Ray Isle

71 minutes

Ray Isle grew up in Houston, Texas, thinking he’d be in a band or write novels. Along the way he fell in love with the world of wine and found a way to turn that enthusiasm and excitement into a career working as an editor in wine magazines, such as Food & Wine, where he is executive wine editor, and on television, in countless appearances on NBC’s The Today Show. Enjoy! For more visit: foodandwine.com


Full Transcript

Doug Shafer:
Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Taste. Doug Shafer with another episode. Really excited today I've got a long-term friend of mine who, uh, we've known each other a long time, but have not spent enough time together. In fact, I was thinking about it this morning, I don't know a lot of this guy's story. He's a food, wine lover. Our paths have cross forever. He's currently the executive wine editor of Food and Wine magazine and Travel and Leisure. I, I've see him in New York. I see him in Aspen. I see him in Napa. Mr. Ray Isle. Welcome Ray.

Ray Isle:
Doug, thanks for having me. This is great.

Doug Shafer:
I also was thinking this morning, I was trying to remember, we've known each other 20, 25, 30 years. When-

Ray Isle:
I-

Doug Shafer:
... did we first meet?

Ray Isle:
I think, I think we met, it's a little vague, but I'm, I'm pretty sure we met when before I was writing full time when I was, when I was freelancing as a journalist and working as a supplier rep for Dow's and Graham's ports.

Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).

Ray Isle:
And I think we met at a, either a wine or a lobber, um, sales event-

Doug Shafer:
Oh-

Ray Isle:
... 'cause you were with-

Doug Shafer:
I was with Winebow.

Ray Isle:
... you were with Winebow, yeah.

Doug Shafer:
In New York.

Ray Isle:
In like '90, somewhere between '98 and 2000. So probably at the Winebow harvest, you know, fair.

Doug Shafer:
At the harvest tasting thing.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Funny.

Ray Isle:
And that's, that's a while back now. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
But then I know we definitely hooked up when you were working with Josh Green-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... at Wine and Spirits.

Ray Isle:
So I left, I, I worked for a couple of years, um, doing, being a wholesale supplier rep-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... selling port, which trying to haul- haul a bag of, and a bag of port around New York in August and walking to stores-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
... (laughs), and saying "You want some port?" And the guys that look at you like, "What are you, you lunatic? Go away."

Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).

Ray Isle:
It taught me a lot about sales. But then I, I left that job too because Josh Green had read something I'd written and he hired me full time as an editor at Wine and Spirits magazine. And I-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... was there for five years at- at, um-

Doug Shafer:
Great.

Ray Isle:
... and it was great, it was a great place to work.

Doug Shafer:
Super. Well let's start. I gotta start all the way back. So-

Ray Isle:
Okay.

Doug Shafer:
... born, born and raised?

Ray Isle:
I was born and raised. It's true. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
I was, I was born and raised in Houston, Texas. Um, my, my dad was a professor, um, at Rice University. And I grew up in Houston, uh, not in a wine drinking family. There was, there was certainly beer around. I remember that my, my father was really thrilled the first time that Coors was available East of the Rockies.

Doug Shafer:
Mine was too.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
We used to, Chi- sorry, I'm jumping in, Chicago-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... 'cause he, he'd take us out to Colorado to ski.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
He was, he was just ski bum, so he'd- he'd drag us out to Colorado. And lot of times we went with him and a couple of the dads and just the kids, they'd always bring an extra suitcase and they fill it with-

Ray Isle:
And fill it with-

Doug Shafer:
... Coors beer and bring it back. And he kept it in the basement. It was just like gold.

Ray Isle:
Yeah. The same-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
... damn near the same thing. My dad, he didn't, 'cause he was a teacher he had summers off, we'd go camping in Colorado.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
And he'd literally load up the back of the car with cases of Coors and we'd come back. And then suddenly it was available and it was, it was, then there was, I mean it's hard to imagine now, but there was this kind of murmur of it's going to be available, you know, in Texas-

Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.

Ray Isle:
... at some point soon. And uh-

Doug Shafer:
Well same thing in Chicago. Well this is, well here's, you know, we were talking before we came in about business and, uh-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... Think about that, 'cause I remember Coors was like, you know, you can't get it. It's, it's-

Ray Isle:
It was this-

Doug Shafer:
... gold. It's, it's, it's-

Ray Isle:
It was a regional specialty of all things.

Doug Shafer:
... So this, this image and the desire for it-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... and the minute you expand it and go nationwide, all of a sudden it's readily available-

Ray Isle:
And then-

Doug Shafer:
... the, the thrill-

Ray Isle:
... then it's kinda like, it's yet another-

Doug Shafer:
... the thrill is gone.

Ray Isle:
... yeah, it's yet another, you know, yet another can of beer. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
But it, it's, it's, it's funny that- that sort of, you know, the romance of scarcity is a really interesting, and this applies a lot to wine obviously too.

Doug Shafer:
It does, it does.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Maybe I should shut down five or six states and make it a little tougher to get.

Ray Isle:
There you go.

Doug Shafer:
There you go.

Ray Isle:
That's an idea. Just, just cut people off now and then to make them-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
... make them, make them hungry-

Doug Shafer:
I'll run that by my-

Ray Isle:
... or thirsty.

Doug Shafer:
... my sales team and see what they say, they're not gonna like that. Um, brothers and sisters?

Ray Isle:
I have one brother.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
Um, none of us are in Texas anymore. My brother is outside Philadelphia. He's a musician and, and runs a, uh, a bicycle shop too as well.

Doug Shafer:
Cool.

Ray Isle:
Um, so different path than me. And I live in, I live in New York City, which is where Food and Wine is-

Doug Shafer:
Got it. Right.

Ray Isle:
... is based, part of Food and Wine based, part of us, weirdly part of the magazine is down in the Birmingham, Alabama and part of it's in New York.

Doug Shafer:
Interesting. Wow. That's a, that's a-

Ray Isle:
Yeah. Well the short version of that is 20 thousand square feet of test kitchens.

Doug Shafer:
Aw.

Ray Isle:
The rent, the retail cost of 20 thousand square feet of test kitchens in Birmingham, I, 100 bucks a month or whatever it is.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
(laughs). And then in New York it's, you know, really, really expensive.

Doug Shafer:
Hundreds and thousands. Yeah.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
So.

Doug Shafer:
So, and your mom when you were kid?

Ray Isle:
So my mom, um, my mom was a pro-, she taught ice skating. She was a professional.

Doug Shafer:
She taught ice skating in Houston, Texas?

Ray Isle:
Ice skating in Houston Texas, yeah. She, she had been a competitive ice skater, um, in up at Connecticut where she was from. Went to Stanford met my dad there, they got married, he got a teaching job in Houston, she came down. I think first few years, she occupied herself raising me and my brother.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
Eventually she was like I gotta get away from these two.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
And, and started, you know, sort of part time and then, and then, you know, fairly full time freelance teaching ice skating, which in Houston was a very weird thing to do.

Doug Shafer:
That's pretty wi- so I gotta ask you did you skate?

Ray Isle:
I skated, I did.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
I even played hockey briefly.

Doug Shafer:
But was it, so you were more hockey than triple axles.

Ray Isle:
Yeah, my brother went more towards the, the jumps and spins and I went more towards the, the whacking a puck around with a stick.

Doug Shafer:
Hockey in Houston. I just love it.

Ray Isle:
It was, it was, yeah, the Houston Aeros. They, the team launched when I was there and they had got, they got somehow got like Gordie Howe from, you know, Canada-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... to come down and play for the Houston Aeros.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, I didn't know that.

Ray Isle:
I mean that sort of twilight of his career, I think. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I remember growing up in Chicago Gordie Howe was the big-

Ray Isle:
Yep.

Doug Shafer:
... cause I was a Blackhawks fan and all that.

Ray Isle:
Yeah, he's a big deal. I don't think the Aeros lasted very long-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
... because Houston- Houston's not a talk, hockey town. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
Um, so wine wasn't a big part-

Ray Isle:
No.

Doug Shafer:
... of the home scene but what about food?

Ray Isle:
Food was, I mean my mom was a pretty good cook. It wasn't, you know, this is the '70s and-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... and it wasn't the restaurant and chef world wasn't like it is now-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... with sort of star chefs-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... and they weren't, you know, the, I think the only TV shows was Julia Child and The Galloping Gourmet.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
Um, but she did cook and, and liked food and we ate, we ate good food.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
My dad, when she started teaching of course, then my dad cooked sometimes. Basically it was a series of hamburgers or chili, canned chili, or hamburgers or canned chili-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
...or hamburgers and canned chili.

Doug Shafer:
I know that drill.

Ray Isle:
(laughs). Yeah, so. But, um, I don't know. I, I got, we had a neighbor, I had good friends who lived down the street and, and my friend's mom was a quite good cook and I remember hanging out in the kitchen with her and, and, and just kind of helping out occasionally. And there was something about it that got me into food as an, as an idea. I, I had zero clue that I was ever going to end up-

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Ray Isle:
... in this world, uh-

Doug Shafer:
But there was something.

Ray Isle:
... Yeah there was something. And, and it's, you know, that, that, that early sense of, of flavor and that, some stuff actually really does taste way better than other stuff. Um, I think probably was, I probably got that pretty early on.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
Um, you know.

Doug Shafer:
Well again that's I, I'm, I was kind of curious. I was wondering if there was something. So there was something.

Ray Isle:
Yeah. There was something.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
And then it, and then it took a while. You know, I went to college as, as one does, and then I went on to grad school and I was, I was headed down the same path as my dad, I was headed towards being an academic. Um, I got-

Doug Shafer:
Uh, back, I'm going to back up.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
High school, how well was high school in Houston?

Ray Isle:
High school in Houston, college in Houston.

Doug Shafer:
Sports, Sports activities? Nothing?

Ray Isle:
No, I was not a sports guy.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
I- I ran occasionally-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... but you know, um, I, I was, uh, I was a music head. I mean, I'd spent-

Doug Shafer:
Got it.

Ray Isle:
... a lot of time listening to music, um, loudly in my room.

Doug Shafer:
I gotta to ask you, you know, growing up in Texas, because you know, I've known you for a long time, where I first met ya I would never have guessed that you came from Texas because, you know, there's that stereotypical Texas thing.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
I mean, what was that like? You were like living in that or was it...

Ray Isle:
Well, I was, I was-

Doug Shafer:
... Houston was different?

