Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Hey everybody, uh, welcome back, Doug Shafer. Another episode of The Taste. Um, we've got a great, great, great winemaker, friend, mentor, Zelma Long right here today. She has been around a long time. She and I run into each other. I've never spent much time with her so I'm jazzed about today. She is one of the true pioneers in, uh, the quest for top quality wines. She's mentored many, many great winemakers who a few have been on The Taste before. She's forged a path for all of us. Zelma, been really looking forward to having you here. Thank you.
Zelma Long:
Thank you Doug. It's a pleasure.
Doug Shafer:
So tell me, where were you born? What year? Give me, give me the early days.
Zelma Long:
I was born in 1943 in The Dalles, Oregon, which is a town east of the Cascades and, uh, a dry country sitting on the Columbia river.
Doug Shafer:
Sounds beautiful.
Zelma Long:
Great river.
Doug Shafer:
Any vineyards?
Zelma Long:
No vineyards. Cherry orchards.
Doug Shafer:
Cherry orchards.
Zelma Long:
And a lot of, uh, wheat fields.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. And, brother, sisters?
Zelma Long:
Only child.
Doug Shafer:
Only child. What ... And mom and dad, wha-what'd they do?
Zelma Long:
They were teachers.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. And you growing up, sports? Activities? What were you into?
Zelma Long:
I, I fell in love with horses and so, uh, mom and dad bought me a horse. I had a friend who had a ranch. Uh, we kept the horse up there. We rode out across the hills. Many, many times. It was un-unstructured play time.
Doug Shafer:
That's fantastic.
Zelma Long:
It was.
Doug Shafer:
And you took, and you took care of the horse? Your ... Were you responsible?
Zelma Long:
I was responsible but I didn't take care of it on a daily basis because we lived in town. The ranch was about ten miles out. And from that ranch house, you could see mounted ... Mount Adams and Mount St. Helens on the cascades. It was the most-
Doug Shafer:
Oh beautiful.
Zelma Long:
Amazing location.
Doug Shafer:
Tha-that's gorgeous country.
Zelma Long:
It is.
Doug Shafer:
So was wine part of the home, home scene?
Zelma Long:
No. My parents ... And I think this is true for their generation. They drank cocktails. When we got together with relatives at Thanksgiving or Christmas, um, everyone would have a cocktail, they'd be playing poker.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Zelma Long:
So there was no animosity towards alcohol and no one ever got drunk.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Zelma Long:
So I didn't know that that existed until I was in college (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. College kind of does that for everybody, does it?
Zelma Long:
Yes it does (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
No matter where you came from. That's the-
Zelma Long:
Not for me.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Zelma Long:
I don't think I've ever been ... Well, I think I got drunk one time. Not badly drunk but disoriented in Burgundy.
Doug Shafer:
Burgundy.
Zelma Long:
I went to, um, a wedding-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Zelma Long:
Of a young burgundy woman. And the ... And it was at the, um, Clos Vougeot. It was so extraordinary because they had wines and they have, uh, Corton-Charlemagne. They had wines going back 40 years.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Zelma Long:
That they served. Chardonnay, white burgundy, and red burgundy. I probably had a little too much. And it wasn't a problem. I was staying with John [Noel-Francois 00:04:10] in their guest house (laughing). Uh, the only problem was I couldn't get the door to the house open when I got there so I had to sleep on a bench by the swimming pool (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
No, I don't ... I don't think-
Zelma Long:
They-they've never forgotten that.
Doug Shafer:
Uh, yeah. I don't think you were drunk. I just think you just, you know, had trouble with the door. I-I-I-
Zelma Long:
(laughing). Anyone ... I-I grew up with, uh, with ... Sips of alcohol was a normal part of life.
Doug Shafer:
Good, good. I'm trying to think if I've ever slept on a bench.
Zelma Long:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
I've slept in the back of a car a couple times. Anyway, um, so after growing up, so college. Whe-where was college?
Zelma Long:
Oregon State University in Corvallis. I started in home economics with a minor in nutrition. It was the nutrition that was really the focus and I didn't care for home economics. So I switched to general science, even though my advisor said, "Zelma, if you want to be in science, you need to be more focused than general science." But I was able to get the chemistry and microbiology and, uh, molecular biology, which I loved, um, that I needed for my nutrition work. And I also had time to do liberal arts courses 'cause like in ... I think I took-
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Zelma Long:
All introduction courses. Introduction to Philosophy, to Art, to Music, to Geology, to Accounting. So I had a broad education, which I really have appreciated.
Doug Shafer:
All right. That's fantastic. I-I'm a bit jealous because I did the UC Davis Viticulture and Enology and it was pretty much straight science and math, and not a lot of room for electives. And yeah, I've got ... I'm very fortunate I get to travel around the world, selling wine, I’m in beautiful places in cities and museums. And, you know, just a couple of art history classes just, you know ... I kind of wish we would have had that so.
