Cleo Pahlmeyer60 MINUTES

A new podcast series from Doug Shafer about the people behind the food and wine you love.

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Doug Shafer and Cleo Pahlmeyer

Cleo Pahlmeyer grew up in Napa then headed to the East Coast and later to London to pursue her love of art history. By 2008 though, she’d developed an interest in the world of wine. She applied for an entry level job at her father’s winery, Pahlmeyer, where she took on more and more responsibilities, and today is Pahlmeyer’s president.

For more visit: Pahlmeyer.com


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FULL TRANSCRIPT

 

Doug:
Everybody welcome back. Another episode of The Taste, this is Doug Shafer, we've got a special guest today, Cleo Pahlmeyer. Welcome Cleo.

Cleo:
Thank you.

Doug:
And, um, I've got to tell you, I got to tell you a couple of stories.

Cleo:
Okay.

Doug:
So, you and I first met, it was about a year ago, six, eig- eight months ago. It was a vintner dinner. If I get this wrong, correct me.

Cleo:
Okay.

Doug:
And we were, ah, it was five or six vintners hosting the Danny Meyer team of somms, the

Cleo:
That's right.

Doug:
... U- U-, ah, Union Square Hospitality Group, they're five or six different somms from his restaurants. And we had dinner down at, ah, Andy Erickson's house, in-

Cleo:
That's right.

Doug:
... Coombsville, and that's the first time I met you. And it was like, Cleo Pahlmeyer, it's like, "Wait," you know, "Where's Jayson?" And she goes, "No, this, I'm Cleo-

Cleo:
(laughs).

Doug:
... and I've been around, I'm gonna run this thing." So, that was fun, and, um, it, you know, I knew you were coming in here today so I was thinking about first time I met your dad.

Cleo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
Because it probably had to be '84, '85, I'd just started at Shafer, and I was down in San Francisco selling wine, and I walked in to, you know, liquor wine store,-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
... and he was working the floor.

Cleo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
I started talking to him. Nice guy. He tells me he's a lawyer. I say, "You're a lawyer? What are you doing in a wine shop?" He goes, "I want to make wine." I said, "What do you mean?" 'Cause ... And this guy, you know, I was selling him Shafer wines, and he was ah, ... he's the buyer, but he-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
... was like, "I want to do this. I want to-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
... grow grapes and make wine." I said, "Well, go get 'em tiger, good luck to you."

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
And I didn't see him again until about three years later, I ran into him up here in Napa, and said, "Hey." He goes, "Hey." He goes ... I said, "You did it." He goes, "Yeah, I'm making wine, here's my first one."

Cleo:
(laughs).

Doug:
So it, it happened, this guy, obviously a lawyer, and-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
... got the wine bug, and, and did it.

Cleo:
Yeah. It's interesting because he is someone that, I mean that is something that I admire about him the most, is that here's someone who says, "I'm passionate about this, I'm gonna do it." And he did it.

Doug:
So neat.

Cleo:
And, you know, you've ... have a lot of people that got into the business through family or some, some other path, and then of course there's also other people that are just totally inspired by wine.

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
Ah, which h- happens to all of us, right, ah, all of us in the industry. And so I think that's one of the things I admire most about my dad, is that he just ... his passion, just lets that ... lets that drive him.

Doug:
Great. And I know it's great. So, I kinda got, I think we've got like two stories here today, 'cause what ... so I'd like to do, if it's okay with you,-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
... is start off, and maybe give us, everyone out here a- a background on, you know, Pahlmeyer Winery, Pahlmeyer wines, you know, where it's been, you know, kind of before Cleo.

Cleo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
And then we can get in when you joined, you know,-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
... joined up, and what's been going on since. So tell ... talk to me about Pahlmeyer.

Cleo:
Yeah. So like I said, my ... so when you met my dad, ah, you said that was like '84.

Doug:
'84,-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
... '85-ish, in there I think.

Cleo:
So, so I was born in '83, um,-

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
... which I understand is the year you started making wine. (laughs).

Doug:
You've done your ... ah, man, you've done ... I hope you haven't done all your homework.

Cleo:
No, not all my homework.

Doug:
I'll be in trouble. Okay.

Cleo:
Um, but I picked up that one. And so, when I was born, my dad and mom, um, or after my brother was born, he was born about a year and a half later.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cleo:
They decided that they were gonna go to Spain, and just spend a couple of years-

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
... just traveling around Spain. So they did that, And then came back to, um, to California and f- from what I've pieced together, that's about the time that we moved to Napa, and, ah, he started, started making wines. He had been kind of doing some négociant labels and bringing ... importing those from Europe and then so while he was selling the stuff on the floor, he was also selling people (laughs) his, ah, his, ah, ah, imports too.

Doug:
There you go.

Cleo:
That he was, ah, on, on the side.

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
So he was ... he was a lawyer and in law school he, um, well he had ... he had gotten the bug, the wine bug from his dad, from my-

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
... grandfather, ah, Ralph Pahlmeyer, and my grandfather, took my, my dad and my, ah, uncle to Europe and they traveled in, um, Bordeaux mostly, and some of the great wine regions there, Champagne, and, ah, and that's where my dad really, really fell in love with wine.

Doug:
So do you think that's why they wanted to go, go live in Spain, your folks? Early on?

Cleo:
Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Doug:
Yeah. Okay. Neat.

Cleo:
They, ah, you know they, they just ... they loved wine, they loved traveling, loved Europe, um, loved food, and, um, yeah, I don't know. I don't, they didn't, they-

Doug:
Were you born? Were you b- ... were you b- ... were you ... were you-

Cleo:
... don't seem very responsible parents, do they?

Doug:
I know, I was gonna say. But well actually no. Yeah. They're-

Cleo:
(laughs). I mean, what about the job and the 401(k), and I mean, goodness gracious (laughs).

Doug:
Yeah, but I'm, I'm really jealous 'cause it's like they did what we all want to do.

Cleo:
Totally, why aren't I doing that right now?

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
So I was, ah, I was like one or two years old.

Doug:
Okay

Cleo:
And, ah, in fact I learned Spanish before English. My mother speaks Spanish and French, um, and Portuguese, she's an interpreter and translator.

Doug:
Oh, neat.

Cleo:
Um, and, ah, but, and so then when I started ... when we moved back to Napa and I started going to school here, um, Sunrise Montessori, ah, where my kids go now (laughs).

Doug:
Got it, got it.

Cleo:
They ... I, ah, I, although I could only speak Spanish, and, um, there was a teacher there, ah, Cheryl, who just retired a couple of years ago, and she, ah, could speak French and I think a little bit of Spanish, so I mostly latched onto her, but then I quickly realized that when I speak, nobody understands what I'm saying.

Doug:
No one understands, yeah.

Cleo:
And I ... and then I just ended up refusing to speak, ah, speak Spanish anymore, and, um, and I've been taking Spanish classes ever since.

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
(laughs).

Doug:
So back ... so back to Pahlmeyer. So he was ... he was-

Cleo:
Yeah. So back to Pahlmeyer. So, so my dad in, in law school, he had gotten the wine bug-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... for traveling in Europe and started a wine tasting group. Um, and through that group he, um, met John Caldwell. Um,-

Doug:
Okay, John Caldwell, who's Coombsville, s-

Cleo:
Coombsville.

Doug:
... southeast Napa.

Cleo:
Yes, and Caldwell Vineyard -

Doug:
The pioneer actually of that area.

Cleo:
Of that area, exactly. And so they had ... so John, John's family had a property in, in Coombsville.

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
And so my dad, ah, the first he was like, "Hey, well you should build some starter mansions on, on that property." So, so-

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
... they looked into that. Well the county wouldn't let them, let them-

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
... sub-divide the, the land. So, ah, so it was like, "Well how about a vineyard?" But that wasn't a ... that wasn't the first, you know, idea that they came up with, 'cause nobody was planting vineyards in Coombsville back then.

Doug:
Ah, there ... back, ah, yeah, Coombsville was not planted, it was thought to be too cold.

Cleo:
Too cold.

Doug:
Too cold a region.

Cleo:
Exactly.

Doug:
This is-

Cleo:
And the ... where, where John's, ah, vineyard is, it's very steep, ah, hillside.

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
And that's also, people weren't really planting on the hillsides quite yet.

Doug:
Exa- Uh-huh (affirmative), that's true.

Cleo:
Um, back, back then, or if, if they were, it was ... it was new. And so they got this crazy idea, "Well let's plant a vineyard out here," and ... so they partnered together and, and end up planting the vineyard.