Ray Isle:
... sort of tangential to it 'cause my, 'cause, 'cause my dad was a college professor. I mean it's not like we were out on the farm with the cows-

Doug Shafer:
Right. (laughs).

Ray Isle:
... you know. Though he did later in life actually buy a farm out- outside Houston in Schulenburg. He sort of, he sort of morphed into a Texan.

Doug Shafer:
Got it.

Ray Isle:
I mean he grew up in Eastern Washington, which was a fairly-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... country area.

Doug Shafer:
Country and farm land.

Ray Isle:
My mom grew up in New Haven, um, in a university town, you know, um-

Doug Shafer:
Got it.

Ray Isle:
... I, I think part of it is that, you know, like when I, when I left Texas after college, I mean I still had a, I had a Texas accent I said y'all and all this kind of thing. Um, I'd been gone for a while.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
It's kind of, it's kinda been trimmed out. If I go back there, my, my accent starts to change a little bit. The more I stay it- it- it sort of heads towards a little bit more Texas accent. And it's, you know, it's, it's funny, it, um, it's a great place to grow up and it's, and it's a state with a ton of character-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... and has a lot of personality and I'm, I'm quite happy to come from there. I don't always agree with-

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Ray Isle:
... some aspects of my home state, (laughs) but it, I probably retain some inner Texan-ness.

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Ray Isle:
You know I still, I still own some cowboy boots, you know? It's (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Well-

Ray Isle:
You know they hand them to you at birth if you're in Texas.

Doug Shafer:
... everybody, everybody's got cowboy boots. You gotta have cowboy boots.

Ray Isle:
Yeah. Yeah, so. Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
But so, so you stayed, you went to Rice where your dad was teaching.

Ray Isle:
Went to Rice, yeah. Was an English major, did a lot of theater, went off to grad school. Well, no, I should rephrase that. I went off to Austin to be in a really crappy band for a year and a half.

Doug Shafer:
Well you mentioned music I was going to ask you about this.

Ray Isle:
Yeah. So-

Doug Shafer:
You were in, you were in a crappy band.

Ray Isle:
I was in a crappy band.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, come on.

Ray Isle:
Yeah, I was in, I was a DJ at, in college and in a band or two all bad.

Doug Shafer:
Well-

Ray Isle:
Um, I mean loud-

Doug Shafer:
Loud.

Ray Isle:
... and fun. I mean I mean it was a blast.

Doug Shafer:
What cha, what cha, what cha play? What - ?

Ray Isle:
I was rhythm guitar and lead singer or lead shouter as the case may be.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
I mean this is sort of the punk era too. So, you know, it was a, it was a, um, you know, I think everybody should be in a band at some point. It's a, it's a blast.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
But I, one, one thing I learned, so we moved to, we sort of on the band en masse, moved to Austin to be a band.

Doug Shafer:
And this was after college?

Ray Isle:
This is after college. Did that for about two years. Sort of realized we weren't that good. And one thing you realize is that like the, all the, all the stuff you hear about band problems like the, you know, the drummer's a psychopath and the guitarist-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
... like wants to play louder than everybody else and you know, then the bassist is sleeping with a drummer's girlfriend and all that, is that happens in famous bands and it happens just the same in really awful like post-college bands.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
And so you have dysfunction and you're playing kind of crappy clubs. And I was working, I mean I was working actually at the Sheraton 800 number to pay the rent and then like doing music stuff at night.

Doug Shafer:
I love, really, the Sheraton 800 number?

Ray Isle:
(laughs). Yeah, yeah.

Doug Shafer:
I love it.

Ray Isle:
Sheraton reservations this is Ray can I help you?

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
(laughs).

Doug Shafer:
Oh wow, wow.

Ray Isle:
So you know, cause that's-

Doug Shafer:
I probably, I probably talked to you.

Ray Isle:
... that and there were a lot of music people in Austin that time who worked the Sheraton call center 'cause it was-

Doug Shafer:
Well so what, what years was, what years were you in Austin?

Ray Isle:
This would've been late eighties this is, this is like '80, '88, '89.

Doug Shafer:
Okay well I'm, I'm traveling late eighties, I'm traveling to Austin to sell wine.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Because back then for us it was tougher for us in the big cities. We weren't that well known-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... and we ended up selling wine in secondary markets.

Ray Isle:
Yep.

Doug Shafer:
The majority of our wines. Columbus, Ohio, I mean I used to go there all the time. Austin, Texas, you know, Chicago, New York, we couldn't break into-

Ray Isle:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... you know, in a big way. But I remember going to Austin late eighties. It was, I just loved that town.

Ray Isle:
It, It was a fantastic place to hang out.

Doug Shafer:
It was so cool.

Ray Isle:
Yeah. And it, if you, um, you know, it, it, it was, you know, there's, there's this longterm Austin thing about, you know, keep Austin weird.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
It really was weird at that point.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughs).

Ray Isle:
They were, you know, it was, it's gotten fancier over time-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... and it was still pretty scruffy and kind of, you know, there was a fantastic music scene.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
Um, there was a lot of really good Tex Mex food.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
I mean, I- I wasn't, certainly wasn't going to high end places at that point.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
And it was a blast. But I about, you know, about a year into it, I was like, well, I, if I, I could do this for a long time and I will be in Austin in 20 years in a bad band-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
... you know, working in an 800 number call center and maybe this is not the- the future. So I, I applied to grad schools and literature and-

Doug Shafer:
Oh, great.

Ray Isle:
... and I ended up going off to Boston University-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... on a creative writing fellowship and I picked Boston because it was as far in the continental U.S. in terms of for like, uh, culture and distance as I could go from Texas.

Doug Shafer:
Well I was, I was aware that you went to Boston.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
So you got your master's in Boston?

Ray Isle:
Got my master's in Boston. Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Okay but I was thinking about that going from Houston and Austin to Boston was like, what was that? I mean A) you got the weather, B) you've got the cultural thing.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Because the Boston New England thing, there's a thing there.

Ray Isle:
Oh, there's a thing.

Doug Shafer:
You know there's a thing-

Ray Isle:
And it's-

Doug Shafer:
... and it's not good, it's not, it's not necessarily good or bad, it's just, it's a thing and it's, it's unique to that area.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
My experience. And so you rolling in there-

Ray Isle:
Yeah, rolling in there and, and, and we lived, um, me and four roommates lived in this hideous apartment above a fortune teller in-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
... on the basis of a place called Winter Hill, which is on the Somerville Medford border.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
And it's, it's basically where Whitey Bulger used to hang out.

Doug Shafer:
Oh. (laughs).

Ray Isle:
(laughs). So, so it was a really cheap apartment. It was a pretty rough, at the time and I mean it's much more gentrified now. It was pretty much relatively, you know, there was still kinda tough Boston aspects.

Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah.

Ray Isle:
And you know, the, the, you know, there was, there was some skepticism about any college kid walking down the street, (laughs), and, and it, and it was just also just such a radically different culture. I mean-

Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.

Ray Isle:
... you know, I remember a couple of things. One, I remember walking into the, at the time like I said, I did have a Texas accent and I walked into the local sandwich shop-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... called The White Sport weirdly enough. I don't know why it was called the White Sport. And I said, "do you all have something?" And like literally everyone in the place looked at me like, "who are you and what are you doing in our town?" (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
And you know, I thought, okay, (laughs), this, I feel a little conspicuous and-

Doug Shafer:
So you were probably 20, 24, 25. Something like that?

Ray Isle:
Yeah, I was, I was probably, yeah, around right around there. And I did finish that, um, degree at well and, and then from there I moved to D.C., um-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... helped run a rare bookstore, uh, in D C., um, weirdly enough, um-

Doug Shafer:
This is after your, after your?

Ray Isle:
... after- after the master's.

Doug Shafer:
Got it.

Ray Isle:
Yeah work, well I was writing fiction and trying to figure out how to become a novelist.

Doug Shafer:
So you arrive, so yeah, so yeah-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... so that, that, at this point the plan is I- I'm a writer.

Ray Isle:
Uh, yeah at this point the plan is I'm a writer, I'm gonna write novels that will-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
... sell enough to support me.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
That is very bad plan. I will just point out.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, come on now.

Ray Isle:
You know. Well, writing novels is not a bad plan, but writing novels that you expect to support you is not necessarily a good plan.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
Um.

Doug Shafer:
All right.

Ray Isle:
But then, you know, going into wine making is not necessarily a good plan either.

Doug Shafer:
Agreed.

Ray Isle:
You know, um, so I moved to D.C., but I ended up sort of meeting a girl and staying together with her even though she was still in Boston. I used to take the train up and she was working at a, at a, um, she was actually in grad school in- in Providence at that point and worked at a high end restaurant called Angels, which is closed eons ago.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
And I remember going up a couple of times and sitting at the bar and waiting for her to get off work. I'd take the train up, you know, and- and to go see the girlfriend. And the guys at the bar be like, you know, "have glass wine, try this, try this." And-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... and that was, that was the beginning of-

Doug Shafer:
Is that when it started? 

Ray Isle:
...That's kinda when it started.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
That's kind of when, it's kinda when, I mean up until then I kind of just, if you drank anything, you drank, whatever. It's like you get out of college, you drink beer.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
You know there's a, there's a Miller light, you drink a Miller light-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... cause it's there, you don't want to give it a whole lot of thought. And that's the first time I started like giving any kind of thought to wine.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
And also started thinking, Oh this stuff's pretty good. And then I stayed in D.C. and that, and that girl who I'm no longer for a long time have not been involved with-

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Ray Isle:
... but she moved down, we lived together for a little while and, and the, one of the big transition points from my life as a wine person was we went out to dinner with her father at one point to a restaurant called Restaurant Nora. And he ordered a bottle of '84 Diamond Creek Volcanic Hill, which probably had, I mean this- this is probably '89 at this point-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... and I-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... and I remember sitting at this table ostensibly talking to my girlfriend's father and, and my girlfriend, but basically sitting there drinking this wine thinking, what is this stuff? This is amazing, you know? And-

Doug Shafer:
So you can remember that?

Ray Isle:
... vividly, yeah.

Doug Shafer:
'Cause this, you know, people will ask me, "where was your moment? What was your wine?" I don't, I don't have one. I don't have the story like that.

Ray Isle:
Yeah. I, I, I vividly remember it and I remember, and it's often, you know, you know this feeling where you get to the end of the glass and you're like, man, there's, that's it, there's no more?

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
You're kind of like trying to, trying to take smaller sips, is it starting to disappear? And you know, the bottles empty. And I know, I remember it, you know, to this day and it, uh, and it really got me interested in wine. I mean-

Doug Shafer:
You can remember it was, it was Diamond Creek Volcanic Hill '84 vintage.

