Doug
Hey, everybody, Doug Shafer. Welcome to another episode of The Taste. today we've got a good neighbor friend of mine in Saint Helena. Our winemaking paths run parallel, but we don't intersect as often as they should. He's a busy guy, always moving his has made and continues to make fantastic wines here. Welcome, Dave Phinney. Dave, how are you doing?
Dave
Good, Doug. Thanks, thanks for having me.
Doug
All right, really appreciate you being here. It's great to have you on the podcast. We've got a lot to cover from The Prisoner, all to all the projects you're working on today. But before we get into that, I'd like to start way back at the beginning. where did you come from? Where were you born? Where did you grew up as a kid? All that stuff.
Dave
Oh, boy. It's, it's a little convoluted, but, not technically. I was actually born in Gilroy, California, and, lived there for about a week. My grandparents, were there and some uncles and aunts and then was relocated to West L.A., where I spent all my formative years, if you will.
But both my parents were professors and would sabbatical in Bristol, England. So we spent, year off and on living in Bristol, England, and traveling a lot in Europe and the rest of the world, actually, my parents were still are big travelers. So, kind of grew up all over, in a sense. But until I was 13, home base was West L.A., and then, in, eighth grade, I actually went to boarding school in Squaw Valley and Lake Tahoe.
I think it's now called Palisades. So I have that sort of caveat in there because my, my formative years, high school years were spent, up in, in Squaw Valley, in Tahoe and, and so kind of consider that a big part of, of, of how and where I grew up. And yeah, then that kind of led to, university where I, went to, University of New Orleans my freshman year, which is the LSU campus in New Orleans, just for no good reason except to go see what New Orleans was like, transferred, transferred from there to the University of Arizona.
And, during that period of time, was studying political science and interning for, the public defender's office as well as a congressman, and I was studying political science with a plan of going to law school.
And about three years in, realized I didn't want to be an attorney. And I didn't want to be involved in politics. And, uh-oh, you know, what am I going to be when I grow up? I'm a junior, and that's kind of where, wine entered into, my world, so to speak.
Doug
Okay. So I'm going to back up from it.
Doug
So first of all, I didn't know about the Squaw… Palisades, the Tahoe experience. So you've got to be a skier or you had to be high school up in Tahoe. Where you skiing?
Dave
Yeah. So I was very fortunate. My parents actually met skiing. So skiing was always a big part of our lives growing up. And that's why I asked to go to boarding school and in Tahoe and, and, yeah, I spent my first year, what we call chasing gates. So racing. And then the last three years was, skiing, moguls for the Squaw Valley freestyle team back in the day.
Doug
Oh, man. You still ski a lot. You have time?
Dave
Yeah, not as much as I used to. And also, I've. I've blew out both ACLs over the years and have had allograft and actually need to get a double knee replacement.
Been kind of putting it off, but I can still get out there and and for me, it's about getting up there in the, in the, in the clean air with the kids and riding the chairlift and oh yeah, thrilled to be up there when I can be.
Doug
Listen, when you want to do the double knees, talk to me. I did six years ago. Six years ago, and changed my life. All of a sudden, I can run down stairs and all of a sudden I can ski again. That's that's great.
Dave
That's. That's all I've heard. It's good stuff.
Doug
It's great. I mean, no bumps, you know, bumps are gone, but it's just now it's just groomers and go fast.
Dave
So it's I love it.
Doug
So but so you're bouncing around, activities and sports and high school is mostly skiing or were you ever doing any organized stuff?
Dave
No. It was pretty, pretty centered on skiing. You know, that's what the school was for. And, you know, we went to school half day and trained the other half of the day. So that was pretty much our lives.
Doug
I love it. And, just real quickly, how about wine at home with your folks? Was that when you were growing up?
Dave
Not really. I mean, my neither. My parents didn’t drink much, and my dad was more of a single malt, Scotch drinker. Even when he did drink one of his, collaborators. Guy named professor in, Bristol, Jake McMillan is Scottish. And so he kind of got him into the single malts. So there was always a, in the closet, a array of a dozen or so, you know, single malts that my dad would have, you know, 1 or 2 every once in a while. And then my mom, would occasionally drink some, if you remember, the Almaden, the jug Almaden, Chablis or whatever?
Doug
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Dave
Yeah, I know. It was, I didn't grow up in and around wine or grapes, so I didn't have that, that part of, the business, it was definitely something that I sort of stumbled into, like, like many other people.
Doug
Right. Yeah. My folks, they weren't drinking wine was, it was bourbon and beer in my house for sure.
Dave
Yeah, yeah.
Doug
I think the only way I would have been Mateus, maybe. And that was about it. Yeah. Yeah. so, hey, you mentioned University of Arizona in Tucson. So, you we've got, another fun fact I taught I taught junior high school in Tucson for a couple of years before I got into wine. Yeah.
Dave
Oh, my God, I didn't know that.
Doug
Yeah, I taught up at, Orin Grove Junior High up at the end of Campbell. well, yeah, in the foothills. Yeah. And. But -
Dave
Oh, you'll love this. One of my first jobs, if you will, in the wine or grape business was, got a, internship with a professor in the AG department. I was part of a group. He had just gotten a grant, and we planted, one-acre experimental block on the corner of River and Campbell.
