Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Welcome back everybody it's Doug Shafer with another episode of The Taste. Today we have longtime friend, Spencer Christian, who I must say, I knew him before I met him because I'd see him every night doing the- doing the weather-
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
On ABC TV here in the San Francisco Bay Area. Um, he's a familiar face, a familiar voice, and we finally met back in uh... I think I was... I was thinking about this Spencer...
Spencer Christian:
2003? 04?
Spencer Christian:
Exactly right, right around 03.
Doug Shafer:
And you were up here with Leslie Sbrocco.
Spencer Christian:
Leslie Sbrocco, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Who's been on The Taste early on, from about a year ago-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And uh, you were- you guys were filming a pilot for a food and wine show here at Shafer. We-
Spencer Christian:
That's exactly right.
Doug Shafer:
We did it late afternoon, early evening.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It was a fun time.
Spencer Christian:
It was a lot of- lot of fun, great experience, and what a venue; oh my gosh. It's just beautiful.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
I'm surprised the show never got on the air. But um... (laughs) But we had fun shooting the pilot. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I had a good time.
Doug Shafer:
Anyway, listen Spencer, there's so much we've got. You- you're a wine collector, everything you've done to educate and get people excited about wine-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You've got all your years on television, 13 years on Good Morning America-
Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Doug Shafer:
Meeting Presidents, famous people, we’ve got a story that you just wrote a book that came out in the last year, this blew me away called "You Bet Your Life"-
Spencer Christian:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
A memoir about a tough, tough gambling addition-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That you had some tough times, so a lot to cover. But let's go all the way back. Where were you born and raised? Talk to me.
Spencer Christian:
Well, I was born and raised in Virginia, and um, it's a beautiful state by the way.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
It- it has a- a lot of the features that-that California has. It has beautiful coastline and warm beaches, (laughs) like southern California-
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Spencer Christian:
It has the- the central part of the state which is, just all kinds of history, you know? Colonial history.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
Civil War history, and beautiful farmland. And then the Western part of the state it has mountains and actually has skiing. So uh, it's a beautiful state. But- but I was born in Virginia.
Doug Shafer:
And they've got... and now they're making some really good wines too.
Spencer Christian:
Oh yes, that's right. Quite a few good wines there.
Spencer Christian:
I was born in 1947.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
So um, the first 20 years of my life were spent growing up under the old system of racial segregation in the South because-
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Spencer Christian:
Because Virginia was... it was and is a Southern state, Richmond was the capital of the confederacy. So people who are n- not old enough to have been ar- around and remember what people of color went through-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
In those days have probably seen, you know news reports or documentaries or whatever, every- every day of my life for the first 20 years of my life I was a second-class citizen.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Spencer Christian:
Um, and I... you know, there were signs telling you where you could- could not go, you know, whites only, whites only, black people couldn't go to restaurants or the schools of their choice, or movie theaters, um... but my parents were remarkable people. They uh- pointed to every little step forward of the civil rights movement-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
As a sign of hope and progress. And they instilled somehow in my brother and me this positive, hopeful, aspirational approach to life that despite the daily adversity or indignities that we faced-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
That th- th- things were getting better and our society was moving in the right direction, that you can achieve whatever you want. So I grew up with that approach to life, and here I am.
Doug Shafer:
So tell I... that's (laughs) that's fascinating. So where'd your folks come from?
Spencer Christian:
They were born and raised in the same um dirt-poor little rural county that I grew up in in Virginia called Charles City County. There is no city there, it's all rural... um, my Dad was of that um... generation of young black men in World War II who-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Went and served their countries in the- in the segregated military-
Doug Shafer:
Oh man.
Spencer Christian:
But came home still treated like second-class citizens, not received as heroes. But they had this strong work ethic and this strong faith that you know, God will deliver you through all kinds of adversity, but you know, work hard and be a good person, treat other people the way you want to be treated, and um, you know and- and- recognize injustice. I mean be- feel outraged-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
About the unfairness of it all. But- but carry yourself with a- with a sense of dignity and strength and uh- and I know all these things sound corny, like (laughs) the little values that they-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Toss out in Sunday School.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, sure.
Spencer Christian:
But somehow, they all worked for me in helping me feel that I could... I could take the slings and arrows you know, I could- I could deal with the... the uh difficulties that I faced in my early life because no matter how... here's the thing Doug. No matter how... um, unwelcoming and unfair the outside world seemed to me every day, when I came home I came home to a home that was loving and accepting and supportive and encouraging and that gave me a feeling that I can- I can get through anything in life. I know it sounds weird but that was- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I... um... just kind of blown away.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I mean
Doug Shafer:
I mean for them, growing up the way they did, and to be uh- open-minded and positive and not be resentful-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And then for you and your brother, just one brother, right?
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, just one brother that's right.
Doug Shafer:
Um... to be- to be raised in that community where whites only-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Couldn't use the bathroom, can't eat at that restaurant, as you said the indignity-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It just kind of blows me away and um, the fact that your folks could have that type of home for you guys.
Spencer Christian:
Well you know, that wasn't the rule, that was the exception.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Actually, because many of my peers, many of the kids with whom I grew up uh- did feel that sense of despair-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And hopelessness. But the overall feeling was more one of despair and hopelessness. Like, how will I ever be able to overcome this? Will- will this society ever make me feel like I belong?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Um... but what my parents used to do was they were very uh, wise and instructive. We would sit down and have a family dinner in the evening, you know long after a long day of work for my dad-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
We'd watch the national news-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And if something came on about the civil rights movement and you could see you know, there was a step forward being made or the march in Washington was about to occur-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Or President Johnson was about to sign the Civil Rights bill into law, they would point to that, my parents would you see? Things are getting better.
Doug Shafer:
That's neat.
Spencer Christian:
There was reason for hope.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Spencer Christian:
So, they kept reinforcing those teachings, you know? It wasn't like a one-time thing... have hope, be positive, go out there conquer the world but-
Doug Shafer:
It was a daily-
Spencer Christian:
Reinforce- yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Fantastic.
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I remember sitting there with my folks watching the nightly news every night, that was like the thing.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know, everyone sat and watched it.
Spencer Christian:
It was.
Doug Shafer:
Um... so sitting round the house-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Just because I've got to ask the question... any wine at the dinner table?
Spencer Christian:
Ah, no, I had not discovered the joys of wine when I was young. My parents- we were Southerners, and the Southern alcoholic beverage of choice, the adult beverage of choice-
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Spencer Christian:
Was bourbon.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. (laughs)
Spencer Christian:
So on weekends, my parents would- would have- would make what they call a- a highball. (laughs). And it-
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Spencer Christian:
They'd pour a little bourbon into a glass, a couple of ice cubes and some Coca-Cola, and uh that... but I didn't discover wine until well, when I got to college I drank cheap wine-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
The late 1960's we were all drinking cheap wine. Um... but I uh developed a taste for scotch in my early -
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Years. Where I'm 22, 23... I was about 29 when I first... when I- when I had my wine epiphany. (laughs) Do you have time for me to describe it?
Doug Shafer:
Sure. Sure.
Spencer Christian:
Um, my-my wife and I, this is my first wife, we- we used to go out to dinner a lot and we enjoyed fine dining. Neither of us had a curiously about wine or a particular knowledge about wine, but whenever we'd go out to eat the server would always present a wine list and suggest something. And- and we'd listen to his suggestion and we'd follow that, but we didn't absorb any-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
Of the knowledge about wine. But one night we were taking a friend out to celebrate his engagement ... And we went to- we were at steakhouse in Baltimore, and I decided for this festive occasion I should order the most expensive bottle of wine on the wine list.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Spencer Christian:
Not knowing what that might be. And I looked at the list and there was- and this was in 1976-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
The wine that was the most expensive was a 1966 Château Lafite Rothschild. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
There's a name.