Ray Isle:
... Diamond Creek Volcanic Hill. It was 1984 vintage, which I had about, and it was on the Nora list.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
It probably was fi- it, there was more older wine floating around-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... kind of, I don't think there was kind of this rigidity of, of current vintage. And so I started looking at, cause I were working in a bookstore, I started looking at wine books.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
I remember I went out, I couldn't find Diamond Creek and I probably couldn't have afforded it actually-

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Ray Isle:
... but I found like a Freekmark Abby Bosche-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... from the same year for 19.99-

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Ray Isle:
... which is what it costs back then, which is tells you something. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
And I remember buying it, taking home, trying that. And, and my girlfriend who was living with me also had a little bit of wine knowledge from her restaurant career.

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Ray Isle:
So, um, so I started going to Calvert Woodley. I started talking-

Doug Shafer:
Oh, in D.C. yeah, yeah great- great store.

Ray Isle:
... yeah, talking to guys, you know, do you have, what can I try? I mean-

Doug Shafer:
You're the guy hanging out on the weekend talking to the wine guy in the store.

Ray Isle:
Talking, talking to the wine guy.

Doug Shafer:
Saying, "What's, what's new? What's cool?"

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And- and that's their job. They love it. So they're like, they're like-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... and someone like you walks in, they're like-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... you know.

Ray Isle:
And I, but I was like the what's new, what's cool, I've got 20 bucks. You know?

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
But, but at the time, 20 bucks could get you-

Doug Shafer:
It could get you some good wines.

Ray Isle:
... it could get you, could get you, um, it could get you, you know, Ridge Geyserville, Freemark Abbey, it could get you, you know, good Crozes-Hermitage, it could get you, you know-

Doug Shafer:
24 bucks could, could get you ‘88 Hillside Select.

Ray Isle:
... it, there you go.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
Which is kind of mind blowing.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
And he should've sold me some Hillside Select.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
Bastard. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
It was on allocation.

Ray Isle:
Yeah. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Well that's great.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
So that's how it started.

Ray Isle:
That's how it started. And then-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... you know, fast forward a couple of years, I got, I got a fellowship to, um, another writing fellowship to Stanford, a thing called a Stegner Fellowship.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
Um, which is a, a writer in, it, it's sort of like a graduate write, a graduate school writer and residence thing. And I'd-

Doug Shafer:
So you're at Stanford. You're actually writing and you're teaching too?

Ray Isle:
And I was, I was teaching as a lecturer for a few years.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
So I was Stanford for five years, all totaled, um, 93 to 98.

Doug Shafer:
What were you, I was curious, so what were you teaching? You’re teaching creative writing?

Ray Isle:
I was teaching, I was teaching, um, creative writing to undergrads.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
And um-

Doug Shafer:
That must of been kind of fun.

Ray Isle:
... and a short, and a short story class as well.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
And it was a blast. I mean, it- it's, there's nothing, there are lots of things about academia I don't like the in-fighting and the politics-

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Ray Isle:
... and that kind of thing. And a little bit of the, the, there's a weird having grown up in it, there's a weird kind of like stasis to it that you stay the same, you get older and older and the kids stay the same age.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
Which is weird cause you're always teaching 19 to 20 year olds and you're sort of gradually getting-

Doug Shafer:
Gradually older and older and older.

Ray Isle:
... older and older. Which, which rubbed me oddly. And, but the thing I did love about doing that was teaching.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
And teaching, teaching smart students about literature was a blast. And one of the things I still love doing with wine is teaching wine classes.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
It's, it's, you know, it, uh, wine class is a little different because you've got like an hour class, you've got 45 minutes before everybody isn't paying attention anymore.

Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.

Ray Isle:
So.

Doug Shafer:
'Cause you're tasting wine.

Ray Isle:
But, but I was fortunate because... so I was, I was hanging out at Stanford, um, and, and writing and, and teaching.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
But I was into wine. So I was buying wine, you know, once a week I'd go to K&L down, you know, nearby and, and buy something-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... what- whatever it'd be. You know, I was sort of exploring the wine world and, and then I started hanging out at wineries, you know, I mean, not really even hanging out, just driving up to Napa and tasting or driving up to Sonoma and tasting.

Doug Shafer:
So you'd come up from Stanford, you'd come up to-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... Napa and Sonoma and-

Ray Isle:
Yeah, drive up for the weekend with a, with a friend or, you know, whoever... there were some girlfriends, (laughs), you know, it's a great place to go with a girlfriend. You know?

Doug Shafer:
So this, so this was like, this was like a major interest, major hobby.

Ray Isle:
It was a major hobby.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
And, and what's interesting is it- it probably wouldn't have become such a major hobby, it certainly wouldn't become a career if I'd gotten a writing fellowship at Iowa or Michigan or Texas or any other school. I happened to get one in the Bay area, which put me close to wineries.

Doug Shafer:
And, and, and, and that-

Ray Isle:
And-

Doug Shafer:
... and that time period was when things were busting loose around here.

Ray Isle:
Oh yeah.

Doug Shafer:
It really, it really were, it really were.

Ray Isle:
It was. And, and what I found out, I actually found it out from a guy at K&L as there were a couple of salespeople that, you know-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
... would- would tolerate, you know, some random 26 year old with 20 bucks, you know?

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
And, and he's like, you know, "You, you can, you can work bottlings for some of these small, really small wineries and they'll, they'll pay you in wine." And I, and, and I was like, "well, I don't need, I mean, I could use cash, but I'd really rather have wine that I can't afford."

Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.

Ray Isle:
So I used to, um, work, I worked bottlings a couple of times. This is mobile bottling stuff.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.

Ray Isle:
And I worked bottlings a couple of times for a guy named Duane Cronin in the Santa Cruz mountains who made-

Doug Shafer:
I know the name, yeah.

Ray Isle:
... Yeah, he made lovely, um, really lovely Chardonnay, Santa Cruz Mountain Chardonnay.

Doug Shafer:
Working in a bottling truck.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Good.

Ray Isle:
Or, or slapping or, or putting bottles into a box or-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... you know, you work all day-

Doug Shafer:
Or capsules on. Isn't-

Ray Isle:
... and then you get paid in six bottles of wine-

Doug Shafer:
... Yeah but isn't bottling just when you're working the line isn't it the most tedious thing in the world? It drives you crazy.

Ray Isle:
It's, it's really tedious unless you only do it one day out of the month.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, okay. There you go.

Ray Isle:
Then it's kind of-

Doug Shafer:
But when you do like six days in a row on a run let me tell you.

Ray Isle:
... then it's, and it, and it's yeah, no and then it's different. But I also worked, I came up and, and, uh, helped like did the same thing for Nils Venge at Saddleback.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, Nils. Okay.

Ray Isle:
Um, so I have some old Saddleback sitting in my cellar so that I've got paid in, you know-

Doug Shafer:
Well that was his own winery. He started Villa Mount Eden.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Years ago.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Great winemaker. And then he started his own label, Saddleback.

Ray Isle:
Saddleback.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, okay.

Ray Isle:
And then now his son is, is a pretty sig-

Doug Shafer:
Kirk. Kirk Venge. He got a-

Ray Isle:
... you know, very pop, well-respected consultant.

Doug Shafer:
I need to get him in here. I should get those, both those guys in here.

Ray Isle:
Nils has some amazing stories.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah I know he does.

Ray Isle:
(laughs).

Doug Shafer:
I've, I've heard 'em in a bar.

Ray Isle:
Yeah. Yeah. So, so, and- and as this is going on I'm- I'm kind of like, I, I'm sort of got this tea-, you know, the, the academic teaching thing going on and the, and the wine thing going on in. And the, the more I start doing the wine thing, I start thinking, I really like this world.

Doug Shafer:
Interesting. Okay.

Ray Isle:
And so what happened then was I, I basically forced myself on Clos LaChance Winery, which at the time was up in the Santa Cruz mountains in the old Saratoga Springs facility.

Doug Shafer:
Clos LaChance, yeah.

Ray Isle:
Um, you know, it's sort of like we don't, we need an intern. Well I'd really like to work for free.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
And so I worked harvest, um, '97 and '98.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
Uh, as a, um-

Doug Shafer:
Just a grunt.

Ray Isle:
... volunteer cellar rat-

Doug Shafer:
Cellar grunt, yeah.

Ray Isle:
... like hosing, you know, hosing out everything that could be hosed out.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
Scrubbing things, cleaning, and despite the fact, and- and you remember '97 was, was a huge harvest. Um-

Doug Shafer:
That's the-

Ray Isle:
(laughs).

Doug Shafer:
... that's the year I rented tanker trucks.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And parked them here to use as tanks.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
'Cause I was out of tanks.

Ray Isle:
Yeah, and, and so, and the Clos LaChance model was that the guy who founded it was an HP executive.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
And he had this idea that, um, which was a pretty smart idea, that there are all these, and it's probably still the case, their all these Silicon Valley execs and up to the Hills there who have these-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... have might like a one acre vineyard in their backyard.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
And then he would help them plant it and then he would take the fruit and that would be, you know what, that would be some of the fruit that was coming into the Clos LaChance pipeline.

Doug Shafer:
Okay. Okay.

Ray Isle:
And-

Doug Shafer:
Smart.

Ray Isle:
... which is, which is great except in a year like '97 where there's just a super abundance of fruit. So it's just like-

Doug Shafer:
Just keeps coming.

Ray Isle:
... this onslaught of Pinot Noir.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
So I did a lot of punching down in macro bins. Um, but I really loved it. I mean, it was, it was, I sort of moved my teaching schedule where I could work there full time during the harvest. And, and I kinda just fell in love with both. You know, I'd already kind of fall in love with wine-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... but I fell in love with the, the world of wine too, just the people, the, the, the whole thing. Um, you know, the smell of, of-

Doug Shafer:
Oh, the fermentation during harvest it's just fantastic.

Ray Isle:
... fermentation and, and it's, as it turns out, I now know it's a great education as a wine writer to work a couple of harvests because you learn so much, so fast about just the, the way aromas shift over- over fermentation, the way what, what, you know, freshly crushed grapes smell like, and then you smell it on the bottle, and, and what that transition is.

Doug Shafer:
You know I, just it's funny, you funny you bring that up-

Ray Isle:
It's-

Doug Shafer:
... that you, because you had that experience it just makes you... and someone that doesn't and the write about wine, it's, it's no, no big deal, but there's no way they can relate to it. But since you've had that, if you and I were tasting a wine something I made-

Ray Isle:
Right. Right.

