Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Doug Shafer, back with another episode of The Taste. And today, we've got a, a special guest, Robert Mark Kamen, who's written a bunch of great movies like Taps, the original Karate Kid films, Fifth Element, Le-Lethal Weapon 3, Transporter Films, A Walk In the Clouds, the Taken films, and on and on and on. In the middle of that, he's become one of Sonoma's top wine makers with his place, Kamen Estate Wines. So welcome, Robert.
Robert Kamen:
Hello, Doug.
Doug Shafer:
I've been looking forward to talking to you. You're making movies, you're making wine. I mean, how cool, how cool is your life?
Robert Kamen:
My life is very cool. Hold on, let me ask my wife. How cool is my life, Lonnie? "Pretty cool," she said.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
My life is my life. It's, uh... I've been doing movies and, uh, the vineyard for 40 years.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Robert Kamen:
I got the raw land that became my vineyard with my first screenwriting check and haven't looked back since, except on the canceled checks that, uh, seem to go into this endless piece of ground that I became obsessed with.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) And you and I, I think we've chatted before, but we have a connection, uh, through my son.
Robert Kamen:
Yes, we do.
Doug Shafer:
Which is pretty cool. Tell me about that. How'd that happen?
Robert Kamen:
He works for my friend, Lorenzo di Bonaventura, who, I've known for probably 35 years. Uh, when Lorenzo was working at Warner's. I did a number of, uh, screenplays with Lorenzo, and I find, low and behold, Steven Shafer is, is working for Lorenzo. And I had tried to use that leverage to pry Relentless Syrah out of his hands, and he tells me you only give him a bottle or two.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Yeah, I make all my kids pay for the wine.
Robert Kamen:
Hey, that's fantastic.
Doug Shafer:
Well, except for Christmas. They get a little extra at Christmas. But, uh, no, we-
Robert Kamen:
I've tried really hard. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
We'll, uh, we'll talk after this. I'll take care of you. I can set you up.
Robert Kamen:
Great.
Doug Shafer:
Good. So, uh, talk to me. Where... Your story. Where were you born? Wh-...
Robert Kamen:
Well, I was born in a city housing project in the Bronx. Um, and, uh, went to high school in New York, and, uh, went to University at NYU up in the Bronx. Then went to, uh, the University of Pennsylvania for graduate school where I did a PhD. Spent a bunch of time in Afghanistan. Came home, while I was doing my dissertation, I wrote a novel about Afghanistan. A cousin of mine knew a director who said I should turn the novel into a screenplay, which I did. And low and behold, six weeks later Warner Brothers bought it.
Doug Shafer:
Holy cats. So I need to roll it back. So growing up in the, in the Bronx, um, mom and dad? What were they into?
Robert Kamen:
Orthodox Judaism.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. (laughter)
Robert Kamen:
And my father was a CPA, and my mom was, um, a medical secretary.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
You know, it was... I grew up in a fairly religious house. But it was not, it was not confining at all, because we, I lived in a city housing project, and I spent most of my time in the streets with a bunch of ruffians.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
So I had a great balance of structure and chaos.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
It was wonderful.
Doug Shafer:
Now, was wine in the house, or alcohol? Beer, wine-
Robert Kamen:
No.
Doug Shafer:
Nothing?
Robert Kamen:
There was Manischewitz in the house, Doug.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
You ever drink Manischewitz?
Doug Shafer:
I, I have. I have in Chicago. That's what my dad used to drink.
Robert Kamen:
Oh, great. It's enough to make you not want to drink wine again.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Gets you into beer.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's pretty funny. You were in, um, Afghanistan. And what... so tell me again why you were there.
Robert Kamen:
In graduate school-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
I got a grant to spend a year with a bunch of nomads.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
And which I did, in 1971, '72.
Doug Shafer:
And so, you're how old? You're like, early 20s?
Robert Kamen:
Oh, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
I was 23... I was 23 years old.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
Uh, and I got on a camel in, um... When did I get on a camel? I got on a camel in June, and I got off the camel-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
In, um, Ap-April or May. And I just followed the, the migratory routes of these nomads for 11 months. Um-
Doug Shafer:
That must have been wild.
Robert Kamen:
And... it was wild. And, uh, two years later, I went back, and I spent six months in Waziristan. And during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, I ran a refugee relief program, so I got to go there even more. Um, and it... Afghanistan has played a large part in my life.
Doug Shafer:
Fascinating. And so were you writing at this time too?
Robert Kamen:
In '85, I was, when I was doing the refugee relief stuff, I was writing screenplays. I started, uh, I got my first movie made in 1979 with Taps.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
So I was deep into, uh, screenwriting at that point. In '71, '72, I was just writing academic stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Robert Kamen:
You know, papers and working on my dissertation for my PhD.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, and then so the wine thing kicked in when you came back, you came back to New York-
Robert Kamen:
So in probably '74, a-about '73, '74, I went into this wine shop, and I said to the... I was curious, and I said, "I'd like to learn about wine."
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
And the guy gave me, for $1000, for the entire year, kept giving me a case at a time of, um, first and second growth Bordeauxs. And I was getting Latours for $12.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
And, um-
Doug Shafer:
You, you gotta be kidding me.