Doug:
So he was working with Caldwell. I didn't ... I'd wondered about that. That's who-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
Yeah. And so then, um, ah, Randy Dunn, ah, was interested in what they were doing down there. They had, John Caldwell had smuggled in Bordeaux clones.

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
Um, they, they imported ... together they went to, my dad and John, went to Europe, ah, they went to Bordeaux, they, ah, they figured out which clones they wanted to bring back. And then, ah, imported them to, ah, to Canada, which was no problem. Then they had to get them from Canada into the U.S.

Doug:
And I'm gonna guess, this is a gue- ... I'm gonna, I'm ... you ... I might be totally wrong, I bet you they got 'em in- into Napa Valley in shoe boxes, 'cause John Caldwell sold shoes at the Vintage 1870 in Yountville, because this was-

Cleo:
Exactly.

Doug:
... when I was in high school, in college. I remember he ran the shoe store.

Cleo:
Yup.

Doug:
I didn't know he was doing grapes. Tell me, is, is that-

Cleo:
So John was-

Doug:
Is that how he got them in?

Cleo:
... taking tri- ... That's ex- ... You, just totally guessed it.

Doug:
Oh, my gosh.

Cleo:
You, you just totally guessed that.

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
Yeah, so, and you're totally right. Yeah, so John's family has a shoe store.

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
And, ah, so John was, ah, carrying the truckloads over the border, um, on the east coast, and then shipping them back here in shoe boxes.

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
And, um-

Doug:
I can't believe I guessed it.

Cleo:
I can't believe-

Doug:
I did (laughs).

Cleo:
... you guessed it either. I think you're, you're stealing my thunder here, but you totally just guessed it. (laughs).

Doug:
No, no, no. I just ... because, well you know I used to buy shoes from John Caldwell.

Cleo:
Yeah. Yeah.

Doug:
You know, this was years before he started growing grapes.

Cleo:
Shoe boxes. That's exactly right.

Doug:
Oh, how funny.

Cleo:
And, um, but on one of the final truckloads John got caught by the authorities.

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
And, ah, and so they ended up, um, cooperating with the authorities.

Doug:
Okay, of course.

Cleo:
And deciding, okay, we'll turn over all of our illegal contraband, meanwhile all the dormant budwood was tucked away on the property, um, in an old barn.

Doug:
Great.

Cleo:
But on the day before the authorities were to arrive to pick up all of this ... all of this, ah-

Doug:
Contraband.

Cleo:
... foreign, all this contraband, um, they went and purchased the same number of vine cuttings from U.C. Davis.

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
And when they ... authorities came to pick up the, ah, the budwood, they turned over the purchased-

Doug:
The, the purchased.

Cleo:
... budwood from U.C. Davis instead.

Doug:
Oh my gosh.

Cleo:
And so then, um, so then, I don't know, months later maybe they followed up with, with my dad and John, they said, "Oh, well you know, we're so glad that you, um, cooperated with us, because-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... look at this whole printout of all the diseases that we found (laughs) in this budwood."

Doug:
Diseases from the budwood that, that, th-

Cleo:
Little did they know they were testing their own stuff.

Doug:
They're testing their own stuff that was growing up at Davis.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
That's funny. Well that's the way it was. It was ... it was, took-

Cleo:
Yup.

Doug:
... a long time to figure out how to get clean budwood. Um, to this-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
... day it's still a challenge.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
Those guys, a couple of outlaws. You know, those two, you put ... I'm thinking about putting Cald- ... John Caldwell and your father, Jayson Pahlmeyer, in-

Cleo:
Yup.

Doug:
... the same room together.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
They're a couple of outlaws.

Cleo:
Yeah. Well I don't know.

Doug:
In a good way. In a good way.

Cleo:
A couple of outlaws. You know how it is with-

Doug:
Well-

Cleo:
... with, ah, with men getting up in the years, the, the stories take on a life of their own.

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
So, maybe-

Doug:
No, no they don't. No they don't.

Cleo:
... you should put them in separate rooms and, ah, and, and, and, and, and then, then compare stories (laughs).

Doug:
Well, you know, it's ... look, Cleo, you know, you sell wine, you know lil- little embellishment's okay now and again. But that's-

Cleo:
Yeah, yeah, of course. As, yeah, as my husband always says, ah, "Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story." (laughs).

Doug:
Amen to th- ... Amen to that. Well how cool. So they got together, out in Coombsville, where no grapes were growing, 'cause it was too cold.

Cleo:
Yup.

Doug:
And they started growing grapes.

Cleo:
Yup, so, um, so clearly, I mean, it took the, you know it takes several years f-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... in, in, in ... under the best conditions for um, for your vines to get established. And so, ah, but they, they were, you know, they were struggling a little bit. Every- everything was new back then in terms-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cleo:
... of viticulture. Everyone was still figuring things out. I mean we still are-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... here in Napa Valley today. We don't have 100s and 100s of years like they do in, um, in the old world-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... of knowledge. Um, ah, but Randy Dunn, um, I think I me- ... started talking about this earlier, but he, um, was interested in this vineyard, he obviously ... for his, ah, for his Napa Valley bottling.

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
Ah, cle- clearly he's, um, you know, he was interested in Bordeaux clones, and so, ah, so he came to check out their vineyard, and the first, ah, meeting, my dad's practically tripping over himself because, oh my God, here's Randy Dunn already, um,-

Doug:
Interested.

Cleo:
... one of the great winemakers in Napa Valley.

Doug:
'Cause he was ... he had been at Caymus, and might have still been there, but then he, within a few years after Caymus, he started his own brand, Dunn Vineyards, right.

Cleo:
Exactly, yeah. And so ... and all he had to, to say at the time was, ah, was, ah, "Don't screw it up." I think he might have used another word, I don't know-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... if we're allowed to swear today (laughs).

Doug:
You can do anything ... you can do anything ... so anything you want, this is our show.

Cleo:
And, ah, anyways, he came back another time and, and, and said he wanted to purchase some fruit, and my dad said, "Well, you know I do-, I don't want to just," um, you know, "We're not just selling grapes, I want to make my own wine, it's my dream to make, um, my own, um Bordeaux style wine in Napa Valley." Um, his, "My own Mouton," as my dad said.

Doug:
Right, okay.

Cleo:
And so handshake, a deal on the vineyard, and Randy Dunn became our first winemaker.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
Um, so our first vintage was 1986.

Doug:
'86, okay.

Cleo:
With, ah, the Pahlmeyer, the time we called it the red table wine, um, now it's Pahlmeyer Proprietary Red, um. Yeah.

Doug:
Right, and it's always been a blend, right? It's a-

Cleo:
It's always been a blend.

Doug:
Right. Bordeaux blend.

Cleo:
Yeah. The five major Bordeaux varieties. Yeah.

Doug:
Great, and so, ah, made the wine, ah, did he have ... do you guys have a facility? Or did he at the time have a actual winery?

Cleo:
No, no, we, um, yeah, we did custom crush all the way until, um, through 2011.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
Um, and now we, we have our own facility and team, um, that we operate.

Doug:
And where is it exactly? Where's?

Cleo:
So we, ah, we make our wine at, um, a facility in Calistoga.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
So we don't own the facility, but we operate it.

Doug:
You operate it.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
And, and through the years you've got ... but s- starting with Randy Dunn, you've had some great winemakers.

Cleo:
Yup.

Doug:
And they-

Cleo:
That's right. So, um, following, ah, Randy Dunn, um, Helen Turley took over in 1992.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
Um, and she, ah, she was a ... I mean clearly really establishing her own name then, ah, consulting for-

Doug:
Yes.

Cleo:
... ah, some of the, ah, you know, first cult wines in, ah, in Napa ... in Napa Valley.

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
And she and my dad worked together, ah, through 1999.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
That's a good step.

Cleo:
Yeah. Yeah. Ah, my dad has many, many fond memories of, of working with, with Helen. Um, they, they had quite a bond.

Doug:
Oh, she was ... mm.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
Yeah. I think I remember ... I remember hearing about that.

Cleo:
Yeah. Yeah.

Doug:
And then Erin Green, Kale Anderson, Bibiana Conzález.

Cleo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And, ah,-

Doug:
And now-

Cleo:
... and now Jennifer Williams.

Doug:
Who was at Spottswoode for a long time.

Cleo:
That's right.

Doug:
Great.

Cleo:
That's right, yeah, so that was-

Doug:
She's a super winemaker.