Doug Shafer:
... and I'd say this and that and you're coming at because, 'cause you, you have a feel for what goes into that.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And it's, it's-

Ray Isle:
From, from start to finish.

Doug Shafer:
... Yeah.

Ray Isle:
Which, and I feel very lucky about that. Um, you know, I, I-

Doug Shafer:
Interesting. Good.

Ray Isle:
... it was really fortunate th- that I got that chance and I, and I kind of did the, I kinda did the internship one cause I was curious, but two I thought, you know, maybe I can write something about this. I'll write an ar- you know, I, I was writing pretty regularly for the Stanford alumni magazine.

Ray Isle:
I just thought, you know, I'll, I'll do something with this.

Doug Shafer:
That's right, so meanwhile you're still writing.

Ray Isle:
Still writing, yeah, still writing.

Doug Shafer:
And are you publishing anything?

Ray Isle:
Published short stories in quarterlies here and there.

Doug Shafer:
Okay. All right.

Ray Isle:
I was working on a novel, which has not seen the light of day and will not see the light of day. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
I mean it, it's got a, you know, it has its points, but it, it structurally just was a mess, so.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
And I think looking back, I think I'm probably a journalist rather than a fiction writer. I mean, I love writing, but I like facts. I like learning new stuff.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
Um, and I, and I was figuring out at the same time I was falling in love with the whole world of wine that wine as a subject to write about is pretty cool because it's- it's not just, you know, tastes like blackberries and 93 points.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
It's, you know, it involves cultural history, it involves economics, it involves agriculture, it involves, you know, um, you know, unique personalities, it involves really interesting personalities. It, you know, it's, it kinda covers, you know, it's, it's either art or artisanship. Um, it's, it covers kind of the whole world nexus of things you could write about.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
You can come at it any direction you want.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, you, it's true because I'd like to see more-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
That's part of the reason I do this.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
I'm getting stories from people. I get now, now I know, now I, I find out where they came from and what they do and what their interests are and it's like, Oh, that's why they kind of do this when they make wine and they do that.

Ray Isle:
Yeah. And I think, I think it's vital. I think that's, you know, it's one of the problems I have with the sort of critical structure around wine, which is the, the, the point score and the, the wine right up.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
Is that it, it, it eliminates the story behind the wine. It boils down some adjectives and a point score, which, and the, and the story and the people behind the wine is what I find, and the story of the place is at least with real, you know, let's, you know, you could have manufactured wines that are an industrial product for sure.

Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.

Ray Isle:
And that's like they're not that different from Coca-Cola. Um, but with, with actual wine that comes from a place and it's made by-

Doug Shafer:
People.

Ray Isle:
... people and who have, uh, who have some kind of vision, you know, that's a, that's a big part of the wine for me. That's, that's part of why it's exciting and interesting. And it's why it's like I always, I always feel like if you, you know, if you can just as a consumer, if you can go to a region you love, you should go there cause you'll, you'll understand the wine so much better just by walking around a few vineyards and talking to the people live there. Whether it's Napa or, or Piedmont-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
... or, or you know, Rioja or whatever.

Doug Shafer:
Wherever.

Ray Isle:
So-

Doug Shafer:
So, so the wine bug's kicking you big time.

Ray Isle:
(laughs). Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
So most people when they get the wine bug, you know, they'd go to Fresno State-

Ray Isle:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... or UC Davis and get a, you know, cellar job or-

Ray Isle:
Yeah, or-

Doug Shafer:
... or you know, and, and start, you know, making wine.

Ray Isle:
Well, yeah.

Doug Shafer:
But, but you didn't-

Ray Isle:
I didn't.

Doug Shafer:
... do that.

Ray Isle:
No.

Doug Shafer:
You didn't do that.

Ray Isle:
I thought I was gonna move to Napa or Sonoma-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... and work for a winery and maybe in, in some kind of, you know, marketing-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
... context or whatever. I did, I didn't have the, the scien- I didn't think I had the scientific background to do, I mean, I would have had to have, you know, gone to UC Davis and done a lot of like-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... backup work in, in chemistry and biology-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
... and so on. But what weirdly what happened was I met my now wife, um, at a, her cousin married my cousin basically.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay.

Ray Isle:
Got set up at the rehearsal dinner. We're sitting next to each other. It's like you're single, you're single. Okay.

Doug Shafer:
A wedding set up.

Ray Isle:
It was a total wedding setup. And it worked. And, and they aren't even married anymore, but we're still together. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
So, um, but, but she was in New York.

Doug Shafer:
When was this? What year?

Ray Isle:
This was, this was '90, uh, '98.

Doug Shafer:
'98 so you were, you were still-

Ray Isle:
Well no, well we met in '97.

Doug Shafer:
But you were, so you were still in Stanford but working up-

Ray Isle:
Still in Stanford.

Doug Shafer:
... working wine, working at - right.

Ray Isle:
Working wine stuff, thinking I'm going to move up to Napa, Sonoma, I meet this girl. Um-

Doug Shafer:
She lives where?

Ray Isle:
She lives in New York.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
She has a great job in New York. She does not see necessarily the wisdom behind leaving her great job in New York to move to California, to a guy who, with a guy who wants to be in the wine business-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
... and who isn't even necessarily saying let's get married. Just like kind of like be cool if you were here and I don't have a job.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
'Cause I'd kind of decided at that point I wasn't going to pursue teaching anymore.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
I didn't, I didn't, the whole sort of pursuing tenure track-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... academic job. One, it was going to take me out of wine. Um-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... and two, it was gonna realistically in academia, Stanford doesn't hire from within, so I was going to be in Duluth or God knows where working.

Doug Shafer:
Sure, yeah.

Ray Isle:
I'm trying to get worked my way up the ladder and I just thought I don't want to be in that world. I want to be in the wine world.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
But, so I met her and then we- we were going out for a little while. I was very excited about it 'cause I-

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Ray Isle:
... fell in love with her. And um, and... in a weird series of meeting people, a friend of mine who was, um, in the Stanford writing program, had another friend... it, it ended up with me being at a dinner party with, um, a guy named Peter Scott-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... who, um, worked for Premium Port Wines, which is the Dow's and Graham's, the Symington family.

Doug Shafer:
Out of New York.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
And we were chatting and he's like, you know, I- I- I said something about getting in the wine business and said something about having, you know, trying to figure what I was doing 'cause my girlfriend was in New York and he's like, "we actually have a, you know, we have a supplier rep job open in, in New York, the New York sort of Northeastern area."

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
"We've been looking for someone who has an educational background who really likes port." And I'm like, is this like a setup, (laughs), you know, 'cause I, cause I actually love port-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... and, and I, I was voluntarily drinking port at the time. Um, and I had an educational background. 'Cause they wanted someone who could explain this stuff to account people.

Doug Shafer:
That's true. Because... when you pour a port people are like, "Huh?"

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
"What is this?"

Ray Isle:
Yeah what is this.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
And when you the nuances of, of Tawny versus, versus Ruby versus vintage versus late bottle vintages, yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Late model vintage, right.

Ray Isle:
And so essentially I applied for the job and they hired me-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
... and I was like, guess I'm going to New York to sell port.

Doug Shafer:
So, boom.

Ray Isle:
So, boom.

Doug Shafer:
So you're, so you're from California back to New York. You're how old?

Ray Isle:
I am-

Doug Shafer:
That's funny.

Ray Isle:
... at that point I'm what?

Doug Shafer:
So it was '90's?

Ray Isle:
35, 34, you know.

Doug Shafer:
So it was '99. Something like that?

Ray Isle:
'90, uh, I got there and I mean I started working for PPW in '98.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
So, and zero sales experience.

Doug Shafer:
Oh my gosh.

Ray Isle:
You know, I mean like literally zero. And fair amount of port drinking experience, tons of educational experience and not much New York experience.

Doug Shafer:
Oh.

Ray Isle:
And so, um, it was, it was educational. Um-

Doug Shafer:
And selling port in the summer.

Ray Isle:
Selling port in the summer, selling port in the winter, selling... and it, and port, you know, the, the, I now know, you know this, we would, you know, you'd walk in, you'd meet an account, they'd, they'd buy like, you know, four bottles of Six Grapes and you're, uh, six grapes and you'd be like, yes. Nailed it.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
(laughs). And then you'd talk to someone who was selling Pinot Grigio. They're like, "yeah, I sold 50 cases to the guy."

Doug Shafer:
50 cases today, I know. Oh.

Ray Isle:
Kind of like, this is an odd situation.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Ray Isle:
But it was, it, it was also, again, incredibly helpful. One because... and going back to what, you know, helps as a later on as a full-time wine writer, working in the business of wine is really helpful. It, it, I think it's easy to forget as a writer that the stuff has to actually be sold to people.

Doug Shafer:
It's a business.

Ray Isle:
It's-

Doug Shafer:
It's, it's a lot of work.

Ray Isle:
Yeah. And you can make an amazing wine and if you can't sell it to people you're going to go out of business.

Doug Shafer:
You're not making wine again.

Ray Isle:
You aren't making wine again.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
And you learn about, you know, how wine is priced, and why some wines sell and why some wines don't, and how that whole structure of the three-tier system works and- and everything. And it was, I mean sales is tough. I have, I have massive respect for people who are good at sales.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
I was not particularly good at sales. I can talk and I'm, I'm relatively friendly but I'm not like a shark.

Doug Shafer:
Closing a sale. I'm just blown away 'cause I, I've traveled with a lot of people, you know-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... did sales calls-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... and I, I don't know how they do it, but all of a sudden it's the end of the, at the end of this, you know, session with the wine buyer I'm sitting there doing the Doug Shafer thing-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... and this whoever the rep is says, you know, says, "well, you know, can I put you down for three cases?" And it's like, I'm like, Oh wow, how did he do that? And then the guy says, "sure."

Ray Isle:
Yeah. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
And I go wow how did they do that?

Ray Isle:
Yeah. And, and, and you're like, that's, that's wild. And it's, and the guys who or gals who are really good salespeople, that's a both a personality and a talent.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
I mean, it, it's a, it's funny, in the, in the magazine world where I am now, we've got the edits, editing side and the sales side.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
And the edit side is, um, basically if you, if you're at a party, the salespeople are the fun people, but they're also kind of the dangerous people. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
(laughs). That's-

Ray Isle:
So the editors are great to talk to, but they're calmer, you know.

