Listener Questions with Spencer Christian

Full Transcript

Spencer Christi...: Hello, hello

Doug Shafer:
Rock n' Roll (laughs).

Spencer Christian:
(laughs) How you doing Doug?

Doug Shafer:
Spencer, I'm so great and this is, oh, I'm so glad we're doing this. I'm doing this with you cause it's just like rolling over, you know?

Spencer Christian:
Oh, man. Yeah, you're right, you're right. It's so natural.

Doug Shafer:
I just... you know. I just... I don't- I don't want any stress today, so you...

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
Somebody I know and love. Get away with murder.

Spencer Christian:
Oh man, thank you. I appreciate it. Listen, this is a treat for me. A real treat.

Doug Shafer:
Well, this will- this will be fun, you know, and, uh, let's just have a good time, wing it, abs- obviously we can start and stop. You know, Andy might jump in saying let's do that one again. We'll just, um...

Spencer Christian:
Sure, sure.

Doug Shafer:
And, uh, since you're pro you know how to do that and I'm learning.

Spencer Christian:
Yep (laughs). Well I'm still learning, I'm still learning too.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Spencer Christian:
I'm- I'm in my 50th year in television, uh, uh, Doug and I'm still learning stuff (laughs).

Doug Shafer:
Oh man, I've got a long way to go. I haven't gone on TV yet (laughs).

Spencer Christian:
(laughs).

Doug Shafer:
Oh, all right buddy. You ready to go [crosstalk 00:00:59]?

Spencer Christian:
I think so.

Doug Shafer:
All right, I'll take it away.

Spencer Christian:
All right Doug.

Doug Shafer:
Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of The Taste. This is Doug Shafer. We've got us, a, uh, a different type of episode today. It's a-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... Q&A, questions and answers. And our co-pilot is Spencer Christian. Who, if you don't know, I'm gonna give you a little quick bio. He spent 13 years as the weatherman, weatherman on Good Morning America. He is a true wine pioneer. He created the first show on national TV that was all about wine, which was back in 1990 or the '90s called Spencer Christian's Wine Cellar, which was on HGTV.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
He's an author. He's a speaker. He's also a nice guy. I like to drink wine with him.

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
Uh, (laughing) he's, he's met, he's met everyone you've ever heard of, from Muhammad Ali to Bill Murray, to Henry Kissinger. He's now does the local weather here in the Bay Area on ABC 7. And, uh, we're lucky to have him back. Our first guest who's ever agreed-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... to come back. (laughs) usually, they-

Spencer Christian:
Well-

Doug Shafer:
... they, they get done and they run. Spencer, welcome back, man.

Spencer Christian:
(laughs) Doug, it's always great to be with you and always great to talk about wine with you. And, you know, the main reason I'm back, uh, is that, Hey, you're a good friend. But the second reason I'm back is that you promised me s- a taste of some Shafer wine. (laughs)

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) That's right. But we're, we're not together. So we're gonna have to do it a third time once this pandemic is over.

Spencer Christian:
I, I'm gonna have to ... Yeah, yeah, exactly. I was gonna say, I'll have to come up there and visit you as soon as this pandemic is behind us and we will, uh, we'll do some, some sipping.

Doug Shafer:
Definitely. Well, we're going, we're going to lunch for sure. I'm buying. So-

Spencer Christian:
That's, that's for sure. Well, you know, we've got a bunch of questions here today, Doug. Uh, you wanna get right into them and-

Doug Shafer:
Let's get ... You're the question man and I'll be, uh, at- the at-, I'll attempt at the answers and if I need help-

Spencer Christian:
(laughing) Okay.

Doug Shafer:
... you can help me out.

Spencer Christian:
All right. So I'll start with this one, this is from Sarah Barbers and she says, "Doug, love the podcast and notice that over the last year, the pandemic comes up, uh, a little bit, but not a lot. I was wondering how the COVID situation has affected things at your winery and at other Napa wineries. Do you think any of the changes you've seen in the last year are long-term?"

Doug Shafer:
Wow, that's a good one. Yeah, Sarah, we, yeah, we haven't focused too much on the pandemic. I think we've, I try to make an effort just to keep this thing a little bit of a break for everybody since it's been such a, you know, a long, tough year with the whole pandemic thing. But, um, it, it definitely hit the Napa Valley and the wine country. It hit our winery. Um, I mean, it's not literally, just figuratively just with the stay at home. Basically sh- we shut down the winery to visitors, uh, in March, 2020, um, and are still closed to visitors. Uh, I sent everybody home and some folks are working remotely. Some are coming in. It's been very, very casual. The, the priority at Shafer is safety and, and safety and healthiness of all our folks that work here. So it's been a, an interesting time. It's kinda wild. The, the vineyard guys and all vineyard operations are totally normal. Um, but they're, because they're able to work 10, 15, 20 feet apart, the guys for the most part. So it's very safe out there. And the cellar has been totally normal. We've got three guys in the cellar with Elias. They've got masks on. They can, he can-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... they, they don't ever have to work side by side. So ... those two operations have been kind of normal, which is kinda, which is great because that's growing grapes and making wine. The, the whole hospitality thing in the, at the winery though, is totally shut down. So no visitors-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... and skeleton staff, and basically we're doing curbside sales. If people drive up in the parking lot we can sell them wine. So, you know, will th-, will things stay, I don't know. You know, and it's slowly opening up right now. It's, um, early March in 2021, and there's a lot of wineries who are doing outdoor tastings. Uh, just last week, they, they're allowing some indoor tastings, I think. That's kinds coming and going. And, uh-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... so it's, it's kinda creeping back to normalcy. Um, we see, during the weekends, we see a lot tourists run around St. Helena and Calistoga in Napa. Everybody, you know, for the most part, everybody's wearing masks, which is great. So it's, um-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... yeah, as far as long-lasting changes, hard to tell at this point. It's just kinda taking it one day at a time.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Doug, uh, obviously, uh, based on your answer, it doesn't seem like production was affected, uh, but obviously hospitality. But, um, I guess it's, it's hard to tell then whether there are changes that will be permanent, right, in terms of the way you sell wine or, or, or in, or in the way you do hospitality.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, it is, it's, I think it's too soon to tell, but I think there's, uh, I think we've learned some things and, um, I think a lot of places have dawned to kind of a reservation system for visits. And-

Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug Shafer:
... I've talked to some of my peers and they s-, they say, you know, it's kinda neat. Um, people can almost, you know, book a tasting like booking a table at a restaurant. Just for a more private, that type of thing. And so maybe there might be a move away from the, you know, mass tastings, belly up to the bar thing and more of a, um-

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... kind of a reservation system. Hard to tell.

Spencer Christian:
Okay.

Doug Shafer:
We'll see.

Spencer Christian:
Sounds, sounds good.

Doug Shafer:
All right.

Spencer Christian:
Uh, well, there's a, there's a question from, uh, Tom Danczyk. He says, uh, "Doug, uh, uh, this is a great idea. Thanks for the opportunity to ask, uh, questions. Is there a high temperature at which you would immediately be concerned about the quality of the wine in the bottle? Uh, is, is there a temperature at which you would not be concerned for days or weeks or maybe even months?" He says he would assume that wine could take a higher temperature for a few days versus a few weeks or a few months.

Doug Shafer:
That's, Tom's definitely got it right. I mean, if, if a wine was at a high temperature, you know, basically the shorter time, the better. As far as the exact temperature that I'd be concerned about, I mean, if a wine was something like, you know, 80 degrees Fahrenheit, it'd be like, "Oh man, what's going on here? Let's cool this thing down right away." You know, ideal seller conditions is in the, you know, 55, 58, 60 degrees Fahrenheit, um. Constant temperature is the real key thing for, for wine quality and storage. I mean, even if you can't get 58 or 60, if you can get 63 or 64 and have that be consistent and constant, that's better than going from like 58 to 75 back to 55, up to 80. That's, that's gonna beat up a wine pretty good in storage. So consistent temperature. I try not to get over the low 60s. Ideally 58 to 60 would be great, a dark place, store the wine outside, keep the cork moist. That's important so the cork doesn't dry out.

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
Um, but, uh, you know, that's why, you know, sometimes you, you, if you walk into a, a wine shop and you've got a, there's some great bottle of wine sitting on the top shelf, and it's not an air-conditioned room, and it's standing upright and it's a 10 year old wine, it's like, boy, I wouldn't (laughing) I wouldn't go there.

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... you know, and so-

Spencer Christian:
I have seen that so often, you know, and I wonder don't people in the wine business know better. I mean, not keep a bottle standing up that long, especially an older bottle, you know.

Doug Shafer:
Well, you know, guess what guilty as charged. We've got a bo-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
..., we've got a three-liter bottle sitting out in the tasting room.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
It's, it's a very lonely bottle right now because there's no one there.