Spencer Christian:
Yep. So I picked it. Um, it was about 90 bucks. Can you imagine, spending only 90 bucks today for a Lafite Rothschild? (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that's -
Spencer Christian:
But- but from the moment the bottle was uncorked, the bouquet lifted out of the bottle and just drew me in. Um, and I- I was mesmerized.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Spencer Christian:
I'd never had a sensory experience like that before. And then I- I swirled the wine in the glass instinctively, no one had ever taught me to swirl-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Spencer Christian:
See, it just... I- I just somehow understood that if I swirled it the bouquet would keep lifting out of the glass.
Doug Shafer:
Wow, that's what happens.
Spencer Christian:
And I took a taste, and I was hooked. And within two years from that um, little wine epiphany I had accumulated... I had- I had built wine cellar in my home and had accumulated about 1600 bottles of wine. (laughs) So that's how I started my love affair with wine. 1976.
Doug Shafer:
That's amazing.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know, some people have moments like that. Um, and some people don't.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
A- a lot of times I get asked that same question, it's like "Nope, I don't have a moment."
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I have a- I have a lot of moments-
Spencer Christian:
A lot of moments, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
No one sticks out.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Well b- bouncing back to high school-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
What did you do in high school?
Spencer Christian:
Well-
Doug Shafer:
Sports, activities-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Drama, I mean d- drama probably, right? Because-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Most people think that, right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.
Spencer Christian:
Because, I've got this 48 year career in TV. But no, I was never attracted to drama-
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Spencer Christian:
Because I never... I always enjoyed um... I- I guess being bit of a showman, being myself... but I- I never- but I knew I didn't have the talent to play another character.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
So I wasn't attracted to acting. But I was... all through grade school I was you know, a high-achiever academically, I was a kid who wanted to prove he was the smartest guy in the class. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
But I also played baseball and basketball. Baseball was the only sport I really stood out in and I played baseball in college. Uh, even though I- I wasn't on athletic scholarship-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
So high- high school I uh- I was Student Council President, President of the Class, and on a baseball team, and um-
Doug Shafer:
Popular guy?
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, I think it was, I mean I was a little bit nerdy in that I always wanted to be, you know the - the A student. I always had a book in my hand, but at the same time I- I- I think I had enough of a sense of humor that some of the kids found me entertaining. And I played sports so I, you know, had enough l- enough jockey-ness in me-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
That I wasn't a total nerd. (laughs) So yeah, I was kind of popular.
Doug Shafer:
Good. That's great. And then, uh, I heard um... I don't think anybody knows about this. You tried out for the Orioles, Baltimore Orioles?
Spencer Christian:
Oh yeah. Well- well-
Doug Shafer:
When did that, what's that story?
Spencer Christian:
Okay. So I- I was in college in the late 1960's.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And um... I was smart enough to know that all- I was a good college ball player, but I was far, far, far from major league material.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
So let me make that clear right away.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
But there was a guy on our team, um, the third baseman who was just a natural; this guy was just a gifted athlete. And the Orioles were scouting him. So, one day there was scout there to watch this guy Devereaux.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And on that particular day I went three for five with two doubles and a home run. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Nice. Nice. Nice.
Spencer Christian:
So this scout simply told me, "Hey son, we're having an open tryout, you know, in this town called Petersburg Virginia. He said, "If you want to come we'll be there; we'll watch you." But it wasn't like they... really recognized major-league talent in me, he just told me if you want to come over-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
So I went to this open tryout, went through all the drills and everything, uh, of course I didn't make it. (laughs). But, uh I did hit one- I hit one or two balls to the warning track. So I showed that I had some, you know, had some power...
Doug Shafer:
Had some game.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Uh, and this- this experience I knew I would be talking about 50 years later. (laughs) and I am.
Doug Shafer:
No, I think it's great, it's pretty cool. So in college, you're... so you get oh.
Spencer Christian:
Oh yeah.
Doug Shafer:
After high school, you go to Hampton University.
Spencer Christian:
That's exactly right.
Doug Shafer:
Where's Hampton?
Spencer Christian:
Hampton is- is is actually in the town of Hampton Virginia, which is near the East Coast, it's near Virginia Beach.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And Norfolk-
Doug Shafer:
Norfolk area.
Spencer Christian:
So I graduated from high school in 1965. And you know about my background growing up in the old segregated South.
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Spencer Christian:
So, um, my entire life experience up to that point had been rigidly - a racially segregated life. Um... I- I had, yeah, I was a good student in high school-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And I did well on the SAT, so I had a scholarship offer to Columbia University, an Ivy League School. And my dad really wanted me to go there because, you know, you- you know, it's prestigious, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Sure, right.
Spencer Christian:
Your son, poor black kid from the Old South going to an ivy league school. But I- I think I made a wise decision. I knew that I wasn't socially and emotionally ready for that kind of environment. I was a sheltered, poor kid, you know, innocent and naïve, and uh although I dreamed of going to New York one day, I knew that -that big university-life probably was too big- too big a leap for me at that point. So I chose a safer route, and I went to one of the historically black universities, Hampton- it was called Hampton Institute in those days.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Now it's called Hampton University. Um, and I majored in English, minored in Journalism, and interestingly enough, like two years into my c- college experience, in 1967-68, all those racial barriers in the South were coming down. And you know, students- black students, white students, you know, his- Hispanic, Asian, whatever-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
kids were working together on political campaigns and- and they were- they were integrating the country. And by that time, um you know, I was working the campaigns and what not and, uh, and feeling kind of liberated.
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Spencer Christian:
So I think I chose the right academic path. Um, you know um, I'd like to be able to say, "Hey, I went to an Ivy League School." But, life turned out okay for me. Having - (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
No, I think it's what you do with where you go-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And I mean um... look you were right in the middle of it.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
The whole civil rights thing, everything.
Spencer Christian:
Oh, I worked in political campaigns, marched against the war in Vietnam-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Marched for women's rights-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
Civil rights, all of that. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So in college you're doing English and Journalism, what's- what was the plan? Was- was there a seed planted? Were you thinking you were going to go a certain direction? What was... was there a-
Spencer Christian:
I was hoping to become a print journalist, believe it or not.
Doug Shafer:
A print journalist.
Spencer Christian:
I had no interest in broadcasting, can you believe that? (laughs) I thought-
Doug Shafer:
Well I never thought I'd do a podcast, you know I mean I'm with you.
Spencer Christian:
Well there you go. Um, I- I think um... I was so fascinated by the way the news media covered these profound changes-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
That were going on at that time that uh, I decided I wanted to be journalist. I wanted to write for The New York Times, the Washington Post, and en- enlighten the masses-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
And all that. Um, it just happened that the first major interview I had for a serious job was at a television station in Richmond Virginia of all places. Um, it was a station that had hired the first African-American newscaster uh ever. and the - and the news director who hired this guy was like the Lou Grant character from the-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Old Mary Tyler Moore show.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
So when he met me, I- I recognized he had this gruff exterior but he was- he was a guy with a heart of gold. We sat down and talked for two hours, it wasn't even an interview. It was like getting- a getting-to-know you kind of thing. And he said," I think I see something in you. I think you can- I think you can go far in this business."
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Spencer Christian:
He took me to the studio, I had never been in a television studio before in my life, put me in front of a camera and had me read some news copy.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Without a teleprompter, I'm just, you know, looking down and looking up. And I was totally unintimidated, which is crazy. But I, for some reason I felt like "Yeah, I belong here." (laughs) and he said, "You're a natural, you're hired." And that's how my TV career started.
Doug Shafer:
That's how it started?