Doug Shafer:
They're calmer and they kind of keep the ship, ship on an even keel.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Good, good point.

Ray Isle:
Yeah. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
But you know, I love hearing your story because you've got this, you know, interest in wine and then you've got some, you know, experience with production, which gives you that and now you've got experience with the business of selling.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And kind of this background, it's all leading to where you know where you're going to keep going here. But it's kinda-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... it's kinda cool.

Ray Isle:
Well it was, I mean at the time I, I still didn't have any real clue how I was going to get the writing and the wine to, to-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... to merge. And I was, you know, I mean sales is fascinating. I remember working with like, you know, the, the Italian account guy, you've probably worked with the same guy for, for Winebow -

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... in deep Brooklyn and, you know-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... you'd show up at these, you know, in Bensonhurst and so on, you'd show up, you count, you'd have an espresso and you know, he-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... he'd talk to the guy in Italian sell some wine, you know, you show up at next account having espresso, sell some wine, next account happens, espresso sell some wine. You know, we called on one sports, like what do you call, like a sports club-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... like a bar with some TVs with Italian soccer.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, sports bar.

Ray Isle:
And it's sports... well not even a sports bar, more like a sporting club-

Doug Shafer:
Got it. Sporting club.

Ray Isle:
... an Italian sporting club. You know and he talks to the guy and, and, and it's like literally like there's two old guys sitting on stools-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
... and, and one’s, you know, smoking cigars, despite the fact it's illegal at this point, smoke cigars.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
And we'd do like three espressos and he's like, you know, he'll take 13 cases of vintage port. And I'm like, (laughs)-

Doug Shafer:
Who takes 13 cases of vintage port?

Ray Isle:
... vintage port. And this is a place that like maybe sells one Moretti a day. And I said, "well, are you sure?" And he's like, "yeah." I was like, "well, what does he need with 13 cases?" He's like, "don't ask."

Doug Shafer:
Oh, wow.

Ray Isle:
(laughs). So.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Ray Isle:
So it was like-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... okay we're gonna have an espresso. And by the end of the day you've had like 19 espressos and-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... your, your, your brains are about to explode. But, um, it was a fascinating education. But what eventually what happened was I wrote something, I mean I'd written some wine pieces for Stanford alumni magazine.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
Um, and, um, first thing I ever published about wine was for Stanford alumni magazine about Stanford alums in the wine business.

Doug Shafer:
Perfect. Yeah.

Ray Isle:
There you go. But I wrote, it actually wasn't even a wine story. I wrote a profile piece about an author, um, uh, Larry McMurtry. And Josh Green is not a Stanford alum, but he had someone on staff who was and I think at the West Coast office and they read this story and my bio said Ray Isle works in wine in-

Doug Shafer:
In New York City.

Ray Isle:
... New York city for wine import in New York city. And he actually, I think he reached out to me just to find out who I was cause he liked, cause he liked, really liked the profile.

Doug Shafer:
And this, this is Josh Green who founded Wine & Spirits mag-

Ray Isle:
Who founded Wine, Wine & Spirits, yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... magazine. Okay.

Ray Isle:
And we met up, um, I met up with him and with Tara Thomas, who's still his sort of-

Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah, Tara.

Ray Isle:
... right hand person and we just got along really well. Originally, I was talking to him about doing freelance stuff and, and it pretty quickly turned into an editorial job offer-

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Ray Isle:
... and which was exactly what I wanted to do, you know, to was to, to combine the writing and the wine into one job. So I'm, I'm kind of forever grateful to Josh. Thank you Josh. You know for that. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
Yeah. So you walk, so you walked away from selling port.

Ray Isle:
I walked away from selling port to writing full time about wine, writing and editing full time about wine. What was going along, along with this was, you know, the thing about being in the business is, you know, when I was selling port I was also going to trade tastings and so on and, and even though my portfolio was port, port, Madeira, I -

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... Madeira was in there.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
But when you go to like the Winebow harvest tasting, you can taste 150, 200, 2000 different wines.

Doug Shafer:
From all over the world.

Ray Isle:
So I was tasting everything I could possibly taste.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
And then when I went to Wine & Spirits, because Wine & Spirits scores wines, you know, ala the Spectator and Enthusiast we would do, you know, we would do tastings for, for the, you know, critical part of the magazine and you'd do 40 McLaren Vale Shirazes in the morning and you do 40 McLaren Vale Shirazes in the afternoon.

Doug Shafer:
I was going to ask you about that because-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... I bet you were like in just heaven because all of a sudden you get to taste all these different wines.

Ray Isle:
Yeah, and it's, it's, that was like graduate school education in wine. I didn't, I didn't ever do any of the MW or MS-

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Ray Isle:
... or any of that stuff because I didn't, I kind of didn't need to because I learned so much at Wine & Spirits so fast. Um-

Doug Shafer:
'Cause Josh was just a, you know, he- he's a wealth of knowledge.

Ray Isle:
He's a wealth of knowledge. He's a great taster. And, and that, and we were blind tasting. So you know, you, you, you do Australian, you know, McLaren Vale Cabernet-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
... then you'd do you Australia, whatever issue it would be, then, then you know, Australian Barossa Cabernet, then Australian, Western Australian Cabernet, and the next week you'd be doing Chianti and you do, you know, Chianti Classico, Chianti Rufina, and you know, and it's, so, it was this ongoing immersion in, in the character of wines from certain places and also in what was good and what was not good.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
And 'cause you're doing it blind, you also learning that what should be good is not always what's-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
... good and vice versa.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
So that was a blast. I mean, I, I loved being, I was at Wine & Spirits for five years and I- I became Josh's number two, um, person pretty quickly. Um-

Doug Shafer:
So you're writing, you were writing wine articles-

Ray Isle:
I was writing articles.

Doug Shafer:
... reviewing wines.

Ray Isle:
I was the critic for Iberia-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... uh, for the Spanish and, and Spanish wines primarily.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
I was writing, I, writing articles about a bunch of regions. I was editing a lot of the content, so.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
And, um, but the, the hitch was that Josh owns the magazine and, and there was nowhere to go eventually. It was like, you know-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... the only place up was Jo- was, was-

Doug Shafer:
Was Josh's job.

Ray Isle:
... owning the magazine-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... and Josh owned the magazine, so that wasn't gonna change. And so it sort of, I had to, I, I, I had started doing a little bit of freelance writing for Food and Wine. Um, and, uh, they offer me, they kind of wanted to expand their wine coverage. And so I talked to them and I, and I left Wine & Spirits for Food and Wine.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
Which-

Doug Shafer:
And that was in 2005.

Ray Isle:
Five.

Doug Shafer:
Got it.

Ray Isle:
And then, which, which Josh was probably suitably annoyed by, but that's what happens with employees.

Doug Shafer:
Oh that's, you know, that's what happens. It, it-

Ray Isle:
And we're, we're pals now.

Doug Shafer:
... Yeah.

Ray Isle:
You know that, we got over that pretty quickly.

Doug Shafer:
Good.

Ray Isle:
And so I moved to Food and Wine and I've been at Food and Wine literally ever since, which is kind of mind blowing.

Doug Shafer:
14 years.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
Soon to be 15.

Doug Shafer:
Soon to be 15.

Ray Isle:
Which in the media world right now is, is weird. This people don't last in, well, some magazines don't last first off, and then, you know, the tends to be a lot of turnover. But I've, um, I've been very fortunate to have a couple of great, you know, editor-in-chiefs of-

Doug Shafer:
So you started at Food and Wine, '05, so you were just like, what was your, what was your first job there? Just a writer?

Ray Isle:
I was the senior, senior wine editor. I mean Lettie Teague was still there. So Lettie, so I was, you know, Lettie was technically my boss. Dana was, Dana Cowin was everybody's-

Doug Shafer:
Right. Dana. Right.

Ray Isle:
... boss. Basically Dana ran the whole place.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
Lettie was still there. I was, so there were, I mean this time of more staffing in the wine-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
... in, in the magazine world.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
Uh, more robust budgets. But then Lettie left in 2008-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... I guess, or 2009, one of the two and then I just took over being the, the head wine person. Um-

Doug Shafer:
And so you run the whole wine department. Are you involved in the food at all?

Ray Isle:
I run the whole wine department, which is a wine department of me and an intern at the bar. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
(laughs). Are you involved in the food and stuff?

Ray Isle:
You know, the thing about Food and Wine is that, that, um, I'm not involved in actual recipe development, but the idea generation of stories, you can't extricate food from wine in some sense.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
You know, most of the stories have some kind of food aspect as well. I do straight, I do, my column is kind of a straight wine recom- recommendation column.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
But most features that I do have, are- are either tied to, you know, whether it's, you know, a Christmas feast in, you know, in, in Emilia Romana or whether it's, um, you know, a winemaker who's also a chef, or whether it's, you know, just, you know, it can, it, food can play in, in all sorts of ways.

Doug Shafer:
Got it.

Ray Isle:
But I mean, the name of the magazine is Food and Wine.

Doug Shafer:
Exactly.

Ray Isle:
So, so there's a lot of, of trying to incorporate the two together. Um-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I want to go in, I wanna go back to something you-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... kinda touched on a minute ago because right about the time you started at Food and Wine, 2005, we were talking here the other day, it seems like, 'cause we knew you were coming in-

Ray Isle:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
And back, you know, back in before '05 or so, you know, newspapers had, you know-

Ray Isle:
Yep.

Doug Shafer:
... you know, weekly columns or two or three a week. And then all of a sudden bloggers came on the scene. Budgets got slashed.

Ray Isle:
Yep.

Doug Shafer:
You know, you know, to make an living as a wine writer I think was really, really tough.

Ray Isle:
It's-

Doug Shafer:
And I think... and is it still?

Ray Isle:
It is extremely tough. I mean I think-

Doug Shafer:
What's your take on that?

Ray Isle:
... I mean, as I said, I've been very fortunate to have a home-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... a home for 15 years. This is more of a media question than a, than a wine question in a way.

Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.

Ray Isle:
So there's been kind of, what's happened is there's been a shrink, you know, print media has shrunk down.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
Like newspapers their revenue is small-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... or they've cut, like you said, they used to have every newspaper used to have a weekly wine columnist, that doesn't exist anymore.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
I mean the Chronicle has one.

Doug Shafer:
Just, yeah. On the weekend.

