Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Doug Shafer:
Hey, everybody, welcome back to another episode of The Taste. This is Doug Shafer, and, uh, we got a special guest today, Thomas Matthews, executive editor of the Wine Spectator. Uh, I first met Tom, I don't know which Wine Experience, but one of them through the years, and it was always great to see Tom during the Wine Experience because, if you haven't been to one of these things, it's a crazy three, or four days. There's a million things going on. There's all this crazy, busy activity. And then I'd, then I'd run into Tom, somewhere. And he was always cool, calm, and we'd, we'd have a moment. We'd have a really wonderful, intelligent, yet short exchange, but it was always very, almost zen-like, Tom. And I got to tell you, I've, I've loved seeing you at those times, and I always thought, "God, I'd really like to sit down and have lunch with this guy and talk to him more," so we finally have a chance today. So thanks for coming on.
Tom Matthews:
Well, thank you for, uh, having me, Doug. And I well remember your a- appearances at the Wine Experience, both pouring at the booth. The Shafer booth was always mobbed with well-wishers and aficionados. And then, when you and your dad poured that amazing vertical tasting for our thousand guests, and just really showed the world what Napa Valley cabernet can do, and what great people you were. So, to me, the Wine Experience was about the wine, sure, of course, but really, it was about the people, and the presenters, and the guests, and being part of that world was always a high point of my year.
Doug Shafer:
Super. No, it was a lot of fun. Um, but before we get in m- into that, and to your story, um, you're executive editor of the Wine Spectator. You've been doing it since 1999. You've been with the Spectator since '88. I've, I've, I'm betting a lot of people, like me, don't know exactly what that involves, being the executive editor. What's it, what's it like? What's your ... What do you do?
Tom Matthews:
Well, I spend most days going out for lunch at fancy restaurants with great vintners, drinking old bottles, and having a blast.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Oh, come on. There's got to be more than that.
Tom Matthews:
Well, there's a little, there's a little more than that. I would say my job is to be the defender and, uh, nurturer of brand Wine Spectator.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Matthews:
My job is to make sure that what goes in the magazine and what goes up on the website and what happens at our events is what our readers are looking for, so that they will keep loyal to us, and, um, we can keep growing our audience and teaching people about the great world of wine. So, there's the three, or four parts to that. I mean, I'm a ... We're built on tastings, and I'm a taster, and tasting the wines of Spain for the last 30 years. We're also a magazine of stories, so I'm a writer and editor, and really read and edit almost everything that goes either on the website or in the magazine. And then there's the managing part. We have 40 people on our staff between New York City and Napa. And, uh, that's a lot of moving parts, so I have to keep everybody happy and working hard.
Doug Shafer:
Uh, yeah.
Tom Matthews:
And then the most challenging part, I would say, is Marvin. Marvin Shanken, who owns Wine Spectator and M. Shanken Communications, our parent company, is a visionary and, uh, extremely demanding, extremely, uh, adventurous, and, uh, not that patient. So I'm sort of the hinge between Marvin and the publication, the hinge between the idea and the reality. I have to, I have to take his ideas and turn them into the Wine Spectator. And that has been a great adventure over the last 30 years.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. I can imagine 'cause I, I don't know Marvin well, but I know him well enough, and he is a ball of fire. I mean, the guy is moving 100 miles an hour, all the time, and you can see the w- the wheels are just turning. So, man, you've got your hands full. And ...
Tom Matthews:
Well, you mentioned that zen personality, and I (laughing) think Marvin would be the first to agree that that has been a good match. You know, he brings the fire, and I bring the cool rain, from time to time.
Doug Shafer:
Well, cool rain, but also one of your earlier comments, when you started answering this question. I, I flashed on brand and 'cause you said, you know, "I, I touch everything about this, this organization and this publication and this website," and you keep an eye on it. And, basically, you protect that brand, which is the Wine Spectator. And that's, um, that's so important that someone's got that ball and is carrying it all the time.
Tom Matthews:
That is the biggest challenge and m- my, the greatest satisfaction. I feel that, um, through all the ups and downs, we have maintained our integrity, and, uh, have increased our expertise. And as a result of that, we have built our audience. People trust us, and I take that with a great deal of pride and respect and gratitude.
Doug Shafer:
Well, hats off to you, man, because you've guys have stayed current and stayed on top for, you know, over 30 years, which we're gonna talk about a little later today. But before we do that, let's talk about you. Tell me, tell me where you were born. Take me all the way back. Parents, siblings, childhood, give me the, uh, Reader's Digest version.
Tom Matthews:
Okay. Well, I was born in 1953 in Flint, Michigan. My father was from Virginia, a chemist, who was working for DuPont Chemical Company. My mother grew up in Wilmington. She was a, uh, church music specialist.
Tom Matthews:
And, like so many families in the '60s, ours floundered and broke up, and so I spent third grade in Belgium with my mother and father.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Matthews:
Fourth grade in Michigan with my father, fifth grade in Delaware with my mother, and sixth grade in Vermont with my mother and new stepfather.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man. Three, or four-
Tom Matthews:
It ...
Doug Shafer:
... years in a row, just like that. That ...
Tom Matthews:
It, uh, you know, it gave me a tolerance for insecurity and a taste for adventure, and I think it sort of set me up to be something of a risk-taker, which I think has served me well-
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Tom Matthews:
... in the later career path. So, so I went to Bennington College in Vermont, a small liberal arts college, student-centered. Studied a lot of different things. Wound up as a social science major because I was kind of thinking about law school and, uh, wound up in graduate school in political science at Yale.
Tom Matthews:
And really discovered in a hurry that academia was not my path in life. (laughing) Well, how's that work when you're at Yale, getting through that? I mean if -
Tom Matthews:
Well, I don't put any of the blame on Yale.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Matthews:
They did what they do, and they did it very well. But it just was not right for me, so I dropped out and saved some money, working for a year and said, "You know what? I don't like working, either."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
So what? (laughing)
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Tom Matthews:
S-
Doug Shafer:
I love it.
Tom Matthews:
So I'd said, "Okay, I don't like school, and I don't want, like, working. What's left?"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Yeah.
Tom Matthews:
I said, "How about travel?"
Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay.
Tom Matthews:
I'll travel. So I said, so I saved some money, and I moved to Spain to write a, a novel, in 1978. I had Ernest Hemingway in my sights, and that was my path.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Matthews:
So a- after about a year, I lived in Grenada, I decided that I was going to find an apartment that had a view of the Alhambra, the great Moorish, Spanish palace from the Renaissance. And I did. And every night, I had a glass of sherry and watched the sunset on the Alhambra, and every day, I got up and worked on my novel. And after a year, I had drunk a lot of sherry.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
I finished (laughs) I finished the novel ...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
... and I ran out of money.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, I love it.
