Heidi Barrett

Full Transcript

Doug: Hey everybody, ah, Doug Shafer. Welcome back to another episode of The Taste. I am delighted to have a good friend of mine in studio, or The Blue Room as we call it, um, who I haven't seen in a while, but, I, we, we- our paths have tracked, uh, fairly a parallel network all the way. But uh, it's Heidi Peterson Barrett, a very famous winemaker here in Napa Valley. And before I let you go ... Well welcome Heidi.

Heidi:
Thank you very much. 

Doug:
Um, but before we get into this I just ... yeah, I was thinking about you last night or yesterday in prep for this, and I was thinking about you know where you- you and I first met. And I know I was at Davis, I-I know you were there. I don't think we really had classes together, we were a year apart-

Heidi:
Okay-

Doug:
... unless you remember something?

Heidi:
I don't remember, but I think we were there at the same time. We may have crossed paths but we didn't really know each other well then, yeah.

Doug:
Right. So we didn't run the same circles, which is understandable cause I-I I ran with a lot of derelicts. Um, but so is back in the Valley, it was in the mid-80s, and I ... before I met you I met your husband Bo at a wine tasting, and maybe a cocktail party. Didn't know him very well. And then what happened, where I think I definitely met you, but I can't remember the specifics, was the annual Chateau Montelena post-harvest toga party.

Heidi:
Oh, it could have been that.

Doug:
Is the toga party.

Heidi:
Yes. Quite memorable!

Doug:
(laughs)

Heidi:
(laughs)

Doug:
Well, they're memorable but they're kind of hazy, you know, because-

Heidi:
True-

Doug:
... it was ... this was, folks, this was after harvest, we were all very active working winemakers, cellar rats, and after harvest when all the grapes are in and things have settled down, Bo and his crew at Chateau Montelena would always, ah, have a post-harvest party for all the working cellar grunts out there-

Heidi:
That's right-

Doug:
You and I were included in that.

Heidi:
That's right.

Doug:
And uh, it was a toga party, so you put your toga on and we went up and-

Heidi:
Off you go.

Doug:
Off we go.

Heidi:
Yeah-

Doug:
And needless to say we-

Heidi:
We're ready to drink-

Doug:
... had wonderful times-

Heidi:
... and dance, at that point, after we'd survived harvest.

Doug:
So I think that's where I first met you-

Heidi:
It could've been-

Doug:
... even though the specifics aren't there.

Heidi:
Wearing a toga, I'm really not that surprised!

Doug:
(laughs)

Heidi:
(laughs)

Doug:
So welcome Heidi. Um-

Heidi:
Thank you.

Doug:
Let's ... I want to go back to the start. Tell me about growing up? Mom, dad, sister, where were you?

Heidi:
Wow, you want the works, huh?

Doug:
Yeah. I want- I want the works.

Heidi:
Okay. Uh gosh, well, growing up in mostly the Napa Valley actually, but going back before that, my- my parents, um, lived in Berkeley a bit. When I was born, ah, my dad was at University of Berkeley, there, getting his PhD in Agricultural Chemistry. So I was actually born in Berkeley, and then his first job was for Gallo, in Modesto. He was kind of a food science, agriculture whiz, and a job came up in the research department at- at Gallo, in 1958. So off our family moved to Modesto-

Doug:
To Modesto-

Heidi:
Yes, where my little sister was born, two years later. And-

Doug:
So you were a- a little baby? You were a little girl?

Heidi:
Was a baby-

Doug:
Two or three years-

Heidi:
Born in '57, so yeah, I was like one. I do not remember this, of course.

Doug:
You don't remember Modesto?

Heidi:
I do remember a bit of it when I was, you know, a little bit older, but we moved after, let's see, fifth grade-

Doug:
Okay-

Heidi:
... and we moved up to Napa Valley in 1968, yeah. So we lived in Modesto for 10 years, when I was a little kid. And my dad worked in the- the biggest lab on the planet at that time-

Doug:
Right-

Heidi:
... at Gallo, as their Research Director, in charge of new product development. So some of their mainstays, like Gallo Hearty Burgundy, were inventions of my dad back in those days which is pretty cool. And at that time he met, also, Dimitri Tchelistcheff was working in the same lab.

Doug:
Okay. Dimi- 

Heidi:
So ...

Doug:
Dimitri son of ...?

Heidi:
Son of famous Andre Tchelistcheff, yes.

Doug:
Got it.

Heidi:
And so he got to know, ah, Dimitri really well, and through Dimitri met Andre. And my dad was also a pilot so he would fly up with Dimitri to Napa Valley to go have lunch with Andre, with Dimitri. They would land at that little dirt strip, the Gambles, Gambles dirt strip ...

Doug:
Oh, on- 

Heidi:
... over in Rutherford-

Doug:
... is that the one by Whitehall Lane?

Heidi:
Yeah, by Whitehall Lane, yeah. They used to have the Chili Ball out there for a while-

Doug:
That's right. I remember that.

Heidi:
There were a lot of things that happened out there. I don't think it's there anymore but-

Doug:
So they just would land a pla- there was this like there wasn't any-

Heidi:
Yeah-

Doug:
You just landed-

Heidi:
Dirt strip. Just land-

Doug:
Just land it.

Heidi:
Yeah, just fly up and land. Yeah.

Doug:
No FAA. No TSA. No- 

Heidi:
No. No. Private land, you could do that.

Doug:
Okay. This is 1960s probably?

Heidi:
This is, yes, in the '60s. 

Doug:
Yeah. Got it.

Heidi:
For sure. Yeah. Mid 60s I'd say. 

Heidi:
Yeah, so um, Andre got to know my dad, pretty well, with Dimitri, and realized he was, you know, just brainy, as we call him in the family 'the rocket scientist' of our family.

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
And chose him to be his successor when he was ready to, um, retire from B.V. So that was kind of our intro, how we moved up to St. Helena in 1968. My dad became winemaker for Beaulieu Vineyard in Rutherford then.

Doug:
Wow.

Heidi:
Yeah. And yeah, so I would have been going into, like, sixth grade then-

Doug:
Sixth grade?

Heidi:
Yep. I went to R.L.S. Good old R.L.S-

Doug:
In '68, R.L.S-

Heidi:
Yep. In St. Helena.

Doug:
That's the local middle school.

Heidi:
That's right.

Doug:
Well I'm going to interrupt you because I wanna to give a plug to your dad's book. 

Heidi:
Oh great.

Doug:
So Heidi's dad is Dr. Dick Peterson and he wrote a great book called The Winemaker.

Heidi:
Right-

Doug:
And it basically tracks his story, and by the way, I'm going to get him in here in the seat you're sitting in-

Heidi:
That'd be great-

Doug:
Because I love this book and I just, um-

Heidi:
He's a great storyteller. 

Doug:
It was fantastic. And, um, he was a Navy pilot, I think, was he?

Heidi:
Ah-

Doug:
Did he fly in the Navy?

Heidi:
He flew for ... uh, he was a Marine-

Doug:
A Marine. Okay-

Heidi:
... and then he flew for the National Guard, also.

Doug:
Got it.

Heidi:
Yeah. 

Doug:
And though, but, so he tells the story of his first job at Gallo, and we're not going to go into it here but they're just fantastic, but it's-

Heidi:
That chapter in the book is awesome.

Doug:
Ah, it's the best. 

Heidi:
(Laughs)

Doug:
And, that th- the one line he kept repeating, "You just can't make good wine outta Thompson's seedless grapes."

Heidi:
(laughs)

Doug:
You know, Thompson's seedless ... those are the table grapes you buy in the grocery store.

Heidi:
Right. He's so right about that.

Doug:
And Gallo had a lot of acres of Thompson's seedless. But uh, his stories were great. But it, his- hi- the book tells kind of the ... and then as he moved up here with, to work with Andre, in the 60s, it's kinda the-

Heidi:
Yes-

Doug:
... the history and story of, well-

Heidi:
Of California wine, in a way-

Doug:
Gallo, but California wine ...

Heidi:
Yeah-

Doug:
... and Napa Valley in that '60s, you know, up till '70. We got here in '73, you know, and then things really started to go, but-

Heidi:
That's right-

Doug:
So you guys show up. It's '68 ... because I got here in '73 and it was pretty quiet when I got here.

Heidi:
Yeah. 

Doug:
It must have been really quiet?

Heidi:
Extremely quiet, yeah. 

Doug:
So, what was life like in St. Helena in 1968?

Heidi:
Super-quiet as you said, there was just ... you know, there weren't any great restaurants really-

Heidi:
I mean-

Doug:
Right-

Heidi:
... it was just a sleepy little town. There was, you know, actually a little dime store. Um, one grocery store. There was just not much happening. But it was a happy time, I think, families got together and we made our own fun, it was one of those kinda towns. And my sister and I were into horses, we had backyard horses so I remember, you know, riding all up in the hills and all the fire trails. And there were no real fences in between vineyards then so you could just literally ride across different people's property and visit neighbors and we would just take the horses bareback.

Doug:
Could you- could you ride downtown?

Heidi:
You could, yeah.

Doug:
Downtown ... go to Taylor's, was still there.

Heidi:
(laughs)

Doug:
Right? Would ya-

Heidi:
Yeah. We never did ride em downtown, but we used to ride em down to take em to the vet once a year, so we didn't have a horse trailer, so we would just ride the horses off to the vet over there on Ehlers Lane.

Doug:
Got it.

Heidi:
So it would, you know, it would take us a while to get there. But we, um, we'd ride em there, get their shots, and then we'd ride em home. And uh, yeah, it was quite fun. It was a very, very sleepy rural little place but really very lovely.

Doug:
Is that Tony Gouveia, the vet?

Heidi:
It was yes.

Doug:
Dr. Gouveia. 

Heidi:
Dr. Gouveia.

Doug:
On Ehlers Lane, which is north of St. Helena-

Heidi:
That's right-

Doug:
About three miles. 

Heidi:
That's right.

Doug:
God, how fun!

Heidi:
It was. It was.

Doug:
And your- and your mom was an artist?

Heidi:
My mom was an artist. Yes, she was. Yeah. So-

Doug:
Which- which we'll talk about more later.

Heidi:
Okay.

Doug:
You're an artist to?

Heidi:
I am-

Doug:
So it's- it's-

Heidi:
I got the influence of both parents, definitely.

Doug:
Well ... and early on you showed some talent, and your sister. Heidi has a- a lovely sister Holly who's a wonderful chef, very accomplished. And I know her well, also. But the two of you were tigers, because I'm- I'm going to read your quote from your mom.

Heidi:
Okay-

Doug:
This is- this is Heidi's mom: "When we were in Modesto, one year Heidi and Holly entered 13 crafts at the Stanislaus County Fair.

Heidi:
(Laughs)

Doug:
And won 13 awards."

Heidi:
(Laughs)

Doug:
So, um, what was that? What was ... you guys just cranked it out?

Heidi:
Oh my gosh! I guess so. You know, with an artistic mom, she would get us going on art projects, and so we- we loved it, we thought it was a blast. So we did all kinds of drawings and paintings and we did some little ceramics and different things. And, uh, later we did flower arranging, and they had the floral division so we'd, you know, really work on our creations, and gather little creative containers and- and pick the different themes to go out and pick wildflowers, or whatever we had growing in the yard, to enter- enter all those things.
Yeah, it was so fun.

Doug:
That's wild. And so I'm- I'm thinking, I'm just tracking this time period, reading your dad's book, you know and everything he learned from Andre, and you know the widow at B.V. and then when, um, what was the corporation that came in? Heublein came in?

Heidi:
Heublein bought them. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
And the- the corporate thing, and the ups and the downs, and the- and the trials and tribulations. So you're in junior high, you're in high school, were you-, were you aware of any of that stuff going on?

Heidi:
I was. And it was interesting for me to read the book after, because I was, ya know, aware of some of it but not all of it.

Doug:
Huh. 

Heidi:
And I would hear him come home and he'd be frustrated with-

Doug:
Right-

Heidi:
... some of the corporate ideas. And I remember him talking to my mom about that, and I didn't really know all the ins and out of it ... outs of it, as a little kid, and I pre-, I appreciate them sort of protecting us from getting too deep into that, really. But we- we were aware of it, both my sister and I think, peripherally, a little bit, but getting the details more of it in the book was really interesting to me because I ... you know I recognize and go "I remember that but I didn't know this about it." Or whatever it was. 
Um, yeah, he was- he was very frustrated by them coming in. And I do remember some of the, uh, Madame de Pins stories, for sure, are just priceless. And you know different people at- at B.V. and Tao Rosenbrand was a dear family friend. 

Doug:
Oh yeah.

Heidi:
And they were very close to our families. I remember, you know, a lot ... doing a lot of things with the Rosenbrand family. They had two sons about our age and so-

Doug:
Right. I went to school with one of them.

Heidi:
... they're like, they feel like my cousins.

Doug:
Ron.

Heidi:
Yeah-

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
... Ron. I still see Ron from time to time.

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
Yeah. Nice family. So a lot of B.V. good memories too, visiting- visiting the winery then and all of that.

Doug:
Well, you- your comments about being aware, but not all the details, it was interesting, um, and when I say this I'm not- I'm not plugging my book, even ... I'm not plugging my book, but I wrote a quick book on the history of Shafer here, over the last 30 or 40 years-

Heidi:
Oh that's great-

Doug:
A couple of years ago. In fact your dad and I were exchanging books, that's what was fun.

Heidi:
Nice.

Doug:
But my daughter, who's 33, read the book. 

Heidi:
Uh-huh. (affirmative)

Doug:
And when I started at Shafer, as you know, first year at a winery, and I walked into a mess-

Heidi:
Yeah-

Doug:
It was - it was a lot of work to fix things. It was, you know, round the clock, seven day weeks. It was tough. And um, and painful. And um, Katy called me up, after she read the book and she said "Dad, 1986, ‘87-

Heidi:
She probably had no idea-

Doug:
You know. "I was two and Kevin was six months old, and you were dealing with all that too." She says "Oh my gosh how did you do it?" It was really sweet.

Heidi:
Aw.

Doug:
But she had no, no clue and I'm, I'm-

Heidi:
That's right-

Doug:
And I think about our kids, you know yours also, not knowing some of the-

Heidi:
Exactly-

Doug:
... things we've gone through.

Heidi:
That's right.

Doug:
Part of raising kids.

Heidi:
It is. I know. 

Doug:
So high school? Ah, Justin-Siena? 

Heidi:
That's right.

Doug:
Which is great school in Napa.

Heidi:
Tis.

Doug:
And you graduated from there and then off to Davis?

Heidi:
Well, a little bit of a diversion, so-

Doug:
Oh. Where'd you go?

Heidi:
Well I went to, actually, Notre Dame, in Salinas, is where I graduated from. My family moved-

Doug:
Oh-

Heidi:
... uh, after Junior year. So, ah, Siena was ... Justin-Siena used to be, Siena was the girl's school-

Doug:
Right-

Heidi:
Justin was the boy's school, so-

Doug:
That's right. Thank you.

Heidi:
So it was actually Siena when I went there. And then my last year, junior year, it became Justin-Siena and we started having more classes, you know, with the- with the men folk-

Doug:
Right-

Heidi:
... on the other side of the line. 

Doug:
(Laughs)

Heidi:
And then my family moved. My dad left B.V. and we moved down to Monterey, actually.

Doug:
And that's when he started the whole Monterey vineyards.

Heidi:
Yeah so my high last of high school was actually down in, um, the Monterey area, which was a hard transition. You know, obviously, you finally make friends in school, and all of that-

Doug:
Oh yeah. 

Heidi:
I was a pretty shy kid so I was kind of just gettin- getting established there and then, you know, uprooted out to make all new friends as a senior was- was tough, but I think it was- it was actually good for me, and uh, and I still have some friends down there which is great. And Monterey's a beautiful area, although, you know, mostly I would just kind of visit in the summers. After I left there, um, after col- after, sorry, high school, then I went UC Davis, so then I was mostly just back for, ya know, summers in the Monterey area, and I worked at the Monterey vineyard for all my summers out of college and all of that.

Doug:
So you were ... so ... in high school your dad's a winemaker. You were totally aware of what the cycles like, the grapes, the whole thing?

Heidi:
That's right.

Doug:
And then through the who- and then through college?

Heidi:
Yeah. So I used to ride with him to- to work, um, in the summers, to the Monterey vineyard, either working in the cellar, or a bottling line, or lab ... they were inventing, developing the wines for Taylor California Cellars at that time.

Doug:
Right. Right.

Heidi:
I don't know what happened with that, if that's even still a thing, probably not.

Doug:
Haven't seen. I haven't seen it.

Heidi:
Yeah. I haven't seen it running for a long time. But anyway the preliminary blends I got to help work on those, in the lab. Um, but a lot of cellar work, tasting room, whatever I would just, you know ... for hire college kid, so.

Doug:
Did you, at that time, in high school or well, college you were studying fermentation sci- science, but in high school were you thinking "Gee this what I what to do. This is my career."? Or "This is-

Heidi:
Not really-

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
Not until kind of senior year, like "Wow. Where are you going to go? What do you want to do?" And I'd already been working, even when we lived, uh, in St. Helena, that was my summer job too, I worked for the Lighters Vine Nursery, over there on Dowdell Lane-

Doug:
Jim Lighter?

Heidi:
Jim Lighter. I worked for Jim Lighter, yeah.

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
And suckering vines out there, and um, counting the canes for, you know, bundles for budwood for people, and bundle them up in bags- in bundles of 25, ready to- to sell. Um, that was you know a good high school job.

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
So I already had been working a little bit in vineyard and definitely a lot of cellar stuff at the Monterey Vineyard, so, um, when it came time to pick a college, like "Well maybe I'll try- maybe I'll try Davis?" I fortunately got in, because it's the only place I applied ...

Doug:
(laughs)

Heidi:
... and just went straight ... didn't have a back-up plan, just straight into the wine department.

Doug:
Listen to you. I gotta, I gotta kick back to high school real quickly, because you and I have more in common than you know about.

Heidi:
Yeah?

Doug:
I had to move junior year in high school too.

Heidi:
Really? I had no idea. 

Doug:
Yeah. We moved out from Chicago-

Heidi:
Wow-

Doug:
In my junior year. So Salinas-

Heidi:
Character building isn't it?