Ray Isle:
Times, you know, maybe a few others around the country, but newspapers have cut a lot of stuff. Um, print magazines are smaller than they used to be, though they're more robust than people give them credit for.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
Digital media is grown enormously, but the problem as a writer is that writing for online does not pay nearly as much as writing for print.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
And, and so, so trying to make a living as a wine writer right now is, is tough because you're the, the what you're getting paid per story, most of which is going to be digital is, is hard to make a living on.

Doug Shafer:
Hmm.

Ray Isle:
You know, and it's, and it's a shift of the, of the kind of economics of the whole content creation world, let's say.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
And it's still possible, you know, but it's a, it's harder, it's much harder and easier than when, than when I got into it. I mean, I, I got in in a really good time-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
... in that the interest in wine in the U.S. has gone way up.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
I mean, you know, just compared to like '95 let's say, when I, I mean-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
... you know, when I first started getting really getting into wine in California.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
I think the number of people now who are conversant with wine and really interested in wine and want to read it and get information about it is massively bigger.

Doug Shafer:
Yes.

Ray Isle:
But the, and, but this, and then this goes for not just wine writing, but name you're kind of writing on a, on a topic. The venues for publishing your work, um, that pay well have, have shrunk dramatically.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
There's still plenty of places you can, you can publish online, but you know, ranges anywhere from you know we'll get you exposure by publishing with us online.

Doug Shafer:
Right. Well yeah.

Ray Isle:
Thanks that, that's great. Does the, you know, does the janitor who cleans the room get exposure? No, he gets a paycheck. So I'm a writer, give me a paycheck.

Doug Shafer:
Give me a paycheck. (laughs).

Ray Isle:
(laughs). You know, it's like, come on man.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
Um, and, but even, even, you know, pretty established digital places pay less than what was the going rate for print. And so it becomes, as a freelancer, particularly it's, it's just, it's a tough time. There's, there's a lot of interest in content, but there's not a lot of pay for the content.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
And so, uh, I mean, write, writing in journalism's never been an easy way to make a living, but it's, uh, I think it's tougher now than it ever has been. On the other end, wine I- I do think is, I mean, even if, you know, sales have dipped a little in the past year, I think the U.S. interest in wine.

Doug Shafer:
There's still a good interest.

Ray Isle:
It's still good interest. I mean, totally separate thing for people like you is that there's been this massive proliferation of wines in the market.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
That is, I mean, the, the-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah and, and-

Ray Isle:
... who you're competing against is like thousands of different brands.

Doug Shafer:
So there's lots to write about.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
I mean it's great as a writer- ... it's really not good as someone just trying to sell a bottle of Merlot, you know.

Doug Shafer:
Um, so besides Food and Wine-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... and Travel and Leisure, you've done lots of other things. Um, you've done some C, the CNN blog.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And uh. Oh, hey, I got to ask you about this, 'cause I did see a couple of these shows. You did this thing with William Shatner.

Ray Isle:
I did. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
Tell me about, you gotta describe to everybody what this was.

Ray Isle:
Yeah, so-

Doug Shafer:
It's called Brown Bag Wine Tasting with William Shatner-

Ray Isle:
It was William Shatner.

Doug Shafer:
... which is the Star Trek guy.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
So tell me about this one.

Ray Isle:
Well, so William Shatner turns out, really likes wine.

Doug Shafer:
Okay. (laughs).

Ray Isle:
He, he created this online video series called Brown Bag Wine Tasting, where he would bring wine in a brown bag-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... either to a studio or to a restaurant or grocery store and he taste it with random celebrities and, and whatnot. And I can't remember if they, his people got in touch with me or I got in touch with them, but I grew up watching Star Trek.

Doug Shafer:
Sure. (laughs).

Ray Isle:
And, and it's like, I mean, literally, William Shatner is Captain Kirk-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... you know, come on. And, and so this opportunity came up and just the prospect of being on camera with William Shatner was so-

Doug Shafer:
Oh man, you gotta go.

Ray Isle:
... you know, it's like, I couldn't say no.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
And he's a, he's an odd dude. You know? (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
He's, and he'd, you know, he knows what he likes in terms of wine. He's not, he's not a wine geek. He's not like talk about the soil depth-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... or anything like that. And, and so it was, it's somewhat like this.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
Two people sit in front of a microphone, but then talking about the wine and, and, and Captain Kirk quizzing you, you know but for my mind as I know he's Bill Shatner, but it's like, it feels to me like Captain Kirk is quizzing me about what I like about this wine, which is so surreal. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
So it's, so it's a brown bag, it's a blind tasting.

Ray Isle:
It's a blind tasting.

Doug Shafer:
Did he pour it? Does he know what it is?

Ray Isle:
He knows what it is. Yeah. And he's like-

Doug Shafer:
But he pours your glass and then he, then he runs you through the paces. (laughs).

Ray Isle:
... Yeah. But it's not, it's not, but thankfully it's not trying to identify it as just like-

Doug Shafer:
Oh, thank goodness.

Ray Isle:
... do you like it? What do you like about it? And he wants you to use a metaphor to like describe what you like. Is it like a horse running through a field or is it like being slammed with a rock or whatever, you know.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
And, and we shot it in some random restaurant in LA somewhere. It was a, almost an unusual experience, (laughs), but I wouldn't give it up.

Doug Shafer:
How fun. How fun.

Ray Isle:
I mean-

Doug Shafer:
Oh, I would of loved that.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
That was great.

Ray Isle:
I mean, if my 12 year old self could have seen me like being on camera-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... with William Shatner his brains would have exploded. So-

Doug Shafer:
That's pretty cool.

Ray Isle:
... Yeah, so.

Doug Shafer:
Well good. Um, and what you've done a lot television.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Stanley Tucci, PBS, CNBC's On the Money, Squawk Box and-

Ray Isle:
The Today Show.

Doug Shafer:
... The Today Show. That's great.

Ray Isle:
Lot of Today Show particularly with the fourth hour with, I mean, Kathy Lee just, just retired basically, but with Kathy Lee and Hoda, which is a blast. I mean it's, it's not, um, I mean, Today Show is, is daytime TV-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... like it's not in-depth wine content. It's more fun wine content.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah it's gotta... and they don't give you a lot of time, right?

Ray Isle:
No.

Doug Shafer:
What's the, is it like crazy?

Ray Isle:
No it's about three, three and a half minutes is your average segment.

Doug Shafer:
Three and a half minutes.

Ray Isle:
To get through five wines, let's say.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, come on.

Ray Isle:
With two hosts who are talking the whole time also.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
And you've learned, you learn, you eventually, first you panic, and this is also-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... keep in mind with the Today Show your time is also live TV in front of about 6 million people.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.

Ray Isle:
So there's no redoes.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
Um, uh, I was very glad that I had done theater in college 'cause at least I knew how to kind of like talk in front of an audience and teaching actually helped with that too.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
But you eventually internalize, you internalize a clock so you kind of have a sense of, of your, of the pace of the segment. You talk fast, you talk in sound bites, you know, um, it's like, you know, this Shafer wine, you know, Hillside Select, it's one of the greatest, sought after Cabernets in California from this one tiny plot of perfect vines in Stags Leap District.

Doug Shafer:
Just, just bullet, bullet points, just-

Ray Isle:
And, uh, try it. Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
What do you think? You know, and they are like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, you know, I, I think, you know, it's great wine. Is it, how much does it cost? $275.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
And they're like, Oh my God. And then you like on the other hand, let's try Prosecco.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
(laughs). So, and it really does move you through that quickly. And it's, um-

Doug Shafer:
Is it fun?

Ray Isle:
Oh, it's a blast.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
I, I'm, I'm a ham. I love, you know, being in front of an audience and it's, it's exciting. It, you, I mean, people are wired differently as we know.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
There are, there are unquestionably editors I work with who would rather be shot than be put in front of a TV camera.

Doug Shafer:
Understood.

Ray Isle:
And then there are editors like me who are like, Oh, cool, where's the TV camera?

Doug Shafer:
Where are the lights? Where are the lights?

Ray Isle:
Go towards the lights, you know. (laughs). I'm gonna burn myself up in front of them, but, it is a blast. It's, you know, it's, it's a, it's an adrenaline rush. It's actually you, you do slump after you do a segment. It's like you kind of like, okay.

Doug Shafer:
Interesting, wow.

Ray Isle:
And, um, and I got along... I mean it really comes down to whether the hosts like working with you or not. And Kathy Lee liked me for whatever reason. And so-

Doug Shafer:
Well, you’re a nice guy.

Ray Isle:
I'm a nice guy, you know-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, come on.

Ray Isle:
... there's some people she didn't like, they didn't come back on the show but, but, but so they sort of, they booked me pretty regularly and have done for a long time. I don't-

Doug Shafer:
That's great. That's fun.

Ray Isle:
... I don't know quite what's going to happen with that hour now that she's off 'cause she was, the wine thing was, was sort of something she came up with.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
She was, she was into wine. She has her own wine, out of, uh, Central Coast. And, but I mean, she loves wine. She's actually got a surprisingly good palette. I was on there on one segment, that's the one time I actually like lost my kind of ability to know what I was going to say cause I was, they were blind tasting. It was like, let's do a blind tasting segment. And so they came out with like, you know, big pink, fuzzy-

Doug Shafer:
Oh they, (laughs) -

Ray Isle:
... blindfolds and so on and I, one of the wines I poured was, it was Domaines Ott, um, Rosé -

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
... and I, and I, you know, they picked up the glass and Kathy smelled it and she's like, "you know, this smells like Domaines Ott." And I was like-

Doug Shafer:
Oh, she just nailed it.

Ray Isle:
... and, and yeah she nailed it cause it was, you know, she, she spent time in the Hamptons.

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Ray Isle:
It was the, one in the Hamptons at the time. But even so, I mean I really like was dumbstruck for about 10 seconds where it's like you-

Doug Shafer:
She threw ya.

Ray Isle:
... just blind tasted that wine.

Doug Shafer:
She threw ya.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
That's, that's pretty cool.

Ray Isle:
No she has, she's, you know, people would be surprised she's got a very good palate. 

Doug Shafer:
Well thanks for sharing that.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
It's kind of fun. I mean it's just cool.

Ray Isle:
Yeah it's like I don't know what you do with it, but (laughs)-

Doug Shafer:
No I was curious because then, well when you're watching TV, it's like what's going on behind the scenes.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
But um, what, you know, I don't see really any in depth wine shows. Does wine and TV does, does wine and TV not work? What would work with wine and TV you think?

Ray Isle:
Yeah, it's, it's a question I've, I've thought a lot about and I don't have an answer for.

