Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Hey everybody, welcome back. Doug Shafer here with another episode of The Taste. Uh, we've got a, uh, a wonderful guy in here, who I've known forever. A great wine maker, Dave Ramey. Dave, welcome.
Dave Ramey:
Thank you Doug. Pleasure to be here.
Doug Shafer:
Glad you're here. I've got to tell you something. Years ago, before I met you, I kept hearing about you.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
The first time was from a guy named Park Hafner -
Dave Ramey:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
... who was my, uh, lab partner in Chem 1A at Davis. And then, you know, through the years, I got into the business. I'm working here at Shafer. I- I heard about you from Larry Hyde.
Dave Ramey:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
In Carneros. Chardonnay. Great grower. And you know, it almost, Dave, I got to tell you, it almost became like this thing. It's like who is this guy Dave Ramey? And, he worked at Pet- Petrus- in Petrus in France. And, you know, it- it was almost like you were a mythical wine maker. I think, I mean it's like... you were like a wine whisperer. And then I met you a few years after that. It was like, "Hey, he's a regular guy!"
Dave Ramey:
(laughs) Well, you know, you hang around long enough and, you know, people start to hear about you.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) That's great. So talk to me, man. Where did you- where did you grow up? Where did you start?
Dave Ramey:
Well, um, other than, um, having been born in Seattle, and lived around there for six years, essentially my family relocated to, uh, Sunnyvale, which is now Silicon Valley in 1958.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Dave Ramey:
The same year the Giants came to- to the bay area.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
And, um, I- I went to school from- from third grade through twelfth grade with, uh, Steve Wozniak as a classmate. So, yeah, and Jobs was two years behind us apparently at- at Homestead High.
Doug Shafer:
Apple computer.
Dave Ramey:
Cupertino. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Man.
Dave Ramey:
It was right... so, you know, I was there. And, here we are in the middle of Napa Valley right now and we, you know, we- we work in- in Sonoma County, but, you know when we moved to Sunnyville in 1958 it was- it- it was, uh, in a subdivision plopped down in the middle of the orchards.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
You know, there were cherries, there were apricots, there were prunes. If you went a little towards Santa Clara, there were walnuts. And so I watched... I- as I was growing up in the middle of- I grew up in the middle of Silicone Valley being created and- and paved over and, uh, replacing agriculture with houses.
Doug Shafer:
So you lived there, you know, 'cause, we've all heard that story. Some of the best farm land in the state of California, gets paved over. So you were living there, seeing it happen.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, I think about today, and we were talking about getting projects done in Napa and Sonoma. It's challenging with permitting outside. But what was it like then? Was- was there those challenges or was, like just, go man go?
Dave Ramey:
Well, you know the thing was, all those crops that I just mentioned are commodity crops.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
So, there was no value added proposition, like making wine from wine grapes to allow the farmers to support agriculture. They couldn't- they couldn't hope to compete with housing, and- and why should they? But-
Doug Shafer:
Good point.
Dave Ramey:
... we in Napa and Sonoma, have this value added proposition wine, which allows multi-generation farmers, I think, you know, in Sonoma I work with the Martinelli family-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
... Oritsons, the Dutton, uh, the Sangiacomos. Larry Hyde, you mentioned, in Napa Carneros. That allows these multi-generation farming families to continue farming. And it's- and it's wine and wine grapes, that's the only crop, really... Well marijuana, we'll see what happens-
Doug Shafer:
We'll see what happens there. Right?
Dave Ramey:
-with that, but, you know. And- and so, the commodity crops, there's no- there's no way that- that they could compete with houses.
Doug Shafer:
With houses. Well this reminds me of, years ago, I lived in a- a little place in St. Helena. It was kind of on the west side. It was a subdivision, but it kind of had a little bit of a view over the valley. And I was newly married, had a couple little kids, and my neighbor was a guy named Mike Shooey. You don't know him.
Dave Ramey:
I've- I've- I've heard the name.
Doug Shafer:
Mike Shooey was vineyard manager for Louis Martini Winery-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... forever. And this guy was a farmer. I mean, yeah I'm a cellar rat in boots and all that and jeans, but this guy, you know, he wore the Big Ben shirts.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know, I mean, he was a farmer. And, you know, we-
Dave Ramey:
I have... Remember in addition to the tractor cap, you got to have the plaid polyester short sleeve shirt. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yes. Got to. Got to have the uniform. But you know, a lot of times we'd come home and we'd end up coming home at the same time, 5:30 or 6:00 from work, and we're getting out of our cars or trucks, and, "Hey Mike," "Hey Doug." And a lot of times we'd take a moment just chit-chat, "How's it going? How's the crop looking?" You know, that type of thing. And one time I was looking out over the valley with him, I said, "Man, just beautiful here Mike." And, he goes... and, he said to me, he said, "You know, maybe just maybe." I said, "What?" He goes, "Maybe this place will stay this way." I said, "What are you talking about?" And he told the same story, you just told about Silicon Valley. That's where he grew up-
Dave Ramey:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
... from a farming family.
Dave Ramey:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
And he was just sad about it because some of the best land, got, you know, torn up-
Dave Ramey:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
... or built over. And his point then, this was back in the late '80s, was like maybe this crop is- of grapes, is valuable enough as wine, we can keep this place green.
Dave Ramey:
That's exactly it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Yet... you know it's not a... the danger in Napa and Sonoma is not from subdivisions. We do have green belts, and urban growth boundaries, and AG preserve. But for some reason, at least in Sonoma, and I think probably in Napa too, the county would sometimes subdivide, allow subdividing to smaller parcels on AG zoned land. In- in Sonoma, it's LIA, Land Intensive Agriculture.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Dave Ramey:
But you can go up and down West Side road in- in Russian River Valley outside of Healdsburg, and find six-acre parcels, ten-acres parcels of ag zoned land, and that's what's eating away, nibbling away at agriculture, is essentially McMansions. People retiring to wine country-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... and building, you know, buying a- a parcel, small parcel, that's still zoned ag, and then they build a McMansion. They might even plant two or three acres of vineyard and masquerade as small grape growers.
Doug Shafer:
Small grower.
Dave Ramey:
But, really that's the greatest- that's the greatest threat, is nibbling at true agriculture-
Doug Shafer:
That is the -.
Dave Ramey:
-at production agriculture.
Doug Shafer:
That's Sonoma. Napa, it's gotten really strict here in Napa. I mean, they've paid a lot of attention to zoning, which is great. And, ... but, it's a- it's a struggle.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Ongoing.
Dave Ramey:
I'd like to see as much permitting process for, uh, hillside McMansions, as I would for wineries.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Oh and they've got it here. You know ridge top, ridge line, yeah. I've seen it. But, uh, it's a challenge.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's a battle. So, Silicon Valley, Sunnyvale. Right?
Dave Ramey:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
And, high school, sports, activities?
Dave Ramey:
Homestead High.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
And ... no, I was, uh, I wasn't- I wasn't a joiner, so, um... And then from there- from there probably the- the most perfect and at the same time, the worst college for me was UC Santa Cruz. Now that was 1969 to '73. And so there was a lot of, let's say free thinking going on.
Doug Shafer:
A lot of free thinking.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
sSo high school, went to UC Santa Cruz, '69 -'73.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. Yeah. Which was both, uh, at one, honestly only about forty-five minutes away-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... and on the other hand, a world away, you know. (laughs) It was- it was truly a- a city on the hill, and those were in its idealistic days, before, you know, because Silicon Valley wasn't what it was. Now UC Santa Cruz, functions almost as a, you know a high tech incubator.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Dave Ramey:
Sort of, you know, an alternate Stanford for Silicon Valley. But at the time it was, the originally idea was based on Oxford. So we had these small colleges, Merle, Crowns, Steveson. And I don't- it was never really that successful, but there certainly was a lot of, lets just say free thinking going on.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
What'd you study at Santa Cruz?
Dave Ramey:
I made up my own major. My wife would tell you, I'm an Aquarius, so, um, I'm a- a bit of a free thinker. And so I thought outside the box, and made up my own major. And, I called it American Studies, but it was really American Lit. What I was interested in, um, was the expression of the American character through literature, all the way, and you could take that all the way, from Cotton Mather, you know through, and it finally went, you know, Mark Twain.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
Ernest Hemingway, famously said, all American literature starts with one man. Actually with one book, Huckleberry Finn-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
... by Mark Twain. And ... and then you can carry it on through Edgar Allen Poe. And then- and then- you know in the in the detective genre from, you know, with Dashiell Hammett, um, and Raymond Chandler. And so, yeah. So, I had- I was both- it was both I was interested in the aesthetics of writing, you know. The poles being Hemingway on one side, and... in his terseness, and eliminate, eliminate, eliminate. And William Faulkner on the other, who never met a period that, he didn't want to excise.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
Um...
Doug Shafer:
Faulkner's tough. Oh man, I remember that.