Cleo:
That's right, yeah, that was exciting for me, because, um, I took over as president of Pahlmeyer, um, about a year and a half ago, and-

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
... so, um, Jennifer was, was the first winemaker I've ever hired, and, um, and it was a, a daunt- ... it's, I mean, it's a lot of pressure in that process.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cleo:
And, ah-

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
But I am just, ah, so thrilled to be working-

Doug:
Good.

Cleo:
To be working with such a lovely, um, person, and with such a talented person, so, yeah.

Doug:
Good, I'm glad, I mean I'm with you, I know about that hiring and firing, it's, ah-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
It's, it's like-

Cleo:
And, and being-

Doug:
... comes right down to-

Cleo:
... no disrespect to anyone else on my team, but the winemaker is, is, is the, is key, very key person (laughs).

Doug:
That's, that's ... Very key person.

Cleo:
Yes.

Doug:
And I've got to through in something, because I was aware of it, 'cause I'm a little bit old- ... a little bit older than you, but, ah, you probably weren't too aware of it at the time, back in the day, because people need to see this movie-

Cleo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
... you know, and, um, so apparently th- there was a movie being shot and starred, ah, Demi Moore and, um, oh Michael Douglas.

Cleo:
Oh yeah.

Doug:
It's called Disclosure.

Cleo:
Yup.

Doug:
And, ah, there was a, a very critical scene where there was a bottle of Chardonnay, it was a Pahlmeyer Chardonnay, and my recollection is that just, the exposure for you guys was fantastic. Was like-

Cleo:
Well, you ... it definitely was. Um, so that was, I mean that was just dumb luck I guess, honestly.

Doug:
Hey-

Cleo:
It's a ... it's a great story though, of course, so, um, so my dad gets a phone call one day from a ... some, ah, producer in, in Hollywood and-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... saying, "Oh, we want to put your wine in a movie." "Oh, okay, well you know it's, um," maybe it was $30 a bottle at the time, "it's $30 a bottle, you know, okay. Goodbye."

Doug:
(laughs). I love it, he's gonna ... he's gonna make 'em pay for it. Yeah.

Cleo:
Yeah. And, um, you know, my dad's assuming, like, his, his very safe assumption that, "Oh, it's just gonna be a bottle sitting on a table in the background-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... of some scene."

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
And, um, anyways, and so then the next day an executive producer calls him back, he says, "Um, Mr. Pahlmeyer, I don't think you understand."

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
You know, "We want to have your wine in this movie, do you know how much money Budweiser paid to have their can of beer in Tom Cruise's hand in, in, in-

Doug:
Right, product, product placement thing, yeah.

Cleo:
... Tom Cruise's last movie?" So my dad starts back-pedaling 90 miles an hour.

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
So, "Okay, okay, how many cases do you need?" And, um, sends them the wine, then doesn't think much of it after that, um, he and my stepmother were actually invited to the premier of the movie.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
They had something else that they'd already committed to, couldn't go. So there they are sitting at the Cinedome in, ah-

Doug:
In, in Napa.

Cleo:
... in Napa.

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
The, ah, the c-

Doug:
The local, local theater.

Cleo:
... the, the one that would flood every couple of years and-

Doug:
Right, that's the one.

Cleo:
... it smelled kinda funny, and ... (laughs). And, ah, watching this movie, and they practically fell off their chairs when they saw how the wine figured in the movie. So, it was, first of all, it was Demi Moore and Michael Douglas-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... at the peak of their careers.

Doug:
They were the stars, yeah.

Cleo:
So this was a ... this was a, a blockbuster movie for, I think it was released in '93, '92, something-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cleo:
... like that. And, um, and the wine was actually p- ... integral to the plot of the movie.

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
So, um, Michael Douglas character, Demi Moore character, had been ... had a relationship in the past, um, and then since, since moved on. Michael Douglas was married with kids, working for a tech firm in Seattle and he's gunning for this promotion, but instead of getting the promotion, they bring in his ex-girlfriend, ah, Demi Moore character.

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
And so she takes over as his boss at the company. And then she, um, plans this, ah, late night, ah, meeting, um,-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cleo:
... and, ah, Michael Douglas walks into the room and, ah, she gets off the phone and she has a bottle of Pahlmeyer Chardonnay, ah, chilling. And he goes, "Oh the '91 Pahlmeyer, I've been looking all over for this."

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
And then she says,-

Doug:
So he got to ... got all ... the got all ... Michael Douglas, you know, deal.

Cleo:
Oh, yeah. And then she says in a very seductive way, "I like all the boys under me to be happy." (laughs).

Doug:
Aye, aye, aye, aye, aye. So there you go.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
So ladies and gentlemen you need to like, you know, get on Netflix and, um-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
... and get a bottle of Pahlmeyer Chardonnay and done, and, um-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
.. watch, watch the movie, Disclosure. Yeah, you can.

Cleo:
So I won't ... I won't ruin the plot of the movie, but it ... then the wine is mentioned a couple of other times-

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
... um, in, in the-

Doug:
In the court case, and all that stuff.

Cleo:
Towards ... in the course of the movie. Yeah.

Doug:
That's so cool.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
So there's Pahlmeyer today. So, let's go to chapter two here.

Cleo:
Okay.

Doug:
Let's talk about Cleo. So, born and raised in Napa.

Cleo:
That's right.

Doug:
Um-

Cleo:
Born in San Francisco.

Doug:
... born in ... okay.

Cleo:
Ah, raised in Napa, after my parents came back from gallivanting through Europe. (laughs).

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
Yeah, so that was, ah, would have been '86 when we came back here.

Doug:
Got it. And high school was-

Cleo:
So actually, um, went to boarding school in-

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
... in Delaware, ah, St. Andrew's School, which was, ah, I must have been a pretty precocious, um, 13 year old, I guess, because I, um ... One of my good friends growing up, um, Claire Hudson actually.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
And her family, um, ah, got Hudson Vineyards, they-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... just, that's what they did, they go to boarding school. And so that put the idea in my head, and, ah, I was like, "Hey dad, can I go to boarding school too?" And, um-

Doug:
That's pretty wild, 'cause you were like-

Cleo:
And so-

Doug:
... 13, 14 years old right?

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
(laughs). Yeah, and so I ended up, um, essentially going to college four years early. Um, but it was ... it was awesome! I loved it.

Doug:
How were ... he, he, he was good? You loved ... I'm ... In Delaware. A long way away.

Cleo:
In Delaware, a long way away. Yeah. Yeah, so, um, but it was great and then I ended up going to, um, college at University of Virginia.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
So stuck around on the east coast. And honestly didn't think that I would be back in California ever, but of course you never know where your life's gonna end up when you're in your teens and early 20s.

Doug:
Well, we all keep ... Right, we ... none of us do. Um, and so I, I did some research on you. It was Art History, and then Masters. Masters in-

Cleo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). After college, um, I was sort of looking around at all my other friends, or as ... as senior year was coming to a close, going, "Oh, geez, like there's these job fairs and people are getting these position at banks in New York, and at these other, you know, retail ... large retailers." I'm like, "My gosh, what do ... what am I going to do?"

Doug:
What do I do? What do I do?

Cleo:
So like, "Ah, Dad, can I stay in school for a little bit longer?" (laughs).

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
So, um, I heard about this great program in London, um, that's a Master's Degree in, um, The Connoisseurship of Fine and Decorative Art. So I decided to continue to pursue my, ah, love for Art History.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
And do that for, ah, about a year and a half.

Doug:
In London?

Cleo:
In London. Yeah.

Doug:
How was that?

Cleo:
That was great. That was great.

Doug:
I was gonna say, "How could it not be great?"

Cleo:
Yeah. Yeah, I mean it is one of those cities where it's definitely kind of like New York, it's, it's more fun if you have more money in the bank, but ... (laughs).

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cleo:
Um, but it was, it was a great experience. Yeah.

Doug:
I like that.

Cleo:
It was fun being in London, 'cause it also was a nice jumping-off point for really, ah, inexpensive and short flights to all sorts of places in Europe too, so.

Doug:
You got to travel.

Cleo:
Yeah, I got to travel a good amount, so-

Doug:
Oh, that's great. That's good.

Cleo:
... you know it was a great experience. Um, and then ... and then following London, um, I ... well while I was ... while I was living there I was working at, um, Bonham's Auctioneers.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
Um, helping out, um, in one of the entry level positions, as you know, as a ... to run auctions.