Spencer Christian:
1970, 71. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You know, come on. I thought there was a better story because I wanna- I wanna be on TV.
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So I- I- you know, I gotta go meet Lou Grant.
Spencer Christian:
Well the thing is... I shouldn't, Lou Grant, yeah. I should- I should point out I was hired to be a news reporter; that was my-my goal. I- I was inter- I- I am more known for doing weather than any other thing I have done in TV.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
But my passion then and- and even now my greatest passion uh is still news. And so I was a news reporter. I was two years into my stint as a reporter I was asked to fill in on short notice on weather because our weatherman there had quit uh unexpectedly, and I had done a lot of science reporting so... the management knew that I understood enough about the atmosphere that I could talk knowledgeably about weather. And from that- that little fill-in led to being offered the full-time weather gig which I resisted at first, because I said, "Oh no, I'm a- I'm a journalist."
Doug Shafer:
You're a journalist.
Spencer Christian:
"I do news." They said, "Well, you know, we could almost double your salary."
Spencer Christian:
I said (laughs), "Well, I'm a weatherman." (laughs) And of course, doing weather on a local newscast, is a more prominent role-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
You get more exposure than a reporter who's out in the field and you might see him or her a couple times per week. And so I'm-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, you're every broadcast.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, every broadcast.
Doug Shafer:
You're that familiar face.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, so I became well-known very quickly and then stations in bigger markets started offering me jobs. And within- within a very short time, I mean in just a few years I went from Richmond to New York. Boom, just like that.
Doug Shafer:
Well right. Richmond, I was reading your bio... you went to Baltimore for four or five years-
Spencer Christian:
Oh Ba- actually it was- it was under two years in Baltimore; it was a quick-
Doug Shafer:
Okay pardon me, it was two years 75 to 77.
Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Doug Shafer:
And then you're in New York, when?
Spencer Christian:
In 77.
Doug Shafer:
77.
Spencer Christian:
At the ABC flagship station, there WABC. So that was from 77 to 85. And during that period of time I was invited by the network to fill in a lot on Good Morning America. So even though I was working primarily for the local station there in New York and was well-known in the local New York Metropolitan area, I was getting you know... eight, ten weeks of exposure on the network every year on GMA. And then, finally in 1986 I joined Good Morning America full-time. And um, and that was amazing. Not only because it's a network show, but the management, the executives there at ABC news, told me wh- when I was hired on GMA, "Look. We want you to do the weather every day-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
Because that's an important role for us. And we're going to send you out in hurricanes and floods and blizzards and all that. Um, but we know you have other passions and other interests and you can pursue all those interests and do any kinds of reports or stories or interviews you choose to do in addition to doing weather."
Doug Shafer:
They gave you carte blanche.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, it was a rich experience; it was unbelievable. That's how I got to meet all these... you know, fascinating people from you know, Presidents to Kings and Queens and Academy Award winners and Super Bowl winners, and... (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I'm with you. Okay, some of the... pause for a sec, quick step back.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So you- you married Diane, first wife, right after college.
Spencer Christian:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
And then had a couple kids?
Spencer Christian:
Yes. We have two kids-
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Spencer Christian:
Jason and Jessica.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, super.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And so, now you're jumping in... I mean, was the goal to get on national TV, or was it to get a really good local gig? Probably the goal is national, right?
Spencer Christian:
Well- well yeah, and the goal generally is national. But when I- when I first broke into the business, even though I- I said earlier journalism is my passion, it really is.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
I became recognized really quickly and I started connecting that recognition with my involvement in political causes and social causes when I was in college. And I thought, well maybe I could just stay here in the local news, make a big name for myself in Richmond-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
And run for Congress one day. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
I seriously thought about that. But um, things started happening, opportunities started coming my way in- in TV so quickly; the offers from the bigger markets. I- I began to realize, you know I probably should stay with this and see where it takes me. Not necessarily thinking I'd end up at the network, but I knew I'd go somewhere bigger than Richmond and bigger than Baltimore.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
And then when the New York offer came, I thought, "Hey, this is it." And I was, I mean I- I- I want... I want it to be clear (laughs) then whenever I talk about how quickly these opportunities came, I'm not being boastful, I'm- I'm still kind of in awe a- about how quickly these opportunities came my way. So I'm trying to make the point that I'm a fortunate guy. I believe that I deserved those- you know, those- those opportunities. Um, but there are many other deserving people who never get them, you know? But anyhow.
Doug Shafer:
Now, you listen. You're a talented guy, right place at the right time-
Spencer Christian:
That's it.
Doug Shafer:
You- and you work hard. So... getting back to your wine epiphany-
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
That was right about when you were in New York-
Spencer Christian:
That's right, just before-
Doug Shafer:
Okay,
Spencer Christian:
We moved from Baltimore to New York.
Doug Shafer:
All right. So that's... so meanwhile now you're in New York-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You've got the wine bug.
Spencer Christian:
Yup. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
And when you get into things, you get into them big. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
But, so- so- so this is the mid 70's?
Spencer Christian:
Uh, late 70's now.
Doug Shafer:
Late 70's, all right.
Spencer Christian:
77.
Doug Shafer:
All right. So we got into business... we started making wine the late 70's. But I remember it was really tough to sell California wine in New York.
Spencer Christian:
It was.
Doug Shafer:
New York merchants were only buying imports. So...
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Talk to me. What were you drinking, what were you collecting, was there something like the Wine Spectator, were there wine clubs, how did you like learn about it, how did you get into it?
Spencer Christian:
That- that is- such a great question.
Spencer Christian:
Well, after that weekend experience with my one epiphany with the ‘66 Lafite, uh, I... as you pointed out, when I get into something I really get into it.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Spencer Christian:
So I went out and bought every book, uh I could find on wine that weekend. I went to bookstores and I bought Alexis Lichine, and Hugh Johnson and Michael Broadbent, and all those-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
All of those... yeah. And started reading - and then and I would read more about wh- wh- um, the great wine regions of the world, my curiousity was peaked so I would go out and buy different varietals. But I was buying mainly old world wines, I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
You know, because I'd been introduced to Bordeaux and I loved it. And I tried burgundy and I thought, "Ehh." Red Burgundy, and I thought, "I guess I don't like the Pinot Noir grape"-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
"as much as I like the Bordeaux grapes."
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Then I tried some white wines, and I tried some Italian wines. But I was buying mainly Bordeaux.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And- and apart from you know, reading all these books, I found a wine mentor.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
I was buying a lot of my wine from a wine store in Manhattan that was a block from the ABC Studios-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Spencer Christian:
Called 67 Wines and Spirits.
Doug Shafer:
I know that place.
Spencer Christian:
You know that place?
Doug Shafer:
I walked there - selling wine to them.
Spencer Christian:
And years ago, Jack Lang was the wine guy-
Doug Shafer:
Okay, okay.
Spencer Christian:
The late Jack Lang. He was my wine mentor, and I'd stop in there all the - you know, three days a week and we would just talk about wine.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
How fun.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, it was great.
Doug Shafer:
So you're getting into wine. You're in New York, in the big time.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Um... we mentioned it before, this is when - this is when the gambling thing kicked in.
Spencer Christian:
That's exactly right.
Spencer Christian:
In 1977 when I started working at WABC, uh, there were a bunch of guys in the newsroom who had a Friday night poker game.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Uh, that went on in the basement of the building after the el- eleven o-clock news. So I- I had played poker once or twice I thought-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Let me play poker with the guys.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Um, and wh- what started as a friendly game, (laughs) where you could win or lose a couple hundred bucks on a Friday night, morphed into a cutthroat game.
Doug Shafer:
Oh man.