Dave Ramey:
Oh, yeah, it was- it was tough. I don't- I don't think- I don't think he's aged particularly well, actually.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
So.
Doug Shafer:
So. Are- do you- so you- are you still writing?
Dave Ramey:
Ah, it's like pulling teeth.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
I- I could- I- I just-
Doug Shafer:
I'm making a big assumption that you were writing so I'm going to-
Dave Ramey:
I have to say, I can write well, but I don't do it much, um-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Dave Ramey:
... if I do, it's- it's winery related, you know, but...
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Dave Ramey:
And it's- it's perfect. But it- it doesn't- there's not a lot of it. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I'm with you. Brevity, brevity.
Dave Ramey:
I'm happy when... now that my kids have- have joined the business, and Alan- Alan and Clare, are- are- I'm- you know, I'm letting then write a lot of stuff, and that's... I'm- I'm fine with that.
Doug Shafer:
All right. Well great. So you're at Santa Cruz, American Lit, I got to ask it, but what about wine? Was- was- going back to high school and your home was- was wine part of the- the home scene?
Dave Ramey:
No. There was nothing. Nothing from my parents.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
Uh, so for some reason while I was at Santa Cruz, with a couple of friends, we started visiting wineries. We used to... one friend and I used to ride our bikes down to Bargetto Winery in So Cal-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. I remember that.
Dave Ramey:
-and talked. I still remember the tasting room manager was a really nice woman named Patty Ballard. And, uh... actually, eventually after I got out of Davis, Larry Bargetto offered me a job twice, uh, that I didn't take. But, anyway, so... and then we'd come up here, we'd come up and- and- and ride bikes up and down, uh, you know, um, on the trail, and Highway 29, um, you know from St. Helena as far north as Hanns Kornell.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
We'd visit wineries and, um, I was reading wine books, and ... And then, I got out and I- and I- I was a waiter in a Sicilian restaurant in Los Altos for a year. And continued to go on up to San Francisco.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
Exploring North Beach, you know, all the great Italian family-style restaurants, Capp's Corner and Gold Spike, and ...
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Dave Ramey:
And so, I was around wine and food and- and- and beverage and... And then, I really only had... this is a- this- I don't know, this is kind of detailed, personal, but, I only had one goal in- in life at that point. And that was, to support myself for two years in another country in another language.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
I felt it was an accident that I had been born a white male in America. Remember- remember the times, this is, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... UC Santa Cruz, early '70s.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
This- the-
Doug Shafer:
Anti-establishment.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Remember that? Totally. Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
And, um, so I- I- my Span- my- my language was- was Spanish, and so I settled on teaching English in Columbia. And so, I was on my way-
Doug Shafer:
In Colum- in Columbia?
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. Columbia-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
... South America.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
I didn't make it. I got waylaid -
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
... by a family, uh, that I picked up hitchhiking in, uh, Leon Valuarto in Central Mexico. And, I ended up, um, spending, uh, you know, half a year or so with them. Um, but during that period of time-
Doug Shafer:
Wait, wait, I gotta ask. Did you have a job in Columbia? Or, you were just heading there?
Dave Ramey:
Well, you know-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
... it was... I went into Mexico, and came back, and then, it was on the way back again that I got the job offer in Columbia, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
So, I actually went down and back and forth to Leon twice because, the first time on the way down I had a '71 Toyota Hilux Pickup truck with no radio. So it's- it's just, you know, on- on the long drive that day from Mexicali to Hermosillo-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... I- I'm just, it's just me and the Suaro and I'm thinking, "Well, what am I gonna do when I'm done with this?" And, in French you would call it a coup de foudre, a lightning bolt, an inspiration-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
... I was... Well, why not make wine? Makes people happy. It's, uh, not bad for the environment. It's an aesthetic statement.
Doug Shafer:
It just came out of the blue?
Dave Ramey:
It came- yeah. It came-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
I had been visiting wineries, and reading wine books. But, I never thought-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
... about it professionally. And then, so, I'm driving along and, this two-lane highway in northern Mexico. And then, I'm thinking, "No, I can't do that. It's- it's just a... Davis is just for sons and daughters of industry, like Mike Martini."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
I know- you know. Two miles later, you know, the thought, "No, that, wait, that's not true. Uh, It's the University of California. My parents paid taxes for it. Hell, I pay taxes for it." So-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, UC Santa Cruz, you were there? 'Cause you were- you were done with Santa Cruz at this point?
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, I was-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
... graduated-
Doug Shafer:
You'd graduated, okay.
Dave Ramey:
... I had a- had a bachelor of arts-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... in- in- in lit, in American studies. And so, I- I all but... what happened was, I- I ended up staying longer than I thought I would with this family. And they convinced me, "What do you need to go to Columbia?" You know...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
"Come on..." you know... So- so I turned... I came back, drove back to apply to UC Davis. Now, I did not think that you could get a master of science without a bachelor of science. I mean, nobody told me, I didn't know you- you could get, if you had the same pre-reqs-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... that you could have a bachelor of arts and then get a master of science. So, I applied to Davis for a second bachelors, which had- had the lowest priority admittance. So, they s- they- they said, "You can't- you can't come until you get your basic science in place."
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.
Dave Ramey:
Well, see, I'd- now I'd taken this- this decision, I'm gonna- I'm gonna make wine. And, I couldn't... so I... 'cause I learned this, I got... On the same day, almost, I got the job offer from Columbia, and I got the letter from Rosemary Pangborn at UC Davis who was the dean at that point of the Ag and Science College. And said, um, "You can't come until you get the science." So, I'm back driving down into central Mexico-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
... thinking... And, that point, I stayed two weeks. I turned around and I came back. And, two weeks later I was in CHEM 1A and BIO 1, and pre-Calculus, Algebra at- at San Jose State. And-
Doug Shafer:
Really?
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. So, three semesters at San Jose State, all A's-
Doug Shafer:
You just smoked it.
Dave Ramey:
And then, they couldn't keep me out.
Doug Shafer:
You just smoked it.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
That's so cool.
Dave Ramey:
You know, it's funny, 'cause I... the biggest thing is I was afraid of- afraid of science, and... 'Cause I never took science, never liked science, I was-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... a word guy. Uh, and it turned out- turned out, I was really- I was pretty good at it. The only thing I wasn't good at was- was Calculus. That's... but-
Doug Shafer:
Well, join the club. That's a-
Dave Ramey:
That remains a mystery to me.
Doug Shafer:
That's a- that's a big club.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I'm president of it, I can... we've got free membership. So a year and a half, three semesters, you bang it out. And so, you a- apply to Davis to- in the- as a- and for a Masters?
Dave Ramey:
Second, no, still second bachelors.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, it's- oh, jeez.
Dave Ramey:
And I got in, they finally let me in with my three semesters of A's from- from, uh, you know, four classes each- each semester.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
From- from San Jose State. And- and then, my first semester in, I was talking to my student counselor, and she said, "Well, why don't you apply to the masters program?" And, I said, "You could do that?" And she said, "Sure." So I did, and- you know, so I just changed. I mean, it didn't make any difference in terms of the classes. Just meant I had to do a thesis, you know, do a-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... research project.
Doug Shafer:
Do a research thing.
Dave Ramey:
So, yeah. So, three years at Davis. The- the first two years getting... The first year, basically, you know, the- the sort of advanced science, bio-chemistry and stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
And then the- and then the second year, all the wine classes. And then, the third year, couple more and my thesis research.
Doug Shafer:
And your thesis research.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. So...
Doug Shafer:
And so, this time period was when?
Dave Ramey:
At Davis from '76 to '79. And, this was a... I'm sure you're aware, Doug, this was an interesting time, because there were a lot of us, a lot of us, liberal arts re-treds who got out. We had degrees in literature and philosophy and political science and history. And then, we got out, and some of us were waiters for a little while.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
And then, we started thinking, "Well, I can't keep doing this forever. When am- how am I gonna actually make some money?" And- and so, you know, uh, my friend John Kongsgaard was there at the time.
Doug Shafer:
Kongsgaard was there.
Dave Ramey:
Uh, David Graves and Dick Ward.
Doug Shafer:
Graves, Dick Ward.
Dave Ramey:
Saintsbury.
Doug Shafer:
Jack Stuart.
Dave Ramey:
Jack Stuart, Silverado, Cathy Corison.
Doug Shafer:
Corison. Ton-
Dave Ramey:
Paul Hobbs.
Doug Shafer:
Tony Soter.
Dave Ramey:
Tony Soter. Well, Tony was not... Tony was- Tony was dating Cathy, so we-
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Dave Ramey:
... saw him now and then, but, uh, yeah, he wasn't-
Doug Shafer:
Well, I've got a funny story for you. I remember you guys.
Dave Ramey:
Ah!
Doug Shafer:
Because, I was there.
Dave Ramey:
So when were you there?