Doug:
W- ... So, and what, what types of ... would they auction? Everything, or just ... or was it wine, or art? Was it mostly art?

Cleo:
Um, you know, I was ... it was mostly artwork and furniture and things like that. Um, but then of course, they also had wine auctions and somebody pointed out to me, "Oh, look at your ... here's Pahlmeyer wine in this wine auction." I was kinda like, "What, really? In this international wine auction?"

Doug:
Well were you kind of ... were you kind of tuned into the wine thing? I mean well at that-

Cleo:
No.

Doug:
... point ... at that point Pahlmeyer was rocking pretty, pretty well, right?

Cleo:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean my dad, um-

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
Yeah. That would have been the, um, the early 2000's and, um, and at that, ah, point my, ah ... yeah, I guess it was around that time, maybe a couple of years later, that my dad started expressing interest in sort of stepping back from the business. Um, so it sort of all happened around this time, that-

Doug:
But were you d- ... It's, ah, I'm interrupting-

Cleo:
I started to kind of actually-

Doug:
... you, but were you drinking wine? Were you kind of-

Cleo:
Ah, I ... No, I, I wasn't the wine ... it wasn't some experience with a bottle of wine that-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... set me on this course. It was the realization that, "Wow, look at what my dad has done."

Doug:
Oh.

Cleo:
Like maybe all these ... all these ... him, telling me how great he is ... maybe it's actually (laughs) so-

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
... true, and not, not just, "Oh, okay, Dad." Um, but, ah, so seeing, seeing what he had accomplished and how the wine is received all over the country, all over the world, um, and-

Doug:
Mm.

Cleo:
... then also seeing him start to say, "Okay look, I'm, I, I need to retire. I need to step back from the business." Um, I thought, "Well, gosh, I mean, then you lose ... you lose the secret sauce, if it's not a family owned-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... business, and not a family driven business, then what is it?" And, um, I mean it certainly ... it would ... it's certainly not what it is now. And so at that point, I started seriously considering, ah, getting involved in the family business. For that reason, to continue what my dad had built.

Doug:
You know something, you know h- ... thanks for sharing that, I mean how neat that you recognize that, and-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
And it's like, you know, because you know we all have parents and we have chil- ... we all have children now too, and, and, um, you know the parents sit there and crank it out and do what they can do, and you know, to, to be a young adult child, and recognize that, that's pretty neat.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
And I'm sure you told 'em, and that ... it probably made 'em feel really good.

Cleo:
And you know, and it was never ... it was never any pressure to get involved, I mean-

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
... ah, you know you talk about family businesses that, um, have successfully gone from one-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... generation to the next, and one, one key element is you don't pressure the next generation.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cleo:
And so, you know, so that was ... I never felt any pressure like this is what I had to do. Um, and then also that the, you know, the generation interested in becoming part of the business should also have kind of their own path for a while. At least, as an outside experience.

Doug:
Sure.

Cleo:
Um, so I ... so I started thinking about it, but, um, at that time, the early 2000's, but then for a couple more years-

Doug:
And were you still ... were you still in London, or were you ... were you still in London or were you back-

Cleo:
At that point I, I'd, I'd moved back to, um, to the U.S. and so-

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
... it was maybe, ah, oh gosh ... maybe it was 2006, 2007, something like that.

Doug:
And living in S- ... living in San Francisco?

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
Yeah, and then, um, and then it was a couple of years, um, working in San Francisco. Um, I worked for Williams-Sonoma Incorporate, um, and-

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
... then, ah, and then in 2008 ... so it's just been ... so it's been 10 years, ah, ah, this August. Ten years now, working for the winery. So, um-

Doug:
Wow!

Cleo:
... my stepmother emailed me, yeah, and she said, "Oh, there's an entry level position opened up at the office, and do you have any friends that are ... wanna get into the wine business?" And at that point-

Doug:
This is ... this is in 2008?

Cleo:
Yeah, so in 2008.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
So, um, and I said, at that point it's like, "You know what," I said, "Can I interview for this job?" (laughs).

Doug:
That's, that's cute.

Cleo:
And so I did. And they hired me, and, ah, I started out as a sales assistant and I was answering phones and-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... entering orders, and, ah, entering PO's and things like that, so.

Doug:
Learn the business. Yeah.

Cleo:
Yeah. So I, um ... so everything I know about the wine industry, and about wine, is all, ah, just by working in the ... through, through, through work experience.

Doug:
Well yeah, I mean you've got to ... How do you invoice? How do you Orders? You know how to allocating wines and shipping wine distributors, all that stuff.

Cleo:
Absolutely, working-

Doug:
All the-

Cleo:
... working with a lot of really great, um, colleagues and consultants over the years.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cleo:
Ah, learning DTC business, ecommerce, um, marketing, public relations, ah, all those sort of ... all those things. My path has been much more on the sales and marketing side.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cleo:
But in ... at least in the last few years, um, also starting to work a lot more, just meeting regularly with our vineyard manager, winemakers, um, and, ah-

Doug:
Good.

Cleo:
... and getting more involved in ... and learning from the people that I work with.

Doug:
Yeah. It's, it's, um ... I'm in a lucky position at this point here, because, um, I get to interact with everybody.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
And I'm ... instead of sales and marketing, I came up through the production end.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
So I've actually had to, over the years, work with our sales director and who's, who's ever in that position, they've taught me things.

Cleo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
It, you know, 'cause I didn't know-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
... whereas the production, you know, I've, I've, I've kind of got that down, but-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
... but where you're finding it now, it's fun to interact with everybody. And what's great is, sometimes the, the vineyard guy will have a great solution to some sales issue going on.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
And vice versa.

Cleo:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Doug:
And that's ... that happens a lot, and it's fun to see.

Cleo:
It does. You know, it's, um, the, the wine ... you know the wine business is so interesting in that way, it's ... I mean especially for family businesses, there's something for everybody (laughs) in the ... there's-

Doug:
That's true.

Cleo:
... so many different, um, positions, and, ah, and departments that, that are s- so different, um, and so it's ... I mean to know it all is, is impossible.

Doug:
You are, you're always learning.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
Curious about the whole, you know, art education experience and working with the art business and, um, do you miss that? Or is that ... is there some, any connection with that and, and running a winery? Is there s-

Cleo:
You know I, I love ... I love art, I love, um, I, I love it as a more of an academic pursuit,-

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
... but, um ... I mean my husband and I were just in, um, where the heck were we? We were in, um, oh, in Amsterdam, um, and-

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
... and going, and I had to drag him to the, um, Rijksmuseum.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
Any, you know, he ... we went to the Van Gogh Museum, he loved that, and I had to drag him to this, and I'm just like dying, I'm loving all these old masters' paintings, and he's sort of like, "Okay, come on, quickly, let's go, let's go." (laughs).

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
And sort of like ... I just, um-

Doug:
He wants to go to dinner.

Cleo:
And so, um, my, my passion was really in the old masters and, um, and I just ... in that, and I love that as an academic, um, ah, sort of, ah, pursuit, but in terms of my career, I've always envisioned myself being in a more business career. To be in business in the art world, it's really all about contemporary art.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
Um, and, ah-

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
... and that wasn't, ah, the area of art that I was interested in, so-

Doug:
I didn't know ... I didn't know that. Okay.

Cleo:
Yeah, well I mean I learned very quickly at working at Bonham's that, um, you know, there were people that I was working alongside, that had the same degrees that I had, and they'd been there for years, and they were still assistants at auctions. And really not even, even having high touch with the actual artwork.

Doug:
Interesting, so that-

Cleo:
And, um, and I mean that's just ... that's just the art world. It's ah, it's a very, ah, s-, ah, long ladder-

Doug:
Right right.

Cleo:
... to get to where you're close to the art, ah, especially in the old, in the old masters and things like that.

Doug:
Interesting.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
Didn't know it. You see because I've also ... I've also ... I want to go back to school and take some Art History classes, because I was all viticulture enology, it's all just-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
... science and biochem and-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
... botany and biology, and I never got some of that just basic lib- liberal arts stuff, I really ... I really kind of-

Cleo:
You know, just like Art History 101.

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
It's a great class, and-

Doug:
Just-

Cleo:
... I lament how, um, just sort of the, the liberal arts education is, I feel ver- becoming very undervalued, ah, today.

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
And even w- ... even when I was in college, sort of like, "Oh, what you going to do with, with Art History?" There's a lot of pressure to major in marketing-

Doug:
Right, right.

Cleo:
... or something like that.