Doug
That's the one you got the, I used to, I saw that I saw that vineyard. I remember there because I had my. Yeah. I remember that corner. I hope we're not boring the people out there, but this is kind of fun. That church, Saint Phillips of the Hills, was right at the same corner.
Dave
Yeah, and there was some fancy restaurant that we could. If we ever had enough money, we would take dates to across the street, and I can't remember the name of it anymore, but, yeah.
Doug
Well, I, I got I went down there kind of sight unseen, gotten an apartment right across the street from that church. I called my folks and I said, well, I found a place. It's on the corner of River and Campbell Cross was a church. My mom goes church across the street, I go, right? Yeah. Saint Phillips of the Hill. She goes, yeah, that's where your dad and I were married.
Dave
Oh, my God, that's so. Wow.
Doug
That was pretty cool. Were you, in fact, I was behind some little store called a Rum Runner.
Dave
Oh, no, I worked there.
Doug
You worked at the Rum Runner?
Dave
I worked for Tom and Janet there.
Doug
Oh, my God. Oh, yeah, I didn't know that. Okay, well, all right, there's our two. That's our show for today, folks. The Tucson wrap up.
Dave
There you go.
Doug
So you're in Tucson or you're you're U of A finishing up. You're helping plant the vineyard. Is that where the wine thing actually -
Dave
That happened after, no, that was subsequent to when I figured out what I didn't want to do. Okay. I was actually getting back skiing and skiing up in at Whistler in BC, and a buddy of mine called, and they needed a another roommate for a study abroad program in Florence, Italy.
And so I was like, sure, why not? So I went out to Florence, Italy, for a semester, and my roommate there was a guy named Tom Traverso, old friend of mine. You know, we were, fraternity brothers, and his family was in the business and is in the business, Traversos’.
Doug
Right.
Dave
In Sonoma. And Tom's dad, Bill, is one of the preeminent, wine educators in America, actually. So, Tom, you know, kind of got me into wine. And so most days we weren't traveling. After we were done with our studies, we would go to the local sort of super marché.
Doug
Right?
Dave
We'd get three magnums of red wine and we would go back to our room and, we would open the wines and, and Tom would talk us through them and say, okay, this is Sangiovese here. This is, you know, Montepulciano and and, you know, to have wine demystified by a contemporary, you know, using basically four letter words if necessary.
Doug
Right?
Dave
You know, one was was never because I'd had no exposure to it, you know, it was my, my first, you know, exposure to wine was in a very sort of literally collegiate, but also a very sort of opening and or open way. And the pretense was never there. And I look back on that now and just realize that I probably gained a decade of not of just not having to kind of sift through all that, you know, stuff that back in the day it was, you know, it's much different. That was almost 30 years ago. It was just a different world back then.
And and there was a bit of snobbery around wine. And so it was still, you know, you know, kind of this mystical thing that, you know, only certain people could make and etc., etc. and then, having that as my first sort of entree into it, really, I realized how important that was. Now, and yeah, after that six-month period, we, we had to go back and finish up our, our time in, Tucson, Tucson and, we were sort of sitting around, a bunch of us lamenting, you know, God, we got to go back to the real world.
And, you know, what are you going to do when you graduate? And Tom just looked at me and he said, you know, you seem to really enjoy drinking wine, but you're also seem to be very interested in, you know, grapes and wine. We thought about the wine business, and that's kind of when the, the light bulb went off.
And that's when I went back to Tucson, got the internship and helped plant that vineyard at River and Campbell, and then also got a job at the Rum Runner. Just trying to immerse myself any way I could in a, you know, everything in anything wine and and grapes. And that's what I was able to do. so yeah, that was kind of how I my first foray into the, into the wine business was in.
Doug
Wow. I wondered if I ever called on you went or I, I used to go back and call the Rum Runner. You were probably gone by then.
Dave
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And they wouldn't. You wouldn't be calling on me. I was like, the lowest guy on the. Oh, yeah.
Doug
No, no. that's how you start out. All right. Well, cool. So that's how it kicked in. And then, somehow you got to the Napa Valley. How how'd that happen?
Dave
Well, right when I was, you know, at that same time I was getting closer to graduation, so compiled my resume, sent it out to 50 different wineries. I had that that red Wine Spectator book was back in the day. It was like a Bible, and it had all the wineries. I think it was a California wine guide or something, and I, I selected 50 different Cabernet, mainly vineyards or wineries in the Napa Valley, and sent my resume out to every single one of them and got one response from Mondavi. And, I went up to interview for it when it was called back then, a temporary harvest worker, and it's when they were redoing the ToKalon room.
So I actually interviewed in a suit and tie was the last interview of the day in a in a, like a, construction trailer, because they were doing work and it was a guy named Bob Paddock and Jerry Egan and, you know, they literally, like, laughed at me when I came in because as a kid, if you're a U.S. citizen and you can pass a drug test and an a very rudimentary math test, you're you're basically hired.
