Laura Catena

Full Transcript

Doug Shafer:
Hey, everybody, welcome back to another episode of The Taste. This is Doug Shafer, and, uh, I'm going to mention today's date, just because we're in some crazy times, it's Wednesday, April 15th, 2020.

Doug Shafer:
And, uh, our guest today is probably one of the most fascinating people we've had on this podcast. Laura Catena is, um, an emergency room doctor. She's author of two books, graduated Harvard, graduated Stanford, married, three kids. And on top of that manages her family's beautifully, wonderfully, big business in Argentina, and she lives in San Francisco. And I'm guessing she doesn't sleep much. Laura, welcome to the show.

Laura Catena:
Hi, Doug. Thank you.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Laura Catena:
Uh, I have, I have to make, uh, first correction is that I do sleep well.

Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Oh, okay.

Laura Catena:
Because as a doctor, you know, I've looked at the literature about sleep and basically, uh, sleep, not sleeping well is a source of all evil, you know, more cardiovascular disease, more strokes, more cancer. So, I actually make, uh, an important, uh, point to sleeping well.

Doug Shafer:
You know I'm glad you mentioned that, because my wife's been telling me that same thing for, uh, all our marriage, and especially the last-

Laura Catena:
(laughs).

Doug Shafer:
... the last few months, um, you know, especially on top of everything, um, it's like what can we do to help ourselves out, besides social-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... distance and wash our hands, but, you know, get enough sleep, get seven or eight hours-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... if you can.

Laura Catena:
Absolutely. Yeah, if you can get seven hours, uh, it really increases your chances of, of living a, a good long life, uh, almost more than anything else, you know, that and getting some exercise, and eating relatively well, and drinking wine in moderation, of course.

Doug Shafer:
Right, it's that moderation thing, I have trouble with sometimes, (laughs).

Laura Catena:
(laughs) Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
But, uh, so right now you got, you and family you're, uh, in San Francisco, correct?

Laura Catena:
Yeah, so I, I usually say that I live, uh, in both places. I, I, I'm, I've got the, the two places, I'm either in Mendoza or I'm here in San Francisco, and, you know, when I go there, I just go with my backpack, I've got my clothes there.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
Uh, the kitchen and, and I live with my dad when I'm there, which is super fun. I bring my kids and they hang out with him, and then here I live with my husband and, and my kids, and, and I really feel like I live in both places.

Doug Shafer:
It's, uh, but right now that can't happen, you're, you're stuck here, have you been-

Laura Catena:
No-

Doug Shafer:
... have you been home?

Laura Catena:
... in, in, no, no, in fact, uh, I, uh, I went to Argentina the beginning of the harvest in, in, in February-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
... and then I, I left to go to, ProWein, you know, the big, uh-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
... wine fair in Germany. And then, that was canceled and I was going to go back to Argentina and they, uh, did not want anybody from, uh, you know, the U.S. to go back to Argentina because at that moment, and still now, the situation with COVID is worse in the United States than in Argentina.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I was, I was scheduled to go to ProWein, too, it's this big German wine trade show.

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
International show. It's a great show, but, uh-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... that was canceled, as it should have been. ... but, uh, so how, you know, as a ... It's wonderful, you know, you already told us a little bit about, um, getting enough sleep and I know this is kind of a wine thing, and all that, but, um, as a physician, your whole view of this COVID situation and the virus, and, and what's going on right now, any particular views you have on what's going on? Or you feel good about, agree with what we're doing?

Laura Catena:
Um, well, you know, I can tell you that I have, in my whole professional career, and you know, I started medical school in 1988, uh, when I graduated from college. So I've been a doctor for a very long time. And I have never seen anything like this. Uh, however, I have seen a lot of epidemics go through of many kinds, you know. When I started, uh, my career, it was the time of the AIDS epidemic.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
And, and that was a real shock, uh, for all of us doctors. In fact, I had seriously considered studied infectious diseases, and then, I'm just too hyper, uh, so I chose the emergency department because I could run around.

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
Uh, but, but that was a, a big interest. And I actually ended up getting tuberculosis as a resident.

Doug Shafer:
Hmm.

Laura Catena:
Uh, when I was a resident in emergency medicine, um, there was a lot of tuberculosis because a lot of the patients with AIDS, who didn't have medications at the beginning, you know, there were, there were a few medications, but nothing really worked.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
So they would have, um, you know, other, uh, illnesses, and one of them was tuberculosis. And a lot of us, uh, ended up, um, converting to PTB positive and me and a few others, we actually had active tuberculosis, so I had to take medication. I have to be isolated. And, uh, you know, and there's a little piece of my lung missing.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.

Laura Catena:
And, um, you know, and that was, you know, as a doctor, you kind of think of this as, you know, part of the job. I mean, dying from it, that's extreme, you know.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
It's, it's not that common that doctors or nurses or people who work in hospitals, uh, you know, get something that they end up dying from. But in terms of this particular illness, uh, the COVID-19, you know, it's unprecedented. I've never seen anything like it. I do think that it will last quite a while.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
And, I do think it will overwhelm hospitals, not just for a few months, but, uh, for some time, because it's, uh, predicted that most likely it will come back in the fall. I think that social distancing will have to continue. And I also think that people who are at risk, people of a certain age, people with, um, previous medical conditions will have to be extremely cautious-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
... will have to not go out, uh, or maybe work from home, or really, you know, wear a mask, wear gloves, uh, be very careful. Uh, but I think eventually there will be, uh, treatment, you know, anti-virals-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
... as well as a vaccine. I mean, I think the whole world scientific community is working on this in an unprecedented way. So I, I am very confident that there will be a fix to this at some point.

Doug Shafer:
That's good to hear. I appreciate that. Um, my brother works in the medical field in, uh, a company that produces drugs. And, um, he sent me a summary of, of what's going on around the world. Like it's 30 different companies, worldwide, you know.

Laura Catena:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
This one in, this one in Dublin is working on this type of thing. This one in-

Laura Catena:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
... uh, Berlin, they're working on this, this aspect. So, it was very comforting, um, to see that these top, top think tanks, companies, research facilities are cranking. And, and he said everybody's working on all this stuff-

Laura Catena:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
... right now. So, you know, makes you feel a little better, and gives us all some hope. So, we will get through-

Laura Catena:
Absolutely.

Doug Shafer:
... it. And, um, it'll be changes for a while, but we'll figure it out. Just like, you know, doing a podcast from San Francisco to Napa.

Laura Catena:
(laughing)

Doug Shafer:
Now, you know, and we look at the silver lining. So now I can, instead of, um, you know, meeting some Italian winemaker in New York at the Wine Experience, I can just get him on the phone, in the middle of the night, and do a podcast with him.

Laura Catena:
Well, I do, I do think that in terms of the sustainability of all this travel that we do, to do wine tastings, and, and other people who, um, have to travel around to meet, uh, their suppliers, their customers-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
... I think that, uh, a lot of these, you know, Zoom wine tasting, Instagram live tastings, I think that some of this travel could, uh, pass to online travel, you know, virtual travel.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
And that would be better for the environment, because there would be, you know, a little less maybe airplane travel for business, but more for fun.

Doug Shafer:
Exactly. So that'll help the, uh, the whole global warming thing. So-

Laura Catena:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
... we've got to look for silver linings. And we will continue, the two of us, and-

Laura Catena:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
... and everyone else. So, let's, let's get to your story. Now you guys go way back. Your, your family story starts in Italy, is that right?

Laura Catena:
Yeah, so my great grandfather, his name was Nicola Catena.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
I gave his name to my daughter. Her name is, uh, Nicola.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
And he, uh, came from Le Marche to Argentina. He was the fifth son of an Italian family. And, uh, he, uh, lived in Italy and they had a small farm. They had some grapes. They made their own wine. They were farmers. He was the fifth son, so the fifth son usually didn't get anything.

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
Uh, you know, so he said, "I'm going to try my luck in Argentina." And so, he got on a boat. He was 18 years old.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Laura Catena:
And he came to Argentina and he planted his, uh, first vineyard four years later, after working, you know, wherever he could. And he planted his first Malbec in 1902. 

Doug Shafer:
Wow. So was Malbec a grape in Argentina? Do they bring it from Italy. Where, where'd that come from, the whole Malbec plant?