Doug:
It is. Uh, Salinas was a, high- larger high school than St. Helena?

Heidi:
No.

Doug:
About the same?

Heidi:
It was small, small girl's school. 

Doug:
Okay. Larger than Siena?

Heidi:
Almost the same as Justin-Siena, yeah. Notre Dame was the girl's school. Palma down the down the street was the boy's school-

Doug:
Got it-

Heidi:
... about four blocks away.

Doug:
Cause I went from a high school in Chicago; 2500 kids, to St. Helena high; 4 or 500. 

Heidi:
Wow.

Doug:
Which was a shock but it also was much easier than if I'd gone the other way, 500 to 2500 ... so.

Heidi:
That would've been scary.

Doug:
Yeah. That would've been scary.

Heidi:
Yep.

Doug:
But uh, but I, you know at age 17, was the first time I saw a grapevine. Unlike ...

Heidi:
Oh my gosh!

Doug:
So off to Davis. You and I were there ... I was there, I think a year ahead of you, because I graduated high school '74.

Heidi:
Okay.

Doug:
Um, but ah, did you do an internship in Germany? Is that what I got?

Heidi:
I did. So that was later, in Davis-

Doug:
Was that during Davis?

Heidi:
So that was 1979.

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
So I was at Davis from '75, I guess the fall of '75 through, uh, 1980-

Doug:
Okay-

Heidi:
And I worked in Germany, 1979, so I took off fall quarter of '79 to go work in Württemberg in southern Germany where they make half red wine and half white. It was fascinating and I learned a ton there.

Doug:
How fun.

Heidi:
It was. 

Doug:
Was that ... does that hook up, set up through the Enology Department at Davis? How'd that work?

Heidi:
No it was actually my dad, my dad's connection with Peter Sichel-

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
They- they found that for me, that it was available. And it was big co-op where I worked in [Muegling?] in this little town and-

Doug:
(Laughs)

Heidi:
And yeah, it was huge. It was the second biggest winery in Germany, so there were actually tunnels connecting the buildings underground, you would go through tunnels to get to different cellars. Huge, huge warehouse style-

Doug:
Yeah-

Heidi:
... ah, buildings. And a lot of guest workers from Italy, and you know different places, working in Germany, in the cellar. Uh, I lived with the family of the winemaker and he really kind of took me under his wing and let me move around the cellar quite a bit. I did mostly cellar work, but anytime there were blend trials or taste trials of any kind he would you know definitely go find me and- and bring me into taste-

Doug:
Oh that's nice-

Heidi:
... combinations of wines. So I learnt a lot about balance there. Really I-I I can credit that to him, about the idea of roundness in a wine. In German it's the world 'rund', so "here is rund," "here is nicht rund." Either it's round or it's not and that has stuck with me-

Doug:
Wow-

Heidi:
... to this day. With any component you could do that, and I-I really ... that just, I glommed onto that, you know right away.

Doug:
Round and not round, so you're talking-

Heidi:
Yeah-

Doug:
Are you talking tannin ... are you talking round tannins, or not round tannins?

Heidi:
Anything. Either the wine feels round and complete in your- in your mouth, or it doesn't. So it ... yeah, it could be tannin, and it could be alcohol, it could be acidity. Um, these were some of the ones I really remember was, uh, sugar additions actually, which we're not allowed to do as you know-

Doug:
Right-

Heidi:
But they could add sort of a concentrated syrup to certain qualities of wines where the grapes, they don't get nearly the sunshine and ripeness that we do here-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Heidi:
... and they're allowed to add sweetener. So, it's concentrated sugar from other grapes-

Doug:
Right-

Heidi:
... and they are allowed to pump in however many liters per, you know-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Heidi:
... thousand gallons, or hectoliter, whatever-

Doug:
Right-

Heidi:
... their measurements are. 

Heidi:
And so I worked with one other woman in the cellar there, Frau Wilhelm. I will never forget her. Renata Wilhelm. I don't know where she is now, but she was, um, very uh sturdy, let's just say! Very sturdy and could be intimidating, but the two of us got paired off to make the sugar.

Doug:
Did she speak- did she speak English?

Heidi:
She didn't. She spoke German. So my German was pretty good when I worked there-

Doug:
Okay. I was going to say, alright. 

Heidi:
Yep. So I-I worked with her and we became ... we were in charge of the sugar additions in the cellars, so you're literally pumping in-

Doug:
This concentrated syrupy, yeah-

Heidi:
Oh my gosh, hundreds of liters of- of, you know, Tank 37 gets 137 liters.

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
Tank 40 gets 250, whatever it is. So we're just running the pump. Ya know, watching the flow meter pumping in all this sugar-

Doug:
Right-

Heidi:
And sometimes when you feed the, you know, feed the yeast, that much sugar, it's just overflowing volcano-

Doug:
Right-

Heidi:
... in the cellars, so they're going nuts. So anyway we became dubbed 'the sugar queens' actually.

Doug:
The sugar queens (Laughs). 

Heidi:
(Laughs). Frau Wilhem and I were the sugar queens of the cellar in 1979.

Doug:
Wow.

Heidi:
Yes. I know.

Doug:
And she was a tough customer?

Heidi:
She was tough, yeah. She was tough. Yeah.

Doug:
So like on breaks, ah, what would you guys do for din- lunch or breaks? What are you guys going to drink beer at lunch, or ...? I'm just thinking of the German thing-

Heidi:
Almost-

Doug:
I've got that stereotypical thing going on here. 

Heidi:
Oh my gosh, they bring like a full lunch at like the 10 o'clock break.

Doug:
At 10 o'clock?

Heidi:
They're have- Yeah. Huge, you know, feast of those giant pretzels, which are delicious. They, um, also would bring these huge, those big white daikon radishes, slicing off hunks of those, eating it right off the end of a knife. I've never seen anything like that, like at 10 o'clock break, where we would maybe go and get a cup of coffee-

Doug:
Right-

Heidi:
... and you know, whatever. They're full on having sandwiches and big pretzels and uh, you know like pieces of wurst-

Doug:
Yeah-

Heidi:
Different sausages and all kinds of ... already that's just at break.

Doug:
That's at 10 o'clock break?

Heidi:
10 o'clock break, yeah.

Doug:
When- when's lunch? Noon?

Heidi:
(Laughs) Two hours later.

Doug:
Two ...? (Laughs)

Heidi:
Yeah pretty much. And they had a cafeteria so they fed everybody at the cellar because it was so big, so you would just go into the lunch room and just get in the line and you know get whatever-

Doug:
Whatever you want-

Heidi:
... you wanted. Yeah. Yeah. It was quite something. 

Doug:
So that's why Frau was-

Heidi:
It was a great-

Doug:
... she's a sturdy gal!

Heidi:
She was.

Doug:
Okay. (Laughs)

Doug:
Well what a cool experience?

Heidi:
Yeah it was. I- I loved it.

Doug:
Because you're not out of college yet. You do that, then you came back. Where you ... you came back and finished up a quarter or two?

Heidi:
Yeah. So I came back, I would've come back around Christmas of '79, right back into school of, ya know, '80, and finished, um, just the, ah, winter and spring quarter and graduated in '80.

Doug:
Okay. 

Heidi:
Yeah. And that last quarter, really I only had I think nine units, the last quarter, because I- I had enough, uh, just about to graduate, but I stayed to row on the UC Davis women's crew.

Doug:
You rowed on crew?

Heidi:
I did.

Doug:
I didn't know that.

Heidi:
Yeah. So-

Doug:
Where did crew come from? Because crew's not like a real common sport?

Heidi:
I know. And I'd never done it before. So one of my room mates-

Doug:
Okay-

Heidi:
... was on the women's crew, and she said "You should- you should come try out for it," even though I hadn't been rowing the whole time. I'm just new and ... but pretty athletic, pretty strong-

Doug:
Yeah. Yeah-

Heidi:
... for sure. So I did, you know, started just running, doing stairs at the rec hall, around ... when we used to run stairs at the ...

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
... rec all up and down.

Doug:
I remember that.

Heidi:
All around. And you know lifting weights and all that stuff just to- just to pass ... just to even try to ah, you know, get on the team.

Doug:
Get on the team.

Heidi:
And we started with about 70 people that applied and they get down to the only 8 in the boat and one alternative and I made it, so I was- I was pretty stoked. It was fun.

Doug:
That's cool! Where'd ya, Where do you guys row in Davis? Because there's not a lot of water around Davis?

Heidi:
No. Not a lot of water in Davis, no. We went out to the port pf Sacramento. 

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
Yeah. So here's, you know, eight cute girls in a boat rowing next to the giant freighters that come in, you know dropping cargo. All these, you know, men on boats waving to our little team with our little pony tails.

Doug:
Lot of- lot of- lot of hooting and hollering. I bet.

Heidi:
I know. Yeah. And our coach in the launch, you know, going alongside of us as we're rowing up and down the Sacramento river there, um, you know, belting out orders and things like that, in his little launch with his outboard motor. So yeah, and then there was a men's team as well. 

Doug:
Right.

Doug:
The crew thing- Whenever I'm in Boston, I'm driving along the river and you see that folks out there and the crews, ya know, working out, ya know, practicing, and-

Heidi:
It always looks so peaceful.

Doug:
It looks really cool.

Heidi:
But there's a lot of power in eight people pulling on ores at the same time, just it's called "the swing of the boat." You just feel that rhythm of boom as soon as all the ores go in, and this big propulsion. It's really fun. It's just, it's exciting when you, ah ...

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
... experience that.

Doug:
Ya know, so, chase that down.

Heidi:
Yeah.

Doug:
So, after Davis, what happens, what happens with you next?

Heidi:
After Davis? Okay, time to find a job, right.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Heidi:
(laughs)

Doug:
Mem- memb, I've never, I remember the day in May in Davis, it was like when I was about to graduate, it was like-

Heidi:
Now what?

Doug:
Oh, I need to get serious. (Laughs)

Heidi:
Gotta find a job, yeah, so, yeah- 

Heidi:
Remember there was that job board at- at UC Davis ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Heidi:
... down the hall, everybody would be reviewing that and see what's, if any new jobs were posted.

Doug:
That's how I found Elias.

Heidi:
Really?

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
Oh, that's fantastic.

Doug:
I put it on there, yeah, it's pretty funny.

Heidi:
That was lucky.

Doug:
Yeah. Very lucky.

Heidi:
Yeah. So, I got hired by Justin Meyer, actually to work at Franciscan.

Doug:
That's Justin Meyer who founded Silver Oak.

Heidi:
That's right.

Doug:
Before that he was winemaker at Franciscan Vineyards.

Heidi:
That's right.

Doug:
North of St. Helena.

Heidi:
That's right.

Doug:
Franciscan. No, it was sa- I'm sorry. Si- Sib is down by, ah, Rutherford, Franciscan-

Heidi:
It's in Rutherford, yeah, Franciscan in- in, ah, yeah, in Rutherford kinda between Rutherford and St. Helena there.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Right.

Heidi:
Yeah, and at that time, Silver Oak didn't have its winery. Silver Oak was being made at Franciscan.

Doug:
Oh, okay.

Heidi:
And Justin was making both, at first. So, he hired me, he was a long-time friend of my parents ...

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
... when he was a Christian Brother before he, um, you know, branched out; and ended up getting married and raising a family and ...

Doug:
Crossed the line, I guess, yeah. (laughs)

Heidi:
Crossed the li- yep, yep. Switched, switched gears. But, ah, long-time family, so start with your friends when you need a job, I guess.

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
And, ah, I- I talked to him and he said, "Yeah, we- we need a cellar person." So I just went into the cellar, first; nothing fancy, that's for sure. Getting out of Davis then, you, you don't start at the top. You, ya know ...

Doug:
No.

Heidi:
... like, even now, you can't just start being a winemaker. You have to keep working your way up. So I was hired for just a cellar job there. And, then, I actually left there after harvest in '80 and went to work in Australia. So Spring of 1981 ...

Doug:
Oh.

Heidi:
... keep working on my internships, keep learning.

Doug:
I didn't know that. Okay.

Heidi:
Yeah. So I worked for Lindeman's in Australia in the spr-

Doug:
Another big operation, right?

Heidi:
Big, yes, big winery. They had like five different wineries. I worked for two of them. I worked in Coonawarra, down in South; and then also up in Tununda in the Barossa Valley. In 1981 and, again, learned a ton, more stuff that I can still use now. More of the idea of being versatile with wine making. Have more than one solution for a problem is a really good idea.

Heidi:
Um, just to, ya know, keep your, keep your options open.

Doug:
Keep, keep your options open.

Heidi:
Yeah. That's right.

Doug:
Smart.

Heidi:
That's right.

Heidi:
Yeah, so that was a great experience. And then came back and got re-hired at- at Franciscan. This time as Enologist. So, more lab, lab tech kinda stuff.

Doug:
And was Justin there?

Heidi:
Justin was not there then. He, ah, Bud Berg was then the winemaker there. Justin was back and forth, but really getting Silver Oak going ...

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
... in their own facility at that point. But we were still bottling Silver Oak, we- I remember, ah, going out to pull samples off the bottling line during bottling Select the 1979 Silver Oak was being ...

Doug:
Oh man.

Heidi:
... bottled then ...

Doug:
That's cool.

Heidi:
... and stuff like that. I know. I know.

Doug:
Cause Silver Oaks first vintage was probably '78, '77, something like that.

Heidi:
Something right around there, '78, I wanna say, yeah, something like that.

Doug:
Kay.

Heidi:
I think so. Yep, so those wines were made there then.

Doug:
And you're living in St. Helena, again. You've moved back.

Heidi:
I was living in, ah, St. Helena. Yes, I was.

Doug:
So, you came- ya know, after all those years, you're back.

Heidi:
Yeah, exactly, like, "I'm home!"

Doug:
And that's in the early '80s. And then, um-

Heidi:
Early '80s, Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Doug:
And so Franciscan for a couple- you're in the lab for a couple a years?

Heidi:
Just one.

Doug:
Just one.

Heidi:
Yeah, just one. And then I got hired away down to, ah, Bouchaine Vineyards to be Assistant Winemaker.

Doug:
Down in Carneros.

Heidi:
Yeah, down in Carneros at- with Jerry Luper was their winemaker, so at that time they were calling it Chateau Bouchaine.

Doug:
I remember that.

Heidi:
Not a chateau. (Laughs)

Doug:
(Laughs) Yeah, but it gives- no-

Heidi:
Far from it, but ...

Doug:
But when you say it, ya know, especially like on a podcast, it sounds like a chateau ...

Heidi:
Yes, it- it does. It does.

Doug:
... it's a vision, it's a vision.

Heidi:
It's a vision. So they've- they've changed it just to Bouchaine Vineyards these days, which is- is great. 

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Heidi:
Um, kind of a funky, very old-fashioned winery with cement tanks, ah-

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
... that were, ah, actually they drilled a hole in the side of one, cut a door in one, one of the square ...

Doug:
(Laughs)

Heidi:
... cement tanks became our lab. So, no windows, but there was one door in and one door out. No roof either.

Doug:
You were inside a tank?

Heidi:
In a tank for the lab, yes.

Doug:
That had to be really big tank.

Heidi:
It was, yeah, it was a good size tank.

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
Yeah, it was like a small bedroom size, sized tank...

Doug:
Yeah, got it.

Heidi:
Yeah, so, ah, I learned a lot from Jerry Luper, as well. I- I credit him with a lot of my fundamentals. Great, ya know, good technique, kinda traditional wine making stuff came from Jerry.

Doug:
Ya know, between the German experience, the Australia experience, growing up with your dad, Jerry Luper;

Heidi:
Yeah.

Doug:
Okay, now this is startin to kinda come together.

Heidi:
Startin to piece together.

Doug:
I didn't know all this about you.

Heidi:
Yeah, these are all my mentors feeding in.

Doug:
I just know you're a really nice person, you're a really good friend, and you make REALLY good wines.

Heidi:
Thanks.

Doug:
And now, it's like startin to kinda piece ...

Heidi:
Here's how it happened.

Doug:
The pieces are falling into place.

Heidi:
That's right.

Doug:
How cool. 

Doug:
Now, so your dad, there- that time- he was still down Monterey.

Heidi:
He was.

Doug:
So, would you- would you talk to him about stuff? Would call him up, say, "Hey, I'm pr- havin problem with this one tank? I mean ..."

Heidi:
Oh my gosh, all the time. And remember I said ...

Doug:
" ... my lactic's a little funny." Ya know, all that stuff?

Heidi:
Yes. When I use to ride to work with him in the summers, I chatted his ear off, poor guy. "Dad, what hap- this is what's happening what does that mean?"

Doug:
When you were in college. Coll- 

Heidi:
In college, yeah; going back to when I worked at the Monterey Vineyard in the summers, yeah, oh, I chatted his ear off big time. Ah-

Doug:
Cause you were seeing everything and you just were "What's goin on?"

Heidi:
Yeah, exactly.

Doug:
"What's goin on? What's goin on?"

Heidi:
That's right. That's right. So I, that's when I could really have that half hour drive each way of really getting to just spend time with him and ask him all kinds of stuff.

Doug:
It's not fair, man. I- that's not fair. I wanna be your brother.

Heidi:
(laughs)

Doug:
I wanna be your twin brother. I wanna be in that car too.

Doug:
Wow.

Heidi:
Yeah.

Heidi:
So then the Australia experience was, was great. And then worked for Jerry at Bouchaine, and then after that, ah- Oh there was a little stint up at Rutherford Hill, too. Um, on the night shift running centrifuges, believe it or not.

Doug:
(Laughs) 

Heidi:
I think that was ...

Doug:
Oh, those two things are go-

Heidi:
... 81 or 82. I think 82 maybe, that crush. Um-

Doug:
There are two things that, two things that scare me. Number one is night shift.

Heidi:
Yeah.

Doug:
That's gotta be kinda ugly.

Heidi:
Yeah. It was bad. Graveyard shift. I don't recommend it.

Doug:
It's like 11 to 7, or something like that?

Heidi:
Yeah, I think it was 10 to 6.

Doug:
10 to 6, 10.

Doug:
And centrifuge, which I remember seeing one of those when I was a tour guide in at Mondavi and then, it was like the new cool thing, this was in '79.

Heidi:
Right. Everybody jumped on that bandwagon.

