Michael Silacci

Full Transcript

Doug Shafer:
Welcome back everybody to The Taste. This is Doug Shafer, and today we've got a great guest on. He's a longtime winemaker, I think over 20 years at Opus One Winery, Michael Silacci. He, uh, used to be my neighbor here when he made wine at Stag's Leap Wine Cellars in the mid-90s, but he, he left. He went to Oakville, to Opus and now I don't see him anymore because Oakville is really far away from Stag's Leap. So, uh, good to have him on. And, uh, Michael, welcome, welcome.

Michael Silacci:
Thank you very much, Doug. It's, uh, we spoke about this a while ago and I'm glad. I've always wanted to do it, and it just seemed we never had the, we never would able to, were able to synchronize our calendars, but this is fantastic.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Michael Silacci:
Good to hear your voice.

Doug Shafer:
You too, man. You too. And, uh, things are getting better out there in the world. So, uh, we'll be able to go have lunch together soon. I'm looking forward to that (laughs).

Michael Silacci:
Exactly.

Doug Shafer:
So anyway, got a lot to cover with you. There's your story, there's the Opus One story, but before all that let's go all the way back to the beginning. You know, where did you come from? Talk to me.

Michael Silacci:
I was born in Gilroy, California at the Wheeler Hospital at 2:53 in the morning on July 6, 1953.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
(laughs) So, so I'm a moon child.

Doug Shafer:
Got it.

Michael Silacci:
So I grew up in Gilroy. We, uh, lived a little bit in Morgan Hill, which is not, yeah, just on the edge of the sticks. Um, and uh, basically my formative years, I grew up on, um, my grandfather's dairy farm and we had, my grandparents both sets live close to each other.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
And so I had one pair of grandparents that had plum orchard in a dehydrator. And to this day, I just loved the, uh, smell of prunes and the other, um, it was just my grandfather, he had a dairy farm, you know, and when I smell a Brettanomyces wine, I kinda like it. (laughs) But, um-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs). We're all products of our early educations for sure.

Michael Silacci:
We are. And then the, uh, third smell in the neighborhood was when I drove forklift at the, uh, at the local garlic and onion plant, uh-

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Michael Silacci:
... on the graveyard shifts. So, um, I got exposed to those types of aromas fairly early.

Doug Shafer:
You were a farm boy, you work on the, work in, in ranches and farms. Yeah?

Michael Silacci:
Yeah, yeah. And a shit kicker because you know, we'd walk down the, uh, the pasture, um, between the levees and we, that's how we fertilized. We just kick the cow pies and let the water take them around and, you know, spread it out and fertilize. So yeah, I've done it. Uh, (laughing) my boots have seen ... the bottom of my boots have seen many things.

Doug Shafer:
I love it. I love it.

Michael Silacci:
But no necks, no necks.

Doug Shafer:
Very go- Yeah, yeah. So, uh, growing up in the country, kind of the country, the sticks. And, uh, how about high school? What were you into?

Michael Silacci:
Uh, Gilroy High School, I played football. I took, uh, Latin, I took the first year of Latin knowing that the program would be discontinued, but I still wanted to start learning Latin. And then I switched to, um, uh, to German and, uh, I r- I really enjoyed school. Uh, I was, uh, in student council and just had a lot of fun and playing, you know, playing football, lots of, you know, of course you hanging out with all your friends there. But I didn't, in all of my school years, I never like was in a clique. I was, uh, like a hummingbird of cliques. I'd go from one clique to the other and just try to be friends with, uh, is- with everybody, um, 'cause I didn't wanna get, you know, I didn't wanna fall into a, a group mentality. Um-

Doug Shafer:
But I, I got to ask you, I gotta stop you for a minute because anytime I've ever heard anyone speak about Latin or taking Latin, it was just like, "Oh, I had to take it. It was a requirement, oh, I don't want to do it." So you actually, I, I got to ask you, why did you want to take Latin?

Michael Silacci:
Because it's the root of, uh, so many romance languages.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Michael Silacci:
And uh, and you can understand with Greek or Latin, the meanings of many words without having to look them up in, uh, in the dictionary or now Google. That's why, that's why I took it.

Doug Shafer:
Well, it just shows that you were kind of tuned in because, um, I certainly wouldn't have been in that head space at all. So it kind of, I think that kind of leads into my next question because what happened after high school?

Michael Silacci:
Well, I didn't, uh, I was accepted at UC Santa Cruz and I decided I didn't want to go to university until I found what I wanted to be when I grew up. So I worked, um, at my, with my grandfather, I worked, um, at a local, uh, clothing store. I drove a Pepsi-Cola truck, delivering, um, cartoon glasses to Taco Bells. Um, I worked for Pepsi-Cola for a while and then I, um, decided that I was going to travel and I wasn't coming home until I found what I wanted to do in life. So I headed out to Japan.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
I stopped in, stopped in Hawaii Honolulu for just a, it was gonna be a weekend. So we went to, we went to Maui and, um, camped on a beach north of Kaanapali Beach Resort for three months and I didn't want to spend any money. So I got a job, busing tables and washing, uh, dishes at the Sea Scoop Restaurant in the Kaanapali, Kaanapali, uh, Village Resort or Village. \ And, and I hadn't been to Maui forever in a day. And I was with Steve Palumbo who's our, was, was our West Coast sales manager. Um, and we went to do an event. I, I think it was, I think it was a Ritz-Carlton.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
And I said, "Hey, can I borrow the car?"

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
And I th- I think that that resort was built on the area that I actually lived on the beach. And s- so I had come back. I had closed yet another circle.

Doug Shafer:
You, you closed the circle, but so what, what year are we talking about when you're out, out of high school?

Michael Silacci:
I graduated in 1971 and this was in '75 when I left.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
And then ended up in Japan. And-

Doug Shafer:
But I got, I gotta stop you 'cause camping on, camping on- I'm just cur- I'm curious from my own ... I'm just curious. You're camping on the beach for three and a half months. How do you do that? Like, well today, maybe you couldn't do it today, but as far as, you know, legally, safety, you know, that type of thing. That was o- that was okay to do is what you're telling me.

Michael Silacci:
Yeah, but we did, uh, we did have to move once because there was a hepatitis outbreak nearby.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) oh.

Michael Silacci:
And so, you know, that whole area was being, you know, we were s- we were alone.

Doug Shafer:
Got it.

Michael Silacci:
There was just a few of us there. Um, and, uh, so we had to find another spot, but, uh, left shortly after that. (laughing) Also some Sunday, some Sundays we'd go to Hare Krishna, uh, events, you know, where you'd chant and have great, uh, um, vegetarian food. Um, anyway, so it was, it was fun.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Okay -

Michael Silacci:
Then I went from Hawaii to Japan in, uh, in winter time - I went to Japan because I wanted to go to a place where it would be very difficult to go home. For example, let's say you go somewhere and you know how, when you first start something, um, a trip or university or whatever, you kind of you're, you're not really secure about it and, and you can easily just give up on it.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
So I wanted to go to a place that would be difficult for me to get home 'cause I had a one-way ticket if I didn't like it, or if I panicked or whatever. And I fell in love with it. I, (laughs) so I arrive on a night flight, I mean, late afternoon flight. And I showed the information booth people, the, the, um, um, what do you call it? The youth hostel-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
... where I wanted to stay. And so they wrote down instructions for me, and then they called somebody over and had that person get me to, uh, the first subway. And then, then they, they got somebody to get me off at the next stop to get me on the next s- I was passed off like a baton-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
... from person to person. I arrive in the, the final subway stop in the, the police booth. They showed me how to ... I had to walk across this big park ... uh, which you'd never ... I did once in, almost did once in New York city, uh, which was foolish - at really late at night, but I, this was not a dangerous park. I ended up at the youth hostel like 9:59. And if I were to have arrived at 10:01, they would not let me in.

Doug Shafer:
Oh wow.

Michael Silacci:
They were very strict. So stayed there and then, uh, wanted to go to Kyoto to see the temples. And, um, so they, (laughs), so they pu- they put me ... I go to the train station to get a ticket and they put me on the Shinkansen which is the fast bullet train.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
I had no idea I get on this train 'cause I had never been on a train before, other than, you know, like Santa Cruz, you know, where you go through the redwoods-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
... big basin or whatever. So I get on this train and holy smokes, hold onto your hat and get your seatbelt on. Cuz, it was ... I think it was the fastest train in the world at that time. The French with the TGV were always competing with the Japanese to have the fastest train in the world. Um, so then arriving in, in Kyoto and also I had known about the Shinkansen because my grandfather was really into stuff like that. And he always said, "Look at this bullet train," and, and, uh, and so I got to write a postcard telling him that I had been on the Shinkansen, excuse me. And stayed in this, um, uh, place called Tawny House. It was a t- Tommy Matt, um, private hostel-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
... and I just went back to work. And, uh, no, I went back on vacation, uh, last week of February, first week of March in 2020 ... and went to see the Tawny House just to, just to compare, you know, places where you've stayed. Um, and then from there, um, I went back to Tokyo. Um, my sister had gone elsewhere. Uh, we split up and then she was going to Tokyo so I went to meet her in Tokyo and in the youth hostel, there was a French woman. And my sister said, "Yeah, there's this French woman just wearing clogs with no socks." And s-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
And so I went over and, and she was w- I was talking to her and I said, "Do you know where the French woman is without any socks?" Because she spoke perfect English. And she said, "Well, I'm French and I don't have any socks."