Laura Catena:
So, you know, there was a huge immigration to Argentina, uh, from Europe at the end of the 19th and early 20th century.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
You know, one of these immigrants was my great grandfather. And it was actually more Italian even than Spanish, but it was mostly Europeans from everywhere. There were also some people from Armenia, people from Russia, uh, you know, all parts of Europe who came to Argentina, uh, you know, looking for a better life.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
And, there were also some, some people from England, from Wales, you know, we had all the railroads established by the British, so we actually have a lot of, uh, British immigrants to Argentina, you know. Some of them also went to Patagonia. The Welsh to farm with sheep, they had, the, Argentina was a big producer of, um, of wool-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
... at that time. And, uh, so a lot of Italians, more Italians than Spanish, so that 70% of the Argentine population has Italian heritage.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Laura Catena:
And so you think about during the, the independence from Spain, there were 500,000 people in Argentina during this big immigration, six million Europeans came. So, uh, you know, a lot of, uh, Argentines are you know the grandkids or great grandkids of immigrants, you know.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). There you go. Okay.

Laura Catena:
They brought Italian varieties, French varieties. But nobody really knows why did Malbec become so important in Argentina. Because by the time my, uh, grandfather, my great grandfather arrived, there was already a lot of Malbec planted and it was already considered sort of the, you know, the grape to make a high quality wine. And I think the reason is simply that Malbec, uh, did well in Argentina. Because it likes the sunlight, it doesn't like a weather that's too hot. And you know, um, in Argentina you have some very warm areas, but you also have the, the cooler areas in the Uco Valley, uh, the Lujan Nicasia the clay soils. And, uh, the Malbec just does well in Argentina. You know, you can plant Cabernet Sauvignon only in some areas. Pinot Noir, I don't know, Syrah-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
... you know, there's many varieties planted. But Malbec will make a delicious wine almost anywhere, you know-

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Laura Catena:
... it'll make more class wines that can be aged and, you know, hundred point wine, in only some places, you know, those are really special places. But that pretty much anywhere you plant it, it will be a delicious wine.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
And I think that it was mostly that it just did well. And so that's why it was so widely planted. And that was, uh, you know, when my, my great grandfather arrived, um, I don't think that much was known about Malbec, but that's what he decided to plant.

Doug Shafer:
So he decided to plant. So the business, so he was a grape grower. Was he making wine, also?

Laura Catena:
So when he started, uh, he planted Malbec. He also really liked Bonarda.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
Which it turns out, it's charbono. But when the Italians came, they thought the taste was very similar to Italian Bonarda, which would always get confused with Dolcetto. And, uh, they thought it was Italian Bonarda. And they were quite happy because they were Italian and they wanted something Italian to plant. So, along with Malbec, there was a lot of Bonarda planted, which is actually the same as Charbono. But, Charbono is Charbono de Savoie, and Savoie was Italian until the 19th century, when it became French.

Laura Catena:
So you could see that it's a sort of-

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
... you know, Italian grape as well. So, he liked both varieties.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
Um, and, uh, he planted both. We, we actually make a, a very, uh, good Bonarda that's sold, uh, mostly in Latin America and Argentina named after him, Nicola Catena Bonarda.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
But, uh, but, uh, Malbec is, is probably more what we're about to talk about, uh, today, because it's really kind of the variety that's made my country famous, my, my family well-known. So he started as a grape grower. He had many vineyards and my, uh, he actually went ... I'll tell you a funny story. So when he, uh, died, um, or actually no, in life, he was very proud to say, uh, that he had left, uh, a winery and a vineyard to each one of his sons. And there was this, this great picture- ... of him and his wife, uh, Anna Moschetta de Catena, with the three daughters and the three sons. And I remember once asking my father to tell me about this photo, when it was taken. And he say, yeah, he, he was proud to have left the winery and the vineyard to his three sons. And I said, "Well, what did he leave for his daughters?"

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
And he said, and he, my father said, "Well, he was very proud to have found a good husband for each one of them."

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
And I said, "Okay, Dad, uh, that's not going to work for me, because I found my own husband. I want a winery and a vineyard, too."

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
You know, and, and, and it was kind of-

Doug Shafer:
But that was your great ... That was your great grandfather. That was his-

Laura Catena:
That was my great grandfather-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Laura Catena:
... but, but those were the days.

Doug Shafer:
Uh-huh.

Laura Catena:
That's, that's ... The best thing you could do for your daughter was to, to make sure she, she married a good man.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
I, I think, I think you could argue that, that if you can help your kids, which is arguable, to ... The, the, the, the men to meet a great woman and the woman to meet a great man, that, that, that is a great service, if you can help out in any way. Although I think that mostly you can help out by staying out of it.

Doug Shafer:
Stay out. Trust me on that one. Yes. Staying out of it is the best way to go.

Laura Catena:
(laughing)

Doug Shafer:
That's been successful for me. Um-

Laura Catena:
Yeah. Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... that's exciting. So, so, he had ... So your great grandparents had six kids, three boys, three girls. Obviously one of the boys, who was your father.

Laura Catena:
Uh, so no, so one of the boys was my grandfather.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
Domingo-

Doug Shafer:
I mean your grandfather.

Laura Catena:
So one of the boys was and my great grandfather

Doug Shafer:
That's right. That's right.

Laura Catena:
And, and he was the oldest son, because it was the always the oldest son to the oldest son.

Doug Shafer:
Okay. Right.

Laura Catena:
The oldest son. Uh, and then he, um, you know, kind of brought his siblings out and, and, and, you know, he was the most successful of, of them, you know. Uh, I mean, Argentina, uh, you know one thing to say about Argentina is we are resilient and we're used to things going badly. And you know, even with the coronavirus, it's, you know, it's a big hardship. People are very scared, but you know, we've been through so many bad things with the economy. I mean, we had 1,000% inflation at one point, you know. We've had a, a week where we had, uh, five presidents.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Laura Catena:
We've had military governments. Uh, we've had so many things happen, uh, and you know, at the revolution where, you know, it was one to one. The dollar and the peso was one to one. Then, you know, the next week, it was one to five. Uh, you know, now it's-

Doug Shafer:
Oh.

Laura Catena:
... one to 60.

Doug Shafer:
I, I know-

Laura Catena:
Uh-

Doug Shafer:
... I was going to ask you about that a little later. I mean, you've just ... It's like I hear this and anyone knows about Argentina a little bit. It's like, you know, some really challenging, challenging years over the last-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... century. And-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... and, uh, and here you've, you're family has this wonderful successful business. How do you, um, navigate? How do you manage when, when you have three or four presidents in the span of a week and, and-

Laura Catena:
You know-

Doug Shafer:
... wild inflation and all these things, and, um, you know, military this and that. I mean-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... the, the unknown. I mean, we're all living with this unknown right now.

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And, and you know-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
How do you guys do it?

Laura Catena:
You know, my dad and I, uh, we always say that we kind of get invigorated by bad times, which is, it was just a horrible thing to say. But, you know, uh, and I think that, that might be a little bit of why I decided to study medicine, because I like hard things. I want to fix hard problems. And you know, our winemaker, Alejandro Vigil, our head winemaker, he's kind of the same way, you know. The harder things are, the harder he works.

Laura Catena:
And Argentine people as a whole are, are used to working through harsh ... I mean, I think all people have hardship, uh, you know, uh, I mean, right now-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Laura Catena:
... the whole world is having hardship. And, uh, and I ... But I think that Argentines are particularly resilient, because, uh, you know, so many things have happened. And then so continuing with the family story.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
Then my, my grandfather, uh, started to run the business and he planted more vineyards. He built several wineries. But he actually was mostly selling his wine and they would send it in these big, uh, barrels, uh, to Buenos Aires-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
... in the train, uh, where they would be bottled by separate people. It was almost like the French negociant model of the 19th century.

Doug Shafer:
Right. That's-

Laura Catena:
Where, you know, the chateaus would make the wine and then somebody else would bottle and sell it.

Doug Shafer:
Right. And sometimes-

Laura Catena:
And, uh-

Doug Shafer:
... the same wines came bottled in four or five different places. Yeah.