Tom Matthews:
And I s-, and I said, "Now what?" I said, "I, the novel's not very good. I, I, I don't know what's gonna happen with that, but I have to g- earn some money," so a friend said, "Let's go to Bordeaux and pick grapes." This was September 1979. And I said, "Well, why would we do that?" He said, "Well, for three reasons." He said, "The, uh, the food is great, they give you all the wine you want to drink, and the work is easy." So I said, "Well, okay. Sign me up." Well, Doug, guess which one was a lie?
Doug Shafer:
I know because I've tried to pick (laughing) grapes myself, and it's (laughing) no fun. (laughs) It's a lot of work. (laughing) Yeah. That's-
Tom Matthews:
I still have scars on my fingers.
Doug Shafer:
Oh. Oh, you ... It's horrible. You cut your fingers, and then the grape, the, the juice gets in.
Tom Matthews:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It stings like all get out. Oh, man. Yeah.
Tom Matthews:
Yeah. But I'm sure, like you, I just, I was, I landed up in a small family property in Entre-Deux-Mers outside Bordeaux.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Matthews:
And I just fell in love with the wine world.
Doug Shafer:
Huh. So that's when it happened?
Tom Matthews:
[crosstalk 00:10:45].
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, cause I was gonna ask if ...
Tom Matthews:
I said ...
Doug Shafer:
I was gonna ask you, earlier. I'm interrupting. I apologize. But was there, when growing up, was there wine in the, in the house? Is, was that, uh, happening?
Tom Matthews:
Uh, you know, yes, and no.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Matthews:
I mean, we had sherry time with Gallo Cream Sherry. Uh, we occasionally had some sparkling wine. That label, I can't remember. But the wine memory that I ... earliest wine memory that I have, was from Belgium. After church, we would go, a group of families, to a restaurant, uh, for ... to get together. And this restaurant had a rotisserie where they cooked chickens and, uh, served French fries with that, and then there were these carafes of red wine on the table. And it was just a wonderful moment. Every d- w- week, I would look forward to this. The kids would run around, scrap over the French fries, the adults would sit at the tables and drink the wine and laugh and talk, and that really stuck with me as something, a life that I liked. I've, recently, learned that that restaurant still exists. In fact, it was ... It has its roots in the 17th century. It's called De Oeuf.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, wow.
Tom Matthews:
And The Hoof. And, uh, I wrote about this in a column. I wrote in the October 31 issue, and a reader from Belgium wrote me and said, "That restaurant is great. I go there every week. (laughing) When you come to Belgium, we're gonna go together."
Doug Shafer:
That's so cool.
Tom Matthews:
Can you believe it?
Doug Shafer:
That's great. And that's when, that's when it clicked for you, that even though ...
Tom Matthews:
Well ...
Doug Shafer:
Even though `you didn't know it was clicking, that was the, that-
Tom Matthews:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... great memory.
Tom Matthews:
Well, we had the same thing in, in, during the grape harvest. You know? Every day, after the picking was done, we'd all sit around the table, and the, the wife, the vintner's wife would bring out platters of roast chicken and French fries, and there'd be carafes of red wine on the table, and everybody would laugh and talk.
Doug Shafer:
Ah. That's so romantic, except for the picking grapes part. (laughs)
Tom Matthews:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Tom Matthews:
So I decided, "Okay. I want to get into wine, but I'm not gonna be a grape picker."
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Matthews:
"I'm not (laughs) gonna-
Doug Shafer:
So, so did ...
Tom Matthews:
I'm not gonna do the (laughing) physical work.
Doug Shafer:
So how'd you do there?
Tom Matthews:
Maybe I can write about it.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Matthews:
That maybe I can write about it. But then, you know, I had to learn how to, I had to learn about wine, and I had to learn how to write about wine, so I spent four years in New York, as a bartender and wine buyer at a couple of restaurants there. And this was '82 to '86.
Doug Shafer:
'82 to '86.
Tom Matthews:
Which was an interesting time to-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Matthews:
... be in the wine ind- industry, just kind of taking off, really.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Matthews:
Uh, big consumers, kind of middle-class consumers getting into wine in a serious way. The Bordeaux futures of '82, you know, the California, the, the Judgment of Paris, with that, so, and the restaurants were kind of trendy, uh ...
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Matthews:
So, uh, a very wide salesman d- was dying to be on the list, so I got to taste a lot.
Doug Shafer:
So when you were a bartender, you became a wine buyer? And how'd that work out?
Tom Matthews:
The guy who was buying the wines quit the job, and I said, "I'll do that." And they said, "Well, how, why, h- uh, you can't do that." I said, "Sure I can. I've picked grapes. I know about wine."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
And I said, "I'll do it for no more money." They said, "All right. It's yours."
Doug Shafer:
So that's how you became a wine buyer. That's -.
Tom Matthews:
I am.
Doug Shafer:
So, I gotta ask you a question. So were you buying ... Since you love Spain, um, and you t- write about Spanish wines today and have for a long time, I'm assuming you were at s- into Spanish wines, then. Yes, no?
Tom Matthews:
Mmm, not so much, Doug. I mean, really, in the '80s, Spanish wine was not happening.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Okay.
Tom Matthews:
But, and this was a French bistro, and, uh, so we mostly had a French wine list, but California was happening. And, uh, I remember, uh, Kistler ... I mean, not Kistler, but Sonoma Cutrer ...
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Matthews:
... hit the market, and I could not keep that in stock. I just kept pouring and pouring the chardonnay. It was like the house wine, you know, and-
Doug Shafer:
I know.
Tom Matthews:
And so I thought, "Wow. Something's going on here." I had Burgess. I had, uh, Insignia at the high end. I was one of the first buyers of Opus One. I bought the mixed pack of '79 and '80.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, wow. I remember that. (laughs) Okay.
Tom Matthews:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Tom Matthews:
So, you know, and I sold a lot of Beaujolais nouveau and, uh, a lot of, you know, Saint-Émilon with the steak-frites.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Well, I remember, um, 'cause in the mid '80s, I was here in the cellar, and Dad was doing all the sales and marketing and whatnot, but I remember, um, New York, for us, was really tough because-
Tom Matthews:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... even though California was happening, it was still very, very Eurocentric, um, with wines.
Tom Matthews:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, and rightfully so. And, so California was just busting in, and we were a total no-name. And I remember, I think it took him three years to get distributed, take, to take us on New York. It took, you know, I the-
Tom Matthews:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... late, in the mid-'80s, and then it finally did. And, um, and it's, uh, you know, started slowly, but it was tough, y- um, those days.
Tom Matthews:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
For the Californias, getting. But, you know, we, our wines, you know, in all honesty, I don't think, overall, our wines were, you know, g- good enough, across the board, to make that imprint, and I ... Th- fortunately, that's happened since then which is great. But, uh, -
Tom Matthews:
You know, this is another digression, Doug, but now that I have tasted more widely and, and learned a little bit more, I feel like, in some ways, the cream of the crop in Napa, in the '60s, was maybe a high point that didn't get reached again until possibly the '90s.