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
And so I, I gave her my favorite pair of green socks. And, and then I headed off to ... where did I go, Taiwan in, uh, then Taiwan and then Philippines ... and bumped into her by chance in a market in the Philippines. So my sister saw a Canadian woman who we had met named Ellen, and she, Debbie said, "Ellen." And then Ellen said, "Debbie." And I said, "Rashaan." And she said, "Michael."

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
And, um, so anyway, we had, uh, we were in ... every, every country that I visited, I stayed the maximum, uh, for a visa. If I had three months, I'd stay three months. But then-

Doug Shafer:
So you were tra- you were traveling, uh, so you're traveling, just going to different countries. So what'd you do about money? Were you working, um, how, how'd that work out?

Michael Silacci:
No, I saved up money.

Doug Shafer:
You sa- okay, so you just traveling.

Michael Silacci:
And, yeah. And, and, uh, for example, the most expensive place I would have been was Japan ... but I had actually made more money than I, uh, needed to live in, in Hawaii. So I had that money-

Doug Shafer:
Great.

Michael Silacci:
... uh, of course, camping on the beach (laughs) what are you going to spend money on it.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah (laughs), right.

Michael Silacci:
Um, and, nd then, um, eventually made my way to, um, to Europe went to Locarno, near Locarno ... Olive Rosasco where my grandfather was from. All my grandparents came from, uh, this was, uh, the Italian part of Switzerland.

Doug Shafer:
So I, on all your travels, I gotta ask you this at some point. Um, was had the wine thing kicked in? Was that part of your traveling experience? Were you drinking wine? Were you drinking beer? I'm just kind of curious, 'cause you're in your early to mid-20s at this point. So I'm just curious about that.

Michael Silacci:
Yes. So, beer in Japan, uh, along with Sake and then in, uh, I’ll never forget this island, the Chocolate Hills are Sa- was it Saber or the Chocolate Hills? Where, y- 'cause we ha- San Miguel Beer was amazing and it was only f- you know, like five cents ... a bottle. Had some Thai beer also in Thailand, but basically it was beer, but I had, um, been turned on or my grandfather always drank wine.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Michael Silacci:
And so I drank wine with him and we would go to, uh, Peter Scaglione's winery out on the Hecker pass. My grandfather (laughs), he always had a white Cadillac. He had, uh, uh, four gallon jugs in the back of his car in a cardboard box. So we go and he w- Peter, Mr. Scaglione would s- would siphon wine and fill up his jugs and they would have a glass of wine and tell dirty jokes. And then we get back in the car and go home.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
And we'd have a, (laughs) a- and so I had a little bit of wine with him every now and again.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
And then the first bottle of one ever purchased was, um, uh, 1974, I think, a ‘74 Robert Mondavi Reserve. And that was $7.50 and everyone thought I was crazy for spending that much money on a bottle of wine. So I li- I liked wine.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
So anyway, fast forward to when I arrive in France, I knock on the door of the woman who I had met, who I had given these green socks to and, in Paris and she, and the only French I knew was bon voyage.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
And she said, if you want learn to speak French, eat well and earn money, you should pick grapes.

Doug Shafer:
Ah.

Michael Silacci:
So I got, got a haircut borrowed, a car, went to Nault and drove out in the countryside of Nault and drove into this little domain, this courtyard. And there was a fellow named George loading, loading sacks of sugar into the back of a little van. And I (laughs) said to him, 'cause I had practiced all the way down like a good Californian or a good Hare Krishna, "I want a job picking grapes. I want a job picking grapes." So I-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
I said to him, bonjour, I want a job picking grapes."

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
And he smiled because he had figured that that's probably all this kid knows. He said, he made me understand that if I helped him finish loading the van with, uh, the sacks of sugar, he would find a job for me because he w- he had had a full team. So we, um, went and delivered the sugar, and then he takes me over to, uh, Domaine du Grand Mouton, uh, which is Louis Metaireau's property. And I got a job there. And so I didn't speak any French, but it was like working at McDonald's if you don't read English. You just look at the pictures and press the, you know, the big Mac or whatever. And so I would just look at what other people were doing and at the end of the rows ... and it's funny, um, even though it's more of a social democracy there (laughs), you get to the end of the rows. You know, here when people are picking ... because they, they pick as a team-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
... they, when somebody finishes their row, they'll come back and help their neighbor, their neighboring row, right? There, social democracy I think at the end of the row, they have a glass of wine from the vet, and you're on your own to get to that end of the row, because you're picking, picking as a team, all right? The whole country of France, because you're all being paid the same, no matter what you do (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Okay. That's true.

Michael Silacci:
And then I would, um, follow people when they usually tell me it's time for lunch and we'd go inside. And Doug, I fell in love with two hour lunches and wine. And that's where-

Doug Shafer:
Oh, so that's where it hits.

Michael Silacci:
That's, that's where it hit.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, wow.

Michael Silacci:
And I'll never forget the time where I, where, when we went to pick at one of the reserve blocks, right adjacent to, uh, Mr. Metaireau's house. And (laughs) he came outside and he, we're all standing around the, at the end of the rows and he looks left and he looks right and he says, he asks, "Where's the Buvette?" And the foreman was trying to get away because he had forgotten to bring the Buvette. Buvette is just a little like wheelbarrow with all the wine and water. And he had to confess that he had forgotten it.

Doug Shafer:
Oh.

Michael Silacci:
Mr. Metaireau runs into his house and comes out with bottles of his reserve cerlie, um, uh, Muscadet which, you know, this is not an expensive wine, but it was so hot that day Doug and I was so thirsty, we just passed it around-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Michael Silacci:
... drinking out of the bottle and it was the most del- 'cause it's just a fine, fine, fine effervescence. It was just the most delicious thing I've ever tasted in my life. So that's where I really ... that's where I got the, uh, uh, the bug. And what I wanted to do is I wanted ... I had read about, uh, the Compagnon which is a, a group, it's like a tradesman group, craftsman a trades group in the middle ages in France, and they worked with wood. And they would, um, they would go to one area to learn how to make, let's say wooden chairs. And then they would work during the day as an apprentice and study at night under a c- with a candle light, candle light.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
And they would be there for about six months. And then they'd go to the next area of France and they would do a tour de France, a tour of France, sorry.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
And they would go to each area learning how to make d- work with wood in a different way.

Doug Shafer:
Huh.

Michael Silacci:
And I thought, that's what I wanna do. Um, in Muscadet, I want to go to Bordeaux and then I wanna, uh, they I wanna go to, um ... I actually worked in Cognac as well.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Michael Silacci:
Then I wanna go to south ... I wanted to do a tour of France, learning how to make wine. But I realized very quickly that although I have an I at the end of my name, Silacci ... it's not, my name is not Mondavi, nor is it Winarski. (laughing) So I had an absolutely no contacts. And, and so, um, I thought the next best thing would be to go to, uh, uh, to school. But I, um, traveled a l- uh, traveled a lot there on bicycle, uh, worked, doing, making, um, doing, making decorations for Estee Lauder and Lancaster and, uh, Revlon. Um, I worked for a company called Garlin, uh, 01. It was a commune. The thing that we did that was the most fun and exciting was we were going to do something for Estee Lauder when they, um, brought out the Orient Express line of-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Michael Silacci:
So we went to the, um, the, um, train yard in Paris, where they had all the antiques. And these, you know, all the workers in, in France, they wear these blue coveralls. And so we told them we wanted to talk to them about that. And they just put, brushes said, "No, no, no, you know, no, no, no, you know, we don't know what you're talking about." So we just stuck with them. And what did the trick was when I agreed to, to have a shot of their homemade, um, of spirits. And I'm just praying that there's, this is not methanol city. And knocked back a couple and we were in like Flint. We could have whatever we wanted.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
So we built these for three, in three different perfume, perfumeries in Paris, you'd walk by and you look into the big window and you would be looking into a cabin of the orange express, like the dining car or a sleeper car. It was, it was so much fun doing that. What was also fun is that I would always get help from the staff in a perfume shop, especially when I went on my own, because I had an accent, I was alone and they felt, and I, and I gave that puppy dog look in my, from my eyes. And they'd all helped me out. Whereas when I was with the French guys, they would just be told off, or, you know, don't park in the front of the ... you know, they'd be, they'd be kind of, uh, not very pleasant with them. So, um, they often sent me alone (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) That's great. So you're, so you're doing everything. And, um, so when did you ... was this point your heading home? Is that what the next step was?