Laura Catena:
Exactly. And, and my grandfather was actually known because he made the best blends. And he had this blend called Tinto Buenos Aires, that mean, that means Buenos Aires Red. And it was, you know, the, the high end wine at all the fancy restaurants in Buenos Aires. But then my father came along and he said, "Hey, I'm tired of, of having somebody else sell all the wine" and do all the, the, you know ... the, the selling. We need to do that. And so, my dad actually, uh, was the one who really moved to, you know, make your own wine, selling all wines, uh, selling it inside Argentina. Uh, but you know, we had a huge domestic market because, uh, you know, Argentines are all descendants of Italian, Spanish, primarily, French. Uh, and you know, what did those people drink with lunch and dinner? Wine. And, you know, when I was a kid in Argentina, people had wine with lunch and dinner every day-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
... in moderation, you know. But, but that was ... It is our national beverage. So, when we-

Doug Shafer:
So you were selling, you're selling at that point in time, you're selling most of your wine domestically in Argentina?

Laura Catena:
Yeah. Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
But we did have, uh, we did have a, some high end wines that we sold that were collected, but it was really mostly in Argentina. And then, uh, you know, it was actually my father leaving Argentina, uh, that, that inspired him to, to, to start the exports. And, when, when he ... He actually left during the military government in the early 80s, my uncle was actually kidnapped.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.

Laura Catena:
And my, my father had to negotiate the release. You know, he was kept in a closet for a week and it was horrible.

Doug Shafer:
Oh.

Laura Catena:
And my, my father was worried about our whole family. And so he left Argentina and, um, and so, so going ... Go ahead, go ahead.

Doug Shafer:
Was he at the, was he at the, was he at the winery then? Was he working at the winery, your dad?

Laura Catena:
Yes. So he was working-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Laura Catena:
... at the winery. He was going back and forth between Buenos Aires, where the sales were-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
... and Mendoza, like my dad basically, you know, lives in two places, except for him it's Buenos Aires/Mendoza. For me, it's San Francisco-

Doug Shafer:
Got it.

Laura Catena:
... Mendoza. And, um, and-

Doug Shafer:
So I wondered, so he ... Because I read that he came to California in the 80s, your dad.

Laura Catena:
Yeah, well, so actually my dad's history with the U.S. dates back a little further.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
So, when my dad was a student, his mother was the headmaster of the local little country school. She wanted everybody to, to have an education. And she had told my father, "I hope you're not going to go work with your dad in the, the winery business, you know, you need to be an academic."

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
And, uh, you know, my dad was a very studious kid. He, he was very ... He's really smart person and, and just a very open mind. And, you know, he was the top student. And he actually wanted to study, uh, physics or chemistry.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
And, you know, had no plans to work with his dad. Kind of like me, not that I ever ... I don't think I'm as smart as he is, but I also had no intention of working in the family winery when I was, you know, growing up.

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Laura Catena:
And he had planned to go to the U.S. to study.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
And, then his mother sadly died in a car accident, with his grandfather, uh, very, very sad story. Uh, and so, all of a sudden, my grandfather is left with no wife, no father, you know, who worked with him-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
... at their winery, and my dad's in school. Uh, actually, he's, he's in, uh, his last year of high school. And, with these plans to go study abroad, because, uh, you know, he was such a good student, he would certainly be offered a scholarship-

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Laura Catena:
... somewhere in the U.S., uh, where he wanted to go, you know, with all the, all these Nobel Prizes and that, that was his dream. And so he basically had to stay because his father went into depression-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
... you know, with what happened, and so he ended up, uh, deciding to study economics because it was what he could study locally, that was at a good level, helping his father. So he started, you know, kind of working and going to school. Um, he finishes economics, but then the business was somewhat stable and he, um, he decided to go to study in the U.S.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
And he decided to go to Columbia, where he was accepted in economics, uh, because he would be able to fly to Argentina. And so, that's, that's when I actually, uh, went to New York when I was two years old with my brother, my mom and my dad. And that was his first entry into the U.S. And the reason he also studied economic and why he wanted to study, uh, in the U.S. was that he wanted to fix the Argentine economy, you know. My dad was determined, yes, he wanted to make wine. He needed to feed his family, but he wanted to help Argentina because as we all know, Argentina is a country of riches. You know, we have all these port entries, you know, through rivers. We have, you know, metals. We have farming. We have, uh, oil. Uh, we have incredibly motivated smart people.

Laura Catena:
And, and everybody in the world is always asking themselves, why is this country such a mess?

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
(laughing) When we have all these riches.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
And so my father was determined to help Argentina. So we go to the U.S., then we come back, then he continues, uh, to work with his dad in, in the winery. He actually founded a university-

Doug Shafer:
Ahhh.

Laura Catena:
... in Argentina.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Laura Catena:
But then comes the military government. So then up again-

Doug Shafer:
That was, that was around what year was that?

Laura Catena:
So he-

Doug Shafer:
Into the 70s.

Laura Catena:
... went to Columbia in the early 70s.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
Then he came back, uh, because he had to come back. His dad needed him.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
Then, then it's the military government. He goes back to California. And that's where he, uh, with my mom, they're living in Berkeley, because he was a visiting scholar at Berkeley. And I was going to high school there. That's how, um, I learned English-

Doug Shafer:
Ahhh.

Laura Catena:
... relatively well. Because I didn't speak English that well before.

Doug Shafer:
So you were in-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... high school in Berkeley. Okay.

Laura Catena:
Yeah. Yeah. So my dad actually had to teach himself English before going to Columbia.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Laura Catena:
Which is very admirable, I think.

Doug Shafer:
He's a sharp guy. Everything I'm hearing about this guy.

Laura Catena:
Yeah. He's-

Doug Shafer:
And he's ... Yeah.

Laura Catena:
... he's ... And he's not scared, uh, you know, the, the harder the challenge, the more determined he is. So, so anyhow, he and my mom come and my sister, my little sister, Adrianna-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
... we have a famous vineyard named after her. I think you've tasted the wines when we were in Naples-

Doug Shafer:
Yes.

Laura Catena:
... together.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Laura Catena:
Um, you know, so she's born in Berkeley. And he's, uh, decides to go with my mother to see what's going on in the Napa Valley. And all of a sudden, he hears about the Judgment of Paris and these crazy Californians who are saying, hey, we're going to make wine here in California, as good as the best French wine.

Doug Shafer:
Robert Mondavi, that was his-

Laura Catena:
Robert Mondavi.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Laura Catena:
That was his thing. And he had grown up in a family where his father, my grandfather, loved Malbec. He would go to Europe, he used to come back and he said to my father, "Listen, Malbec is as good as any French wine." But my great grandfather, Nicolas, the original Italian immigrant, would say to my dad, "You know what, don't ever challenge the French. They own-

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
- the top wine. You know-

Doug Shafer:
He said don't challenge the French.

Laura Catena:
... we need to make-

Doug Shafer:
I love that.

Laura Catena:
Don't challenge the French. We make simple wines and we have our Argentine consumer and we're ... I'm so lucky to have come to Argentina where we have tons of steak.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
You know, he ... My great grandfather used to eat a piece of steak raw every morning for breakfast, to remind-

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Laura Catena:
... himself of how lucky he was. Because actually-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
... uh, meat was cheaper than pasta-

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Laura Catena:
... back then.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Laura Catena:
It's not now. Now it's a little more expensive.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Laura Catena:
But it's still fairly inexpensive, uh, you know, uh, beef in Argentina is still fairly inexpensive. So, so my father had grown up thinking, you know, don't ever even think of challenging the French.

Doug Shafer:
Got it.

Laura Catena:
I know it'll sound ... He goes to California and, and these crazy Californians are saying, yes, we are going to. And then there's this Judgment of Paris. So, my father, after a couple of years, you know, the military government leaves. He decides to come back to Argentina. And he says, you know, if these Californians can do it, I'm going to try to do it, too. But that's the time where Chile is doing really well. We're not, you know, we're talking the-

Doug Shafer:
That's right.

Laura Catena:
... 80s.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
And, you know, everybody in Argentina is saying, we need to follow Chile. Which by the way, produces a lot less wine than Argentina, but they don't have a domestic market. So you know, they were exporting everything-

Doug Shafer:
They were exporting everything, yeah.

Laura Catena:
... they're doing really well with the low end. And everybody in Argentina is saying, we need to do the same as Chile. And my dad says, "Uh-uh, no, I am going to go the California way. I am going to try and make wine from Argentina that can stand with the best of the world." And he actually basically sold off anything he had that was not for high end production, for high quality. And he spent several years just studying the the terroir, going to these cool climate areas where you can get more minerality, you know, Winkler's zone two and one, you know, cooler climate, cooler nights, lots of sunlight.