Spencer Christian:
In which you could lose a thousand or two dollars on any given Friday night. Um, and, not being an experienced player I was losing more often than winning-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Spencer Christian:
So I- I that's when I was first... I don't know, not bitten by the bug because I wasn't really enjoying it that much, but I began chasing my losses, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Interesting.
Spencer Christian:
I wanted to- I couldn't wait to go back every Friday night to try to make up for what I had lost the previous Friday night. And at about that time, casino gambling opened up in Atlantic City, New Jersey.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's when it became legalized. Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. In 1978.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And A- Atlantic City is just over a two hour drive from New York, so uh I could easily get down there for a weekend getaway with my family; my kids were young then-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Spencer Christian:
My wife and I we'd drive down with the kids or another couple, spend the weekend, but... from the moment I first walked into a casino I was- I was hooked. Uh-
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Spencer Christian:
There was something electric about it, you know? There was a buzz-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
That I felt. And it was almost like a drug I guess.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
I don't do drugs, but I can imagine the high that I felt being in the casino is what a lot of people are chasing with substances.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
So I played craps, and blackjack, and all those games and, uh within a short time I had become a high roller. Within a couple of years I had begun playing at such high stakes and putting so much money at risk that I was getting, you know, the VIP treatment with the gourmet meal, restaurants in the VIP suites-
Doug Shafer:
Jeez.
Spencer Christian:
Limos, and you know everything is comped-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
Because they know you're going to give them enough action.
Doug Shafer:
So on the- the casino thing you became a VIP which means that you got the limos, you got the suite, you got the free dinners. Gourmet dinners. I'm assuming you're getting great wines and you being into wines what was that all about?
Spencer Christian:
Oh yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Was that kind of fun?
Spencer Christian:
Oh that- that part of it was- was kind of fun.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, all right.
Spencer Christian:
Even- even on a losing night in the casino-
Doug Shafer:
Okay (laughs).
Spencer Christian:
I knew I could go into the gourmet restaurant, order a bottle of, you know 1959 Chateau Latour or- or '61 Chateau Margaux.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Spencer Christian:
Uh, or uh an '87 Shafer Hillside Select. Uh (laughs) which I did.
Doug Shafer:
Right (laughs).
Spencer Christian:
So to make a long story a little bit shorter- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Um... within about six years, between 1978 and 1984, I had lost so much money and was so embarrassed; you know felt so... uh- uh silly and foolish and ashamed-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Of myself and didn't want people to know.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Spencer Christian:
Um, I was borrowing money here and there to cover my losses, and taking out extra mortgages on the home, and I fell behind on Federal Income Taxes. To the- to the point where a guy in a dark suit, something like out of a movie, showed up at my house one day, representing the IRS, tacked a sign on my front door saying, "This house- this home has been seized by the Internal Revenue Service for um... failure to pay back taxes."
Doug Shafer:
Oh, Spencer.
Spencer Christian:
And I uh had to move my family out of the house, the house was sold at auction by the- by the IRS. And we had to move into a rental property until I could recover.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
That was the beginning of nearly 30 years of uh being on this destructive-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Path of gambling.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, I mean, I- I- I was on the verge of financial collapse. Even though I was earning a lot of money, for the entire 30 years I was gambling. And you know, um, there were frequent trips to Vegas-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Spencer Christian:
And they fly me to the Bahamas, when- when Good Morning America would send me out on a Friday remote; you know they would send me to different places-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
All around the country. If I was anywhere west of the Mississippi River in that Friday broadcast I would take a flight to Vegas and- and gamble until Sunday and then come home. Or, fly my family out and call it a vacation.
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Spencer Christian:
And then um, if I was anywhere east of the Mississippi River on a Friday, I'd end up in Atlantic City as my gambling venue. Um, and I- I was the- the- the first few years it was exciting, it was fun, and you know, the high roller treatment-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Spencer Christian:
Was um, like a narcot- narcotic.
Doug Shafer:
Sure, you get to- it sucks you right in.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. But- but you know after 20 years or so it was just wearing me down. I had earned all this money and was taking care of my family but I was always drowning in debt.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
And you- you know, and always stressed out about how can I handle this and make it right without the world finding out?
Doug Shafer:
Oh, because you're- you're Spencer Christian on national TV, Good Morning America.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That... oh, that must have been a lot of pressure.
Spencer Christian:
It was a lot of pressure. And- and yet I- I think the way I was able to survive that pressure and- and even thrive under it... because pressure, the pressure is huge. I mean, and it's mind-bending, uh, is that I did have other things in my life that gave me joy.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
You know my family gave me joy, I was and I still am-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
A dedicated father. Um, I loved my work so I never missed a day for work because of gambling.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
I showed up every day (laughs) at the studio at 5 A.M. for GMA. Um, and you know I'm a person of faith so I continued the practice of my faith and you know feeling God's presence in my life, and his- his support. But despite all that, I was I- it took me all those years to get off that self-destructive path.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Well, I'm glad you're off it.
Spencer Christian:
I'm off it. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Speaking of destructive things, I want to come back. You mentioned going back on these remotes-
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So, you're the guy... (laughs) sorry. You're the guy in the rain slicker-
Spencer Christian:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Out on the- the corner street in New Orleans or somewhere-
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
With the winds- you know winds blowing you sideways, and- and there's trees blowing in the background behind you like down the street.
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I mean, I've met a couple folks like you, I mean they do the disaster reporting and the stories are classic. You know the one, is the one guy is a photographer, he says, "Well, I land I get the biggest SUV I can get, a couple of five gallon jugs of gas, a couple five gallon jugs of water, and I'm driving in on an empty freeway where the four lanes coming out are packed."
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
And um... tell- tell me. Any crazy, wild, dangerous?
Spencer Christian:
You just-
Doug Shafer:
I'm sure there's many, but-
Spencer Christian:
You described it perfectly, that's exactly what it's like. Let's say a- a hurricane was expected to make landfall in Charleston, South Carolina.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
So um, the... you know the airports start to shut down within 100 miles of wherever the storm is expected to hit.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Spencer Christian:
So, GMA would fly me into someplace, you know, maybe in Tennessee. And I'd get into a rental car and drive myself all night to that point on the South Carolina coast-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Spencer Christian:
And as you said, as I'm driving and everybody else is driving-
Doug Shafer:
Coming out-
Spencer Christian:
Out because they're being evacuated. And so then the big SUV with the- with the camera crew, and we'd stop along the way and buy non-perishable food items-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
That would last us two or three days.
Doug Shafer:
Smart.
Spencer Christian:
Because we know electric power is going to be out, you are not going to be able to get a hot shower, there won't be any restaurants.
Doug Shafer:
Oh man.
Spencer Christian:
So we're surviving on, you know, peanuts and peanut butter-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
And chips, (laughs) and crackers.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Um, and then there's the storm, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
You get there and it- it's only you and the emergency services people, everybody else is gone.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Spencer Christian:
And the wind starts to get stronger and fortunately, I don't know if it's fortunate but fortunate for the TV producers, a lot of times the storm would be at its peak when I was actually on the air. (laughs) The timing was so, here I am with one arm wrapped around a utility pole so I don't get blown away, and uh and struggling against the wind and the elements to describe what's going on. And uh, it's... the crazy thing is I was never afraid for my life. My whole- my thought was always, "Can I get out of here before all the roads close, before the bridges shut down; and will I be able to get home to see my family this weekend?"
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Spencer Christian:
And sometimes I didn't. Sometimes I was stranded in these places for two or three days until power was restored and the flood waters receded.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Spencer Christian:
(laughs) And I was- I was in fourteen hurricanes.
Doug Shafer:
Fourteen.
Spencer Christian:
Fourteen.