Michael Silacci:
Uh, almost. I rode, um, we r- I rode bicycle to Corsica and back up to Paris and then from Paris to Stockholm and back to Paris. And then, um, I went in, I did. We did one more trip. We rode bicycle to the middle, middle of the Sahara Desert and back out.

Doug Shafer:
Hm, wow.

Michael Silacci:
And then I went to, um, came home and I, so I got (laughs), I brought a ... my mom had this old car sitting in the, in, in the yard for, um, you know, as an extra car for people like me-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
... the pro- the prodigal son. And, uh, said, "Take this car," I'm going to Davis 'cause I'm going to, I want to go to school at Davis. And, um, the car breaks down in Dixon.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
And it was when it, when it ... you remember, like -

Doug Shafer:
Just eight mi- eight, yeah, eight miles away or something like that. Yeah.

Michael Silacci:
And the air was filled yet with another rumor of that of a slaughter house.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
Um, and so get the, it was a fuel pump that went out, had it fixed. So (laughs) I go to the admissions office, stand in line and, and I get my turn and the woman said, "Yes, what can I help you with?" And I, I asked her, "Well, when does the next quarter start?" And she said, "Um, in f- in four weeks or five weeks, whatever it was."

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
And I said, "Great, I wanna come." And she didn't know what to say, um, 'cause I, you know, I'd f- I hadn't been out of school, you know, I didn't really think about these things. And she said, "But I, I, you can't just come.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
You have to fill out an application and, you know, the earliest you could come would be, you know, the quarter after this one." And, and so I, um, I said, okay, but it's the best thing that ever happened to me because I did get a reality check.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Michael Silacci:
Um, and I went to s- I went to, I, I hadn't been in s- in school for a few years. So I went to City College of San Francisco ... and I took typing, library science, um, chemistry, uh, trigonometry, uh, and something else, French I think. I had a full load, but I learned everything I needed to, to the infrastructure, the mental infrastructure, you know, gotta know how to type-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
... gotta know how to use the library. And then I went to school at Davis.

Doug Shafer:
So I gotta stop you. So this is great. So you're probably what, how old are you at this point? Mid 20s?

Michael Silacci:
I was 20. I was, that would have been in 1983. I was close to 30. I was, yeah, I was 30.

Doug Shafer:
Got it. Okay. Okay. And so you've been, you've been traveling for years-

Michael Silacci:
Yup.

Doug Shafer:
... for three or four or five years, and you promised yourself, you weren't gonna go to college until you figured out what you were gonna do and you left on your worldwide travels. Um, and so when you came back w- where you ca- you came back, were focused on I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be a winemaker. Was that, was that the deal?

Michael Silacci:
Well, according to Corneo, Dr. O, and Dr. Singleton and Dr. Dr. Kunky, um, I had blurred vision-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Michael Silacci:
... because I told them I want to have a degree in viticulture and enology. And they said ... they chuckled. They said, "No, no, no, you can't do that. You have to ch-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I remember that.

Michael Silacci:
... you have, you have to choose one or the other." And I said, "Well, why?" And I said, "In France, they do it." And they said, "This isn't in France, son." And so I, so I chose enology.

Doug Shafer:
That's funny.

Michael Silacci:
And, but, but what I did, Doug, is I took all of the classes, 'cause I was so motivated. I didn't have to deal with the social, uh, stuff. Uh, I was really motivated on getting a degree. And so I took all the classes that were prerequisites for graduate work, because I felt I'm going to do, take my, what I have to take anyway. I'm gonna take the harder chemistry, the harder physics, et cetera, whatever I need to get into graduate school so I don't have to - because you'd ha- you'd take the, the ... if you didn't plan, you'd have to take the m- you'd have to take the higher, the harder, the upper division course, um, um, again.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
So I didn't, I didn't wanna do that. So then I, um, went to ... I decided I was gonna go. I went, went into plant science too, because I wanted to be a viticulturist. I wanted to have that side. I wanted to have ... I had my degree in ... actually I have, I have to sidestep for a second. I did my general ed at Davis, and then I took, a, a PELP. Uh, PELP is, um, Planned, Planned Educational Leave something. Program. So I, after my general ed, I went to the University of, University of Bordeaux and the Institute of Oenology and I got a degree in, it was like, uh, just in oenology.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Michael Silacci:
Uh, and then came and did an internship with Denis Dubourdieu, and, uh, so it was all white wine, some reds. And then also worked a little bit ... didn't really work. I can't say I did an internship at Doisy Daëne but I was exposed to, uh, Barsac Sauterne with his, his father. So (laughs) his ... yeah.

Doug Shafer:
So what was, w- so you jumped over to Bordeaux b- so that just, you just wanted to get as much exposure to different things as you could is what I'm guessing.

Michael Silacci:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Michael Silacci:
And the other thing was, uh, the, the green socks girl. U, she-

Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah (laughs). Whatever happened to her?

Michael Silacci:
Well, we eventually got married.

Doug Shafer:
Oh (laughs).

Michael Silacci:
And we had, we had, uh, we have a daughter. We're no longer together, um-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Michael Silacci:
... uh, but you know, that those things happen.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
So anyway, she said, "I'm, I don't wanna, I need to go home for a little bit."

Doug Shafer:
I see.

Michael Silacci:
And, um, I mean, she was tired of ... she was bored with California. And so, uh, we went to France and she taught English and I went to school.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Michael Silacci:
So Pierre Dubourdieu (laughs), his son is a professor at, at the University of Bordeaux and he knew I had just finished classes there. He was, he was like, it was perfect. He said, we said, "Let's go check the temperatures of the fermentations."

Doug Shafer:
Right (laughs).

Michael Silacci:
We go into the ta- (laughs) we go into the tank room, he put his hand against the tank and f- (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) I've done that. I do that all the time, you know.

Michael Silacci:
Yeah. But he would not even look at the temperature. Then he's doing this to a kid who just got out of college right?

Doug Shafer:
Right (laughs).

Michael Silacci:
Or was in midstream. And then he'd say, "Well, we got to chill this down a little bit," but he did everything.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's great.

Michael Silacci:
Just, it was fantastic. And it, and it was great to be exposed to that. Anyway, I just thought it was hilarious because-

Doug Shafer:
No excuse.

Michael Silacci:
... his son was doing all of these experiments at his winery and his father's t- feelings tanks to see if the fermentation temperatures correct. So-

Doug Shafer:
Well, I, you know, I'm, I get that. I think that's pretty cool.

Michael Silacci:
Yeah, yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And you know, and you do too at this stage, you know, we all, we're all kinda tuned in that way.

Michael Silacci:
Exactly.

Doug Shafer:
You know, it's a lot of feel, a lot of gut feel.

Michael Silacci:
Yeah. The, the best thing you can put, uh, in, in your vineyard or in your cellar are your own two feet.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). There you go. Look at you. You have to put that one on a wall somewhere. So cool. So you're Davis Bordeaux, and then you're back to Davis. Is that how it worked?

Michael Silacci:
Yeah. Went back to Davis, finished my undergraduate degree in enology fermentation science. And then I, um, spent a year. Um, I only had to be in, in, uh, class and doing my experiment for one year because I had gotten so many prerequisites out of the way. And I was with, uh, uh, Janice Morrison. And she was, uh, she was very proud that her first student master student had to rewrite his a- they passed his thesis back and forth like a ping pong golf eight times.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Michael Silacci:
So I had, I had, uh, applied for and gotten a position at Beaulieu Vineyard ... as enologist/viticulturist. And Tony Bell, uh, you learn a lot during interviews because first interview I show up and, uh, it's about a good half an hour, 40 minutes before I actually get into the interview with, with Tony and I think Joel. Joel, I think Joel was at the first, maybe that was the second one.

Doug Shafer:
Was Joel there?

Michael Silacci:
Yeah, Joel-

Doug Shafer:
Joel was there. Was he winemaker there at that point?

Michael Silacci:
Uh, yes. That was-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Michael Silacci:
Uh, yes, he, I think he was winemaker in '85 if I, if I remember correctly.

Doug Shafer:
Got it. Yeah. He and I were, uh, he and I were classmates at Davis, so he, we go way back.