Doug Shafer:
What-

Laura Catena:
You know, more-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, the whole thing.

Laura Catena:
... less fertile ... Yeah, like less fertile soils, you know, we have these alluvial soils that have limestone, that are stony with good drainage. And he, um, he realized that, uh, you know, at first, actually, he thought maybe what he needed was a bunch of, you know, fancy German presses and, and, the nice temperature control and stainless steel and the good French oak barrels.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
But, he realized, you know, after some time, that he also needed to go to some newer areas. And you know, that's when in 1992 we planted the Adrianna Vineyard, which is basically in a place where, uh, he was told that the vine would not thrive.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
That maybe you could ripen Chardonnay. But never Cabernet, never Malbec. And we actually make some incredible Cabernet up there, because-

Doug Shafer:
Well, I, I've got to interrupt you for a minute.

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
So he comes back-

Laura Catena:
Yeah, yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... from California. He says, "I'm going to go this quality route. No one's doing this in Argentina. Let's go."

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
What did you ... Because I'm assuming at that time your granddad was still kind of running the whole show, right, or was he ... Had your dad-

Laura Catena:
Well, no-

Doug Shafer:
... taken over?

Laura Catena:
You know, I mean, my dad sort of took over at the age of 20.

Doug Shafer:
Ahhh.

Laura Catena:
And, and-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
I have to say that, you know, my dad, uh, we, we all get kind of annoyed at my dad, because he'll be like, "Well, when I was 25, I was-

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
... like ... I could remember all the growers and all the prices and all of this." And you know, um, we have, you know, a, a CEO for all our businesses and you know, the CFO, and the winemaker. And we're like, okay, we know that when you were 20 years old, we could do this, but we can't.

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
(laughing) So, uh, so I was like, "Okay, Dad, I need to look this up in my computer, because I don't have the brain you had as a 20-year-old, or, you know, as a 52-year-old, which is the age I am now." So, you know, I, I, um, so when he, he pretty much started and, and took over from his father and-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
... basically, you know, his father worked for him and, and I have to say, we, we have a, a nice way in our family of doing this, because you know, even if, you know, my dad is, still runs a lot of things, you know, he, he will gladly say he works for me. He basically tells me, "What do you need me to work on," and he does that. And you know, he has no problem with me telling him, "Hey, stay out of this. I got it covered. Uh, but I'd love for you to help me with this."

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
And that's what he did with his father. And, um, you know, it comes from, from a, a place of incredible mutual respect, you know. My dad can do everything I can do. Well, you know, the one thing that is hard for him is traveling and speaking in public.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
Uh, he does not like that.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
So that, that's the one thing that, that's a little easier for me. But everything else, I mean, he's incredible, uh, and we work together. And, uh, you know, and as, you know, I've gotten older and I have more experience, there's more things that I, you know, only ask him for advice if I need a, a, uh, some advice.

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Laura Catena:
Uh, but, uh, he did the same thing with his father, except that I did it when I was 40, and he did it when he was 21. (laughing)

Doug Shafer:
(laughing) That's, you know, it's just, it's, it's so good to hear, a, a, a family, you know, mutual respect, love, caring, uh, egos get left outside the door.

Laura Catena:
Oh, yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Just, and, and the, and the goal is for the common good. I've got, uh, listening to your story, I have a, one I've got to relate. It's pretty cute. With my father, who we lost a year ago, but he lived to 90.

Laura Catena:
I know.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, and it's all right. So 94. Had a great, great life, but-

Laura Catena:
Oh, what a great life-

Doug Shafer:
It was great.

Laura Catena:
... 94.

Doug Shafer:
And you know we had 35, 6 years together, which I never thought we'd be working together when I was a kid. And we, and it just happened.

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And it was wonderful and, and all those good things. But near the end of his life, he was probably, he was probably about 93. I went into his office one day and said, "Hey, Dad," I said, uh, "I need some advice." And he was looking at his computer and he turns around and he goes, he looks at me and goes, "No, you don't. You're just saying that to make me feel good."

Doug Shafer:
And I said, I said, "No, that was last week when I came in. But today, I really need some advice." (laughing)

Laura Catena:
(laughing)

Doug Shafer:
So that was a good laugh.

Laura Catena:
That's true, yeah.

Doug Shafer:
But, uh-

Laura Catena:
No, I mean, I, I still, you know, my dad's, um, just turned 80 last year and, uh, you know, there's a lot of difficult things that, uh, there's no way you can decide them on your own. And, and I like to think of the Socratic Method, where, you know, we're, we're discussing something and we'll each present our argument. And then there's always a winner, like there's always one argument that wins. And then we go, we, we go with it. We both go with it.

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Laura Catena:
But, uh, we often have to start at opposites to reach a better solution. And, uh, I, I do the same thing with our staff, you know.

Doug Shafer:
Hmm.

Laura Catena:
Uh, I always say to people that work with me I don't want people that say yes. Like, I, I really can't work with people that agree with everything I say, because there's no possible way that I'm right. Even most of the time. So, you know, from challenging ideas, uh, come the best ideas. And, and I think that works really well with family when, when, you know, because you do know that you both have the exact same objectives at hand. And also, you know, you're not always thinking of the immediate profit. And that is one thing that I think family, uh, companies in general have in common. And the people who work for you kind of get bathed in that same culture and they also start thinking of, you know, what happens 20 years from now. Or what, what I like to challenge my team is a hundred years from now, you know. That's my goal. I want to be making wine as a family winery and you know, elevating Argentine wine for another hundred years. Can we do that?

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Laura Catena:
But to do that, we need to start now.

Doug Shafer:
Exactly. That's the long-term view. So-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
So, your father, um, I hope in Argentina he's recognized as being the guy that really bring quality to the forefront. I hope, I hope he has that recognition.

Laura Catena:
Yeah. No, he, he is, he is loved in Argentina, revered. I mean, he goes to restaurants and people want selfies with him.

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
And-

Doug Shafer:
Great.

Laura Catena:
... oh, my God, it's, it's the sweetest thing to go with him anywhere when people recognize him. And he's so humble and, um, just oh, the nicest person. Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
That's great. So let's, let's talk about you. But before you, how'd your, how'd your mom and dad meet? How'd that happen?

Laura Catena:
Oh, well, they were actually students together and they, they both tell a different story.

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
And I actually ... I believe more my mom's side than my dad's. So you know, my dad basically claims that my mom was like desperate for him. And, and-

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
... actually, uh, the, the ... My mom tells the story that one time he wanted her to talk to him, so he, he fake dropped his glasses.

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
And then, pretended he was blind and she helped him. And, and so, he claims that that's when she fell in love with him. And she, she was actually thinking like, oh, my God, poor guy, like more feeling bad for him and-

Doug Shafer:
(laughing) I got to help this guy out. That's-

Laura Catena:
Exactly. And, you know, and so, yeah, but, um, they met when they were in university. And, and my dad always likes to remind us all that, you know, as much as he was the top student, she was the top student. Then I'm like, "Dad, stop saying that to my kids, because they might not be the stop student."

Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.

Laura Catena:
You know (laughing). Uh, I don't want them to think that the only position in life is as the top student. Um, but, uh, you know, they were both students, uh, at the University of Mendoza. And my mother actually runs a software company-

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Laura Catena:
... and, uh, you know, she has her own separate business. But she did help in the early days of Catena, you know, uh, selling, um, our wines in the U.S., you know, when Paul Hobbs, uh, was our consultant for several years.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
And actually my mom and Paul Hobbs would go around bringing the wines because, you know, my dad's kind of shy. And he, you know, he didn't ... He, he also thinks his English is really bad. And his English is actually perfect. He has an accent, but you can understand him perfectly.

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Laura Catena:
My mother speak English very fluently and she's also very gutsy. She's, you know, she has no fear of anything, um, and so she actually helped with the initial launch of the wines. And there's a famous story of my mom, uh, that actually was told to me by a customer, where she went in and, uh, she asked the customer. First, you know, would you like to taste my Chardonnay? And he asked about the price and the price was, you know, we're talking about, you know, early ‘90s, uh, was, uh, $15. And you know, the, the, the customer said, "Well, I'm not buying an Argentine Chardonnay for $15," you know, retail. And so she said, "Okay, well, what's your best Chardonnay you have?" And so the guy is like, "This one." So she, she said, "Okay, let's brown bag it." And she-

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
... she had the guy compare it. And she claims that after she did this, she kept on repeating it, and she claims we always won. You know, I don't know, in this particular case, this customer confirmed my mother's story, that our wine won. And so he decided to carry a very expensive Argentine Chardonnay and to sell it, you know, to hand sell it, because nobody knew Argentine could make great Chardonnay. And, uh, so my mom really was out there in the early days and I think that it was, it was very important. You needed a gutsy person back then.