Doug Shafer:
Interesting, 'cause of -
Tom Matthews:
That, that-
Doug Shafer:
This ...
Tom Matthews:
... whole turbulence of the '70s, including, you know, your family and-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Matthews:
... so many families. You know, that y'all had to get started. You had to learn. You had to plant. You had to grow. You had to ... You know, it takes a while. And I, I think those '68s, you know, that was really weren't matched until we got into the '90s.
Doug Shafer:
Well, right, because the guys in the late '60s were like, um, Martini, Inglenook. Who's some of the other ones that were ... And they'd been making wine for a long time. They'd figured it out.
Tom Matthews:
Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
I'd say -
Tom Matthews:
In their style, my economist-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Matthews:
... them.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Yeah, 'cause we just, we had to, to, you know, put our training wheels on and (laughs) you know, fall over a few times and skin our knees more than once, or twice, which we did. And you learn from it, but yeah, there's that l- there's that, um, number of years until you kind of figure it out. Never thought about it that way. I do know-
Tom Matthews:
And how.
Doug Shafer:
... that I've had a couple of '68 Martini cabs that are just fabulous. Elias has a stash of it, and just like-
Tom Matthews:
Mm.
Doug Shafer:
... oh, my god, they're beautiful wines. Just amazing. All right. So you're-
Tom Matthews:
So ...
Doug Shafer:
So you're a wine buyer. Um ...
Tom Matthews:
So then, let me step back-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Matthews:
... one minute. And-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Matthews:
... before, I, I also thought, "Okay, maybe I can be an importer."
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Tom Matthews:
"That sounds like fun. I'll (laughter) go to the wineries, you know. I'll just bring in the wines I love and, you know, people will buy 'em 'cause th- I love 'em and they're great and that'll be great."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
And, uh (laughing). On one prospecting trip, I was in Paris. This is 1980. And s- crashing with a friend, and he said, "I'm going to a party. You want to come?" So I said, "Sure," and it turned out to be a 21st birthday party for a young woman from Georgia, studying abroad, named Sarah Williams. And I was not gonna leave that party until I had a, an i- a date with that girl.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Tom Matthews:
And I was the last person to leave the party.
Doug Shafer:
Did you -
Tom Matthews:
And I think she's agreed to see me the next day because she thought I was so drunk that I'd never even remember the address.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
But I remembered the address.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.
Tom Matthews:
And I found her, and, you know, now we're married 35 years.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. I was gonna ask you about Sarah, and how you met her. Thanks for telling me. That's, that's so romantic. I love it. That's super.
Tom Matthews:
So she was bold enough to move with me to New York City in '82, and she was very successful. She had trained as an architect and she was working in interior design and facilities management, and she was making way more money than I was, as a bartender. But, you know, I wasn't happy being a bartender, and she wasn't happy going into an office every day, and then we said, "You know what? Let's go back to France. Let's just quit everything and go back to France." So, in the fall of '86, that's what we did. We moved back to Bordeaux and, uh, we decided we were going to write a book about a small, life in a small wine village and see if we couldn't make a living as freelancers.
Doug Shafer:
Tom-
Tom Matthews:
And, and ...
Doug Shafer:
I just never knew that you were such a crazy guy, doing all (laughing) this stuff. This is wonderful. Okay. Continue.
Tom Matthews:
That's not now. (laughing)
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Tom Matthews:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.
Tom Matthews:
But, you know, she ... We honed our crafts and, uh, and I remember I wrote to Wine Spectator, uh, and I said, "I'm living in Bordeaux. I, I can write about Bordeaux. I, I know a lot about Bordeaux. You know, what do you need?" And they wrote back, and they said, "Well, you know, we, we cover Bordeaux pretty thoroughly. Uh, uh, w- we don't need anything. But thank you."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
I went, "Oh, shoot." (laughing) and now what. (laughing)
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Tom Matthews:
And then I just kept insisting and insisting, and finally, they said, "Okay. Here's a, here's a story. You can do a story." And I wrote a story about Chateau Suduiraut, which is in Sauternes, grapes-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Matthews:
Sweet wine producer, which had a wine school attached, like a satellite from the university. And, uh, they published a little story with a photo by Sarah, and that was our entrée, 1987, in the Wine Spectator.
Doug Shafer:
How cool. So you ask ... Curious about how it started out. So you were, basically, hired on as just to do an article here, an article there, like fr- freelance thing?
Tom Matthews:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Matthews:
And you know, Doug, at the same time, I was writing about architecture for Progressive Architecture Magazine. I mean, they were giving me much better assignments, and they paid better, too.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tom Matthews:
And if, if Progressive Architecture had wanted a Paris Bureau Chief, you know, maybe we wouldn't have, be having this conversation.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. Interesting.
Tom Matthews:
But instead, Mar- uh, Wine Spectator wanted a s- s- staff for in their London office to work with James Suckling. And, uh, James said, "Why don't you apply?"
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Tom Matthews:
So I thought, "Well, I, I'd finished the r- research for the book, really. We don't ... We're broke. We've never lived in London, might be fun. I'll write the book. You know, it'll be a big success. I'll go on and write another book, and I'll have a nice two, or three years, you know, with s- Wine Spectator." And then I met Marvin, and Marvin was like, "Wow. This guy, he's got a, he's got a vision."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
He's got (laughs) he's got energy. He said, "I, I, I ... " you know, he, he's, he totally sold me, that the Wine Spectator was going to be hugely successful in the future. So, fortunately, for me, offered me the job. We moved to London, and, uh, we spent a year and a half there.
Doug Shafer:
And that was - yeah, and that was ...
Tom Matthews:
'88, '89.
Doug Shafer:
'88 and '88, '89. Wow. Okay, so I love it. Let's back up a little bit because I'm k- I'm curious, and I think a lot of people are, who d- don't know the background because, um, but how the Wine Spectator started, and then how Marvin got involved, and how he has taken it, you know, over on in 30, or 40 years to what it is today and maintained it. Because I do remember, in the beginning, it was a, it was a newspaper thing. Right? I'm back ...
Tom Matthews:
Marvin tells the story much better than I can, but it was founded in 1976 in San Diego by a former PR guy named Robert Morrisey, who felt like there was a thirst for news and views about the wine industry. So he started this little biweekly newsprint thing and gave it away, free. He, you know, he had ... He ... And Marvin, immediately, had ... And Marvin had started his publishing career. He left Wall Street to begin in publisher with Impact, a spirits newsletter-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Matthews:
... in 1972. And he was always plugged in. And he saw this Wine Spectator, and he fell in love with it. So he became a sort of a pen pal with Morrisey. And Morrisey had no business experience, or publishing experience, and he really, he didn't know how to make it work. And Marvin kept helping him and helping him and, finally, Morrisey said, "Marvin, I can't do it."