Zelma Long:
Would be wonderful.
Doug Shafer:
So I need to go back. So after, um ... So you're at Oregon State and, um, whe-when did the wine thing happen? Was it, was it college? Was it ... Were you drinking wine in college or ...?
Zelma Long:
No. I wasn't actually. Beer was the alcohol of choice.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Zelma Long:
But I didn't ... I wasn't a party person. But between my sophomore and junior year, I had an opportunity to go to the Bay Area and s-, work in the Department of Nutrition at UC-Berkeley. And at that time, I met my future husband, Bob Long. I went back and finished at Oregon State in 1965 and his parents, um, started to plant vineyards in Napa Valley in 1966.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Zelma Long:
U-uh, we ... Well, while I was working as a dietitian at USE medical center, UCSF. But I thought, "Well. Um, I-if they're going to have a vineyard, maybe I come learn how to make wine. Bob had introduced me to wine. And one time, his parents had a summer house up in the hills above St. Helena in Angwin and he'd made dinner for me there. And the wine he served was Souverain's Green Hungarian.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Zelma Long:
And I ... It's amazing I still remember it. It was the first wine I ever had. I thought it was delicious.
Doug Shafer:
Really?
Zelma Long:
And then-
Doug Shafer:
Green Hungarian. I love it.
Zelma Long:
I-i-I'm still not sure the source of that named grape in terms of its history-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Zelma Long:
But it was ground by Jerry Draper.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Zelma Long:
It was an early vineyardist and he grew grapes for Lee Stewart at Souverain. And I found out many years later that at the time, those grapes that made that wine. Those grapes were 50 or 60 years old. They were old grapes.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Zelma Long:
And that's why that wine was so good.
Doug Shafer:
It's amazing.
Zelma Long:
Yes it was.
Doug Shafer:
That's pretty cool. So Green Hungarian. That was your, that was the first wine that Bob introduced you to and, um, that was the start for you.
Zelma Long:
Yes it was.
Doug Shafer:
And so, so were you guys married at that time or soon to be?
Zelma Long:
No, no, we had just met.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. I see. So he was wooing you with Green Hungarian?
Zelma Long:
He was wooing me with Green Hungarian. Yeah. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) So you went back, that was your internship during college? You went back and graduated?
Zelma Long:
Correct. We married right after I graduated, and I moved down to the Bay Area and, um, started work as a tactician, and worked for there, three years. When Bob and I, he was at a break in his job, and we thought we'd like to go to Europe for several months. So, I basically quit my job. (laughs) And we did. We went to Europe and after we returned, we moved to the Napa Valley.
Doug Shafer:
Because his folks had property on Pritchard Hill, was that correct?
Zelma Long:
Well, the property that we stayed at was at Angwin.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Zelma Long:
The vineyard that he planted in 66, 67 was on Pritchard.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Wow. That's great. Because, you know, no one knew Pritchard Hill that way.
Zelma Long:
That was the old days.
Doug Shafer:
Those were the old days.
Zelma Long:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And so, uh, you guys moved up here and you continued with the wine bug?
Zelma Long:
I did continue with the wine bug. I actually went back to school at UC Davis.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Zelma Long:
Because I already had my science background. I could slip into a graduate program in enology and viticulture, which I did.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. So you're at Davis, get your Master's?
Zelma Long:
Correct.
Doug Shafer:
And, I think you got a phone call?
Zelma Long:
I got a phone call from Mike Grgich who at that time was the enologist at Robert Mondavi Winery. And this was August of 1970. He said, you know, "I need some help for harvest. You've been recommended by one of your professors, um, can you come to work?" And I said, "No, I have to go back to school to finish my degree. And my mother's visiting."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Well, you're very responsible, that's good.
Zelma Long:
(laughs) He called me the next day and said, "This is going to be a great experience for you. You'll learn so many things that you don't learn in school but are related to what you have learned. Why don't you come and work with me?" So, I did.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. So, that was for, that was an internship for just a harvest?
Zelma Long:
He hired me as a harvest intern.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Harvest intern.
Zelma Long:
Yes, and I was sampling tanks and doing some very simple analytical work for him.
Doug Shafer:
Did you like it?
Zelma Long:
I loved it. It was, um, it was early days for him and how he, he opened that winery in 1966. They were still trialing their presses. They had brand new stainless steel tanks, temperature control, they have these roto tanks for fermentors, but at the same time when Mike interviewed me, what he had been doing was tasting through a small group of barrels. The barrel room is what is now the office. And he was tasting each barrel to determine what variety of wines. (Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Zelma Long:
Because someone hadn't labeled them. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Oh, they hadn't labeled the barrels? Oh, my God. (laughs) oh, men.
Zelma Long:
(laughs) And of course, Mike was experienced you know, well, he just he worked 10 years with Andre Tchelistcheff at Beaulieu and worked in different working groups before that and actually, got his degree in enology and in Yugoslavia as a young man.