Doug:
And those things don't, they just really tear a wine apart, don't they?

Heidi:
It's pretty hard on juice, for sure.

Doug:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Heidi:
Nobody uses them anymore fortunately, but at that time, everybody thought this would be a great way to clarify juice before it would start fermentation, but. Yeah, so, ah, yeah, I just did that for, ya know, maybe a month.

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
It was a kinda short lived and switching over to graveyard shift.

Doug:
(laughs)

Heidi:
Yeah, so then it was, I think that was before, ah, before Bouchaine actually.

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
And then from Bouchaine I got a call from John Buehler. And I got hired away to be his winemaker in 1983. So, that was my first job as Head Winemaker in 1983 when I was only 25-year-old.

Doug:
Now is John Buehler, Buehler Vineyards and his winery up on, um east of St. Helena ..,

Heidi:
That's right.

Doug:
... up, up the road goin back towards Lake Hennessy?

Heidi:
Exactly.

Doug:
Um, so 1983. Well, here's, we have another, we are just, I'm so embarrassed that we haven't ,we don't know this about each other. '83 is when Dad hired me as winemaker.

Heidi:
There we go.

Doug:
And I'd only had a year ...

Heidi:
Think that deserves a high five.

Doug:
High five. I'd only had a year and a half at Lake Spring ...

Heidi:
Yeah.

Doug:
... with Randy Mason who taught me a ton.

Heidi:
A lot. So he was one of your mentors.

Doug:
But, but I walked into a scary place with a lot of things, a lot of issues ...

Heidi:
I bet.

Doug:
... and it was, it was scary for me and, and, I was 27 or 8, but you were 25.

Heidi:
Yeah. Similar experience.

Doug:
How, what was it like for you?

Heidi:
Terrifying. Ya know. 

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
Am I ready? Do I know enough? Can I do this job? I don't wanna, ya know, do a bad job, certainly. I wanna make great wine. Do I- ya know, I remember just having some sleepless nights, a little anxiety about, I'm not sure I'm ready, but you kinda have to dive in. He felt confident that I was ready. And I, I was, ya know, close, certainly, and filled in the rest of the blanks on the job, basically. Ah-

Doug:
But I remember, I didn't know John well, but he seemed really supportive.

Heidi:
Super mellow, too. 

Doug:
Yeah, very mellow guy.

Heidi:
He's a really easy going guy and ...

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
Yeah, and he really needed help up there and I got to, ya know, kind of really improve the place. And, ya know, get things kinda dialed up, dialed in and I learned a lot there. Working up there too, I got to work with some interesting varieties like Pinot Blanc, which I ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Heidi:
... ya know, never worked with before. That was their version of- of Chardonnay, they didn't have, that was their only white. And Zinfandel, and it was also during the- the, ah, white-zin boom, so we ...

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
... jumped on that band wagon and made one of the better whites-zins of the time. A little bit more serious wines that was one of the, one of the top few, I'd say. So, it was quite, quite tasty. Again, back to using the balance stuff that I'd used, or learned in Germany, on that ...

Doug:
Were you solo, were you solo in the cellar? Did you have anybody helping ya?

Heidi:
I was. For the most part, I was the only person up there. Occasionally, I could get some of the vineyard guys to come in and, ya know, help me with a lot of barrel work and stuff like that. So I could get a couple of guys to come help me once in a while, but a lot of times it was just me up there, um, in the cellar.

Doug:
Washin the tanks, sterilizin the hoses ...

Heidi:
All by myself.

Doug:
... ya know, filt- filtering bo- dah-dah-dah-dah

Heidi:
Yeah.

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
And so I had to be really careful about, ya know, just safety too, because sometimes the Buehlers would be out of town and I'd be the only one in the cellar. And I thought, "Man, if something happens to me, it could be (laughs) ...

Doug:
Slip and fall.

Heidi:
... "days before someone finds me." So yeah, it was, ah, that was before cell phones and all of that.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative) 

Heidi:
And, yeah, kinda solo little job up there.

Doug:
Geez.

Heidi:
I know.

Doug:
Well, I remember, ah, cause at that point, um, I don't think you were married to Bo yet.

Heidi:
No. That happened in 1985.

Doug:
No.

Doug:
But, Wine Tech was, this ...

Heidi:
Yes.

Doug:
... and I've mentioned that before on this, on this show. It was, ah, where we all got together once a month in Calistoga, oh, and ate, ah, it was a big hanging beef ...

Heidi:
Hanging beef.

Doug:
... hanging beef that was the big joke. And, there, it was actually a serious group cause we'd have ...

Heidi:
It's still going.

Doug:
I know, I'm- I'm out of it totally.

Heidi:
You should come. I still go.

Doug:
You still go?

Heidi:
And it's still a blast. Yes. Love Wine Tech. It's so much fun.

Doug:
Well, Elias said he went a couple months ago. He said, "Doug, I don't know anybody." 

Doug:
I said, "Well, I know.

Heidi:
I know they're all really young like we were (laugh).

Doug:
But, ah, I remember seeing you there and, also, I'll never forget Cathy Corison. 

Heidi:
Of course.

Doug:
Cause I ran into her, at, I'd been, I'd been at a ??? For about five or six months and, it was just, I was deer in the headlights. And she came up to me, she couldn't have been sweeter. She goes, "How's it goin?" Ya know, cause she knew I was ...

Heidi:
Struggling.

Doug:
... my first, first job and the whole thing.

Heidi:
Yeah.

Doug:
I said, "Ah, Cathy, I think I'm okay, but, boy, I don't know ..."

Doug:
And she, I'll never forget this. She said- she looked me in the eye and she said, "Just get through the first year."

Heidi:
Brilliant.

Doug:
"Just get through the first year ...

Heidi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Doug:
... and you got it made."

Heidi:
Yep, that's true.

Doug:
Which meant, because, in our, in this business ...

Heidi:
Stick with it.

Doug:
... it's cyclical and, ya know, crush and bottling, and barrel work, it all kinda happens the same. And it was, ya know, it did, really at the time. I really needed the pep talk. And that's when I needed it, she got me there.

Heidi:
That's wonderful and it's all you needed. Yeah, just one foot in front of the other.

Heidi:
She was working at Chappellet at that time.

Doug:
That's right. She's one at Chappellet.

Heidi:
Which is right across the lake from Buehler Vineyards so we use to joke, "How's things on your side of the lake?"

Doug:
(Laughs)

Heidi:
"Things are good on my side." So we would kinda keep an eye on each other from a distance.

Doug:
That's great.

Doug:
So, Buehler there for how many years?

Heidi:
About six.

Doug:
Six years.

Heidi:
Yeah. Five and a half, six years. Yep.

Doug:
Good for you.

Heidi:
It was good.

Doug:
And, the mean, and at some point you met Mr. Bo.

Heidi:
Yeah, during that same time.

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
So, met Bo actually in '81. Ah, we had both just been traveling. I had just come back from Australia. He'd just been traveling around in Europe, also taking a break from the winery. And, yeah, we started- we started dating and having a lot of fun together. Yeah, we eventually married in '85 and had a couple of kids during my time at Buehler. I had, ya know, two kids, boom, boom, so. It was a great job for me because it was a smaller winery and I could, John would allow me to work a few, ya know, sometimes four days a week. I could just, we did it by the hours. I forget what our arrangement was, but essentially I would get two months off, work ten months, but it was not in a row, so I could take a day here and there. As long as I got the work done, I could have a more flexible schedule.

Heidi:
And, also, allowed me to bring, like, when I had Remi, I could bring her to work with me when she was a baby.

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
And just kept her in my lab and office so I could, ya know, nurse and-

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
And, ya know, take care of her a bit until she got more mobile. Then we had to do the daycare thing. And once added baby number two, all bets were off. So that was ...

Doug:
Ah, Heidi. Cause ...

Heidi:
... '88, like, okay I've gotta ...

Doug:
And how far, how far apart are the kids? They're two years?

Heidi:
They're almost two years apart, yeah.

Doug:
That's still close.

Heidi:
Yeah. So still wanted to make wine, but I needed to do it on a much more part-time basis so I left Buehler and I started looking at the couple of consultants of the day and say, "Would that work for me?" So there were, that was sort of a just fledgling part of the business getting going as the idea of working part-time for multiple wineries. And ...

Doug:
Yeah, there weren't many people doing it.

Heidi:
No. So ...

Doug:
Tony Soter was doing it ...

Heidi:
Tony Soter.

Doug:
... cause Tony helped me.

Heidi:
Yep.

Doug:
Um, I can't think of who else, at the time.

Heidi:
There was, ah, Chuck Ortman.

Doug:
Chuck Ortman.

Heidi:
And I talked with him about it and he was very, very helpful to me.

Doug:
Yeah, nice guy.

Heidi:
Such a nice guy and he was really kinda paving the way for that. I actually had met him when I was at Bouchaine because he brought in custom crush clients. And that's the first place I saw, "Hmm, this is a thing you could actually do that."

Doug:
You could actually do this.

Heidi:
Yeah, so I saw that and it planted that seed. And the third one was Joe Cafaro. Um, so he ...

Doug:
Joe, right, Joe was ...

Heidi:
Joe was also doing some consulting.

Doug:
He was consulting.

Heidi:
So, I called Joe, also, and wanted to ask him about it. How does it work? What's going on? And he's the one who introduced me to Gustav Dalla Valle.

Doug:
Joe did?

Heidi:
Yeah, he said, "I actually,"

Heidi:
I said, "If you have any overflow work or whatever."

Heidi:
He said, "Yeah, I actually do have a client that I- I never have time to go up there. It might be a match for you, let me introduce you."

Heidi:
I'm so appreciative of that one lead, because, man, that just helped really launch me into that part of the world, ya know. That ...

Doug:
I didn't know that was Joe.

Heidi:
... Joe did that, yeah. So Gustav was just getting going with Dalla Valle. I think he- they started the winery '86, so, '86 and '87 were in barrels when I joined them as their Winemaker in 1988.

Doug:
So that, and- and those of you don't know Dalla Valle is up on eastern hills of the Napa Valley, right opposite Oakville ...

Heidi:
That's right.

Doug:
... so it's right by where Oakville crossroad hits the trail and you go straight up.

Heidi:
That's it.

Doug:
It's on top of the world and it's beautiful. There's some great vineyards up there. Dalla Valle, the old Showket Vineyard, we use to buy grapes from them, ah-

Heidi:
So did I.

Doug:
Yeah. Phelps', Phelps' Backus- Bacchus Vineyard is up, below that.

Heidi:
Yep. It's just below that, yep. Yep.

Doug:
And, ah, it actually rolls down the hill ...

Heidi:
Exactly.

Doug:
... that red soil rolls across the trail and that's ...

Heidi:
That red soil was amazing.

Doug:
And there's- there's a place ...

Heidi:
Excuse me.

Doug:
... a place called Screaming Eagle. So all this ...

Heidi:
Yeah, across the street.

Doug:
So all this was starting in 1988. Holy cats.

Doug:
Ya know, Again, the pieces, Heidi, the pieces are really fallin into the puzzle.

Heidi:
You see what's happening here.

Doug:
So, you work with Gustav, who was a neat guy. What a larger-than-life guy he was.

Heidi:
Oh, my gosh. Probably still one of my favorite jobs ever, was working with Gustav. It was just such a delight to help him create his dream, is basically how I look at that job. And the stories he had, what a bigger-than-life, as you said, person and the different chapters of his life were phenomenal. So, I- I just thoroughly enjoyed that whole experience working with Gustav and helping create those wines. I think I was there eight years. Yeah.

Doug:
So you work with Gustav, Dalla Valle, um ... how'd you meet Jean Phillips?

Heidi:
So, Jean was a real estate agent with Ren, and-

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
... she was kind of playing home wine with her at the time boyfriend, a guy named, uh, Tony. They were trying to kind of make wine. She had a little tiny stone cellar down at her ranch. She had 60 acres of grapes, was multi-selling fruit to all kinds of people around the Valley-

Doug:
It was a big ranch, yeah. 

Heidi:
It was a big ranch, yeah, and she was just playing with a few tons in the cellar, and really needed some help there. And Gustav, you know, told me one day, 'cause they were really good friends; Jeannie and Gustav were big buddies. He kind of gave me the little nudge in the ribs, you know, with his elbows, saying, "Why don't you go down there, see if you can help Jeannie out?" 

Doug:
(laughs) 

Heidi:
So we started off with a super casual, like hourly, you know, consulting wine making arrangement.

Doug:
Right. 

Heidi:
Uh, and the first year, right out of the shoot, it just exploded. This brand was really unheard of; nobody ... the wine didn't exist before, and the very first year, with just a little fine tuning-

Doug:
That was what vintage? That was-

Heidi:
So '92.

Doug:
'92.

Heidi:
'92 was the very first year. Yeah. And it was only 175 cases that we made.

Doug:
And it blew up. 

Heidi:
It just took off. And it didn't take off immediately because of writers, it took off on a more grass roots locals level where it started winning tastings and more of a word of mouth ground-

Doug:
It was a yeah-

Heidi:
Groundswell. 

Doug:
Yeah, there was a buzz. 

Heidi:
There was a buzz. 

Doug:
There was an underground buzz, I remember that. 

Heidi:
Very much so. Yeah. 

Doug:
And the label was kind of cool and different, really ... you know. 

Heidi:
Yeah, it was a wood block, and-

Doug:
Stark and yeah. 

Heidi:
Really small, same label that they still use.

Doug:
Very cool. 

Heidi:
Yeah, so none of us really saw that coming, although I do remember working on both of the '92 blends ... By both, I mean Dalla Valle and, uh, and Screaming Eagle at the same time, and I remember thinking, "I can't decide which one I like more; they're both delicious." They were so, so good. Like, the Dalla Valle Maya that we had started in '88, and the regular Cab were both made in '92. And Jean's wine was just neck and neck with Maya that year. 

Doug:
Interesting.

Heidi:
And sure enough, they both got 100 points from Parker. He loved them both also. So that brand got launched, you know, pretty quickly. I think it was Tor Kenward that actually got the wine to Robert Parker, which was a great connection as well, for him to just bring it to his attention. I didn't taste it with him originally. 

Doug:
Yeah. 

Heidi:
But I think Tor did, and ... yeah. And then what happened after that was, now people are watching. Now, you've gotta do it again. 

Doug:
(laughs)

Heidi:
You know what that's like, right? You have one success, it could be a fluke. Now you've got ... you're up to bat again, and you've got to hit it out of the park again. 

Doug:
And you did.

Heidi:
And again. Thank you. 

Doug:
You did. You killed it.

Heidi:
I tried. I knocked myself out doing it, yeah. 

Doug:
You killed it. You know, you make delicious wines. 

Heidi:
Thanks, Doug. 

Doug:
Wow.

Heidi:
Yeah.

Doug:
Okay, so, well, I wan- I wanted to ask you about consulting verses being at a wine- well, so, so you started doing this and then you in time and since then you've consulted and had many clients, but you did have six years at Buehler ...

Heidi:
I did.

Doug:
... being, having a place of your own,

Heidi:
Yep.

Doug:
You're the winemaker.

Heidi:
Yep.

Doug:
So as you're going through this transition and, ya know, because of needing more time with your kids ...

Heidi:
Exactly.

Doug:
... which is really important, this thing happened.

Heidi:
Yes.

Doug:
Was there any regrets? I mean, you're- you- now you're working with four, three or four or five different clients, you don't have your one spot, was that more difficult, more fun, different challenges, what was that like?

Heidi:
Yeah. So, it does become a little bit more of a juggling act when you're making wine for more than one ...

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
... client, but the flexibility was so worth it. And I, kind of, actually, in a lot of ways thrived on the challenge of doing that and just figuring out what's the right balance of how many clients can I take on that I can do really well. I don't wanna take a ton of them, if I'm not gonna do a good job for anybody ...

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
... I need to do what's the right amount I can make great wine for everybody. And, so, yeah, at first, I did sort of start off small, with just a couple of clients; Dalla Valle, who was one of my first clients, ah, let's see, who else. Well, Screaming Eagle came along in '92, Gustav had bought prop- his property from Jean Phillips, who was a real estate agent at that time, she and Ren Harris were real estate partners, so Ren hired me to be his winemaker in 1991 ...

Doug:
At Paradigm.

Heidi:
At Paradigm. And then ...

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
... the next year, Jean hired me to be her winemaker in '92. So here's my early days three clients that I'm winemaker for all three of those. So the other thing that's funny about that is nobody knew how to categorize that sort of work so they would just call you a consultant. But really, I've come to change it into being, really, an independent winemaker, because you're still their winemaker, but you are not there full time so you can have multiple brands, if they're small and be winemaker at all these different places, um, because you're not really consulting to anybody, you're just their winemaker.

Heidi:
On the other hand, consulting work is where, and I do some of those, where you kinda work for a winery that already has a winemaker and maybe you come two or three times a year, two or three times a year as an outside pallet just to fix stuff, or if they have anything they, ya know, need help with or whatever. Then they can either take the information or not, and that's really consulting. So, you don't- they don't get name use, their winemaker should get full credit for the wine ...

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
... but you can troubleshoot as a silent, outside consultant. So my day-to-day clients, I'm their winemaker, but I have, now currently, I have eight of them that I'm their winemaker. So, it's really more of an independent winemaker than a consulting role.

Doug:
But, you, so you, so, some of your role is independent winemaker ...

Heidi:
Yes.

Doug:
... and some of your role's consultant ...

Heidi:
Are consulting. Yes.

Doug:
... where, where you're basically a silent consultant, if you will.

Heidi:
Exactly. Exactly. And- and, yeah, and I've had a number of those over the years which I don't really, um, talk about too much, and yet, they, ya know, and you never go there during crush cause everybody's making wine. I'm making wine for all my clients.

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
They're making wine, but after the fact, ya know, maybe then we need to come through, taste what we made, see what we can do, ya know, improve things, or in the spring, maybe they need help with their blends ...

Doug:
Sure.

Heidi:
... or whatever, then, that's when they see you only a couple times a year.

Doug:
Yeah, ya know, it's good to have more pallets in the- in the lab.

Heidi:
It is.

Doug:
It is.