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Tom Matthews:
I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna fold the publication." Marvin said, "You cannot fold the publication."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
"America needs this publication." And Morrisey said, "Well, you have to take it, then." Marvin said, "No, I can't take it. I'm barely making my own ends meet." He said, "Well, if you don't take it, it's gonna die." So Marvin said, "Okay, I'll take it." And he bought it.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Tom Matthews:
And that was in 1979. And, uh, he really had this vision that America was becoming interested in wine in a way that he could help. And, by god, he did.
Doug Shafer:
Well-
Tom Matthews:
And, you know, I, Doug, I look at Wine Spectator and Napa as kind of, uh, brothers from another mother. You know, they both kind of started their new lives in the '70s. You know, they both had this kind of turbulent period in the '80s, where they're trying to figure themselves out.
Tom Matthews:
In 1993, Marvin redesigned the publication to be the lifestyle, glossy magazine that it is today, just about the time Napa was hitting its stride.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Matthews:
And, you know, now we're basically the reference point, just like Napa has become the reference point for American wine, where it's like, and you, you know, your father was like Marvin, a pioneer taking on a new challenge. Really didn't know what he was doing, but had the talent and the hard work ethic to succeed. And then you and I are just trying to, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Right. (laughs)
Tom Matthews:
I think the wheel's on the wagon.
Doug Shafer:
We're trying (laughs) to hang on. I, we (laughs) That's a good ... Man. Mr. Parallel today. That's so true. Oh, I never thought about that, the Spectator's history, because I do know this. It's I was ... 'cause I was, obviously, thinking about our time together today and over the last few days and thinking about the Spectator. And it's like, you know, you, you nailed it. And I remember when he made that move to the lifestyle thing, or whatever. I think a lot of people were like, "Oh, what's going on. It's not gonna be about wine. He's doing food. He's doing this." And, you know, and that was brilliant because, at the time, you, you had ... You know, you got to keep changing. You got to keep moving. And I was ... That's one of my questions to you. What ... How did he do it? Because, you know, 30, or 40 years in it, your, your guys are still at the top of your game, and it's not easy. I mean, you've got the electronic thing. You know, media's, everybody says that, you know, media's coming, you know, the print media's coming to an end, and, um, what's the key? What, what, uh, what do you ... What's, what's Marvin's secret? What's your secret? How do you do it? A million questions here.
Tom Matthews:
Well, I'm the third editor of, uh, the magazine, and now, Jeffery Lindenmuth is following me. So I think we can say that it's not the editor that has driven Wine Spectator to become what it is. It really is Marvin and his vision. And I don't think i- really in all honesty, he could say that in 1979, when he took the mag- w- the magazine over, that it was gonna be this. I don't think ... You have to live the life and, uh, tackle each challenge as it comes and each opportunity as it comes. But, you know, trying to be open to the reader. What does the reader want? That is really what we've done. Well, you know, we're ... People, sometimes, think of it as a trade publication, and we have very close relationships with the trade. We love the people, but w- we do it for the reader, and the reader rewards us by buying the publication. And, you know, not to brag too much, but we figure that our paid circulation is greater than the paid circulation of every other wine publication in the world, put together. If you take the magazine and the website ... The website is like, number two. So it's all about the reader.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Matthews:
And, you know, the U.S. and wine, and winemakers have to make the same calculation. Am I going to, you know, just make wine that I want to drink? Or do I want to make a wine that many people want to drink.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tom Matthews:
Right? I mean ...
Doug Shafer:
Well, it's, it's called sustainable. It's being sustainable-
Tom Matthews:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... means staying in business, and so you have to pay attention to that.
Tom Matthews:
And Marvin has had a very good insight into what the, what the audience wants.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tom Matthews:
And I think, we, you know, we've been able to gather the resources and the expertise and the experience to deliver it.
Doug Shafer:
It's been an amazing run and continues. So, so you're in London. Coming back to you, you're in London for a while, a year, a year, or two, and then, y- how'd you get back to New York?
Tom Matthews:
Well, Marvin h- was growing his business, and he had moved into bigger offices, and he wanted a Wine Spectator person in the office. And, you know, there was the San Francisco staff, and none of them wanted to leave California.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
And then there was me and Suckling in London, and he didn't want to leave Europe. And I said, "Well, if you're gonna work for the Sun King, you might as well move to Versailles."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Right.
Tom Matthews:
(laughs) I have lived in New York and like it, so I said, "Yeah, we'll go back." And, so that I ... There was a few, few years there, '89 to '93, when I was the only Wine Spectator person there. And, you know, Marvin didn't really pay me any attention.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
I just was hidden in a little cubicle, doing my phone calls, trying to make myself useful, and, uh, every now and then I'd see the guys in California, and think, "Wow. Th- they're having fun out there. They're tasting wine. They're visiting wineries. You know, they're putting a magazine together. I'm just sitting here in New York calling people." In '93, he, he moved everybody to New York, like it, or not.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Matthews:
So then it was a bigger ... It was a happier group, and we started tasting in New York, and, uh, that was really thanks to Bruce Sanderson, who we hired from the Burgundy Wine Company. He set up our whole tasting program, and ...
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Matthews:
That has grown, over the time. And the '80s, the '90s were a really good time for wine and business.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, it was.
Tom Matthews:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. It was great for everybody. We were talking about that the other day, um, this funny story we came across. Somebody, somebody grabbed something out of a file and is like, "Oh, my god. We, Hillside Select, in one year, we raised the price from $60 a bottle to $85 a bottle.
Tom Matthews:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Like between the '94, '95 vintage. I'm like-
Tom Matthews:
Hmm.
Doug Shafer:
... going, $25 in one year? What were we thinking. But it happened. We did it, and the wines were flying out the door. You did the '90s- ... and we had ... It wasn't just Shafer. We were, the whole industry was just, was-
Tom Matthews:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... just popping. That's incredible.
Tom Matthews:
And, you know, and publishing, too, so we had a really nice run. And then, in '99, you know, when all the internet thing blew up, uh, there was a company that wanted a wine editor for their internet alcohol business, and, uh, the managing editor at the time, Jim Gordon, jumped ship.
Doug Shafer:
So that's when you took over.
Tom Matthews:
Yeah, so, I mean, again, and I said, I said Marvin didn't really know who I was.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
Uh, but I wrote him a letter, and I said, "You know what? I can do this job, and I want this job, and I think you should consider me."
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Tom Matthews:
So he sat on it for a while, and there were other people that were way ahead of me on the ... in, in his estimation.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tom Matthews:
But, uh, for some- ... reason he decided to take a gamble.
Doug Shafer:
Well, it ... I-
Tom Matthews:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... think it paid off, my friend.