Doug Shafer:
Fourteen. (laughs)
Spencer Christian:
And um, and then there were floods and blizzards and all kinds of natural calamities.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) And you'd go- you'd go find them. Oh.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, they called me... what they called me the Master of Disaster. (laughs) I was the guy Good Morning America sent into every, uh, disaster. And uh, even earthquakes which are not weather related-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Spencer Christian:
Even though we- we're to think earthquake weather here... I was on a World Series assignment in 1989, during the Bay Bridge World Series and the Loma Prieta earthquake hit.
Doug Shafer:
You were on that one?
Spencer Christian:
I was here and I had covered the first two games, which were in Oakland. And you may recall there was a day off, and then the day that game three was supposed to be played was the day Loma Prieta occurred. So I thought, "Oh, I'm going to be smart this time. Traffic is crazy here in the Bay Area, I'm not going to try to drive down to the ball park to Candlestick in time for the start of the game, because my- my assignment was to do post-game interviews."
Doug Shafer:
Oh, post-game.
Spencer Christian:
So, when the earthquake hit I was on the 19th floor of the Saint Francis Hotel, in Union Square.
Doug Shafer:
Oh man.
Spencer Christian:
Can you imagine being up in a high-rise building like that?
Doug Shafer:
Was it moving? It was moving.
Spencer Christian:
Oh gosh... it, yes. It was- it was terrifying, I thought that I was going to die right there. But anyhow I you know...
Doug Shafer:
Elias and I were at the game.
Spencer Christian:
Hmm?
Doug Shafer:
Les and I were at the game.
Spencer Christian:
Oh you were?
Doug Shafer:
Someone gave us tickets, right at the last minute, it was... the Giants versus the A's, you know, local. So we went, we had just finished harvest-
Spencer Christian:
Wow.
Doug Shafer:
And our sales guy said, "Hey, I got two tickets, you guys have been working hard, go- go see the game." We're like cool. Beautiful day in October, we get down there early, everybody's you know, tailgating, getting crazy. We- you know we split a six-pack; all we could take was three beers apiece because we were so tired from harvest.
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
But it was harvest time. But that's why we- we were just sitting in the sun in the parking lot.
Spencer Christian:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
Because it was just like, you know, after harvest it's always a big let-down.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And we're in there and that thing it shook and um...
Spencer Christian:
Oh gosh.
Doug Shafer:
And it like we got out of there real fast. And uh, it was long drive home.
Spencer Christian:
What- what was your first reaction? I mean were you frozen, were you-
Doug Shafer:
Uh, it was funny, it was um... the noise was deafening and I thought people were slamming their feet, like stamping. I looked up and no one's feet were moving, it's like...
Spencer Christian:
Oh no.
Doug Shafer:
And the- the light tower started really swinging.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It was over. And then everybody cheered. The power went out but it was still daylight.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And still it was five o'clock and October it's still daylight. Um, everybody cheered because it's like, "Hey, San Francisco had lost the first two games and it's like okay, we had an earthquake now we're going to come back and beat you guys Oakland."
Spencer Christian:
Right, right.
Doug Shafer:
But then it was like twenty minutes, nothing going on, no one knew what was happening.
Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And a guy next to me had a little mini TV. I heard him go "Oh no." I look at the TV and it showed the section of the Bay Bridge down.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And that's when, you know, I said "Elias, just follow me; we're out of here."
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So we got out. I said... well you know.
Spencer Christian:
It's...
Doug Shafer:
That was a long night.
Doug Shafer:
19th- 19th floor. Ooh for you.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, you know I ran down 19 flights of stairs, uh, you know. It was only a 15 second quake, but I probably got down eight or ten floors before you stopped shaking. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You probably start moving right away when you got out of that building, yeah.
Spencer Christian:
It was crazy. But I- I've had so many assignments like that, where you know, the- the thing that you initially went there for became a different story.
Doug Shafer:
Becomes something else.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Interesting.
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
That's cool. And then 1995, you started a new show.
Spencer Christian:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
On Home Garden TV, HGTV, and tell me about that.
Spencer Christian:
Well, I was... it was a wine show, it was called Spencer Christian's Wine Cellar. And um... you know I had talked so much so Good Morning America during the little casual chat segments about my passion for wine. Um, that viewers knew that I was a wine enthusiast.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
And whenever we'd do a cooking segment, the chef would always have me there to talk about food and wine pairing. So, out of the blue I got a call one day in 1994 from someone representing this new network called HGTV, Home and Garden Television. And, uh, I was asked if I would... if I might be interested in hosting a show about wine, a show that would be designed to kind of you know, take the intimidation factor away and make wine more accessible-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
To... and I said, "Yeah, you've got the right guy." We just did a deal like that. It was another one of those opportunities that just came out of nowhere.
Doug Shafer:
Well nothing had been done like- on TV with wine before, I don't think, right?
Spencer Christian:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
It was the first one.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, it was the first. And it- it ran for five years.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
It- it- I think three years into the running, yeah around 1998, um, Scripts Broadcasting, which is the parent company of HGTV, bought the Food Network-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And- and moved my show over to the Food Network for its final two years. Uh, but then at the end of that five year run, the Food Network people (laughs) strangely enough were not interested in having a wine show on the Food Network, so the show didn't get renewed. Um, you know, because wine and food go together you'd think-
Doug Shafer:
You'd think so-
Spencer Christian:
It would be a perfect marriage, but...
Doug Shafer:
What did you do on the show? What were some of the things you did?
Spencer Christian:
Oh gosh, we would- we would go to wineries-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And talk to vintners, winemakers, about... first of all about um, you know, the wine making lifestyle. I mean, family wine makers-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Like the Shafer family, the Mondavi family, the Groth family... we'd talk about you know, the family legacy and the history and why they had such a passion for what they do. You-
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Spencer Christian:
Much like you and I have talked many times. But we'd also go to restaurants sometimes and do segments with chefs on food and wine pairing. We would uh, talk to, uh, sommelier about wine etiquette. You know, like-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
What do you do with your cork?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
I mean, if you sniff the cork, does it really tell you anything about what the wine is like? (laughs) Um, so what's proper wine etiquette? I mean, we did segments in wine stores about, uh, cultivating a relationship with a wine merchant as I did with Jack Lang.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Um, if you have an interest in wine and- and want to learn more about wine and not feel foolish, not know what to do when you pick up a wine list, or walk into a wine store... get to know a wine merchant. They- they love to talk about wine, and they will help guide you and you know. So we did segments like that.
Doug Shafer:
You were doing, in- and... and I'm of the mind I think we still need that.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And I'm just kind of- kind of amazed there's nothing like that on TV.
Spencer Christian:
I am too.
Doug Shafer:
And- and you jumped into this thing, I... what was the motivation, there was no template for you to work from, to- to come up with it, I mean, how'd you come up with it and what was the whole process to figure that one out?
Spencer Christian:
Yeah uh well, you know it was... um, it was on-the-job-learning is basically- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
What it was. But I had a- a brilliant producer, um, HGTV had uh, done a contract with this production company in LA called um... oh gosh, Gary Grossman, I forget his partner's name, but- but there were two guys there; one was Gary Grossman. And- and they had a producer in-house who was assigned to my show, her name was Kathy Katz. And Kathy knew very little about wine going into this, so we had a couple of meetings where we- I talked to her about my passion for wine.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Very much like you're talking to me now. And she was taking notes-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Spencer Christian:
And um, th- there was... she said there was something infectious about the way I talked about how much I loved wine that stimulated her interest in it. So she started reading about wine, and sampling wine, and tasting wine-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Spencer Christian:
And as we started doing this show, um, my TV experience combined with her production experience and our shared passion and curiosity about wine led to ideas that just worked on the air. And uh, I- in the first show, it was- it was... I think it started with me walking down between two rows of vines uh, at um... oh, um, S- St. Supery-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
And um, we sh- we filmed this in like 1994, the show hadn't even gone on the air yet.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And I said, "You- you know, people often ask me what is it about wine I love?" and I just started talking spontaneously about my passion for wine, I talked about that one epiphany I described to you-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
With the Lafite and um, and I just... (laughs) and the camera just followed me you know? And when it was over, Kathy said, "That's it, that's what's going to work for us." She said, "That natural enthusiasm and spontaneity," she said, "And if we can carry that over to maybe doing segments with chefs or segments with winemakers, or going into the barrel room..." she said, "As long as, you- you know, your passion always is at the forefront, uh it's going to bring people in." And it did.