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Zelma Long:
So, he knew what he was doing but it was still sort of not a systematized for him making situation. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Kind of the Wild West.
Zelma Long:
Yes. It was Wild West.
Doug Shafer:
So, so you did the internship, then did you go back to finish your Master's in, in Davis or did you just start working?
Zelma Long:
I, I realized the first harvest that I did in 1970, we crushed 1800 tons. And I realized that Mike could use an assistant. And I was correct. The second year we crushed 3600 tons, doubled.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Zelma Long:
But, so, I wrote a job description for what I thought he needed. And I attached my CV, which was very robust. Yeah, and they hired me. So, year one I was, uh, an intern, year two, I was part-time, year three I was full time, and year four Mike left.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. So basically, you didn't finish your Master's just stayed on at Mondavi, Mike was gone. You took over, so did you take over as head of enologist?
Zelma Long:
I did after he left. Yes.
Doug Shafer:
And, um, you know, I was, we moved out here in 73, but I remember in the early days, Mondavi was the cool new thing. They were doing good stuff as I got into the industry. It was like Mondavi was a pioneer. I was always curious, who was driving it in the early days as far as technology with stainless tanks and cooling, cool fermentation and barrel fermentation was it Bob Mondavi, or was it Mike?
Zelma Long:
Well, Bob Mondavi certainly had the vision for the tanks and the use of barrels because he traveled in Europe and seen, uh, gained some ideas. So, so, he, he drove that when the winery was built. But in terms of the wine making itself, Mike drove the wine making and the wine making decisions.
Doug Shafer:
That's cool. You got to work with him for two or three years?
Zelma Long:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Zelma Long:
It was a great learning experience.
Doug Shafer:
So, we with him, because they were, I think at the time the chardonnay was the big, you know, he's known for his wonderful chardonnays forever, um, but a lot of the new technology, and new methods of dealing with chardonnay kind of happened right in that era. So, I'm assuming you had a front row seat for it with it?
Zelma Long:
I had a front row seat, and we had some beautiful grapes. They were fermented in stainless and aged in barrels, and some of the fermentations were done in barrels. But there, Mondavi was also incredibly strong in cabernet. Their ‘69 Cabernet, won some major competition that I in, in California that I had forgotten about. So, they were focused really on fine chardonnay and fine cabernet. And, and tasked with finding those grapes, and when I know, when I started in 1970 there, there were 19 wineries. And the vineyards were mostly mixed varietals. So, we often had to, um, harvest Carignan or more of a head drill with chardonnay and cabernet we brought in, because that's what the groups had in the field.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Is what they had.
Zelma Long:
You want our cabernet, you take our Carignan.
Doug Shafer:
So you're there at 73 year, the chief enologist, and, but were you, who had the wine making title at that time?
Zelma Long:
The Mondavis always, always kept the wine.
Doug Shafer:
The Mondavis always kept it, so Tim did. Got it.
Zelma Long:
I, I don't, Tim wasn't there at that time. Tim came I think around 75 or 76.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Understood. And, um, meanwhile though you, you and Bob, do, do, you guys do you guys start your own operation? Long Vineyards.
Zelma Long:
We did. That vineyard that Bob senior planted, which was Reisling on the advice of Jim Liter, that county extension agent and a little bit of chardonnay proved to make beautiful wines, uh, 10 years later Mike Grgich had made some lovely Reislings from the fruit and Mike and Arlene Bernstein had purchased some chardonnay after seeing what Bob and I made. (laughs) And they made a wine that they sold, chardonnay that he sold for $12 a bottle, which was an outrageously huge price at that time.
Doug Shafer:
It is. I mean, that's what BV reserved cab was about $12 that time. Yeah, I think so, maybe 15. Um, so you guys started Long vineyards, grown Chardonnay and Riesling?
Zelma Long:
First vintage was ‘77. It was at Trefethen because we had no winery. And all we really had was about a dozen barrels, so, it was our first barrel fermentation experience. And we were so pleased with that, that we built a small winery along vineyards up on Pritchard Hill and continued, starting in 1978 to make Chardonnay all of the Chardonnay there. And the Riesling.
Doug Shafer:
I love it, so you're growing, you're making Chardonnay and Riesling up on Pritchard Hill, which today's listeners, know Pritchard Hill as great spot for cabernet, and it is, but um...
Zelma Long:
It was a great spot for chardonnay.
Doug Shafer:
You told me that. North facing and you had some wonderful, wonderful plant material you said in that vineyard.
Zelma Long:
It was, well first of all, it came from another vineyards. And we don't know exactly, which, because Rudy the crafter knew all the vineyards, and he acquired the chardonnay material.
Doug Shafer:
And you don't know where he got it, right?
Zelma Long:
No, he cut some from McCray.