Tom Matthews:
Well, it certainly paid off for me. I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Matthews:
... I never ... Eh, uh, uh, by this point in '93, my book was published, Village In The Vineyards ... and, uh, let us say it was not a big success. I mean, it got respectful reviews, but it didn't even earn back its advance. So I'm thinking, "You know what? I'm probably not gonna quit this job and go write another book, uh, because that was hard work."
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tom Matthews:
And by that point, I'd fallen in love with Wine Spectator, so I was ready to make a commitment, and if you'd ... I mean, thinking about wha- my past, the idea that I would be at one company for 33 years like my father, you gotta be kidding me.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that was ... That's not you, from what I heard (laughs) today.
Tom Matthews:
(laughs) But it turned out to be me.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Tom Matthews:
So, and, so grateful for the opportunity and the continuity.
Doug Shafer:
So wh- how'd that change your whole role at Spectator? Because before, you were kinda just one of the gang and doing your thing, and, and now you're executive editor. So how's that change? What, well, just, you ...
Tom Matthews:
I thought, yeah, how, how hard can it be? Well, in the first six months I got shingles.
Doug Shafer:
Oh. (laughs)
Tom Matthews:
A- and it was hard.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Matthews:
I- it was, it was hard from a number of reasons, points of view. First of all, my relationships changed with everybody.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Matthews:
Uh, you know, instead of being the colleague, I was the boss, and also managing people. That is hard work.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Matthews:
I mean, people are great, and if you can bring good things out of them, it's such an incredible sense of satisfaction for you and for them and for the business but, you know, it doesn't always go that smoothly. And then I really did not understand what it meant to be number two to Marvin. I- it, it was much more tumultuous and, uh, difficult and, and challenging than I imagined, but also so much more rewarding to be close to the guy and h- understand his decision-making process, his vision, and then try to turn that into reality. That has just been fun. But I have to say that, for me, the best part of the whole thing has been being part of the wine community.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Tom Matthews:
What an amazing world we live in, Doug. You know, I, I interviewed architects, uh, when I was writing about architecture, you know, I was in the restaurant business, I was in academia. As a group of people, none of them hold a candle to the-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
... diversity, the passion, the skill, the entrepreneurship of the wine industry. It's just, it's, there's no question.
Doug Shafer:
I would agree with that. I mean, I look at my fellow vintners, we're all, everybody's, everybody's so different, um, in so many ways. But also, there's that common thread, the ones who've been doin' this a long time, even a short time, of passion. The passion to create this product to grow these grapes to make the best wines you can year in, year out. I mean, that's just, it's just a given. I don't see a lotta these folks very much but when you do, it's just, everybody's hummin', they're just goin' after it. So, um ...
Tom Matthews:
Well, that's been one of the great things at the Wine Experience. At the Wine Experience, we introduced Christian Moueix of Petrus with Robert Drouhin from Burgundy.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
They had never met.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
We have, (laughs) we have brought so many great people together. And then, you know, the attendees, the loyal attendees who have been coming for 20 years and now bringing their gr- adult children. I mean, I've learned more from them than they've learned from me, these passionate collectors, drinkers, people in the world, so ...
Doug Shafer:
And with the, the adult ch- the adult children, I've been noticin' that the last few years, it's like, "Well, here's my son or my daughter." It's like, "Wait a minute, (laughs) where'd you come from?"
Tom Matthews:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And they're like, and the kids are like, "Oh, Shafer," you know, "Dad always pops it at Hillside at Christmas," blah, blah, blah, blah, and off they go. It's pretty cool.
Tom Matthews:
Yeah, yeah, it's so great. To be able to be a part of this world has just been a, a g- a great gift.
Doug Shafer:
It is. When did the Wine Experience start up? Were you part of that? Uh, you had to be, probably.
Tom Matthews:
Not at the beginning.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Matthews:
It started, there, it ... That's another complicated history that ... So in 1981, Robert Mondavi created what he called the California Wine Experience in San Francisco at one of those great hotels. And the same year, Marvin had the first Grand Award banquet, because the first class of Grand Award Winning Restaurants in New York City at Windows On The World. Two separate events. The Windows On The world, The Grand Award banquet was sold out, huge success. Uh, the Wine Experience in California was apparently a total failure. They just couldn't get it together and they called Marvin, they said, "We need your help." So he took it over-
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Tom Matthews:
... and turned it into a charity event and combined the two, so that we had the Wine Experience with the tastings and the seminars, plus the Grand Award banquet to honor the restaurants. And, uh, you know, since then, it's raised $20 million for charity.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. It's incredible.
Tom Matthews:
And we've had James Brown twice as the music.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
We had a vertical tasting of Shafer, a vertical tasting of the Lafite, a, you know, the greatest wines of the world. And um, it's just been, oh, i-
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Tom Matthews:
... there's nothing like it.
Doug Shafer:
I gotta tell you, you know it's the, it's one of the highlights of our year, f- for sure. 'Cause, you know, we st- I st- we do a lot of traveling and sales and events, and we just love it. And I've got s- you know, I was on a Chardonnay panel one time with Jim Laube and six other people and, I ran into Laube in the, the lobby. He goes, "Shafer?" I go, "Yeah, Jim?" He goes, "You ready?" I go, "Yeah." He goes, "You gotta ..." He go- he goes (laughs) "You gonna be funny." I said, "Well, I got a coupla jokes."
Tom Matthews:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
He goes, "Good." I go, "Why?" He goes, "Well, I just met two of the other panelists. I'm worried." (laughs) So, think, it was like, "Okay, I got this one." And then, uh, w- we did that vertical-
Tom Matthews:
What was it like presenting re- Relentless as wine of the year?
Doug Shafer:
Well, that's, so I was gettin' to that. So I did the vertical in Chicago with Dad and Elias, that was amazing. And I, you know, I've been in front of lots of crowds, but I gotta tell you, Tom, when I got up there and sat down, looked out at a thousand people, it's like, "Oh, man, this is, this is, this is serious." (laughs) And, uh, that was a kick. But then Wine of The Year was, was the best, the 2008 Relentless. By the way, thank you guys again for that, it was quite an honor. But it was great. We, um, I had my whole family back, all my kids, in-laws. Um, I got to, uh, I had to, to be on the panel and g- got to speak. And, uh, you know, recognize my dad sitting right there in the front row, which was a, a magical moment I'll never forget.
Tom Matthews:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And then, uh, and the next night or that night at the banquet, you know, he was able to receive the, the award from, uh, from Jim, which was great and being part of that. So it was, yeah, I'll never forget it. It was, so it's one of the most special things that ever happened to us so, pretty cool. Great memories.
Tom Matthews:
A- and I was happy that, you know, a Napa wine, but not a Cabernet, got the award. I think that was ... I love the curve ball of that.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I was pretty surprised 'cause, you know, you think, "Well, Hillside Select, of course, but, but Relentless?" It's like, "Yeah, we love it, but cool." So-
Tom Matthews:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... you know, it's, we've had a lotta fun with that one. So, good memories.