And so, because I was the last interview the day that we spent about 45 minutes talking and Bob specifically said, hey, you know, it looks like you want to kind of see a little or as much of everything as you can and kind of get dirty. I said, absolutely. And he suggested that I work for him because he was the foreman down at their Carneros facility that is actually no longer there. It was off of, Duhig Road.
Doug
Right.
Dave
I mean, and, yeah, great spot. And and he said, the only problem is that all the day shifts are taken and see. This was the harvest in 1997. He said, you'll you'll have to work the night shift. And I said, well, hey, if that's what you're telling me to do, that's what I'll do.
So I worked the 330 to 1:00 am and you know, only white guy on an all Mexican crew after about a, I don't know, a week or so, they realized that I was not going to just be the lazy white boy, and they gave me a nickname and brought me in and taught me a lot of the, you know, stuff that you know, we still use to this day, you know, dragging hose is dragging hoses.
I learned how to operate a forklift. Probably the most important thing I learned. And, and then, you know, realize that that first harvest, you know, if I'm going to work this hard, both mentally and physically, eventually I want to do it for myself. So that was ‘97, 1998 is when I started Orin Swift. Okay.
And Orin is a combination. Orin is my dad's middle name, and Swift is my mother's maiden name, which is now her middle name as well as my middle name. So that's where the name of Orin Swift comes from. And but, two tons of Zinfandel in 1998, which, you know, was a much different harvest from 1997. Right? I was like, yeah, this is so fun. And everybody's in love. And, you know, the grapes came in super metered and there was never any rain. And then 98 was like, oh, wow.
Doug
Oh, wow. Especially it an especially wet Zinfandel. That can be a challenge.
Dave
Yeah, that was a big challenge.
Doug
Oh man.
Dave
Which was great because I got my you know.
Doug
Yeah.
Dave
Not to be too, foulmouthed. But, you know, I got my ass handed to me because there's is, you know, there's only so much you can do in a year like that. And there's what I what I found out very quickly is there's sort of no alchemy or silver bullet or anything like that. And, and it all starts in the vineyard and, and once you get it in the barn, there's only so much you can do.
And it was just a great, great learning lesson. And I'm glad that it was my first commercial harvest because I ended up not releasing anything. I was able to bulk out my five barrels is in to Joel Peterson over at Ravenswood, and I can't now, looking back, I can't believe they sent a truck over for five barrels at 15 bucks a gallon because everybody just needed wine back then, and and, I made my kind of made my money back and just kept punching and.
Doug
Yeah.
Dave
And then 1999 was a much better year. And, and then in 2000, which was again, kind of a tough year, similar to 98, a little bit wet, that's when we started Prisoner. and that was a kind of a happy accident. Had a, had a Zinfandel lot that was stuck and wouldn't go dry, but now looking back, most people would have considered it dry was like 4g/l.
And then had a bunch of small lots. I didn't know what I was going to do with, and then had a Cabernet lot that was good, but not great. So I knew I was not going to bottle that, you know, as a varietal and true story. I threw it all together to really deal with the residual sugar issue, threw it in a tank or put a bench trial together. And I was like, wow, that's pretty good. Had it run the took it up to ETS had the -
Doug
right.
Dave
- analysis run. And it was the numbers were good and threw it in a tank. I'll never forget it was right before 4th of July. I threw it into a tank, went up for 4th of July, came back and it had whatever residual sugar was left. It was fermented out over the weekend, which is insane.
Doug
That is kind of crazy. Wow.
Dave
Now it was like dry-dry.
Doug
Right.
Dave
And, that became the first that was all the wine I made and vintage 2000. And that became the first Prisoner.
Doug
All right. Now, you got to be kidding me. So this Prisoner, which, you know, as we'll talk about in a minute, you know, became incredibly popular and famous and successful. So it wasn't some calculated blending. It was just like, well, I got a little of this and a little of that. I'm just going to throw it all together and bingo. So -
Dave
Correct.
Doug
I think, Dave, I think you got come up with a better story. I can help you with that. You know, I mean, you know, I, I there was a vision, you know, the sun was setting and, you know, I, something like that.
Dave
Well, the, the I say the good news, though, is that that was that was like the, you know, luck will get you so far. Right. So that was the lucky part of it. And then it then there was and thank God now I'd had a few vintages under my belt. I'd worked with other winemakers, you know, I'd seen enough.
But I also knew, okay, we've got something here now, if because I didn't know if we were going to repeat it, I didn't know if that was going to be a one-off. I had no idea. But, you know, it was it was received well. And that was like the, the kind of the best pressure you can have is.
All right. Now you got to figure out, okay, this is the style we've established. And it's something that we've stuck with forever now is once you establish a style, you know, you have to be true to that style. And our only job, year in, year out is to improve upon that style. And so then it became, okay, this isn't there's as you know, there is no recipe for a blend like that or any blend for that matter.