Heidi:
And I think the- the clients that I've done that type of work for have been just so appreciative of that because, I just have different experience than, you know, you just bring a different, um, level of experience to the ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Heidi:
... to the party when you come. I've seen a lot of different things since I work for so many different places, that I think my learning curve has gone up dramatically, if I've, you know, working for multiple places at the same time.

Doug:
Well, you've got- you've got that exposure to so many different grapes ...

Heidi:
That's right.

Doug:
... and so many different wines from all over the place.

Heidi:
Exactly.

Doug:
I mean, here at Shafer, you know, you talk about house pallet or just- I mean, we got the same grapes every year, bomp. You know, it's fine.

Heidi:
Yeah.

Doug:
But, but, take me out and put me in your role, it'd- it, I'd have a, it's be a challenge ...

Heidi:
It's a- It's a different world.

Doug:
... cause I don't have that experience.

Heidi:
Yeah. And you're really good at your one place.

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
And- and like Bo, he's really good at Montelena ...

Doug:
Montelena.

Heidi:
... that's what he does. And I was, ya know, figuring out at Buehler, one place. But even when I was there, I always felt like I could do more than just one winery. I kinda knew it even at Buehler, I just thought, "I can do more and I should." For some reason, I'm just compelled to do it.

Doug:
So if, so if Beau and I wanted to jump on board and, be like, your assistants, ya know ...

Heidi:
(laughs)

Doug:
... and help you taste, it probably wouldn't work out. (Laughs)

Heidi:
Yeah, no, you- you guys would be great. At least we could go skiing together.

Doug:
We could go skiing. And now that I've got new knees I can ski again.

Heidi:
Excellent.

Doug:
Yeah. Um, well, listen. I did some research and I'm not sure if these are, ya know, the independent consulting, you don't have to comment. But people need to know what wines and how many beautiful wines you've touched. We've got Screaming Eagle, Dalla Valle, Jones Family, Showket, Grace, Paradigm, Revana, Amuse Bouche, Barber, Vineyard 29, Lamborn Family, Fantesca, Kenzo Estate, and it goes on and on. So ...

Heidi:
Yeah, those are all ones where I'm their winemaker or have been.

Doug:
You've- ya know, you have made a mark.

Heidi:
Thank you.

Doug:
So, but I've gotta talk to you about Jean Phillips and Screaming Eagle because at the Napa Valley Wine Auction in 2000, a single bottle of the wine you made for Jean and Screaming Eagle, a six liter bottle, '92 vintage went for $500,000.

Heidi:
Yes, it did.

Doug:
How'd that make you feel?

Heidi:
It was pretty ...

Doug:
(Laughs)

Heidi:
... spectacular. I know. It was, ah, were you there that day? Were you at the auction?

Doug:
Yeah, I- I've been- I've been to em all baby. (laughs)

Heidi:
Yeah, I figured. I figured. Do you remember ...

Doug:
It was nuts.

Heidi:
... the energy in the tent? 

Doug:
It was crazy.

Heidi:
It just, practically blew the tent up. It just exploded. The energy in the tent was amazing that day.

Doug:
No one could believe it. It was like-

Heidi:
No. It- nobody had ever seen that number before for a single bottle of wine. And I think it's still actually a record price ...

Doug:
It is.

Heidi:
... for a single bottle paid at auction. Granted it was for charity, which is fabulous. But it was a rare bottle of only two of those, ah, six liters were made. It was also the first vintage from Screaming Eagle, which was one of my hundred pointers that originally got 99, but he came back and said he, ya know, changed it to the three digit score. 

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
Which we know what that means. So that was pretty cool.

Heidi:
So it was a highly touted wine, but it was a charitable event. And it was during the dotcom boom, too, so there was money flying around. Ah, the guy that bought it is a guy named Chase Bailey.

Doug:
Oh, I remember Chase.

Heidi:
Do you remember him?

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
Yeah, he use to come to the auctions regularly.

Doug:
Nice guy.

Heidi:
Yeah. He actually, finally, he drank the bottle at his 60th birthday party in Paris. Yeah, a while ago. So that was a lot of fun.

Doug:
Um, I remember that day. It was crazy.

Doug:
So, here's, so all these consulting thing and working for different people, what's the secret to a successful consultation, independent winemaker, for you, with all these different clients? What- what's- what the key- what makes it work? Cause I'm sure there's some that don't work. But what's the one- what makes it work?

Heidi:
Yeah. So, I look at it as I'm just, ah, I- my job is to go in and make, like, like your job when you're making wine here to make the best wine you can ...

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
... from this particular property. It's really no different. I just do it for multiple places. So, they're all small. Ah, and I go in and it's different vineyard set up and it's a different winery and I have a different crew there. But my job is to help them create their maximum potential from any given block of grapes.
So at Paradigm, Ren told me he always loved the silky, beautiful wines from B.V. in those days, that was kinda his benchmark. He gave me a little bit of parameters; which also happens to suit where the vineyards are there and the little winery that we have there. So I can do close to that there, it's the best use of those grapes. They're valley floor, um, and that's the type of wine that it makes. So that worked out really well. Sometimes when I get hired to be their winemaker, they don't really give me any parameters. They just say, "Do what ya do."

Doug:
Do whatchado. (laughs)

Heidi:
Just- just do it.

Heidi:
Yeah, and if it's hillside grapes, as you know, you guys have some beautiful hillside grapes here. There's more depth, there's more concentration.

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
It's gonna lead my mind making decisions a little different direction, but I'm still gonna, ya know, try to knock it out of the park every time. So, I- I think for winemakers that work for one medium sized winery, it's-, or a bigger winery, for me it's if I added it all together, it's about like doing that working for that, but I just have to drive different places to go taste all my different lots. They're owned by different people so it's a little more complicated that way, but it's basically the same job, I just have to drive around a lot more.

Doug:
I'm with ya know.

Heidi:
Yeah.

Doug:
So, I've got- I've got one question. I don't think it's a unfair question, cause I'm really curious. You've got- cause- the one business, ya know, the people that own wineries, and own wineries, they're successful, they're use to being successful, they're winners, they've got money ...

Heidi:
Yes.

Doug:
... um, they can afford to do it, they can afford to get great grapes and great wine making facilities, hire you and good teams; ya know, and, but then there's judgements out there, with, ya know, unfortunately or fortunately the critics, and the scores, and there's a grading scale.

Heidi:
Yeah.

Doug:
What happens if one client gets, ya know, the 98 in the hundreds score and another one gets the 89 or the 92? Do they come to you and say, this sounds terrible, but, it's like, "Hey, Heidi, aren't you working hard enough for me? I only got a 92." I mean, is that- is that-

Heidi:
Doesn't happen too often, but it did happen a couple of times with Ren and Jean. In particular because, Jean, right out of the park with Screaming Eagle, ya know, 99+ was the original score, and then, ya know, he recinded and gave it the hundred. And Ren, I think he was getting definitely in the 90's, ya know, nice scores as well, but not- but not that- as high as that, yet they're completely different properties and there's no way I can make the wines taste the exact same. Yet he would kind of, ya know, elbow me a little bit and say, "Hey, you know, it's my turn." 

Doug:
(Laughs)

Heidi:
(Laughs) And so we would kinda laugh about that and everything, but, most, ya know, I- I can't control what writers write or what score they're gonna give or anything. So, the only way I can approach it is to make the best wine I can, and then let the chips fall where they may ...

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
... basically. And so, on any given day, I think, any of the wines I make could get that sort of a score, it just depends on the company they're in in a tasting. Um, I've actually, gosh, maybe, probably been about ten years, but to my own tasting group of which there's a lot of local winemakers, you would know most of everybody in there.

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
Um, I decided it was my turn to host, so I decided, and it's always blind. You can either buy the wines or whatever. I went down in my cellar and I dug out, basically all the wines I made my whole line up of my- my clients, right. And I didn't say anything. Same vintage, here they all are.

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
And, I put in, Screaming Eagle was in there. And Dalla Valle was in there. Jones, Showket, all my line up, at that time, was in there. And Screaming Eagle didn't win, actually; it came in like ...

Doug:
Sure.

Heidi:
... third or fourth ...

Doug:
Sure

Heidi:
... out of six or eight wines. So, it just showed me that, on any given day, depending on what you had for breakfast or whatever. Some of these- Jones was delicious; I mean, they're- they're high quality wines, it's just one person's opinion.

Doug:
Of course, it is.

Heidi:
You know what I mean?

Doug:
That's what's so- it's subjective. It's like art.

Heidi:
Yeah.

Doug:
Ya know, every year eight or ten of the top, top cap, including hillside, we do it blind. You know something? There are ten absolutely gorgeous wines.

Heidi:
That's right.

Doug:
And there's subtle differences and its great. 

Heidi:
Yeah.

Doug:
And we don't- we don't even try to rank them, it's just kinda fun ...

Heidi:
Just fun to see what's out there.

Doug:
... just to do it. They're all gorgeous.

Heidi:
That's right.

Doug:
Which is neat.

Heidi:
By the way, we tasted, ah, some 2015's yesterday up at Chateau Montelena. There were 13 wines; you're Shafer 1.51.

Doug:
Oh, Heidi, Thank you.

Heidi:
Yeah. Yeah.

Doug:
That's good to hear.

Heidi:
It was delicious.

Doug:
That's great. 

Heidi:
Yeah.

Doug:
Nah, the 15's really pretty.

Heidi:
It was really pretty.

Doug:
We're excited about it.

Heidi:
Nice wine and it was in good company too.

Doug:
Well, thank you.

Heidi:
Yeah.

Doug:
I'll tell ...

Heidi:
Thought you should know that.

Doug:
I'll tell the winemaker. He'll be happy.

Heidi:
Yeah, you should tell him.

Doug:
Um, so, movin on from consulting in the '90s you started your own label.

Heidi:
I did.

Doug:
La Sirena. Which, did I pronounce that right?

Heidi:
You did.

Doug:
Which means mermaid.

Heidi:
It means mermaid, both Italian and Spanish. La Sirena.

Doug:
There ya go.

Heidi:
Yep.

Doug:
Cause you're a scuba diver.

Heidi:
I am.

Doug:
You love the sea. Now tell me about La Sirena. Cause you've got lots of different varietals. You've got the Cab Pirate TreasuRed, La Barrettage ...

Heidi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Doug:
... Grenache, Art Bus, Moscato Azul.

Heidi:
Yes, a bunch of different things. So La Sarina started in '94.

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
And it actually started a little bit on a fluke. So, ah, some of the- one of the Cake Bread Family came to me as, to hire me as ah, like a wine making consultant to make wine for them. It was actually Dennis and Sarah wanted to start their own label. And, so I started- we started with Sangiovese in 1994. You guys also made ...

Doug:
We, we had- we had a run.

Heidi:
Yes. It was during the little, brief but delightful Sangiovese boom. So everybody thought that would be the ne- next big thing.

Doug:
That, right.

Heidi:
And it was fun to make for a while, for sure. So, the Cake Breads hired me to make Sangiovese for them and we got grapes from out in Pope Valley. And, it needs a lot of heat to make that variety, as you know.

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
So, we made the wine and their family, I think, kinda gave em an ultimatum about starting their own label. And either with us or you're out. So they stayed with the family which was good for them. And they were gonna bulk out this beautiful, little Sangiovese that I had made. So, that's where I thought, "Here's my chance to start my label. I'm gonna see if I can buy it."

Heidi:
So I went off to, ah, one of the banks, and took out a loan and bought the wine from them and started my label. And, it just happened within a month, I needed to come up with a label design and name.

Doug:
The whole thing.

Heidi:
I needed to find a little bit of blending wine for it, which- which I did. I found some Mondeuse, actually. I put in a few percent of that.

Doug:
Mondeuse.

Heidi:
Yeah, from Vince Toffeneli and Lee up in Calistoga.

Doug:
Wow.

Heidi:
Yep. That was my first blend. It was only a couple hundred cases. So, I couldn't get into too much trouble, I figured.

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
But, at least get the brand going. Ah, and then, it just, it built from there. The next year, the '95, I made, um, similar. '96, I realized, "Wow, I- I started this brand. What do you really want to make now that you have time to think about it?"

Doug:
Right. Right.

Heidi:
And really, my first love is making Cab. So updated my label a little bit more; um, upscale, still the same mermaid theme, but changed the graphics into a very more upscale look from my first whimsical label.

Doug:
I remember the first one. It was cute.

Heidi:
It was very colorful.

Doug:
Yeah, I liked it.

Heidi:
It was, yeah, but- but, ya know, to make a high-end cab and beautiful, serious cab I- I needed to, ya know, just make that a little more sleek, which we did. And it's still the same packaging that I use now on that wine. So, yeah, when I really had time to think about what do you wanna make. It's Cab.

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
I love making ,as you do as well.

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
So, yeah. I had the two wines, at first. Phased out the Sangiovese after the '99 vintage. The vineyard was sold anyway so I couldn't keep getting the grapes so I replaced that with Syrah as my second red variety, at the time. Which I love making Syrah, love drinking it.

Doug:
We do- we do too.

Heidi:
Love it. Love it. Love it.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Heidi:
And then different, ah, products have eval- evolved as I, sort of, built up the brand a little bit. Mostly with just things I personally love to drink and like to make. Ah, the dry Muscat the Moscato Azul ...

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
... came in 2003. So we've already been making that, uh.

Doug:
Where'd ya get the grapes?

Heidi:
That came from my neighbor up in Calistoga, the Solary Family.

Doug:
Moscato up in Calistoga?

Heidi:
Yeah.

Doug:
Hot weather? Grows okay?

Heidi:
Yeah it does great up there, actually at Muscat Canelli.

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
It was the same vineyard that Robert Pecota was using for his Moscato d'Andrea all those years.

Doug:
I remember that.

Heidi:
Yeah. So I was able to buy a few tons from Bruno the first year in '03 just to learn how to make the dry style.

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
And then, we've just expanded from there. And now I- now I'm getting the, um, grapes from up in Lake County because Bruno doesn't have the Muscat anymore.

Doug:
Very cool.

Heidi:
Yeah.

Doug:
And-

Heidi:
Sometimes I make Malbec, Grenache, and then some fun blends like the Pirate TreasurRed is a blast.

Doug:
Yeah, what's a Pirate TreasuRed?

Heidi:
So that's a blend of seven. It's a-

Doug:
Seven! (laughs)

Heidi:
Yeah. So in 2007 different growers came to me, "Do you wanna buy some Garnacha?" 

Heidi:
"Yes, I do."

Heidi:
"Do you wanna buy some Petit Verdot?"

Heidi:
"Sure, I'll- I'll try some."

Heidi:
And I was, mostly I was thinking about the Garnacha as a way to differentiate the three different Syrahs I had at the time, but my blends did go like I thought. The- the ...

Doug:
Got it.

Heidi:
The Syrahs were better as- as they stood just as 100% varietals. So I had all these components that I had- had bought and made separately, but I didn't have a product for it. So I thought, "Well, let's just see what I can make." And I got going in the lab. Created this beautiful, big, delicious red wine and it turned out to be a blend of seven varieties. And I was, you know how you get in the lab after you've been blending all day, a little punchy ...

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
... a little tired. Like, okay. Well it's like treasure of the seven seas, maybe I could name it Pirate. I've already got the mermaid theme going. And no one ...

Doug:
Makes sense.

Heidi:
Yeah, I thought so too. No one had trademarked Pirate for wine so ...

Doug:
Oh, good job.

Heidi:
... I was able to get that Pirate TreasuRed as our trademark.

Doug:
Trademark.

Heidi:
Yep. So, in it- and the TreasuRed of the Seven Seas works well for blending as we know all of those different layered, um, wines add beautiful depth and complexity to wine and each have their own little song to sing when you put them in there. And, it's, ah, it's been a lot of fun to have that- to have that blend. People are kinda blown away by it.

Doug:
I've gotta remember that.

Heidi:
Yeah.

Doug:
"Each component has its own song to sing." Thank you, that's a good one for me.

Heidi:
Awesome.

Doug:
Ah, you are a blender, man you can make wine. I tell yeah.

Heidi:
(laugh) Thanks.

Doug:
And then fun fact. You fly a helicopter.

Heidi:
Yes I do. (laugh)

Doug:
Tell me. You gotta tell me about that.

Heidi:
Okay.

Doug:
So, you've been doin that for a while.

Heidi:
I have. It's been about ten years, I'd say.

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
Yeah, maybe a little more, actually.

Heidi:
So, okay. It's funny how seeds get planted in your life when you hear about things; like I told you about, we talked about when I saw Chuck Ortman bringing in fruit to Bouchaine and it was the first seed planted of that you could do ...

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
... consulting or independent winemaking for part-time. Well, when I worked for the Buehlers in the early '80s, I use to see a helicopter pass by overhead most days. And, I- "What's the story on that guy? Who's that?" And it was somebody that was commuting to San Francisco by helicopter to work. And I just thought, "Wow. That is- How cool is that." And, my dad was a pilot, I had been in helicopters a few times and I just thought it was the most magic thing ever, ah, because it's so three dimensional ...

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
... that it's sort of like a real life magic carpet, actually.

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
You can just fly around, right?

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
Like what you do in your dreams when you fly. So I just kind of filed that away in the back of my mind. Fast forward thirty years from then, I did it. I flew myself to work. Um-

Doug:
Where'd you take lessons?

Heidi:
So I took lessons over in- in Sonoma County. There's ah, a heli-school over there at the Sonoma County Airport. And, it was a little bit, start-stop for me ...

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
... I started flying in '06 and the original school was down at Golden Gate Helicopters. We had a- a young women pilot would fly the little R-22 trainer up and four of us would take lessons, just trade out, do your half hour, next person get in. Bo was doing it; Dave Ello was doing it; and another guy, I can't remember his name, but anyway. Four of us, so we'd share the cost of moving the helicopter up and do our training. And, ah, then, let's see, then it was crush and so my training time was over because I'm really busy with work, as you know.

Heidi:
So the next year, ah, that school wasn't available. Bo and I were driving down to Concord to fly a few times and I think I only go another five lessons in or something that summer. Then it's crush again, and winter raining, can't fly. Then two years went by and I didn't fly at all. And then I re-picked it up in 99, kinda had that "are you doing or aren't ya?" Conversation with myself. Said, "I really want to do." I'm just hellbent on doing it so I just tried to figure out a way to fly during crush anyway and make progress. So I would be the first appointment in the morning, fly first thing in Santa Rosa now the heli-school had opened, and then go to work after that. So I just, kind- was able to kind of keep going ...