Spencer Christian:
(laughs) 

Doug Shafer:
And it's a three liter bottle of 1978 Cabernet, which was our first cab, a gorgeous wine. I kinda really don't know where this thing came from. It's just always been there. It's a, it's an etched bottle and it's like, um, Elias started talking the other day, it's like, "Is it really the '78 or is it like fake wine? We just put for, for ..."

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... "you know, display purposes." So we really don't know, (laughs) but-

Spencer Christian:
Well-

Doug Shafer:
... but it's been standing up right in a, in a room temperature, which gets, you know, hot and cold throughout the year. And so-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... we're gonna have to pop it sometime and see what’s what.

Spencer Christian:
Well, if that lowly bottle ever needs some company, let me know. I'll (laughing) happy-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Spencer Christian:
... to make the drive. You know, just, just one more thing, if I can throw in a, a-

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Spencer Christian:
... a, a personal experience about storing wine. When I first got into collecting wine, keeping it at home, um, this is like the late 1970s. I was working for ABC in New York. And I lived, um, in a, you know, nice little suburban community over in New Jersey. And I had, um, a, a full, a, a full basement in my home, right.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Spencer Christian:
So I'd partitioned off a section of my, uh, which was fully underground as my, my wine storage area. Uh, there was no window there, it, and it had a, it was on a part of the house that faced North, so it never got direct sunlight during the day. And without any temperature control device, if you could believe this, m- my, uh, room temperature down there and never got above 65 degrees in the heat of summer, it never got below 52 in the dead of winter. And-

Doug Shafer:
That's perfect.

Spencer Christian:
... my, and it kept my wine without a, uh, a temperature control device. So I guess I got lucky.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I mean, anybody with a, if you've got a basement, you gotta admit, but this is the key. I mean, you know, I'm, I'm lucky I've got a whole winery here to store my personal wines and so it's-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... temperature controlled and you know, alarms and all that. But most folks, you know, you're dealing with, how do you do it at home? And, um-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... years ago I had a garage where I'd built a closet and put a little tiny, uh, air conditioner in there. And that worked pretty well. You doing the basement thing works great if you've got a home that's got underground storage. So, um-

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... but it can be a challenge. Um-

Spencer Christian:
Sure, yeah, it can. It can. Well, let me, let me move on to the next question 'cause people wanna hear their questions and not mine. (laughs) 

Doug Shafer:
No, I wanna hear yours. Yours are good. (laughs)

Spencer Christian:
(laughs) This is from, uh, Marie Fran Nieves in, uh, Tacoma, Washington. And she says, "Hi, Doug, I really enjoyed your book, which I finished recently. I noticed it was printed in 2012. So it ends talking about what things like, what things were like at Shafer and at Napa Valley during the recession from 2008 to 2011. If you were writing this book today and it was coming out in 2021, what else would you be able to write about how would you, um, how do you think you would end it?"

Doug Shafer:
Man, was it that long ago, (laughing) 2012? I can't-

Spencer Christian:
Can you believe that?

Doug Shafer:
That's like nine years.

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
Uh, well, I guess we'd have to add a few chapters. Um, let's see. Well, in '12, right, when the book came out with, that's when the, uh, 2008 Relentless was announced as wine of the year by the Wine Spectator.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And that was, and that was wild. That was a-

Spencer Christian:
Wow.

Doug Shafer:
... that was really crazy, um, and it was crazy, crazy good and great recognition for not just Relentless, but, but Shafer Vineyards. So that was a real fun one. Um-

Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug Shafer:
... 2014, I think that's the year dad turned 90 and, uh, it was, we had a couple of great parties. We had a big family party only, family only. It was about 40 of us. And that was, that was wonderful. And then, uh, a couple months later, we had friends and trade here at the winery. It was like 250, 300 people. And, you know, what was great, he was sharp and on it. And he was there to-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... be, uh, recognized and toasted and celebrated and gave a couple of great speeches. And, you know, and it happened while he was-

Spencer Christian:
That's awesome.

Doug Shafer:
... alive. That was so cool.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah, that's awesome.

Doug Shafer:
'Cause we lost him in 2019. It's been a couple of years.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... but he was a great life, 94. Um-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... in 2017 released, um, our new wine called TD-9. That was when we-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... moved from Merlot to, uh, Merlot/Cabernet Malbec red blend. Um, and that was kinda fun because I mean, we don't offer, we don't release new wines. I mean, we do it every 10, 12, 15 years. So that was a big one. And that's been a-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... a lot of fun. Um, that wine is-

Spencer Christian:
Where did that name come from-

Doug Shafer:
That-

Spencer Christian:
... TD, yeah, TD-9?

Doug Shafer:
... good q- q-, good question. Look, that tells the John Shafer moving from Chicago story. When he moved us out in '73, he went from, uh, riding a commuter train to downtown Chicago in a suit and tie to driving a TD-9 tractor here in our Napa vineyard.

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
It was this old-

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... tractor we found out here. It came with the ranch. And, you know, so all of a sudden he's got jeans and a straw hat and I've never seen the guy-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... I've never seen a bigger smile in my life. Ad I think that guy-

Spencer Christian:
He loved it. He, he loved it, right?

Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I'd come home from school. I was in high school. I drive home, he's out there in the tractor and big wave and big shit eating grin on his face. And just-

Spencer Christian:
Right, right. 

Doug Shafer:
... and I, and I, you know, that, that actually, um, it kinda shaped me, uh, and my career choices. Because at the time I'd grown up watching him commute to Chicago, you know, doing that commuter thing-

Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug Shafer:
... coat and tie. And all of a sudden I see him in jeans and a straw hat and, you know, we're working outside. We're really happy. And-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... I think that's-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... part of the reason I went to Davis was to study viticulture, to, uh, try to have a, an outdoor life if you will. So, uh-

Spencer Christian:
Ab- absolutely. Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... it really affected me and what -

Spencer Christian:
What was with that, what was with tha-, that, uh, six-hour sheep video, that, uh-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) That -

Spencer Christian:
... it came out in 2020? Right, 2020.

Doug Shafer:
Well, yeah, so, and then to finish up these last nine years, we're finishing up with this pandemic thing. So it was about a year ago and we're all, you know, we're all, the entire world's like, "What are we doing with this?" And-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... and, uh, I've got this crackerjack, you know, team that keeps our name out there all the time. And, um-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... Mr. Andy Demsky, and he came up-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... with a great idea because he'd read some article about people stuck in their apartments sheltering with, uh, big screen TVs and, you know, cold and winter. And they'd, they'd get a YouTube video of, of a fireplace burning and they just run that on the TV just to kinda warm up the room if you, you know, not-

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... literally-

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... figuratively.

Spencer Christian:
Not literally, right.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And, uh, and at the time we had our two, annual 200 sheep in into the vi- in our vineyards for two weeks 'cause they eat all the cover crop down so we don't have to drag tractors through the field. And, um, he got this great idea and, uh, we shot and pieced together six hours, six hours of sheep grazing (laughs)-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... in our vineyards. And it's really cute because there's a little baby sheep, 'cause there's always a bunch of babies born when they're here. And, uh, and there're, there's birds, you know, singing and so, and the, and the sheep were out there munching away. And, uh, you know, and baa-baa, a lot of that. And-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... and, and we put it on YouTube and it's gotten, I don't know, it's got hundreds of thousands of hits and it's because ... And people, and people writing in saying, thank God for the sheep.

Spencer Christian:
It's awesome.

Doug Shafer:
... they're keeping me alive. I'm stuck at home. (laughs)

Spencer Christian:
(laughs) That's awesome. I'm-

Doug Shafer:
So, well, check that out. YouTube, you know, hit YouTube and go, you know, Shafer sheep. I'm sure it'll pop up. It's pretty funny. It'll keep-

Spencer Christian:
I was just gonna say, I have to add that drinking Shafer wine is a sheer delight. And I say that-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Spencer Christian:
... and I, I say that with a sheepish grin, but (laughing) -

Doug Shafer:
God, God, you're on a roll. I love it.

Spencer Christian:
... I couldn't help (laughing) myself. But I couldn't help myself.

Doug Shafer:
Of course, you say that. This is what you do.

Spencer Christian:
Really? (laughs)

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Spencer Christian:
Let's move along to, uh, Jeff Foeller's, uh, question. He's from Hutchinson, Kansas. And Jeff says, "I'm curious about the impact of longer barrel aging for wine. For example, the 2016 Hillside Select was aged for 32 months in 100, 100% new barrels. Uh, why that length of time and why new barrels?"