Doug Shafer:
I was there started in '74.
Dave Ramey:
Oh!
Doug Shafer:
'74 to '78.
Dave Ramey:
Oh, okay.
Doug Shafer:
And I'll tell you why our paths never crossed. Because, I didn't cross with these other guys either. So, I'm there the first couple years doing all the basic science, calculus, all that stuff.
Dave Ramey:
What did you think your major was?
Doug Shafer:
My major was vit.
Dave Ramey:
Oh, it was?
Doug Shafer:
Viticulture and- yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
Because I went into that. And, uh-
Dave Ramey:
Wait, vit or enology? 'Cause, at that time they were different.
Doug Shafer:
It was vit. It was viticulture. It was plant-
Dave Ramey:
You were gonna be-
Doug Shafer:
... plant science, vit.
Dave Ramey:
Plant science.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause, I wanted to be a farmer.
Dave Ramey:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
And then I was, and the enology thing came later. So, I'm doing the basic classes. And, I think the first time I saw you guys, 'cause I- I remember it, vividly-
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... was vit, I don't know if you were in this particular class, it was... was it VIT 1, uh, 121? A and B, Dr. Cook taught it.
Dave Ramey:
Oh-
Doug Shafer:
101, 101A and B. Vit-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... Dr. Cook-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... the crazy guy.
Dave Ramey:
Cook taught the first, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... uh quarter, and Cleaver taught the second quarter.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
116 A and B.
Doug Shafer:
116 A and B, thanks.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, I'm in the back of the class with Brian Delbandio, um, Kim McPhearson from Texas.
Dave Ramey:
Oh, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Bill Ward.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Remember Bill? And you guys are in the front, front row. You're the... I don't know if you were up there, but I remember Cathy Corison. And, you guys were just... you were the red-hots. 'Cause, I was like a sophomore, early junior year. And, it was like, very apparent, you guys were totally focused 'cause you knew what you wanted to do! And, I'm like a sophomore, you know, hanging out, partying, going, "Yeah, I'm kinda doing this," but I'm basically, you know, partying and-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... chasing girls and all that. But... So, we'd sit back there and look at all you red-hots-
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... up there with your hands up, and we would just laugh at you. And, little did I know, it's like, "Wow, I should have paid more attention in that class."
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, we were- we were focused.
Doug Shafer:
Definitely focused.
Dave Ramey:
... you know who save- uh, Dave and Dick established their-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... uh, friendship. And, they were always in the front row-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... and they were, you know... And- and, it, particularly that class, I tell this story sometimes, because Randall Graham... Randall and I went to school together twice, because we were at Santa Cruz at the same time.
Doug Shafer:
Oh (laughs).
Dave Ramey:
And, we only crossed paths once, and didn't really... but then, we showed up at- at- at Davis. And- and so, he was- he was focusing at, initially, not on Rhone stuff, with... and, he deserves-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
... a lot of credit for kind of re- you know, igniting the interest in Rhone varieties-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... here in California. But, at that time it was Pinot Noir. And- and he... and so, he was focusing on- on this limestone soil and he raised his hand once and asked Jim Cook, "Well, so if limestone is important, how about, if you're planting a Pinot Noir vineyard, if, you know, you dig a hole and you put, you know, two pounds of limestone in the hole?"
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
And, um, I mean Cook, just, you could just start to see steam coming out of his ears-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
... it's just... "God damn! Why don't you just dig a hole and throw a $10 bill in it?" (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) He was outspoken.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And totally, oh, he would get thrown out with some of the things he said. He would say-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... oh, just, you know, unbelievable what he'd say. And so, the reason you didn't see me is 'cause middle of Junior year, I realized I really wanted to teach school.
Dave Ramey:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
So, what I did, I had enough credits to get my vit degree, plant science/vit degree. So, instead of taking a lot of the analogy electives, I started taking education classes.
Dave Ramey:
Oh, okay.
Doug Shafer:
And psych, and psych which was... 'cause I was totally-
Dave Ramey:
Well, it's, you end up doing podcasts, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Well-
Dave Ramey:
You're educating the public.
Doug Shafer:
It's full circle.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So, um, so I ended up getting a... you know, still got the pl- the vit degree, but then I stayed an extra year in '79 and got, uh, a teaching credential at Davis.
Dave Ramey:
Oh, okay.
Doug Shafer:
So, that's why I never saw you guys again.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, okay.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
All right. And how long did you teach, and where, and what'd you teach?
Doug Shafer:
I t- uh, I went down, I got a job in junior- in teaching junior high, math and science, in Tucson, Arizona.
Dave Ramey:
Oh, wow!
Doug Shafer:
In 1979. And, I was thinking about this last night, think about you. '79, where'd you go in '79?
Dave Ramey:
'79 I knew I wanted to- to work overseas-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... before... Uh, and, specifically France. Um, and then, Australia was just sort of... because there was a- an extra harvest possibility, but... And so, the question was, you know, Burgundy, Bordeaux, Burgundy, Bordeaux. Because, even at that time, really, it was- it was Char- it wasn't Pinot Noir yet, in '79-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... but, it was Chardonnay, Cabernet. I mean, those were the- the... eve-... not to the extent that they are now, but...
Doug Shafer:
At that time those were the grapes.
Dave Ramey:
That was it. And so, I finally settled on Bordeaux. And then, it turned out... I worked in Merlot land, in Pomerol, not- not in- not in the Medoc, but... There's- there's really no difference other than soil and the variety. You make them the same, so...
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
Uh, you know... so anyway, yeah. So, I worked- I worked, uh... I still... so, I- I- I had this plan, I started taking French. And I asked, um, I- I wrote this letter in my crappy French Two, I had my teacher correct it. And, I asked- I asked Kunkee and Amerine who was emeritus at that point, but he came in for a lecture every year.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
Um, for referrals to French wineries. And, I still remember, I wrote- I wrote 14 letters.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
I got seven responses. Six no's, and one yes. And the one yes was from Christian Moueix. So, I ended up working with, uh... People say, pe- it's- it's an erroneous if people ever say, you know, "Are you work at Chateau Petrus." Nobody, literally nobody works at Chateau Petrus, I mean, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... except, um... They don't let any- you know...
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
And it's- it's different now, it's different, it's sort of a different ownership, but, um... So, you work for Etablishment Jean Pierre Moueix, which, number one, has a very significant, uh, um, negotiant of factory-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... in libor, not on-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... on the quay du priorat. But, at that time, and still, managed or owned, depending, uh, maybe, I don't know, 25, 28, uh, chateau, so-called.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Dave Ramey:
In, mostly Pomerol, but also at that time Canon and Canon-Fransec, and then St. Emillion. So- so I did pump-overs... that first time, 'cause I- I- I worked there twice, in-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
... in '79 and '89. But, in '79 I did pump-overs and I shoveled out tanks, basically, and-
Doug Shafer:
That's what I was - I wanted to ask you that today. But I'm thinking, you know, you're working there, it's like, "Oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh." But, that's part of the myth. The myth of Dave Ramey.
Dave Ramey:
Oh!
Doug Shafer:
And now, it's like, he's doing pump-overs! By hand, right?
Dave Ramey:
By hand.
Doug Shafer:
By hand, I remember those. And, uh, shoveling tanks.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I remember that too.
Dave Ramey:
I can- I can tell you... I don't think I've actually ever shared this-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
... you know... You spend all morning, and then there's a nice mo- there's- this is an aside, Moueix... Crushon runs one of the nice, old, traditional operations-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Dave Ramey:
... where you have two-hour... you have breakfast every morning, two-hour lunch with wine, and then- and then, big- big dinners with lots of wine, okay. And all the- all the workers, all the staff, everybody, eats together.
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Dave Ramey:
But... So, basically, you know, you- you- you- you're working about three, three and a half hours in the morning doing pump-overs, then a two hour lunch, and then three, three and an half hours, you... Like, I was pumping over, initially, I pumped over and then I pumped over at Pomerol, um...
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Dave Ramey:
And, it's- it's really kind of boring, you know, I mean-
Doug Shafer:
It's really boring.
Dave Ramey:
... you just, you know, the... You've got this little piston pump down on the bottom, and- and it's just a little...
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
It's not a powerful stream of wine, you know, you just...
Doug Shafer:
You just-
Dave Ramey:
And you, and... you...
Doug Shafer:
... irrigating the-
Dave Ramey:
I'm-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Honesty, I-... I was reading Tale of Two Cities, in- in the- the kind of Penguin translation, where you had the English on one page and the French on the other? So, I was- I was reading- reading it in both languages. In one hand, my- my left hand, while my right hand was doing the pump-over, 'cause-
Doug Shafer:
You gotta be kidding me. You-
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Terrible. I'm glad you didn't drop the book in the tank, did you? Oh, that's great.
Dave Ramey:
Uh-huh (negative).