Doug:
Make it happen.

Heidi:
... through the winter. Make it happen, do all the studying on my own, late at night, you know taking the practice tests ...

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
... and everything. It's hard. It is a- It is one of the hardest things I've tried to tackle.

Doug:
I would guess it would- had- would have to be.

Heidi:
Oh, my gosh.

Doug:
But now that you're doing it, do you fly from client to client?

Heidi:
I do.

Doug:
(laughs)

Heidi:
Yes I do.

Doug:
So if you were working here, you'd just come out and land it right on the lawn, here?

Heidi:
I know, I was eyeing your front lawn out there, that looks pretty landable actually.

Doug:
Landable? Okay. (Laughs)

Heidi:
It's good. (Laughs)

Doug:
That's so cool.

Heidi:
Yeah, so I can fly and land at a few of my clients. Also where it gets really good is during crush where I have to go do a lot of vineyard visits. You kno- You and I both, we have to drive around a lot ...

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
... and go check grapes everywhere. And a lot of the vineyards, vineyard properties where I work for different clients are up these very windy mountain roads. And then you go up to one and you gotta drive all back down and then you ....

Doug:
Take a long time.

Heidi:
It does take a long time. And then a few miles away, you drive up another one. So it can take you, you know an hour to go up and down a road where, okay, so it's like a little five minute flight ...

Doug:
Nice.

Heidi:
... to land at the next spot. Yeah, and I don't need any particular landing pad. I can land, ya know, anywhere clear of wires and trees that's pretty flat. Um, and if I have local permission, ah, I can come in and land. So it works out really well. Plus it's really fun.

Doug:
Cool.

Heidi:
Yeah.

Doug:
Way to go.

Heidi:
Thanks.

Doug:
And, ah, I gotta ask about this. You and, you and your husband Bo have a brand, Barrett and Barrett.

Heidi:
We do. Go figure.

Doug:
Well, I, (laughs)

Heidi:
(laughs)

Doug:
So, just Cabernet?

Heidi:
It's just Cabernet.

Doug:
Okay, so here's the $64 question.

Heidi:
Okay.

Doug:
Beau's a good buddy. You're a good buddy. You're both really good winemakers. Who's the winemaker?

Heidi:
So. Okay, This is, This is, yes, we figured this out year one, how this was gonna work because it is possible to have too many cooks in the kitchen, right?

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
And we're both use to being in charge of our own winemaking, and running facilities ....

Doug:
You're both really strong willed people, come on.

Heidi:
Yeah, it's true. It's true.

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
So we, the first year was, ah, 2008, and how it came about is also kind of interesting because we had never had this like life- lifetime dream of you know, making wine together.

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
Never. We're both ...

Doug:
Both busy.

Heidi:
... perfectly happy ...

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
... working on our things and- and working, ah, kinda parallel careers, building our careers at the same time, which has been good, but- but, you know, in charge of our own- our own wines. And, in 2008 Bo's Dad was going to sell Chateau Montelena.

Doug:
That's right.

Heidi:
And, fortunately, it fell through.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Heidi:
But, he was gonna need a job, basically. And we thought, since that can't stay in the family, let's just start our own thing that can stay in the family that we could then pass on to round two of Barrett & Barrett, our two daughters, which is Remi and Chelsea.

Doug:
Right.

Heidi:
So, that's how the idea came. We bought a separate vineyard parcel that we thought would be great for the wines, which is over on Old Toll Road in Calistoga. And we just started with, ya know, a couple hundred cases. Meanwhile, the sale of Montelena fell through fortunately. And Bo's still, ya know, gotta secure job up there and all that and it's running than ever, but we started this little brand. So, okay, who's gonna do which job.

Doug:
(Laughs)

Heidi:
(Laughs) And we found out pretty quickly ...

Doug:
We call that- We call that pillow talk.

Heidi:
Yes. Pillow talk and try to stay married. Ah, is, ya know, he does, definitely more of the farming ...

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
... side of it. I do more of the day-to-day win making. And where we really overlap, and it's fun, is when we put the blend together.

Doug:
Oh, I bet it is.

Heidi:
All of our experience of each of these, ya know, many decades careers come together. And- and we're largely in agreement, although we have, we bring different things to the table.

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
I think, ya know, Bo likes a little, ah, more tannin than I do. I like very silky, ya know, luxurious, mouth-feel; he will leave it a little more raw than I like and I have to allow for that when we're working on a wine together. So, I get that. And it's, ah, it's fun. We sort- kind of a fusion of both of our styles, which is a lot of fun.

Doug:
Compromise, a secret to a ...

Heidi:
Yes.

Doug:
...successful marriage ...

Heidi:
That's right.

Doug:
... and a successful married wine brand.

Heidi:
That's right.

Doug:
Have you ever made wine with your dad?

Heidi:
Well, a little bit at the Monterey vineyard ...

Doug:
Okay.

Heidi:
... but not really directly. I mean ...

Doug:
Yeah.

Heidi:
... I was just in the crew and in the cellar, but it was his wines that I helped work on. But not really, no.

Doug:
I was just curious about that.

Heidi:
Not directly. Mm-mm (negative).

Doug:
But, boy, you've- you've consulted with each other a lot. I know that.

Heidi:
A lot. I've learned a ton from him. Yeah.

Doug:
That's great.

Heidi:
Yep. Yep.

Doug:
Heidi, Thanks so much for being here. This has ...

Heidi:
Thank you.

Doug:
... man, all the pieces of the puzzle. They all ...

Heidi:
A lot of parts. Yeah.

Doug:
They all came together. So thanks for joining us.

Heidi:
Thank you so much, Doug.

Doug:
Great to see ya.

Heidi:
You too.

Full Transcript

Doug Shafer:
Welcome everybody back to the Taste. This is Doug Shafer, um, great to be here again today. I've got a long time friend with us, um, wonderful guy named Pete Seghesio who has seen it all; grown grapes, made wine. He's got a whole new gig that we're gonna talk about later but Pete, welcome. 

Pete Seghesio:
Thank you Doug, great to be here. 

Doug Shafer:
Um, not sure where to go with you because you know, Shafer's have been in wine country bout' 40 years but I think your family, 120 years? Something like that?

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah Something like that. I've lost count. Families been, been here long time, um, on, you know, two sides to the family the Seghesio side, Edwardo came in 1886. And then my mother's side which is Passalacqua and in, uh, which came over in 1860. So long, long, uh, family heritage here in the state of California. 

Doug Shafer:
So they came from Italy obviously? 

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah, yeah. Both- yeah Passalacqua, both were, uh, Seghesio is, is Pimonte, Passalacqua was uh, just uh, in a little area called San Lorenzo, just south of Genoa. And uh, so both from the North and both came as, came as farmers, uh, Francesco Passalacqua actually was beginning as a farmer but then was a cook in the gold fields. And, uh, ended up taking his earners, his portion of the gold and uh, and bought land in Sonoma County. Uh, like the Seghesio's side. So both families from farming and ultimately from grapes and from wine. 

Doug Shafer:
So he came, he came not, not originally to grow grapes but for the gold rush? 

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah, yeah. On the Passalacqua side, came for the gold rush and it's, it's interesting. It seems like so much of the Italian heritage, they were, they were farmers, they were grocery farmers.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
They were, you know, vegetable farmers. And uh, and, that's how on the Seghesio side at Italian-Swiss Colony it was an agricultural commune. So it was, it was not just grapes and wine making but it was also vegetables. And, the- the history, you know like, like, most of the immigrant families in the- as you went into the winter months you would harvest the family hog. 

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
And so we would always make sausage. We'd make the little Salametti uh, for the winter months. And that was part of our tradition too and that's ultimately was led to us making meat but it's just a- we all started as farmers. We all started as farmers. 

Doug Shafer:
Wow. 
So they start, they ended up in Sonoma. Italian-Swiss Colony and when, when did the Seghesio's start growing their own grapes? 

Pete Seghesio:
Edwardo and Angela started the original Seghesio- they started in 1895.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
And, uh, started the winery in 1902 but, uh, Edwardo Seghesio worked at Italian-Swiss Colony and in those days you got free room and board and you got your- you had a small stipend. But it was safer for you to keep your money with the company than at the bank. And so you had a three year contract period. 

Doug Shafer:
Wow. 

Pete Seghesio:
And at the end of the second three year contract period he was gonna go back home, marry his childhood sweetheart in Italy. And his boss, his boss said “Che cosa fai” What are you gonna do, “Aspetta, aspetta,” wait, wait. I have two beautiful nieces coming over in a couple of months."

Doug Shafer:
[laughter]

Pete Seghesio:
"Marry one my nieces."

Doug Shafer:
No really? 

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah. "Marry one of my nieces and by the way I'll sell you some land at a reasonable price."
And that was, that's how they started the original Seghesio winery. Uh, at the home ranch, just north of Geyserville.

Doug Shafer:
Just north of- that's, God. God, that's a great story. I never knew that one, that's why- I'm glad you're here today. Um, so they're growing grapes, I mean how, how big an operation, it, um, just, it starts small, grew through the years? 

Pete Seghesio:
Seghesio was a, was a um, private winery or, uh, uh, a bulk winery. Meaning we made wine, the family made wine for other wineries.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
And, um, it wasn't a- the, the family never had a taste room til the early 80's. That's so from 1902 up until, uh, 1980 everything was sold by the tank. Uh, in the early days before prohibition and after prohibition a lot of the wine was sold via rail. 

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
So that's why so many of the wineries- the early wineries over on the Sonoma side are always by the railroad tracks. 

Doug Shafer:
Oh the tracks. 

Pete Seghesio:
Because that's, that's how you ship the wine. So we, we shipped wine to region and bottling plants. Chicago, Philly, Seattle. 

Doug Shafer:
So they, they'd, they'd ship it in tankers to like, Chicago, and then someone would bottle it there and what label would, and what label would they putting on? It's not Seghesio. 

Pete Seghesio:
No. Wasn't Seghesio- 

Doug Shafer:
No cause, okay. 

Pete Seghesio:
but it'll be a California Zinfandel or California Red. Uh, but it was known as a, as a- more of a generic California label.  

Doug Shafer:
Wow. 

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah. 

Doug Shafer:
So uh- 

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah in those days, I, I guess it- you know we all look at estate grown wines now and bottling and at the source. 

Doug Shafer:
Right. 

Pete Seghesio:
But in that era it was, it was, you know, the sense was to bottle it at the market. 

Doug Shafer:
Cool. 
Well I was just um, I was just in Europe last week but I, I know my Swiss importer who's been in business. Gosh, you know, hundreds of years, couple three or four generations. And, and, I learned something that I never knew back in the early days with Bordeaux. And most people know this, I didn't. Um, they wouldn't necessarily bottle at the chateau. They would ship the wine in bulk like Martel, my guys in Switzerland, they'd receive bulk, you know, Bordeaux, then they'd bottle it and they would put the first growth label up but it would be- it would say bottled by Martel in Switzerland. So I mean when you look at some of these older Cha- older first growth's, you know, it's kind of- people say "Well where was it bottled? Switzerland, or here or there?" So same idea. 
Um, so what happened when Prohibition hit? 

Pete Seghesio:
We were- the old Italian way was to do a third, a third and a third. So, in, in that time we were still- the family was only a third in grapes.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
Third pears and the third prunes. So we relied on those other two crops to get us through. And we were still making wine, we couldn't sell the wine. After about nine years the wine was starting to turn bad in the tank, there was no more room. 

Doug Shafer:
Oh. 

Pete Seghesio:
And we had another harvest coming that we had to make room for. 

Doug Shafer:
Oh man.

Pete Seghesio:
And so, that's how bad things got. They called up the state inspector and they let 300,000 gallons of red wine go down the creek. 

Doug Shafer:
Oh... 

Pete Seghesio:
So you know. 

Doug Shafer:
You gotta to be kidding me. 

Pete Seghesio:
No. 
So that's, I mean that's- there's uh, there's a book out um, I'm drawing a blank on the gentleman's, on the authors name. But there's a book out that, that talks- that made- that the story was built around when the rivers red- ran red. 

Doug Shafer:
Ran red. 

Pete Seghesio:
And, but it's a true story. You had, there- there would be wineries that would be full, and they would have to do a release to make room. And so word would get out that somebody is going to do a release and people would be lined up in the creek drinking out of the creek. 

Doug Shafer:
[laughter] 

Pete Seghesio:
So, you know, I mean that's, that's not something that we all wanna talk about that much. And it's not- you know, but that's how bad, you know, part of our history as, you know, dealing with Prohibition. How bad it was. 

Doug Shafer:
Prohibition. 

Pete Seghesio:
Was, was you had, you know, people drinking out of creeks or filling up their wine jugs out of the creek because that's what wineries had to- had to do to make room. And this was all accepted, you just gonna let it go down the creek. 

Doug Shafer:
Oh. 

Pete Seghesio:
You know.

Doug Shafer:
And 300,000 gallons to us, us wine makers, divided by 2.4th's. Well that's over a 100,000 cases. 

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah. It's- it's. 

Doug Shafer:
I mean, that's a lot of juice. 

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah, it was- we were, you know, like all of the wineries at the time, we were full. 

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Pete Seghesio:
We were full, and you had to go somewhere with it. 

Doug Shafer:
So during that time, it seems- I was curious, well if they kept the grapes growing. Cause grapes aren't, you know, they last for many, many years but- it wasn't a move to pull out the vines and plant more pears, or almonds or something else.

Pete Seghesio:
They- I, I, I've asked that to my father when he was still alive, and we talked about it. Um, many times, and it's just- Doug, they, they operate- they operated under the belief that it was going to be repealed. They couldn't believe- 

Doug Shafer:
Interesting. 

Pete Seghesio:
They couldn't understand. It was so foreign to them. 

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)  

Pete Seghesio:
That wine, which from a European background, is every day. It's part of your everyday life. 

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
And kids, kids, you know, are encouraged to stop drinking milk at 12 and take a little wine cup with water, you know.

Doug Shafer:
Right. 

Pete Seghesio:
Just so you can begin to taste it. Um, it, it's just- so foreign to them that wine is not going to be legal. And they just kept believing um, that it will be legal. And I-I just, I think they, just never realized that it could go 18 years. 

Doug Shafer:
Wow. 
Oh. Well I'm glad they hung in there. 

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah. 

Doug Shafer:
And Zinfandel was a big part. Zinfandel was the boss grape.

Pete Seghesio:
Zin- That's right. Zinfandel was the boss grape. That was, you know, my father would- those, those words ring in my ear. You know Dad would always say "There's one grape, it's the boss grape. And that's Zinfandel." So.

Doug Shafer:
How- how come? 

Pete Seghesio:
Um, it was, uh, it was always just the, um, uh- it was one that always gave good sugar and it was wet with sellable from the bulk market at that time. 
People weren't as caring or, I don't want to say, uh, sophisticated is not the right word. But there wasn't the, the, aging care, the -

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
I'm sure here you top every ten days -

Doug Shafer:
Right, right.

Pete Seghesio:
And you make sure that there's, the barrels never down. In that era, you had, you were using redwood which would age the wine faster. You probably didn't top as much, wine would spoil or be become slightly oxidized earlier on. 

Doug Shafer:
Right

Pete Seghesio:
So you looked towards varieties that were drinkable earlier, and that was a thing that Zinfandel was, was that it was rounder and it was softer tan and you could drink it fresh. 

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
In six months.

Doug Shafer:
Boom.

Pete Seghesio:
You didn't have to wait for a Cabernet, and I think that was what held back Cabernet early on was the tannic petite sirah, was very tannic.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
You know, Zinfandel was the one that was after, rounder, drinkable, earlier and that's what for the immigrants, that's what they wanted, something that was drinkable every day

Doug Shafer:
Just so -

Pete Seghesio:
And they wanted it fresher and if you waited for the tannin and the cabernet to be softer, by that time the wine would be showing its age too much

Doug Shafer:
Definitely

Pete Seghesio:
Back in that era. 

Doug Shafer:
Yeah makes sense

Pete Seghesio:
So

Doug Shafer:
Makes sense. Good 'ol Zin.

Pete Seghesio:
Yep

Doug Shafer:
I remember making a couple years of that. Um, so, let's get back to you. You grew up, right at the winery? Sonoma?

Pete Seghesio:
I grew up at the home ranch, which was two miles north of Geyserville.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
So, and that was the, what was interesting about that part was that was that was the the land that was left. Because the Germans and the English were most of Geyserville was settled by the Germans and the English, and so the more fertile land is around that area.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
And by, when the Italians came the only land that was left was north of Geyserville which was shallower soils, and but quality was better, so as you know -

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Pete Seghesio:
At your site here, the more shallower soil, the hillside soils are going to give you more concentration, more richness, and that's what we had north of Geyserville was much shallower soil -

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Pete Seghesio:
Lots of gravel, lots of volcanic bedrock and that little area, between Geyserville and Cloverdale was all Italians and they named it Chianti, Barbara, Asti, were the three little Italian villages between the towns of Geyserville and Cloverdale, and then there was another little living, little commune or town called Luca up in the hills.

Doug Shafer:
Huh.

Pete Seghesio:
So the Italians named it after -

Doug Shafer:
After -

Pete Seghesio:
What they, you know, after the parts of Italy where they were from, but you know I think that's one of the reasons why they settled in this area was or in that area because it reminded them of home.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah yeah. Especially in the summer time driving up there.

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Um college was  …

Pete Seghesio:
College was, uh, Fresno State.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
So degree in wine making, and uh, and uh, came back to came back to a antiquated facility with nowhere to go but up, and I was the only Seghesio that was single with no kids, so I got the marketing and sales job. And spent my early 20s traveling the market, building the brand, and uh helping iron out what the family needed to do to be successful, which was, you know you travel, travel and talk to distributors and talk to restaurants and fine wine retailers, you figure out what you need to do. And we figured it out.

Doug Shafer:
So that was in what year were you getting out of college?

Pete Seghesio:
Oh, I think I was, February of ‘87.

Doug Shafer:
Okay, because I'm gonna jump back in time a little bit because uh to talk a little bit about when was the switch from bulk wine to bottled wine and what was the the impetus for that.