So then it's like, okay, how do we recreate this as best we can year in, year out and just improve upon it? So that that was like a, again, great pressure to have and, and and that's what we tried to do until and with that particular brand, until I sold it in, 2009. So, you know, whatever, eight years later, basically. And the crazy thing is, and you'll appreciate this, as we started with 385 cases and vintage 2000, and when I sold the brand in 2009 was end of 2008, early 2009, it was at 85,000 cases. So that kind of growth, I mean it left a mark.
Doug
Wow. I bet you I can't even, you know, I can't even imagine making 85,000 cases of wine. That's incredible. I'm I've been listening to it's great. I mean, I'm thinking about the vintages because we talked about 90, 98. So 97 was a classic, gorgeous year here, you know, great ripeness. 98 to those who don't know, it was cool, chilly. We had rain we had to deal with, you know, grapes not getting ripe. You had some mold issues. It was a real challenge as Dave mentioned.
And then 99 was another gorgeous year, you know, great ripeness. And then 2000 was a challenge. So, you know, we always used to say every year is a vintage year in California. You know, not so for Napa Valley. I mean, it's so you had all those early experiences dealing with that stuff, and then you work on that, that brand and the blend.
And you're right, I'm with you 100%. You got to make it consistent, you know, so the consumer knows what they're getting when they buy the next one. That's really important. Yeah. Yep. Before we leave Prisoner, tell me about the label, because I know there's a story there because.
Dave
Yeah. No, it's it's it's, another not so, I should come up with a better story, but I was, as I mentioned, growing up, before my mother got her PhD, she got her, MFA or Master of Fine Arts at UCLA.
And then my grandfather was an archeologist and was a professor at Princeton. So I'd say all that because growing up, when we were living in England and we were traveling over Europe, and to this day, if I'm if I hang out with my, my mother specifically, we almost always go to a museum and and whether it's an art museum or natural history museum, whatever it is, there's always some component.
But when we were kids growing up, it was always in the morning. Most days we would go to a museum in whatever city we were in, and then in the afternoon we would, you know, it's up to me and my brother. We would get to choose an adventure kind of a thing.
Doug
Right.
Dave
So just the from the osmosis of just being dragged around, you know, to museum after museum as a kid, I just kind of said, look, if you can't beat them, join them. And my mom was great about, you know, this is, you know, guidebook time. So she would like, open up the guidebook and read about tell us. It was almost like every piece of art had a story. And she was she's a natural educator. So it was it was really cool. And and so I kind of you know, took to it a little bit.
My brother, who's a computer nerd, I like to joke about, he, he, he could care less. But, so when I was, on my 13th birthday, actually, that that was a gift the Prisoner, the Goya etching was a gift for my parents, for my birthday. And that's the actual size of the label is the etching.
So my brother, who did a little stint as a graphic designer, he helped put the sort of sunset in the background, and it was called The Prisoner. I mean, the piece of art was actually it's called The Little Prisoner or The Prisoner, depending on who you who you ask. Right. So we had a kind of a name built in and, the label, you know, because of the age of it, it was it was public domain.
I mean, I know that now, back then, I didn't know anything about intellectual property. And I was like, look, if I get caught, I just, you know, I guess it's a sorry kind of a thing, but, but no, and that's, that's been the label ever since. So, and, it was the first time that we had our original Orin Swift labels were very traditional, very conservative. And once we sort of got the the, you know, had the, the acceptance of that, you know, sort of more avant garde style label.
Doug
Right.
Dave
We, we really kind of ran with it.
Doug
Well, I'm with you and that so one question I had. So as The Prisoner is getting gaining popularity and you're increasing production right and left, was that the only wine that Orin Swift was making or did you make another varietals?
Dave
Two is that we we're making other varietals, okay. And all of which are in still in in in the current production. So -
Doug
Okay.
Dave
The real two that we're, we were making alongside were Mercury Head, which is our flagship Cabernet. and then Papillon on which is a Bordeaux style blend, and Veladora, which is a small production Napa Valley Sauvignon Blanc. And then right. Yeah, that was pretty much what we were making up until the sale.
Doug
Okay.
Dave
And, and then post-sale’s when we started expanding the, the now what kind of what we were left with, so to speak, which was everything except Prisoner and Saldo.
Doug
So The Prisoner, you basically kind of carved that out and sold that separate brand, if you will. Got it. Got it.
Dave
Exactly.
Doug
All right. Cool. Thank you for that. And then meanwhile, you start. You just don't quit, I love it. You started something called Locations. I think 2008, something like that. Tell me about that.
Dave
Yeah. So that was kind of when I was we, we also have a winery in the southeast of France, down actually near the Spanish border on the Mediterranean side.
A little town called Maury. The winery is called Department 66 and, mainly old vine Grenache. And, and when I was starting to spend a lot of time there, I mean, I still do, but, at that it was at the same time that it was like the housing crisis, ’08, ’09, was kind of coming to an end, but at the same time, there was a bit of a wine crisis in Europe.
And a lot of the especially in France, a lot of the the consumption was going down and a lot of the wine was actually being converted into ethanol. And it was just it was a very tough time.
Doug
Right.
Dave
And I was lamenting that with a buddy of mine, Richard Case, who's our winemaker down there and one of my best friends, and I remember I was sitting at the it's a Sheraton Hotel at Charles de Gaulle Airport, basically the most soulless hotel in the world.