Doug Shafer:
It did.
Spencer Christian:
It did.
Doug Shafer:
And that response was -
Spencer Christian:
Oh my Gosh. People would stop me on the street and say, "You know, I never thought I'd watch a show about wine. But you know, I always wanted to know how, you know, when they give me that wine list what sh- what should I be looking for?"
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
"What does that label tell me about what's in the bottle?" And they- they would say, "Would you explain it to me? And now I don't feel intimidated." And we would- um sometimes decide what the next segment would be based on what people were saying to me in- in the public, you know?
Doug Shafer:
On the street.
Spencer Christian:
Sometimes they would- they would offer suggestions. Like, "Why don't you do something you know, with a chef about cooking with wine?"
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Okay. You know? (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Spencer Christian:
We'll do that.
Doug Shafer:
Oh how cool.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Well, you were- you were a pioneer, you still are. So, congratulations.
Spencer Christian:
Well- well I- I guess we became the template for others. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You did, you did. And I- I'm not sure what the... it- it's seems like wine doesn't work on TV.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, I guess not.
Doug Shafer:
I don't know, what do you think?
Spencer Christian:
I don't- I guess the reason is, I've heard this- this opinion-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
That uh, food... cooking works on TV because people will watch the cooking demonstration and feel like, "Okay, I can try to duplicate that at home."
Doug Shafer:
I can go do that, I can stir that pot, right.
Spencer Christian:
But they- they can't... they don't have that same feeling about looking at a wine show. They're not going to make wine at home.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
But I still feel like we offer them useful information. You know, we'll talk about the joys of wine and the wine experience, and how it's more than just sipping a beverage, it's about you know relationships and ... but so far, no wine show on TV has really made it big.
Doug Shafer:
I think yours was the longest.
Spencer Christian:
Probably.
Doug Shafer:
I think it was.
Spencer Christian:
A five year run.
Doug Shafer:
Five years, yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Look at all the things you do. How do you - do you sleep at night?
Spencer Christian:
(laughs) You know, I- I don't require a lot of sleep, but if I get six hours... uh, I'm fine. Uh, sometimes after six hours... this morning for example. (laughs) I got up this morning at about six after having gone to bed just before midnight. And my wife said, "How'd you sleep hon?" And I said, "I slept really well." She said, "You didn't wake up at all during the night, you just-" I don't normally snore.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
She says, "You've been snoring last night." (laughs) I guess I sleep pretty well. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So, 1999.
Spencer Christian:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
A big year for you.
Spencer Christian:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
You moved from uh Good Morning America out to the San Francisco Bay Area, to a local show here. Um, your HGTV show ended.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Your marriage ended.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Um, tough time. What was... how'd you get through all that?
Spencer Christian:
You know, I'm still not sure. But I did get through it. Um, 1999 was probably the most difficult year of my life.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Because um, as my final contract at Good Morning America was expiring at the end of 98-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Um, the- the management, there was new management-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
This wasn't the management that had originally hired me-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Made it clear to Charlie Gibson, Joan London, and me; that was, we was-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
We were that main team for so many years, that they were looking to build a new team for a new generation of viewers.
Doug Shafer:
Mm.
Spencer Christian:
And we weren't treated unkindly, it's just that we were forewarned that at the end of this contract there won't be a new one. So by the time mine expired, uh Joan was already gone from the show and so was Charlie Gibson, although they eventually brought him back.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
So, it was certainly a letdown even though I was treated nicely, uh who wants to leave a show like that-
Doug Shafer:
Oh that's got to be-
Spencer Christian:
Or a job like that? Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's got to be tough.
Spencer Christian:
So, um, so ABC7 KGO in San Francisco, an ABC owned station, made me an offer to move here. Uh for which I'm very grateful, been here for 20 years now. But in- in terms of visibility, prestige and certainly income, it's a huge step down to go from a network to a local news. So, here I am with all this gambling debt... (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Oh that's right.
Spencer Christian:
Right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah?
Doug Shafer:
I'm sorry, how could I forget that. (laughs)
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, I've still got massive gambling debt.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
1999 as I was moving here I had credit lines at 14 casinos in Las Vegas and in Atlantic City, and they were all tapped out. Um, so I'm moving here with all this debt and trying to juggle it, behind on Federal Income Taxes again.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Losing this wonderful job that I loved so much and moving to a place I love but with severely reduced income.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And also, at that time going through a divorce from my first wife. Uh, you know, people always ask, "Well, was gambling the reason?" Well, it- g- gambling had to be a reason she wanted to leave the marriage but it wasn't the reason.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And out of respect to Diane, my first wife, whom I- I love dearly and respect so much, I uh- I won't' share all the details of why she wanted to leave the marriage, but she did.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And- and I reached the point where I realized her mind couldn't be changed, so we went through this amicable divorce, but it was still painful-
Doug Shafer:
Still painful.
Spencer Christian:
Still stressful, and expensive.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
So now I'm out here and I- and I- felt lost the first year I was here. I was 3000 miles away from everything and everyone that had been dear to me for so long.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
And even though I'm in this beautiful place and I'm close to the wine country, which I dearly love, and I'm cultivating new friends, I've got all this stress that I'm dealing with, money I owe to these casinos and you know, they're going to deposit these markers I've signed-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
In my- my checking account, because I don't have the money to pay them off. So I ended up going through a- a bankruptcy that um, um in the year 2000 I believe it was, 2000 or 2001.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Um, that didn't get rid of my- my ordinary consumer debt, you know I honored those debts, but it wiped out the casino debt. And um, and I- I quit gambling for about... almost three years.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And the um, the longer I was away from it the less I missed it. The- the more I was you know, really embracing my new life. So now we're talking 2001, 2002...
Doug Shafer:
And you got remarried in there too, right?
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, got- got remarried.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Actually, I got remarried just 12 years ago, but it was to the women who became my sweetheart around 2002. To Lynn.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay, okay.
Spencer Christian:
To Lyn.
Doug Shafer:
Thank-you.
Spencer Christian:
So by 2002, Lyn and I are together and- and I'm getting back on my feet financially a little bit, and emotionally a little bit. Um, (laughs) but then in 2003, remember when the televised tournaments uh- poker tournaments became a big deal? You know, people were watching the world series of poker?
Doug Shafer:
I do remember that, no, don't tell me... come on...
Spencer Christian:
I- so I- so I- I had thought I had quit gambling, and I had this relapse and started playing poker in 2003, 2004. I- I don't know why, I just fell into it.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And so I didn't, it- it wasn't quite like the old high-roller stuff, where you know they comp you the suites-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
And the rooms and all that. But I was hooked on the- on the game.
Doug Shafer:
On the game.
Spencer Christian:
So... just like my- my uh- my stage one of my gambling (laughs) now I'm on stage two.
Doug Shafer:
Stage two.