Doug Shafer:
That's a good one.
Dave Ramey:
So-
Doug Shafer:
That's a good story.
Dave Ramey:
And then, you know, and then- and then, uh, as the season, you know, it's been about three weeks on the skins, and as-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
... as it moves on, um, you know, then I got transferred to shoveling- shoveling out tanks and... Course, there's no fan.
Doug Shafer:
No fan.
Dave Ramey:
You know, there's no... you know, you get- you get in- get in the tank, about, you- you just... bunch of CO2, you know... (laughs) It's just-
Doug Shafer:
Well, I remember, you know, in the early days, working with Randy Mason over at Lake Spring, shoveling tanks and, you know... During the end of harvest, you know, you go out a couple times and stay out late, I was single. You'd go out and so some drinking the night before.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, sure.
Doug Shafer:
You come in, you'd feel a little green-
Dave Ramey:
Sure.
Doug Shafer:
... the first thing you gotta do is get in one of those tanks, which is-
Dave Ramey:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... alcoholic, and, oh, my God.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You'd say, "Whew!" Those were the days. So, I just want to get on the record. So, 1979, you got... you went to France and I went to Tucson, Arizona. Just want to put-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, there you go.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So... I love it. So, you're there for just a harvest? Or...?
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
I spent... I think I spent four months, um, uh, total. I knew I- I- I scheduled going to, um, Paris for a month before, uh, going to Pomerol, and taking classes at the Alliance Francaise. 'Cause-
Doug Shafer:
How neat.
Dave Ramey:
... once again, I mean, you know, I just knew that when you... once you get on the career merry-go-round, it's very hard to get off. And- and so, I mean, it... I lived in Paris for a month, I mean, you know...
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Dave Ramey:
Who's gonna do... you know. How often... I would never have that chance again in my life.
Doug Shafer:
Chance to do it again.
Dave Ramey:
You know. And then- and then, three months in- in, uh, in Pomerol, you know.
Doug Shafer:
But that's... so, that was your first actual, out of school, first wine job, wine gig.
Dave Ramey:
Well, not exactly. My friend Nick Morton, who also... he and I- he and I were actually roommates together at Santa Cruz in the senior year. So, he was at Santa Cruz, and then Davis also. Lot of of Santa Cruz people. David Graves was Santa Cruz.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
Randall Graham, uh, Dick and Di- uh, Donnie Dyer and Bill Dyer.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, right.
Dave Ramey:
Both were Santa Cruz. Um, and, uh, Fred Peterson was Santa Cruz. He was- he was part of our-
Doug Shafer:
I remember Fred!
Dave Ramey:
... cohort, yeah-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... he was at vineyard, he was my, 116, he was the pruning, uh, T.A. But, um. So- so, Nick Martin finished up his bachelors and got a job as winemaker at Lambert Bridge-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
... in Dry Creek Valley. And, he asked me if I could help part-time during the harvest. So, I scheduled my, I only took, um, one or two classes. I scheduled them so that they were on Monday and Wednesday. And then, I came back, I was doing my lab re- lab analysis and my esters for the research.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
And, so, Wednesday night, I would drive over to Healdsburg, and- and stay at their house, and then, I worked Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And then, Sunday night, I'd drive back to Davis. So, that's where I got my first experience shoveling, for example, Chardonnay- mostly they made Chardonnay.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
And, they didn't have a destemmer, um, so we- we would, um, shovel the... Oh, no. They did- they had- no, they had the destemmer, but no way to get the grapes from the half-ton bins into the stemmer. So, we pitchforked them in. And shoveled and ended up, by the time the bin was half-empty, we were standing in it. So we're just stomping on grapes, you know.
Doug Shafer:
We're just stomping on Chardonnay grapes.
Dave Ramey:
We had no idea what we're doing. And then... then they- then they got de stemmed and pumped, old Moyno pump into a tank for overnight skin contact-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... at about 85 degrees, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Ooh! Ooh!
Dave Ramey:
'Cause, I mean, nobody... so, there was no night picking. People- people weren't a... paying any attention to temperature of the grapes-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
And- and skin contact and-
Doug Shafer:
High -
Dave Ramey:
... extraction. And- and so, and then, the next day, we'd come in, drain that tank, and then, shovel it out like it was red fermentor, back into the Merkel pump, the minestrina, just like a peanut butter pump-
Doug Shafer:
This-
Dave Ramey:
... just grind the snot out of it.
Doug Shafer:
Just- just- just tearing it up.
Dave Ramey:
Just grapes. Put in- put them in-
Doug Shafer:
Just tearing it up, I mean.
Dave Ramey:
You know. And then, move them over to the- at that time, the vaslin, double moving head press that would go up to about seven bar.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, I remember those things with the chains, and all that? Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, this- this was- this was the advance between the... actually, the very gentle but not very efficient basket press.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
So, Vaselin, French company, they'd turn the press on it's side, and put a big screw down the middle in these plates and chains. And it got up to about seven bar, just like, I mean. We just beat this- this- this poor fruit to a pulp. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Seven bars atmosphere, is, compared to today what do we go? Maybe, where do we go?
Dave Ramey:
Maybe one atmosphere.
Doug Shafer:
One- one- one-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. 15-
Doug Shafer:
One and a half, something like that.
Dave Ramey:
15, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I mean, so-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... this was back in the, uh-
Dave Ramey:
Two, two bar, yeah. We get up to two, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Up to two. Yeah. The early days where our equipment, you know, wasn't very gentle, and, we made some rough, hardy- hardy wines-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... didn't we?
Dave Ramey:
That was the- the-... that was an advance over the continuous press, you know, 'cause-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I remember tho- I remember seeing those.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, when we started then, my first real job, it was in Simi, and- and we had both the double... we had the new, uh, Wilmas Tank Presses.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
And then, we had the... which we used for whites, and then we had the- the old Vaselin double-moving head for the reds. And then, there was the continuous press was sitting there-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, interesting.
Dave Ramey:
... but, we didn't use that.
Doug Shafer:
You didn't use it.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, France and then you have a short gig in Australia?
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, I went to- I wanted to, and I asked Roger Bolton's help on this. I wanted the alternate experience of working in a factory. So, he set me up at Lineman's Caredoc Winery. We, would Phil Shaw, my now-friend Phil Shaw, went on for Rosemont, had designed and set up... he was sort of the enfant terrible of Australian wine making at that time. And, yeah, we processed 37,000 tons of grapes that year in that... so...
Doug Shafer:
37,000 tons.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, yeah. It was owned by Philip Morris. And the big product was bag in a box Rhine Riesling. We'd-
Doug Shafer:
Just to- just to let folks know, 37,000 tons, we do about 6 ton- 600 to 800 tons, so
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, so we're- we're we're about the same size, 600 tons, 700 tons, yeah, so. Yeah, so this is- this is major-
Doug Shafer:
This is a lot (laughs).
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's a lot.
Dave Ramey:
So, and- and- and it's, so this big product was major thing they made, back in the box wine Riesling, and funny thing is, it did- didn't have a drop of Riesling in it.
Doug Shafer:
No, no, no, no, no, how did- how do you make Riesling without Riesling grapes?
Dave Ramey:
Well, you could say, "I guess Rhine Riesling was a generic name, like- like- like Hardy Burgundy or something, or-
Doug Shafer:
Got it, true, true.
Dave Ramey:
... you know. So, half of it, 50% was what they call sully or sultana, or Thompson Seedless.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
So, and then the next 30% was carbon shriaz. Now, they- they call Shiraz, Syrah shiraz down there.
Doug Shafer:
Red grape.
Dave Ramey:
And there this old vine Syrah around that they'd pick at a little lower bricks and press out as a- as a white grape. Which left you with pink juice.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Dave Ramey:
And then- and then, decolorized that with 20 pounds per 1,000 gallons carbon-
Doug Shafer:
Carbon.
Dave Ramey:
... activated charcoal.
Doug Shafer:
To take- to- to charcoal.
Dave Ramey:
So- so- so-
Doug Shafer:
To take the color out.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, so now you got-
Doug Shafer:
So it's white wine.
Dave Ramey:
Which, known as really neutral white base. And then- and then, 15% Gordo, Muscat Gordo Blanco-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
.... which we would call Muscat of Alexandria. That provided the little lift-
Doug Shafer:
Little lift that-
Dave Ramey:
... that gave it the- the varietal definition as Riesling.
Doug Shafer:
So you could call it Riesling. (laughs)
Dave Ramey:
And then, 5% miscellaneous whites. Colombard, chardonnay, chenin, you know. So, it was about... my memory is about 11 and a half alcohol, 35 grams residual, three and a half percent -
Doug Shafer:
Pretty sweet, yeah.
Dave Ramey:
And it was, you know, it was a creditable imitation of- of Riesling.