Doug:
I just dropped, ah, one of my kids off to school, and I was looking at his classes, and he's taking an Econ class, which is great, but he's also taking an Introduction to Architecture, 'cause he loves that, and also an Intro Design class, and you know I call him at-

Cleo:
Yeah, those intro classes are so good.

Doug:
Call him at the ... Yeah, call him up the first week, he goes, "Oh, dad, this design class is so cool, and architecture is ..." You know is his-

Cleo:
Yeah. 'Cause often times those intro classes are taught by some of the best professors at the university, or at least that was the case at UVA.

Doug:
Mm.

Cleo:
Um, they were huge classes, they-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... they were general, but they were taught by great professors.

Doug:
Great teachers.

Cleo:
And m- most often times the, the professor makes all the difference in the world.

Doug:
Well it's true. That's true.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
Alright, so back to you working at Pahlmeyer, you're in the office, you're sales associate, you're learning everything, you're working your way up, that was 2008, that's 10 years ago. How did ... So how'd, how'd that proceed after working in the office?

Cleo:
Sure. Well, you know, I think with, ah, with family businesses, you, ah, you tend to have, um, you know the, the family members working in the business tend to be given more responsibility than they probably should have at the time, right?

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
So, so over the years there's been a few deer in the headlights moments like, "You want me to take over what?" (laughs).

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
And so I've had to just kind of figure it out, and-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... seek out the right people and advice and, um, and so maybe a year or two, maybe, after I started at the winery, I started managing direct-to-consumer sales. Maybe it was even less time than that, um, and-

Doug:
Wow!

Cleo:
... then managing, um, marketing and then around 2000, 2012, ah, we hired a president, ah, for the company.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
Um, Brian Hilliard, who, ah, was a great mentor to me. And so at that time a couple things were set in motion. I started, um, I also started managing Public Relations at that point. Um, someone else took over direct-to-consumer sales.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
And, um, we decided to launch, ah, the Wayfarer brand, so my dad-

Doug:
Yeah, tell me ... well, well, before you get into Wayfarer, c- curious, 'cause-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
... I'm curious 'cause you know J- ... you know I tracked with Jayson a little bit, now is he still there working at those ... these years? Or has he kind of stepped back? When, when-

Cleo:
No, my dad stepped back around 2008 I would say.

Doug:
Okay, right, r-

Cleo:
Around the same time that I started working for the company.

Doug:
Okay. So you-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
Did you ever have a chance to work kind of day-to-day with him? A little bit?

Cleo:
No. No.

Doug:
Wow, okay.

Cleo:
Um, no he'll, he'll call me up with one of his pet projects-

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
... he wants me to take care of.

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
Um, but, (laughs) and of course now, you know, we discuss how the business is doing, ah-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... from time to time, but, ah, never, have not really had that experience of working side by side with my dad. Um, yeah.

Doug:
No, not, but, yeah, but even though it's not side-by-side, you guys are still ... it seems like you're still talking and you're communicating in that ... What's-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
... that like? Is that ... is that neat? Is it?

Cleo:
It's great, I mean, I think, um, I know my dad, ah, my dad's really stoked about it. He is, he-

Doug:
Oh, good.

Cleo:
... is, he is really thrilled. Um, and 'cause again this is nothing that he ever pushed me into doing, but, um, but he just, he's so, I mean, he is very ... He always tell me he's very proud and just like so happy that is-

Doug:
I- is he, um, does he-

Cleo:
This is what we're doing.

Doug:
Is he doing the dad thing, where it's like, you know, he, he doesn't want to give you too much advice, but just can't help himself, sort of?

Cleo:
No, no, he, he, ah-

Doug:
Really, wow. Good for him.

Cleo:
He just ... I, I, I ask him for advice from time to time, um, but no, no he's, ah, he's very happy on the beach in Hawaii. (laughs).

Doug:
Okay. (laughs). Wow, good for him. How neat. What a cool experience.

Cleo:
Yeah. Yeah. And I have a great network, um, a lot of people who, ah, my dad has known for-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... decades. Um, and, ah, just a network of people that I've also built, um, because, ah, you know, ah-

Doug:
That's nice.

Cleo:
... you don't get there alone, you know, so.

Doug:
No, no, none of us do.

Cleo:
But my dad planted Wayfarer in, um, we finished planting in 2002, so-

Doug:
And where is ... where is Wayfarer?

Cleo:
So we are out in the Fort Ross-Seaview AVA.

Doug:
That's right on-

Cleo:
On the Sonoma Coast.

Doug:
Sonoma Coast where it's cold and-

Cleo:
Cold and rainy.

Doug:
Cold and foggy.

Cleo:
It's one of the wettest spots in California.

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
Yeah. So, um, so-

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
... actually that's ... so it's interesting, my dad, um, it's a ... it's another fun story, back in the 90's, when Helen was our winemaker.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
Um, she was one of the pioneers out in Fort Ross-Seaview AVA with her Marcassin Vineyard.

Doug:
That's right, she and her husband were at the ... right I remember that.

Cleo:
Exactly. And, um, and my dad, um, is ... he's likes to say, you know, "Um, every enophile eventually gravitates to the wines of Burgundy." Right, so he, you know, he started out drinking-

Doug:
Well said.

Cleo:
... when he is in his, um, you know, progression of, of, of falling in love with wines. He started out you know with Italian Shiraz ... I'm sorry, I'm not ... Australian Shiraz.

Doug:
Wh- Right.

Cleo:
You know, and, um, and, ah, and then drinking big ... you know, the Bordeaux's of France, and then, um, you know then over the years really gravitated to the wines of Burgundy.

Doug:
I'm, I'm, I'm with him on that one.

Cleo:
Yeah, they were-

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
... a little less expensive back then too, so yeah.

Doug:
(laughs). Yeah.

Cleo:
And so, um ... and so he and Helen, of course,-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cleo:
... um, had, had, ah, was making, starting to make Pinot Noir and things like that. Or, it was, he'd been doing it for a while.

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
And, um, and so said, you know, help me, you know, he at first had this crazy idea that he was going to buy vineyards in, ah, Burgundy, and Helen, his American and female, by the way, winemaker was-

Doug:
Yes.

Cleo:
... going to go over to France and make these wines.

Doug:
Oh, wow.

Cleo:
And so he actually bought two, um, ah, ah, Grand Cru, classified vineyards, um, that I'm not gonna remember the names of right now.

Doug:
Sure, sure. That's okay.

Cleo:
And, um, but, ah, one white, and one red, so. And then in the last minute turn of events, the local French people appealed to an obscure real estate law that gave them the right of refusal on this sale. And so-

Doug:
Oh, you're kidding me, they shut him-

Cleo:
... it ended up being purchased by the local people. And they-

Doug:
They shut him down.

Cleo:
... shut him down, sent him his money back.

Doug:
They shut him down. Oh.

Cleo:
Yeah, so he couldn't ... of course now you've got Chinese and all sort of, you know, foreign-

Doug:
Sure.

Cleo:
... investment in, ah, in France, but-

Doug:
That must have been frustrating.

Cleo:
In French Vineyards.

Doug:
I bet you that ... I bet you that ... I bet you that really rocked him a little bit.

Cleo:
You know, um, you know my dad doesn't get th- that, um, ruffled by adversity. I don't know, like I'm just thinking right now about when his, his house burnt down in 2011,-

Doug:
Yeah, I want to talk about that later.

Cleo:
... two days before my wedding.

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
Sorry, just to di- ... ah, and, and he was just ... he's so philosophical about things like that. When something like that happens, just like, "Oh, well, you know. It's just stuff." Or, "You know, it's just a vineyard, let's ... we'll move on." So,-

Doug:
I need, ah-

Cleo:
... that's something that's very, ah, I admire a lot about my dad, he doesn't let these kinds of things rock him.

Doug:
I need to go ... I need to go visit him and hang out.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
I need to hang out with him for a couple of days.

Cleo:
Um, so, so he and Helen turned their sights to Sonoma.

Doug:
Back to ... Okay.

Cleo:
Um, and, ah, and Helen found this property, um, that was a org- ... It was called Wayfarer Farm, owned by a couple of Hippies, that had moved out there as part of-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... the back-to-the-land movement. And they, ah, were growing organic fruits and vegetables. Um, they were running a school for wayward children. And, um, and they, ah, and they had their ... put their property for sale. And so my dad, ah, went out there with Helen and John, ah, she brought, ah, she was ... Helen's a great cook, so she roasted a couple chickens, packed a picnic, brought, um, a magnum of her Marcassin Chardonnay.