Robert Kamen:
And I... Oh, no, no, no. My big kick is that I didn't buy mo-, a ton of these things 'cause I didn't know.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
But I was drinking '66 Latours and '64 Haut Brions and all this crazy stuff. And I drink wine, and I'd go back to the guy, and he'd say, "Well, what did you taste?" And I'd say, "Well, it was a little sour, and it was a little bitter." And he'd say, "No, that's this. This is this." And after a year, he taught me about, he taught me about wine. And I knew about wine. And, and then I just sort of took it from there.
Doug Shafer:
But look how-
Robert Kamen:
And then as my friends started making money, I was the wine guy.
Doug Shafer:
Look how you started. You started drinking first growths.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
I star-, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I started on, I started on-
Robert Kamen:
I started off drinking first growths.
Doug Shafer:
I started on Boone's Farm up on a beach in Michigan. Jeez.
Robert Kamen:
Right, exactly. (laughter)
Doug Shafer:
I mean, you know-
Robert Kamen:
Boone's Farm apple wine.
Doug Shafer:
Remember that? Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
I do, I remember it from 1971. (laughs) It's horrible.
Doug Shafer:
Boone's Farm, if I wanted to impress somebody, I got a bottle of, of Mateus. Remember Mateus?
Robert Kamen:
Mateus.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
Or, or one of those, uh, the woven baskets of Chianti for $2.
Doug Shafer:
Right. (laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So that was your that guy was your educator, and that, uh...
Robert Kamen:
Yeah, Sam. He was great. He was great.
Doug Shafer:
What was the name of his place? Was it called Sam's, or was it another place?
Robert Kamen:
It was called The Surrey.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
And it's no longer there. It's probably now a cashmere shop or something.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Robert Kamen:
You know, it was on Madison Avenue and 69th Street. And he was, he was great, 'cause he learned wine by going to Bordeaux during World War II and he, he drank with these guys. You know, these guys, they were poor. The war had devastated them.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
And, and he... and so they would, you know, anything in their cellar, he could drink. And for the right amount of chocolate, sugar, uh, or tobacco.
Doug Shafer:
He traded-
Robert Kamen:
And he did, and he learned all about it.
Doug Shafer:
Man, that's fascinating. So, so your education, your early wine education was mostly European, not, not California or the states.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah, I didn't know from California wine.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
I mean I, I didn't know from it for the longest time. And you know, the idea that, that I would end up here doing this is only because I came here to celebrate my first screenplay. And I was taken to a piece of land that overlooks the San Francisco Bay. And I l-, and I bought it for the view. I didn't buy it to go into the wine business.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Robert Kamen:
But I face the Monte Rosso vineyard, right?
Doug Shafer:
Which is beautiful.
Robert Kamen:
I face it. I'm looking at it, I'm looking at it right now.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Robert Kamen:
And I figured, "Oh, yeah. Oh, there's wine growing there." And I, and I had had the Louis Martini Cabs from that vineyard from the ‘50s.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
And I said, "If Louis can do it, I can do it."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughs) Well, Louis took, you know, the 70s... We moved out here in '73, and dad started making wine in '78. And even in the early 80s-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
When we tried to sell wine in New York, it was really tough because the-
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Whole, this whole country, especially East Coast, was very European centric on wine. So California wines were just coming on.
Robert Kamen:
And still is, and still is.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Good point. Good point.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah, and still is. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But I remember, uh, Dad, Dad wanted to plant a hillside vineyard, and no one was doing it. And he was friends with Louis -
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Louis Martini, and Louis said, "Come on. I'll take you over to Monte Rosso and show you how to do it." So they jumped in a truck and drove over and did it. And that, it's, I love this. That's great.
Robert Kamen:
So, so... the, the corollary story is when I bought the place, I met Phil Coturri who a-at the time was just hippie scum.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
He has since turned into the most valued organic wine, wine viticulturalist in northern California. And Phil learned how to do grape vines from a guy named Joe Miami who helped Louis Martini plant the Monte Rosso vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, I didn't know that.
Robert Kamen:
And our first cuttings... Oh, yeah. Joe Miami, now there's a name for you.
Doug Shafer:
There's a name.
Robert Kamen:
Joe Miami. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I'm thinking, I'm thinking that's gotta work its way into a screenplay somewhere. (laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Yeah. It's a great name. And, and so when we started, the first cuttings we have the, my first clones came from the cabernet over on Monte Rosso. So we still have, I have, uh, probably 12 acres left of original Monte Rosso clones that went from there... I'm looking at the Monte Rosso vineyard as we're talking.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Robert Kamen:
It went from there over to here, and I've had that for... 38 years now.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Robert Kamen:
Those clones.
Doug Shafer:
So Phil helped you plant the place. Was there a house on it or anything? Any development?
Robert Kamen:
No.
Doug Shafer:
It was just bare land.
Robert Kamen:
Doug, there was, it was raw land, 1500 feet up. No road. No water. No electricity.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. And you're living, you're living in New York or LA? At that time?
Robert Kamen:
At the time, Actually at the time, I was living between New York and Crested Butte, Colorado.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, all right. Fair enough.