And I was about to go in and, I was talking to Richard on the phone, and we were talking about that, this, this, this phenomenon that was going on in France. And I said, you know, what's crazy is some of that wine that's just being essentially destroyed or turned into ethanol. There's got to be some good wines in there that because, you know, in France, if it's not appellated, if it's not Bordeaux, Burgundy, Cotes du Rhone, you know, it just instantly becomes very, you know, the value goes way down though, right?
That doesn't always have to do with the quality. And so that's again when the sort of light bulb went off and, and on a long plane ride home and subsequent plane rides, I just kept thinking about, well, what could you do of if you had sort of no rules, no appellation? I mean, it started out as what could you do if you just looked at all those wines and what would be available, and what kind of wine could you make with sort of no rules and no appellation?
Then it became, alright, well, have you just incorporate the whole country or region and then would have it then it became a what have you had no vintage restriction either. So basically what if you could make the best wine you can make, you know, with no rules and that's, that's what happened with Locations. So started with France. And then actually Spain was the first that we bottled and released. But that was kind of by accident. But the first three, what we call the big three were we're we're sort of obvious Spain, France and Italy.
And then we did, Argentina and Corsica. We did separately as a Vermentino. We ended up making a Portuguese red, then a California red. Washington, Oregon, Texas. And part of those were because there was an opportunity and, well, there was always it was, you know, wine always comes first. But it was also to establish that family of trademarks, because what we didn't want to do is do like France. And then someone could do Italy, you know, because it's just a country code sticker. So we wanted to that's why we came out with three all at the same time that first year with France, Spain and Italy.
And then quickly to us did California, Washington, Oregon, Texas was just kind of a fun one because we have a, a friend, Kim McPherson, in Lubbock, who's an amazing guy and, an amazing winemaker. And, and I was, I was, I was so we did not expect to be making wine in Texas, but they actually grow some amazing grapes.
Doug
Kim, I, I went to Davis with Kim. In fact, he's,
Dave
Oh yeah?
Doug
He's been on this podcast. And let me tell you, you know, he walks into a room and it's just like, it's going to be a good time. It's just a lot. Yeah, he's the best. He's the best. So I had to throw that one in there.
Doug
Well, no, that's great. So you got all locations going on. And so The Prisoner you see sold to Huneeus in 2010. I think if I got my numbers right.
Dave
Yeah, it was like in the eight and in 2008, early 2009, depending on like when the actual papers were signed, I can't remember.
Doug
Okay. And then, time goes on and Orin Swift it. I think you sold that to Gallo in 2016. What what was that story?
Dave
That's correct. Yeah. Yeah, that was just another I mean, we it's kind of similar to Prisoner in the sense that, like, there was no plan to sell any brand. I didn't get into the business to do that. I didn't even really know it was done.
And then in the early days of Prisoner, I can't remember who first approached us about selling Prisoner. And I was like, you know, I didn't know that was a thing. And so we kind of went, you know, did the process and ended up selling to Huneeus. And I was like, oh, that's, you know, interesting. Whatever. You know, it was it was a good day.
And quite frankly. Well, you know, my kids, I yeah, very young kids at the time and, and also realized that, you know, it's it sounds a lot better to say we went from 385 cases to 85,000 cases. But, you know, that started with like, just me. And then it was like, you know, a couple other people were helping and that kind of growth. It like I said, it leaves a mark. And and there's not a lot of, time available for anything else.
And so part of the motivation to do that deal was just to kind of get my life back and be a husband and a dad, frankly. So it's very lucky that it happened when it did, because, you know, you it would have been hard to sustain both.
And, and I learned the lesson. So when we started to grow Orin Swift and I had a great team. I mean I always I've always had a great team and but the team was expanding and, and we kind of knew we, you know, gone through our first rodeo, etc..
Doug
Right.
Dave
And very similar where it wasn't Gallo that first approached us, but it was another one of the strategics, some very nice people that we didn't end up doing the deal with. But it was it was similar. We kind of someone started tapping our shoulder and. Right. That led to eventually to what I very much consider a partnership with Gallo, even though technically it was a sale and they do on the brand. But, you know, that was 2016. I signed on for a five year, you know, consulting agreement, which on a handshake turned into seven years. And now, as of last January, we just re-signed for another five years.
Doug
Oh, good.
Dave
And I just talked to to Joe C Gallo this morning. And, you know, I'm, I, I'm feel very, sort of proud and honored to be, not only associated with but working with, with the Gallo family literally as well as the extended family.
I just I could not be happier. They are an amazing group, you know, from top down and really allow me to, you know, get back into the fun part of winemaking and, and not have to deal with a lot of the, some of the day to day minutia, which, you know, we all get caught up in and oh, yeah, they did they they put me on the road a little more than I was used to.
And that was something that was new to me. They, they, they, they know how to do that. But, no, it's just been amazing and and it's really allowed, I mean, you can see the proliferation of brands since, since the purchase. It's just because I had more head space to. Oh, yeah. The more and more.