Doug Shafer:
Well, she sounds like her daughter, the two of you.

Laura Catena:
(laughing)

Doug Shafer:
(laughing) I tell you.

Laura Catena:
Yeah, we, we, we have a lot in common.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Laura Catena:
Uh, yes.

Doug Shafer:
I think so, and that's a compliment. Um-

Laura Catena:
Thank you.

Doug Shafer:
... so you're born and raised in Argentina. You have brothers and sisters?

Laura Catena:
Yes, so I have, uh, my brother Nesto-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
... who actually makes his own wine. He is all organic, all biodynamic. You know, the Adrianna Vineyard is organic. Uh, we focus on organic and sustainable. But he is all about, uh, biodynamics, uh, he, um, is an artist. Uh, very talented person.

Doug Shafer:
Hmm.

Laura Catena:
Uh, he, uh, sells a lot of wine also in Argentina. Like you can't go to a restaurant in Argentina without seeing one of his wines. He makes a wine called Tikal, uh, Alma Negra. Uh, his wines are sold in the U.S. as well. Um, and he kind of likes to run his own, uh, production, his own project. And, uh, my, my dad has been very supportive, um, with that. And, and for me, I, I kind of started as apprentice and did apprentice for 20 years.

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
You know, so, we, we ... My brother and I are a little bit different and my brother wanted to be independent from day one.

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Laura Catena:
And that's worked really well for him and for us, because my brother has done so many interesting things with wine that, uh, you know, that contribute to the interesting-ness of our family. I think it's, it's boring when, you know, you're only doing one kind of thing. Um, although I wouldn't say that anything at Catena is boring, you know, we're very dynamic.

Laura Catena:
And then my sister, Adrianna, she actually studied in, uh, in, at Berkeley.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
History. And then she went to Oxford for her PhD in history.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Laura Catena:
And she's, uh, was teaching at Warwick in England. She lives in London. But, uh, this year, uh, later this year, she's going to start working with us. And she actually started on her wine project call, called El Enemigo with our winemaker. They, they have their own, uh, winery. And this wine was one of the two first winners of 100 points from Parker-

Doug Shafer:
Oh, wow.

Laura Catena:
... for a, a Cab franc. So, so, despite being a historian and living in London, you know, this project that she's worked on with our, our head winemaker has done really, really well. And she also helped design, uh, she was the idea person for a new label we have, Malbec Argentino with the Four Women, telling the story of Malbec. Have you seen that label?

Doug Shafer:
Not yet, no.

Laura Catena:
I think you have ... No? So, Malbec Argentino, uh, tells the story of the Malbec variety on the label. It's beautiful. You should, you should look it up.

Doug Shafer:
I'll look it up.

Laura Catena:
It's four women. The first one is Eleanor of Aquitaine, the second one represents the Italian immigrant to Argentina, represents my great grandmother. Then the, the third woman is phylloxera, which actually phylloxera mostly exists in the female form. That's partly why they couldn't get rid of it, because they couldn't stop the reproductive cycle.

Doug Shafer:
That's right. All the mutations.

Laura Catena:
And then the, so, so it's a, uh, a third female figure. And then the fourth female figure is my sister. She wanted to be me, but I decided it was her.

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
And then inside the label, there's like references to Cahors in in France, to- ... you know, to the court of Eleanor of Aquitaine. And that has become a label and she is a historian and came up with this whole idea. And it's been a very successful label. So, it, it does ... It is good to have a historian in the family.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, no, it's great. It's a great story. You've got to have stories.

Laura Catena:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
And you, you guys have a lot of them. That's super. So-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... that's, that's exciting she's coming back. So, you were, you were born in Argentina, but you, you said you were up in Berkeley. Was Berkeley-

Laura Catena:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
... high school for you?

Laura Catena:
So I actually went to, uh, CPS. I don't know you've heard of it, it's college prep.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
So it's, it's a private school, uh, in Berkeley. And, uh, and then you know, I started. I, I mean, my English was quite bad. I remember getting up in, in the blackboard to, you know, when they ask you to write something. And I wrote "Who," H-O-O.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Laura Catena:
You know, for like, you know, who did this?

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
And I remember everybody looking at me with this look in their faces of fear, like because they didn't want to laugh. And I remember the teacher like, you know, gently correcting me. So I started out-

Doug Shafer:
Hmm.

Laura Catena:
... you know, spoke English relatively well. Couldn't write it very well. Uh, and I started, uh, I was in, uh, tenth grade. Well, I started in ninth and then my parents had to go back to Argentina, so I kind of skipped a grade. And then I went to Harvard, where, you know, I had absolutely no intention of working with my dad. I loved-

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
... both science and humanities.

Doug Shafer:
That's right.

Laura Catena:
And then, kind of went for the science, because I thought I was more precise. And then, you know, I wanted to do something to help people, so I said to myself, you know, "Medicine is perfect. It has science. It has some humanity side to it."

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
Uh, it, and then you get to work with people and I want to help people. That was my goal. And you know, today with what my father has done in Argentina, what I'm doing in Argentina, elevating Argentine wine, I know that I'm helping more people through wine than I am, you know, as an individual doctor.

Doug Shafer:
Hmm.

Laura Catena:
You know, because when you help, uh, you know, thousands of people who work in the vineyards, you know, to, to farm sustainably, when you help Argentine wine not be in a commodity, when you show people that Argentine wine can be among the best wines in the world, you're helping a whole industry. You're helping millions of people. And, you know, honestly, I now believe firmly, you know, that responsible businesses help as much as doctors, and nurses, and teachers, uh, you know, not to take any credit off of doctors and, and hospital personnel, because right now-

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Laura Catena:
... you know, they are in the frontline and they're making so many sacrifices. My, my husband is an emergency doctor and you know, I mean, there's been so many deaths from, from-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
... hospital workers, uh, and it's a huge sacrifice. But I think that, that, you know, I'm seeing in the news right now a lot, people talking about, uh, those who do Amazon delivery, you know, all the, the people that are keeping, uh, people at home supplied with what they need, you know. Those people are just as important as, as the traditional, you know, help, um, professions. And, and so, you know, I started as, as a doctor and I love being a doctor. I, I love being, uh, an emergency medicine physician. I'm not transitioning, um, to volunteer work.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I was going to ask-

Laura Catena:
Uh-

Doug Shafer:
... you if you were, if you're still-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... practicing. So you're-

Laura Catena:
So, so I-

Doug Shafer:
... transitioning out.

Laura Catena:
... I actually, I actually ... The crazy thing is that last year, as, as an 80th gift to my father, I said, "Okay, I'm finally going to transition to volunteer doctor," and it was literally a couple months before COVID. And so, I left my position as an emergency doctor, because you know, I'm traveling too much. I have to be at the winery.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.

Laura Catena:
My team, you know, couldn't get a hold of me. You know, I can't answer the winery if I'm a doctor, you know, you have to be a hundred percent there. And so, but, but, but you know what, but the, but the, you know, being a doctor is very vocational. It, it's almost impossible to ... You can't leave it because you have to be, you know, that, that direct satisfaction of helping somebody and, and I am helping a lot of my friends with questions, but I am going to start my volunteer job as soon as they reopen the clinic that I'm planning to work at-

Doug Shafer:
Good.

Laura Catena:
... here in the city.

Doug Shafer:
Good.

Laura Catena:
So yeah.

Doug Shafer:
That's good news.

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And so-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... you and your husband, it's Daniel. How, how-

Laura Catena:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
... how'd you guys meet?

Laura Catena:
So we, we actually met in residency. And, uh, so we were both doing emergency medicine in Los Angeles at Harbor UCLA.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
That's where we met. Yeah. We were both residents in emergency medicine.

Doug Shafer:
Wow. And so before you retired, you were practicing for how many years?

Laura Catena:
So, um, almost ... Well, uh, emergency medicine, I ... So it would be 25 years.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Laura Catena:
Uh, but actually in some sort of clinical settings, uh, 30 years.