Doug Shafer:
Which is Stony Hill.
Zelma Long:
Stony Hill. I think, he cut some from Martini. But it was, um, it was a clone and had small grapes, small crops and it was diverse. I, I realized that when my husband Phil, and I went through one of the vineyards, and we, Bob had wanted to plant a new vineyard, I wanted to make sure that it duplicated the Southern vineyard, which made such great wine. So, Phil and I went through 12 two rows of that other vineyard and we tasted every vine and we decided there were about five different flavors, apples, citrus, pies. And so, we labeled the grapes and we counted the different flavors, and translated that into percentage. So, Bob knew what vines were what flavors, and what percentage should be planted in the new vineyard, which he did.
Doug Shafer:
That's painstaking job. That's amazing you guys did that.
Zelma Long:
It was, it was amazing. And I did it because I had made Long Vineyards clone existed, um, had been taken from long vineyards into several other vineyards. One of them was Larry Hyde’s vineyard and he selected the plant material. And then ultimately, when I was in Simi, I purchased those grapes and made wine from them. And I knew that the wine from the grapes that he selected was different from the Long Vineyard Chardonnay. And once we went through that-
Doug Shafer:
Interesting. Yeah.
Zelma Long:
- block and saw the diversity, I understood why. Because it, in his, uh, selections, he was probably selecting for healthy plant material or good looking vines. And I don't think any of us were cognizant enough of the variety of flavors that we could have said to Larry, "You have to do it differently." I mean, his wine, his grapes are wonderful, but they're not as complex as Long Lineyards was.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, he had a special thing going.
Zelma Long:
He had a special thing going.
Doug Shafer:
Now the wines are beautiful, because I remember, I'd, I'd come across some of those bottles, older bottles because dad, my dad had been a cellar because you know, he, he knew you guys and, uh, they were delicious, really complex. Um, but also something that I want to talk about that I just found out about in doing some research on you was, something called the American Vineyard Foundation, which was formed in ‘78. And you had a big part in that founding.
Zelma Long:
Yes. It was quite, it was... I was on the board of the American Society of Enology and Viticulcture. And we were looking for ways to finance research. I don't know how the idea emerged. I don't remember but I took hold of it, and formed the foundation, got its 501C3 status, um, conceived the process for the fundraising, and the ACV picked it up and ran with it. Our, our industry at that time wasn't, um, generous with money for research. People were too busy trying to make their businesses run, and figuring out how to make good wine and sell it. But I understand that it's still going strong.
Doug Shafer:
It's doing great. Uh, we cut a nice big check to them every year basically, most of us are part of this. It's called the American Vineyard Foundation. And basically, we pay a certain amount of money per tonne, grown or per acre grown or per tonne crushed as a winery, whether you're a grower winery, but it's, uh, a lot of money that goes straight to the foundation and they distribute grants for research, and we need research all the time. There's always a new pest, there's always new this, there's, you know, different ways to skin the cat out there in the vineyard. So, we need that research and it's been great. So thank you very much for doing that. Appreciate it.
Zelma Long:
Well, it is true. It's amazing to me. I, I have such respect for farmers, because over the years, I've seen all these new little creatures, insects or virus or bacteria emerge to challenge the vineyards.
Doug Shafer:
Very much so.
Zelma Long:
It's, it's, it's complicated.
Doug Shafer:
It's ongoing. You, just soon as you, um, get ahead of one issue, there's another one.
Zelma Long:
Yes. I know.
Doug Shafer:
We all know that. So, 1979, I just finished my fifth year at Davis got a degree in wine making, grape growing, and stayed the next year to get teaching credential. So, I was on my way to teach junior high school in Tucson, Arizona. So, I had a free summer. So, I got a summer job. I was a tour guide at Robert Mondavi winery, the summer of 1979.
Zelma Long:
Wow. We crossed paths.
Doug Shafer:
We crossed paths because well, even if you'd been there, I don't think I would have seen you because you're in the back of the house and I was at the front. But so what happened in 79?
Zelma Long:
As I have mentioned, I hit the glass ceiling at Mondavi, because it's a family run company. And I had really worked in those parts of the business, the wine making business, except for the vineyard work. And I was approached by a recruiter from Simi Winery, who wanted to hire me as a winemaker for Simi. And I decided to make that move, which happened in ‘79. I did my first vintage at Simi in 79. But I wanted to do more. And it offered me the opportunity to source the grapes for the winery to make the harvest decisions, to work with the growers, and also on top of that, they wanted to build a new fermentation cellar. And I would have the responsibility for the design and oversight of the, of the building of the fermentation cellar.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's fun. That's fun.
Zelma Long:
It was, it was. What it required was to think about the wine making process for each of the wines that Simi made, and think about what equipment and tanks and barrels we needed and how to locate them through the cellar. I worked with an engineer.