Tom Matthews:
Well, you've always been willing to think outside the box, and I think that is what the wine world needs. You know, it needs faithfulness to tradition, yes, but it also needs willingness to take a risk.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, it, definitely. I had a question for you. Because you've been there at the Spectator when all this stuff, all the online, internet, the whole media world shifted, serious shift, you know, to online and presence which you guys have done. How did you, what was that like in your shoes? I mean, that, it's, all of a sudden, it's there, it's happening. What was the thought process that, with you guys that, and how to deal with the whole shift in media and print media?
Tom Matthews:
Well, I would say there's three aspects that changed and needed to be addressed. Um, first was the technology. You know, how do we put this up there, get this out there, find our audience? And it was not evident in the mid '90s when we launched, and it's been challenge ever since because it doesn't, it's not like the printing pa- presses, everything is changing all the time. So to keep up with technology has been ... I don't, I don't even know anything about it. I just happy when it works.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
The second thing has been the revenue model, how to make a business out of it. Um, that has been a huge challenge. Marvin was very early in erecting a paywall. Uh, and when we saw the New York Times and these other major publications giving away their content for viewers, you said, "No, no, no, you're makin' a huge mistake."
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Tom Matthews:
And ultimately, they agreed that it was a huge mistake and now they're trying to, you know, claw back the subscribers, but we've always had paying subscribers. And, uh, you know, so we've managed to make a business out of it. And then finally, you know, it's the content. I mean, ultimately, I think the delivery system and the business model are secondary to the ability to find and hold an audience. And that's what we did with the print publication and that's what we had to do with the digital, online part, too, and I think, you know, it's working.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Matthews:
And it's basically, you know, you have its integrity, its accuracy, its fairness, it's interesting, being interesting and lively, and listening to the reader and seeing what they want.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Matthews:
So our, our website has a t- quite a different character from the print publication. It's more irreverent, it's, um, it's kind of shorter, faster, funnier.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tom Matthews:
Um, but it's still built on blind tastings, expertise, fair reporting, and listening to the reader.
Doug Shafer:
Another question I have is, how do you maintain, you know, the, your core readers you've had forever, and also attract the new kids, the young kids? And, uh, this is almost a natural, isn't it?
Tom Matthews:
The, the, we feel like the website is our bridge-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Matthews:
... for the younger generation. I mean, I, I, there have been publications, venerable legacy publications that tried to change their DNA to attract a different, younger, hipper demographic, I think, most famously of Gourmet Magazine-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tom Matthews:
... uh, and utterly failed. Because they lost their older readers without replacing them with younger readers. Very risky to do that. I think, you know, we have our character and even though our average age of our print reader is 50ish-
Tom Matthews:
... you know, uh, when the current 20-somethings have careers and disposable income and our interest, you know, they'll come to us. In the meantime, we're gonna give them the kinds of information they're looking for about celebrities and pop wines and natural wines and, you know, that kind of thing-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tom Matthews:
... on the webs- on the website.
Doug Shafer:
No, you guys have done a great job with that. And, uh, and how do you ... Y- you've mentioned more than once about giving the customers what they want, how do you know what they want? Is t- are they writin' letters to you guys? Do you do surveys? Do you, um, 'cause that's, that's a challenge for us here. You know, how, w- what, who's my customer? What do they want? I mean, we're always, you know, striving to find that answer.
Tom Matthews:
So partly, it's Marvin. Marvin has an idea of ... He's the reader, you know? A- and what he likes, the readers will like, and in large case, he's, he's true. I mean, he, he sees where interest is flowing, 'cause he talks to a lotta people and he's in a lot of worlds. Also, at the website at least, you know, you get immediate feedback, you can track what people are clicking on. So, you know, if they click 1000 times on one story and 10 times on the other, it's like, "Well, okay- That's what they want." And then for print, it's really more about subscriptions. You know, well, how is your renewal rate? Our renewal rate is way, way above the industry average. People just don't stop. And they don't even throw it away. I don't know if you've been in people's houses? I mean, there's, they have stacks of Wine Spectator. It's, it's just-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Yeah, w-
Tom Matthews:
... so (laughs) amazing to me.
Doug Shafer:
I have seen 'em.
Tom Matthews:
You know they, they'll dig out an article from 20 years ago, you know, that speaks to a s- an ins- an interest they have or a travel story that we did five years ago. And they were, always wanted to go to Sicily.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Matthews:
And now they've got their list of addresses so, you have to have a touch for it. And, you know, you guys clearly have a touch for it, and, uh, Marvin has a touch for it.
Doug Shafer:
Right. No, it's, no, you guys have done a great job with it. Um, I had another question 'cause I think not just myself, I think a lotta people listening. Since a big part of the Wine Spectator is wine reviews and critiques, um, and you guys, you're tasting all the time and the reviews, how do you, how's it, how's it work? How's it set up? What's the philosophy? You've got different people doing different things? Do you taste as a group? Um, how do you avoid burnout? All those types of things. How's, what's the, the backstory on the whole tasting program?
Tom Matthews:
So at one Wine Experience, Marvin decided to have a blind tasting with the editors.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Okay.
Tom Matthews:
And each editor had to pick a wine that nobody else knew and we were all sitting up there on the panel. And, um, before we began the tasting, I said to Marvin, "You know, why don't you just ask Bruce," who was the tasting director at the time, "how we do this, so that people will have a sense of, you know, what's going on?" So Marvin said, "Sure, that sounds like a good idea." And he said, "Bruce," a thousand people out there, "How-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
... how do we taste wines? How do, what's our, what's our methodology and our philosophy?" And Bruce says, "Well, you know, we use the 100-point scale, and you know we do all blind tasting. So what we do is, uh, we put on our blindfolds, and we have this dartboard.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
And the dartboard has the 70s on the outside, 80s, 90s and 100 is the bullseye.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
And we throw darts and wherever it lands, that's the score."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) He di- he said that in front of a thousand people?
Tom Matthews:
He said it. Marvin went ballistic.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Tom Matthews:
He, the look on his face was priceless.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, God, way to go, Bruce. Awesome.
Tom Matthews:
(laughs) But I, I mean, I really have to say that I think our tasting methodology, which we've evolved over the years is the most professional in the business. The whole goal is to get each wine an equal and fair chance to show its best. And the whole methodology is aimed at winding, getting to that point. Each editor has tasting beats that they're responsible for, 'cause we think experience is key to evaluation. So Bruce has been tasting Burgundy for 20 years. I've been tasting Spain for 20 years. You know, occasionally there's a shift, like, uh, James Molesworth has just taken over Cabernet from Jim Laube. But he had a lot of experience drinking Cabernet, plus he was the Bordeaux reviewer. So, it's not like we threw him into a place where he couldn't swim. Then, we give each taster a budget for their regions. How many wines can he taste? Because, you know, we're only 10 tasters. And we just don't have that many resources to taste every wine in the world.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Matthews:
So I get a budget, say 750 wines for Spain. So then I have to decide, okay, which ones? So we let, we, we ask the producers and their importers to submit requests of wines that they would like us to review. Then we look through the requests. We see what is the track record of this wine, how much does it cost? How much is made? What's its distribution? And we try to pick the wines to review that we think are most interesting to our readers and most available. I mean, there, there's nothing like giving a 97 point review to a wine where there's 30 cases for the US.