Pete Seghesio:
Um. You know, it was really, my dad was pretty stuck in his ways and and really the impetus for that was my cousin Ted and his dad, Ed Seghesio, were the ones from the family that really pushed for our own label. 

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
And that was they started the label in uh I believe the family started the label Seghesio label in ‘81 or ’82.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Pete Seghesio:
So, and I showed up in ‘87. And but that was the, the, they get the credit for beginning it.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Pete Seghesio:
And it’s great that they you know, my father was uh, you know, it's hard for an older Italian to change his ways and but it was the right move. And um, and uh, when I showed up, the changes were just to help the family drive quality, drive quality, drive quality, and we can't do everything.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
You know it was, it was, and it was a slow evolution to get there. And I think the biggest, the biggest thing that helped drive that change. I mean Teddy was, Teddy was has always been committed to quality. 

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
And Teddy's, Teddy's thing and it still rings in my ears. Just wants to make a small amount of great wine. 

Doug Shafer:
[Laughs]

Pete Seghesio:
And, you know, with Seghesio, you had a lot of mouths to feed.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
So you need, a certain amount of production, but, one of the ironic things for us, was an IRS audit. That that uh would've been very devastating to the family, and and we fought with the IRS for, I need to look up what the records were, but -

Doug Shafer:
Hmm.

Pete Seghesio:
It was like a three year ongoing battle. But basically what it made us do was it it forced to really look at how we were operating, we didn't have a budget in those days, you know we we assumed there was going to be a significant loss from the IRS.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
So how we do we recover from that, how do we grow through that. And so it was the first time we did any financial planning and really formalized what the growth strategy was, and that was really what moved us to go really just Zinfandel and Italian varietals.

Doug Shafer:
Just to focus.

Pete Seghesio:
We dropped Chardonnay, we dropped Cabernet, we dropped the red and white table wine. Focused in on what was primarily state, which was Zinfandel and then the Tan rivals. So that's we didn't figure it out until then

Doug Shafer:
But it was

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah

Doug Shafer:
It was it was a good move, because it got your niche and that's what you guys are known for

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah

Doug Shafer:
I mean

Pete Seghesio:
No it saved the family business, it was an amazing move, and that would've been, I think it was 93 or 94 that we -

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Pete Seghesio:
We made those changes, and then by 2000, you know it's it's it's a good, as you know, it's it's it's a minimum 10 years to build anything

Doug Shafer:
Right, right.

Pete Seghesio:
Build anything. And it was about 10 years.

Doug Shafer:
Um. Flashing back to the bulk wine days. Um because when we got here in ‘73, we had, god, what did we have, 30 acres of grapes and it was Barbara Petite Saroche and Chenin Blanc, so dad, before, he didn't make wine until ‘78. So it was five or six years when he was a farmer, learning, he was a grower. And we sold our wines, our grapes, to the co-op, the Napa valley co-op, because at the time there were only 20 wineries in Napa valley, so most the grapes were owned by independent growers. Just like in Sonoma and Seghesios and we would sell to the co-op and it's it's a little bit of a simplification, but I think they kind of made, a tank of red and a tank of white, and they sold it to Gallo. 
Because Gallo down in Modesto wanted North Coast fruit. So North Coast bulk wine, basically. 
So. Um. We were kind of kind of got a glimpse of that, and then a lot of us started making our own wines just like you guys did. 

Pete Seghesio:
Well, and and that's where you know, the Gallo Hardy Burgundy, back in the ‘70s, was a heck of a bottle of wine. I I haven't tasted it recently, and I don't, I don't know I don't know what it is like today, but but back in the ‘70s, that was a hell of a bottle of wine. And you know -

Doug Shafer:
It it was.

Pete Seghesio:
And .

Doug Shafer:
I know because we used to drink it on the ski hills, and our Davis buddies. We'd go up skiing and that was our botabag wine. It was delish. 

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah. Yeah no back in back in the ‘70s, you know, we sold uh, they were our biggest customer back in the ‘70s. 

Doug Shafer:
So your dad dealt with the brothers.

Pete Seghesio:
With Julio.

Doug Shafer:
Julio.

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Tere's stories there

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah 

Doug Shafer:
[Laughs]

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah, it's an amazing, the the Gallo family is amazing, and the Gallo, um, their commitment to the wine industry is unequaled. 

Doug Shafer:
Well I think, lot of people don't realize, their, they made a quantity of wine that could get out to everyone, that wasn't really expensive and was good. It was sound. It wasn't flawed, it wasn't defective, and that, I think that they don't get enough credit for that, because -

Pete Seghesio:
Well.

Doug Shafer:
Because you know how quickly wine can get a little weird and not be very good. So, they always made solid wines. 

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah and you know, Ernest and Julio created a company, where I I I can't verify this. But I think, all of the profits, there's no profits. I believe, that the way they set it up, is that all of the profits, are invested back in the company.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Pete Seghesio:
And so, you think about the foresight of those two men to structure a company that way, and that's a beautiful thing. 

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Pete Seghesio:
You know that that guarantees long term commitment.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Pete Seghesio:
And it's pretty, you applaud them for their vision. 

Doug Shafer:
Yep. 
So back to you, you're in your 20s, your selling wine, you're on the road. And uh, how'd you meet this woman, Cathy. [laughs]

Pete Seghesio:
Oh I was, I was ah -

Doug Shafer:
Who is Pete's lovely bride, by the way

Pete Seghesio:
I was in New Orleans, I was in New Orleans for just for a trade tasting.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Pete Seghesio:
And you were at that same trade tasting.

Doug Shafer:
[laughs]

Pete Seghesio:
And, she just was uh, I, she was the the representative from the hotel and I was complaining to her about my room, and we had -

Doug Shafer:
[laughs]

Pete Seghesio:
We had a fun dialogue back and forth, and we just we just started chatting, I got her number, and I actually left my phone charger at the hotel. So, when I got back to the winery, I called her, and and uh, and that, was it was also a good reason to call.

Doug Shafer:
Right, right.

Pete Seghesio:
But, you know they did have my, I did leave the phone charger in the room, but that, that led to wonderful conversation, and and our first date like five months later

Doug Shafer:
[laughs]

Pete Seghesio:
And, and uh and just honored to be with her still. 25 years. 

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Pete Seghesio:
This year.

Doug Shafer:
That's great. Where was your first date? New Orleans? Sonoma? Chicago? Somewhere in between?

Pete Seghesio:
It was somewhere in between.

Doug Shafer:
[laughs]

Pete Seghesio:
We both had to be in Houston. So, uh, um, and uh yeah our first date was in Houston of all places. And then we were uh I would I was traveling a lot for the country, for Seghesio, and so I would uh I would, from I think it was first date was end of February, until July, I was in New Orleans for, for, at least every third weekend. 

Doug Shafer:
Yeah. It was

Pete Seghesio:
Talk about a city to fall in love.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah. 

Pete Seghesio:
And it was just, a magical city. It is a magical city.

Doug Shafer:
Still is. It's a great town. Small city.

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
It's it's really quite small in a way. Um but the foods fantastic. 

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
So, back to the mid-90s, you're selling wine, you're falling in love, getting married, you guys had a fire at the winery, right?

Pete Seghesio:
We had a fire, um, and uh, that was one of the one of the great uh, building blocks for Seghesio. That was a it was it allowed us to revamp our whole production facility.

Doug Shafer:
Oh.

Pete Seghesio:
And we we were still fermenting in large concrete vats, and with the proceeds from the fire, they, the the um, the insurance company let us use the funds. We didn't have to rebuild in the exact same building.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
So we used those funds to rebuild our primary fermentation cellar. And so we went from large concrete vats, to five, six, seven ton stainless fermenters.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
And huge implications for quality.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Pete Seghesio:
Huge, obviously, and um, so no, that fire was a key pillar of the improvements that were needed. 
We were, we were, we were, like an old, antiquated facility and between the IRS audit, between the fire, in between the the elder generation giving up control, I think the, you know, there's so many Italian wine families that that the elders did not give up control. But the IRS audit, made things look so bleak.

Doug Shafer:
Huh.

Pete Seghesio:
That, the only card the elders had to play, was lets bet on the kids. And so they gave

Doug Shafer:
Wow

Pete Seghesio:
Me and my cousins, full control, and so you don't see that

Doug Shafer:
No

Pete Seghesio:
You don't, normally it's a piecemeal giving up

Doug Shafer:
Yeah it's tough

Pete Seghesio:
Of the

Doug Shafer:
It can be painful

Pete Seghesio:
Authority. Yeah. And you have to fight for every little thing, and just they reached a point where they're 75, they're 72, they're 78.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Pete Seghesio:
You know, hey we give up. It was a good run. You kids take it, and so um, so we made we made dramatic moves. And that was, and and, anyway the fire was a helpful part. You know, that wasn't obviously planned on, but that was. Kevin Donahue. Is the was our insurance adjuster, uh -

Doug Shafer:
You know his name to this day.

Pete Seghesio:
Well I sat with him on the plane. And I was coming back from a business trip in Boston. He's a huge Irish, huge Irish brogue.

Doug Shafer:
Yep. Got it. 

Pete Seghesio:
And he goes "Pete, ah you'll be fine." I go. He goes "if you have trouble, say this this and this, and do this this and this. And if it doesn't work out, call me." So two weeks later I'm calling him.

Doug Shafer:
[laughs]

Pete Seghesio:
Because otherwise you have these insurance adjusters that are there and they want 15 percent, 20 percent -

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
30 percent. And, he got us a huge settlement for peanuts.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Pete Seghesio:
And he was friends with the insurance company, he knew all the ins and outs, and we just became friends on a flight.

Doug Shafer:
Hmm.

Pete Seghesio:
And that that's it was just a very lucky to meet this person.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Pete Seghesio:
on a united airlines flight going from Boston to San Francisco. Anyway, he really, he's been such a wonderful supporter and just a wonderful man. But Kevin Donahue is an important part of our history.

Doug Shafer:
Huh.
What a, boy, I never knew all that was going on. You got the generational thing, you've got the fire, you're switching the, late, you know, from bulk to specific labels. No wonder I never saw you back in early days.

Pete Seghesio:
[Laughs]

Doug Shafer:
[Laughs]. Except for on the road. Um. And so, time marches on, you're, you in the ‘90s, Seghesio is known for Zinfandel, for the Italian wines. We made a play with Sangiovese but we couldn't keep up with you guys. 
Um. I'm seeing -

Pete Seghesio:
Your back label was something. Your last back label.

Doug Shafer:
The last one.

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah, yeah that was -

Doug Shafer:
On the fire, Last Chance Firebreak.

Pete Seghesio:
[laughs] yeah that was cool.

Doug Shafer:
Did I ever tell you what we did?
We those, some of you might not know, we made this Sangiovese Cabernet blend for about 10 years, and loved it, but decided to -- oh, I need to tell you why I decided not to make it anymore. It was when I was in Panzano, which we'll get to in a minute. But uh, the last, I became friends with Piero Antinori, and Sangiovese ‘cause Dad fell in love with Tiganello.

Pete Seghesio:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Doug Shafer:
That what was the brainchild. So the last bottle off the line of our last Sangiovese. We wrapped it in a white flag of surrender, made a special wood box, and branded on the outside, something like, we give up, you win. And we sent it to Piero Antinori. 

Pete Seghesio:
[laughs]

Doug Shafer:
And whenever I see him, he says Doug, I drank the wine, but I still have the box. [laugh]

Pete Seghesio:
[laughs]

Doug Shafer:
So it's pretty funny. But so you guys are rolling long. You're hot, hot potatoes, and all of a sudden words out that you're selling, you're selling Seghesio. 

Pete Seghesio:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Doug Shafer:
Tell me about that. 

Pete Seghesio:
It was, um, you know, it was I didn't see it coming.

Doug Shafer:
Hmm.

Pete Seghesio:
And it was, the opportunity for I view it, and I view it today as an opportunity for everyone to go on their merry way on top. And it was, you know you, you build up a large company to feed the family, to take care of the family, of the benefit of the family, and the Seghesio was owned by, there was 11 shareholders

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Pete Seghesio:
Headed towards 32. And so, you either have to begin managing towards that and and um, building a large administrative staff to, not keep things fair and balanced just to -

Doug Shafer:
Just to manage

Pete Seghesio:
Just to manage and have everything be transparent. 

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
And then. We we did we did very well.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
But we were doing it with a skeleton team and so as you look towards managing the larger family as it’s gonna grow in the future, that's gonna require a lot of resources and so you know, we were doing very well off, the offer reflected that. 

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
And at the time, there was about a third of the family that wanted to be bought out, there was a third of the family that wanted to not grow and there was a third of the family that wanted to grow. And it's like taking your kids to Disneyland. Every every kids gonna want to do something different.

Doug Shafer:
Great analogy.

Pete Seghesio:
And, um, and I I think it was the opportunity for everybody to go out on top otherwise it would have been, okay the one third that wants to get out, how do we, you know
Then it becomes, it just you just know those kinds of transitions, internally, are very difficult to manage and they usually don't end well for family unity, so I I viewed it as an opportunity to keep the family united, go out on top. And uh, and so uh uh yeah. Didn't see it coming, but that's the, that is the challenge with any winery. 
In in the older European models, usually, the family business is going to one child. 

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
And that keeps it that that's easier for longevity, then if you begin to spread it out.

Doug Shafer:
Spread it out.

Pete Seghesio:
And treat all the -

Doug Shafer:
Yeah yeah it -

Pete Seghesio:
All the -

Doug Shafer:
It prevents all the conflict. The potential conflict

Pete Seghesio:
And and you know god bless my dad and my uncles, but they gifted to their kids equally. 

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
You know, which is a wonderful thing to do. In the end, that makes things more complicated from the management standpoint. But it was a it was a no it was a good thing to do. 

Doug Shafer:
Well I'm with you. Keeping family together is pretty important.

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
So. Cause there's lots of stories we've all read about family businesses where the third or fourth generation are in court, never speak to each other, and no one wants that to happen. 

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah and you don't want to spend, yeah, how do you, it would have, to try to consolidate things, it just it would have taken -

Doug Shafer:
Yeah -

Pete Seghesio:
The rest of our lives to be able to, to narrow it. And so this was uh, we looked at it as a great opportunity, a great pairing. Crimson's a very good company, cares about quality. My cousin Teddy is GM, doing a fantastic job, uh, there's three other family members that work there.

Doug Shafer:
Great.

Pete Seghesio:
So it's a good thing.

Doug Shafer:
And meanwhile, you got to go out and -

Pete Seghesio:
[laugh]

Doug Shafer:
You got to go out and start a new winery. You know, we are going to talk about your meat. But tell, you started making wine again. On your own, your own label. 

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah, it's just it's just, we have two labels. 

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
Journeymen, which is Chardonnay and Pinot.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
And then San Lorenzo, which is when I was running Seghesio, the two top properties were San Lorenzo and Home Ranch, and -

Doug Shafer:
Okay

Pete Seghesio:
So that's why we have two labels. One, one was the uh, which is, dealing with some wonderful grower friends in, in uh the colder part of Russian river, Richie Martinelli, Ulysses Valdez, the Dutton family, 

Doug Shafer:
Great

Pete Seghesio:
And for Chard and Pinot
And then the San Lorenzo's just the estate. But it was, was, important to teach and it is important to teach our children how to make wine. And, they're not, uh, they're not seeing it. The may not see it now, but I firmly believe they're going to want to be winemakers. Uh, I uh uh remember Piero talking about that that you know the children as they come of age, they begin to see, the value of wine and that how wine shows you all the different seasons. The grape vine shows you

Doug Shafer:
Right

Pete Seghesio:
All the different seasons. And I I just think that that's an important thing to do. So my boys help me farm, they help me make the wine. And it's, in the word of my cousin, a small amount of great wine.

Doug Shafer:
[laughs]

Pete Seghesio:
We make, we make about 800 cases. But it's uh, you know, it's very fulfilling, and it's important, just for their education. 

Doug Shafer:
Good for you. You know Elias does that. Well his kids are all grown now, but he had three boys, and he had a home vineyard in his house up in north of Calistoga and they have I think about an acre of grapes that basically, every weekend or even after school, he'd made them go out there and prune or sucker, disk and weed and the whole thing, and they used to complain, complain, complain. But he said like this is your, you know, your, all the money they earn is going into a special account for their college. And um, he taught em the values. And one of his sons has got the bug and is in Australia doing internships in wineries right now, so

Pete Seghesio:
Aww that's great

Doug Shafer:
So pretty, pretty cool. So you're making wine and the wine is at home?

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah

Doug Shafer:
It's in the basement?

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah it’s in the basement, it's uh, uh, I think production capacity is probably 1500 cases. It's you know we're doing about 800 and it's underneath, it's an underground cellar. It's maybe, uh, 1500 square feet of a cave and then a temperature controlled barn. So probably total size is maybe 3000 square feet. And um, but no it's it's to

Doug Shafer:
I'm a little jealous. It sounds like, really fun -

Pete Seghesio:
it's it's

Doug Shafer:
[laughs]

Pete Seghesio:
It's a do, it's to do the best of class but a small amount -

Doug Shafer:
Yeah

Pete Seghesio:
Of these different varieties. It's 

Doug Shafer:
Yeah

Pete Seghesio:
Char, pinot, a Zin, and a wine called The Pearl, which is the oldest part of the vineyard.

Doug Shafer:
Huh

Pete Seghesio:
That was my mom's favorite part of the vineyard. 90 percent of the fruit still goes to Seghesio, so I'm just taking what I think is the best part of the ranch and making a small amount of wine.

Doug Shafer:
Nice.

Pete Seghesio:
With that.

Doug Shafer:
Nice.

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
So good. And then now, now, you're a meat guy. You've this is, you guys can't see it, but Pete bought me a gift this is called the Journeyman Meat Company, Sonoma, and I can't pronounce the salu salu..

Pete Seghesio:
Salumeria.

Doug Shafer:
Salumeria. Which means what

Pete Seghesio:
It just means, place of salami.

Doug Shafer:
Salami.

Pete Seghesio:
It's like delicatessen.
So, but yeah, we have a we have a salumeria and butchers shop in downtown Healdsburg. 

Doug Shafer:
Right on the square, right.