Doug Shafer:
Production, you know, I love production challenges, that's always been my favorite thing, it's like okay, how can we skin this cat? There's got to be a way, we got to get this wine to that wine to this tank, dah, dah, dah. I mean, um, the guy who trained me, Randy Mason was a master at and that was, I think I just got the bUg, and over the years with Elias I think we have something that's, that's it saying you know, and we would go home, it's hilarious, we'd go home, is like, "Oh we can't solve, we haven't solved it." And we'll both show up the next day, and he'll have a solution and I'll have a different solution, which is really kind of fun. So, it's which one works best.
Zelma Long:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So, while you were at Simi, you worked with a lot of people. Your name's come up. Paul Hobbs has been in here, Dave Ramey. What's your, what's your secret? Do you just go find these, these people and mentor them or they just come to you? I mean, you find, you find some great talent.
Zelma Long:
I have, I always have. Mondavi, Genevieve worked for me.
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Zelma Long:
Paul Hobbs, that's how I knew Paul worked for me. Several other wine makers, but, I was raised, if you put it that way at a winery, Robert Mondavi, where the, the owner, Bob Mondavi, was focused on making great wine, and he was convinced that Napa Valley had the grapes to do it. So, our focus was always, how do we make the wine better? And when I encountered the vineyards, I was thinking the same thing. Now, when you're buying grapes, you don't necessarily have the ability to control the vineyard, but you can make suggestions. However, when I started at Simi I didn't know enough about vineyard to even, even make suggestions. I did know enough to be able to look at the vineyard and taste the grapes, and figure out that they might suit us and sometimes they would, and sometimes they wouldn't. But I was more aware of how little I knew.
Doug Shafer:
And knowing you, that was, that would be something you were going to fix one way or the other.(laughs)
Zelma Long:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So, speaking of that, because, um, you know, time goes on. I think you and Bob parted company, divorced at some point and then you remarried Phil. Phil Freeze, correct?
Zelma Long:
Yes. Bob and I divorced but we did keep running the Long Vineyards.
Doug Shafer:
That's right. You did.
Zelma Long:
Uh, until the vineyards closed.
Doug Shafer:
And when did that, when did it close?
Zelma Long:
That was in the mid-2000s. When his father sold the land.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. And then meanwhile you met Phil Freese. How did that happen?
Zelma Long:
I met Phil, he'd gotten his PhD in biochemistry and biophysics at UC Davis, and decided he didn't want to teach, and he had started working for a vineyard that was supplying a lot of grapes to Robert Mondavi. So, I first met him as a grape supplier.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Zelma Long:
And um, and we became friends that we were both married at that time. And then when I moved to Simi, he was also supplying grapes to Simi. And, but what, what happened to me so important was my drive to figure out what was going in the vineyards led me to start a group called the Napa Valley vineyards research group, and that group was about eight wineries and included Beaulieu, Mondavi, Phelps, Jordan, and Simi. This was around 1980 vineyards were being planted, people were looking for a way to improve the quality of their wines. And we had a lot of unanswered questions. So, each person was tasked with contributing $4,000 a year to UC Davis to fund research in the connection between the vineyard and the winery. What can you do in the vineyard to enhance the quality of the wines? And we looked at rootstock and clones, we looked at, um, training Systems, trellis systems. We looked at road direction, vine spacing, um, and we developed a lot of knowledge through doing that, that project ran I'm guessing, for 10 years. And we shared all that information. At the same time Richard Smart came through about 1980 and spoke at the ACV conference.
Doug Shafer:
I remember Richard Smart. Australian viticulturist, brilliant and always just great new ideas.
Zelma Long:
Well, he said, at that time he said, "All your vineyards in Napa Valley are trellised wrong."
Doug Shafer:
That's right. (laughs)
Zelma Long:
I'll never how forget that. And of course now they're all different. (Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, he did not, he did not hold back. He told it like it was. Or at least according to him. And he, he consults all over the world too.
Zelma Long:
Well, he has stimulated some change.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughs)
Zelma Long:
And uh, when I moved to Simi, Phil left his job, uh, working for the vineyards that were supplying grapes to Mondavi and started, uh, running the viticulture program at Robert Mondavi and became their vice president of wine growing.
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Zelma Long:
And through the research that our group did and his own research at Mondavi, he was able to go into their growers vineyards and actually make suggest, specific suggestions about how to change their practices to enhance the wine.
Doug Shafer:
I remember that because I remember Mondavi had a program, I didn't know it was Phil, but they had a program where they were out in the vineyards talking to growers a lot, because I'd, once in a while I would try to steal a grower from Mondavi but didn't work out very well. (laughs) But, but I'm here.
Zelma Long:
Sure it didn't. (laughs) It was cagey. He, he, he had to buy all the grapes too.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. So, he's doing all the contracts?
Zelma Long:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's great. But no, and by the time I, I, I met Phil a couple times, but I'd hear him speak at seminars and gatherings and things like that, but he was one of the guys he's, you know, as far as you know what to do in the vineyard. He was the guy so.