Michael Silacci:
So, um, my third interview, it was like sitting in the little antechamber waiting room for about an hour and a half. And, and then I go into the conference room and it's Tony, Joel and, um, Tom Selfridge.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Michael Silacci:
And Tom Selfridge said, "You know, you realize that you're going to be reporting to Tony and you're working with Joel too. And you know, you're not going anywhere. You're in an enologist, viticulturist. You're not gonna like move, be moving up the food chain anytime soon, because this winery was founded in 1900 and, um ..." on and on. I said, "Yeah, I understand."

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) That's en- en- encouraging too. Yeah (laughs).

Michael Silacci:
Yeah. But I said, "This is perfect because I want to be at a place where I can really start to understand how things go."

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
And Joel is, was such a great, uh, mentor and teacher. Um, so I was good with that, but, uh, a year and, a year and a half later, I was, uh, in the role of production manager, and I was overseeing, um, grower relations. I think I was ... yeah, grower relations and, um, the ... crew and bottling, uh, and experimental winemaking. And then a year after that, I, um, they formed the Heublein ... and I was working also with Tony. We were doing a lot with Inglenook as well. So, um, then a year after that I bec- um, Heublein and Fine Wine, Wine Group was formed. So it was Quail Ridge, Christian Brothers, um, Inglenook and, uh, Beaulieu.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
And I became viticulturist for the Heublein Wine, Fine, Fine Wine Group. And, um, I worked with, uh, five different winemakers, five different vineyard management companies and 85 grape growers. We owned, leased-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
... or worked with 4,000 acres of Napa Valley vineyard. And I did not have an administrative assistant.

Doug Shafer:
No way. You know, you've always been the nicest guy and the easiest to get along with and now I know why.

Michael Silacci:
(laughs).

Doug Shafer:
I mean, God, Michael, that must've been crazy. Think about all this stuff, especially like at harvest when everybody wants this and that, and it's gotta be this way and this guy wants it this way, this guy wants it another way. Oh, how'd you keep it straight?

Michael Silacci:
Well, I learned an invaluable skill and that is to convince other people that was in their best interest to help you accomplish something. And I, I became very good at that.

Doug Shafer:
Huh.

Michael Silacci:
Uh, so good at it that when I g- (laughs), my first, uh, when I first arrived at Opus, um, I was told ... actually, I had seven interviews to get here, but that's a whole nother story. But my first, uh, time, when I first arrived at Opus, um, a woman, a Swiss woman named Uno Shard came to my office. She was really buttoned up like all Swiss are, no smile, walked into my office and reminded me that I was responsible for three, uh, events. The, um, Cinco de Mayo because they started on March 5th, 2001. So Cinco de Mayo was coming up, the Harvest Party and the Blessing of the Grapes. I said, "Yes, that's great. Yes." She said, "But you know, Cinco de Mayo is coming, you need to plan that." And I said, "Okay, well, why don't you sit down?" "No, I don't wanna sit down." And finally, I got her to sit down.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
So I don't know, maybe half an hour later or so she leaves my office and with a big smile on her face, goes out the door and they're like French doors so I can see her. And then I see her stop dead in her tracks and the smile goes away and she gets a furrowed brow. She comes back into my office and she says, "Michael, I came here telling you everything that you need to do for the Cinco de Mayo party. And I'm leaving doing everything." And I looked at her and I said, "Well, yes, of course you are. I'm paid to manipulate people and make them feel good about it." So (laughs)-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Look at you. Oh.

Michael Silacci:
I did, I did. But of course I worked with her.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Michael Silacci:
I mean, but, but it was, it was just, but that's what I learned. I mean, you in, uh, you know, like working at, in that, as a viticulturist at, with that group, that's what I had to learn, how to do.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). You bet. And you got to work with, uh, Andre, right?

Michael Silacci:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
Andre Tchelistcheff. Tell us, tell us about that 'cause his a, his name comes up quite often and he's, you know, wonderful, wonderful man and wonderful part of, you know, fine wine in Napa Valley. You got to work with him. Tell us about that.

Michael Silacci:
Well, I first met him. I mean, I first saw him. I never really met him until, um, till I was at Beaulieu, but, um, he, he was talking at Davis and he was just amazing. Um, the intensity, the passion, the focus. So then, uh, they told me that they had Ron Vitori, they had hired Andre as a, as a consultant and he was going to spend half a day in the vineyard every week and half a day, uh, at Beaulieu with the, with the winemaking team. So, um, I meet him at the Chile's house at Inglenook and he's sitting at one end of the table, I'm at the other and the room is ... we're, I mean, we're all sitting or I just happened to be seen at the other end of the table and they introduced me to him. Uh, and he said, "I'm looking forward to you taking me to your kingdom and exploring your kingdom with you."

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Oh, wow. No pressure.

Michael Silacci:
And, and so the f- so the first couple of times we went out to the vineyard and he always ... I would pick him up at his house and he and I would have biscotti, uh, and coffee that Dorothy would prepare this and she would sit with us. And we would talk, the two of us would talk about what we would do together to make Beaulieu great again. And then we go off to start always at his favorite vineyard BV-5, which is, um, a vineyard in Carneros with Pinot and different clones. And actually the very, um, I was told that, uh, Andre was not ... we had a ... I'm sorry, I'm jumping around, but I have to give you some context. In To Kalon uh, Beckstoffer To Kalon, there was a, 10 acres strip on the w- on the east side. It's a beautiful, probably the best part of that vineyard that we had 14 different Cabernet clones randomly, in a randomized design pattern, eight different replicates of each. And we would make the wine in this room we called the clone room with, uh, olive oil d- in olive oil, plastic, olive oil drums. And so I was told, do not take Andre to ... Don't ever do anything with him, with the, with the, with the wine. Don't tell him, don't talk to him about the clone room drum, blah, blah, blah. And part of it was they ... I don't know why they wanted to keep him out of it, but they use the excuse that his son Dimitri's working with us on that and they don't want any conflicts. So San Francisco Chronicle wants to do an article on Andre coming back to Beaulieu. So (laughs) where do we get the picture taken? In the vineyard with all the clone wine, with all the clones.

Doug Shafer:
Oh know.

Michael Silacci:
And he, of course, he s- he starts talking to me about it. And so one day when I, um, when I, uh ... well, I'm gonna go back to this pickup story. We're in the vineyard, uh, and the third time, you know, he'd, we'd be driving around and he'd be telling me, this is amazing what you're doing. And just patting me on the back and telling me how great, you know, the vineyards look, et cetera. Third visit, we're in B-V5 and I stopped, turned off the pickup, and I looked at him and I said, "I think that they're paying you a lot of money, not to tell me what I'm doing that's great. But to tell me where I can improve and what's wrong with what I'm doing." He said, "Well, what do you mean?" And I said, "Well, all you're doing is telling me nice things. And I think you're supposed to critique my work, not, you know, tell me all the good side." And so he said, "And that's what you want me to do?" And I said, "Yes." And he said, "And we'll be, will, will you promise me that we, we will still be friends at the end of every session?" (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) 

Michael Silacci:
And I said, "Yes." And he reached his hand out and we shook hands and he said, "I will do that." (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
Oh man.

Michael Silacci:
So I don't know if you remember, um, um ... that Dustin Hoffman f- Little Big Man.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
When he meets, uh, Custer and he tells Custer, Custer our general George Custer. "Should I go down there?" Mule, mule skinner, he said, "If you go down there, you will be, um, uh, massacred." And he said, "So the mule skinner thinks that if he tells me, blah, blah, blah." So he's trying to reverse logic to the guys, he goes-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Right.

Michael Silacci:
"Let's go down there." So he goes down and they get ambushed. So that's what it was like with Andre-

Doug Shafer:
Huh.

Michael Silacci:
... men- mentally. We'd go out and then he'd lead me down into the valley and then he'd bury me with criti- criticism (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
But, um, but one day we were walking, uh, he said, "Let's ..." Oh, so I asked if we could buy a, um, like an ATV. And I was told no because that would be an asset and everything was judged, um, by a return on asset.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
And so I said, well, but he can't walk very far and we just get barely to the edge of the vineyard.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Michael Silacci:
We'll just drive between the, in the avenues. Then I, and I said, "Well, how about ... can I rent one?" And he said, "Oh yeah, you can rent one." And he said, "But you realize that the rental just for one season will be more expensive than if we bought one."

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
It doesn't matter. It's not an asset. (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
Oh man.

Michael Silacci:
And so we c- we, um, Mike Walsh took it out and had it ready for us at, um, Carn- uh, Carneros Hills vineyard. And, um, we go out and I said," Andre, do you know what that is?" And he says, "No," it was one of those John Deere, um, ones with the two seats and the-

Doug Shafer:
Right, right.