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah, one block north.

Doug Shafer:
One block north.

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah and it's just called Journeyman Meat Company. And the credo is we make all the meat in the shop. 

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
So you come into the shop, the salumi, the jerky, the snack sticks, all of the meat, is uh, is made by us. And so cut, cured, and crafted. The, and it's it's one of a kind, the facility, the salumificio, or plant

Doug Shafer:
Right

Pete Seghesio:
Is about 5000 square feet, but it's Italian designed. It's designed by Frido Mechanica. It's Italian components from Parma, and uh, and uh, you know we put all of that in and uh it's in Cloverdale, so it's in wine country. And we have four fermentation rooms and two large aging rooms and I think one of the things that's really unique is by having four individual aging rooms, it's you know, like wine, it's about purity of flavor, and most people in America will will have a common room for fermentation.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
So fermentation will occur. We do it in the in the 70s, most people are going to be higher than that. But most people will put their batches of salumi in one room. Its gonna be higher humidity, so you're going to have that cross pollination or that humidity interchanging, between the salumi. I don't want that. I don't want my chorizo with my soppressata. I want -

Doug Shafer:
This sounds like making wine man.

Pete Seghesio:
It is.

Doug Shafer:
I mean, come on, Chardonnay, keep the reds separate.

Pete Seghesio:
Keep the reds separate.

Doug Shafer:
You don't want malactic in the white wine, you've got to keep in separate. 

Pete Seghesio:
[laughs]

Doug Shafer:
Okay now, you know, pardon me for being asking probably a really dumb question, but I've got to ask it. You're talking about fermenting meat. I mean, wait a minute, I ferment grapes, I make wine. I know about beer, that's fermentation. I've never, seriously, so pardon me for my ignorance. What are you talking about, fermenting meat?

Pete Seghesio:
Meat is, meat has to uh, has to be safe, it has to uh, undergo a pH change. So it's not just drying the meat.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
The meat also has to go through a pH change and that fermentation will release acid, and that is what helps purify the meat. 
Meat will begin at a pH of about 6.0.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
And to be safe it has to get under 5.3, per USDA.

Doug Shafer:
Okay under 5.3 so folks, pH is a measurement of acidity and the lower the pH, that means, the more acidic it is.

Pete Seghesio:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
And a pH ranges from 0 to 14, 7 is like, neutral. And so we're saying meats normally 6.3. it ferments -

Pete Seghesio:
And you.

Doug Shafer:
And it ends up being a 5.3 which is more acidic, which is safer per the guidelines.

Pete Seghesio:
Yes.

Doug Shafer:
Okay, I'm just thinking through that.

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah and and, most the the challenge is the challenge is um, getting in under 5.3, but not, we don't like it to go under 5.0.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
So industry is gonna be 4.7, 4.8, 4.6, and uh but in Italy, it's gonna be closer to five.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
And so the the the style, and to me what's going on in the meat industry is you have some of us from a crafts perspective that are doing smaller batch, smaller batch salumi.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
At a higher pH because that's what we all fell in love with in Italy.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
You go, I I interned with the Marini family for five, five Februaries. That's my February, when the wine is done, when the vineyards done, when I can relax, I would go to the Marini family out of Florence, and that was where my apprenticeship was. And I try to go back there, still, I try to go back every year.

Doug Shafer:
And this is in Panzano.

Pete Seghesio:
Well, well, Dario.

Doug Shafer:
Panzano.

Pete Seghesio:
Panzano.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
The Marino family is in Pistoia, just ah, it's in the other side of Florence.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
From Panzano, and just about 20 minutes from downtown.

Doug Shafer:
How did you find these guys?

Pete Seghesio:
Alberto Antoinini who is our lead consultant at Seghesio -

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
Is good friends with the Marini family.

Doug Shafer:
[laughs]

Pete Seghesio:
And that's, so I that's how I got in I was the first outsider let in, they let me see, they let me see all of the recipes, I made product with them, and it's different over there, they have one week to accomplish being under 5.3. Here, we have less time, it has to be more rapid, and that's the challenge is, is, the slower the fermentation, you risk not complying with USDA, but the slower the fermentation, it's like doing a natural fermentation on Chardonnay. 

Doug Shafer:
Got it.

Pete Seghesio:
You're going to have a lot more nuance, a lot more buttery-ness, a lot more  -

Doug Shafer:
Complexity and -

Pete Seghesio:
Complexity.

Doug Shafer:
Aromas, yeah, the whole thing.

Pete Seghesio:
So in the speed of fermentation, dictates how quickly it ages, so so, the the the release of moisture during fermentation basically sets the gauge for how that salumi is going to age. 
So if it ages, if it ferments very fast, that means you have large pores, so that means it's going to age faster because there's large pores are channels for the moisture to get out.

Doug Shafer:
Right, got it. 

Pete Seghesio:
But if you do a slower fermentation, smaller pores, then it's gonna take longer, and that's how you get more complexity. 

Doug Shafer:
I'm with you, so now you're fermenting with yeast, what's the, what's the …

Pete Seghesio:
It's a bacteria

Doug Shafer:
It's a bacteria, it's like a malactic thing, okay.

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
It’s a bacteria.

Doug Shafer:
So how do you.

Pete Seghesio:
We we are using we have to use a little bit of a sugar source, a food source for that bacteria.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah, got it.

Pete Seghesio:
And so that's the other thing, its not just the temperature of fermentation, it's also how much you feed the bacteria.

Doug Shafer:
Just like wine.

Pete Seghesio:
Exactly.

Doug Shafer:
[laughs]

Pete Seghesio:
It's an amazing, it's amazing, and so like there's industry will make chubs, you know that, that, like, industry can make something that diameter in in probably 20 days, that took us 60, you know.

Doug Shafer:
Wow.

Pete Seghesio:
So we're twice, if not three times as long. But you just get much more complexity, more buttery-ness, more layers of flavor. 
It's all about palate, weight, depth of flavor, it's same as wine

Doug Shafer:
So how do you stop the fermentation which is a wine-making question

Pete Seghesio:
It's got to be all the way fermented.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
Has to be fermented to dry.

Doug Shafer:
So it's to dryness.

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
Okay got it. So then now you said, now you're talking about aging, you've got to age it. 

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
How long do you age?

Pete Seghesio:
Well the little chub, so our fermentation are typically five days.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
And then, uh, and then the chubs will age for about 25 so total time is 30. But -

Doug Shafer:
Sorry what's a chub

Pete Seghesio:
A chub is gonna be about a 30 millimeters around.

Doug Shafer:
That's like your middle finger and thumb almost touching,

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah.

Doug Shafer:
And how long.

Pete Seghesio:
Well they're gonna be an 8 ounce chub is gonna be about 6 inches 7 inches long. 

Doug Shafer:
Got it, okay, so no you're gonna age it.

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah, so that total time is about is about uh 30 days. 

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
But if you go with the 70 millimeter, which that one is, so 

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Pete Seghesio:
So twice the size, that's gonna take you 60 days.

Doug Shafer:
Okay and aging temperature is?

Pete Seghesio:
We like to be in the mid 50s.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
So 53, 54 and humidities, you know I shouldn't say.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Pete Seghesio:
But ah higher than what's your humidity in your wine cellar.

Doug Shafer:
Ah. God hopefully it's 65 percent.

Pete Seghesio:
Ah we're higher than that.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Pete Seghesio:
We're typically, we're, it's gonna range.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
It's gonna range between the upper 70s typically in the upper 70s, lower 80s, but the important thing is that salumi is a living entity. It's a living, it's a living entity so in that aging room, it is, with the aging, it is releasing aroma and you need to bring in fresh fresh air.

Doug Shafer:
Got it.

Pete Seghesio:
So we bring in, typically, air every night, and then one time during the day but it's all filtered.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Pete Seghesio:
But it's ah, but we're bringing in outside air and releasing some of the air inside so you, you need to bring in fresh air, usually about an hour every 12 hours.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
Of fresh air, that's coming in so that you don't build up too much of an ammonia smell.

Doug Shafer:
Got it. And what happens during the aging process, how is that is the changing the taste, the aroma?

Pete Seghesio:
It's really what the the the aroma coming out of the fermentation, to me the most beautiful smell is is well it used to be fermenting Zinfandel grapes.

Doug Shafer:
It's -

Pete Seghesio:
Now it's fermenting salumi.

Doug Shafer:
It's fermenting Chardonnay for me in the barrel

Pete Seghesio:
Yep so so, it's really just the the main thing is we are just seeing the concentration of meat. So the whole um, meat process, we figure we lose about 40 percent.

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Pete Seghesio:
So, that's the thing is that you will see more concentration of flavor.

Doug Shafer:
Okay.

Pete Seghesio:
Between day 1 in the aging room and day 25, you're going to have much more concentrated. So you're just watching, the flavors are just going to become more and more pronounced as that product dries.

Doug Shafer:
You know, I'm just sitting here, I'm just kind of stunned. I love it. So you're still you're still an artist, my friend

Pete Seghesio:
Yeah

Doug Shafer:
You've gone from wine to salumi

Pete Seghesio:
It, it you know, one of the one of the and I didn't realize this, at the beginning

Doug Shafer:
Right

Pete Seghesio:
You know, I didn't, I you know my opportunity to work with Dario Cecchini, from Panzano, um, you know, it it's been an amazing uh journey and Dario's words were very important and you know Dario, just some of the things like, Peter don't don't worry about trying to figure it out, just like make great quality and 
And it's a symphony. The butcher shop, the salumificio, the celle, where they make it, the and the little bites of food, it's all a symphony, it all works together. And just focus on your region. Dario's salumi, that he he makes and his sausage that he makes, um, and the lardo that he makes are with indigenous herbs to Tuscany. Lot of juniper, some bay, and so two of the salumi that we make are Bianca and Rosso, are basically indigenous herbs from this area, from Sonoma and Napa.

Doug Shafer:
Right.

Pete Seghesio:
And and are indigenous in that these are spices that have been here for the past century. And utilizing the whole animal, focusing on the quality of ingredients, and um, but yeah I guess I didn't realize, uh, the similarities between wine and salumi with fermentation, with aging, how critical the components are, and the importance of fresh ingredients, the importance of the best ingredients. And uh, I think a common thing is that salumi today in America are not balanced, they're bold, they're 

Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Pete Seghesio:
Big. They're most Italian, salumists, salumi

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Pete Seghesio:
Would come and they can't eat, what the salumi we make today here in America. It's too spicy, it's too heavy, and -

Doug Shafer:
Right right

Pete Seghesio:
So we want it flavorful but we want it balanced, and one of the things that's interesting with salami, if you put too many spices in, because they're going to be concentrated -

Doug Shafer:
Right

Pete Seghesio:
Because of the aging process, it's very easy for them to clash. And so, I've had to throttle back substantially, and these are recipe, a recipes that I'm working on for five years now.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Pete Seghesio:
Six years.

Doug Shafer:
Yeah.

Pete Seghesio:
And I've had to dramatically pull back on ingredient amounts and number, just because it clashes too much so it's it's very it's it's amazing

Doug Shafer:
Pete. I'm so glad you're here. I it is so cool to see you and see the passion you had making wine and now you have with the salumi, and you're just, you're like a light bulb sitting over there.

Pete Seghesio:
Oh.

Doug Shafer:
You're you're just flaming on. But, thanks for coming today it was a great time, great to catch up.

Pete Seghesio:
Thank you so much, Doug, appreciate it

Doug Shafer:
Thank you, yeah take care. 

Pete Seghesio:
Alright

Full Transcript

Doug:
Hey everybody, Doug Shafer, uh, back with another episode of The Taste. And,  excited about our guest today. It's a guy who I know, um, and I don't know. And it's like we've just been talking and something's really wrong about that because we've run in the same circles, but we don't seem to intersect. It's, uh, John Anthony Truchard of John Anthony Vineyards and JaM Cellars.
             
Welcome my friend.

John Anthony:
Thank you, Doug. Glad to be here. 

Doug:
Glad you're here. I know we ... I need to start out before we get going. You know, I really want to hear a lot about you, but I've got some Truchard stories to tell.

John Anthony:
Great.

Doug:
And ... and you probably know about them. But, Shafer Vineyards and myself, I started purchasing grapes from your parents, Tony and Joanne, back in the early going. And we've ... I got word that there was this great grower down in Carneros, but it wasn't really Carneros. It's in this fantastic micro climate, like warm Carneros. So, it's great. I started buying Merlot from them, I think I bought some Chard. And then, um, went a ... a number of years without buying grapes from them, like maybe close to 20 because we had our own vineyards. But just ... I'm not sure if you know this, for the last two or three years, we started buying Syrah from them again. 

John Anthony:
I do, yeah. 

Doug:
So, it's sort of a kick to get back with your folks. But I mean, this is back in the 80's sometime. Your mom used to deliver gondolas of grapes, just like my mom used to delivery grapes in gondolas, those big old heavy things driving down the road.

John Anthony:
That's right.

Doug:
Um, I gotta tell you, if you never met this John Anthony's parents, they're two of the nicest people in this valley. They are fantastic folks, they're good people, they grow great grapes, and they're ... working with them is a joy. 
             
And what ... I was thinking about you last night thinking, "You know, I never knew the kids." Because I'd be down there sampling grapes or talking to Joanne and Tony, I was thinking about what year it was, what year it was. And then I had a ... one thing I ... I'll never forget. It had to be '86, '87 because this is back when Elias and I were ... every time we decided to pick a vineyard, we'd second guess ourselves all day long. "Okay, we're going tomorrow. You think it's right? I'm not sure. You think it's right." So some ... a lot of times, we'd actually go out late afternoon or the night before our schedule to pick, just to taste it one more time. Just to ... to do it one more time.
             
And I'll never forget it, I had my daughter, Katie who was born in '85, and all I can remember ... all I remember is she was in a front pack, in ... on me in a front pack ... by the time I got down there, it was dark. It was in the fall, six ... six o'clock at night. I'm out there with Katie in a front pack, he's giggling, and it's in the dark. I've got a flashlight, sampling grapes and tasting them and she's giggling and I'm feeding her grapes. 
             
So, I know when I was buying those grapes, it was '86, '87. So that means you had to be like how old?

John Anthony:
12. 

Doug:
12?

John Anthony:
Yeah, I was born in '72, so I was probably about 12, 13 years old at the time. 

Doug:
Wow. So you were 12, and here I am, you know, trying to figure out how to make wine and, uh ... that was my time check. Because I was trying to figure out last night, what was the year. And then the Katie thing kicked in. Um-

John Anthony:
Yeah. I remember those. Uh, I was probably at least half those trips. Because my parents, they would try to schedule the picks on the weekends, because we were living in Reno at the time and coming down to Napa. And so I ... I was, uh, co-pilot. You know, I was the person doing the pins and the uh-

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
You know, the electrical cord on the back of those, uh, Suburban and the Blazers. 

Doug:
Make sure ... Yeah, remember those electrical cords, how they always short out and everything. 

John Anthony:
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Doug:
All right, but let's go back. You take it away. You, um, your mom and dad are from Texas. How the heck did they end out here in Carneros, which is Southern Napa, beautifulest place to grow grapes?

John Anthony:
Yeah. It's kind of a-

Doug:
Tell ... tell me the ... tell me the story. 

John Anthony:
It's kind of a fun story. Well, you know, there's ... Even before that, my great-grandfather, uh, was in the wine business in Texas. 

Doug:
No. No no no. They didn't ... they didn't have a wine business back that far?

John Anthony:
Yeah, they did.

Doug:
I know they do now. Okay.

John Anthony:
So, like, in 1888, my great-grandfather, Jean-Marie Truchard, came over from Lyon, France. They bought 500 acres, planted 20 acres of vines, built a small winery and they made grapes between like 1890 and the ... the, um, um, prohibition.

Doug:
You're kidding? What part of Texas? 

John Anthony:
Uh, Columbus, which is about an hour west of Houston in I-10.

Doug:
Got it. 

John Anthony:
Hour, hour and a half west, a little town called Catsprings. 

Doug:
(laughs)

John Anthony:
And so ... And so, yeah, grape growing had been in our, uh, family for quite a while. Um, you know, there's like the romantic side of the story, and then you ... you dig into it. As I get older you ... you hear more and more and what we've kind of realized was, I think my ... my grandfather was a little bit of a trouble maker back in France. And so his older brothers shipped him out here to put him to work. It was ... You know, you ... There's this vision of like, "Oh, he's a great entrepreneur, he's coming out from France to start a winery." I think he was a trouble maker the older brother was like, "Put him out here, we'll put him to work." 

Doug:
Ex ... ex ... exiled to Texas.

John Anthony:
Exiled to Texas, basically.

Doug:
(laughs) Oh, man.

John Anthony:
And so my ... my ... my, uh, grandfather and father were born on that ranch in Texas. 

Doug:
Okay. 

John Anthony:
And, uh, father went off to, um, undergraduate and then med school. His last year of med school, ran out of money and he turned to the Army. Uh, the Army paid for his last year of med school. And he owed the Army two years of service.

Doug:
And that ... And was, uh, general practice or dentistry?

John Anthony:
Uh, general practice. He was an internist. 

Doug:
Okay. Internist. That's right. Okay. 

John Anthony:
And so my parents lived in San Antonio.

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
Uh, my father was in the Army. Uh, I have three older sisters, my mom was nine months pregnant with me and they orders to go overseas for their last year of, uh, military service. And-

Doug:
Well, okay. Wait a minute. He had ... he had to go overseas. He took-

John Anthony:
Well, he was supposed to go overseas. 

Doug:
He was supposed to. 

John Anthony:
But that actually never happened. 

Doug:
Okay. 

John Anthony:
What ended up happening, my mother goes to a, uh, a Piggly Wiggly's to get some last minute supplies-

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
Before I was born. On the ... on the way out of the store, she slips on a grape, of all things, breaks her leg and, uh, she's in a full leg cast. And so my ... my dad goes and says, "Hey, can I get delays in my orders to go overseas because I've got these three little girls, my wife's in a full leg cast, she's due any ... any day now." And they said, "Instead of sending you overseas, we're going to send you out to California, the west coast." 
             
And so, it was kind of a ... a literally a slip on a grape and a twist of fate that got my parents out here in the first place. 

