or, and certainly wouldn't call it a
project kind of thing. Uh, and, and wanted to figure out how I could make my
own thing and make my own mistakes on my own dime. And, uh, and use that to, to
move forward in the, in the wine industry. That was pretty important to me to,
uh, to make some mistakes and learn all these different things, um, that my dad
had learned at the Taylor Wine Company that he had le- learned kind of over the
years. Um, and I knew I had to learn it fairly quickly. So starting Calder Wine
Company was my way of doing that while exploring some other fun grapes that
didn't necessarily fit into the fold with Tres Sabores or, or Frog's Leap right
away. Um, but that I knew I wanted to have my hands in.
Doug Shafer:
You're
wise beyond your years, my friend. Um, 'cause in this business, um, as your
father knows and as you now know, it's all about the details and it's, it's not
glamorous. It's n- nitty gritty and it's, and you gotta get the details covered
and you gotta get 'em done on time with the right government agency or this or
that. And, um, you know, the glory of harvest and making wine in a fermenting
tank, which is just glorious, God love it, we all do. But, um, the devil is
truly in the details. So it's good for you for, uh, taking that on and learn
it.
Because
without that background, um, you can't really truly enjoy the glamorous side of
it, which is the, um, yeah, it's harvest and fermentations. I mean, there's
nothing better. Uh, what, what flavors are you making with, with Calder? You've
got the, you said Charbono, right?
Rory Williams:
Charbono,
using some of that, uh, Riesling, uh, that, that was, uh (laughing), we kept in
the ground at all -
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
There it is, the Riesling.
Rory Williams:
You
know, all of a sudden, the Ri- Riesling pops up again.
Doug Shafer:
The
Riesling's back.
Rory Williams:
It's
funny, you know, the, the Liebfraumilch has a, has a weird tie in with
Charbono, um, just 'cause, dad, when you, uh, after you started making
Leapfrogmilch, uh, Leapfrogmilch, word got out that there was somebody in the
valley buying Riesling. Um, and so all of a sudden you started getting calls
left and right from, uh, people who had Riesling. And I remember you had a,
there was a, a guy on Manly Lane who had four acres of (laughing), uh, uh, of
Riesling and say, "Well, you know, I heard you're buying Riesling. Can
you, would you take some of this?" And, uh, I remember you, you bought
that Riesling and then e- eventually helped, uh, him find a, find a buyer. Um,
remind me of the guy's name, dad?
John Williams:
Ken,
Ken and Ellen McGill, yeah (laughing).
Rory Williams:
Ken
and Ellen McGill (laughing). Um, you know, an old grower, it's no longer
Riesling, um, but, you know, that story played out in a funny way. Where years
after you stopped buying, uh, Riesling from, uh, from Ken McGill, you got a
call from Ken McGill saying, "Hey, John, you know, I've got all this, uh,
got all this old wine that I've got stored downstairs. And, uh, I don't want my
kids to have it. And I don't, you know, the wife and I don't drink very much,
very much anymore. So, uh, would you mind coming down and see if you wanna buy
it?" And ended up being about 10 cases of Inglenook and Charles Krug from
the '50s and '60s-
Doug Shafer:
Oh
my gosh.
Rory Williams:
...
just completely, completely priceless wines really, um, certainly nowadays. And
in that stash was a bunch of old Inglenook Charbono from the '60s. A grape that
when we popped open that bottle, we had never heard of the grape before. Um, it
was totally unknown to us and we thought, "Well, how bad could it be?"
And it was if I had to point out a second aha moment, uh, that, that would be
it. That was, uh, uh, a totally ethereal magical bottle of '61 Inglenook
Charbono that, uh, kind of inspired Calder to come to be.
Um,
Pablo had some contacts, uh, with Ignacio, the winemaker at the, uh, now-gone Summers
Estate up in Calistoga that had some Charbono. Um, and it caused us to put, put
the breaks on about an acre of Cabernet and it became an acre of Charbono
instead at Rossi.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Rory Williams:
So
there's some, there's some Charbono planted at Rossi now (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
That's
cool. So I've got a question for each of you guys. So you guys have been
working together over 10 years. You know, you know, probably longer than that.
Obviously, it's going really well. Two things for each of you guys, what are
the cha-, what, what have been the challenges in working together and what have
been the joys? Rory, you go first, challenges and joys.
Rory Williams:
My
dad and I are pretty, pretty simpatico, so, so we're not, um, butting heads all
the time. And I guess that's a, maybe a pre- prerequisite, for working so
closely together. The, the challenges of the, the fact that (laughs) there,
there's kind of no way of not taking e- everything personally (laughing). If,
if, uh, if you have a disagreement, but really it- it's more about, um, trying
to keep the winery going. And, and, uh, that challenge is sort of when we face
together, keeping business strong, keeping people happy, um, and realizing
that, uh, the wine business is, is all consuming.