Michael Silacci:
... the gator, I guess they call it.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Michael Silacci:
And he s- he said, "What is it?" And I said, "Well, most people would call that an, uh, ATV, Andre, but I call it an AVT." And he said, "Well, what is an ATV?" I said, "An uh, all-terrain vehicle." "Well, then what is an AVT?" And I said, "An Andre Victor Tchelistcheff mobile."

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
And we would go between the rows and he'd stop me, back it up, taste this, taste that. And, and we were in a Chardonnay block and he said, "Let's ..." We're tasting the fruit and then we, and then we were going up this hill and he said, "Stop. Did you notice a change in flavor?"

Doug Shafer:
Hm.

Michael Silacci:
I said, "Not really." We went, we backed up, went forward, backed up and went forward until I could find the place for the flavor change. And then he said, "Okay, now back up again." He said, "Just look ahead of you. Do you see anything that might indicate why the flavors were changing?" And I'm looking and I said, "Yes, the soil got lighter." And he said, "That's it." And he said, "Do you see any other area where it might change?" And I said, "Yes, up there almost just below the crest of the hill, where the soil is yet a third color." And he said, "Very good grasshopper."

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Michael Silacci:
And, uh, so (laughs), but he taught me how to, how to taste fruit to make harvest decisions.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Michael Silacci:
And it was eye-opening because, you know, when I first started, uh, in the industry, it, you know, we had those grape contracts and there were windows of, um, of ripeness. And if you were off a 10th of a degree, uh, like if you were anywhere, uh, right or left at 22, seven, I think was the number, um, you would be penalized. And so I th- he had opened my eyes up to this whole new world. And so I called, uh, Joel and them and I said, "Hey, can we pi-" He, actually Andre asked me. He said, "I know it's not a large amount." We defined an area that could be picked. He said, "Would you call and see if we can pick this?" So I called and they said, "Well, what is the sugars?" And I said, "It's this." And they said, "No, the sugars are too low." And I said, "But it tastes ... you know, come down and taste with us." They, they wouldn't, they were too busy to come and taste, they couldn't taste with us. Next time we're, we find this as in a, um, Pinot block where we had Cordon versus Cane, um, t-bar versus, uh, vertical. And we found one of the treatments that was perfect. Call again. Can we pick this? What's the sugar? 21, eight. You're crazy. There's no picking anything at 21. Well, come and taste it. And no.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
Third ti- third time's always a charm. Right? I went to, um, B-V1 right across the street from Beaulieu and the numbers were textbook perfect. And I said, "But the fruit's not ready. Just come out and look at it. It's got this purple-ish color that's just not quite ripe yet."

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
And they said, "No, we're, let's bring it in. The numbers are perfect." And then they saw it in the, in the gondolas and they said, "Okay." And they stopped. We'd picked half the block.

Michael Silacci:
But that was the first time where we made any headway, um, um, and Andre, one day, um, now going back to the clone trial, um, we're sitting at the house having this biscotti and coffee and he said, he asked me, "So how are the clone wines doing?" I s- and I said-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) He knew about them.

Michael Silacci:
Oh, he knew about them.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Michael Silacci:
I said, "Oh, they're, they're great." And then some, a thought came to mind and I, and I s- asked him, "Would you like to taste them?" And he, it was like, as if I said, 'cause he's in 14 different selections. Right?

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
It was as if I asked a child, "Do you wanna go taste all 31 flavors at Baskin Robbins?"

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Michael Silacci:
He, he was so excited. And why, why did I do that, Doug? Well, all the top brass was in Hartford Connecticut.

Doug Shafer:
Oh … yeah -

Michael Silacci:
All the-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, but what ab- what about Dimitri? He was his baby, right? Dimitri was-

Michael Silacci:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug Shafer:
Was it Dimitri everyone was, uh, Andre's son and he was the winemaker at the time at BV or was it, he was on the team I think.

Michael Silacci:
He, he w- he was a consultant for the-

Doug Shafer:
Consultant, okay.

Michael Silacci:
... the clone trial.

Doug Shafer:
Got it.

Michael Silacci:
And he, that guy's a fantastic ... was a fantastic taster. He'd tell me, I said, "How d-" he s- asked me, "Michael, do you wanna know how I make the final decisions on blends and s- whatever?" I said, "No, please tell me," 'cause he'd always say, "Well, I think this one's probably it." And then he'd say, "Well, I go take the, the glasses home, takes the samples home. And when I wake up in the morning and look at the table and see which one's empty or the lowest volume, that's the blend." (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) There you go.

Michael Silacci:
So, so I call ahead and I called Jeffrey Stambor. No, I called Linda Hanson, who was a, um, an intern at the time. I think she's at Hanzell now. Um, great person. Um, we used to have ice cream every Tuesdays after work. Anyway, I said, "Could you get all the clone wines and set it up in Lee Knoll’s old office? A place for four of us, you, me Jeffrey and, uh, uh, Andre."

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
So we go, we go to Lee Knoll’s old office and I said to Andre, "So these, this is the clonal trial. As I, as I explained to you before we were in the vineyard and the objective is to determine which one of these wines best fits George Latour Private Reserve." He said, "Okay." So we tastes through twice and then he gets my, and he whispers to me across (laughs). He said, "What was the objective?" And (laughing) I said, "The objective is to determine, which is the best suited for George Latour Private Reserve." So he tastes through a third time and he sits quietly waiting for us. And we, we finished tasting. And I said, uh, he asked me, "Would you like to know what I think?" I said, "Well, kind of the objective here, Andre." So (laughs)-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Michael Silacci:
So he say, "There's one on the table that I think is, would be perfect. And, um, it's got ..." he, he described it's, you know, beautiful concentration, uh, the, the intensity, um, the finished link to the finish, the, the fruit character, but mostly mouthfeel. He said, "But I think that the bean counters in Connecticut, won't, there's pro- the problem with this one. I think, I think it's probably yie- low yield and you won't be able to use it. It's this one that you have, it's the green one, the green clone." He said, "And then there's one that is not ... it's really good, but it, it is more restrained than this green one, but I think it's probably gonna be fine quantity and quality, uh, the yellow one." And he said, and (laughs) he said, "And this one over here, the red/black one, that's the one my son Dimitri likes the best." He was spot on.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Michael Silacci:
The green, the green clone was the Jackson clone, which, you know, has a problem with infertile pollen.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
So very low yields, but incredible wine. The yellow one was clone four, the one that came through Mendoza-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
... and is used quite a bit. And the third one was, N-ra, 5197. And it had a problem with stem pitting, but it was the one that he said Dimitri liked the best. But-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) No, he's good. He was great.

Michael Silacci:
Yeah, he was.

Doug Shafer:
That's a great one. So BV, I think you were there for two or three years, is that right?

Michael Silacci:
No, I was there for, I was there for, uh, li- over six.

Doug Shafer:
Over six years. My, my mistake. I apologize. And then, uh, and then you got hired away by my neighbor.

Michael Silacci:
I was be-

Doug Shafer:
Tell me about that one.

Michael Silacci:
No, no, no. There was an interim stop. Uh (laughs) You know, Andre said to me one, one morning, um, "There's a place that needs you in there and you need to be there. You need to be a winemaker. You can't be asking people to pick grapes and they don't want to do it. So, um, you're, you have, you're going to be a winemaker, but so you're going to that conference in, at the IPNC conference and you're going to see me there and I'm going to make eye contact with you. You're gonna come over. I'm gonna, going to introduce you to some people, and then you're gonna just say like "Hello," and then you're gonna say, "Well, it was very nice meeting you," and turn around and leave." (laughing) And so I did it. And then, uh, the next day I left for France, um, for three-week vacation. You remember those when you're able to do that?

Doug Shafer:
Uh-huh (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
Um, you probably can now, but um-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah. Not really (laughs) but carry on.

Michael Silacci:
Um, anyway, so, and I never, you know, never called in those days. And, and, uh, anyway, I did call in on the payphone and there were a slew of messages from Dorothy, "Please call Andre." And he said, "These people really want to meet you." And, and so when I came back, I went and interviewed at King Estate. And, um, I, I got the job.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's right. Up in, up in Oregon, right?

Michael Silacci:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Okay. Yeah.