Spencer Christian:
And I've got to play at higher stakes. It wasn't enough for me to go to a low-stakes game and just enjoy the challenge. I had to play for higher stakes and higher stakes, looking for that bigger thrill, that bigger win. And of course, that led to another downward spiral.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Spencer Christian:
So for the next 10 years, I had this downward spiral financially, once again. And- and I still had this gambling addiction, you know it- it was expressing itself in a different form-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
But I was just as addicted as I had been. So... the turning point came around, uh 2012, 2013. My daughter Jessica, who is now the mother of my two awesome grandsons-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Noah and Zach, uh Jessica came out to visit me in 2012. And she had just got engaged to Josh, my wonderful son-in-law. And she basically said this to me. She said, "Dad, you know that I love and admire, I love you and admire many things about you, and I think you're a person of great character and I- I really admire the- the things you've overcome in your life." She said, "But uh I'm getting married soon as you know, I'm going to bring grandchildren into your life, and I want you to ask yourself if this is the behavior you want to model for your grandchildren."
Doug Shafer:
Mm.
Spencer Christian:
She said, "If you were to have a heart attack and die at the poker table one night, do you think people would remember the good things about you, the positive things-"
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
"and all your accomplishments, or would they remember that you were just a degenerate gambler?" She said, "I- I- I hope you can turn your life around."
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Spencer Christian:
That was unbelievable. You know, you- you talk to people who have these sudden religious conversions, and they- they just- just call it a come-to-Jesus moment-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Spencer Christian:
I had a come-to-Jessica moment, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Right then and there, I knew that I wanted gambling out of my life.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Spencer Christian:
And that's where the turnaround began. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Jessica, what a brave girl. Wow.
Spencer Christian:
Really brave, really brave. And um, so I, I'm often asked to just put into a few words uh, how it is I was able to turn it around. Doug Shafer: Right.
Spencer Christian:
And I say I was saved by love. I was saved by love. My, my daughter loved me enough that she was willing to take the risk, that she could alienate me or offend me or, you know, tick me off. But, but she just... But any, but she did it lovingly. She didn't lecture me. Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Spencer Christian:
You know? She didn't scold me. Doug Shafer: Right.
Spencer Christian:
She started by saying, Dad I love you and I admire you but I'm concerned. Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And how could you not, re-, how could you not respond in the right way to that. How can you not be receptive to that message? Doug Shafer: I'm with you.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Doug Shafer: Children are funny that way, aren't they? (laugh)
Spencer Christian:
(laugh) Yeah. (laugh) They really are. Doug Shafer: I have a few similar stories. So I really appreciate your openness and forthcoming on, on your life, Spencer, and, and, and your addiction, the gambling addiction and you wrote this memoir, book, called You Bet Your Life, which outlines the story. Why'd you do it? What were, what was, were you trying to get a message across, was it just a ...
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, I- Doug Shafer: What was the motivation or what was the goal?
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. I- Doug Shafer: Or if there is one.
Spencer Christian:
I, oh no there was one. I, I think there basically two goals Doug um, one is self-serving. Doug Shafer: Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And that is that it was ah, I needed that cleansing confession. I needed to just go public. Doug Shafer: Okay.
Spencer Christian:
To relief myself of the guilt and the shame that built up in me over this thirty year period. Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
I mean I, um, oh yeah I have high self esteem and all that but ah, I was carrying so much guilt and shame because I would think about the person I always believed I was meant to be ... Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
But I wasn't really, I hadn't become that person. You know I had ah, been so wasteful and willful and um, irresponsible and ah, I was just ashamed of myself. So, I felt, you know, if I know for sure now this thing is out of my life, I don't want any part of it anymore. Ah, if I just tell the world, you know I was living a double life. And um, and, and um, and I'm done with it.
Spencer Christian:
It relieved me of all that guilt and shame. But, second purpose that it serves is, that it's an example for other people who might be facing any kind of, you know, difficulty or craziness in their lives, that you can turn your life around. Takes courage. Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Takes strength. And sometimes it takes support. A lot of support from other, other people. Um, but you can do it. And ah, I guess I, I want people to know if this, this guy they use to see on TV every morning, on national TV, who seemed to have a perfect life, but didn't have a perfect life ... Doug Shafer: Right.
Spencer Christian:
If he has problems like this and can talk about em, maybe I can talk about my problems too, you know? Doug Shafer: Which is the first step to fixing em.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Doug Shafer: Wow. Well you're a liberated guy?
Spencer Christian:
I am. I am now. (laugh). I certainly am. Yeah. And ah, the, the, you know, the responses to the book have been amazing. This book is never gonna sell a million copies, I'm not gonna get rich from it. Um, but it has been richly rewarding if I may make that ... Doug Shafer: Sure.
Spencer Christian:
... little play on words. And that people write me, send me Facebook messages or walk up to me in, in person, in, in the public and say, you know I read your book, wow. It really helped me because I had a problem like this or it gave me the courage to go talk to my spouse or my sibling. Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Doug Shafer: Isn't that something.
Spencer Christian:
So, yeah. Doug Shafer: Well congratulations.
Spencer Christian:
Thank you. Doug Shafer: That's great.
Spencer Christian:
Thanks. Doug Shafer: And back to, back to wine. Um, you got a new show.
Spencer Christian:
Yes. Doug Shafer: Sips with Spencer which you were nice enough to put me on about a year ago. I appreciate it. Tell us, tell us about Sips with Spencer, what's that all about?
Spencer Christian:
Well, that's still one of our most memorable segments. Ah, the segment we did. No actually it was just ... well you know. Doug Shafer: It was fun.
Spencer Christian:
We had a lot of fun. We were just being ourselves. Doug Shafer: Right.
Spencer Christian:
Um, so the, the, it's similar to the, the show I did years ago, um, in that I'm introducing, the viewing audience, to the joys of wine. In all the ways that we enjoy wine, you know? And I, I wanna ... we, we go into ah wineries, like yours ... Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And talk to the people there and the families there and the vintners and the vineyard managers and the winemakers about everything that goes into taking the wine from grape to glass. But beyond that ah, we do some of those other things I talked about earlier. Ah, like food and wine pairings and ah, I did a segment at Meadowood, with ah, with the executive chef there. Doug Shafer: Oh great.
Spencer Christian:
And the Sommelier. And I helped the chef cook a meal and the Sommelier gave us guidance on, on pairing the various courses with wine. And we've gone into wine shops and try to help deliver the message that looking for just the right wine shouldn't be an intimidating experience, if you're not a knowledgeable Oenophile. Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Um, so it, it's you know, all those things. It's, it's about the total enjoyment of wine and we're looking for a ah, long term sponsor. You know we had limited sponsorship early on. We had eight half-hour episodes. Doug Shafer: Right.
Spencer Christian:
Yours was one of the first and um, then that sponsorship arrangement expired and we've got limited sponsorship for a couple more segments here and there. So we're still looking for a long, long term deal that will give us a whole seasons worth of programs. Doug Shafer: Okay, good.
Spencer Christian:
There must be somebody out there. Doug Shafer: Well maybe some, yeah one of our, one of our loyal listeners, you know, contact Spencer.
Spencer Christian:
There you go. Doug Shafer: We need a sponsor. Well good and ah, how about, are you still collecting, you know, as far as wines?
Spencer Christian:
Ah I am, but, but my collection is way more limited than it was back in the day. (laugh) Back in my New York days when I was making the big bucks and had the, the wine cellar in the house and all that. Um, I could, I could ah, I could keep a collection of 15, 16, 1800 bottles. Ah, I think Lynn and I probably now have about 500 bottles. Doug Shafer: Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Roughly. Um and you know, as we, as we consume the wine we replenish the stock. Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And, and, course my, my tastes have branched out beyond Bordeaux. Doug Shafer: Yeah, that's good. That's why I was curious about that. Is it still Bordeaux or you, you're, where we, where, what's our interest these days?