Doug
Yeah, the lineup's great. So yeah. So it's, you get to do the fun stuff, you get to be in the vineyards, make the wine. Yeah, you got to go on the road a little bit, but that's, that's always kind of fun. But you, you've gotten rid of all the, the other stuff which can really wear you down. I can relate to that.
Yeah. Well, nice. And you've got access to some really good vineyards. Probably, too, I bet.
Dave
Yeah, I know it was. It was kind of, I mean, I sort of, I, I sort of knew a little bit about what they had or didn't have, but when the, the entire portfolio opened, it was like, oh my god.
And then, you know, within a couple of years maybe I can't remember exactly the timing, but it was in the second or third year is when, they purchased Stagecoach and, and even before that purchase Orin Swift, we were the number one buyer of grapes from Stagecoach. And so when, and that's another story, that I sort of I don't know what I'm allowed to talk or not talk about, but I was somewhat involved with that and very proud to be involved with that, because Jan Krupp was a good friend and of course, the Gallos.
But, to see that and, and know how much of a win win that was for everybody and then have access to a vineyard that we were already, you know, sort of heavily invested in, so to speak, was pretty amazing. And, and, yeah. As you know, having availability for to fruit on, you know, any given year and you know, it's farming so there's ups and downs, right.
To know that, you know, that's never going to really be an issue is, is is nice. And also know that, you know, we're going to have the farmers there the highest farming standards. You know that we always insist on with outside growers. But with Gallo and what we call GBI and and there's, you know, internal growing machine, if you will.
You know it's just been amazing because we get you know, we get treated, you know, like everybody else in the family, so to speak, of other winemakers in the Gallo, system. And, you know, we asked for a few more things, probably, but, you know, it's, it's nice to have that, to have that control, so to speak.
Doug
That's great. Real quickly, Stagecoach Vineyard, to those who don't know, it's, gosh, it's at 300 acre Dave, probably.
Dave
Oh, God. I think it's like 650.
Doug
650 600 acres, at least down on the in the southeast kind of hill slash mountains of Napa County, Napa Valley. And it's a fantastic vineyard. And, Gallo purchased it. You know, when Dave mentioned and, having that control, that much great fruit is, pretty important long term.
So that's what Stagecoach is all about. So moving on, Dave, what about moving away from wine and moving into spirits? I'm thinking there's probably something to do with your dad being a single malt guy. Tell me, tell me about Savage and Cook. What's, what's going on with that?
Dave
Yeah. So that was a another sort of happy accident. I was I was like 15 years ago. I had a couple distributors, one in, California and one in Colorado, and asking about, hey, when are you going to get into brown spirits specifically, you know, whiskey and bourbon and rye? And I said, well, you know, I'm a wine guy. Why would I do that? And they both said, you know, I like to drink bourbon, but I'm not.
You know, that's not I'm not trained to do that. And they both, you know, said, well, because we can all make a lot of money, you know, if, if you know me, you know me at all. That's like a box that we do eventually check. But there's got to be more sort of there-there to do that. And so what happened was I was my my curiosity is definitely piqued.
So, I started doing, you know, my little research, if you will, and, and discovered very quickly how important the water is to, you know, spirits. So we had purchased a piece of property up in Alexander Valley. Originally we were going to plant a vineyard. It didn't work out, but we had this amazing set of different springs there.
It's up off a Geysers Road, and one of the springs in particular, you know, still produces like, undeveloped produces 40 gallons per minute. And it just goes down the road. I mean, it it makes you sick. I mean, it's just watching this water just, you know, basically evaporate. And we've been trying to figure out what to do with it.
So, you know, first thing we did, I like to say there was sort of three dominoes to fall. The first was the water. So we got a sample the water, cleaned it up, did a water tasting which you've never done a water tasting. I highly recommend it. It's kind of fun. And and not all water is created equally.
So, you know, water can taste very differently. And it's also one of the very few times there's about I think there was eight of us and ten waters, and it was unanimously we blind tasted the, the water. And actually we all chose our water. So that very rarely, as you know, Doug, that doesn't usually happen. So that was like all right.
And then we, you know, ran the tests on the mineral content and chemical composition. And it was, you know, would accommodate titrating spirits. So we were we were good there. So it's like, okay, check that box or that domino to fall was water. The second one was, what do we take a more winemaking approach to it and we grow our own grains.
So we have a friend out in winters, Bruce Rominger. He agreed to grow some grains for us. And specifically, what have we chose like non-GMO - I've got nothing against GMOs, but like, you know, some old heirloom varietal corn varietals which have cool names, like, in our case, the Bloody Butcher and Howling Mob. And, and we actually just released those bottled in bond, versions like two weeks ago, which we're very excited about.
But, so it was like, okay, like that, that was the other sort of domino to fall. And then the third was what have we? As I mentioned, my dad would drink single malt. And I remember like seeing some of those single malts were aged in like sherry or port barrels. And I mean, I sort of had a recollection of that, but also had read about it and I said, well, what have we finished?