Doug Shafer:
Huh, okay.

Ray Isle:
And there, and there haven't been a lot of good in, in fact almost no in depth wine shows that are good. The Somm movies have been hit or miss.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
I mean I think Jason's a good director.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
I think the structure of the first one's a classic structure where you've got, it's like, you know, there's a, I forget the high school basketball ones, the same thing where he's got five guys struggling for something-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... and one of them, two of them are going to make it, one's not.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
It's, it's like if you can get a narrative structure like that, you could propel the movie along whether it's about Somm, you know, blind tasting-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... a Somm's and trying to get an MS or spelling bees or you know. But the baseline problem with TV and wine is that TV's a visual medium.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
It's, it's not a verbal medium. It's, and, and wine, the basic actions with wine are you pick up a glass, you know, maybe swirl it and you sip it.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
And that's, that's just not that interesting.

Doug Shafer:
It's either red or it's white.

Ray Isle:
It's red or it's white.

Doug Shafer:
Or pink.

Ray Isle:
And you can talk about it then, but it's, it's, you know, compared to a cooking show where you've got people running around and knives and fire.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, kni- you've got knives.

Ray Isle:
You got knives and you've got fire.

Doug Shafer:
Fire.

Ray Isle:
Yeah. And you've got, you know, and all this-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah and fire's bigger. You've got the, you know, something's, uh, you know, you're grilling something-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... and, and, and the grease is popping.

Ray Isle:
And there's, and there's innately time issues and wine is not time-driven it's slow. It's, you know, the quote... you know and I can't take credit for it, but it's like the original slow food. It's, you know, wines on a different-

Doug Shafer:
I've never heard that quote.

Ray Isle:
... just a different schedule than-

Doug Shafer:
That's a great quote.

Ray Isle:
... Yeah, and it's on a different schedule than, than, than food is. I mean, not that agriculture, but then cooking. So, so the tricky thing with TV is it's like, it's a visual medium-

Doug Shafer:
It's a visual.

Ray Isle:
... you have to capture attention. So you've got two things with wine. You can do an in studio show where you've got people sitting around swirling glasses and talking.

Doug Shafer:
Oh boy, that sounds boring. That sound boring, yeah.

Ray Isle:
Or even do an on, on site thing where you've got lots of panning shots of vineyards and so on. But the problem is that no matter how beautiful wine region is, vineyards all eventually start to look the same on TV.

Doug Shafer:
And barrels look the same and-

Ray Isle:
And barrels look the same.

Doug Shafer:
... and tanks look the same.

Ray Isle:
And tanks definitely look the same.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs). And hoses look the same, yeah.

Ray Isle:
I know.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah. It's kind of boring.

Ray Isle:
Yeah. As, as a wine writer, I'll tell you, every wine writer sort of dreads the, let's go see the tanks, you know?

Doug Shafer:
Oh, well that, we stopped doing it because, you know-

Ray Isle:
Thank, God.

Doug Shafer:
... we used, we used to give tours, you know, to our and we finally started doing some questionnaires and people said, "hey, we just want to taste the wine. We've seen barrels. We've seen tanks."

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
I'm like, good, I'm with you.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
But every once in a while there's one or two that want to so we take 'em over.

Ray Isle:
It's like, you know one, 2000 gallon stainless steel tank really looks a lot like the next one. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
So.

Doug Shafer:
They do.

Ray Isle:
But, so I'm still trying to figure out what the, there's an answer out there. There's a great wine show out there somewhere that has yet to be done. And I, and I, I still can't quite nail it. I did this show with Stanley Tucci-

Doug Shafer:
Hmm, yeah.

Ray Isle:
... for one season, which foundered on the, the, it was actually would likely have been renewed except the producers were the financial aspects of it were all a total mess.

Doug Shafer:
Was it, what was it? What'd you guys do?

Ray Isle:
We basically, he was the host and I was the wine host and it was, it was almost like a get some celebrities and a chef together and, and have a, um, dinner party-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... with wine and we talk a little bit, we'd have them blind taste wines and rate their favorites. But it was also about like what Broadway show you were doing right now and what the chef's restaurant was opening. So it was kind of a chat show with blind, with like blind, do you love it, do you hate it wine stuff and talking points.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
And it, it, I think if it had gone for another season and been refined to some degree, you know, people, that's one way you get around the problem of people like not doing nothing but swirling and, and talking is you get celebrities.

Doug Shafer:
Well, you got, you got-

Ray Isle:
People watch celebrities.

Doug Shafer:
... you got people telling stories.

Ray Isle:
Yeah, yeah. You got people telling stories and they're people that innately other people want to watch. I mean, you know, we had Julianne Moore on the show.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
I mean, I'll watch Julian Moore. I mean she's, she's gorgeous.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
And she's an interesting and funny.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
...you know? Um, so we had this whole range of people, mostly people that Stanley had brought in and it was a blast doing it. It just, it just, it just foundered on financial issues, you know.

Doug Shafer:
All right, well let's, let's, you know, we'll get together off mic here and brainstorm some ideas.

Ray Isle:
Let's do that. Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
That's a good reason to drink a bottle of Cabernet together.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
I'm with you. It'd, it'd be fun to see if what would work.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
But, it's, it's a challenge, isn't it?

Ray Isle:
It is.

Doug Shafer:
'Cause it's visual.

Ray Isle:
But like I said, there's, there's, there's a great idea out there somewhere.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
It may not be me who comes up with it, but there is a great TV wine TV show to be done.

Doug Shafer:
We'll do it together. You and me.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
It'd be our next gig. Um, so almost 20, well, 20 years writing about wine-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... wine and food for you. Um, I- I was thinking about you the other day, you know, you got the old, you know, what do you pair with turkey? Uh, what are you going to do for Easter? You know, and it's Mother's Day, it's Father's Day, the top 10 wines for Christmas. How do you, how do you stay engaged and challenged when you still gotta deal so- some of those things?

Ray Isle:
Um, yeah, I mean the, the, you know, the, the, the service, you know, the journalism kind of falls into service stories and, and, and longer, more interesting stories-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... and the service stuff, you know, yeah, I mean, what wine goes with turkey, I don't think I'm doing that one again. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
And then you do the, I mean, Thanksgiving is the classic. It's like what wine goes with turkey. Then you do the column that's, you know, well, in fact, ignore the turkey because turkey doesn't have any flavor you got to pair it with all the sides.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Ray Isle:
And then you do the one where it's like, well you can't actually pair anything 'cause you've got so many different flavors, so go with the wine that pairs with everything. And then you do the, you know, well actually you should have cider cause ciders, the original beverage of the Americas, you know, and, and I've done all of these. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
You've done them all.

Ray Isle:
You know, and, and eventually you just go like, I don't know man, open a bottle of wine and don't worry about it. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
(laughs). Just, just, just grab one.

Ray Isle:
But, um, the thing that keeps me going through the, the, the service stuff is that it's still exciting to find new wines.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
So, and the, the research for those service stories is tasting a lot-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... and calling and calling in samples, or going to tastings or whatever. And you know, it's still pretty cool to find... I- I actually particularly like finding affordable wines, you know, because-

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Ray Isle:
... it's really great when you find something, whether it's, whether it's 15 bucks or 35 bucks that wildly outperforms. It's-

Doug Shafer:
It's, it's price point, yeah.

Ray Isle:
... it's category. And, and I think it helps me not having grown up either wildly wealthy or as a wine drinker. I still ... will kinda come at it a little bit as a- as my former self of-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
... like, you know, what- what's, you know, this is... let- let me find something I can actually afford that's really great.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
And it's, you know, it's finding a 200-buck wine that's good is not that hard.

Doug Shafer:
Agreed.

Ray Isle:
You know it... there are some that are better and some that are worse, but, you know, the number of really god-awful 200-buck wines is pretty low.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
But it's- it is really interesting to taste through 20-buck Chardonnays, and-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... once in a while you get one and you're like, "Damn, that's really good." And then you get... if you get enough, the- for our column, that's pretty cool. And it also... I- I do think it's helpful to readers. Like, people really do wanna know what to buy, and there's a lot to buy out there.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
And it's daunting. And it... And there's- there's no question in my mind that most of our readers and most people who are not... who are the average American wine buyer, walk into a store and look at a shelf of wines and are, like, "Oh. I have no idea, man." (laughs)

Doug Shafer:
I know, it's... No, I'm with you.

Ray Isle:
You know.

Doug Shafer:
It happens to me. I mean, that- because that's your service.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
That's where you-

Ray Isle:
I mean it-

Doug Shafer:
That's part of the... part of the gig for you guys.

Ray Isle:
Yeah. And it's... I mean it... particularly with categories like Chardonnay, for instance, you know-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
Ah, and- and I- I used this analogy when I was in some store here. Or maybe it was a class. But, you know, it's a little bit like if you went into a store and there were 200... like a Total Wine, and instead it was Total Food... and you went in and there were 200 kinds of chicken soup, and they ranged from, like, $4.99 a can to-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... st- $179 a can-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) What-

Ray Isle:
And there were- there were 200 different brands, too, and- and you would look at that wall of chicken soup and you'd be, like-

Doug Shafer:
What-

Ray Isle:
... "This is insane!" (laughs)

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Ray Isle:
And- and, "I just want some good chicken soup to drink, or eat, or whatever,"-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... and that's like looking at a wall of Chardonnay in a, you know-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that's a great analogy.

Ray Isle:
And-

Doug Shafer:
I'm gonna use that one.

Ray Isle:
And it's one reason why people love point scores, 'cause it- it-

Doug Shafer:
It gives them something.

Ray Isle:
... it's- it really is... And it's not an- it's not a non-valid shortcut, you know. I mean I- I think consumers need some help with this whole thing.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
I mean, I- I always say first- first pl- plan of attack if you're a buy... a consumer buying wine, is find a good wine store where people actually know something and will talk to you, and- and so on.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
It's much... Pay the extra buck, you know. That's- that's how I got my basic first education in wine, was going to K&L-

Doug Shafer:
K&L.

Ray Isle:
... and talking to the guys, and it was great, you know. I'd say I got, you know, last- last time I was here, I tried this whatever, Zinfandel, and he went back, "Well, why don't you try this from, you know-

Doug Shafer:
Exactly, yeah.

Ray Isle:
... one from Southern Italy and see what you think." And that's- that kind of even baseline advice, it goes a long way. But, um, I for- ... I can't actually remember where I- where we started with this question (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
No, no, it was... My god (laughs).