It's,
uh, there's no, there- there's never any moment where you say, "Okay,
well, I'm done for the day." There is no clock out time. You're, you know,
quite apart from literally waking up at 2:00 AM for frost. There's the, uh, the
knowledge that I have of, of my parents constantly working, constantly striving
to, to make the winery work and make it work for everybody here. And, uh, I've
now joined in that with, with my dad. It's, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm.
Rory Williams:
...
it's lovely. It's, that's challenging and, um, means that you have to really
find your (laughs), find your, and plan your escapes, uh, just for a, for a moment's
rest. But it's, it's an incredible privilege on my part to do that. And I know
that at, at the same time. And so that's kind of the, the main joy of it is, is
realizing-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Rory Williams:
...
that it is, it is something special. That challenge is not something that, um,
you should or can take for granted. Um, to have this opportunity to, having
worked in the vineyards. I knew that, that was a special opportunity in itself.
Um, and being able to, to be a part of that release you feel around harvest of
all the tension, of the growing season and, uh, the bottling and supplies and
taxes and all these things that wrap up into the year. And then that first load
of grapes comes in on, on the crush pad, the first Sauvignon Blanc of the
season. And, uh, your family's there. Um, that's a pretty sweet feeling. Uh,
that's, that's hard to beat.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Thank you. That was beautiful. Kind of (laughs) brings back memories of working
with my dad. Oh, all right, so Papa John, how about you, challenges and joys?
John Williams:
(laughs)
Well, I think probably you can appreciate more than anyone, uh, Doug, or as
much as anyone that there's no, uh, manual for how this all plays out, uh, how
you keep a family winery family. And that, that's, uh, every story's a little
bit unique. And, uh, um, you know, it is a, a, uh... Rory's got a brother and a
sister and, uh, you know, I enjoyed being married so much, I got married a
second time. And, uh, you know (laughs), uh, that- that's part of our family as
well. And so, um, being cognizant of, of all that, how that all comes together,
there are, uh, um, the...
It's
a constant challenge to think about how to move that forward and make it all
work and, and, uh, make sure everyone has a, feels like they're part of the, part
of the process. So that is an ongoing, uh, challenge here. So the mechanics of
that, of course, the estate planning and all that, that has to be thoughtful,
uh, thoughtfully building a team, uh, at the winery that supports us. Uh, so
it's a, it's a constant battle and certainly one that's hardly ever done. But
with that comes so many joys, uh, as Rory, uh, talked about. Uh, I think for me
the big part of this is, you know, it's, it's hard for an old farmer and an old
winemaker to, um, give up any control at all.
You,
you fought your whole life to get that control of your own vineyards and your
own wine making and your own equipment. And, all of a sudden, to, uh, invite
someone else, uh, to even a family member to come in, you know, every farmer
wants his, uh, a son to take over the farm, but none of 'em want to give up any
control of the farm (laughing). And so that's a, that's a story-
Doug Shafer:
That's
true.
...
as old as farming itself. And so, but I think, uh, the, the key to that is, is
built on respect. And so Rory's put in the hard work to, uh, gain my respect.
And not only in the, in the vineyards, but in the winemaking. Um, and, uh, that
certainly helps, uh, tremendously. We're not a hobby winery. We, and we have,
um, we have employees and (laughs) we have vineyards to tend. We have
businesses to, uh, run and, uh, it, uh, it's, it's a lot. And, um, uh, we just,
uh... Uh, well, you know, their old, old story about the farmer who won the
lottery and they kept what, you know, what are you gonna do with all the money?
And I think his answer was, "We'll just keep on farming till it's all gone
(laughing)." I think that's kind of how we feel about the - (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Oh,
oh, I like that one. Oh, thanks, man. Um, so tell us where folks can find both
Frog's Leap and Calder Wines? Is there a website? What's, what can folks, how
can people find your guys' wines?
Rory Williams:
Well,
we, we did decide it would be smart to invest in a website at, at, at one point
so-
John Williams:
Or
someone did, I'm not sure (laughing).
Rory Williams:
Oh,
it's this new thing, the whole new-fangled internet thing. Um, yeah, so
frogsleap.com and calderwine.com. Um, I'd be reminiscent not mentioning mom's
place, tressabores.com. But it's, uh, um, yeah, that's, that's where you find
us.
Doug Shafer:
Great,
great news. All right, you guys. Hey, again, thank you both for taking the
time. Rory, especially you, you need to go take a nap. You, you just sneak out
back and sleep in your truck. It's the best, best place to take a nap
(laughing). And, uh, so good to talk to both of you guys, hear your stories.
Thanks for sharing, um, special time. So be good, and I'll see you out there,
okay?
John Williams:
Thanks
Doug, this has been a blast.
Doug Shafer:
All
right guys.
Rory Williams:
Thanks,
Doug.
Doug Shafer:
All
right, have a good day. See you.
Rory Williams:
All
right, bye.