Robert Kamen:
Uh, I had a place in Crested Butte, Colorado, and, um, and then when the screenplays kicked in, I started this insane commute between New York, LA, New York, LA, uh, Sonoma.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
And as time, time went on, um, I was a-all over the world writing screenplays.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
Going to every place. I was every place, and, you know, um... I spent a bunch of time in Paris. Um... because I was partnered up with a great French film director, Luc Besson, and we were writing all these movies together. And because of that, I started spending a lot of time in Chateau Neuf du Pape and got to be good friends with people there. And, um, I was friends with Jean-Louis Chav’s then girlfriend, now wife, Erin.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Kamen:
And I started spending weekends in Hermitage. And that's when I got turned on to Syrah, and that's when I planted Syrah. Um-
Doug Shafer:
Wow, so you-
Robert Kamen:
It's a good thing I didn't, I didn't spend... Oh, yes. And because I'm impulsive-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
I spent some time in Tuscany, and I came home and said, "I want to plant Sangiovese."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughter) Yeah, I-
Robert Kamen:
I was like, "I'll try anything!"
Doug Shafer:
I've heard that one before. My, my old man pulled that one on me back in '81. Um-
Robert Kamen:
Yeah, yeah. Sangiovese, sales-proof wine. It's great.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Um, I'm just, so in... pardon me for, you know, not being more tuned in, especially with my son in the business, I should know this. But as a screenwriter, like when they're, when they're shooting a film on location, do you have to be there? Are you on site?
Robert Kamen:
No. Uh, unless they specifically want me to be there, I try not to be there. Because what am I doing? If they need me, of course, I'm there. But most of the time, I try to stay away. My work is done.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
If they need additional lines, they can call me up. If they need structural work, that means I didn't do my job, and I have to be there. But I try to stay away. I try to stay here in Sonoma on the vineyard. I try to leave as little as possible.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
And now with Zooming... honestly, because I'm doing all my, all my business, all my work, all my, my meetings. Even when I'm pitching scripts, I'm doing it all on Zoom.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
And, uh, I don't have, I don't like leaving. We don't leave the property for days at a time. I mean it's terrible, but it's... when you come over, you'll see why. It's gorgeous, it's beautiful.
Doug Shafer:
No, no. I know the area. It's gorgeous. I don't blame you at all.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So you're busy, busy, busy. 'Cause you bought the land in '79, and you're-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
You're still cranking it out working, you know, your day job.
Robert Kamen:
Right. My day job, exactly.
Doug Shafer:
So did you start pla-, did you and Phil, did you and Phil start planting it right away? Did you wait a few years? You just-
Robert Kamen:
Right away.
Doug Shafer:
Right away.
Robert Kamen:
Well, it took, it took a year, it took a year to get the, uh... First of all, I bought 300 acres of land, and I didn't know it, but it had a provisional easement, it didn't have a permanent easement.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
And it took me a, a while to get a permanent easement, and then we had to build, um, almost two miles of road from the end of the county road... We're at the end of the end of this road, and then we had to build a road up here. Then after we built the road, then we brought in a drilling rig, and we drilled, uh, a way, a well. And then PG&E came in and put in two miles of poles. I'm the last electric pole before Napa in Sonoma.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Robert Kamen:
That's my claim to fame. But-
Doug Shafer:
Man-
Robert Kamen:
Um-
Doug Shafer:
This takes forever. This took years.
Robert Kamen:
Oh, it's fucking forever. It was ridiculous.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
A-and I just kept at it, because I, I wouldn't have... Doug, I don't know what I would have done without the screenwriting, 'cause the screenwriting provided all this dough.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
And all the money I got, I, I just kept putting into this place.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
And putting into this place.
Doug Shafer:
I'm with you. You're dumping the... So-
Robert Kamen:
With never thought of making wine.
Doug Shafer:
Was there a, was there a vision? I mean, you're dumping a ton of money-
Robert Kamen:
No.
Doug Shafer:
Into this thing. What, what was the endgame? What was the goal? Was there a dream?
Robert Kamen:
There was no goal.
Doug Shafer:
I love that.
Robert Kamen:
I, I suffer from-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
I suffer impulse control disorder. (laughter) That's it.
Doug Shafer:
You know, you know, I love it. You know, you gotta write a movie where there's not some, you know... You know, there's always a dream, there's always a goal. What if there's just... there is no dream, there is no goal. We're just, we're just going after it every day. (laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Yeah. It's, it... and that was honestly, that was truly true until, uh, we had a fire up here in 1996.
Doug Shafer:
I was gonna ask you about that.
Robert Kamen:
And it burned down... Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Because-
Robert Kamen:
It burned out, the Cavedale fire.
Doug Shafer:
Right, but before the fire, you made a, you wrote a movie. What was it, wa-, Walk in the Clouds, right?
Robert Kamen:
Walk in the Clouds, that's right. Right.
Doug Shafer:
And, so those of us who know that movie, a vineyard burns in it, right?
Robert Kamen:
I burned the vineyard down, because I needed, I needed a third act. I needed something big to happen, so... and I'm sitting up here writing it and I said, "I know. I'll burn the vineyard down."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
So I burn the vineyard down. Now, we shot it, and Dan Duckhorn had a Merlot vineyard, which is now Paraduxx. And we...