Doug Shafer:
Wow. And, and it's ... You guys have ... You have three kids, right?

Laura Catena:
Yes. Yes, three kids. Uh, they all come back and forth to Argentina with me, since they were little. And, uh, my middle son likes to work at the winery. My daughter's worked at the winery. And my oldest son is actually going next year to UCLA to do a PhD in organic chemistry, but he claims he has no interest in wine. But, you know-

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
... organic chemistry and wine, there-

Doug Shafer:
That's kind of right there.

Laura Catena:
Right?

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that, uh-

Laura Catena:
(laughing)

Doug Shafer:
Well, we'll let that, we'll let that one play out.

Laura Catena:
Yeah. Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And, uh, and doing some research, tell me about this, uh, Catena Institute of Wine.

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
That's 1995, what's that all about?

Laura Catena:
Yeah, so, you know, I was, you know, not thinking at all of working with my dad. but I had been traveling to France with him when he would go on his exploratory trips, because I speak French, I studied French in, in high school and college. So I would be his, you know, quote unquote translator, you know. I, I think it was part of this big scheme of his.

Doug Shafer:
Hmm.

Laura Catena:
But so I fell in love with drinking wine as a consumer first, not thinking I would work with the family. So I actually had a pretty developed palate and knew quite a bit about wine. And, um, you know, my dad asked me to go to the New York Wine Experience, the first time we were invited. So I go there, then I call my dad back and I say, I just started my first job as a doctor, uh, as an emergency doctor. And I said, "Dad, I have to help you. This idea you have that, you know, Argentine wine is going to compete with the best wines of the world, you know, it's a ridiculous dream."

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Laura Catena:
You're, you're ... It's never going to happen. (laughing)

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Laura Catena:
You know, I, I need to help you, because like I went to the New York Wine Experience, people would walk in front of me and not even taste my wine, because they said Argentina, you know, who, who's ever heard of Argentina making wine? We were the only winery from South America.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Laura Catena:
It was 1995.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
And, uh, you know, uh, so, you know, I'm sure Shafer had like really long lines at that Wine Experience.

Doug Shafer:
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Laura Catena:
You know, we, we had nobody-

Doug Shafer:
No, no, no, no.

Laura Catena:
Uh-

Doug Shafer:
No, no, no. You, no, you need to-

Laura Catena:
(laughing)

Doug Shafer:
... I need to tell you some history. I got stories for you, but, uh-

Laura Catena:
Okay. Okay.

Doug Shafer:
... you're sweet, though.

Laura Catena:
We'll, we'll ... Yeah, but, but, but anyhow, so I called my dad, and I said, "Dad, I need to come work with you." And really, I don't know anything about selling, but I know about science, because I've done a lot of research. And I said, "I want to help you really get to make these wines. And it's all going to be about studying the soil, the climate, the wine making," because the only way to compete is to actually make wines that are just as good.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
Wines that can be blind tasted and that, and that are just as good. And we realized that you know nobody from outside of Argentina knew anything about high altitude farming, nobody knew anything about Malbec. I mean, most people would come to Argentina and make Malbec like a Bordeaux variety. They would do long maturations, like Cabernet.

Laura Catena:
Whereas was actually Malbec needs to be treated a little more Pinot Noir, because it actually has these soft tannins, and it has really flora aromatics, so you, you know, you need a completely different approach, um, from Cabernet. And so, I said to my dad, "Let's, let's start a research group within our winery, so that we can test, test, test." And you know, we do about a thousand micro-vinifications of all kinds of different things. Uh, because I realized that we needed to, to, to develop our in-house knowledge about Argentina. That, you know, you could learn a lot from outsiders, but in the end, you've got to figure out your own terrior.

Doug Shafer:
Sure, exactly. So, this was a, a basically an internal research center-

Laura Catena:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
... that you guys started. Okay.

Laura Catena:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
Now, so is this when you started tapping into consultants like Paul Hobbs?

Laura Catena:
So the-

Doug Shafer:
That's in the 90s.

Laura Catena:
I mean, the consultants were, were a little before. So-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
... Paul started in the late 80s.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
Uh, you know, I met Paul in California because he lives in California. But I, I, I worked only a little bit with Paul. You know, by the time I, you know, I started in the mid-90s and Paul, uh, his last vintage was, uh, you know, he was there for '97.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
Uh, for just the harvest. Uh, but I, but I do know Paul very well. Uh, but then, my dad had this great, uh, technique, uh, to, to get, uh, knowledge from an outsider. So he basically, uh, would give an audience to anybody who comes to Argentina would say, you know, "We need to meet the godfather of Argentine wine."

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
Nicolas Catena. Meet him. He's, he's doing all the, the, the new stuff and the quality wine making. So, you know, Jacques Luterne, Etilio Palia who had worked with Antinori all the, you know, the, the, the people trying to make wine in Argentina, um, Michel Rolland. You know, everybody would come and talk to my dad. And, my dad would say, you know, um, "Here is my winery. If you want, I lend you these tanks, these barrels, so that you don't have to make a big investment. You can use my presses. But in exchange, you have to teach us everything you know."

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
"You have to help train my team." And it was like really sort of a handshake deal. And honestly, that's how our wine making team learned everything about traditional French wine making. Uh, and all these people have remained friends all over the world.

Doug Shafer:
Huh.

Laura Catena:
We just, uh, did a book for my father's 80th birthday. And all these people wrote letters, uh, to my dad about the, the old days. And, uh, you know, that's how we got a lot of knowledge, uh, and, and our team got trained.

Doug Shafer:
Wow. So you were joining-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... you joined him up ... You joined him, uh, in '95, is that when you joined the family business?

Laura Catena:
Yes. Yes. I mean, I started ... I started earlier-

Doug Shafer:
You were-

Laura Catena:
... doing these trips with my dad-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
... but really, you know, formally, in '95. Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And, and you were still a doctor, but you were living ... Well, you were living in both places, like you said.

Laura Catena:
Yeah. Well, and I, and I was actually, you know, I was full-time doctor then, but emergency doctors, you know, you only work about 10, 12 days a month. So I was still, you know, my free time, I'd be calling Argentina, you know, any vacation, I would get ... I mean, there is one thing about emergency doctors, is that you often get a week off, two weeks off, and then you work all the other days. So it does give you flexibility. It's, it's very much the only field I could have picked that I could be doing both.

Doug Shafer:
Amazing.

Laura Catena:
And that's a random thing, you know, it's just pure luck.

Doug Shafer:
It's amazing to me. And so, these days, what's, what's the size of ... How many acres or hectares do you guys own and number of cases, and brands? I mean, it's, it's big, right?

Laura Catena:
So, you know, I don't, uh, give number of cases, because you know, we have lots of different-

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Laura Catena:
... we have several different wineries-

Doug Shafer:
You've got the ... Well, you have different brands-

Laura Catena:
... different projects.

Doug Shafer:
That's right. I understand.

Laura Catena:
So, you know, um, you know, I have, you know, a number of hectares that I call our, you know, grand valle-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
... or grand cru, even if you know grand cru is a French term, but that's our internal name for that.

Doug Shafer:
Sure.

Laura Catena:
And those hectares, um, you know, are in the range of, of around 70 hectares. So 140 acres. Um, but all in all, you know, our family's, uh, total vineyards are about 1,000 hectares, so about 2,000 acres.

Doug Shafer:
That's fantastic.

Laura Catena:
Yeah. And then we also ... We, you know, as a family, we also, uh, have some brands that are, uh, you know, in, in, in, um, in, you know, more economic price points that we sell all over the world, that, uh, we buy some grapes from growers. But we worked very closely with growers, so we have our full sustainability program that we teach all our growers to farm sustainably. And, you know, to me, you know, I, I like fine wine. I like collectible wine. I love your wines, uh, you know, because they age so well. But, um, you know, I'm not, I'm not a wine snob, you know. I can drink, uh, a $10, uh, 10 Euro Albariño and, and be ecstatic, you know.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
I, um, I believe that there is a place for every, you know, every, every time has, has, has a, a price point, and, and you know, whatever money you have, you can have a great wine.

Doug Shafer:
I'm totally with you on that one. I mean, sometimes the, you know, the, the gems and the top wonderful, beautiful wines, but it's just like I, I don't want to kind of deal with that every night, you know. It's like-

Laura Catena:
No.