Zelma Long:
He was the guy. He still is.
Doug Shafer:
Still is. So, you're still at Simi, you're there and you are VP of, winemaker VP starting out, then you moved up the ranks. Did you become president at some point?
Zelma Long:
I did. I, I, I said that when I interviewed for the job I told them, "I didn't just want to be your winemaker, I wanted to be vice president-winemaker," this was not a big piece. (laughs) But I put it out there, and I also said that eventually if that possibility came along, I might like to consider being president, which of course I wasn’t really interested in at that time, but it seemed like a good thing, just to say.
Doug Shafer:
I think that was a good move. And it worked out.
Zelma Long:
It did work out.
Doug Shafer:
You became president.
Zelma Long:
Yeah, I did. I worked as winemaker for 10 years. You, um, asked earlier how I came to acquire such good assistance. And I think it was, um, several things. I was looking for people who had good strong education, who had worked for good wineries, um, ideally, had, had worked overseas. So, people that had, a, a drive to excel.
Doug Shafer:
I got to interrupt you, why overseas? I'm curious.
Zelma Long:
This wasn't quite so true at that time but since I was at Simi and, and hiring people, that was the ‘80s, in the ‘70s, you could sell any wine you made, in the 80s, in the 80s, we begin to learn about wine growing, but I felt that I, someone who worked with me needed to have a broad vision of the world. First of all, they needed to know that there were different ways of doing things, that just because we did something one way, that doesn't mean it was the right way, or the only way, because I always learned a lot. I traveled overseas, visiting wineries and vineyards frequently. Starting in 1973, I traveled to Germany, '76 I traveled to Bordeaux and Burgundy with, Andre Tchelistcheff and a group of, uh, wineries from Napa Valley and I've really valued those experience. You get, you get ideas, you hear perspectives. Of course nowadays, we know that what works for the winery down the road may not work for you because you have your vineyards, and your style and your issues. And so what, what's good for you in terms of procedures and facilities and people may not be good for someone else.
Doug Shafer:
Spot on. I, I am reminded about this all the time. I treasure our place and our grapes, and our location, and what the wines they make. And, um, that's what we do. And we do it really well, I was walking through the cellar this morning, we've got some hillside tanks fermenting. Elias goes, "Hey," I go while he goes hey, turn he hands me a beaker he goes, "Try this." Because you know, my days of daily winemaker are long gone, and I smell this beaker, it's, it's cabernet. It's probably about 5% sugars just wrapping up, and it's just Zelma. It was like, I smelled it and I tasted it, I looked at him I said, "Oh man," he goes "Yeah," I go, I just had memories like, I can't tell you come flooding back.
Doug Shafer:
Of all those years making line and checking those you know, the sugars once or twice a day during fermentation and pump it over more when depress it, when they go to barrel, and but, but the aroma of cabernet off these hills right outside this door here, when it's just about done fermenting. I mean, it's embedded in my being, and it's like, he's, I just, it was totally just, he goes "Hey, try this." I go, "Whoa, man that's sunspot," he goes. "Yeah, that sunspot go every year." It goes yeah, every year. You know, you know it's like, so, I'm sorry. I just went off on a tangent, but it's just, um, it's what we do.
Zelma Long:
It is, and I think that's what's attractive, fascinating, extraordinary about our business is, in essence, we're tuned into the fact that each piece of plant produces different characters and flavors. And it's our job to support that land and doing it and to, um, preserve and enhance those flavors in the winery. But it's different every year, and it's different with each plot of land, so you never get bored with your job, and then it's two different jobs. You know, at harvest, you're just working all the time. Uh, everything has to be done immediately. Grapes can't wait to be harvested. They have to be harvested when they're ready, you can't really plan, you just respond to the situation. To me, that's a very, very different way of working, it's respond and act. The rest of the year when you're bottling wine, you can plan, but not at harvest, it's very exciting. It's like two different jobs.
Doug Shafer:
It is. The list is predictable. (laughs) So, you know, where it's going. Um, uh, I talked to a friend of mine who's a lawyer, attorney, does trial work. He says, you know, you just never know when it's coming. You know, I mean, it's like you get the least Shafer, you get, you know, you know, when, you know when the good times are coming.
Zelma Long:
(laughs) when harvest is coming.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, exactly. It's a pretty good point. So Simi, you were at Simi for 20 years, 79 to 99.
Zelma Long:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Tell me, tell me what happened? You moved on.
Zelma Long:
Well, at the end of ‘99, is that what you're asking?
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Zelma Long:
Well, Phil and I, I have to go back actually to 1990 when I was invited to South Africa, by the Cape estate wine producers. And they had come through to visit the winery just as casual winemakers come through. Um, sometime in the previous year, and I take them on a tour and done a tasting and hosted a lunch like you do for people in your business. And apparently, they had liked what they saw, but they also had, and I found this so much later, they had visited other wineries who were not very hospitable. And that was during apartheid. And I think that's why. But I never thought about that, you know, these are wine people.