Doug Shafer:
Good question. Um, we like ... Well, we make really rich concentrated wines and the two that are the, the biggest and the most concentrated are Relentless and Hillside Select. And these wines, I mean, when they're first made, they, they're just black as night, black purple. Um-

Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug Shafer:
... there's no aroma, very little aroma and it's just, in their mouth it's just massive, massive fruit. And to get that wine to open up, you need to age it a long time in barrels to have that, there's a slow oxidation that happens through the barrel staves, the wood and that it, a, softens the wine. It also opens up the nose, so there's better aroma. And we found with our two big wines, Relentless and Hillside, they need 30 or 32 months barrel aging to open up and really blossom aromatically. So we've moved to that over the years, that length of time and new French oak is a beautiful thing if you have enough concentration, um, in fruit, in the fruit to handle it, to balance it. And these two wines do especially, Hillside Select. So it-

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... it, it's a beautiful marriage and the, uh, the wine comes out very, you know, lovely balance. The oak is there, but it, it there's so much concentration of fruit, it does not overpower the wine. So it's, um, that's kind of the formula we've, after 35 years, we've come up with. Now, we have a couple other wines, One Point Five, and, uh, TD-9 other different reds, not quite as concentrated as Hillside Select. And, uh, we age those in barrel, a shorter amount of time, 18, 20 months, that type of thing. And also depending-

Spencer Christian:
Got it. Got it.

Doug Shafer:
... on the vintage. So it's kinda like being a chef. You know, you have to mix and match and know your ingredients and, and work with it that way. But, uh, uh, it's, it's basically, we've got big rich, beautiful wines and they can handle the oak and they, they need that time to open up.

Spencer Christian:
Doug, how much difference does one type of oak make versus another for, for your wine? For example, you know, French oak versus American oak or a Hungarian oak or Slovenian oak.

Doug Shafer:
Years ago we used some American oak in our, some of our cabs, but, uh, we've gone to 100% French. It's a, French oak, it's, uh, a little subtler flavor. American oak can be a little more aggressive. That, that doesn't mean it's a negative thing. It just means that-

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... it'll be a little more s- ... You, you'll notice it quicker than a French oak.

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
Uh, French oak, you, and the character with French oak is a little more vanillan, uh, if, you know, kind of French vanilla ice cream, if you will. And-

Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Doug Shafer:
... uh, that's, we've found, we like that, that flavor profile with our wines. That's how, that's where we go with that one.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah. I, I guess, uh, of similar to, to grapes, uh, the, the, the wood is a reflection of the soil in which it's grown, just like grapes can be, I guess.

Doug Shafer:
Well, they can. There's different forests in France, the, and some of the ... We get, uh, get our wood from, uh, areas where the, the grain is tighter, if you will. So-

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... the grain's tighter, um, so it doesn't impart as, uh, it doesn't impart the f- the oak flavor as quickly as a wider or looser grain would.

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... 'cause there's forests that have that. Because, uh, for that amount of time in barrel, we've gotta have tight grain. 'Cause if it was a-

Spencer Christian:
Sure.

Doug Shafer:
... loose grain, it'd be way too much oak.

Spencer Christian:
Well, okay. Spencer Christi...: Rod Green from Fair Oaks Ranch, Texas wants to know, um, "On the podcast, you often ask people from family wineries about their, uh, uh, secrets of success? What was the secret with you and your dad or with any other family members?"

Doug Shafer:
Wow. Well (laughs)-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... uh, he's a, you know ... This guy, who is this, Rod? But Rod is throwing-

Spencer Christian:
Rod, yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... it, he's throwing it back at me. Uh, it's, it's, uh-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... good for you, man. Um, we had a, my dad and I had a really unique experience, especially when I've talked to other people in other family businesses, whether they're wine or something else even. Um, I think the big key and obvious was communication.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And just as important was mutual respect. Um, even when I started here and I was green and kind of a knucklehead, um, he was-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... very patient and I, I don't ever recall one moment where he said, you know, he, he's something like, you know, "You're an idiot. What are you thinking about?" You know, nothing. It was always just he'd hear me out and we'd talk about it.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Um, we worked so closely together and making every decision because when I joined here, we were, we were not, you know, as, as popular, and we weren't making the quality wines we are now. So we really had to learn to figure it out. But w- we kicked our ideas around so often and so much, even Elias too. Um, by the time we make a decision, we kinda already knew we were gonna do it. For example, (laughing) I, I can remember-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... one time, this actually happened, um, he goes ... I was in his office and he goes, "Hey, I've been thinking about something. I wanna get your opinion." And I said, I held up my hand and I said, "Wait." He goes, "What?" And I grabbed a piece of paper and I grabbed the-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... pen and I wrote down, you know, "I'm thinking about, you know, opening up the, you know, the European market with Hillside Select." Or whatever it was. And-

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... and I folded it up and I said, "Okay, what's on your mind." And he goes, "I've been thinking about opening up the European market with (laughing) Hillside Select."

Spencer Christian:
(laughing) My God.

Doug Shafer:
And, and I opened up the paper and I showed it to him and he goes, "Wow." Because I mean, we were just kind of like, even when we weren't together, we were kind of tracking.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And that happ-, that, I swear to you, I go-, I'm not BSing you, that happened, that happened five or six times. It was like-

Spencer Christian:
That's amazing.

Doug Shafer:
... yeah. It was really kinda cool. Um-

Spencer Christian:
You guys were in sync. (laughs)

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, we were in sync. And so, and we, you know, if we ever disagreed, it was never like, uh, uh, earth changer, like, you know-

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... like line in the sand thing. It was just like, "Well, I really don't agree with that, but I, but I can see where you're coming from. So what if we ..."

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... "try this." And he'd go, "Well, what if we do this and take a baby step before we go full hog, full hog on something like that."

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
So it was, um, it was a lot of communication and mutual respect.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And my, I gotta give, tell you something. I gotta give him credit. He, when he turned this thing over to me in the mid '90s and said, "You run it." And he was still around and very ac-, and a very active guy. Um-

Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug Shafer:
... he really did it. He stepped back and people would come to him and say, "Hey, John, what about this?" And he'd go, "You gotta go see Doug. You gotta go see Doug." So-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... really let me run with it, you know-

Spencer Christian:
Wow.

Doug Shafer:
... and succeed-

Spencer Christian:
That's-

Doug Shafer:
... or fail. Yeah, it was pretty cool.

Spencer Christian:
I love that story. I love that story. It's fantastic.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Spencer Christian:
[inaudible 00:22:58]-

Doug Shafer:
Cool.

Spencer Christian:
... you have a question from, uh, Sandi Leyva of Scottsdale, Arizona. She says, "What advice would you have for someone like your dad who wanted to get into the wine business as a second career, uh, in their late 40s or early 50s? What opportunities are there? And bottom line, do you have to be a billionaire?" (laughs)

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Sandy, that, that last line hurts. That's what my answer was gonna be. You gotta be a billionaire. No, that's, um, no, you don't have to be a billionaire. Um, I think you've gotta be really creative. I think you need to, first of all, think about what you wanna do and what's realistic and what's affordable. And, you know, making a top end, Napa Cabernet might not be affordable, uh, with what's land prices are. So if you do like wine maybe there's another avenue, another type of wine, another style of wine, um, grown in a different area. I mean, you've got the Sierra Foothill, Foothills. You've got Lake County is coming on, that's North of here. Oregon, Washington, other areas where their lands not so expensive, but you can still grow and make beautiful wines. Virginia, Michigan. I've had some gorgeous-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... wines from Michigan and Virginia. Um, and the Arizona. You know, I taught school in Tucson, Arizona. They were growing grapes down there and making wine. Good wines. Um, so yeah, I think you have to be really creative. Um, I think you have to do your homework and pay really close attention to what's realistic. I mean, really what's realistic. And when you go into it, especially if you're gonna build a facility, I mean, you need to overcapitalize, because things will come up, you're gonna have, um, something that you didn't expect that's gonna cost another $80,000 or something like that.

Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug Shafer:
And not, and beyond that, you've gotta have a game plan of how you're gonna sell the wine and who's gonna buy it and what they're gonna pay for it. And you really, you should need to do your research on that. And, um, you just can't do it and, and hope. Uh, trust me, I've, I've done that myself. You (laughing) gotta-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... you gotta have a plan. And, um, also there's some really cool things happening with people making wine in, in warehouses, in urban areas, um, in Oakland and South Napa. Instead of having this, having to pay all this money for a facility out in, you know, prime time, expensive land in Napa and Sonoma, you can have a warehouse space in Oakland or Napa in the warehouse district and bring, make wine in it. You know, I mean, you've got your equipment, you bring the grapes in and you go for it. It's a warehouse. I mean, uh, it's, I mean, that's how you keep costs down. So-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... so you can do it, but you've gotta be creative and do your homework-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... for sure.

Spencer Christian:
I've seen a lot of those urban winemakers out there. I've visited some over in Alameda and Oakland-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Spencer Christian:
... and, yeah, they're, they're all around. Um, there's a question from, um, Dave Glidden, uh, he says, "Doug, do you use open fermentation? And if so, uh, what do you see as the benefits? Uh, either way, what do you see as the pros and cons with this kind of fermentation?"