Doug Shafer:
What- were you just... what were- what were you thinking? 'Cause, here you came from, you know, UC Davis and the whole thing. And- and, making fine wine and- and, you know, in Bordeaux. And- and making top-quality, you know, Merlot and Bordeaux. And then, then you're seeing this. What was it like? Were you just like... w-... like, stunned? It was kind of like...
Dave Ramey:
It was the experience that I was looking for.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
You know? So that I would never end up really doing it again. You know? But... um... You know, you only see a in- in- in harvest you only see a... one slice of the- of the whole production cycle, so... you know. Uh- uh, mostly it was a lot of...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
There was a lot of rotovac lees filtration, as I recall.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, wow!
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
How neat.
Dave Ramey:
It was- it was all white. There were some- there were- there were some rotary fermented for reds, and- and that's where I was able with- with Philip to taste a- and see some of the r- results of that. So, three days of, you know, of frequent rotation of Syrah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, my Gosh.
Dave Ramey:
And, the color was huge. And, the tannin was almost non-existent. And then, 12 months later, in the bottle, big squamous gobs of- of anthician just precipitating out because they had no- no tannin to stabilize them.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, wow.
Dave Ramey:
So, that was- that was really interesting.
Doug Shafer:
That's cool.
Dave Ramey:
You know- you do need, you know, you're making red wine-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... you do need some tannin to stabilize that color.
Doug Shafer:
Exactly.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's like Sangiovese. I had that issue with Sangiovese. Interesting. Okay. We need to talk more.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
All right, so, after Australia, you came back to California. What- what... how did that happen?
Dave Ramey:
Well, the story there, really, is that, at that time... and it's not that way now, but, at that time, everybody... every one of the people we've talked about-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... got a full-charge wine maker job right out of the gate. Everybody.
Doug Shafer:
Cathy was in here, Cathy Corison.
Dave Ramey:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And we had- we had the same conversation, and I said, "Yeah-"
Dave Ramey:
She went to Yverdant.
Doug Shafer:
Right. I said-
Dave Ramey:
Right, okay. And, she was-
Doug Shafer:
I made the same comment you're making. But, go first.
Dave Ramey:
I was the only person that- that said, to myself, "Wait a minute, I don't know how to make wine. I don't wanna be a winemaker, I wanna work with somebody who- who does." And, I focused on Zelma Long, who I had heard was leaving Mondavi to go to Simi.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause, she was at Mondavi for years, wasn't she?
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
She was there for... like, long time. Doing some good stuff.
Dave Ramey:
Right, yeah, well... anyways, seven, eight years.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
And, in fact, she had gone to Cornio and asked, they were looking for an experimental, like, enologist to assist Rich Arnold. And so, they- they ended up offering me that- that job. And, I wrote her a letter at Mondavi from Paris with the Chateau Petrus return address on it. Saying-
Doug Shafer:
Nice touch.
Dave Ramey:
... saying "Zelma-"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
... "thanks so much for this job offer, but I'm not interested in experimental, uh, position, I'm interested in a production position. That said, I understand you're gonna be leaving Mondavi to go to Simi, and should you need an assistant wine maker, I'd love to be considered." And, it so worked out.
Doug Shafer:
She offered you the job.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. Well, not im- not immediately, there was a guy named Chris Markell in that position-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
... and then, he left to go to what was to be Piper Sonoma, uh, to make sparkling wine.
Doug Shafer:
Sparkling wine.
Dave Ramey:
And, so that's when it worked out.
Doug Shafer:
Well... 'Cause, Cathy made the comment, she said, you know, "Those days, it was a short ladder to winemaker."
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
She's like, "Boom, compared to-"
Dave Ramey:
That's a good way to-
Doug Shafer:
It's a good way to put it-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... I thought it was great. And, and today, it's not the same.
Dave Ramey:
No.
Doug Shafer:
But, boy, good for you for having that foresight.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You know, it reminds me, when dad wanted me to come over and be wine maker here. All I had was two years at Lake Spring.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And I told him, this was 1983, and I said, "Uh-huh (negative)." He says, "What do you mean?" I said, "I-"... this is a true story. I said, "I know enough to know I don't know how to do this yet."
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. Which is a lot.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And, you know, and I taped... and he talked me into it. He said, "We got Chuck Ortman, consultant, we'll up their time," you know, all this stuff. And, it worked out. But, let me tell you something. I was right.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I was right. And so, we had a lot of... we had some, you know, I walked into some challenging things here and, it was like, under fire. But, boy you know, yo- under f- you- you learn fast, man.
Dave Ramey:
You learn fast. Or you don't.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. But, uh, interesting. Well, good for you. So, you... Zelma, so now you're at Simi.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Over in Sonoma.
Dave Ramey:
Almost five years.
Doug Shafer:
With Zelma Long.
Dave Ramey:
And, uh, yeah, so I- I we- well, m- mostly I... I mean, I started and- and ended in Sonoma. I did spend six years over here in Napa, but... Um, yeah, and, Zelma and I did really good work together, notably on-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... on oxidized juice and white wine. Um, l- lease contact, uh... You know, I still remember, Ed Sbragia, Beringer calling me o- once when- when I was assistant winemaker at Simi and saying, you know, "You don't really s- s-..." 'Cause- 'cause people were just moving, you know, from... I mean, if you- if you worked with Chuck Ortman, you knew the drill.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Chardonnay, you tank ferment it, and then, when it's dry, you rack it off the leaves, you put it in barrels for a short period of time.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
That's it.
Doug Shafer:
That's it.
Dave Ramey:
You know? And, no malo, and, uh, so we- we really were, you know, moving into the- the Burgundian method, which is- which is barrel ferment, malolactic, and- and- and aging on the lees.
Doug Shafer:
Aging on the lees.
Dave Ramey:
And, Ed called me and says, "You don't really need to rack after ferment, do you?" And I- and I said, "No, you don't." He said, "Do you know how much time and labor that saves us?" 'Cause they must say I had 50,000 barrels-
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Of- of- Of barrel fermented Chardonnay. (Laughter)
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah. Yeah, I used to rack Chardonnay a couple few times a year for the - it was terrible.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It was terrible.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I mean uh-
Dave Ramey:
So, so anyway, that worked. They oxidized juice so... And then, and then um, and then, uh Mary Edwards left um Matanzas Creek and I got engaged, to replace her. So Zelma and I worked together for almost five years.
Doug Shafer:
Five years.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And then you moved to Matanzas Creek.
Dave Ramey:
And I moved Matanzas Creek.
Doug Shafer:
Now was that, okay so my memory of Matanzas Creek is their Merlot and it was so hot and so popular, it was so allocated people just couldn't get Matanzas Creek Merlot and if you got a bottle it was like, you know finding a gold bar. So are you the guy that did that?
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, I would, I would say so.
Doug Shafer:
Then-
Dave Ramey:
And- and-
Doug Shafer:
... pat yourself on the back man, because it was, that was the late '80s...
Dave Ramey:
It- it- it was '80- '80- really starting with '85.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Dave Ramey:
'84 I- inherited and doctored, '85, '86, '87 and '88. '87 was a really good vintage. And- and I'll tell you, Doug, the thing was, and, you know, I love uh Roger Bolton, but he came in as a chemical engineer from Australia and said pH is the most important thing. pH, pH, pH! That controls everything, you coul- you could list all these, all these chemical reasons why low pH is advantageous, you have more, more active SO2 -
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
You got, you got more red hue, you've got more color, you got more microbial stability, for various reasons, except taste. And because I had worked in, in Bordeaux, I knew that they never acidified a red wine.
Doug Shafer:
That's where you got it.
Dave Ramey:
Never- yeah!
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Because see, alias and I came onto Davis just like you and it was pH- by the way, low pH means higher acids. So the lower pH-
Dave Ramey:
In general, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... higher acid in general...
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
An- and, but, but it- it makes the wine very safe and secure, but it, taste-wise it just kind of uh...
Dave Ramey:
It can be, it can be kinda lean.
Doug Shafer:
Lean? Lean?
Dave Ramey:
Uh, when you mentioned Sangiovese- (Laughter)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah, same thing, naturally.
Dave Ramey:
So-
Doug Shafer:
Very low pH.
Dave Ramey:
An- and-
Doug Shafer:
But... okay-
Dave Ramey:
People weren't even analyzing the wines, you know, I mean I won't name a name, but one of my colleagues at Davis, uh I- I you know, I- I said "we should be tasting French wine." And he, he said- and you know and analyzing French wine. He said "why?"
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Dave Ramey:
And I said well because, every wine bar in the east coast of the United States is comparing French to California-
Doug Shafer:
True.
Dave Ramey:
... every day of the week. And he said "No, that's apples and oranges". And I just never took that approach. I thought... I always thought if you were gonna go... if you... If you wanted to build a Taj Mahal, you would take your protractor, and ruler, and go to the Taj Mahal and measure it.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
And it- i- it's so easy to actually you know measure alcohol, TA, and pH. Ju- just-
Doug Shafer:
You could've just done... just done the analysis right there.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. And so, so, and what I, what I noticed is even a uh like say the '82 vintage so, and I'm buying those in '84 and '85 and analyzing as great vintage..