Ray Isle:
But... It's, like, a long tangent (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
I can't- I can't- I can't either. No, but it... No, it's um, it's staying... Well no, doing- staying engaged and-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... you know, from this-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
That's- that- that's what we were talking about.

Ray Isle:
So- so that... Yeah. So if the service stuff, it's... And it's always, you know, there's s- sometimes it's, you know, biodynamics s- starts coming up-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
... as a topic, so you start tasting a bunch of biodynamic wines to do that, you know.

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Ray Isle:
Natural wine.

Doug Shafer:
Um, well that's the... But you nailed it. Part of your job's gotta be trends. Spotting trends.

Ray Isle:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Doug Shafer:
How do you do that?

Ray Isle:
Um, talking to people.

Doug Shafer:
Talking.

Ray Isle:
I mean, and reading everything you can, and going to tastings. I mean it's, you know, talk to sommeliers. They're-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, they're too good.

Ray Isle:
They're very on trend. Um, it- that's- the trick is sorting out real trends from little...

Doug Shafer:
Blips.

Ray Isle:
Flips.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
Natural wine, for instance, I think is a real- is a real and lasting trend.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
Whether- whether you like the wines or don't like the wines, there's n- I- that category is not going away-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
... and I suspect it's only gonna grow.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I'd agree.

Ray Isle:
Whereas, you know, not to pick on Canary Islands, but Canary Islands' wines were a- a- a- ... momentary flurry of interest in the New York somm world. There's just not- not that much wine from the Canary Islands. Some of it's wonderful, but it's not gonna be a major national trend in wine 'cause-

Doug Shafer:
Got it.

Ray Isle:
... only 1,000 cases come into the US.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
You know. So you kinda sort- sort these things out, but-

Doug Shafer:
Got it.

Ray Isle:
... but also, you know, when you, as a writer let's say, and you'll start talking to a somm, they're, like, "I'm super into the Canary Islands right now," you think well; talk to another somm and they're, like, "I'm really into Santorini," and you start thinking, well what about some kinda column on volcanic island wines, you know.

Doug Shafer:
There you go.

Ray Isle:
And you suddenly... then you're looking at course... you know, what, you know, Canary Islands, um, Santorini, Corsica, you know, Sicily, Mount Etna, you know; and then it starts to be-

Doug Shafer:
There’s a - 

Ray Isle:
... coalesce into a serv- ah, a really good column.

Doug Shafer:
Column.

Ray Isle:
Then there's the 10-buck wines for grilling, which-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
Which is another one.

Ray Isle:
Which is another one, and people really wanna know what 10-buck wines are grilling, you know (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
So are you- you traveling a lot for the job?

Ray Isle:
I travel a fair amount, yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
I travel- I travel... Well I'm out here this weekend, for instance, for this Food and Wine-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... Best New Chef Reunion weekend, which is a- a series of consumer dinners and so on, which I... That's one thing I travel for, is events.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
So like our food... our class... the Food and Wine Classic in Aspen, I'm there every year; Pebble Beach Food and Wine.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, we... Yeah, I wanna talk about that.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
That you've... Aspen... Food and Wine has been doing the Aspen festival in June for how many years?

Ray Isle:
Oh, 30...

Doug Shafer:
30?

Ray Isle:
Ah, 35 or 40. Oh, god.

Doug Shafer:
So that's gotta be, that's-

Ray Isle:
Yeah. Well we're- we're 42-years-old, so it...

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
Yeah, a long time.

Doug Shafer:
And that's a, it's a wonderful... Again, describe that event for some folks-

Ray Isle:
So-

Doug Shafer:
... that might not know about it.

Ray Isle:
So that event... So the Food and Wine Classic in Aspen is kinda the granddaddy of the wine and food festivals in the US.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
It started, you know, I- I should know, but I was gonna say 37 years ago-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... 34 years ago. It was originally 500 people, Ju- I mean Julia Child among them, gathering in Aspen to- to do some cooking demos and so on. It's now 5,000 people; we take over the entire town. It's a weekend of wine tastings, cooking demos...

Doug Shafer:
Wine sem-

Ray Isle:
... party-

Doug Shafer:
Wine seminars. Yeah, parties.

Ray Isle:
... up on top of the mountain, wine seminars. Um, ah, it's- it's great. I mean, Aspen in June is spectacularly beautiful. It's- it's a walk... It's a walking town, and the- the level of chefs we get in is astonishing. I mean it's like... It's- it is a great lineup of chefs, usually doing- doing demos and doing interviews and things. And then, um, the wine seminar is we do 20, ah, 20, 22 different wine seminars and-

Doug Shafer:
Wow, and are you in charge of all that?

Ray Isle:
I'm-

Doug Shafer:
Kinda?

Ray Isle:
I'm co-in charge of it-

Doug Shafer:
Got it.

Ray Isle:
... with- with the, our- our person on our marketing side who- who does all the logistics for the-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... for the thing. And then, um, and that involves... So we- we bring in outside speakers, you know-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
... and, I mean, and, um, typically not winemakers; it's typically other journalists or- or sommeliers who- who talk about topics, and it can be any- really anything from you know, super rosés for the summertime, to a deep dive into grower Champagne, to, you know, the up and coming Napa superstars, you know. And- and people... I mean, it's great. People love it. And it's- and it's- it's a- a kinda idyllic weekend in the mountains, saturated with food and with wine.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
So what happens with Aspen is there's- it's a- it's a c- it's a consumer event...

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
... but because of the nature of the event, there are a lot of winemakers in town because there- we have a grand tasting tent.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
There are several hundred wineries in the grand tasting tent. That draws a lot of account and trade people, so, um, there's a- there's a kind of connected event, or overlapping event, which is the AMEX trade program in Aspen-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... which is a in- invite on- only thing for restaurateurs. I created a sort of secondary event within an event at Aspen called Somm Talks, which is a- a... and again, invite only... series of sort of higher-end, um, like let's take a deep dive into Grand Cru Chablis, and do 15 Chablis-

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Ray Isle:
... you know, three different vintages from five different producers. So that's a sommelier event that's also in there. So it's- it's- it's both a consumer event and a trade event. I mean it's really a consumer event, but there are so many trade people and so many winemakers and wine buyers and sommeliers, and so on, that it- that it's- it's kind of two worlds over- overlapping; which is, um, which is fun.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, it's amazing. It's a great event.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
You know, I haven't been in a few years, but I used to go. I used to be on panels with-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... you know, Danny Meyer. I think one time we wanted to, what- what wine goes best with bacon, you know-

Ray Isle:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
... he'd create fun things. Kind of fun and loony things, but they were really cool.

Ray Isle:
Well, they're really cool.

Doug Shafer:
It was really fascinating.

Ray Isle:
And they're- and you can do a lot with a basic taste... I mean, I- I do a taste... I haven't done it in Aspen, but I do a- a potato chip and wine tasting, because-

Doug Shafer:
Aha (laughs).

Ray Isle:
... because with... Kettle chips is what I've done it with in the past, but if you get the- the basic Kettle chips, and then you get the salt and pepper ones, which are- have pepper on them-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... and you get barbecue, which is sweet, and you get the vinegar and whatever-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Ray Isle:
... which is sour, those chips actually work as a really great baseline, what flavors do to your palate and how they affect wine, thing. But it's really fun at the same time.

Doug Shafer:
It's fun.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
But at the same time it's, like, "Oh, this makes sense."

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
So if people wanted to... 'cause some folks might not know about the Aspen festival.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
How- how can they sign up?

Ray Isle:
Um, go to foodandwine.com-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Ray Isle:
... um, and- or- or actually just Google, you know, f- Food and Wine-

Doug Shafer:
Food and-

Ray Isle:
... ah, Classic in Aspen. That's- that's

Doug Shafer:
It's- that's the-

Ray Isle:
... and it'll- it'll... I mean, Google's like that, it'll just pull it right up.

Doug Shafer:
Well, it'll find ya.

Ray Isle:
Yeah. And it's always in June. It's, ah, it's the third weekend in June I think, so it's- it's Father... the same weekend as Fathers' Day.

Doug Shafer:
As Fathers' Day.

Ray Isle:
And it's Thursday through Sunday. You know, Thursday night through Sunday morning.

Doug Shafer:
Great.

Ray Isle:
And, um, and tickets go on sale... Oh, I think they go on sale in January?

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I think they're out the first of the year.

Ray Isle:
And it does sell out-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... but it's- but it is a blast, right?

Doug Shafer:
It's a- it's a great experience.

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And Aspen in June, just can't beat it.

Ray Isle:
Aspen in June. I mean, I always build in a couple of days to go hiking, you know, on either side 'cause-

Doug Shafer:
I was gonna ask you that, too. With all this wine stuff-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... and you've got food stuff-

Ray Isle:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... and you're traveling, oh, how do you get away? What do you do? What- what's- what do you do for fun?

Ray Isle:
Um-

Doug Shafer:
You got anything?

Ray Isle:
Yeah, well I mean, I'm- I'm in the incredibly fortunate position that- that the thing that I do is also something I love.

Doug Shafer:
Mm.

Ray Isle:
So, um, it is fun. I mean, what I do is fun. But, you know, it's-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... it's- it's great fun to write about wine, and- and I- a lot of my best friends are people that I know through the business I'm in, you know. Um, I go to the gym so I don't fall over, you know, dead (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) That's-

Ray Isle:
I mean, it's- the job has made me rounder than I once was, that's for sure.

Doug Shafer:
That's a risk of our job, for sure.

Ray Isle:
Yeah. Um, you know I- I still maintain a c- connection to literature; I have a lot of friends who are writers-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Ray Isle:
... and- and I- and I certainly read a ton, and I love to travel. But honestly, most of the travel I do is- is tied to wine to some degree-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ray Isle:
... but, you know, but I mean who can complain about going to Tuscany or going to-

Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah.

Ray Isle:
... you know, Galicia in Spain. Um-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, got some free time.

Ray Isle:
Yeah. Um-

Doug Shafer:
I'm with ya. Good.

Ray Isle:
So.

Doug Shafer:
Mister Ray Isle-

Ray Isle:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... thanks for being here. If you don't know this guy, grab a copy of Food and Wine Magazine and look up his name, and reads- read what he writes. He's, ah-

Ray Isle:
Absolutely.

Doug Shafer:
... he knows his stuff, so thanks for coming in.

Ray Isle:
Oh, thanks for having me, Doug. It was great to see you (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
All right. Be good. Thanks.

Ray Isle:
Okay.