Doug:
Right, right.

Cleo:
And they sat out there and had this great picnic and my dad just fell in love with, with the land.

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
And I have to say, I've f- equally in love with it, I've also fallen in love with the land, it's just such a inc- ... it's just such a magical place. You know, you just really get a feeling for a place, you're just there, feeling the sun, breathing the air, just-

Doug:
Oh, you're in, in ... And the ocean's how far away? Just?

Cleo:
It's, ah, from there, it's just less than five miles.

Doug:
Yeah, so you smell the ... you smell the air.

Cleo:
So you're up in the coastal range, in the California sun, yet it's still, um, coastal cool region. So they planted, um ... So we planted the vineyard there, ah, finished-

Doug:
That's-

Cleo:
... planting it in 2002. Um-

Doug:
So that's then Chardonnay and Pinot?

Cleo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
How many acres? I'm curious.

Cleo:
So we have 30 acres planted.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
Um, we T-budded over a couple blocks to Chardonnay.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
'Cause Chardonnay is doing so well out there.

Doug:
Great.

Cleo:
So now we have, um, 8 acres of Chardonnay, and 22 acres of Pinot Noir.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
Um, and, ah, so for, for several years we were, ah, blending the fruit with, um, couple of Russian River Vineyard to make Pahlmeyer's Sonoma Coast Chardonnay, and a Pahlmeyer's Sonoma Coast Pinot Noir.

Doug:
Got it.

Cleo:
And, ah, but over the, um, you know in, in recent years my, my husband and I, especially, have been talking about how this site is so incredible, and what is ... what are the great Pinot Noirs of the world all about. They're about-

Doug:
But I'd say ... yeah.

Cleo:
... not just one vineyard, but about, you know, blocks within that vineyard, or sections of that vineyard.

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
And, and Pinot Noir more than any other varietal is all about a place, and it's-

Doug:
Place.

Cleo:
... a place.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cleo:
And so, um, and so we really felt like we had to have an estate label, ah, for this, to really showcase this incredible vineyard.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cleo:
So in 2012 we, um, bottle- ... or we didn't bottle, but we harvested, ah, the first vintage that would become the Wayfarer label.

Doug:
Wow!

Cleo:
So that was really exciting for me, because I got to ... while I, um ... I have a huge passion for carrying on what my dad started-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cleo:
... with Pahlmeyer. This is something, um, while I am forever indebted to him for having the vision to plant this vineyard way out there, which is pretty crazy in that itself.

Doug:
Yeah, it is.

Cleo:
It was really cool for me to be able to bring this brand to life.

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
Um, bring this ... put this wine in bottle, and, ah-

Doug:
It's your baby. So it's Pinot or Pinot and Chard?

Cleo:
Both.

Doug:
Both.

Cleo:
So Pinot Noir and Chardonnay.

Doug:
That's Wayfarer. So is that connected with Pahlmeyer, or is it a separate brand?

Cleo:
It's a separate brand, but it's part of the-

Doug:
Part of the whole thing.

Cleo:
It's under the Pahlmeyer umbrella.

Doug:
Got it.

Cleo:
Yeah, yeah.

Doug:
Well congratulations.

Cleo:
Thank you.

Doug:
That's cool.

Cleo:
Thanks. Yeah, so that's ... so that's, that's been really, um, you know, exciting and painful and all, all the above as, you know, as anybody who started a wine brand in recent years knows. (laughs).

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
So.

Doug:
And yeah, a new brand it's tough.

Cleo:
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Doug:
You know, the consu- ... it's, it's, it's tough out there. It's crowded, it's a lot of labels.

Cleo:
There sure are.

Doug:
There're a lot of labels. Um, yeah, Elias and I started a little side project called Eighty Four, which was ... it has been fun, it's making non-Shafer varietals.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
And it's ... we haven't, we haven't really hit it hard on the marketing end, that's, that's my challenge, um, but, ah, just because it's connected with Shafer doesn't mean it's a slam dunk, you know.

Cleo:
Yep.

Doug:
People are like, you know.

Cleo:
It helps though, right? 'Cause I couldn't imagine-

Doug:
It helps, it helps, yeah, it helps-

Cleo:
... doing this without have Pahlmeyer behind it.

Doug:
The Pahlmeyer connection.

Cleo:
Absolutely. (laughs).

Doug:
Yeah. It helps. It helps, but it's ... but it's a lot of work.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
Um, and very cool. So, I've ... a little homework here.

Cleo:
(laughs).

Doug:
So, ah, at the 2018 Pebble Beach Food & Wine Festival, you were a speaker on the, ah, the future is female, the next generation of American wine. You said that you were inspired by your mother, Helen Turley and Ann Colgin.

Cleo:
(laughs).

Doug:
I was curious about that. Can you tell me about each of those women and-

Cleo:
Okay.

Doug:
... why ... how they've inspired you.

Cleo:
Oh, wow. Oh, you, you really are putting me on the spot.

Doug:
It's a reg ... it's a regular question, I don't want to put you on the spot.

Cleo:
Um, well I, I mean my mother, um, my mother inspires me because, um, well I'm a mother now of, um, of two, ah, kids. My daughter's five and my son is three, and I'm having another baby in January.

Doug:
Congratulations.

Cleo:
Thank you.

Doug:
Very exciting.

Cleo:
Um, and so, but my ... it's never been a question for me, would ... whether or not I would have children. Of course, I always wanted to have children, and-

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
... it's never been a question for me whether or not I would have a career. I've always just known that, that's something I wanted.

Doug:
Got it.

Cleo:
Um, but then you ... but then there I am, pregnant with my first child and thinking, "Oh my God, oh my ... what? How does this work?"

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
And, "How do I ... how do I keep doing my job, but then also have a ... have a child?"

Doug:
Yeah, have a baby.

Cleo:
And then another one, and then another one. And, um, and I think that, ah, you know, it just works, like it's just you figure it out, ah, as with most things in life. And, ah, but having that example of my mother, who has always had a career, and who has, ah, been an incredible ... is a incredible role model to me right now for, um, for the, the type of mother that she was, um, or that she is. And so, um, so, so she's really inspired me in that-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cleo:
... because, um, it's not easy to, to have that balance, but to, to know other people, um, that, that have done it and make it work is, um-

Doug:
And she's a ... she's a-

Cleo:
It gives you confidence.

Doug:
She's, she's an interpreter, you said, she spoke numer- numerous languages.

Cleo:
Yeah, she's an interpreter and translator, so she, um, she moved ... so she works mostly when she does the, um, simultaneous, um, interpreting.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
She would work in, in New York at the UN a lot, and-

Doug:
Wow!

Cleo:
... but mostly in D.C. she worked for the IMF for a long time, and now she mostly works for the OAS, the Organization of American States, um, but when-

Doug:
That's some ... that's some-

Cleo:
... I was growing up-

Doug:
That's some big time stuff.

Cleo:
Yeah. Yeah.

Doug:
That's cool.

Cleo:
So when I was growing up she would, um, ah, or m- my parents divorced when I was three or so, and so-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cleo:
... when I would be with me ... I, I would go with my dad for like a week or so at a time, and my mother during that time, would go to the east coast and work.

Doug:
Got it.

Cleo:
Um, and then come back, and so it kind of divided the, that divided the time between my two parents like that.

Doug:
Sure.

Cleo:
And then when I started going to boarding school for high school, she moved out to the east coast permanently at that point.

Doug:
Oh, so you saw her out there.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
Did you ever get to go like to the UN and just hang out and all that stuff? I mean, or somewhere?

Cleo:
Never to the UN, but I definitely got ... she's taking me a few times, or several times, um, to go sit in the booth with her and, and see all the delegates and, and to see what she does, and-

Doug:
Oh, well that's gotta ... that's gotta be cool.

Cleo:
It's super cool.

Doug:
I know (laughs).

Cleo:
It's great. It's very, very cool. I wish I would've, ah ... that would have been cool, if I'd go ... have gone to the UN, um, when she was working at the UN.

Doug:
When she was working there.

Cleo:
But, yeah, she hasn't worked there for a while, like.

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
Um-

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
... and then ... and then when I talk about, um, when I s- ... when I mentioned Helen Turley and, ah, Ann Colgin. Um, I think of them as, um, you know, they, they're trailblazers in the industry for women. Um, I was actually, I was listening to your podcast with Cathy Corison, and-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... she mentioned how, um, well first she, she didn't get an internship one summer because, um, the winemaker hired her, but then the owners said, "Oh, no, we can't have a woman in the cellar."