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right. It's, it's a half mile from me right here. It's right next door.
Robert Kamen:
Right. And we paid him a bunch of dough... he had phylloxera It was full of phylloxera.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
He was gonna pull it out. We put gas lines in. We torched the vines, and we pulled it out for him.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
And people... I go over to Napa, and people are saying, "Well, you know, vineyards don't burn." Well I'm farming for 16, for 16 years at that point. I know vineyards don't burn-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
But when my vineyard caught fire, what burned were the irrigation hoses. 'Cause the fire was so fast and so hot, it melted the irrigation hosing across the cambium layer of the vines. And it was August 1st. We were in full verasion of course. We were ripening, and as we were ripening, the vines are dying.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man. So-
Robert Kamen:
Same, at the same time.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. So what happened was... 'Cause you, you know, we've all said and, and to a certain extent, vineyards don't burn. However, you had this wildfire-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And the-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
The vines didn't catch fire, but the, the black rubber drip hose, to our listeners.
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Is, is hung right along the trunks of the vines. And so if that, that's on fire. That hot rubber was right next to the trunk of the vine and burned the trunk, which is the cambium layer, which is where all the nutrients come up the thing.
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And basically, so it was a slow death to the vines. Yeah?
Robert Kamen:
Right. As they were dying, the fruit was ripening.
Doug Shafer:
Oh... Oh...
Robert Kamen:
It was really sad.
Doug Shafer:
It's a heartbreaker.
Robert Kamen:
That's the thing that... so, so I went to PG&E, and I tried to get them to pay me. Now I'm selling my grapes at that point to Ferrari-Carano and Richard Arrowood.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
For $2300 a ton.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
Which at the time was good money. And, um, and they won't pay me that money. They say, "This is only worth $400 a ton. We'll give you $400 for two years of growth." I found this great lawyer, um, Rod Kerr and he sued them. And, and proved ... I mean, all these people from Napa came up to, to be the witnesses for the insurance company. And they all said, "This guy has an amazing vineyard. It was '96. I had a 16 year old organic vineyard 1500 feet above sea level.
Doug Shafer:
Perfect.
Robert Kamen:
And there weren't many of those around.
Doug Shafer:
No.
Robert Kamen:
Right?
Doug Shafer:
Not at all. Not then.
Robert Kamen:
No.
Doug Shafer:
Uh-uh. And was-
Robert Kamen:
So I have a friend... I have a friend. I have a very good friend, very famous. Jean-Georges Vongerichten.
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Robert Kamen:
Jean-Georges comes up to the vineyard, and he says, "Well this is a great vineyard, you must make wine." And I said, "I'm a screenwriter. I'm, you know, growing grapes. I like having a vineyard." He told me he would sell my wine in his restaurants if I made wine. So I made 500 cases of wine.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
He had three restaurants. He took 50 cases of wine. I said, "You said you'd sell the wine." He said, "Why'd you make so much?"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
He said, "I have three French restaurants. This is California cabernet."
Doug Shafer:
Well-
Robert Kamen:
And I was in, and that's how I got in the wine business. And Elizabeth Pressler-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Robert Kamen:
You know Elizabeth, right?
Doug Shafer:
I do. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Kamen:
Elizabeth was doing marketing. She helped me kind of get my, jumpstart my business by sending me around the country, uh, selling wine. I mean, I was Willy Loman with a wine bag. I didn't know what I was doing. And she said, "You gotta introduce yourself to the world." And so, here I am (laughter) writing screenplays full time, running around the country to every small... anybody who would talk to me. I didn't know what the hell I was doing. And that's how I got in the wine business.
Doug Shafer:
And did you... okay, 'cause I was gonna ask you about that. Because you were a grower for years and years and years, beautiful vineyard.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Being a grower is great.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know, once the grapes are picked, you can kinda relax a little bit. You don't, you don't have to get on the plane. You don't have to call in accounts.
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And all of a sudden-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause of your buddy, your chef buddy who wouldn't buy all the wine, talk to... You know, why didn't anybody try to talk you out of it? 'Cause it's, it's a tough gig. You know that. We all do.
Robert Kamen:
Doug, I didn't know it until I started doing it. (laughter)
Doug Shafer:
Oh, no... Oh. You know, I, I've... it reminds me of a story. I had a great grower, a neighbor, and, um, great vineyard. We bought his grapes, and he actually really wanted to start making his own wine. I said... you know, I was serious about it. I said... He says, "Can you tell me about it?" I said, "Happy to. Let's have a cup of coffee, spend an hour."
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
"I'll tell you, I'll tell you everything I know about the business, but I'm gonna warn you." He said, "What?" I said, "When we're done talking, you're probably not gonna do this." He said, "No, no. It's gonna be good."
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And we talked for an hour-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And he looked at me, and he said, "Oh my goodness, I had no idea." I said-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
I like you. You're a good guy. I'm gonna give it to you straight, because this is what's ahead of you." And he, he never made wine. (laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Right. Right. Do you want to drive from Cleveland to Cincinnati in January through a snow storm, stopping off at every small town and city in between to try to convince them to take your California cabernet? No. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
And when it's me and six other guys right behind you, coming in the door with another cabernet.