Doug Shafer:
That's a tough one. (laughs)
Tom Matthews:
You know, (laughs) so, that just makes more enemies than friends.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Matthews:
So we try to shape the, the, the group of wines that we review in an intelligent way. The wineries send in the wines for the most part, we do purchase wines if they're important enough. I mean, if you decided, for example, you didn't want us to review Hillside Select, well, we would say, "Well, our readers want to know what we think of Hillside Select so we would go out and buy it."
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Matthews:
But mostly, people don't do that because they want to make sure that the samples we get are good samples.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Tom Matthews:
That they didn't go through some shipping, retail, whatever. So then we have a whole crew of tasting coordinators who receive the samples, unpack the boxes, check the wines into our computers and set them up in tasting flights. Flights that makes sense. So I might do 15 Riojas-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Matthews:
... or I might do 15 Albarinos. Molesworth might do 15 wines from Oakville or 15 wines from Sonoma. We say that the flights can't be more than 25 wines and no taster can do more than two flights in a day. Because we don't ... It's tiring. I mean, you do it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Matthews:
You know, if you're trying to p- if you're payin' attention, you're really trying to analyze the wine, it's not just sip and scribble.
Doug Shafer:
No, it's tough. Uh, those are good parameters. I like that. It's good to hear.
Tom Matthews:
And then, of course, all the wines are blind.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Matthews:
They're all tasted in our own locations. You know, we control the temperature, the lighting, the stemware, uh, the odors in the room, everything is optimal, and everything is the same for every wine, to the point of getting that fair and equal opportunity. So I'll taste my 18 Riojas, and, uh, then when I'm done, I push the bags off button on the computer, and I finally can see what I'm tasting. All, all I know beforehand is the vintage and the appellation, and if it's appropriate, the grape variety. So, then I see what I've got. And each flight begins with a benchmark of previously scored wine we taste non-blind, just to kinda get ourselves calibrated.
Doug Shafer:
Smart. I like that.
Tom Matthews:
And within each wine is a ringer of previously-reviewed wines so that we can match our current score with our previous review. See, uh, you know, are we, is it, are we on target?
Doug Shafer:
That's a cool th- ... I didn't know that. That's a great idea.
Tom Matthews:
So I would say, you know, if I'm right on on my ringer, and there's no flawed bottles, uh, I still will probably choose one or two wines to retaste-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Matthews:
... because they scored much higher than their track record or much lower than their track record, or it just didn't make sense. So I would say, "No, I'm gonna taste the second bottle of that wine." And it'll go back into another flight. And then, you know, there you have it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Matthews:
The reviews are, are made public and, um, the our reader gets the review first. We never tell the producer the score, the, you know, or the review before it's public knowledge. And, uh, there we go, then if, you know, if, when it gets to 97, it flies off the shelf.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) No, you guys have a lotta influence, so it's great t- ... Thank you for sharing that with us because it's really good to hear. 'Cause it is important, and that 97 can, you know, make or break it, and, uh, it's good to hear that you guys take it very seriously and have those controls weaved into the process, um, to make it as objective as possible. So, appreciate it.
Tom Matthews:
To me, it's a, it's a, you know, I, I don't feel like I'm the judge and the wine is the defendant in the dock. I feel like it's a dialogue. I'm trying to learn from the wine what it has to say and, you know, I'm applying my experience, everything that I've learned over the years to my interpretation. And the fact that it's blind makes it so that I, I'm only interpreting what's actually in the glass.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Matthews:
And, you know, that is a fascinating process, and I, I don't claim that I always get it right. There's times when I think, "You know what, I just missed that.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tom Matthews:
It, it's, and I'm, I'm gonna give it another shot." That's, you know, why not? We're not i- ... Nobody gets it right every time.
Doug Shafer:
Big picture question, you've been doin' this, like myself, for 20 or 30 years plus, um, in the last 20+ years, biggest changes you've seen in the industry and, and what stayed the same? Any thoughts?
Tom Matthews:
I think that a couple of things have happened. One is we've moved away from a period of, uh, what I call processed wines. Just like with foods, uh, there was a period in the f- '60s, '70s where industrialized processes kind of edged into the vineyard, and the cellar. And that was a change from historical wine growing, and not a good one. And I think that wineries have realized that, and now are getting back to a much more respectful position towards the land, the vineyard, the grapes, and the wine making. So there's more transparency, there's more authenticity, uh, and there's more interest in the wines that result. Uh, and I think that's been a huge positive change. Also, I would say that the wine world has just exploded. I, I mean, I-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
... when I, when I went to Chile in 1993, there was five wineries, maybe. You know, using old Redwood rally tanks, I mean, i- it ... You know, there wasn't, there was no Argentina, there was no New Zealand. There was no, I mean, most of Spain was still undeveloped. Half of California didn't even exist. So, we are living in a bounteous age of wine. Just so great.
Doug Shafer:
I'd agree. I would totally agree with that. That's really true.
Tom Matthews:
And I would say, the third thing that I really see is that wine has become part of American culture. It's no longer the snobby thing that the rich person or the person who went to Europe, you know, effects as a way of showing their status. Um, the hip hop stars have wine, the NBA, the NFL guys have wine, the movie stars have wine. Wine's on the table, it's in the supermarkets. You know, it's part of our lives in many different ways, but in an integrated way that I think is, is fantastic. As a culture, yeah, uh, it should be that way. And I'm so happy to see that.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Oh, me, too. Yeah. And not just because I'm in the business, but it's because I think it's a really good thing. 'Cause there's variety, and there's texture, and there's stories, and there's, um, it's just more, there's more ... (laughs) Culture's the wrong word to use, but just more, again, like you said, it's not just a processed thing like, you know, uh, makin' vodka or somethin' like that.
Tom Matthews:
Well, we have to eat and drink. And, uh, you know, let's not just make it a machine thing where we fuel our needs. Let's make an as- an aesthetic thing and a philosophical thing where we enjoy and learn from the things we eat and drink.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tom Matthews:
Wine, there's nothing like wine as a vehicle for complex enjoyment and, and great exploration.
Doug Shafer:
So that's, that's somethin' that's stayed the same. We all need to eat and drink, and that will continue.
Tom Matthews:
Yeah. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I got one crazy question for you. Wh- what's something that you think or you wish consumers knew or understood about wineries and winemakers and even the wine press that you don't think they might know?