Doug:
Can't have a woman in the cellar.

Cleo:
But then she ended up working there the following summer, but still I mean that's-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... that's, ah, that's difficult, and then when she ... I think the ... I think it was the same place, when she was working there, um, someone would tighten all of the, ah-

Doug:
Yeah, yeah.

Cleo:
All of the-

Doug:
All of the, ah, the gate valves on a tank so tightly, she couldn't, yeah.

Cleo:
All of the valves really, really tight.

Doug:
Not very-

Cleo:
And, ah, and so she was like, "Okay." So she always carried around a, a big wrench.

Doug:
Big wrench.

Cleo:
And so-

Doug:
You did listen to that think (laughs).

Cleo:
And, ah, and I, you know, it's kind of, um, to they talk about, um, ah, like a, like lawnmower parenting, so where parents will you know like mow this bea- nice easy path for their kids.

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
Right. And how well th- that's not a good thing though, you should let your kids struggle, right. But I feel like, um, I could use the same analogy for this. These other women have sort of mown a nice path for me, and some of ... all of my contemporaries to, um, to be able to do what we do without, without all that, um, all that difficulties. So, um, and I ... and I try not to take that for granted.

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
So that's why, that's kind of what I meant by, by, ah, by-

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
... mentioning people like, um, Ann Colgin or Helen Turley.

Doug:
Like Helen and Ann.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
Well they were good. I remember in ... you know I do remember Cathy, 'cause I knew her early on, and she was, you know, she was like there weren't any gals, any women in the cellar.

Cleo:
Yeah, especially in the production side. Yeah.

Doug:
In the production side, and, ah, Helen I never knew well, but I knew of her. And, and, she was in that same era and she was one ... She and Cathy, and that was about it.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
And, um, it was a kind of a, you know, it was also that era in time and things have-

Cleo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
... changed a lot, thank goodness.

Cleo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
And then Ann, I remember meeting Ann Colgin in Florida, she was a ... by the way, she was an art dealer, or-

Cleo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
... art broker.

Cleo:
Yeah, exactly.

Doug:
And, ah, and she and her husband Fred, at the time, sh- ... um, big wine lovers and they ended up moving out here and-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
... you know she was the one that really drove that, drove that production and drove that Colgin label, and-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
... succeeded famously, so.

Cleo:
Absolutely, I, I remember she used to, instead of signing a bottle, she would-

Doug:
She did-

Cleo:
... ah, put her lipstick marks on the bottle.

Doug:
Yeah, she did. She did.

Cleo:
I think that's so cool, like you're ... like she ... really like, like-

Doug:
She put it right out there. What and-

Cleo:
She put it right out there, she, like, um, like using her womanhood to her-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cleo:
I mean, which is beautiful, you know, um, women, like just using that to ... using her full power, I guess, as a woman.

Doug:
Exactly, that saying, this is what I am, right.

Cleo:
And I think that's something to be applauded, yeah.

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
Okay, thanks. I was curious about that.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
Um, So getting back to Pahlmeyer, you, the first line was the proprietary red, the Bordeaux blend, which was your dads dream.

Cleo:
That's right.

Doug:
But, um, uh, I know you've got other wines, tell me what's the rest of the lineups like?

Cleo:
Okay so, um, so of course there's the Chardonnay.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
Which was, um, made famous, or actually made Pahlmeyer famous, really, uh, with the Disclosure movie.

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
First vintage was '89 I believe. And then um, we added on a Merlot in the early 90's

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
And so these, in the, it wasn't until the late 90's though that my dad, um, on Helen Turly's urging decided to establish his own Napa Valley Vineyard, so

Doug:
Okay

Cleo:
Helen said to my dad, you know if you, if you really want to make world class wine, if you want to continue to make world class wine, you have to have 100% control, um, over the farming as well.

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
And so, um, so you need to have your own vineyard, and so she helped my dad find a property, uh, and it's uh, up on Atlas Peak.

Doug:
Okay

Cleo:
And so we have, we planted it in 2000-2001 we finished planting

Doug:
Okay

Cleo:
And so we have 72 acres there

Doug:
Oh great

Cleo:
Of Cabernet Sauvignon, uh, Merlot, Cabernet Franc, Petit Verdot, Malbec, um, and Chardonnay

Doug:
Oh you've got your own grapes

Cleo:
Yeah

Doug:
Isn't it the best?

Cleo:
Well, yeah, it depends on the year right?

Doug:
Yeah, well that's true.

Cleo:
Um, but, uh the, in the vineyard really has two different sections, one is East facing and it kinda comes down into the Wooden Valley side of the mountain

Doug:
Okay

Cleo:
And then the other part of the vineyard is on the Alas Peak side, it's West facing, um and it's literally on the top of the mountain, and you can see that section of the vineyard when you're driving up and down the trail

Doug:
Okay

Cleo:
Or Highway 29, um, and so, yeah, and so that is uh, the core of our Pahlmeyer Chardonnay Today, Pahlmeyer Merlot, and our proprietary red.

Doug:
Super.

Cleo:
Yeah .

Doug:
And then, um, so there's something going on with Dwyane Wade.

Cleo:
(laughs).

Doug:
So.

Cleo:
So.

Doug:
And I, you know, I know Dwyane Wade-

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
... 'cause I'm a basketball guy, so.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
So what's going on with Pahlmeyer and Dwyane Wade, and, and Gabrielle Union?

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
There's something going on.

Cleo:
So, ah, well this is, um, my husband Jamie Watson, um, is, ah, he's also a basketball guy. (laughs).

Doug:
Alright.

Cleo:
And he's a ... he's an attorney here in Napa.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
Um, but my, ah, my husband also's a huge passion for wine. Um, and so (laughs) I have to say, I didn't realize it when I married him, but you know how the saying about how woman always marries a man like their father, and a man marries a woman like their mother?

Doug:
Yeah, I've, I've, I've heard about that.

Cleo:
And I didn't realize it at the time, but, um, it's-

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
... obviously not true for everyone, but now I'm thinking, "Oh, my gosh. How did I not see that my husband and my dad are very similar people?"

Doug:
Oh, you know ... you know.

Cleo:
So like, like my dad, um, well my dad was an attorney.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
My husband's an attorney and, um, but he has a huge passion for wine.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
And his passion for wine really got started when I started working for Pahlmeyer. Um, and that's when his law career started, ah, 10 years ago. Um, but over the last 10 years my husband has just been, he's my, my wine knowledge and my industry knowledge has all been through working. My husband's has been through like reading, ah,-

Doug:
Reading and tasting, right.

Cleo:
... everything he can read about wine. Tasting, listening to podcasts, I mean doing, doing all that.

Doug:
Studying, yeah.

Cleo:
So he's studying, um, you know, being taking tasting groups, and-

Doug:
What's ... it's a, it's a hobby-

Cleo:
Totally.

Doug:
... as apposed to a career.

Cleo:
Yes, well so-

Doug:
And they're, they're really different.

Cleo:
... then my husband just figured out a way to do both. So, um, so he, ah, and, um, so had an opportunity, um, I forget how, through some contact that he had, to, um, to, ah, create this partnership between Dwyane Wade, um, and my dad, um, and create this, this wine label, Dwyane Wade, he's obviously a very, ah, accomplished basketball player.

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
But he's also, um, has, ah, lots of other products, um, and projects that he's involved in.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
Um, and, ah, and, and a ... and a passion for wine. There's a lot of Dwyane Wade's, ah, contemporaries in the ... in the NBA right now. There's a ... there's that big ESPN article about, um ... It's actually the most read ESPN article of all time, about the NBA players and their interest in wine, and tasting wine.

Doug:
Big time, I've seen ... we've seen it here also. It's kinda fun.

Cleo:
Yeah. Yeah, so, um, so a few years ago, or several years ago, um, they, ah, they started, started making wine together. Dwyane, um, has a huge following in China. China actually has more NBA fans than the U.S. has in population. So, um, and so Dwyane, ah, has, um, a shoe brand in China.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
And he'll go over there every year to promote that. And so they started out selling their wine in, um, in China. Um, ah, now they're doing a pivot with the new tariffs, um, and, ah-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
And they're expanding distribution here in, um, here in the U.S.

Doug:
In the U.S.

Cleo:
So-

Doug:
And it's called Wade Cellars.