Or, you know, some of our spirits in our once filled wine barrels? And that was the hardest part, because I said, look, but this can't be a gimmick. This can't be like, oh, we're in the wine business. So we're going to like, do this to sell spirits, right? And at the time, we were, I think, one of two people doing that anywhere, in the States and the good news was we knew the provenance of the barrels, etc.
But what we had to figure out was a doesn't make it better and at what level and what aging, you know, what level and time of aging and right. What we came to find out was it's about plus or minus, I would say it averages about three months, and it's about 30% of the total volume of any production.
So it's it's a lot less than you would think. But it does make a difference. And it helps a lot with the mid palate and the aromatics were like all right perfect. There's the three dominoes. There's a they're there. Let's get in the business. So that whole process took probably 18 to 24 months before we even decided to do it.
Doug
Right.
Dave
And we ended up finding, you know, this building on Mare Island and built a distillery. And, you know, then we were off to the races and and here we are.
Doug
Wow, wow. That's been great because, you know, I've been following it in the papers. I've still have to get down there. Oh, God. I must get myself a car.
Someone to drive me down. So I got and, and, you know, and good, good old Dave Phinney style, you're still not done, I guess I there's a new project I haven't even heard about. But what did some research tell me about the Santa Rita Hills? What's going on down there?
Dave
Yeah. So, when we were negotiating with Gallo, it was just coincidentally, we were also looking at, several properties, unplanted properties down in Santa Rita Hills Ave. Yeah, I've, I had and still have a very, an obsession kind of with Pinot noir and, so much so, in fact, that we do make a Grand Cru Mazis-Chambertin, red Burgundy. And, you know, we've, we've sort of gone down the Burgundy slash Pinot rabbit hole quite a bit and settled on about a 300 acre piece down there and ended up planting in two phases, 133 acres of vineyard, of which 125 is Pinot and the rest is Chardonnay. So just a tiny bit of Chardonnay and are kicking ourselves. I wish we would have planted more Chardonnay, the Chardonnay is amazing. I mean, you know, it's amazing too, but, but yeah, we just 2021 was our first commercial vintage. We just released the 2022, we are, you know, looking at the 2023, but it's, it's a big project.
I mean, you know, 133 acres. It's a lot of tonnage, and we sell quite a bit of the fruit right now, probably about 50% of the fruit to sort of friends and family and, and, of course, Gallo does or Orin Swift buys some fruit. There's, the, the project itself is called Our Lady of Guadalupe, which is the name of the vineyard.
And, there's already, I think, eight different wineries, vineyard designating, fruit from there, which we have to approve. So, yeah, it's kind of I don't want to say like it's the retirement plan, but it's kind of the retirement plan, although it doesn't feel like it right now because it's a I've. I forgot what it's like to launch a brand, and, and not have the, it's a carve out from Gallo. So it's, you know, everybody's very respectful each other. But, you know, I got very comfortable, you know, coming up with an idea and a brand and then saying, all right, now, Gallo, help me out. Out of all this. No, no, it's it's going. Yeah, I'm dragging a bag again.
Doug
Dragging the bag. Yeah. It's all right. Well, listen, you know, let me know. I'll, hire me. I'll work part time, I guess. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
Dave
No, it's it's fun. I, I forgot what it's like to have to pour someone a glass of wine, a buyer, and then then then to get, like, try not to get insulted when they tell you how bad your wine is. I'm like, oh, God, I forgot about this.
Doug
Right? Or. Yeah, or they make you got an appointment and they make you wait for 45 minutes.
Dave
Yeah, exactly.
Doug
The buyers, you know, some, nice young -
Dave
And all they all they want to talk about is Orin swift. So I'm like, oh, man. Okay. But which I have no problem doing, but no, it's a lot of fun.
And like I said, eventually it'll be, you know, we don't necessarily you well, you know, my kids, we don't. There's no pressure on them. And they know, you know, what we do. And if they do want to get in the business someday, you know this this may or may not be there, but it's it's something that I, I will do.
You know, I sort of have to make wine for the rest of my life because it's just as you know, you know, you I think this is my 28th harvest. At a certain point, you know, you just kind of it's just insane to think what you would do around this time of year. You know, you start to get that feeling.
So, if nothing else, this will be a way to to stay in the wine business between this and what we're doing in France and. And, yeah, it's it's a lot of fun.
Doug
Good for you. I don't want a I want to come see that French operation. Come visit.
Dave
Oh, I would love to. Love to show you around.
Doug
Yeah, yeah. And, just to wrap this thing up back here in Saint Helena, Napa Valley, you've got things going. Tell us about the the new Orin Swift tasting room. And, that whole experience, because that's kind of been local news in the last few months. What's going on there?
Dave
Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. We, we what we did is we expanded on the existing tasting room we had that was only about 700ft² of working space was tiny, as you probably remember.
And then next door, which was the old, you know, years and years ago was the Bank of Italy. Right. And then it was, the St. Helena Wine Center or the Bottle Shop. And that's a, I don't know, 3000ft². I mean, that's a real building. And, when, the, the Bottle Shop, they, they kind of shut their doors and, moved on and, and we had purchased both of those building from Fred Beringer and Kathy Beringer and, and, so the first thing I said to Gallo, I said, hey, you know, do we want to expand the before I talked to anybody else, do we want to expand the Orin Swift tasting room?