Michael Silacci:
So I was there for a little over a year and a half, and then I came back and the good news was that, um, I, we had a house, we ha- we were just finishing up. Like we had built a house in St. Helena-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
And we were doing the, all the wood frames and staining them and sanding them. And, um, then, um, the bad news was, I didn't have a job, but I had gotten enough money to get me through, um, February. And so, um, I said, we finished working on the house and I said, "You know what? I need to get out of here because now's not the time to find a job." And so we, I said, "Let's go to Hawaii." We went to Hawaii for a month and every morning my daughter, we'd take ... uh, my daughter was just a, a little one.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
She was f- four or five. And we'd go into a, a place for breakfast and I'd say, "May I have a glass of orange juice, and a double order of bacon." (laughs) That's, and that w- that, 'cause she needed a ba- a piece of bacon in each hand. Um, and, uh, she'd bury me in the sand every day and just had an amazing time with her. Then I came back and I worked, um, uh, 50-hour work weeks doing informational interviews. I'd s- call somebody. And like I interviewed with Justin Meyer with, um, Corey Gott, uh Carrie Gott, um, Mike Fischer, Linda Pawson. Linda Pawson teaches, um, the, the executive speaking experience.

Michael Silacci:
So she'd say, "Well, why in the world would you want to interview with me?" I said, "I just, I bring my in- I bring my resume, resume. Once you look at it, I want to tell you what I've done and what I want to do, and just critique my resume." And my, you know, my, when I'm talking to, in my, in my presentation. And she said, "But why do you want to come and see me? I don't, I have nothing to do with these people." And I said, "You have eight students every month, at least. And who are they? (laughs) They're, they run wineries, they're winemakers. So you're gonna, at lunch when they're, when you overhear somebody saying, "I need a winemaker." You're gonna say, "Oh, I've got a resume for you (laughs)."

Doug Shafer:
There you go. Good moves.

Michael Silacci:
Mike Fischer, same thing. But I had the time doing that Doug because I saw, I could draw a caricature in my mind of a corporate owned winery, which I cut my teeth in, family-owned winery, which I experienced it as King Estate. All these different, you know, I saw the, the cultures. And then when I, um, uh, interviewed at Warren, with Warren, I had 10 interviews with Warren. The shortest was two hours. The longest was four.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Michael Silacci:
And I had, um, two take-home assignments. One was okay, take these, uh, this bottle of, um, reserve Chardonnay, this bottle of Sauvignon Blanc, and this Cask 23 home tonight, taste them and write a report on what you would, would have done during the growing season, harvest, um, blending, et cetera, to have made the wines better.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Michael Silacci:
Now that's, that's something you either just freak out at, or you just say, "This is gonna be fun," and have fun with it. And, and I did, and I got in trouble for it with him because, um, George Schaeffler had given me a bottle of, uh, Opus and I bought a bottle of Pahlmeyer because that was the, the hot Chardonnay at the time.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
And Sauvignon Blanc I had just gone through with, uh, his team doing a competitive tasting. So I didn't really need to focus on, I didn't need any reference points on that one. So when I turned it in my report the next day, I mean, you've worked with Warren and you've seen him.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
He puts the paper down and he's got that look on his face and his eyes are burning through me. He said, "I didn't ask you to taste Opus One or Pahlmeyer. Why in the world did you do that?" And I said, "Well, I thought you would appreciate some frame of reference."

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
And, (laughs) you know, and I, so I did a little song and dance around it. And so it was okay. Um, and the other one was, I had to re- write a report on how to get better color out of Cabernet Sauvignon. About-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) So, okay. I just, I, I just wanna make sure people know who we're talking about. This is Warren Winiarski owner of Stag's Leap Wine Cellars. So you've got 10 interviews. 

Michael Silacci:
Um, at interview seven or so, he asked me, uh, he said, "You know, um, I don't, you, you don't have any re- red wine on the shelf. You only have white wine on the shelf. And I've tasted your blends of Pinot, but it's not Cabernet. And I know you worked to BV, but we've got a job here. There's two jobs, the associate winemaker job for Stag's Leap Wine Cellars, and then the job for the Napa Valley Program and Hawk Crest and grower relations. I know you can do those. So how about taking this other job?" And I looked at him, he knew I had no income. He knew I had just finished building a house so I had a mortgage, and he was trying to find my limit.

Doug Shafer:
Hm.

Michael Silacci:
He was trying to see what I was made of. Right?

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
And I looked at him. I said, "You know, I have enjoyed these interviews so much and s- I'm gonna miss, uh, hanging out with you. But no, there's no way I'm gonna take that job. That's not the one that we've been talking about." And his, he shot back kind of, you know, slightly in his head, his head went back and he was like, "You're kidding me." And he said, "Okay." And I, and I said, "So anyway, it's been nice chatting with you." And he goes, "No, no, no, no, no, no, wait. I think we have more to talk about."

Doug Shafer:
Huh.

Michael Silacci:
And so, we had, uh, three more interviews use and the last interview you said, "Well, this is André Tchelistcheff again," and this almost makes me ... it kinda makes me tear, it tears me up because he said, "I called Dorothy and I asked her, what would Andre have said about you?" And he said, "So I want you to be my winemaker."

Doug Shafer:
Ooh, boy. Boy.

Michael Silacci:
But there was a catch. (laughs) There was, there was a catch Doug. He said, he offered me $10,000 a year less than what I'd been making in, in, in King Estate. And he said, "You are on one year probation. At the end of one year, if you don't feel this is the right place for you or if I don't feel you're the right place, the right person for the place, then we'll go our separate ways, no hard feelings." And I said ... I held out my hand and we shook hands. And right away what happened, that was, I started March 5th, 1995. And, um, in s- uh, the beginning of the gr- because they were, it was like a, a pyramid top-down hierarchy-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
... you know, where the cellar master had ... the winemaker had every, all the knowledge and would dole out just enough to the cellar master to be able to, to dull out a little bit to each of the cellar workers to, to get things done. And I, um, and I said, "I'm going to flip that." So if you look at a triangle and you break that triangle up into triangles, there's one triangle that has ... that the base is wide. The top is wide and the tip is down.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
Um, and I said, "That's gonna represent production, winemaking and viticulture." And so I said, "We're gonna put together a training program so that everyone goes from the entry level to cellar position four, which includes some supervision and management, and we're gonna bring everyone up to level four." And so the cellar master didn't like that and, and left.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Michael Silacci:
And so, uh, this is like we're approaching harvest. And Warren said, "Go out and fi- you just find what, whoever you want as cellar master. I don't care how much it costs, just get someone." And I'm was thinking about, and I spoke with, uh ... Brooks Painter was the Hawk Crest winemaker in Napa Valley Winemaker-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
... and Julia Winarski was working with me. And I said, "You know what? I want Benjamin to be the, the cellar master." And they say, "You can't put Benjamin there. He's never ... he's just one of our, he's one of the two top cellar workers." And I said, "No, but he will be ... we can teach him how to do this."

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Michael Silacci:
And they were s- they were afraid of that. And they said, "No." And, and I said, "Listen, you, I can teach someone how to manage. I can teach someone how to run a team. I can teach someone how to follow through on things. I can't teach people interpersonal skills like he has. You know, one could, he's got the ... he's ready for this." They, so they, I s- I said, "I'm, I'm sorry I worked by consensus, but it's one to three here. I'm gonna go, um, with my gut and I, I want him to be Benjamin." So then I have to go present it to Warren. Warren, same pushback. "No, you're gonna fail.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
You know, it's not gonna work." And then finally, he says, "You remember Michael, that you have one year, and if he fails, you fail." And I said, "I would bet my career on no one other than Benjamin Ochoa." And I said, "It's one to four, but I, you gotta let me do this." And it was the best decision to secure my career now.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah. Well, good for you.

Michael Silacci:
And after one y- after one year, sometime in late March of '96, I went and see Warren and I said, "Warren, when are we gonna meet to talk about, um, uh, you know, the job?" And he said, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well, my year probation's up." And he laughed at me and he said, "Go back out into the vineyard." (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) That's great. So that was, Warren was, kind of had a great winery for sure. And so you were with him, that was the beginning of a good, a good stint. You were there for gosh, what? Five, six years.

Michael Silacci:
Six, six years to the day.

Doug Shafer:
All right. And then, uh, and then did you, uh, did you go out looking or did somebody come find you?

Michael Silacci:
No, I was, I was so happy there. You know, people criticized, uh, my decision. They said, uh, 'cause I had three different offers. And they, they say, "W- we told you, you should never go there. Um, I mean, you've, you know what Warren is like." And, and I, and I said, "You know, people have pools of people that, there are people in their pool that, with whom they can work. Some people it's an ocean. Some people it's a lake, other people, it's a puddle. I happen to be in Warren's puddle." And I had such a great time there. But I, I was approached in at first, uh, and that was in July of or June of 2000. And then I, I, uh, that was with the recruiter and I said, "Okay, well, I'm going to go on vacation in France for three weeks. So, let's chat when I come back in August." Uh, what I really wanted to do was I, I called, uh, Denis and I said, "Denis can you ..."-- 'cause he consulted for all of the, he knew all the, the top, the, the first growths -- and I said, "Can you hook me up with the first growths?" And, um, the person who sat next to me in class every day in Bordeaux was Eric Turvy who was the technical director at Mouton. So I got into Mouton easily.