Cleo:
Ah, and it's called Wade Cellars. Yeah, so this-

Doug:
And-

Cleo:
... is the brainchild of my husband and my dad.

Doug:
So he's one. Got it.

Cleo:
Yes.

Doug:
So that's kinda of just, it's their thing, you're not too involved there.

Cleo:
Exactly, I, I can't say that ... I can't take any credit for it (laughs).

Doug:
Yeah, well you've got ... you've got your hands full anyway.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
Um, cool, and, ah, recently, Wine Enthusiast, the 40, 40 most important people under 40. You're in that group, congrats.

Cleo:
Thank you.

Doug:
That's cool. They didn't ... they didn't call me, I don't know why.

Cleo:
(laughs).

Doug:
(laughs). It must be an age thing. Um, and you and Jamie, so you're married, you've got two kids, one of the way. How did you and J- ... how'd you and Jamie meet?

Cleo:
So, um, we actually have known each other since we were kids.

Doug:
Really.

Cleo:
Um, we actually have photos of, of us, ah, like, ah, when we were children together. I have an aunt and uncle who have a beach house in Oregon.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
In a little town called Neskowin.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
And, um, and then my husband's family has had a beach road just down the street from my uncle, my aunt and uncle's beach house, that his grandfather built in the '40s. And so he would spend summers there with his family, I would spend summers there with my family, and our families have just been friends for a long time, since it's such a small community. Um, and, ah, but we didn't see each other for maybe about 10 years, 'cause-

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
... we were in high school and college, and just not doing those sort of-

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
... family summers anymore. And, ah, and then we met, ah, as adults, ah, Christmas of 2005, and so then we ... and we've been together ever since. Got married in 2011, so we just celebrated seven years, um, two days ago, so.

Doug:
Congrats.

Cleo:
Thank you.

Doug:
That must have been wild, after 10 years.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
And then, you mentioned before, I've got to bring it up again, so two days before your wedding, wedding was going to be at your dad's house, Jayson's house.

Cleo:
Yup. Yup.

Doug:
And it burned down.

Cleo:
It burned down, yes.

Doug:
It burned down. How did ... how did-

Cleo:
Yeah, there was no wildfire or anything, it was-

Doug:
No wild fire. How did ... how did it burn? I'm curious.

Cleo:
It was ... there was some construction going on at the house, there was a big addition-

Doug:
Oh.

Cleo:
... being put on at the time.

Doug:
Oh, no.

Cleo:
And so, um, something-

Doug:
Something.

Cleo:
... happened and, ah, and the house, ah, went up in flames, and, ah, (laughs)-

Doug:
(laughs). Two days, two days before the wedding.

Cleo:
But you know, this is when you know you live in a ... in a great community, because we started getting phone calls from all sorts of different people. Um, my, my doctor called me, 'cause apparently he was a neighbor of my dad's, I didn't even know it. Um, he lived, ah, just up the street a little bit, and said, "Oh, you could get married at my house if you want to." Um, and I, I, I had several people offer their homes to us, um, and then-

Doug:
That's great.

Cleo:
... my dad, um, got a call from, ah, Chuck Wagner, he-

Doug:
Ah.

Cleo:
... said, "Hey, you can get married at, at Caymus Winery in-

Doug:
At Caymus Winery, that's sweet.

Cleo:
... Rutherford." And, um, and I was so overwhelmed with (laughs) at the time, that I thought, "You know what? This ... the winery is probably going to be the easiest switch to make."

Doug:
Sure.

Cleo:
'Cause they're setup for it maybe a little bit better. And so, um, and so, we ended up getting married at Caymus, um-

Doug:
What's the ... what's the date? Ah, you said it was-

Cleo:
It's October, first. Yeah.

Doug:
Me too.

Cleo:
Oh yeah?

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
Oh, wow!

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
Well congratulations.

Doug:
Hap- ... And to you too.

Cleo:
How many years for you?

Doug:
19, just turned 19.

Cleo:
19 years, wow. Wow!

Doug:
Yeah. Yeah.

Cleo:
So that was ... so that was nice, so it, it, ah, it was, ah, it was ... it was sort of a, a, a r- really nice, ah, silver lining to ... you know, to kinda have that outreach from your community at-

Doug:
That's pretty cool.

Cleo:
... a time of, of a such a sort of tragic time, but it was so ... I've mentioned this before, but I'm so impressed by my dad, he's always just, um, when things like this ... bad things happen in his life, ah, he never goes down into the depths of despair, he's just always thinks so positively, and so philosophically about these kinds of events. Um, it's very impressive (laughs). Very admirable.

Doug:
I'm gonna, as soon as we get done picking grapes, I'm gonna ... I'm gonna go see him.

Cleo:
Yeah.

Doug:
I'm gonna ... I'm gonna go say, "Jayson, it's Doug, I'm ... I need to spend two days hanging out with you."

Cleo:
Yeah. And it gives you an excuse to go to, ah, Hawaii.

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
(laughs).

Doug:
Which I'll take anytime. Um, so Cleo, you're, you're part of the, the next generation. You've got ... we've got in Napa Valley, we've got Peter Mondavi's grandkids, Monda- ... Robert Mondavi's grandkids, Staglin's got, you know, the next generation, Trefethen, others, you, yourself, um, do you know some of these kids?

Cleo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
Do you you run ... do you guys hang together? What's it like?

Cleo:
Absolutely, um, ah, I, I, I definitely ... you know I know Shannon, and Carissa, and-

Doug:
Right, right.

Cleo:
... um, good friends with Ariana Peju.

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
Um, and, um, yeah, and know, know many of them. Yeah, so I feel like I'm in very good company with, with the next generation.

Doug:
Wou- would to ... I, um, I would guess you guys have a lot of similar stories. It's like, "Ah, mom and dad won't let me do this, tut, tut, ta, ta."

Cleo:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know everybody has their ... every ... you know, every family has their own issues, right?

Doug:
Yes, we all do.

Cleo:
So, um, so, I would say, ah, you know, that, that all of our challenges are somewhat unique.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cleo:
Um, I was ... I, I ran into, um (laughs), ah-

Doug:
'Cause the parents are ... we're all ... they're ... you know, we're ... they're ... we're all ... they're all still around, and vibrant and active.

Cleo:
Yeah. Yeah. Well I ran into Will Phelps at a, a Napa-

Doug:
Okay.

Cleo:
... vintners event, and, um, and he was like, "Oh, are you here with your ... with your dad? Or anything like this?" "No, no, my dad ... my dad lives in Hawaii."

Doug:
Right.

Cleo:
He was like, "Oh, lucky!"

Doug:
(laughs).

Cleo:
I'm like, "What do you mean? So, like you mean my dad's lucky, 'cause he's in Hawaii, or I'm lucky 'cause my dad's in Hawaii?" He was like, "The latter." (laughs).

Doug:
The latter.

Cleo:
And not to ... not to, ah, call out Will, 'cause I know, sure, everything, I'm sure he loves his family, but, um, you know, ah, it was, um, it, it's just kind of funny. So, I, I, I don't have those kinds of challenges, but there's obviously all sorts of other kinds of challenges that go along with it.

Doug:
Who's the other ones? And, and, it's, ah, fascinating business, and the folks have made it here and been successful. Hey, listen, without a doubt, they're strong-willed people, they've had previous careers, successful women, men, and they've, you know, jumped on the wine, the-

Cleo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
... winery thing in Napa. They've built successful wineries.

Cleo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
They've got kids who are sharp, well educated, and you know, are-

Cleo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
... a lot like them.

Cleo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
And, ah, if you're doing the handoff, you know, it's ... that's, that's ... there's gonna be some challenges, but-

Cleo:
Yeah, I mean, I have to say here, I think a lot of, like you mentioned Shannon Staglin-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cleo:
... and Carissa Mondavi, I think, um, their parents have been pretty smart about it.

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
Um, so it sounds like, like, um, like they've had ... they've had ... having good experiences so far, and, um, ah, you know I just, um, ah, I hope that ... I hope that there'll be more and more of that-

Doug:
Yeah.

Cleo:
... in Napa Valley. But it's not easy. It's not easy to, to get to the next generation.

Doug:
So, I've got to ask you the question, since you're in that next generation, you, how's it look for Napa? You think we're in good hands?

Cleo:
You know, um, one thing that I, I l- ... I lament, ah, ab- about in Napa Valley is every time I hear about another winery being sold, or-

Doug:
Mm.

Cleo:
... brand being sold, and, um, ah, you know every family has their reasons, every-

Doug:
Right.