Tom Matthews:
I think, to really understand that it's an agricultural product, for the most part. I mean, yes, there are still mass-produced, kind of industrial wines, but the wines that we care about, the wines that you make, the wines that our readers are drinking, they are the products of the earth. And you can't expect uniformity, you can't expect that each year to be the same. You wouldn't, shouldn't want it to be uniform or the same, you should revel in that there's differences and the "imperfections" and that, and just kind of, you know, don't think of it as a, a- as something manufactured and perfectible. Think of it as something agricultural and, and real.
Doug Shafer:
I totally agree. In fact, sometimes, sometimes we'll pop a wine home, it's like, i- it's, it's just not workin'. There's nothing wrong with it. It's fine-
Tom Matthews:
Mm.
Doug Shafer:
... but it's just not workin'. Maybe like it's not working with whatever we're eating, whether that's a-
Tom Matthews:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... that's not a positive or negative. But it's almost more fun to try to dissect what's goin' on. Why isn't this working on my palette? You know, what's-
Tom Matthews:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
'Cause I, I've had this wine before, a different setting and it was like, it tasted fine. Why is it happening like this now? I love doing that. I do. It's almost like I look for the, the-
Tom Matthews:
In the-
Doug Shafer:
... mismatches more than the matches.
Tom Matthews:
People ask me, you know, "Well, what's, what's the best wine you ever drank? What's your favorite wine?"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Matthews:
You know ...
Doug Shafer:
Tom, what's the favorite? What's your favorite wine of all time? I wanna hear it.
Tom Matthews:
Yeah. Well, uh, you know, there's no answer. Because it's all a matter of the moment and the context. And so many bottles have been perfect in their moment, but would not have been even memorable outside of that moment. And that's, you know, thank God for every moment that we ever, uh, that those memories can be made.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah. And here's a, here's an important one. What's, what's something you wish vintners like me understood about the wine press?
Tom Matthews:
I mean, we're just glad that you do your job as well as you do and we hope that, you know, you recognize that we're doin' our job as best we can, and that w- we all need to support each other. We help you get your message across, you give us access to a world that's important to us.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tom Matthews:
If we can think of ourselves as partners more than adversaries. I mean, not in the sense that I'm gonna scratch your back so you'll scratch mine, but in the sense that our goals are the same. We're trying to educate people about this beverage that we love. We're trying to do it to the best of our abilities. You know, let's help each other achieve a goal that's good for everybody.
Doug Shafer:
Well, and I think that's, I think that's really happened, you know, over the last eight to 10 years where I think before that, there, it was more adversarial, um, unfortunately, and I think we've all gotten it. You know, and just by the way, just like the Wine Experience, it's t- time to spend with each other, like you and me, chit-chattin' over something and we can agree friendly, we can friendly agree to disagree on whatever, even one of my wines and that's fine.
Tom Matthews:
Mm.
Doug Shafer:
And I've, what I love about the Spectator, it's, it's fun to read the scores and all that, but I just love the articles because they're so in-depth and all of a sudden, I'm readin' about some region and, and wine region in the world I don't know about, I've never been to, and all of a sudden, I'm gettin' the backstory 'cause you guys do a really great job with that, so my compliments. 'Cause all of a sudden, I'm done with the article, and it's like, "Wow, I kinda, I get that now, I get what Barolo is all about. J- I wanna go there, you know, I wanna go see all that, that, whole, that whole area and those wines." So that's, I think that's helped a lot because it's, um, it's, y- the scores and reviews we talked about but that's not the, to me, that's not the focus. I don't think it is for most of your consumer, consumers. I could be wrong, but I think it's the, the education they get from the Spectator.
Tom Matthews:
Well, you know, Doug, you've h- hit a, a point that's very important for us. Marvin always says we're not in the publishing business, we're in the education business.
Doug Shafer:
Ha (laughs).
Tom Matthews:
And that's really-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, you're gonna love this, that's what my father used to say. (laughs)
Tom Matthews:
Hm, hm.
Doug Shafer:
No, he would, oh, I don't mean to, you know, jump- jump in here.
Tom Matthews:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But we did a parallel with Marvin and you and Dad and me.
Tom Matthews:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But, a lot of our marketing materials Dad used to, he was into guerilla marketing and, uh, instead of coming out with something saying how wonderful our cabernet is, it's like, "Hey, let's, uh, let's do an educational piece. Let's- let's do a piece on what it's like to farm a hillside vineyard." You know?
Tom Matthews:
Hm.
Doug Shafer:
And just, and do an in-depth piece, we've produced a few of them.
Tom Matthews:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, it was great. It was a great way to get your name out without tooting your own horn, so.
Tom Matthews:
Well, even this podcast, Doug. I mean, I don't see what the commercial value for you is.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) No-
Tom Matthews:
But you're doing a great job educating people, you know, about dif- I, uh, the winemakers you have on all have interesting things to say.
Doug Shafer:
It's been so much fun and it, um, yeah, we didn't really do it for, you know, we just said let's- let's do something new. Kinda like, uh, you guys going online and a new- new format and way of doing it. But what's happened is I've had so much fun and I've learned so much. Look- look what I've learned about you today, you know, Mr.- Mr., you know, switch here, switch there and then up for the 30-year gig. I mean, it's fun. So, um, we'll keep doing it on my end.
Tom Matthews:
Well, if I can leave your readers, your listeners, with one piece of advice, it would be that, uh, what might look like a detour could turn out to be the exact change in direction that you needed in your life, and every challenge is an opportunity, and you just gotta go for it.
Doug Shafer:
I think we'll take that and run with it and, uh, words to- words to live by. Don't let me forget that, Tom. Things-
Tom Matthews:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
... in the future as things pop up in both our lives. S- so, Mr. Matthews, thank you so much for, uh, spending the time with us and all your stories and the Wine Spectator and everything else. What's- what's happening with you? You're stepping down as executive editor, but you're st- are you still gonna be involved? Is that my understanding-
Tom Matthews:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
... with the Spectator?
Tom Matthews:
Yeah, I- I'm ready to give up the daily pressure of the, of the magazine and the website, uh, and Jeff is gonna do a great job bringing new energy and new ideas. But I could never abandon the wine community or Marvin. I mean, they're both just too important to me, so he's agreed to let me stay on as an editorial advisor.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Matthews:
Uh, my primary responsibility will be helping to organize and plan this year's Wine Experience, which will be our 40th Wine Experience, uh, and the 45th anniversary of the magazine's founding, so we're planning on a huge party.
Doug Shafer:
Wow, great.
Tom Matthews:
And it's gonna be a great event, and we expect you to be there, bells on your shoes.
Doug Shafer:
I will be there dancing. (laughs)
Tom Matthews:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
All right.
Tom Matthews:
All right.
Doug Shafer:
Tom, thanks again for your time, man. Be good, we'll see you soon.
Tom Matthews:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
All right, thanks.
Tom Matthews:
Bye.
Doug Shafer:
Bye-bye.