Doug Shafer:
Bordeaux.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, Bordeaux's. Uh, and particular Pomerols, and I remember, and I- I taste them eight or ten wines and, and it turned out that there were five that I deemed weak and five that I deemed really delicious.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
Strong. And then so we analyze them and guess what? All the, all the weak ones had pHs, between 3.4 and 3.6. And all the strong ones had pHs between about 3.7, 3.8, 3.9. And, and people didn't know this. That, you know, people were coming from this "Oh I gotta have low pH, I gotta have low pH." But-
Doug Shafer:
It was the... It was the Davis thing, I mean, I'm not, I don't want to knock ‘em ... It was just the, the, the science thing and we were victims of it too because your time period at Matanzas Creek, man I wish I'd knew you, I wish you and I were having lunch every week.
Dave Ramey:
(Laughing)
Doug Shafer:
Cause you would have saved me a lot of time. Our wines in the mid '80s were tart, and acidic, and and lean, and mean-
Dave Ramey:
Bulletproof.
Doug Shafer:
Bulletproof.
Dave Ramey:
They aged forever.
Doug Shafer:
You know, they'd age forever. But...
Dave Ramey:
(Laughter)
Doug Shafer:
... But they weren't necessarily very delicious-
Dave Ramey:
Charming-
Doug Shafer:
... Charming.
Dave Ramey:
... Delicious.
Doug Shafer:
You got that. I'm so, pissed off that you got that before I did.
Dave Ramey:
(Laughter)
Doug Shafer:
Cause it would have saved me about five years. But we finally figured out with Tony Soter’s help.
Dave Ramey:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
And it started kicking in for us around uh, early '90s.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, okay.
Doug Shafer:
And backed off. Cause man we used to, I used to, I can't tell you how much tartaric acid we used to buy and dump in the tanks to get, to acidify the wines.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, yeah. You know-
Doug Shafer:
Aw, man.
Dave Ramey:
Jean-Claude uh, I learned a lot from working with Jean-Claude Debeaune the long time enologist for Moueix, one of the great gentleman of the French uh, wine world. Or of the wine world international um, and he- he said you know uh tannin an- and acid are uh antagonistic and as tannin goes up, you know, the acid must come down. And really, that's, that's cabernet. I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
And then, and then too, if, if, if the tannin comes down on a red wine the acid plays more of a prominent role. Think, think Pinot Noir.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
And then my addition to that is, and if you have both high tannin and high acid that's too bad, you've got Sangiovese. (Laughter)
Doug Shafer:
(Laughter) That's the thing, that's so... that's true. That's why we, we left Sangiovese, and we let the Italians make it now, they can have at it.
Dave Ramey:
Brunello is one of my favorite wines, much of my wife's regret because Carla thinks that, that they're too acidic and too tannic. You know? (Laughing). As far as I'm concerned though, they're really soft compared with, uh Barolo. (Laughing)
Doug Shafer:
Yes, true. Um, boy, this, this, just... I had a great memory cause uh, our first Cab, dad made '78 Cab, he made with the help of a guy. It was a beautiful wine for us, and you know, this is... Your... you just taught all of us a lesson. You know, if you wanna emulate something, you know, analyze it. Take it apart and find out what's, what's, what's what to build out of. And I blew it with the '78 Cab it was gorgeous and I remember reading the records of... Elias and I had been here a few years, mid '80s we were making wine you know the UC Davis way and I remember reading this old... Dad had some old notes on the '78 Cab and it's like... reading a story... said yeah you know, the... It was aged. He had a pH of 3.9 throughout its year and a half in barrel. And then he had some, he said "Oh" this guy who helped him finish the wine before he bottled it, you know, caught that and made an acid adjustment, got it... got, adjusted it. But it- but still it was only down to like 3.7 and that '78 Cab was one of the best wines Shafer’s ever made. And here, Elias and I are, you know, 3.3, and 3.25. And just...
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know hindsight is 20/20. (Laughter) You know?
Dave Ramey:
(Laughter) You're being very honest with your listeners here Doug.
Doug Shafer:
That's okay. They've heard it just about... they've heard almost everything, but not quite.
Dave Ramey:
(Laughing)
Doug Shafer:
But Matanzas Creek... So you were there for five, six... four, five years?
Dave Ramey:
About five years, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. And then, and then you moved on. Oh! He moved on to...
Dave Ramey:
Well Christian, Christian had in mind-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay.
Dave Ramey:
...that we would work together.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
So he asked me back to Pomerol in '89.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
Which was at the time, I mean, warm vintage, good vintage their earliest vintage uh, they stated harvesting in late August which was...
Doug Shafer:
That's early.
Dave Ramey:
... Didn't quite know what to do. And then my fiance then, Carla and now business partner and we'll have our 30th anniversary this October...
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Dave Ramey:
Sh- she came along with me and so I was, this time I wasn't doing pump overs and shoveling out tanks. I was, I was driving around with Jean-Claude or, or you know, taking samples of vineyards, and or, tasting with Jean-Claude and Christian, and she was picking grapes so. You know.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughter)
Dave Ramey:
Which is hard, uh, hard work. So and-
Doug Shafer:
You had her picking grapes and she still married you, good for you.
Dave Ramey:
And, and then, we got married. And we planned to get married in France because-
Doug Shafer:
Oh great.
Dave Ramey:
... we wanted to escape the social complications of having a wedding in, in, California. And we weren't quite sure whether Burgundy or Bordeaux but in the end Christian stepped and hosted our wedding.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Dave Ramey:
And so we were married by, the mayor of Montana Saint-Émilion and then we had a nice champagne, Bollinger Champagne reception of Christian and his then wife Mari-Lou’s house, and then we had uh a, a great big dinner with mostly the uh, uh, staff at a Hotelier Minon in Saint-Émilion.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
Which now has the new, the new owner. But yeah. So it was, yeah it was grand, yeah...
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Dave Ramey:
A grand adventure. And then so as we were leaving he said you know, it's not time to work together yet, find another job and we'll see. So then the job that I ended up taking was Chalk Hill so-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
So then for six years to the day actually, I uh, I helped uh, turn sort of helped turn Chalk Hill around a little bit.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Change the style of wine, quality of wine, and that's when I really started doing road work too, you know, talking to distributors, you know, holding trade lunches-
Doug Shafer:
Doing the business-
Dave Ramey:
... Doing dinners-
Doug Shafer:
... marketing sales. Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
The drill.
Dave Ramey:
You know, it's the old thing, you know, wines easy to make, it's hard to sell.
Doug Shafer:
It's a challenge to sell.
Dave Ramey:
(Laughter)
Doug Shafer:
So tell me about it, cause Chalk Hill, the guy was Fred Furth. I never knew-
Dave Ramey:
Fred Furth.
Doug Shafer:
I never knew much about him, what was his story?
Dave Ramey:
Well uh, an- a trust lawyer.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
Larger and louder than life.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
You know, always liked to have two great Danes around, uh, he was a pilot, um, and he had his own, he kept succession of his own jets but he also had a full time pilot so that, Fred liked to you know, take off and land but then he could do you know, work, on a... An- and this first big case. I think was an asbestos case, and, and was the proceeds of that, that he bought Chalk Hill. So then he hired a property manager and property manager said, why don't we hire... why don't we plant grapes and so he ended up you know-
Doug Shafer:
Just-
Dave Ramey:
He started the first brand was called Dona Maria which didn- wasn't that successful. So then he turned into Chalk Hill. And yeah so... and you know, I continued to evolve there and mostly in terms of moving, uh, this is now '90 through early '96-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
... moving to the native yeast. I came-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
I came back from Bordeaux that second time really wondering why native yeast had worked so, so well in France for all those years and we weren't using it in California. So-
Doug Shafer:
Again, another lesson from France.
Dave Ramey:
So, I started experimenting and within three years I was 100% native yeast or wild yeast, whatever you want to call it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Indig- Indigenous yeast.
Doug Shafer:
Indigenous yeast.
Dave Ramey:
You know.
Doug Shafer:
And Kongsgarrd was doing that up at uh...
Dave Ramey:
He was doing it at Newton too.
Doug Shafer:
... Newton. Right.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, who's the guy... Franciscan... Fred Upton.
Dave Ramey:
Few people... Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Franciscan had uh, you know, Cuvee sauvage, or something.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, so... But I was doing for everything. Uh-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. 50,000 cases of, of uh, of Chardonnay. Barrel fermented Chardonnay, full malo, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Dave Ramey:
So, so that was pretty close to the way we're making Chardonnay now.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Dave Ramey:
With the exception that it was filtered because it was like nine months in barrels. So it came, came out before the next vintage. And then, so, now when we do Chardonnay the villages wines, the Russian River and the Sonoma coast they spend 12 months on uh lees barrel and then come out and spend you know, til after vintage in tank-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... and then get bottled in like January, February. And then the singe vineyards they spend about 20 months on lees, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Oh really?