Spencer Christian:
Well Bordeaux will always own a special place in my heart because, you know, it's like your first love. But um, and ah, here in Napa Valley it's like being, you know, in Bordeaux 2.0 because (laugh). Doug Shafer: That's true.
Spencer Christian:
Right? And so I get to enjoy the, the Bordeaux family of grapes but, you know, from a different terroir and a different, slightly different character. Um, and, and so I have a lot of, yeah, a lot of Napa Valley Cabs ... Doug Shafer: A lot of Cabernet's, yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. And Cab-based wines. Um and in the last five or six years, I've developed a great passion for the wines from Tuscany. Oh my gosh, I love what they do with the Sangiovese grape. Doug Shafer: Yeah. I'm with you on that one.
Spencer Christian:
Brunello and the Chianti Classico Reserva. And the Super Tuscans, which are made from the, many of em, from the Bordeaux grapes. Doug Shafer: But some, sometimes I, I love those but boy just the, just the Chianti, the classic, the reserves are just great.
Spencer Christian:
They're, they're amazing. I had one at dinner last night. Doug Shafer: Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Doug Shafer: There you go. Well good. So Spencer you've got, we can still see you weeknights on ABC.
Spencer Christian:
Yup. Doug Shafer: Doing the weather.
Spencer Christian:
Doing the weather, um, Monday through Friday ah, on the 4pm and 6pm news. Doug Shafer: Got it.
Spencer Christian:
On ABC-7. Um and ah, and, and occasionally, ah Sandhya Patel does the weather at five and eleven, those are the two half hour newscasts that I do the weather four and six, one-hour newscast so if one of us is off then the other one does all the shows. Doug Shafer: All four of them.
Spencer Christian:
So once in a while you'll see me on the 11 o'clock news. Ah and then we have Drew Tuma, who is our ah, weekend ah, weather anchor. Ah, meteorologist. When Drew is off sometimes um, I'm the only person available to, to do a weekend fill in. Ah, that happens maybe four, five times a year.
Spencer Christian:
But my, my regular schedule, Monday through Friday, four and six p.m. And, and I'm loving it. I mean I, I'm 72 and a half (laugh). Doug Shafer: Man, you don't, you don't look 72 to me. You look good.
Spencer Christian:
Well, thank you sir. Well, red wine is a preservative. You know that. Ah, but you know I still um, really enjoy what I do. I, I just ... I, I love my job and, and ah, I, I love the experiences that it ah, affords me. Um, and as long as ah, I'm energetic and youthful enough that they wanna keep putting me on the air, I'll keep going in there to work. Doug Shafer: That's great. You know I, I've always been curious about your guys work schedule. So I mean, do you get in at ... if you're on at four and six, I'm assuming you probably, you get into work late morning, noon, something like there? About right -
Spencer Christian:
Ah, I get in there, ah generally between 12 and 12:30. Doug Shafer: Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And it takes about three hours to ah, ah, you know, ah review all the ah, weather charts and maps and computer models and read through the weather discussions that are provided by the National Weather Service and other forecasting services, to get a good, you know, mental picture of ... Doug Shafer: What's going on.
Spencer Christian:
... how the weather's moving. And then um, after, after you do that ... Ah, that doesn't take three hours, that takes about an hour. But after we do that we have to build a sequence of graphic images on our computer graphic system that will illustrate how the weather's moving. And although we have all this high tech state of the art equipment ... Doug Shafer: Right.
Spencer Christian:
... It's time consuming. It's a time consuming process because much of the information that you see on these graphics has to be manually input, so ... Doug Shafer: So you're doing that work?
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Oh yeah. Doug Shafer: Okay. All right.
Spencer Christian:
Each person that's one the air is responsible for his or her own show. Doug Shafer: Okay.
Spencer Christian:
So yeah, I'm doing that work. And we, now we used to have weather producers, but that position has been largely eliminated, I think, and stations are cutting costs. So the person whose on the air is the weather producer. (laugh). Doug Shafer: Doing the producing, wow. That's good, that's good to know.
Spencer Christian:
(laugh) Yup. Doug Shafer: And ah, I always love the ones where um, guys or gals doing the late night shows, um, and they're all dressed up. It's like okay, they went out to dinner. They had to go to some fundraiser. It's like, I'm kinda like watching them going, have they been drinking or no. I can't really tell.
Spencer Christian:
They might have been. Doug Shafer: Yeah, but no. They, they've, they're ...
Spencer Christian:
They're professionals. Doug Shafer: They're professionals, that's true.
Spencer Christian:
But you know, so many people are fascinated by, by weather. Doug Shafer: Sure.
Spencer Christian:
Because it affects so many things in our lives. Ah, during my years at Good Morning America, I did a number of things we call weather duets. There would be, you know, famous people who'd come into the studio to be interviewed for their latest book or movie or whatever. Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And, they would see me at this green screen and they would want to do the weather with me. So, I did weather duets with um, well Bill Murray, who did the movie Groundhog Day. Doug Shafer: Oh my gosh, yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Ah, Chevy Chase, ah, ah, Billy Crystal. Tom Hanks. Even Henry Kissinger did the weather with me. (laugh). Doug Shafer: That's really funny. I'm gonna, I gotta look those up.
Spencer Christian:
We've got a cold front over here. (laugh). Doug Shafer: (laugh). Oh. Anything new coming up? Anything in the works?
Spencer Christian:
Nothing new other than trying to get this wine show off the ground. But, I, I do plan to write another book. Doug Shafer: Oh good.
Spencer Christian:
Ah and I'm not quite sure ... I haven't really narrowed it down precisely what the theme is going to be, other than I know I have to write about my own life experience because that's the thing I know best. Doug Shafer: Right.
Spencer Christian:
And the, the thing I have the most expertise in, is you know, reflecting on ah, my own life experience. Um, so it was, so yeah, I'm, I'm trying to figure that out. Doug Shafer: Figure that one out?
Spencer Christian:
And carve out a schedule for writing. Ah, my wife and I travel to, to Italy every September. We're so in love with Italy now. So, we're already planning next September's trip to Italy. Doug Shafer: Great.
Spencer Christian:
And you, you probably know from reading the book that I developed a friendship with Jimmy Carter over the years and ah, had the great honor in 1999, when I first moved here, of being invited to Georgia to emcee his 75th birthday celebration. Well, this year, 2019, I was invited back to emcee his 95th birthday celebration.
Spencer Christian:
So I'm in fairly regular contact with the close associates of the Carter family, checking on his health now. Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Because, you know, he has had a couple falls and spills lately. But, boy I'm telling yeah, he's a, he's a tough dude. (laugh). 95, he's still out there building houses for the poor. Doug Shafer: For the Habitat for Humanity.
Spencer Christian:
Habitat for Humanity, yeah. Great admiration for him. Doug Shafer: Good for you.
Spencer Christian:
Oh and of course, I, I invest a lot of my time in being a grandpa now. Doug Shafer: That's right. Well, that's big. That's a priority.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Doug Shafer: And if people wanna find your book, You Bet Your Life, where do they, where do they look.
Spencer Christian:
Ah, it's available ah, at, at fine bookstores everywhere. (laugh). You can order it on Amazon.com, Barnes and Nobel. I ah, no knock against Barnes and Noble but I think the price is better at Amazon. Doug Shafer: Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Ah, ah and there's still some bookstores that, that have it available, but ah, you know, the first release ah, was, was the time when it was widely, you know ... Doug Shafer: Displayed.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, displayed, yeah. So now you're more likely to find it on, on Amazon.com or any book retailer's website. Doug Shafer: Great. Spencer Christen, thanks for coming in.
Spencer Christian:
Doug Shafer, thanks for having me my friend. Always a pleasure. Doug Shafer: Great seeing you. Thanks.