Robert Kamen:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Yeah. Well I did this for nine, I did it for nine years. It was a great education. It really killed me, because I'm writing full time.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
You know, I'm running around selling wine in the day, and then I come back to a hotel room in Dayton, Ohio, and I'm writing screenplays til 2:00 in the morning.
Doug Shafer:
Oh. And-
Robert Kamen:
I'm doing this, I'm doing this.
Doug Shafer:
And do you have family then too? Were you married, kids?
Robert Kamen:
Yeah. I had, I had, um... what did I have at that time? I had one, two, I had three ki-, I had three kids. I still have three kids, but they're older. And I had a family, and they were parked in New York. And I was, between the screenwriting and the wine selling, I was not home a lot. I was running around. I'd go from, you know, through the Mid-Atlantic states, and then go to Florida, and then go here, and then do that.
Robert Kamen:
And I'm doing this, and I, I got burned out on it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
And that's when we transitioned to direct to consumer.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, good.
Robert Kamen:
'Cause I couldn't do it anymore. I just couldn't do it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. It's tough. It's tough. We need help.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know, and then you got to amp up and make more wine to, you know, pay people to help you out. So, so when did you make the move to-
Robert Kamen:
Yeah, well when I-
Doug Shafer:
De-... So you're basically 100% direct to consumer?
Robert Kamen:
Uh, no. We're... No, because I do believe in the market.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
I believe it's free advertising, if your wine is on a list somewhere.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Kamen:
I do believe that. So we're 80% direct.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
I'm just talking revenues. We're 80% direct to consumer, 20% in, in the market. Now we used to be the other way around, and I was losing a ton of money. But you know this.
Doug Shafer:
Yes, yes.
Robert Kamen:
You know how this works.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
It took me a while, it took me a while to figure it out. And the thing that saved me was that I always had a great passion for the land. I was always... to me this was not a commodity to be sold to anybody. When I hooked up with Eli-, Elizabeth Pressler, the first thing she said... She said, "What do you want to do? Do you want to build this to sell it?" I said, "Sell it? This is like my life."
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
"This land is my life. I-I-I'm so connected to this property. I'm not selling this. What are you, insane? I just want to make it pay for itself. If I just break even, I'll be so happy." And that took a while... that took quite a while, as you know. Listen, it took quite a while.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughs)
Robert Kamen:
And now we're-
Doug Shafer:
I do know.
Robert Kamen:
Now we're in a good place.
Doug Shafer:
That's good, so-
Robert Kamen:
Except Coronavirus is killing us, but-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I know. It's, it's hurting everybody. So your original planting before the fire, was it all cabernet? All 40 acres?
Robert Kamen:
Well... I, in 1980... 5, I was in Tuscany, and I had my first bottle of Solaia, and I called Phillip and said, "We have to plant Sangiovese. I want to make a super Tuscan."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
And so of course, he tried to talk me out of it, and I insisted. So we planted Sangiovese. And, uh, we made a super Tuscan. And, uh... (laughs) And I was so sorry I did it, because we can't sell it. Why would I want to have a California Sangiovese on my table for the same price I can have a great Brunello?
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right. Uh-
Robert Kamen:
Right?
Doug Shafer:
I've got a similar experience. Dad went to Tuscany in '88.
Robert Kamen:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Felt... you don't know this story. Fell in love with Sangiovese, came back... I-I've, some people have heard this before, so I'm repeating it, but you need to hear it. Walks in the lab, goes to Elias and me, and goes, "I've got our next wine, guys. It's, it's Sangiovese."
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And I said, I swear to goodness, I said, "Sange- what?" This is 1988.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And he goes, he goes, "Doug, Chianti." I looked at Elias, and I go, "Chianti, straw basket, right?"
Robert Kamen:
Right. Right, right.
Doug Shafer:
And Dad looks at Elias and goes, "Jesus Christ. I paid this kid, I paid for his education in wine (laughs) at UC Davis, and he doesn't know what Sangiovese is." So anyway, we did it. We made it. We did it for 10 years. It was a Cabernet-Sangiovese blend, and we were pretty successful, and I'm convinced the reason it was fairly successful was we didn't call it Sangiovese. We called it Firebreak, because it was named after-
Robert Kamen:
There you go, Firebreak. I remember it. Right.
Doug Shafer:
It was named after this vineyard around his house that was a vineyard... here's an example. There was a wildfire in '81, burned this hill around his house. The house didn't burn, or it tried, and um... Oh, pardon me, it wasn't planted. We set back fire, saved the house. Next day, my mom realized that vineyards don't burn, so she said to my dad, "Plant this hill and plant it now." He was ecstatic about it, so we planted Sangiovese and it was a natural fire break for their house.
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
So we called the vineyard Firebreak.
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Called the wine Firebreak. Did it for 10 years. Loved it, and, um, realized we weren't, couldn't, you know, change the world, and switched over to cabernet and Syrah, which does better in our spot than Sangiovese. So we, we threw in the towel.