Doug Shafer:
Okay. I think he's referring, Dave's referring to open top fermentation where you just have a big vat and it's open to the air. Uh, we do not have that. Our fermenters are closed top. I mean, there's a, there's a big gate valve up on top. We can get a pump over device in, but we do not have open top. The, I think the tradition on open top was, um, I was talking to Elias about that, we think it kinda came from the old days when there wasn't, the, the cooling of the tanks wasn't available or wasn't as good as it could be now, as it is now. And so having an open top, it blows off heat 'cause fermentation, you've got, you're producing alcohol, but produces a lot of heat. And if it gets too hot, you kinda burn off some of the nice aromatics. So they could be a, it could be, it could be used, I think, just to get rid of heat, dissipate heat, and that's maybe where it came from. Um, some people might use it today to blow off, blow off some alcohol. So alcohol is volatile during fermentation. I think, um, in talking to a few people who've, who've mentioned that, you, you don't get a tremendous drop in alcohol. You might get, um, you know, half a percent or something like that, but that, that could be-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... a positive for doing that. Uh, the negatives, the reason we don't like it is because we think that you lose volatile aromas, some good aromatics. Because besides blowing off heat and alcohol, you're blowing off fruit and f-, and aromatics that we wanna keep-

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... in the wine. So we like to keep, uh, close top fermenters. That's, that's our program.

Spencer Christian:
It makes sense. From, uh, from Mike Rife or it could be Mike rife in New York, New York, New York, my old stomping ground. He says, "Hi, Doug. I was wondering why you use such (laughing) he- heavy ..."

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Spencer Christian:
... "bottles with Hillside Select. Have, have you considered using bottles of similar weight as Relentless. Um, I know you want to make them special, but does it need to be in the weight of the bottle?" And before you answer that, I'm just gonna say that-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Spencer Christian:
... the fir- first time I had a bottle of Hillside Select, I picked up that bottle and I thought, "I hope this is heavy because it has extra wine in it." (laughs)

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Well, you know, Mike, Mike Rife, from New York, I have to agree with you. I'm wondering the same thing. Why are we using such heavy bottles? Anyway, they his ... You know, I've been doing this a long time, so you go through different, you know, different stages. But back in the day, uh, in the early '90s, I mean, we were s- Hillside was taking off and, you know, um, it was all image and brand was important. And, you know, all of a sudden it was like the, it was like the age of the big, heavy bottles. And, uh-

Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug Shafer:
... I'm happy to say we weren't the biggest and the baddest, but we were pretty big and bad. (laughing) But I think I did-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... see somebody once there was actually more massive than ours. It was like, wow. Um, and we did it for a few years and it's like, "Wow, this is kind of ridiculous." Especially with, you know, um, the freight and, you know, fossil fuels and, you know, global warming and shipping this stuff. So-

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... what happens unfortunately with, um, with the wine business is, when you wanna make a change in packaging, it takes a while for it to come around. Uh, Hillside is, th-, I think ... Let's see. It's, uh, it's crush and by the time we release it, it's four years later. So, and it takes time. So at one point, we went back to the '06 vintage, we shaved off about, I think it was about 25, 30% of the weight. And that now we were actually with the '17 Hillside, which we bottled last year, it's gonna be released this September. Uh, it's the same bottle that we use for One Point Five. So we've gone all the way back. So, but-

Spencer Christian:
There you go.

Doug Shafer:
... but, but Mike you're right, we were way too heavy.

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
And so we were way wrong. I'm okay to say we were wrong on that one. (laughs)

Spencer Christian:
(laughs) Okay.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Spencer Christian:
From, uh, from, (laughs), from Andrew A. Ingram, uh, he ... This is a question I would like to know too. What wine do you drink that is not your own? But he also wants to know, um, how do you price wine and how much wine do you hold back from the actual release and what do you do with that wine?

Doug Shafer:
Okay. Well, we've got three questions. So what do I drink-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... that's not my own? Um, well, the, the short answer is everything. Um-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... I, I really, it's really fun to try new wines. I, um, even if it's a wine that doesn't taste very good, it's kinda like, "Why doesn't this taste good to me?" I mean, that's kind of an exercise. You and I have talked about that-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... but-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Right.

Doug Shafer:
... but, um, I drink a lot of, uh, I'm drinking more white wine these days. I love Chablis, Sancerre and I really love S- Sangiovese from Italy. Um,-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah, that's-

Doug Shafer:
... Fontodi, and, uh, once in a while I'll get crazy if I'm ever in a big bruiser night with, um, you know, like Michael Twelftree, my buddy in Australia and his Two Hands, some monster wines. And he, he says, Napa wines are monsters. This guy makes bru- (laughs)

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... bru-, they're bru- brut, bruts. They're bruts out there. Um, but it's fun. Um, I'll do Pinot from New Zealand and Oregon. Um, I still-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... keep, um, I'm still searching for that, you know, $50 retail burgundy, red burgundy, that's really delicious. And that's-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs) Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... and it's like, you can't get it at $50, but, um, that's an ongoing challenge. Uh, pricing wine, Hey, you know, um, we, we pay attention. We pay attention to see if wines moon or it's not. We pay attention to what's going on with our neighbors. Uh, we get feedback from customers. But the bottom line is, you know, we're in the business and, you know, I, I can't be losing money. And my prices are going up all the time. Barrels, equipment, um, you know, power, everything's going up. So-

Spencer Christian:
Sure.

Doug Shafer:
... so, um, we don't raise them as aggressively as we did back in the '90s, but, um, we're at a point where it's kinda leveled off. But, um, we've gotta cover costs and have a little leftover so we can, um, you know, take Spencer out to lunch. (laughs)

Spencer Christian:
(laughing) And there you go. I mean, like you said, (laughs) I like that part of it. It is a business, but it's also a labor of love. It, it, I know it absolutely is. So how, so how much wine do you actually hold back from release and, and what do you do with it?

Doug Shafer:
We, you know, years ago I ... God, I think we used to hold back like 50 cases of every wine we made. And all of a sudden, I, you, you kinda forget about it and it's in the warehouse, you know-

Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug Shafer:
... which is not onsite. And, uh, all of a sudden you're looking at inventory report and you've got like 50 cases of a ten-year-old Chardonnay. It's like, "Oh no ..."

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... "that's no good." So-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... we made a effort to minimize what we hold back. We hold back some Hillside Select every year. Um, not a ton, but enough, enough that we can, can, it can, we can use it like, uh, for special occasions, for traveling, just to treat, to show somebody an older Hillside. Um, it's probably around 100 cases worth if that. And that last over like a 10 year period, which is perfect. And, um-

Spencer Christian:
Sure.

Doug Shafer:
... once in a while there're, there'll be a restaurant or somebody who wants to do a vertical selection. You know, I'll get three or four bottles of, you know, five or six vintages and we can do that, uh, for them. But actually people would probably be surprised, we have a very small library. Um, so it's just, um, 'cause we just wanna, you know, it's we want people to buy it and drink it and enjoy it. So that's-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... that's-

Spencer Christian:
That, that's what it's there for.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah. And then you can oc- also hold over a bottle for when Spencer comes up to lunch. That'll be fun.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
And what was the one? You, what's your favorite? Was it night-, uh, it '97 or it's-

Spencer Christian:
It is the, the '87 -

Doug Shafer:
The '87.

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Spencer Christian:
Yeah. You wanna like, you wanna tell that story? I was, I was ... I'll start it. I was-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Spencer Christian:
... up there at Shafer, uh, to, uh, interview you, Doug, for-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Spencer Christian:
... a little segment I was doing it for a little wine, uh, uh, vignette I was doing. And, um, you and I were out walking around the property and I just happened to mention something about loving your 1987 Hillside Select. So then after we left the, the vineyards ... You, you pick it up from there. (laughs)

Doug Shafer:
Well, we'd set this up. You were coming up and Andy and I were talking and Andy said, "You know, I think Spencer loves, you know, loves old Hillside." I said, "Great." I said, and I just off the cuff, I said, and I said, I said, "Why don't you pull an '87?" He goes, "Okay." He looked at me-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... and said, "Really? You know, you never go that far back." I said, "Yeah, but I know S- I've known Spencer forever. Let's ... What the heck? You know, that'll be fun I haven't had in a year or two. It'll be fun." So we pulled the '87 and then you said that in the vineyard. (laughing) And we walk in the tasting room and we got the '87 there for you. That was pretty-

Spencer Christian:
My eyes almost popped out of my head.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Spencer Christian:
I, I couldn't believe it. It was great. But, you know, we've got a question from, um, Mitchell Miller, St. Peters, Missouri. He says, "Regarding varietal composition ..." Excuse me, "Varietal composition, specific to the Relentless and the TD-9 wines, what is the process the winemaker goes through to decide what the varietal composition will be? And once decided, how is it, uh, controlled at the time of blending?" I guess he means the percentages of each varietal.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah. Um, blending is ... Uh, last night, uh, we've gone full circle on blending. Um, people would probably be amazed and probably shocked at how we blend because we really don't blend. Um, so the story goes, when we started out, we'd be, um, we kept every s- every block separate. So every block and Merlot, every block of cab, you know, there'd be ... And every te- ... So there'd be tanks. There'd be, you know, four or five tanks for Merlot and 10 tanks of Cabernet, a couple tanks of Cabernet Franc, that type of thing.

Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug Shafer:
And then we'd get in the, we'd put ... And after, you know, six months or so, it's like, let's work on some blends the following spring. So we'd have all these different wines in the lab, you know, and we start trying to put together. Well, so how about 10% of that or 15% of that? It was, you know, you've got basically about probably 13 or 14 different lots, you know, separate lots of wine, and you wanna make th-, you wanna end up with three, three red wines. It would be exhausting. It would be ... We s-, so, we were measur-, measuring little, you know, milliliters for, you know-

Spencer Christian:
(laughing) Right.

Doug Shafer:
... on 100 milliliter sample. You know, how much percent, 10 milliliters of that is five ... You know, it's just like, it was ridiculous. And we'd go all, for four or five hours, you're, you're not drinking, you're spitting, but you're still just exha- your pallet's exhausted.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And we'd come back and do it again the next day. And anything we decided it was like, your palette changes the whole thing. So we, we, we said, "This is just a waste of time. This doesn't make any sense. We can't do anything." And we kind of, uh ... I think it just happened. We didn't really plan it. We just started making blends early on. And so here's how it works, because we, we know our grape sources, and we have consistent grape source every year, we're pretty sure what grapes, what blocks go into which wines. But he's got, let's say it's got two different tanks of Cabernet from two different vineyards. They're both solid. They're not Hillside. They're definitely gonna be One Point Five. They're both tasting good. There's no problem. He's, he'll just pull them together right there. Right at harvest. Right after they're done fermenting and take it to barrels. And, you know, he'll have, uh, two tanks of Merlot and a small tank Malbec and a small tank of cab.

Doug Shafer:
And it's like, you know, these are all solid. This will, this will definitely be a TD-9, you know, start of a TD-9 blend. Let's put these four tanks together and take it to barrel. And then, and then he racks. And so now he's got, instead of having 13 ... Let's just use the number 13, 13 different lots of wine. He's got like about, five or six. You know, and then next time he racks, you know, five, six months later, you know, he'll fine-tune it and make the final blend and then take it to barrel and let that, let that final blend age for a good year plus in the barrel, which we really like to do. We like to have it married and going.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Um, Hillside Select gets blended right at the crusher. We know which, which Hillsides are going into Hillside and they're, they just become Hillside tanks right then, boom. So-

Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug Shafer:
... so Hillside Select is basically the blend is made by the time the wine goes to barrel, right, right, the vintage year. By Halloween, by Thanksgiving. And people are blown away by that. But, but that's, uh, that's kinda how we do it. So-

Spencer Christian:
That's amazing.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Spencer Christian:
It's, uh, it's fascinating stuff. Um, uh, Doug, uh, Doug. Dave, Dave Engen want's to now, uh, if ... So he says, "If Doug Shafer was stranded on a desert island and you had only one imported wine to drink until you got rescued, what wine would it be?"

Doug Shafer:
Wait, you said that was Dave Engen?

Spencer Christian:
Yeah, Dave Engen. Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Dave Engen, my buddy, my long-time buddy from Utah, now, California, who's sold Shafer wine forever in Utah, in-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... California all over. Hey, Dave, I miss skiing with you buddy in Utah. And I really like his question. It's like, the, w-, the one wine to drink before I got rescued. Usually it's like before (laughing) you die on a desert island. So-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... I like the rescue part. Um-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah. I like that part too. (laughs)

Doug Shafer:
Imported wine, you know, I'd have to go ... Oh man. 'Cause I'd wanna tell him about it. I'd have to go Flaccianello from, uh, Fontodi. Gion- Giovanni-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... Giovanni Manetti, who's in the heart of Tuscany, a wonderful guy makes great wines, Sangioveses.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
His winery is called Fontodi, but he has a special wine called Flaccianello. And-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... uh, I'd wanna drink that 'cause then I wanna get rescued and go see him and tell him about it.

Spencer Christian:
(laughs) What an-

Doug Shafer:
But-

Spencer Christian:
... what an amazing choice. I love that wine too.

Doug Shafer:
Good. Well, so how about you, Spencer? What would, ha-, what would you drink on a desert island?

Spencer Christian:
Well, you know-

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Spencer Christian:
... my, my love (laughing) affair and, and hoping to be rescued, as you said-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Spencer Christian:
... too, my love affair with wine, Doug, began with Bordeaux. Uh, and I was, I was seduced by a, uh, a bottle of 1966 Château Lafite Rothschild in the year 1976. And this was before I knew anything really about wine. And, but, you know, we now know that that wine was a great wine from a great vintage and it had 10 years of bottle age. And it just blew me away. So even though my, my love affair with wine includes all wines, I love all great wines from all regions, Bordeaux was probably still my favorite region. And because that was the wine that first stole my heart, I would take a bottle, a well aged bottle of, of Lafite Rothschild. However, much like you, Doug, I have totally fallen in love with the Sangiovese grape as it is grown in Tuscany.

Spencer Christian:
And, uh, well, I, I maybe next to a, a great bottle of Château Lafite or a great bottle of Shafer Hillside Select, I might go for, uh, just any great Brunello Di Montalcino.

Doug Shafer:
There you go.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
The '66 Lafite, huh? Wow.

Spencer Christian:
'66 Lafite. 

Doug Shafer:
God, I bet she was beautiful. (laughs)

Spencer Christian:
Well, yes. I can't ... I mean, do you have five minutes to tell you, uh, my-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Spencer Christian:
... experiences after-

Doug Shafer:
I want-

Spencer Christian:
... that wine?

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Spencer Christian:
I, my, my wife and I were taking a friend out to celebrate his engagement for the second time around.

Doug Shafer:
(laughing) Okay.

Spencer Christian:
And, um, we (laughing) were, we were at, uh ... He lived in Baltimore, so we had gone to a, a steakhouse in Baltimore. And I knew nothing about wine at that time, I had a curiosity about it. So I thought this great occasion demands a great bottle of wine, right. Celebrating my friend's engagement. So I looked at the wine list having no clue what I was looking for and picked the most expensive thing on the list. (laughs)

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Spencer Christian:
And the most expensive thing on the list was the '66 Château Lafite. So the server brings it to the table, pulls the cork out. The bouquet, lifted out of the bottle and pulled me in like I was a, like a cartoon character, you know -

Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.

Spencer Christian:
... in a full ... But, and when I took that first taste, I didn't even wanna swallow the wine. The, the sensations that were exploding in my palette were incredible. And that's how I fell in love with wine right there.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Spencer Christian:
So, yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Great story.

Spencer Christian:
And I began doing what you mentioned earlier, which is, you know, you find a wine that you like, and you learn about that wine or that region before you ... You know, you can't learn everything at once. You can't-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Spencer Christian:
... go to every ... So I started studying Bordeaux and fell in love with all the Bordeaux varietals. The next logical step was to f-, you know, learn as much as I could about Napa Valley Cabernet and, and, and Bordeaux blends. And then-

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Spencer Christian:
... I started branching out after that. But, but I digress. (laughs) So from, from Hugo Castro in, uh-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Spencer Christian:
... Miami, Florida says, um, "Doug. I can usually afford a purchase of just one or two bottles of Hillside Select each year. I consider myself lucky, by the way, uh. Given the limited amount of, uh, the limited number of bottles for each vintage, uh, what would you say is the appropriate cellaring time before opening the bottles?"

Doug Shafer:
Hugo, good question. I, um, I think cellaring time is a matter of personal taste, definitely. Um, pers- for Hillside, I usually like them nine, 10, 11 years after vintage. Um, I'm happy to say I'm old enough now that Hillside lasts 20 to 24 to 25 or more years, which is great. But I like them around nine or 10 years because they've got some bottle aged, some bouquets, some softness, some, uh, we call them secondary aromas kind of herbal and tea and-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... and, and tobacco. But still has, but at that point it still has some primary fruit, which I really love. So kinda that's me. But if you talk to Elias, my buddy here, you know, he's like, "No, no, I like him at 15, 18 years." He likes more age on them. So, you know, difference of opinions. Um, so you kinda, kinda go with your own gut and what you like.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
How about-

Spencer Christian:
And that's ... Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... how about you, Spencer? You like them old or young or in between?