And it was a resounding yes. So, we spent about a year kind of planning and, and I think this was right around when sort of Covid was happening or right after Covid. So we had time to kind of, you know, poke around and see what was what. And we knew what sort of the bones of the building were like. And then, it went once we took off, if you remember, it had that sort of cultured stone wall stuff.
Doug
Right.
Dave
That was not very handsome. And, we were really surprised at how well they had created a sort of an exoskeleton around the original Art Deco plaster.
Doug
Right.
Dave
That we then were able to to restore and paint in it the light to me, it looks beautiful and and just really just expanded the footprint of Orin Swift and, and it's just been a knock on wood. It's been a, a great success. In fact, Kim and I, my wife and we were just there yesterday entertaining some friends from down southern California. And it was, it was it was a party in there. Yeah.
Doug
So now it's it's a gorgeous building. You guys have done a great job with it. It's really, really pretty. All right, man, I what else? Is there anything else going on coming down the pipe that I don't know about or that you want to share?
Dave
I'm sure. I mean, you know, we're we're still working on, you know, the Orin Swift, line is, is expanding within reason. You know, it's most of it'll be a lot of it will be direct to consumer and and sort of only available in the tasting room. We are working on a couple other little surprises for wholesale. The only other thing that we're that is, is of any consequence is the, sort of a direct to consumer, sort of subscription based, very small right now wine club called Gestalt.
And, that's been a lot of fun because it's really, getting back to that sort of making wine without any rules. And, you know, and also what's exciting for me is, is these sort of one off, what will end up being quarterly drops or are quarterly drops right now, it's, it's, a six pack every quarter.
And we've just started now collaborating, with, you know, technically, I'm the creative director and my brother in law, Tony Leonardini, is the, director of winemaking. Sebastian Lane is our, CEO. And then we've got an amazing group of sort of other, sort of founding partners, if you will. But the whole premise of it is to, well, we could do a collaboration because it's the idea is to collaborate with other winemakers, with other artists, musicians, interesting people from all walks of life and create this kind of community around, you know, that's centered around wine but also incorporates like experiences and, you know, kind of, again, cool collaboration.
So, you know, the wine is almost like table stakes and it's more of an excuse to start the conversation again with just other winemakers, other interesting people. And, and just, you know, harken back to kind of, well, you remember, I mean, just when everybody sort of helped everybody out, I mean, it still happens, but, you know, kind of get that, that more collaborative feel back and, and also have an avenue to explore different varietals and different blends and, you know, different AVAs.
And it'll be international, in fact. But but as you know, wine opens so many doors to people that, you know, I know I have no business knowing, and most of them want to try to make wine. So it's like, all right, well, now you got your wish.
Doug
So let's go.
Dave
You know, here's yeah, here's six different, you know, blending components. I'm going to sit here and watch and you know, and I might help out if you want. But that's you got to put your thumbprint on this and it's fun to watch people. They kind of get that deer in headlights and then they get really because you know, blending so much fun. And and these people just totally geek out on it.
And, and I think it's fun for, for the consumer and, and it's kind of proof that like, you know, I mean, everybody can be a winemaker at a certain point. And I think that's that's going to be a lot of fun is just to see what people come up with.
Doug
Well, it's like, well, I always yeah, I've said this before, you know, blend at home. And people said, what do you mean? I said, yeah, I said, I've always got like three half bottles of wine open because I like, you know, I try not to drink a bottle at night, you know, so and so there's, you know, I throw them in the fridge. It could be red, could be white, could be this varietal, that varietal.
And sometimes. Now I'm, you know, I've got pour somebody’s cab or Syrah. It's like, wow, it's really good. But man, It's just so much. And you know, we're having salmon. It's like, you know, that's how I got a little sauvignon block leftover from last night. So for a little bit on that and people say you're crazy. Why would I said try it. It's great.
Dave
It’s so much fun.
Doug
Sometimes it's not great. And that's kind of cool to you kind of figure out what's going on.
Dave
Exactly.
Doug
So you too can be a winemaker, ladies and gentlemen.
Dave
Exactly.
Doug
All right. hey, if people want to find your wines, is it. Or their website is just the Orin Swift website, is that the best way to go?
Dave
Yeah, it's the easiest way is Orin Swift. And then if you just Google my name, usually everything comes up, including Prisoner. But we got we're no longer involved with that. But most everything else that's on there is, is we've got some kind of a touch point with it, but especially Orin Swift and of course Our Lady of Guadalupe and Gastalt.
But those are in and Department 66 and France. But those are kind of the, the wine related avenues and then, and then Savage and Cook. But yeah, that's kind of the best way.
Doug
All right, man, Dave, thanks for taking the time. Thanks for your story. It's, it's been a great story. It continues to be a great one. We'll we will keep track of you as the years go on. Take care, man.
Dave
Awesome, awesome. You too. Doug. Thank you.
Doug
You bet.
Thanks. Bye bye.