Robert Kamen:
Welcome to my life.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. We got a similar, similar story there.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah. Did the same thing. And now I have some, I have a couple of the bottles of Sangiovese left from '01 that we made, and I have a couple of mags left. Every time I open one, I say, "This is great. This is great wine." And it is great wine. You can't... it's sales proof wine. (laughs) It's so hard to sell.
Doug Shafer:
What I've noticed with the... 'Cause we still have some bottles around, when we pop them. It's like, "Wow, this tastes like-"
Robert Kamen:
They're great.
Doug Shafer:
"This tastes like an old san-... this tastes like a 10 or 15 year old Sangiovese-"
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
From Tuscany.
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
It's like the grape, kind of finds.
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
The, the varietals, finds its same place where they just... it's really interesting to me.
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
But yeah, tough to-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
If you can't sell it, you can't make it. You know what I mean? It's like... (laughs) It's just got to do it.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, so when you replanted, after the fire, you planted... you said where you got Cabernet, you got Syrah? What else do you guys make?
Robert Kamen:
I have, um, three acres of Syrah. I have, um, 40 acres of Cabernet. I have three, two acres of, um, Sauvignon Blanc.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
I have, um... I have a half acre of Cab Franc. We make this, a really good Cab Franc. No green bean flavors.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Robert Kamen:
Um, and which... and all this stuff sells through the tasting room. I mean, the cab franc never sees the light of day. The Syrah sells through the tasting room. And we have... I put a small quarter acre of Viognier in, so we can have the skins to co-ferment with the, um, with the Syrah.
Doug Shafer:
With the Syrah. Okay. There you go.
Robert Kamen:
And... yeah. And, and we bottle the Viognier juice, one barrel of it, 23 cases. Same people buy it every year.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
It comes in, it goes out. And that's it. But the, the work horse is the cab.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
And it's 100% cab. Uh, we have... oh, I don't know, seven or eight different clones out there by now. You know, different mixtures of rootstock depending on where we plant it. Very rocky soils. Very poor soils. It's all, um... um... and what, nothing. You know, I've had a vineyard for 40 years. Here I am.
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Robert Kamen:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Nice. And you still, are you still writing full time also, or you've slowed down a little on that?
Robert Kamen:
I've never been busier. It's insane.
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Robert Kamen:
It's completely crazy. Um, I did a film that i had out last year called Angel Has Fallen.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
Um, it was a third part as the Has Fallen series. I'm now doing the fourth installment of that and two other films, two other scripts I'm writing. And I'm pitching a TV series on the Mississippi Delta in two weeks to a bunch of streamers.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Robert Kamen:
Well I'm like, I'm cranking all over the place.
Doug Shafer:
You're cranking. Did I see something about judgment, judg-, a judgment of Paris movie? Was that, were you involved in that?
Robert Kamen:
Um, yeah. Well... yeah. I'm not gonna talk badly about (laughter) people who, um, who live in the Napa Valley and have vineyards that they subsequently sold. Who, uh, made their name in that tasting, but let's say, uh...
Doug Shafer:
Say no more. (laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Cer-... yeah. Certain people made it impossible to make the movie.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's too bad. That's too bad.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause that'd be good for, that'd be good for our business, you know? All of us.
Robert Kamen:
It'd have been, it would have been great.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
I, I wrote the movie... and then the sad part is that, uh, I wrote it about the wrong guy. I should have written it about Mike Grigch who was dying to, he said he would pay me to rewrite the script-
Doug Shafer:
Interesting.
Robert Kamen:
To tell his story. And, and he has a great story. I mean the way he came here.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
It's fantastic.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. His st-
Robert Kamen:
Um, but I kind of lost after I went through this insane dance... with the unnamed person. I, I lost interest. And, uh, and it just went away.
Doug Shafer:
Understood.
Robert Kamen:
You know?
Doug Shafer:
Life's too short.
Robert Kamen:
Life's too short to fight, Doug.
Doug Shafer:
No, it is. I'm with you on that one. Let's all work together, and you know, be normal. And if not, forget about it. We're moving down the road.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, but Ka-Karate Kid into a musical? Is that what I heard?
Robert Kamen:
Oh, oh, yeah. Where'd you hear that?
Doug Shafer:
Oh, I've got a research team here. I've got 15 people.
Robert Kamen:
Oh, yeah, right. (laughter) Yeah. Well we were, we were on the fast track. Uh, we were supposed to ... we were supposed to be in casting by August.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Kamen:
And, um, in previews by February at the, um, La Jolla Play House and then figure out how to get it on Broadway.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
But Broadway is now shut.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
The whole business is shut down, and so it's kind of on hold. It's gonna happen. Uh, it's just, it's probably gonna take a year to get it done. That would have been on the super fast track, but now it's, it's simmering. But it's good. We have everything. We have the... we have a great director. We have a great book. We have great songs.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Robert Kamen:
You know, everything is great, great, great, great, great, except, uh, Broadway sucks right now. It's all shut down.
Doug Shafer:
Well, yeah. We're just all, everything's on hold. I mean I'm, I'm optimistic that we'll get back.
Robert Kamen:
Me too.