Spencer Christian:
You know, I'm, I'm sort of like you, uh, Doug, I, I, I think, uh, I think my advice to anyone would be to go with your gut, but I'll go with your (laughs) palette. But, um, it, I think it depends on what type of wine you're drinking. For example, if I'm drinking Bordeaux, I like, I like them with at least 10 years of age. Sometimes more because, you know, that that's still how they make them over there. It's to be enjoyed at least a decade later. But if I'm talking about great Napa Valley cabs, uh, you know, I love your wine, as you know. I love, um, Groth Reserve.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Spencer Christian:
Uh, the-, those are wines that, uh, they, uh, they're beautiful when they, when (laughing) they're first released. So I like to sample them when they're young and then wait about eight to 10 years and then go back to them. And then maybe up to about like 14, 15 years. Yeah. So-

Doug Shafer:
How neat. Yeah.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah. It depends on what I'm drinking, you know. Um-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Spencer Christian:
... and, and as for Tuscany, I mean, I like old Brunello, but I like young Chianti Classico Riserva. So -

Doug Shafer:
You really are a wine geek. I love that. (laughs)

Spencer Christian:
(laughs) I love, I just love wine. I just ... And, and I love the people who make wine because everyone has got a story. You know, like your story is amazing, and, you know, Bob Mondavi’s story was amazing. Uh, everybody in the wine, uh, world has a story that's, that's different and, and yet fascinating.

Doug Shafer:
That's true. That's true.

Spencer Christian:
So on we go to Amanda Sund from Atlanta, Georgia. She says, "Is there any wine that you haven't tried yet that you'd like to try?"

Doug Shafer:
Oh boy, yeah, there's a lot. Um, so we're going back to ... Yeah, I know, I know where we're gonna go. We're gonna go to Burgundy. I've written by the vineyard on a bicycle, but I've never tried the wine. Um, Romanee-Conti's La Tache, the La Tache vineyard. I've never tried that.

Spencer Christian:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
I've never tried that wine

Spencer Christian:
You should.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Spencer Christian:
You should. (laughing) 

Doug Shafer:
I knew, I knew you'd say that. Damn you.

Spencer Christian:
You should.

Doug Shafer:
Spencer, you get all the-

Spencer Christian:
Let me tell you-

Doug Shafer:
... you get to have all the fun.

Spencer Christian:
Well, um, you know, h- here's the funny thing though. I, I, look, I love all great wines as you know, but I'm partial to the, to the Bordeaux grapes and I've never been a great lover of-

Doug Shafer:
That's right.

Spencer Christian:
... of Pinot noir. Yet, I have friends back in New York, you, you, you, you know, you, you, back in the East coast, when I was there, you could divide wine lovers into two groups. Either they were, they were Bordeaux lovers or Burgundy lovers. And one of my friends loved Burgundy. We'd always have these tastings and he'd bring a great bottle of La Tache or-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Spencer Christian:
... you know, some of the other DRC wines. So I got to taste all those wines without having to pay for them because (laughing) he brought them to the tastings.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Spencer Christian:
And they were, they were pretty remarkable. (laughs) Pretty remarkable.

Doug Shafer:
Nice.

Spencer Christian:
So I -

Doug Shafer:
How about you?

Spencer Christian:
... think of.

Doug Shafer:
What wine you haven't tried?

Spencer Christian:
That I haven't tried. Um, gosh, I've been so fortunate. I've -

Doug Shafer:
You've tried them all. (laughs)

Spencer Christian:
You know, uh, no, uh, (laughing) no. Um, uh, you know, I, there's some great wines from, from the, the, uh, Piamonte region of Italy, some of the great, uh, Barolos and, and Barbarescos I have not tried. Uh, and I love, uh, the way Angelo Gaja makes his wine. So I guess if I had to go for something I haven't tried yet, it would be Angelo Gaja's top of the line Barbaresco. That's what I would wanna try.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I'd-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... yeah, I'd like to try that one too. Yeah, I had a c- his ... He makes great wines.

Spencer Christian:
He's, he's amazing. He is amazing.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Spencer Christian:
Um, Bill, Bill Harkins, uh, want's to know, "Doug, can you talk about what role yeast has in wine. Does yeast, uh, help deliver an aroma that the winemaker is trying to achieve and how do you achieve consistency in your wines?"

Doug Shafer:
Um, good question. Yeast, well, yeast is the workhorse. Um, basically, you know, making wine is, is kinda like making bread, um, don't quote me. But-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... basically, you know, the, the yeast, uh, takes the sugars and, uh, from the grapes and, um, consume it and replicate and they, they give off heat, alcohol and, carbon dioxide gas. So basically without yeast, we can't make wine. Um, and there's different types of yeast, different strains. Um, some, you know, do better with certain white wines, certain red wines. It, I think it's very subtle and, and they do co- compart or they do give different flavors, but it's very, very subtle. I mean, it would be tough, I mean, it's tough for anyone to, um, discern. It's more of a ... Sometimes there's a textural feel they might, you know, one yeast might give to a wine compared to another. But it's again, super subtle. On that same vein, I think, I think he asked about consistency in wine. I mean-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... the, the most, the best thing for consistency for us in quality is quality of fruit. Um, so vineyards, which when we used to start out, no one paid too much attention to vineyards, I mean, that's where the action is. Because you've gotta have top grapes to make top wines. I mean-

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... El-, uh, our wine maker Elias in the summertime, he's in the vineyards two or three days a week just working and making sure things are getting done right to get the best grapes possible. Because if you, if the grapes aren't in tip-top great shape, there's no way he's gonna make great wines. Um, so it's, it's having that consistency of fruit year to year is, is what's important for consistency in top wine quality. That's what-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... that's our program. Yeah.

Spencer Christian:
You know, since you mentioned the fruit, uh, Doug, you know, I know it's become a cliche now, but, uh, people still tend to refer to California wines, especially in Napa Valley, uh, cabs as being more fruit driven than say their, their counterparts in Bordeaux or maybe Chile, uh, made from the same grapes. Is, is that because we have a, a warmer, longer growing season here or is it, does it have to do with catering to the American palette, which tends to like big, rich, robust flavors?

Doug Shafer:
Um, I don't think it's palette. I think it's what we're, what we're dealing with with our climate. Um-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... yeah, we're just a, a warm climate and we, our are grapes to g-, you have to get them ripe, um, to get the, uh, I call them non-green flavors. And, uh, and getting them ripe, usually it's higher sugar and it results in, you know, bigger, richer, fuller bodied wines. And it's just kind of a, uh, it's a, it has to do with place. And that's what's fun about the world of wine, is as you've spoken to, um, every place is different and, uh, that's, that's, what's fun about it. You know, um-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... Cabernet from Bordeaux is not Cabernet from Napa and there-

Spencer Christian:
Absolutely. Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... there differences and it has to do with, you know, the, the locations where they're grown. So it's, it's fun.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah, it's fun. That, that reminds me of something you were talking about earlier in the podcast. You were talking about your love of, uh, Chabu-, uh, Chablis and Sancerre. And, you know, you're talking about the, the Chardonnay grape, but yet the Chardonnay grape grown here, or maybe in Oregon, uh, has a, a different, um, character, a different, a different profile I guess.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, totally. That's why ... I mean, yeah, I'm really proud of the Chardonnay we make here. I really am. I like it. But man-

Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug Shafer:
... man-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... I would, you know, I'd do anything if I could make Chardonnay, like it tastes like a Chablis. I mean-

Spencer Christian:
You gotta make Chablis. Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... and I can't, and so I need to, you know, go buy some land there or something. I need to learn French.

Spencer Christian:
No, no, no, no, no, no, no more buying land. You've got enough. (laughs)

Doug Shafer:
No, no, no, why not? Why not? Wouldn't it be fun. Think I get to go to-

Spencer Christian:
It would be.

Doug Shafer:
... I get go to France a couple, three times a year, grow, you know, five acres of Chablis make a little ... It'd be so much fun.

Spencer Christian:
Well, only if you invite me over to do a little tasting once in a while.

Doug Shafer:
All right. The door's, doors, always open.

Spencer Christian:
Okay. (laughs) Here we go. For, uh, my Kevin Christie, uh, Boca Raton say, "What is your recommendation for building out a nice home wine collection, uh, regarding, uh, wine selection, variety of storage. Uh, and, and until I have a wine cabinet." So okay. So how do you build out a nice collection at home with regard to wine selection, wine storage, um, varietal. And he says, uh, "Any other advice for a home collector who's just getting started?"