Doug Shafer:
Huh.

Michael Silacci:
But he set me up with all these visits and actually Denis said to me, he said, "If you really wanna learn what's going on in Bordeaux right now, you should just go to the garagiste." And I said, "Okay, I'll visit some garagiste, but I need to know classic," because he didn't know what I was doing this for, but I needed to be able to interview intelligently with the French-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
... uh, Patrick Leon. And, um, so that was preparing for that those interviews. And, um, so you do the personality test, you do the, all these different tests and meet the, I think it was three, three interviews with the recruiters and one was supposed to be recorded interview. They had, um, Dawnine Dyer was their consulting winemaker to write questions, you know, for interviews. And I was, I was supposed to be recorded and I told Jody Shepard, who was, it was her first, um, um, first assignment at placing someone. And-

Doug Shafer:
And I, I gotta jump in here, just I think you and-

Michael Silacci:
Sure, please.

Doug Shafer:
Um, just making sure everyone knows we're talking-

Michael Silacci:
Oh, I'm sorry. Yes.

Doug Shafer:
Now we're talking about Opus One. So it was because Patrick Leon, he was, uh, he was the president of Opus One at that point or running it?

Michael Silacci:
He w- he was winemaker out at, at Mouton. And-

Doug Shafer:
Oh, at Mouton.

Michael Silacci:
Yeah, yes.

Doug Shafer:
But he was involved with the Opus One project there.

Michael Silacci:
Yeah, he was on the bo- he was on the board. He was the co-winemaker with Tim Mondavi.

Doug Shafer:
Got it. Okay.

Michael Silacci:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
So the original team.

Michael Silacci:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And so this is ... so, so they're, they're recruiting you for … a position.

Michael Silacci:
I was, I was gonna be a DOVE.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Michael Silacci:
So you have the t- the two co-winemakers. There were co-CEOs. I had two half bosses and I had two, and there were two co-winemakers. Right? So it, I really, and it was perfect. I was a dove of peace. So you'd have, um, differences of opinion between Patrick and Tim. Tim, if you put on a blindfold and had those UN, um, translator earphones so you didn't know who was who, you would swear Tim was a French winemaker and Patrick was a Californian because the restrictions that they have in France, you know, they, he wanted always bust out of that and do whatever, do things that were more extreme, Patrick.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
Tim was, had learned from Lucian Enciano, who was a co-winemaker with them for the, from '79 through '84. And so he was very, had a very restrained, goal or, um, style. So, so, so-

Doug Shafer:
Sure, style. But so you have that, so you were the g- you were the go between.

Michael Silacci:
I was, I was the DOVE.

Doug Shafer:
The peacemaker.

Michael Silacci:
And w- we, we were like a three, three-legged stool. So DOVE, what is it? That stands for, um, Director of Viticulture and Enology.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
So, it, but I like to find correlations between these things, you know, like, oh, that has a meaning here.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
And it did. And then, then, um, in May of 2003, uh, I was, uh, uh, asked to fly at the last minute to, uh, Miami and they say, "Get a room at the Mandarin Oriental and come to the board meetings." So I reported it to the board meeting. And that was where I was told that I was now the sole winemaker first sole winemaker. Uh, O-L-E and O-U-L, uh, a of Opus One.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, I didn't know that. So you were, you hired, you started Opus One 2001 as the DOVE-

Michael Silacci:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... Director of Viticulture and enology and then so '03, so, 03, you're promoted ... I didn't know that. So you were ... that was the first time there was just one winemaker, not co-winemakers, France and US.

Michael Silacci:
Exactly, exactly.

Doug Shafer:
Mi- Michael, I never knew that. Congratulations. That's, that's, that must have blown you away. Geez.

Michael Silacci:
It, w- it, it did, but it lasted only one year.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Oh.

Michael Silacci:
(laughs) No, no. Th- this is what I mean, Doug.

Doug Shafer:
Oh.

Michael Silacci:
So I was w- sole winemaker for 2003, and then in May of 2004 I'm on jury duty in, uh, in Napa. And I'm a big daydreamer, and I was daydreaming about ... and I wasn't on trial when this happened.

Doug Shafer:
That's good.

Michael Silacci:
I was daydreaming about the vineyard workers how we taught them the principles of viticulture and practices we wanted here. And, um, and they had done things that helped us to improve the quality of the, of the grape berries coming into the winery. And I was thinking about how they did that. They improve the quality. And then I started thinking about the cellar crew and I, and you've got one of our, the first s- cellar crew members that worked here, Fernando.

Doug Shafer:
Fernando, yeah.

Michael Silacci:
Who's fantastic, one of the nicest people on earth.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, he's great.

Michael Silacci:
Um, anyways, so, um, I was daydreaming about them and I th- and I was thinking, "Well, they know the mechanisms of winemaking, but I don't know if they feel it in their tribes."

Doug Shafer:
Hm.

Michael Silacci:
So come back to the winery, get the six cellar, six cellar workers together and I told them my story, except I didn't tell them, I don't know if you're passionate about what you do or have any feelings for it. But I said, "I'm going to divide you into two teams of three. I decide who goes on each team, because I want you to have some differences of opinion. I don't want the three buddies together with three people, uh, three others. I, I want, um, you to, um, learn to reach consensus on everything. I'm giving each team 22 rows of vineyard in our best vineyard, and you're going to prune, sucker, do green harvest, fruit drops and taste to make harvest decisions. And you'll each have, uh, small stainless-steel tanks in which you will ferment two tons of fruit making 120 cases of wine or 1400 bottles." And they looked at me and they said, "No, no, no, no, no. We don't make decisions. We do what you tell us to do." And I said, "That's the problem, until everyone had Opus One is engaged in the pursuit of absolute wine quality, we can't get to the next level fast enough. So I'm not asking you if you want to do this, I'm telling you we'll do this. And I'm not ..." I was thinking about everyone. "And so what we're going to do is you three will each be together for as long as you're at Opus with the same 22 rows of vines for, for this project, which will be an annual project. And each year we're gonna have for each team, a vineyard worker, um, a tour guide, and an office worker on your teams." So since, uh, then, Doug, up until this year, we have had 110 non-production employees make wine at Opus One. So beginning in 2004, I was no longer the sole winemaker.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Yeah. But you're the leader. Good for you. So was Constellation purchased Mondavi in '04 how w- so now there are 50% owners of Opus One. What was that like for you? Big, big changes or things stayed the same?

Michael Silacci:
It was, there were changes because before, you had two families, um, trying to work in a 50-50 joint venture, and sometimes it was a little tense.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
Um, and then when Constellation came in, uh, Philippine de Rothschild and Xav- Xavier de Eizaguirre negotiated extremely well to make sure that, um, that it was understood that Opus was to become independent, and that Opus was, um, uh ... so my decisions, the sales and marketing decisions, all decisions were made by the team on site. And we would have one, a CEO, uh, no co-CEOs. And that CEO would be paid by Opus. The co-CEOs were paid by the mothership's by Mondavi or by, Mouton.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Michael Silacci:
And so that was another big change, and that happened in 2004, but, um, th- there really wasn't that much of a change. I just felt that, um, a l- more freedom and there was less tension, uh, because Constellation, they were s- they were great. Um, they, they s- they saw, we knew what we were doing, and they let us do what we were doing. Um, so that was, that was, uh, I thought it was a very positive change.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, good to hear.

Michael Silacci:
I, I've been in ... everywhere I'd been, Beaulieu, Tom Selfridge, there'll be no change here and I had four different positions while I was at Beaulieu. The last position was where they sold, um, Christian Brothers and Quail Ridge and Inglenook and Beaulieu came back to Beaulieu and I was on the winemaking team at Beaulieu, winemaking/vit team. Um, King Estate was an, uh, in constant ... I mean, there was an entrepreneurial, um, atmosphere.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
Um, and Stag's Leap Wine Cellars, we had constru- ae had construction projects going on every single year.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Michael Silacci:
My first year they were, the, the welder was still welding, uh, spots in the platform for the, that w- w- where we would bring the Chardonnay in macro bins and empty them into, um, into a conveyor belt, which would go into the press. As he was finishing up his last touches, the first truck came in. I mean, that's the way it happened at Stag's Leap Wine Cellars. They peeled off the whole outside of a building when ... every year we had a construction project. And so, um, I was used to-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, used to.

Michael Silacci:
... uh, used to that. So then here we have, you know, had changed also. I would have expected less change here, but there has been an evolution here as well.