Doug Shafer:
They are wine people.
Zelma Long:
Anyway, they sent me a letter and said, "We'd like you to come out for and talk about the use of barrels in winemaking." They were pretty much out of touch with, uh, what was going on in the rest of the world about wine. Phil and I were engaged at that time, and we talked. And we said, "Yeah, let's go together, we'll take a vacation after," and so, I told them that he was coming, and they're like, "Oh, great. We'll bring you both, and we'll do a full-day seminar in wine making and wine growing." So we did that, the two of us. We did a full day presentation. It was fun. And then we went to three different areas in the wine country, where we would meet informally with winemakers. They would bring their wines, we taste them together, talk about them.
Zelma Long:
And um, I've, we've, we've found some wines, most particularly Sauvignon Blanc that was just fabulous and good red wines, but we thought these wines could be better, and we felt that the environment there, the um, soils, ancient soils, that the fact that Cape is surrounded by ocean, so it was the maritime climate with old soil. So, we thought and also lots of mountains. So, there wasn't any big span of vineyards like where you could plant 300 acres. The, the vineyards that were there were 10 acres, 20 acres. And they were all different because they had different aspects and different soils, different elevations. And there was, it seemed like there were a lot of possibilities. So, I would just like, you hear me, I'm just like oh, this is-
Doug Shafer:
This is cool. Yeah.
Zelma Long:
Something could be done here. And um, so we let, but with enthusiasm behind us. We of course, we're not enthusiastic about apartheid. But we were there at a very critical time. We were there, January of 1990 and February of 1990 Nelson Mandela was released from prison. And that was the beginning of the change. And if anyone wants to read a book about a great man, he wrote A Long Walk to Freedom, which is just, he was an extraordinary person. Um, and so, we were able, in our ensuing time in South Africa to see those social changes, thank goodness. But nonetheless, I was, I was excited to help the wines and the more about the potential than the wines themselves.
Zelma Long:
And then I so, I think because of my enthusiasm, I was invited back two different years to be a judge for South African Airways. So, the wineries would put their wines in for sale and, and in doing that I was able to taste a lot of different wines, and meet a lot of different people. Phil and I went, in the mid ‘90s, to an international conference. And I said to him, "You know, I think we are going to run out people to pay us. Why don't you get some consulting clients?" So he did, and that was 1996. And so, he has consulted for many of the top wineries in South Africa.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's great.
Zelma Long:
And one of them approached us, and he said, and asked if we would be interested in, in a joint venture. So, this was ‘97, I was going to retire in a couple years. So, it seemed like a good time to start something new.
Doug Shafer:
I see, I see. And so, that was the Vilafonte project?
Zelma Long:
That was the Vilafonte project. We bought, um, 100 acres of raw land, um, Vilafonte was one of the soil types. And our partner at that time Backsberg, Phil laid out the vineyard, uh, we agreed on what varieties to plant, we agreed to Bordeaux varietals were the ones that were going to work well in this site we had and sell well in future, and they were also varieties that we were very comfortable in working with. People have asked us why we didn't do pinotage. Pinotage this a very specific, um, South African grape, which is tricky to manage, and we wanted to work with something we felt we could do very well. So, Phil got the vineyards and all the technical details, um, Michael Back planted, and that was the start of our program. Our first harvest was 2003.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. So, you were, did you live over there for a while? Or you went just back and forth?
Zelma Long:
We went just back and forth.
Doug Shafer:
Because for some reason I thought you guys were both living over there. (laughs)
Zelma Long:
Well, we have always gone for, our harvest is in February. So, we've always gone over, Phil goes over in early January, and leaves at the end of Feb. I go over in late January and leave in middle to the end of March. So, between the two of us we cover a, a lot of territory, and spend a lot of time, and then for many years, we've returned in their winter, our summer for a couple weeks. And then we returned, as we are getting ready to do, in November to blend the vintage, so this November I'll be blending the 2019 vintage that we made in February.
Doug Shafer:
How fun. You're still making wine. Look at you. So, you've got that going. And um, that's been going for, gosh, over 10 years, I think.
Zelma Long:
That has been going for 22 years.
Doug Shafer:
22 years? Oh, I'm, I'm a decade off. Wow, that's fantastic. And meanwhile, you've consulted with lots of different wineries around the world, actually, over the years.
Zelma Long:
I want to do this back up and tell you something about Vilafonte. We did that project because we could build our own vineyard and wines from scraps together and we could invest our expertise in an area that we thought could make great wines, and we wanted to make great wines, and we wanted to make wines of international significance. This year, a wine judge in South Africa, entered our 2016 series C, which is a Cabernet based blend into the six nations wine challenge. It's a wine challenge where each nation has a judge who decides what top wines should be entered in this competition. So, there is South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, uh, Canada, Chile and the United States. And we won the trophy in the Bordeaux category in that competition.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. Congratulations.