Doug Shafer:
We'll get back. But it's gonna be a while, so we gotta hang in there.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know, you know, people, they're showing up a little... I don't know what it's like over there, but people are showing up a little bit at a time. People are starting to travel. I'm a little nervous about contracting the virus, honestly.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Kamen:
I-I was in New York working on the musical in January, the end of January I left. A week later, the five people I was with, our choreographers, our lyricist, our production designer... everybody came down with it.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.
Robert Kamen:
Really sick. Nobody died. Nobody died.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
And I dodged a bullet. And I got scared, honestly. So I just said, "Well, I have the perfect place to not go anywhere, so I'm here."
Doug Shafer:
You're there.
Robert Kamen:
I have, I haven't left. Yeah, but we're going to a restaurant for the first time in four months, um, on Thursday with Frank Gossler from Outpost and Mending Wall.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
And we're gonna eat outside. And I'm still nervous.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
I'm still anxious, a little anxious.
Doug Shafer:
We, we've dipped our toe in a little bit, but we're, uh, it's, uh-
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Being real careful. Tell me about-
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Sorry, did you ever actually make the wine, or did you always have a wine maker? Or who's making the wines now?
Robert Kamen:
Who, me? No, no. Uh, I'm, I like to say I'm a head cheerleader and check writer.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Mark Herold has made my wines since 2002.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
And, uh, and he subsequently, he also married my director of marketing and sales, who's now my general manager, Gianna Farrina.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
Uh, who turned this whole thing around to make it a profitable operation. He married her, or she married him, I should say. Because her ni-, our nickname for her is the generalisssimo.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. (laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Um, she's very organized. Um, Mark makes the wine, Phil grows the grapes. You know, I just sit here and just watch everything go around. If I have an opinion, people listen, talk me out of things. You know- I'm a great believer in if you find real talent, you go with the real talent.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
So...
Doug Shafer:
Take care of them. And, uh-
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You've probably been asked this a million times. You know, screenwriting, wine making. Similarities, differences... are there parallels? Is it just kind of like-
Robert Kamen:
Su-super similar, because-
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Robert Kamen:
Not so much screenwriting, but wine making and movie making are collaborative experiences. And you start with a blueprint, you start with... In movie making, you start with the screenplay.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
In wine, in winemaking or wine growing, you start with your basic, well, dirt. You start with your land.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Kamen:
You build up the land, you get your raw materials. With the screenplay, you finish your screenplay, you find actors, directors, production designers. With making wine, you find a winemaker, you find somebody to sell it, you find somebody to, uh, do your agriculture correctly. And so it's a collaborative experience. It's not dissimilar. Um-
Doug Shafer:
Hm.
Robert Kamen:
Except the one variable is the weather. In, in movie making, it's crazy egos. In, uh, wine growing, it's the weather. You can't control egos and you can't control the weather. So...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
So they're really... (laughs) they're really quite, they're quite, uh, quite similar. And I love... We only make wine off our estate.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
I don't have, I don't own vineyards in other places. I don't have a huge wine business. It's, um, basically we make 3500 cases a year.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
4000 in a really good year.
Doug Shafer:
Great size.
Robert Kamen:
And, um... yeah, it's perfect and perfect for what we do. And I've found that perfect niche market. We opened a tasting room in town on the square. We have people who come up and visit the vineyard and hang around on a, a sky deck that we built. And, and I have no desire to expand.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
To me, Doug, it's almost a religious thing about this one piece of property. You have the same thing with your vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
We do.
Robert Kamen:
Your dad came-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
You know, what did he know about farming?
Doug Shafer:
No, nothing.
Robert Kamen:
Nothing.
Doug Shafer:
Nothing. (laughter) Nothing.
Robert Kamen:
But he felt this, he felt this affinity for this piece of property that happened to be a great place to grow cabernet.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And who, and who knew? Nobody knew. He didn't know.
Robert Kamen:
Nobody knew.
Doug Shafer:
No one knew.
Robert Kamen:
You know.
Doug Shafer:
It had hillside potential-
Robert Kamen:
You know, you know, now you know.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, but you know, Robert-
Robert Kamen:
But he didn't know.
Doug Shafer:
It took me, it took me, it took me probably 10, 12 years of making the cabernet off this ranch to finally realize-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
How special my place is.
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
I mean, it, and it would happen-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
In the middle of the night during one harvest when, when a red fermentor just went from just being kind of wine, or just kind of being juice/wine to like, oh my god, this is so good.
Robert Kamen:
Magic. Magic.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, it's magical.
Robert Kamen:
Right?
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I've tried to describe it to-
Robert Kamen:
We've all, you know-
Doug Shafer:
People, and you can't do it. It's just something happens.
Robert Kamen:
No. Because wine is mystery.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Kamen:
Wine is magic and mystery no matter what we do. These people, you can fuck around with it, you can... am I not supposed to say that on the podcast?
Doug Shafer:
Oh, you can do anything you want. (laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Um... oh, good.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
You can fuck around with it, you can... I always say, you know, wine is grown, it's not made. You can do whatever you want. You can make, you can make bad wine out of good grapes. You can't make good wine out of bad grapes. You can not do it.
Doug Shafer:
Nope.