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
20 months.
Dave Ramey:
So, the La Fleve does that 12-month thing, and then you know 20 months is the old fashioned way. It's like - but uh, yeah big fan of the lees contact, that's really huge.
Doug Shafer:
Well we've grown into that too. Yeah, we do about 10, 12 months and then tank it for a couple months-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and then after that-
Dave Ramey:
Oh, it's a beautiful system because ... the barrels are always, the barrels are always full.
Doug Shafer:
Barrels are always full.
Dave Ramey:
(Laughter)
Doug Shafer:
Keep the barrels full.
Dave Ramey:
It, it, it's optimally ... efficient.
Doug Shafer:
Yes. And it makes really good wine, so there you go.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, Chalk Hill for five or six years-
Dave Ramey:
Six years.
Doug Shafer:
... And then uh-
Dave Ramey:
And then, and then, Dominus then-
Doug Shafer:
The he called.
Dave Ramey:
... Christian, Christian, asked me if I would come over and run Dominus. It was different earlier-
Doug Shafer:
Come over from Sonoma-
Dave Ramey:
From yeah-
Doug Shafer:
... So you were a big S... you were a Sonoma boy forever.
Dave Ramey:
... Chalk Hill, yeah earlier we would look for property to partner on. And making what he referred to as more feminine wine, and probably, you know, Sonoma being lets say on average about nine degrees, ten degrees cooler than, than Napa -
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
... so Merlot which is an earlier ripener, does a little better in cooler areas, here in Napa Valley, Merlot, for example does really well and Carneros, and, and Oak Knoll, and Stags Leap I think, but you know, as you get further up valley it- it's not the optimal.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
Cabernet a late season ripener so it benefits from the extra heat.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Dave Ramey:
So we were gonna do that and then he had some uh, business reversals an- and, decided not do. But he changed gears and asked me if I would come manage Dominus, and so I- I raised some objections, I said you can't afford me. He said no, I'll take care of that-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughter)
Dave Ramey:
I said, you know "But you don't make any white wine" and this was the genesis of Ramey wine cellars Christian-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay.
Dave Ramey:
... said "Well if want to make a little Chardonnay on the side, that's okay.". And so, you know, light bulb went off, and I knew Larry Hyde from Matanzas Creek-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... I bought his Semillon to go into the Sauvignon Blanc and he found me some grapes, and so we started Ramey Wine Cellars, 1996, with 260 cases of Hyde Vineyard Chardonnay.
Doug Shafer:
So that's when it started, so, so-
Dave Ramey:
And the other thing I said was you, you know, but you don't have a winery because they'd always been custom crushing at Rombauer. He said no, you'd be in charge of building that. And so, I was. That was really the biggest thing I did while I was there, was sort of shepard the, the winery construction process.
Doug Shafer:
Cause it's a beauti- that's a beautiful building.
Dave Ramey:
Well it is-
Doug Shafer:
It's, and so this is the Dominus winery which is located in the middle of the vineyard property-
Dave Ramey:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Which was... it's a 100 plus acres.
Dave Ramey:
Something like that, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And it was the originally John Daniels vineyard-
Dave Ramey:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
John Daniels was the guy who started Inglenook-
Dave Ramey:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
... years ago. And, I think the vineyard was called Napanook?
Dave Ramey:
Napanook, yup.
Doug Shafer:
Famous vineyard and it's just uh, its in the out field just north of the town on the on the east side... Sorry, west side of the highway.
Dave Ramey:
Ac- actually jus- just right, right west of it. Straight across the street if you-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Its-
Dave Ramey:
... if you, you know, th- the Northern crossroads. There's two crossroads-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
The north crossroad is just you know, its straight across and you go right into Dominus.
Doug Shafer:
It's a beautiful pocket for Cabernet. Markham's got it great vineyard right, just north of there. And so, that's almost directly across the valley from Shafer and Stags Leap. So that, that's the property you were building the winery, he didn't have white wine... Larry Hyde is a wonderful grower, grape grower in Carneros, we all adore. This guy is a profes- he's a perfectionist at growing grapes-
Dave Ramey:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Doug Shafer:
... and so he gave you some grapes, that was the start of Ramey Cellars.
Dave Ramey:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
And Christian was okay with that? You having your own brand?
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Dave Ramey:
But he didn't want me to make it at, at Dominus. Which was fine because the first year was at Rombauer, anyway.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
So I called my friend John Kongsgaard who had just left Newton-
Doug Shafer:
He left Newton-
Dave Ramey:
... to go to Luna.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
And I said, I, kind of jokingly, I said " So John, you gonna, you gonna make, custom crush my wine for me?" And he said "You bet, that's half of what we're doing."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughter)
Dave Ramey:
So he started his brand, and I started my brand, at the same time 1996, and we were in uh we were both doing Chardonnay, and, you know him - h- h- John from- you know his parents property in Stone Crest-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
And then uh, me from Hyde and uh, yeah. I added Hudson in '97 so then we grew to like 1,000 cases.
Doug Shafer:
You were just down the road here at Luna, you're just two miles south from me-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, yeah we were at Luna.
Doug Shafer:
...I drive by there all the time I wish I knew you guys were there, I coulda stopped in and drunk beer with you. Gosh.
Dave Ramey:
And then, yeah, so and then, and then, but after a couple years with Christian, uh, I got introduced to Leslie Rudd, and decided to help him turn the Girard Winery into Rudd Estate and that enabled us to move our production from Luna to Rudd.
Doug Shafer:
Oh good.
Dave Ramey:
So it was just other, there were just other lots in the cellars. I mean I was in charge of production, and it was like, well you know, that's Ramey Hyde, that's Ramey Hudson, this is... And then I found, I found like, I found the Bacigalupi grapes for Les to make his own, you know his own Chardonnay And I accessed grapes from Sangiacomo and from, from Dutton and so I kinda got uh, that going.
Doug Shafer:
By the way, all these names that Mr. Ramey is uh, reciting here, these are fantastic growers, great grapes. He knows how to find good grapes.
Dave Ramey:
(Laughter)
Doug Shafer:
So Leslie Rudd bought Girard-
Dave Ramey:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
... from Steve Girard. Steve and Carol, on, that's on the corner of Oakville crossroad and Silverado Trail. And uh, they sold to Leslie Rudd, and he started Rudd Cellars that's the location. And how'd you, how did you meet Leslie? He's a character-
Dave Ramey:
I was having lunch with John and, said you know, "I might be, I might be interested in, moving on." And he said something to his then boss George Vare who's-
Doug Shafer:
I remember George.
Dave Ramey:
... since passed away, George knew about Les, and he knew Steve Girard. And so basically George Vare put Steve Girard and me-
Doug Shafer:
Together.
Dave Ramey:
... together, and then and then, then I went to meet Les, who was, he was renting Nancy Pelosi’s house and I and I walked in for, for dinner and he had some basketball am on. Les was intense, in a secretive way, on the surface pretty casual.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I never knew him well. We lost him about a year, over a ye-, well a couple years ago. But, he's the one that founded Dean and Deluca very successful.
Dave Ramey:
Well, he didn't found it, he bought it from the founders Georgio, Dean, and... Joel, Dean and Georgio Deluca, who I had the pleasure of having dinner with a couple of times in in Manhattan, Yeah and then then you know. Everything has an arc and Les kinda grew Dean and Luca and added outlets Georgetown, Charlotte North Carolina and uh, here in St. Helena, but now, then it, you know. Then he sold a new ownership-
Doug Shafer:
New ownership from -
Dave Ramey:
Now, and now our good friend Gary Fish is, is occupying the St Helena Dean and Deluca. Which is really good because it's a, it's a great physical store, and Gary is a consumate retailer-
Doug Shafer:
He's a wonderful wine guy.
Dave Ramey:
... yeah wonderful wine guy and he's gonna you know take care of all of us.
Doug Shafer:
Well he's, you know its great. Gary from New Jersey coming out to open up a new place. We're all kind of anticipating that. That's so cool. So you're with Girard, no I'm sorry. Rudd for four five years, and then at that point you just kind of, opened up your own shop, or continue. Cause you're, the Ramey brand is growing.
Dave Ramey:
So, yeah we, we grew, it's just amazing. You shouldn’t-couldn't do it today, except with really cheap wine, we went from, we were 260 cases, 1,000, 1,000, 1,650, 75 hundred, 15 and a half thousand, 22 and a half thousand. Now, that happened because-
Doug Shafer:
What were you thinking? (Laughter) That's fast.