Doug Shafer:
Well, I was gonna ask you about that. You've been there quite a long time, 20 years, I think. So you've been there for lots of changes in the vineyard and the cellar, anything that, that stands out as being that worked really well, that, you know, while you've been there, improved quality?

Michael Silacci:
Yeah. One of the biggest improvements was what I did right off the bat. And I ... well, first of all, I came in with my, um, my lips sealed-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
... and my ears wide open, and my eyes wide open. And I, my question to myself was what can I do that would have the biggest impact on improving wine quality? And, and it's like, in life, you have, whether it's your professional life or your personal life, you have a honeymoon period. Right? And your personal life, you never want the honeymoon to end. Your professional life, I, I've always wanted to end it with something that would not get me fired, but would have the biggest impact on wine or grape quality. So I determined that we needed, I needed 27 vineyard workers. 24 vineyard workers, two supervisors and one vineyard manager to be dedicated exclusively to Opus One out of the, carve them from out of the Mondavi team. They had, I think, 11 different teams, all I needed was three. And so I convinced the Mondavi, uh, vineyard management team to let me to do this. And I remember they said, um, this is, I started, uh, on them right away in April of ‘01. And they said, "Okay, yeah, we can do that, but let's, uh, get through harvest and we'll, we'll do it." And I said, "No, Tim and Patrick are gonna be coming for the, the, um, summer technical meetings. And I want them, when we go to the vineyard to see that there's no barrier between ... no hedge between me and the vineyard workers, they know who I am, and I knew who they are, so it has to happen now." So they did it and we didn't ask permission. We just did it. And they sent out a memo saying this. So that was the first, um, uh, sin, so to speak. But the cardinal sin was that they named (laughs), they named in one team Opus One in the second one Opus Two.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, no, no, no, you can't do that (laughs).

Michael Silacci:
So I get called into the co-CEO's office and they're both at each other's throats. Not really, but kind of, thinking that the other orchestrated this, and here I am, the little lamb that comes in. And I said, "No, actually it was me, uh, and these are the reasons, this is the reason I did it." And I explained it to them. And they're sitting there with their eyes, you know, like looking at me like they, dumbfounded, who does this guy think he is? And I was excused from the, um, from the meeting and brought back in, they called me back in and they said, "You know, that you can't just do things like this.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Michael Silacci:
You, you have to, that's why we have co-winemakers, you know, you have to consult with people and you, you have to go through the process." And I said, "Oh, darn." You know, but, but what, they, they were amazed that I did it, but, you know what I think they were more amazed at? Was that I actually admitted that it was me.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah.

Michael Silacci:
And I said, "Well, I just asked them, they're the ones that made the decision." No, I said, "It was me. I talked them into it." And they said, "Don't do that anymore." Now, granted, Doug, I knew that I had to do, reach consensus, but did I have five years to work on that? No, because every time, you know, I could see this being a negotiation between the two, each getting something out of it to give me a team. And I just said, I just did it. So I didn't get fired for doing it, but I got a severe looking, look over.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Right.

Michael Silacci:
Um, but that, that I think is to this day, one of the biggest contributions to wine quality at Opus One.

Doug Shafer:
Huh. Good for you. Congratula- yeah. Well, I that's a, and I, I'm, I'm in your camp, you know, 100% the relationship between vineyard and cellar and making sure everybody's on the same page, you know, the upside down pyramid is, uh, is vital to quality for sure. Yeah. I got a question for you. I, tell me about Overture. I've never known the story of that, which is it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, another wine that you make it Opus, right? What's, what's the story on that?

Michael Silacci:
Um, first of all, it's a true second wine. Uh, we make Opus from our four estate vineyards-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Michael Silacci:
... and whatever lots don't go into Overt- uh, Opus One, are available for Overture.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Michael Silacci:
So we, once we finished the blending process for Opus, we then, uh, start the blending process for Overture. Blending for Opus takes about four to six weeks, you know, just going back and forth, taking time in between. Uh, Overture is, um, uh, done a little bit more quickly, but it's not just like the "worst lots."

Doug Shafer:
Oh no, I'm with you.

Michael Silacci:
Because, because y- you know, as well as I do that, you can take the five best basketball pl- pro basketball players in the United States and put them on the Olympic team and they might lose because there's no chemistry, there's no teamwork.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
So there are some outstanding lots that are excluded from Opus because they just don't fit.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
They take the wine, the blend in it, in the wrong direction, and those are available for Overture. So the first Overture was made in 1993.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Michael Silacci:
A couple of reasons for why they did it. One was they made this wine and then whatever was left over, they sold it in the, on the bulk market, uh, at a very low price. Secondly, that put a lot of pressure on the winemaking team to put as much wine into Opus to make the biggest blend possible because, for financial reasons. I, I'm not supposed to think about the cost of things. I'm only supposed to be thinking about wine quality and that's the way they should have been thin- they were probably thinking.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Michael Silacci:
I'm sure they were. Um, so then that, and that started in 1993, I, and it was available at the winery in the, in the partner's room. We never poured it, uh, for people to taste, you buy a bottle and, you know, trust us. And it developed its own little cult following. And then, uh, I can't remember, I'm bad with years now, but I don't know, seven, eight, nine, 10 years ago, um, we started to offer a taste at the beginning of a tour. And then we wanted to see what, how it would do in the, in the market. So there was a test market in the summer done in Southern California, and then don't, laugh in Florida, 'cause, you know, who's buying red wine in Florida in the summer? But, um, but it was successful. And then it was put into 10 or 12 states and now it's sold ... you know, 60% of our wine is sold outside of the United States-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
... through Laplas in Bordeaux, through 22 negociants. And it just now started to go through the Laplas, and so some is sold internationally. It's always been, um, uh, sought after in like a cult wine in Japan. David Pearson and I were on, uh, on a market visit in, in, in Japan. I think it was '04, or '07. And, uh, we went to the New York Grill at the top of the, um, Park Hyatt in Tokyo. And I said, (laughs) I said, "Oh, David, they have a, a vertical by the glass of Opus."

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
And he goes, "Oh yeah, that's great." And I said, "Oh my gosh, they got Overture. That's not legal."

Doug Shafer:
(laughs).

Michael Silacci:
And he said, "No, it's not." He goes, "But don't say anything." A glass, and you know, the pours are short there.

Doug Shafer:
Yes.

Michael Silacci:
$180 for a short pour of Overture.

Doug Shafer:
There you go (laughs).

Michael Silacci:
And we were just blown away. But what, what would happen is, you know, people would come to visit, they, they buy a case of Opus and take it back and sell it to a restaurant or whatever.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah. That's, yep. Yep. Those things happen. So yeah. You mentioned your distribution, Opus One. I mean, the wine is well-represented all over the world. It's beautiful. And um, but for all our folks out listening, I mean, there's, are there other ways people can get a hold of Opus? You guys have a website, can, uh, where else can they purchase Opus or Overture?

Michael Silacci:
Well, the best place to purchase this is to come and visit. We have a brand new, uh, partner's room which is beautiful-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Michael Silacci:
And it has a really nice view. Um, so that's the best way to, to come and taste and then buy some. We do have a website and you can dry it, buy it directly from us.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Michael Silacci:
So we have direct to consumer. Uh, we, there are plenty of retail shops in the United States, uh, that bottle shops that, that sell, uh, Opus One. Um, we used, we actually, we were 60%, uh, on-premise 40% off for the longest time.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Silacci:
And then a year ago, you know what happened.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that changed.

Michael Silacci:
And we, I have to give credit to Chris Avery, who was our, the VP of sales and domestic sales. He saw that and he went, boom, went to 80%, um, uh, retail and 20% or 10%, uh, on-premise. With 10% just to go wherever, you know, just to have as a backup. But that was, uh, you know, just another change in our lives, right?

Doug Shafer:
Yeah. For all of us, without a doubt.

Michael Silacci:
For all of us.

Doug Shafer:
You bet. Well, Mr. Silacci, I want to thank you for taking this time. This has been great to hear your story. There's a whole lot about your life that I did not know and I do now. So, um, I look forward to getting together and having a glass of wine and hearing more stories. So thanks for your time, my friend.

Michael Silacci:
And like, like to hear more of yours, Doug.

Doug Shafer:
Okay. Well, yeah, we'll have to do those off air. They're not, they're not PG.

Michael Silacci:
Yes (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
Okay (laughs).

Michael Silacci:
All right.

Doug Shafer:
All right, man.

Michael Silacci:
Thank you so much.

Doug Shafer:
You bet. Take care. We'll see you around.

Michael Silacci:
Okay. Bye-bye.

Doug Shafer:
Thanks, bye.