Doug Shafer:
... I just want something nice, refreshing, a nice rose, a nice like you said Albariño, I go to-

Laura Catena:
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I-

Doug Shafer:
... in a big way, you know, um-

Laura Catena:
I, I have no ... I feel no shame in loving rosè. And, and-

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
... and I also love natural wines. And I know it's almost like a contradiction. You can't love natural wines that are, you know, like so, like a little oxidized and a little funky, and just like so interesting. And rose, which, you know, some people say it's like a commercial wine. I love Pinot Grigio. Like-

Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.

Laura Catena:
... a really hot day.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Laura Catena:
Like a cool Pinot Grigio, or a cool rosè, I mean, that's delicious. I, I, I love it.

Doug Shafer:
Well, there, there's also, there's something I kind of miss right now, I never thought I'd say that, it's white wine on a plane. I can't say ... I, I kind of miss that now, because I always-

Laura Catena:
It's, it's-

Doug Shafer:
... I, I always have white wine on the plane, just because it's-

Laura Catena:
Yeah. Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... like, wow, what's this all about?

Laura Catena:
I agree.

Doug Shafer:
And just kind of try to delve into it. And I kind of miss it, because I'm not on a plane right now. It's just not happening.

Laura Catena:
You know what, I agree that if you're going to have, if you're going to risk it on a plane-

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
... go with white.

Doug Shafer:
Go with white.

Laura Catena:
I, I'm with you on that one.

Doug Shafer:
(laughing) Um, tell me about ... Now, you've got a winery named after your son?

Laura Catena:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
Luca. What's that all about?

Laura Catena:
Yeah, so, so Luca, you know, I have a vineyard, but I, I actually, uh, make, um, the wine at one of our family wineries, but it's a completely separate team from the Catena team. And basically, Luca started because, you know, when I, when I was working with my dad in the, in the, um, in the sort of mid to late 90s, uh, that's where I started hearing a lot about old vines, you know. I would go to France and everybody is talking about old vines. And I'd hear that all the great wines in the world, uh, at least in Europe, uh, they have these vine age requirements. Like, you know, you can't go into the top wine unless the vine's at least 20 years old. And then in California, people were talking about old vines, in Australia. And in Argentina, everybody was talking about young vines. And the, you know, we, our family had some old vines that we're making beautiful Malbec with, but, um, the wineries would say, hey, no, you know, those old vines from that grower, they're bad quality, you know. Any grapes that you don't farm yourself are going to be bad quality. And you know, and then I heard about Sine Qua Non, you know.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
It's like, you know, that's amazing wine. And they purchase their grapes. Uh, and so I said, you know, why is it that the rest of the world can find these beautiful vineyards, and actually Argentina has, you know, thousands of hectares of pre-phylloxera vineyards. You know, ungrafted vines. Uh, and, and these beautiful vineyards. So, I said to my dad, "Dad, I want to do a project with old vines, and I want to figure out if we can make great wine out of some of these vineyards that are basically selling their grapes in bulk. And we're all planning to pull out the vineyards and replant, because the yields were so low."

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
So I basically spent a summer, uh, the summer of, um, 1999, driving around and just making handshake deals with people saying, hey, you know, I'll pay you by the hectare. And, uh, you know, I wanted you to let our team manage, you know, this little parcel here. Or sometimes we'd buy the whole vineyard, if that's what they wanted. And, and that's how Luca was born, actually it was basically because I wanted to make old vine, uh, wine, and, um, you know. And then, I started a second project, La Tosos, also with growers. But now, actually many wineries are making beautiful wines from growers. Uh, you know, the same as you have, uh, in California, that some of the growers are, are farming some of the best grapes.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Laura Catena:
And, uh, that was the origin of, uh, the Luca project. And, and the other thing with Luca is that I, I did things that nobody else was doing. So, I have a really beautiful Syrah, I have a Pinot Noir that, um, is beautiful. And, and I just actually came out with a new, um, label, Domaine Nico, that I have five, uh, single parcel Pinot Noirs. And Luca is a blend and I've been making it since 1999. And Domaine Nico, I just started it, uh, with the 2016 vintage, but the '17 is what I'm selling outside of Argentina.

Doug Shafer:
Nice.

Laura Catena:
So, you know, I'm doing stuff that is not like does not have some kind of, you know, huge, uh, commercial potential. But I feel like, you know, you, as a family, if we're thinking of the hundred year plan, we've got to always be trying new things.

Doug Shafer:
Trying new things. Well, yeah, that, you know, we do that here. You try things on the side-

Laura Catena:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
... as an experiment.

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
If it works out, you move it into-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Laura Catena:
Yeah. Well, and, and just a quick thing. That's what's great about, uh, wine as opposed to medicine, is you know, you can't just try things in medicine, you know.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Laura Catena:
You have to be evidence-based, you have to know your stuff-

Doug Shafer:
Well, and-

Laura Catena:
... you know, you can't-

Doug Shafer:
... and the world is learning about that right now, aren't we.

Laura Catena:
Yeah. No, exactly. But you have to, because you, you, you know, you can't take risks. That's why the vaccine, uh, production is going to take a year and a half, because you-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
... you know, you ... It has to be really safe. The luxury of wine is that you can test something. If it doesn't work out, well, you don't, you drink it yourself.

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
You know, it, it, it is kind of wonderful to be in wine, because, you know, there's, there's a limit to, to, to how many mistakes, you know, uh, you can-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Laura Catena:
... make mistakes and it doesn't matter, you know. As long as what you're selling in the bottle is good, you can make a lot of mistakes.

Doug Shafer:
You got it. You got it. I know about that drink it yourself. That happens. That's happened-

Laura Catena:
(laughing)

Doug Shafer:
... to me for ... It's been a, it's been about 15, 20 years, but I, I know that one. Um, hey, new subject. I didn't realize, you're an author. You've written two, two books.

Laura Catena:
Oh, yes.

Doug Shafer:
So tell me about the two books.

Laura Catena:
Yes. Yes. Uh, and I'm on my third. Uh, I'll tell you about the third. So the first book-

Doug Shafer:
Great.

Laura Catena:
... was "Vino Argentino," which is, uh, you can find it still on Amazon. Probably not a lot ... And, and, and you know, probably used, in used, uh, book stores. Uh, "Vino Argentino, An Insider's Guide to the Wines and Wine Country of Argentina." It's a book about the wine regions, the, the people in Argentina, the culture, as well as, uh, recipes, um, from the different regions. And it was done by Chronicle Books, which is a, a great publisher. Uh, I spent about eight years trying to, to get somebody to accept the project. So, you know when, when, you know, when they say that the Harry Potter lady, is I don't know how many years it took her.

Doug Shafer:
It took her a long time. Yeah.

Laura Catena:
You know, it is true. It is really hard to get a book published. So, that was the book, and we had it translated in, in, um, in Spanish and Portuguese. And, and it's really a great book to take to Argentina. I listed 100 wineries that you can visit, with all their emails, and, and addresses. And I interviewed many other producers in Argentina who were all extremely willing to be in the book. It, it was just a great project. Uh, and that was published in 2010.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
And then, "Gold in the Vineyards" is a new book.

Doug Shafer:
That's right. Yeah.

Laura Catena:
And it's been illustrated ... Yeah, it's an illustrated book about some of the most famous wines in the world. And, uh, I basically went to, uh, you know, I picked the families that I knew, that their wines were really famous. And I wanted to tell sort of the more, you know, playful stories about the families. Uh, not, not ... They're not all playful. Also some of the tragedies.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
Like, you know, the murder between the Medicis and the Antinoris', did you know that?

Doug Shafer:
No.

Laura Catena:
That there's like a murder story between the Medicis and the Antinoris. Like, I mean, Theo Antinori was like besides himself looking at the illustration, because he's like, how did you know about this story?

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
It's on, it's on your website.

Doug Shafer:
I need to get this book.

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
Yeah, uh, and then, uh, and then it's illustrated because I think people are really, uh, learning through their eyes these days, because-

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Laura Catena:
... there is so much, uh, visual going on, you know, with Instagram and Facebook. And, and so I wanted illustrations because I think also that, you know, people love to drink wine, but they don't like to read about wine as much. Uh, I mean, there is the wine nerds out there, like you and me. But you know, people like to, to, to look at things.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
You know, look at Wine Folly. Like they are so popular because it's all illustrations about wine. And so that was part of the idea. And so that book came out, just now in March, terrible timing. So-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah. But, uh-

Laura Catena:
I, I-

Doug Shafer:
... can they get it, uh, can they get on Amazon? Or how do they get it?