Dave Ramey:
See the Girard Chardonnay program had been sort of, you know, Chardonnay and reserve Chardonnay. And I said well we're not gonna do that, cause reserve concepts dead-
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Dave Ramey:
... And we're going to go where the grapes are good. Chardonnay wants cooler climate like Carnero and Russian River, I went back to the Sangiacomos, I went to the Duttons and I created, for Les, The Russian River Chardonnay, and a Carneros Chardonnay.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
And, so then I found the Bacigalupi Chardonnay so, which were some of the grapes that went into the Paris, you know the Montelana-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
Paris tasting Chardonnay, and I told, after, by Spring I said Les, I said I found your topnotch vineyard. And he said "Good, buy it all.".
Doug Shafer:
(Laughter)
Dave Ramey:
So we went from like 20 tons, to 120 tons-
Doug Shafer:
Aw, man.
Dave Ramey:
... between, I wanna say '99 and 2000. And -
Doug Shafer:
But that was a good time, business was good then-
Dave Ramey:
Business was good-
Doug Shafer:
... you're selling wine. Everybody was selling wine.
Dave Ramey:
... but, but, but still the sales manager at the time for Les was afraid of having that much wine to sell. And so I was charged then with selling 45 hundred cases, I think, if the 75 hundred on the bulk market.
Doug Shafer:
Ooh.
Dave Ramey:
And at the time we were living I uh- Carla and I and our kids in Glen Ellen and uh I was sitting out on uh- we had sort of like a tree house in the middle of the Oak trees and I was sitting out on the deck afterwards with a glass of port and I had this idea, I told Carla we should buy that wine, and god bless her, she said yes.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughter)
Dave Ramey:
Cause basically I spend it, she pays for it. And, so I went into Les the next day, I said "Les, I want to buy the, uh, I want to buy the bulk Chardonnay myself, I'll give you, Ill give you a buck a gallon more than whatever you know, market it" The first thing he said was "Fine. Buy the Carneros too."
Dave Ramey:
Because he never wanted to make cheap wine, and you know $35 Chardonnay was cheap wine.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
You know? You want to make $65 Chardonnay.
Doug Shafer:
Right right.
Dave Ramey:
Okay. Um, but this, this next story is good, you know. I- I- I really, I mean, Les was both frustrating, and and and charming all at the same time. But here's an example of something that I learned from him, made it a win win. He said "Fine, but I wanna get my money out of it. I want to get book value, which is more like $24 a gallon-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... Instead of $16 a gallon.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
So you're paying me book value for it, but you don't have to pay me until you sell the wine.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Dave Ramey:
That's win win.
Doug Shafer:
That's win win.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.
Dave Ramey:
So that's how we grew so fast. I took over the Russian River and Carneros Chardonnay programs from ... that I created for Les, because he didn't want to make cheap wine anymore.
Doug Shafer:
He didn't-
Dave Ramey:
You know. So that's, so, so-
Doug Shafer:
... That's how you grew it.
Dave Ramey:
... So we grew. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
How neat. How nice.
Dave Ramey:
Then we started adding other vineyards. We added Ritchie-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
... I, I think in '01. And, then we started adding, we a- we, we started adding Cabernet-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
... In '01. Yeah. So I kept, I kept, I was, I was bullish for f- q- for quite a while. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
W- I know y- well, and, and so you're 30, 40,000 cases, I think. Something like that.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. 30. 35.
Doug Shafer:
And it's mostly Sonoma? Mostly Sonoma fruit?
Dave Ramey:
It-
Doug Shafer:
I think you got - yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... It is. It is. And, and, and increasingly, I ... When we started, uh, our, our Cabernet has been Napa Valley you know-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... From, from '01. But, with the escalation of, uh ... There's two things. I mean, the, the, the success of tourism in Napa Valley-
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Dave Ramey:
... Has caused escalation of Cabernet pricing. And, I'll be honest, I, I came to the conclusion that without a storefront in Napa Valley to compete for the tourist trade, I couldn't compete.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
People don't, you know, and we bought this 75-acre parcel where we, now we got the permit to build a winery, but it's, it's on Westside Road a mile south of Rochioli, across from Russian River, across from, uh ... Excuse me, uh, across from, uh, Williams Selyem.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
And, and so we're starting a Russian River Pinot program, and, and shrinking our Napa footprint and starting to dabble in some Sonoma County Cabernets. So-
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Dave Ramey:
... So there's, I think ... and this is a natural process.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
But it, it takes, it takes a while to-
Doug Shafer:
It takes time.
Dave Ramey:
... Figure things out, I guess.
Doug Shafer:
So you're g- you're going to break ground pretty soon on the, on the winery?
Dave Ramey:
Well, we-
Doug Shafer:
We hope.
Dave Ramey:
... We're, uh, we're (laughs) we're ... It's been an expensive process getting to this point.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
And so now we're trying to put a few more, uh, sheckles in the bank before, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Jumping into that.
Dave Ramey:
... Before launching. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Okay. And, uh, you started a second winery or a side ... What ... The Sidebar Cellars.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. Uh-
Doug Shafer:
Tell me about that.
Dave Ramey:
... Second label.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
It's not a, not a second winery.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
But, but it's a second label that, you know, we have a little fun with. I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... You know, we ma- we make a Kerner from Lodi, uh, uh, Sauvignon Blanc, you know, an old red field blend, which we now call Vine's End. So, you know, it's, it's, it's small. Um, we'll see. We'll see what happens.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Dave Ramey:
You know, hasn't ... I have to say, I don't think it's set the world on fire, but, there are also 50% more labels now than there were 10 years ago. It's become-
Doug Shafer:
Is it th- is it that much?
Dave Ramey:
... A ver- yeah. A very-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Dave Ramey:
... Complicated market, and at, at the same time in the three tier system, um, there's, you know, consolidation.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
Used to have Southern and Glazer's. Now you've got Southern Glazer's. You know?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Uh, use to have Republic and National. Then you had RNDC.
Doug Shafer:
The whole thing.
Dave Ramey:
You used to have RNDC, and, and Young's, and now you're going to have RNDC and Young's, you know, and, um, or b- yeah. I think that's what it is. Yeah. It was going to be breakthrough.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I can't, I c- I c- yeah. I can't keep track of it.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. Can't-
Doug Shafer:
But the good news is you've been doing this a while. You make great wines, and people know the Ramey name, so-
Dave Ramey:
... (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... So that's, uh, that's good news.
Dave Ramey:
Well, I'm, I'm ... Thanks. I w- I wouldn't want to be starting now.
Doug Shafer:
No. It'd be tough.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And speaking of Ramey, there's more. Your kids are, your kids are working with you now?
Dave Ramey:
Kids are.
Doug Shafer:
How's that going?
Dave Ramey:
... Alan just turned 27. Claire's going to be 29, here in August. And, she's a little more on the, on the vineyard and wine side. Alan is a little more on the, on the marketing and business side.
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Dave Ramey:
So they can stay out of each other's hair.
Doug Shafer:
Smart.
Dave Ramey:
And, they, they, uh-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
... As far as I know, they get along well. You know? Like each other and enjoy each other's company. So-
Doug Shafer:
That must, that must be fun.
Dave Ramey:
... So it's-
Doug Shafer:
That must be so-
Dave Ramey:
... It's totally fun. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... Yeah. Good.
Dave Ramey:
And I'm, I'm sort of elevating myself more to the, to the chairmanship, and delegating, you know, as much as I can.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I like to delegate. That's one of my favorite things to do.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs) That's-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
... At, at a, at a certain point, you know, y- you have, you got to, you got to keep your eye on the big picture, you know?
Doug Shafer:
The big picture. Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
And it takes time.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah. And-
Dave Ramey:
It takes y-
Doug Shafer:
... We need to go out and have lunch and talk about the big picture. That's-
Dave Ramey:
... This is something, yeah, that happens.
Doug Shafer:
... Yeah. (laughs)
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So how do people find your wines? What's the best way? If there is.
Dave Ramey:
Well, of course, we love it when they buy direct from us, which would be rameywine.com.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
Um, that's singular, not, not plural, and no period, just rameywine, R-A-M-E-Y-W-I-N-E dot com. But as with, as with you, Doug, you know, when you're 35, 40,000, we are broadly distributed.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
We're in all 50 states and 28 foreign countries, and while we may not be in, i- in chain retail, uh, i- in any one town, the, the fine wine retailers-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... You know, likely have our wine. Certainly, certainly the restaurants. We're about 70% on premise.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. It's, I see it. I see it on a lot of, lot of wine lists.
Dave Ramey:
So-
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Dave Ramey:
... We're-
Doug Shafer:
Well, listen, my friend. Thank you for coming in.
Dave Ramey:
... (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
It's great to see you, great to hear your story, and, have a good harvest.
Dave Ramey:
Doug, thanks for inviting me. It's been fun.
Doug Shafer:
All right. Thanks, Dave.