Doug Shafer:
Well, I think, you know, the actual physical storage space we talked about earlier, basements, cabinets, you know, a little air conditioner if you got, so that's been covered, you know, until you get a, a wine cabinet. Um, but just again, try to keep the temperature consistent. As far as selection, I think you, you mentioned that earlier, Spencer, um, just the, you know, find, start out with wines you like that you really enjoy and then talk to a sommelier at a restaurant or a, a wine merchant. You know, wine merchants can be a lot of help. I mean, you go in and say, "Look it, I really liked this type of, this type of wine from this producer. I, you know, this varietal, you know, it's what else is like it?" And then they will steer you and give you some tips and, you know, so you try a bottle of that and a bottle of that say, "Yeah, I like that." Or, "I don't like." And, and talk to him about that. Go back and give the guy feedback, or the gal and say, uh, "It wasn't as much, well, good as ... I liked this other one first, but ..." And, you know, you know, and that way you can start to develop, um, kind of an awareness of different wines that are similar to the ones you started with. So I would start there and then kind of branch out slowly. And then, and if you find, uh, a merchant or a somm that you trust, um, say, "Hey, you know, give me something, you know, turn me on to something crazy that you think I might like." And, uh-

Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug Shafer:
... you're either gonna like it or not like it. And even if you don't like it and you'd paid money for it, you learn something 'cause you're not gonna go back (laughing) there again. Uh-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... and that's how you start out. And, uh-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... when you're out to dinner, you can, uh, you're, and that's another, uh, place to get ex-, you know, experience with different wines. Um, different wine shops have, you know, wine tastings. You know, the wine makers will come in and pour their wines on a Friday night or a Tuesday night. That's how-

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... and just in other words, get exposure to as many different types of wines as you can. And that'll, that'll, it'll start to happen. It happened to Spencer. (laughs)

Spencer Christian:
It did well. Well, what, what sage advice ... That's, that is a, uh, almost the story of my, my wine education, uh, Doug. And when I, you know, had, had that wine epiphany with the-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Spencer Christian:
... '66 Lafite I told you about, uh, I started going to visit this local wine, wine merchant whose, um, store was about a block or two from the ABC studio. So I worked in New York. And I would just hang out with him and-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Spencer Christian:
... talk about wine. He gave me such great advice and such great guidance and really contributed so much to my, uh, my learning process, you know, and to my appreciation of wine. So, uh, and, uh, I think any decent wine merchant is always happy to offer advice and to talk about wine with, with customers, right. Especially with, with, with newcomers, like, like I was at that time.

Doug Shafer:
And-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... and, and the other thing Spencer people forget about is, you know, there's no right and wrong answers. I mean, especially when-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... you're starting out and it's like, it's, it's a little bit overwhelming and, you know, it's just, this could ... You know, we shoot ourselves in the foot making it s- so special, special, special. You know, if, if somebody pours you a glass of wine and says, "Hey, this is the best thing in the world. You're gonna love this wine." And you don't like it, that's fine. You know-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... you know, you could actually tell them you don't like it. You, you might wanna be polite and not do that. But, but-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... but if you don't (laughing) like it, you, you, that's you, and that's your palette and you stick with that. You know, just because-

Spencer Christian:
That's true.

Doug Shafer:
... someone says this is the best thing since sliced bread, it doesn't mean you have to like it, you know, at all

Spencer Christian:
That's, uh,-

Doug Shafer:
... at all.

Spencer Christian:
(laughs) It is so true.

Doug Shafer:
I (laughing) mean-

Spencer Christian:
... so true. That's that's also true, uh, very often I think with food and wine pairing, don't you think?

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Spencer Christian:
You generally drink the wine you like with the food you like. I mean, you may not wanna have a glass of Chablis with a, with a, uh, a peppercorn steak, (laughs) but, but, you know, you know what I mean.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Spencer Christian:
You, you-

Doug Shafer:
I probably would.

Spencer Christian:
... maybe.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Spencer Christian:
(laughs) You might, you might start with that, but, uh, you know, you, you match the flavors you like with, and, and there are no hard and fast rules.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Spencer Christian:
And no one, no one should dictate you, to you what, what is good and what's bad, I guess.

Doug Shafer:
No, and, and if, and if anybody does, they're not worth your time. So just-

Spencer Christian:
I agree.

Doug Shafer:
... move on.

Spencer Christian:
Rich, uh, is it, is it Rich Haibah or Haibah, H-A-I-B-A-H?

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Spencer Christian:
... want to know, uh, when you bring in your Chardonnay grapes and, uh, in for crush, how long do you generally wait before pressing? Uh, what factors are you considering when deciding how long to macerate the white wine? Uh, are there any tests or sensory cues, uh, for this aside from just trial and error from year to year?

Doug Shafer:
Well, Chardonnay, we don't macerate. What we actually do with Chardonnay, is we bring the grapes in and we whole cluster press them. So the grapes were picked in the middle of the night. They're here by 5:00 or 6:00 in the morning. And we, and we load them right into the press, stems, the whole clu- ... It's called whole clusters, the whole cluster, stems and everything, right into the press. So it does not go through a destemmer and we press those clusters and get the juice. And it's nice and cool. And, uh, the juice goes into the winery and, you know, it begins its, you know, path to becoming wine with barrel fermentation. So, um, macerating is, uh, th- what that means is when grapes are actually c- crushed and pumped into a tank. It's juice and skins, it's called must, and it's usually done with red grapes. They'll macerate on the skins for a while before starting fermentation. Uh, white grapes, it's not done very often, but some people do do it. Um, I think, uh, some of the trendy orange wines, I think that's how they get them to be orange color. They s- they macerate on the skins for a while before they press them-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... and ferment. Yeah. Because, um, years ago in the '80s, when we first started out, that was the deal. There was no whole cluster pressing or very little of it. And most people put their white grapes through the crusher and made must if you will, uh, which is juice and skins. And then, um, I remember back then we'd either press it right away. We might let s-, uh, skin contact is what we called it. We might let it sit for six or eight hours and then press it. Um, I think the thought was to get more complexity, but over time we found that it was better just to get rid of the skins as fast as you can. So that's why we just-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... whole cluster and go with that. So-

Spencer Christian:
Got it.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Spencer Christian:
Got it.

Doug Shafer:
Kinda fun.

Spencer Christian:
Orange wine. Um-

Doug Shafer:
Well, orange, I was in, I was in somewhere in Europe in, uh, some wine bar, a trendy wine bar, and they were doing the orange wine thing, which is kinda different and kinda cool. And I said, I said to the guy, I said, "So tell me how they make this stuff." He was a wine guy.

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
And he says, "Well, they, you know, they crush it and they, they let it sit on the skins for, you know, eight or 10 hours." And I go, "I've done that." And he, (laughs)-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... he looked, he looked at me and he goes, "You have? You do?" I said, "Yeah, I did back in the '80s and it didn't work out very well. And the, the wine just didn't hold up." And he says, "Wow."

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
He looked at me like I was a, a pioneer. It was kinda cool.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Spencer Christian:
That's a great story. I love that. (laughs)

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Spencer Christian:
Uh, James Gallagher says, um ... Uh, here's a good one, Doug. "It's a month until the end of the world ..."

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Spencer Christian:
... "what ..." (laughs) It might be. (laughs). He says, uh, "What new world wine would you be drinking to close it out? And if the budget was $30 a bottle max, what's on your go-to list?"

Doug Shafer:
Oh man. Okay. So now we've got the end of the world. All right.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Um, yeah, you know, uh, I've only got six bottles of it left. Um, it would be the '70, the Shafer '78 cab. The first one my dad made.

Spencer Christian:
Wow.

Doug Shafer:
Which was the-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... great-grandfather to Hillside Select. Yeah, that's what I'd drink.

Spencer Christian:
Wow.

Doug Shafer:
I had a couple years ago. It's still holding up. It's amazing.

Spencer Christian:
It is? Yeah?

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Spencer Christian:
It is? Wow. What's, uh ... Describe it? What, what, what's what's the character like? Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Uh, it's just soft. It's really soft.

Spencer Christian:
Wow.

Doug Shafer:
What's, um, the nose is just, it's all secondary tertiary aromas. There's no fruit left.

Spencer Christian:
Oh man.

Doug Shafer:
The color's, you know, pretty, you know, pretty orange brown. Um, but actually it was, um, but the nose is, is, is, um, it's not like off, it's not weird, you know, it's, it's-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... it's fine. And the thing that was, really blew me away, usually with an older one like that, once you put in a glass and you smell it, it's like you've got about 30 seconds or two minutes and then just like, there's no-

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... there's no aroma.

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
Because-

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
... which is, it's just gone. Um, we had this, um ... It lasted for like an hour, smelling great, great for an hour. It was amazing. It was really cool.