Zelma Long:
So we have done-
Doug Shafer:
You've done it.
Zelma Long:
What we wanted to do. We've had lots of, um, recognition in South Africa and Europe, but that's really in a sense, the first global, um, recognition that we've gotten. So, I just wanted to mention that.
Doug Shafer:
I think, no, I'm glad you mentioned it, good for you. You worked hard. Well, that's how dreams come true. A lot of work.
Zelma Long:
Persistence. Focus.
Doug Shafer:
So, are you still consulting with many, many people?
Zelma Long:
No. Um, I have two clients currently. I stopped focusing on consulting in 2009 when I decided to go back to school, and get my PhD, and I didn't really have the time. So, I've carried a few clients along.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. But you mentioned this when, when we're walking in the door today. You're, you're you're writing your dissertation right now?
Zelma Long:
I'm finishing.
Doug Shafer:
Finishing the dissertation. A PhD, and so, one would think, gee has to do with wine, right? It's got to be-
Zelma Long:
People too, think that.
Doug Shafer:
So what are you doing now? You went back to school.
Zelma Long:
I am majoring in performance with a minor in Native American Studies. And my dissertation is called “The Performance and Transmission of Art in a Six Generation Native American Family of Artists.” I was, I, I, I wanted to do, to do art. Art has always been a side passion for me. When we went to Tibet, we love Tibetan art. In South Africa, we know South African artists. And so of course, I'm always an optimist and went over to Davis and I'm thinking that I could major in art, no, get a PhD. I didn't want to just, you know, study it, I want a PhD. No previous training, or education in art, none, zero. And I met this wonderful professor who said to me, "Why don't you major in performance and then that way you could look at the performance of artists, how they do, what they do, what they've done." And in fact, my interest is in the artist. How did they, how did they do? Where do the ideas come from? You know, how do they see? Where's that creative energy?
Doug Shafer:
Right, right, right.
Zelma Long:
And same time, I've always been interested in Native Americans. Starting, when my parents gave me a turquoise bracelet from the southwest.
Doug Shafer:
That'll do it.
Zelma Long:
Right. So, that's, that was time consuming.
Doug Shafer:
Just a whole new, just, just expand your horizons.
Zelma Long:
Well, I told you that I thought when, I spent my whole, uh, life in science and agriculture and thought, well, you know, I shouldn't run to help my knowledge with the focusing on liberal arts. So, that was the interest in art and not thinking about wanting to have a complete education, and experience.
Doug Shafer:
And, but you do know though, that you just told me you had no, no experience in art, no education in art, but you've been an artist for a long, long time with your beautiful wines. (laughs)
Zelma Long:
That's true. And she, she actually said to me, "You know, you could do your PhD, studying the performance of winemakers." I certainly could have, but I wanted to do something new.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, me too. Yeah, I've done too many winemakers. (laughs) Oh Zelma, this is great. Hey, if people out there want to find some of your wines, your Vilafonte wines, is there a way to do that easily? How would they do it?
Zelma Long:
Easily, there's a website called Cape Ardor. Cape Ardor. Cape, C-A-P-E, Ardor, A-R-D-O-R.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Perfect.
Zelma Long:
Dot com, and that carries a large selection of South African wines always including ours. (laughs) And you know, as you know, it's wonderful to have a place you could point to where people can get your wine.
Doug Shafer:
That's what people write me about they say, "Hey, you just talked to so and so we forgot to tell us where to get their wine," so that's why we do it.
Zelma Long:
Capeardor.com. Vilafonte. And we make two wines, a Series C, which is a cabernet based wine. That also has, um, Merlot and Cab Franc with a little bit of Malbec and Series M, which is about two thirds Merlot and Malbec with the foundation of Cabernet.
Doug Shafer:
Perfect. Sounds good.
Zelma Long:
Oh, one more.
Doug Shafer:
One more?
Zelma Long:
Seriously Old Dirt, is our wine that we make from young vineyards, and from pressed wine and it's delicious. Our wines are delicious.
Doug Shafer:
Delicious is what it's all about. That's the goal. It's actually called Seriously Old Dirt, is the name of the wine?
Zelma Long:
Correct. And the reason-
Doug Shafer:
I like that name.
Zelma Long:
Is because when Phil first saw this property, he said this is seriously old dirt.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Zelma Long:
And our partner Mike is the marketing and sales and manager (laughs) thought that was a good name for a label and he's right.
Doug Shafer:
That's great. I love it. Uh, say hi to Phil for me.
Zelma Long:
I will do.
Doug Shafer:
And thank you so much for coming in. It was great.
Zelma Long:
It's been a pleasure.
Doug Shafer:
Thanks.