Robert Kamen:
You can't do it. And that's all there is to it, and I, I am... I stumbled upon a piece of property like your father did.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
I stumbled on a piece of property that happens to facilitate the growing of great cabernet, or great grapes, if you pay attention to the farming. If you pay attention to it, it produces something that becomes magical. And like you said, this fermentor... like, what did you do? I don't know, can I do that again? It just happened. It's a mystery.
Doug Shafer:
It just happens. And that's-
Robert Kamen:
It's a crazy mystery.
Doug Shafer:
Well, it's, it's, it's the magic. And, um...
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know... all... it's that one slice of magic that kind of makes all the other stuff worth it. All that other day to day, day to day, whatever it is. You know, all the stuff we all do.
Robert Kamen:
When you... yeah. When you, when you, you open that bottle, or when you pull the lid off the fermentor. Or when you're, when you're, you know... doing racking, and all of a sudden this aroma comes out where, how did that happen? It, it's... for some people, yeah. Listen, theBbible doesn't talk about bourbon or beer. It talks about water and wine. (laughter) And there's a reason. (laughs) You know?
Doug Shafer:
I have to say amen to that. Um, no it's true. And you know, it, it's funny, 'cause, uh, I've got a kid home, you know, bless his heart, from you know, middle of college, and he's stuck at home. But, uh... no, but we try and do anything we can just to, you know, mix it up a little bit. So you know, "Dad, Dad, what we drinking tonight?" I said, "You know, go pick out a bottle. You know, just go for it."
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And he goes, "What's this? I don't even know." I say, I look at it. I said, "I don't know what that is either. You know, someone probably gave it to me." I have no idea. It's from Italy, or France, or...
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
You know, Napa, Sonoma, who knows. So I don't even know the label. It's cab, it's syrah, whatever. You know, we pull the cork, and we pour a glass, and we're getting dinner ready. All of a sudden one of us will... this has happened a couple of times. Or we both kind of stop at the same time, and he looks at me, I look at him. I go... 'Cause we just smelled it, and I go, "Wow." He goes, "Wow." Then we taste and go...
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And there's just like this, this, just two or three seconds of him and I looking at each other going, "Hey, this is really cool. Like, what is this?" And it's, it's... and it's just a moment, and then we're on, often talking about this or that, or watching TV or whatever. But, those are those moments ... I like it.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Um, how can people find-
Robert Kamen:
I hope so.
Doug Shafer:
Find your wines, how can they order them? How can they visit your place? Give me some, give me some info for everyone to know.
Robert Kamen:
Um... you can go online.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
KamenWines.com. Uh, you can come to our tasting room-
Doug Shafer:
Which is in-
Robert Kamen:
In Sonoma.
Doug Shafer:
Sonoma, it's open right now.
Robert Kamen:
Right on the... yeah, right on the town of, town square. You have to make appointments. It used to be just, walk on in.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
Right?
Doug Shafer:
Right. Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
It used to be walk on in, but, um, because of this, it's you have to make an appointment, and we have a whole protocol. And you know, masks and-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
You know this. You know, it's a whole thing. We're just trying to be super careful, and we're small. You know, we don't have... it's not a fancy thing. It's kind of like, all about the wine and, uh, I got a bunch of quotes from my movies hanging up on the wall. And if you guess all five, you get a free tasting.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
But nobody will ever guess the fifth one, 'cause I ain't stupid. (laughter) I put one in nobody would ever guess. Um...
Doug Shafer:
Well, I'll talk to my son. He'll help me out on that one.
Robert Kamen:
But, uh... Yeah, exactly. (laughter) And that's how you find the wine. It's... we're not in a ton of places. I, I've tried to pull back, because I don't make that much wine. So I can sell as much as I can produce. We try to pull back from having to show it all over the place, and that's worked pretty good for us.
Doug Shafer:
Well, the wines are delicious, and I, I encourage people to go online-
Robert Kamen:
Thank you, Doug.
Doug Shafer:
Go online and, and get some of them. And I'm gonna come, uh, taste in person with, with Steven when I get him up here next time. So I'll let you know-
Robert Kamen:
Well when you do, please come over. We'll, you know, we'll give you the cooks tour. It'll be... take you to see some of the more interesting sights of the vineyard, and we'll sit and we'll drink wines... or if you don't want to drink my wine, we can go to my cellar, and I have a whole bunch of really cool old Barolos, Riojas, Barbarescos... All sorts of stuff that's interesting.
Doug Shafer:
No, I want to drink your wine. (laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Okay, good. Fine.
Doug Shafer:
All right, man. So, Robert, thanks so much for taking the time. Really appreciate it. We're all busy, and, uh-
Robert Kamen:
Doug, this was great.
Doug Shafer:
Great talking to you.
Robert Kamen:
I appreciated very much you thinking of me. I really, uh, I really do appreciate it. And if I don't catch you buying my wine, I'll catch you buying a movie ticket.
Doug Shafer:
All right, my friend.
Robert Kamen:
One way or another, one way or another you're supporting the bottom line.
Doug Shafer:
There you go. Best of luck to you.
Robert Kamen:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
And we'll, we'll talk to you soon. Take care.
Robert Kamen:
Thanks so much.
Doug Shafer:
See you.
Robert Kamen:
Bye.
Doug Shafer:
Bye bye.
Robert Kamen:
Bye.