Laura Catena:
So, they can, so they can get it in, actually in independent bookstores, who are selling-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
... online. But it, it's on Amazon. Actually they sold out on release.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Laura Catena:
Because they were pre-ordered. There were so many pre-orders. It's on sale in U.K., in U.S. and Canada, and also in Brazil and Argentina. There is, uh, a Portuguese and a Spanish. And I'm working on a potential Chinese edition.

Doug Shafer:
Cool. That is so neat.

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
So people need ... And you're working on a third book, you said.

Laura Catena:
Yeah, so the third book is with our winemaker about Malbec and the Argentine terroirs of Malbec. And it's also an illustrated book with illustrations of soil, and, and maps and also the history of Malbec, uh, told through these like letters from my winemaker to me and emails and social media. It's crazy. It's, it's, it's a book like you've never seen. It's either going to be amazing or horrible.

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
Hopefully amazing.

Doug Shafer:
It'll, it'll be amazing, I'm sure. I'm sure.

Laura Catena:
But it'll be in Spanish. How is your Spanish?

Doug Shafer:
Ahhh, si asi. That's-

Laura Catena:
Oh, bien.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.

Laura Catena:
I mean, uh, everybody in California speaks some Spanish. So-

Doug Shafer:
Well, yeah, it's-

Laura Catena:
... I'll give you a copy-

Doug Shafer:
Well, I speak enough to get-

Laura Catena:
... in Spanish.

Doug Shafer:
My Spanish will get me in a fight in a bar. That's what happens with my Spanish. So, so I'll stick to English.

Laura Catena:
Hopefully, out of, out of a fight.

Doug Shafer:
Out a fight, well, yeah, that's because I-

Laura Catena:
(laughing)

Doug Shafer:
... I used to, I used to be fast, but not anymore. So I've got to be a fast talker. Fast talker.

Laura Catena:
(laughing)

Doug Shafer:
Um, so anyway, these days, you guys, your ... I'm, I'm just curious about this. I was thinking about you and your wines, um, because I know a lot of folks in other countries, they export, you know, their biggest market is the United States. Is that, is that it for you guys, now, or you still sell most of it-

Laura Catena:
So-

Doug Shafer:
... in Argentina?

Laura Catena:
... We, so we sell about half our wine. We export half in Argentina.

Doug Shafer:
Okay. Okay.

Laura Catena:
Which I really like because I don't want to just be an exporting winery.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
You know, I, I, I really care about my domestic market, the Argentine people. But I'm also, you know, kind of, you know, fanatical about, you know, people outside of Argentina getting to know Argentine wine. So yeah, our top market for exports is, uh, the U.S.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
And it is rough out there. It's rough everywhere, you know.

Doug Shafer:
Right. I'm with you.

Laura Catena:
Uh, but it's, but the thing is, you know, every time you think, oh, it's rough for me, then at least I'm selling wine in some places. What about restaurants that can't run their business. So honestly, um, this is one of those situations where there's always somebody worse off than you and, and we need to help ourselves and them, and people who are worse off than we are.

Doug Shafer:
That's what we're doing.

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And, uh, so curious, if someone was new to, new to you and your wines, how, how would you steer them? Who should ... What, what brand, what wine label should they look for to get a feel for what Catena is doing? What would be a good-

Laura Catena:
So, you know, I, I would start with the classic Catena Malbec. I always call it-

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Laura Catena:
... my Chanel No. 5.

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
You know, because it, it's been around since the ‘90s. It's a blend of four different altitudes. It's just classic Malbec. It's often, you know, the, the blind wine at one of these massive sommelier tests-

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Laura Catena:
... or WSET, because, uh, it's very classic. It tastes like Malbec. It's not too oaky, so it's, you know, you really smell the fruit. It's, it's classic Argentine Malbec. That's where I would start.

Doug Shafer:
Okay. Good.

Laura Catena:
And then, you know, you can, you can try this wine Malbec Argentino, the one with the label with the four women. I'm, I'm kind of in love with that one.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that's the one-

Laura Catena:
And then if you want to go-

Doug Shafer:
... I want to try. I want to see that one.

Laura Catena:
Yeah. If you want to go for the more collectible wine, uh, I would try one of the Adrianna wines. And actually, if you're a lover of, um, you know, California Cabs, or super Tuscans, or some of the Bordeaux blends, I would taste, taste the Nicolas Catena Zapata. It has my father's name and it's a Cabernet Malbec.

Doug Shafer:
Nice.

Laura Catena:
And it has ... It's more of a cabby Malbec. And, uh, I find that people who really love Cab, tend to prefer that wine over a, a 100% Malbec.

Doug Shafer:
Okay. All right. Good. Great, great tips. Thank you. And-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... if people want to find your wine, I mean, I'm sure it's, restaurants are tough right now, uh-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... any particular retail or-

Laura Catena:
Well-

Doug Shafer:
... is there ... Is online-

Laura Catena:
... I mean-

Doug Shafer:
... is online and if online-

Laura Catena:
I think-

Doug Shafer:
... where?

Laura Catena:
Uh, I think that, um, yeah, pretty much most major wine stores in the country carry one of our wines. And I would, I would, you know, encourage people to support these stores.

Doug Shafer:
Yes.

Laura Catena:
Uh, call them up, and, and get an order from your local store, uh, because you know, they ... We ... You want them to stay in business.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Definitely.

Laura Catena:
And, um, and then, uh, yeah, and if, if restaurants are delivering wine, I hope once in a while, they're pairing their delicious food with Malbec.

Doug Shafer:
Good.

Laura Catena:
(laughing)

Doug Shafer:
Good. And, uh, social media, you've got a couple of accounts. Where can people find you and follow you?

Laura Catena:
Yes, so, the, the winery has, uh, a Facebook, Cadena Zapata. And an Instagram, at Catena Malbec, which is ... No, no, sorry, the Instagram is Catena Wines-

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Laura Catena:
... @catena wines. The Twitter is Catena Malbec. And mine is, uh, Instagram, Laura Catena MD.

Doug Shafer:
M.D. Got it.

Laura Catena:
Because the Laura Catena is, is taken by an Italian woman who won't give it up.

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
So it's my name, plus M.D.

Doug Shafer:
Plus M.D.

Laura Catena:
And then my, my Twitter is my name straight, Laura Catena.

Doug Shafer:
Beautiful. Beautiful.

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Well, listen you are so nice to do this today and take your time. Thank your family for being, um, quiet in the background and putting up with us. I appreciate that. And, I really, I miss you a lot and I can hardly wait until we get back to those situations where we can see-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... each other, all these wine tastings and-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... things we go together.

Laura Catena:
Yeah, it was, it was really fun to do that event together with you in Naples. I, I felt so honored. Oh, by the way, I just want to tell you that my winemaker, I've told you this before, but he is obsessed with your wine.

Doug Shafer:
(laughing)

Laura Catena:
And he, like any time I say, "What can I bring you back from the U.S.?" He's like, "Shafer."

Doug Shafer:
Well -

Laura Catena:
He's like, "Why are you even asking me?" So he loves everything that you guys do and congratulations to you and your family winery for all the traditions that you're keeping. And, uh, let's have our families get together some time.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, because I'll tell you something, I, you know, I realized just this morning, I was thinking about, I've, I've taken so many normal things for granted, you know, just having lunch with my crew in the kitchen, 10 of us.

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
You know, around the table.

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Uh, getting on a plane and coming to Argentina and visiting your winery.

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
It'd be like, oh, yeah, I'll do that someday. It's like, wow-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... if could do that right now, it's like-

Laura Catena:
I know, right?

Doug Shafer:
... I would, I would just be so appreciative of that opportunity. So-

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
... I think we're all going to come out of this with a, a greater appreciation of just life, and everything.

Laura Catena:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
So-

Laura Catena:
Yeah. Yeah. I think so.

Doug Shafer:
You-

Laura Catena:
All right, Doug.

Doug Shafer:
... you take care. Great talking to you.

Laura Catena:
Thank you, Doug.

Doug Shafer:
You stay in touch, stay well, stay safe. See you.

Laura Catena:
Okay. Salud.

Doug Shafer:
Salud. Thanks.

Laura Catena:
Bye, bye.

Doug Shafer:
Bye, bye.

Laura Catena:
Bye.