Spencer Christian:
I had a very similar experience with, um, with an old bottle of Lafite Rothschild.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Spencer Christian:
Excuse me. I was (laughs), you know, older than what I described before. I, I was born in 1947, right.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Spencer Christian:
And, and, you know, everyone raves about the 1945, um, vintage in Bordeaux, but '47, it was also a phenomenal vintage in Bordeaux. So in the night- early, uh, it was the late '80s, early n- ... Yeah. It was the late 1980s. That's right. I, I had turned 40. I acquired, uh, a few bottles of the 1947 Château Lafite Rothschild. And, um, I remember my, my tasting experience, you know, the, the first one I opened, you know, I had that, that amber, rusty edge you were talking about.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Spencer Christian:
And it looked, it looks so light and kind of faded. And I thought, "Oh my gosh, what's this gonna taste like?" But it still, after 40 years had retained that, that elegant, um, Lafite bouquet, uh, and, uh, it tasted like nectar. It was just unbelievable.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Spencer Christian:
But, uh, but I guess I was lucky because you're, you're right, whether ... You, you, if you acquire a wine like that already 40 years old, you, you don't really know how it was stored-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Spencer Christian:
... and where it was stored. So, you know, it's, it's a gamble, but that, that was a gamble worth checking (laughs), you know, I wanna say.

Doug Shafer:
That's great.

Spencer Christian:
The other question, other question James had was, um, uh, if your budget is $30 per bottle, max, what's, what's on your go-to list?

Doug Shafer:
30 or less, you know, I don't drink it very much. I'd go for a really good-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... I'd really go for a really good rosé.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
That's what I'm thinking. Yeah.

Spencer Christian:
I guess, uh, uh, you know, there are, there are a couple of cabs out there. I don't know if they're still under 30, but the last time I had a bottle of Chad, C-H-A-D, Chad-

Doug Shafer:
Right, right.

Spencer Christian:
... Cabernet, it was about 29.99. So that's a-

Doug Shafer:
There you go.

Spencer Christian:
... it could be the one for 30 bucks. And I think Franciscan makes a pretty, a pretty nicely balanced Cabernet for about 30 bucks.

Doug Shafer:
There you go.

Spencer Christian:
All right. Brett Wa- Wagoner from Moraine, Ohio, um, says, "How did the fires in the past few years and especially the 2020 fires change wine-making and vineyard plantings and storage." Um, I'll give you that one first, 'cause he's got a couple more questions too.

Doug Shafer:
Brett Wagner, I know Brett Wagner. He lives in Ohio. I've not (laughs) ... Brett, how are you doing, buddy? Good to hear, good to not hear you, but to read your question here. Um, the fires were tough. They basically, um ... What we've gotta do is make sure, you know, we've got clearance around vineyards and clearance around winery buildings and homes, and, uh, that's been going on for a number of years now. So that's, that's important and keeping, uh, keeping fuel loads down, grasses mowed, you know, clearing out deadwood in the hillsides, that type of thing.

Spencer Christian:
Right.

Doug Shafer:
Um-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... it's, uh, it's, it's, it's a reality here. Um, it's not just a local problem. It's a state and nationwide problem, and there's been a lot going on with research on controlling it and control burns, and, you know, basically getting ahead of the situation so you don't have these, these massive fires. So, um, we're working on it. It's an ongoing issue for sure.

Spencer Christian:
Um, Brett also wants to know what you see on, uh, pricing on, on high end Napa wines over $100, uh, SRP, uh, doing over the next five years. And what does your wine tastes so good? (laughs)

Doug Shafer:
Well, as far as Brett's concern, if he's buying my wine, I'm gonna keep it way over $100. Come and get it.

Spencer Christian:
(laughing) Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... (laughs) 'cause that's, that's what I do for my good friends. No, (laughs) a special Brett price. Um, Napa cabs, Napa wines, over $100, um, even in these kinds of unsettled pandemic times, um, if it's a quality brand and the, and the, the wine's got the quality, it's gonna stay there. They're gonna stay above $100. This, uh, this is an expensive business. Um, it's, it's, it costs a lot of money to grow grapes. We don't get massive tonnages. So that's a, that's a challenge, uh, barrels are, barrel prices are going up. Labor, labor has gone up tremendously the last few years. It's not going down. Um, so I don't see, I don't see prices going down in a big way. I see ... And hopefully, I think they're gonna level, but, um, but, uh, the, the costs are here to stay. So, and why do our wines taste so good? Um, lucky. No.

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
Um, a lot of hard work. Um, I, I mentioned before, great grapes. You gotta have good grapes. You have to have a great grapes and then you've gotta, you know, just take care of them and, uh, don't mess them up, pay attention. There's a lot of details in winemaking, a lot of details. So-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... we've been fortunate.

Spencer Christian:
That's true.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah. So-

Spencer Christian:
You have indeed.

Doug Shafer:
There you go.

Spencer Christian:
Uh, from, uh, Marc Cardona in the Long Beach, uh, if you were starting Shafer Vineyards today, knowing everything you now know, how would you do it differently or would you do anything differently?

Doug Shafer:
(laughs)

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
Okay. Um, you know, the one that comes to mind is, uh, is equipment. Um, you know, we didn't have a lot of money in the beginning and, uh, you know, we were using secondhand crushers, stemmers. We were using, you know, funky pumps that, you know, work fine, but they just beat the heck out of the wines. They weren't gentle pumps. Um, the bottling line was just something we found in a garage somewhere. It was just like, you know, it was just like a, a rap trap. Uh, having better equipment would have been a ... You know, figuring out a way to afford better equipment early on would've helped because better equipment and technology we have found really helps you make better quality wine. Um, so, and then we f-, we found that out over the years as we started to make money, we could buy better equipment. It's like, wow, the quality is improving just because we have better equipment and technology. So that would be a-

Spencer Christian:
Sure.

Doug Shafer:
... big one.

Spencer Christian:
Sure.

Doug Shafer:
Um, I'd like to say I would have worried less, um, because I had-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... I have, I have and had, and still have, you know, not sleepless nights, but you, you wake up because your mind is racing. But I think it would have been nice to worry less, but I also think that's probably part of the deal. If you're gonna do it-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... you gotta be on it all the time. So not too many changes.

Spencer Christian:
Right. What, what about personnel, hiring, hiring and firing? (laughs)

Doug Shafer:
That's always a, (laughs), that's always-

Spencer Christian:
(laughs)

Doug Shafer:
... a, a challenge. Um, we're a pretty small winery. I've been actually really fortunate. I think I probably would've done things pretty much the same. We've had, you know, the average, average tenure of the Shafer employee is probably up to 15 or 16 or 17 years. I've got people here that-

Spencer Christian:
Wow,

Doug Shafer:
... they stay here-

Spencer Christian:
That's a big-

Doug Shafer:
... a long time. Yeah. We, in fact, we need to fi-, we need to find some young folks because we're all getting kinda old. (laughs)

Spencer Christian:
(laughs) Though a good, a good red wine helps preserve us though.

Doug Shafer:
No, we've been, we've been very fortunate. We've, we've had great, great people working here at Shafer and, and it's a team effort. Without them, we wouldn't be where we are. So we're very lucky that way.

Spencer Christian:
My question, Doug, is wha- what do you love most about doing this podcast?

Doug Shafer:
You know what I love the most, Spencer, is, um, just what you said earlier, it's the stories. Um, 'cause I've had people like you in here and, um, people I've know well, and all of a sudden we're in a conversation and I hear stories about good friends I've never heard before. You know, from-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... their childhood, from this, from that, they, they did this. They, you know, they, how they met their wife or husband. And, uh, it's, it's always just really fun. It's enjoyable. And, you know, we don't spend a lot of time talking about wine techie talk, which maybe some people would want. But, um, I think the stories and personalities are a lot more fun. So that's my favorite-

Spencer Christian:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... part without a doubt.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah, that, that ... My, my favorite ... Well, yeah, I mean, uh, other than just enjoying the taste and the aroma and the, you know, the, the, drinking the wine, I just enjoy being around people who appreciate wine and love wine. And, and as you said, have stories to tell that sort of enhance the enjoyment of the wine at another dimension to your understanding of the wine, you know. I think-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Spencer Christian:
... it's fantastic. Gosh, this has been so much fun. I'm so glad you inj- invited me to join you for this today.

Doug Shafer:
Well-

Spencer Christian:
This is ...

Doug Shafer:
... you're the best question man I've ever had. So if we ever do this again, you're, you're, um, so you're, you're the guy. So will come back?

Spencer Christian:
Don't say if we ever, just say when do we do this again.

Doug Shafer:
When we do it again. When we get the next backs of, batch of questions, we'll, we'll call you up.

Spencer Christian:
Yeah, absolutely.

Doug Shafer:
All right, Spencer. Hey, thanks so much for doing this, buddy. Great talking to you again.

Spencer Christian:
Thank you, Doug. I hope to see you soon.

Doug Shafer:
All right. Be good-

Spencer Christian:
All right.

Doug Shafer:
See you.

Spencer Christian:
Take care.

Doug Shafer:
Bye-bye.