Doug:
You ... You've got to be kidding me? You ... Come on, you made that up. You just had made [crosstalk 00:08:19]-

John Anthony:
Uh, you ... you would think. What's crazy is-

Doug:
I'm calling Joanne. I'm calling your mom.

John Anthony:
Yeah. And I don't think ... I think the first time I heard the story, I was like ten years old, I'm like, "Come on. Really? Like, a grape?"

Doug:
That's crazy. 

John Anthony:
And they were like, you know ... And it's ... My parents aren't really into fate. You know, they're just hard workers and they put their head down and they just go to work.

Doug:
So ... So they've moved out ... So he was moved out and stationed in California.

John Anthony:
Correct.

Doug:
And you were ... you're the oldest. 

John Anthony:
Uh, no, I've got three older sisters. 

Doug:
Three older sisters. 

John Anthony:
Um, and then myself and I have a younger brother Anthony, who works full time at Truchard.

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
And then my youngest sister, Suzanne. 

Doug:
Wow. 

John Anthony:
So, six of us all in all.

Doug:
Okay.

John Anthony:
And we actually lived in Reno from 1974 through 1986. 

Doug:
Well-

John Anthony:
And when I say the Army moved my parents to West Coast, it turned out it was Herlong, California, which is really like, more like Northern Nevada, than it is California. 

Doug:
I've never heard of Herlong. 

John Anthony:
Yeah, well, right. Neither had my parents. And so my ... my dad did some research when he was ordered to go to Herlong and ... and he's like I can't find it on the map, and uh, and his ... his reporting officer said, "Well, of course not, Tony. That's the West Coast nuclear arsenal. We're sending you out there to make sure none of the soldiers do drugs. For a year." 
             
So it was a little bit like punishment. You know, it was like ... they went from like thinking that this great, overseas experience, to like being stationed in Herlong. 

Doug:
Uh.

John Anthony:
And that's what connected him with Reno, Nevada. 

Doug:
Okay.

John Anthony:
And there was great medical opportunities in Reno. And so, uh, at the same time, he bought the first 20 acres in Napa, 1974-

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
He was thinking about moving to Napa, but the medical opportunities in Reno were great. And so, he was 35 years old at the time and thought, "Well, I'll practice medicine in Reno and start this little vineyard in Napa." And had no idea how much work is involved in starting a vineyard right. It's not like a farm in Texas where you just have the property. 

Doug:
So, that was '74. 

John Anthony:
1974. 

Doug:
We ... we moved out in '73, I was 17. So ... so when he bought that ... It was 20 acres? Or 30?

John Anthony:
20 acres of old prunes. No vineyards. 

Doug:
20 acres. So he ... Did he start farming it right away?

John Anthony:
He did.

Doug:
So he was this ... Because this is ... When I first started working with them, they were still doing the commute.

John Anthony:
Yup.

Doug:
So for 12 years-

John Anthony:
That's correct.

Doug:
They commuted week ... every week from Reno to the Napa Valley.

John Anthony:
That's correct. For 12 years from 1974 through 1986, they made 50 trips a year for 12 years. About 50. About every weekend. 

Doug:
And that's like ... it's four hours one way, easy.

John Anthony:
Uh, it's uh three hours no stop. But ... but we had ... there were six kids in the car and two dogs, so you had to have a stop, right. So it was three and a half with the stop. 

Doug:
What kind of car?

John Anthony:
Uh, it started off as a ... as a Blazer. 

Doug:
Yeah, I remember those.

John Anthony:
And it was like, when we got the Suburban, it was like, you know, euphoria. "Oh, my God. There's a seat for all of us." (laughs) I was sitting on those, like, console. You know, that center hard, plastic console of the old Blazers? That was my seat. 

Doug:
I don't know how you guys did that. 

John Anthony:
Man, you just ... you don't know any different. It's what you do. 

Doug:
I ... I guess. 

John Anthony:
But it was a total blessing, Doug, because ... because the fact that every weekend my family came to Napa, I was pulled away from soccer, baseball, sleep overs, all my friends. And so I was just with my dad out in the vineyards and so I had a chance to really learn grape growing first hand, right ... right there with my dad. And he was a farmer from Texas that loved to get out and get his hands dirty. As you well know, right? I mean he was-

Doug:
Oh, still does. 

John Anthony:
He still does, right. 

Doug:
We [inaudible 00:11:42] ... Elias and I pulled in the other ... this last ... this last harvest, we were sampling the Syrah. And there's your dad out there, you know, overseeing loading ... loading the bins and all that. 

John Anthony:
Oh yeah. He was actually loading the bins. 

Doug:
Yeah.

John Anthony:
He's not overseeing. He's actually loading the bins. 

Doug:
Yeah, he's on the forklift with the thing ... It's like, "Hey Tony." "Well, hey Doug. How you..." I was just like ... just like, you know, time had stood still for 20 years. 

John Anthony:
Yeah, that's real special that they're now selling to Shafer again. That means a lot to them.

Doug:
No, it's neat.

John Anthony:
And I thought that was really cool.

Doug:
Yeah, we love it. 

John Anthony:
Yeah.

Doug:
And you so something else. You know what's great about them, they're really fair. You know something? I mean, grape prices have gone just crazy and all of a sudden I'm talking to your mom, we were figuring out the price, she goes, "Oh, Doug, that's fine." I said, "Joanne, that's not enough." She goes, "No, it's fine. We're good." I ... I love it.

John Anthony:
Yeah. 

Doug:
It's just ... you now. 

John Anthony:
They're a great barometer, right. When you want to ... if you want to get a sense like where the tonnages are in the valley, I can talk to my parents and with, uh ... They have 400 acres of property, 270 planted, you get a good sense of like, you know are ... are ... are tonnages high this year, are they low this year. If you want to get a sense of like ... And for them, they've been in it now for, um, well since '74. 

Doug:
Right.

John Anthony:
And so, they ... they realize, like, "Hey, you know, what you want to do is you want to do right by your partners." And these grower ... these wineries are our partners and ... and yeah, if the prices go up we want to have our prices go up, too, but we don't have to have the highest price-

Doug:
Don't

John Anthony:
But they just also don't want to have the lowest price. 

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
And just do right by them and they'll do right by you. 

Doug:
Oh, no. Straight-

John Anthony:
It's pretty simple.

Doug:
Straight shooters. 
             
All right, so you're hear in ... Well, so when you guys made the permanent move in '86-

John Anthony:
Yup.

Doug:
You're how old? 

John Anthony:
At the time I was ... Well, in '86 I was 14. 

Doug:
Got it.

John Anthony:
So, I was born in '72, so I was 14. So I was ... I was entering my sophomore year in high school.

Doug:
So you went to high school in Napa. 

John Anthony:
I did.  Vintage High. I graduated in 1990. 

Doug:
And you ... Did you know ... you know David Illsley, our vineyard manager?

John Anthony:
Absolutely. Yeah, David's class of '88. Yeah, he was the tight end. He was the, you know, one of the, you know, the star athletes on the-

Doug:
Well, he's ... Yeah. He's got his whole history. I gotta get him in here some day and tell ... tell his story.

John Anthony:
Absolutely. 

Doug:
But, uh, so Vintage High, graduated and then where?

John Anthony:
So, then, uh ... At that time I ... I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do. I wanted to, probably like a lot of kids that were ... um, grew up around Napa, I wanted to ... to get out. And uh, I ... I liked the wine industry, but I didn't really know, you know, what else the world had to offer. So, um, went off to University of Nevada, Reno for, uh, for a year.

Doug:
Okay.

John Anthony:
And then transferred down to San Diego State. And it was ... it was somewhere during my second year at San Diego State, it ... it dawned on me, like, "Wow. If I can find a way to create a life for myself in the wine industry, that'd be a great life to live." Right? And maybe it just takes getting away from something. You know, it's like the unsatisfied need motivates.

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
Right? When you're around it all the time, it's all you know, you don't know otherwise and probably after being away for two years-

Doug:
And were your ... were your folks making ... I'm interrupting. I apologize. 

John Anthony:
That's all right. 

Doug:
Were your folks making wine at that point? Truchard Vineyards?

John Anthony:
They did. They're first vintage was 1989. 

Doug:
Okay, so-

John Anthony:
They crushed at ... Uh, the first vintage was crushed at Honig. And uh-

Doug:
With Michael. Yeah. 

John Anthony:
And um, James Hall, was the ... I think the-

Doug:
James. 

John Anthony:
Yeah, was making the wine at that time. 

Doug:
Okay, so they had that going. 

John Anthony:
They had that going. '89 was their first vintage and then 1990, um, my senior year, was the first year they crushed grapes at Truchard, but that was ... that was actually in the fall of 1990 and I graduated in, like, you know, in the previous year. So ... that first crush I was off to college, but I would come back ... I'd come back all the times I enjoyed it.

Doug:
Yeah.

John Anthony:
And I realized, like, I want to go back home. I enjoy being around it.

Doug:
Right. How fun.
             
All right, so you're down at San Diego State, you're thinking about getting in the wine business. 

John Anthony:
Yeah. 

Doug:
Thinking about getting in the wine business.

John Anthony:
That's right. So I was kind of thinking, "okay, I think I'd like to do this." And ... and so, the plan at the time was to change my, uh ... um, to change schools. So I transferred to UC Davis.

Doug:
Okay. 

John Anthony:
And uh, I was pre-med at the time. And my goal was to go ... to go to med school and then ... and then I wanted to get my undergraduate degree in wine making and ... or fermentation science at the time. 

Doug:
Right. Right. 

John Anthony:
And, uh, and go off to med school. And it was probably after a couple years at Davis and I did some, uh, volunteer work at hospitals and I realized I really don't want to go down that path.

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
And so, I dropped the pre-med component of it. And uh ... and uh, um ... and it was actually a very interesting time. So I was ... I was actually taking my fermentation science classes, and I got to a point where I had to, um, for my upper division, I had to select, uh, what units I wanted to take. And one of the questions ... one of the options was like, uh, barrel selection. And I was ... I was in my apartment in Sacramento, and I started thinking about, like, "Well, I mean, I was brought up around the grape growing side of the business. I understand that really well. And I understand what I do and don't know. But I don't know a lot of ..." And I ... I'd been near the wine making side. 

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
But I don't understand, like, the business side of it. At all, really. And um, and I started thinking about the successful wine businesses, and I realized, like, they grew great grapes and they made great wine, but they were also successful business people that ran those operations.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John Anthony:
And so I called my mom and I said, "I'm going to change my major to economics." And my mom said, "We're only paying for five years.' (laughs) 

Doug:
(laughs) I can see that. 

John Anthony:
So, okay. Yeah. Exactly. 

Doug:
I can hear her saying that. 

John Anthony:
You transferred schools now a couple times, and ... I was pretty consistent on the science platform, so I hadn't lost a lot. But, so I changed my, uh, my ... Well, effectively it was my senior year, I changed my major to economics and I just kind of started from scratch a little bit, you know.

Doug:
And so ... so how much ... So how long did you stay in ... How many years in economics?

John Anthony:
Yeah, so ... seven ... seven years and then, yeah-

Doug:
Yeah. 

John Anthony:
I might have a class or two I still need to finish up at Davis. I'm not quite sure. 

Doug:
So you took a bunch of econ and business? 

John Anthony:
I did. I did. 

Doug:
You know, I'm jealous, because I only took one econ class, Econ 1A and halfway through, I was like, "I gotta take this pass/no pass" (laughs) Remember that?

John Anthony:
Oh, yeah.

Doug:
I love pass/no pass.

John Anthony:
Yeah.

Doug:
But the only thing I ever really remember about it is supply demand. You know. 

John Anthony:
There you go.

Doug:
That ... And you know something? That's actually helped me a lot. 

John Anthony:
That's right. You guys got that equation right. That's for sure. 

Doug:
But uh ... Boy. Okay. 

John Anthony:
Yeah, so, uh, so finished up at Davis and then ... When I was there, it could be-

Doug:
Well, so why ... I'm sorry. 

John Anthony:
That's okay. 

Doug:
Was ... Did you like it?

John Anthony:
Uh, the business side of it?

Doug:
The ... Yeah. 

John Anthony:
Yeah, I did. Um, it ... it ... it helped me to at least get a framework to think about things. Again, my father was a doctor, my mother was a school teacher and my father was a farmer. And it just became really clear to me that, uh, farming is different than business per se. I mean, you have to be ... I think successful farmers are also good business people, but when you start making wine, it just gets ... it gets a lot more complex. And then you start marketing it-

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
And distributing it and the complexity that goes up a lot.

Doug:
Yeah.

John Anthony:
And ... and that's not what my parents' background really was at the time. 

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John Anthony:
And so, um, uh, Davis was pretty, uh, theoretical by nature, but uh, but yeah, it gave me a great framework to think about ... to think about things.

Doug:
To start thinking about. 

John Anthony:
Yeah.

Doug:
Okay, well that ... that's a ... a precursor to some things I want to ask you later about, good. 

John Anthony:
All right. All right. 

Doug:
(laughs)
             
Um, oh, jumping back to high school. Vintage High, you met some guys. The BottleRock guys. Now, I have to jump in, here. For those of you that don't know, Bottle Rock is this fantastic three day music culinary arts, in a way, festival.

John Anthony:
Right.

Doug:
That's held ... It's in the fifth year now, I think? 

John Anthony:
For sure. It was 2013. So whatever that makes this year, yeah. 

Doug:
'13, so about fifth year. So, for Memorial Day Weekend, it's a three day deal, um, I uh, I'm proud to say I finally went last year. Because, you'll be happy to know this, my 16 year old came to me and said, "Dad, Tom Petty's playing and I want to see him with you."

John Anthony:
Nice. 

Doug:
And at first, I was like, "Ah, the big music festival is not my scene." And then I thought to myself, "Wait a minute. My 16 year old kid is asking me to go to Tom Petty with him." 

John Anthony:
And it's at Napa. 

Doug:
Well, it's in Napa, yeah, I didn't have to drive too far. And we had a gas. I loved it.

John Anthony:
Nice.

Doug:
So, um, going back this year. He's running around on his own, but my 13 year old daughter is going and I'm ... She said, "I'm going with my friends." I said, "No. You're going with me." (laughs) So, but uh, it's fantastic.
             
So who ... These guys. 

John Anthony:
Yeah, a really interesting story there. 

Doug:
Dave and Justin and Jason.

John Anthony:
Yeah, that's right. Dave Graham, uh, Justin Dragoo and Jason Scoggins. So, it actually even goes back a little further. I met Justin in Reno, Nevada when we were like three years old at the YMCA. 

Doug:
(laughs)

John Anthony:
Yeah, it's kind of crazy. The ... the history on it's nuts. 

Doug:
You know, I love this. Wait a minute. Reno, Nevada, three-

John Anthony:
Three years old, YMCA. 

Doug:
And, but you don't remember meeting him, do you?

John Anthony:
No, I don't.

Doug:
Okay, all right. Just checking.

John Anthony:
But then what happened was my ... my ... my mom and his mom became good friends. And then my father and his father, Mic Dragoo became good friends. And they used to come down and visit us in Napa. And ... and ... and I even-

Doug:
From Reno.

John Anthony:
From Reno. Yeah. And because Mic liked making wine. And so he'd come down to Truchard and make wine. And so Justin and I kind of grew up-

Doug:
You kind of grew up.

John Anthony:
A little bit, before ... before either of us moved to Napa. And then he moved to Napa ... Uh, Justin Dragoo moved to Napa in like the, um, it was like the 4th grade or 5th grade. And so I would start, um ... we would come down and visit and I'd hang out with Justin. So I got to know a lot of those guys before I even officially moved here. 

Doug:
Lot of his ... A lot of his friends. 

John Anthony:
A lot of his friends. 

Doug:
Because you're hanging out on the weekends. 

John Anthony:
Exactly. And he happened to live right across the street from Michele Crane, who is now my wife, Michele. 

Doug:
Ooh. 

John Anthony:
And so yeah, it's like a really small little world. But it's kind of crazy.
             
And so, I met Jason, uh, Scoggins and Dave Graham in, uh, in high school. So we went to high school together. All the class of 1990. And then, uh, for 12 years, I also did a ... My day job was in the, uh, the Tech space or the dot.com space. And Dave Graham and I worked there for a number of years, together. Uh, became close friends, um, and he was best man in my wedding and we worked with Jason in those days. And ... and so, yeah, there's a ... there's, uh, very much a shared history there of us working together, knowing each other. 

Doug:
Wow. And I bet you ... I bet you guys were at your folks ranch on the weekends, riding-

John Anthony:
Oh, yeah.

Doug:
Riding Hondas. Just tearing it up.

John Anthony:
Oh, yeah.

Doug:
Yeah. Ah.

John Anthony:
Yeah, fishing, riding Hondas, getting into trouble when my mom and dad weren't around, for sure. 

Doug:
Oh, and by the way, JaM Cellars, one of your opp ... one of your fantastic wineries-

John Anthony:
Yup.

Doug:
Is a major sponsor for Bottle Rock. In fact, you guys sponsor the big ... It's the big ... What's it called? The Big Stage? Or it's called the JaM Cellars Stage?

John Anthony:
Yeah. Well, we ... it's ... we're actually presenting sponsors. 

Doug:
Presenting spon-

John Anthony:
So, it's uh ... Yeah the first several years ... The first year, we shared a tent, that was in 2013. And then ... Version 1.0 of Bottle Rock failed and it was ... And Dave, Jason and Justin kind of came in and resuscitated it. So I call it, you know, the new and improved version or 2.0.
             
And so 2014 was their first year. We did a tent in 2014, uh, 2015 we were, um, second stage sponsor and then we've been, uh, presenting and main stage sponsor for '16,'17, then in '18. And uh, you know, I remember the first time, that was two years ago, three years ago, they presented the idea of us being the um, the uh, um, presenting sponsor which is, you know, it means you're on the advertising, all year round.

Doug:
Right.

John Anthony:
And ... and our VP of Marketing, Sarah, said uh, she walks out and she's like, "Well, there's no way in hell we're going to do that." I'm like, "Well. Let's just think about it." Because you know, we like the ... we like the idea of supporting it. Plus it's a neat way to tag our brand with a ... with a great, um, festival, and get our name out there. And you can only tell someone to buy your wine so much, right. But if you can help support other cool things and ... and benefit each other, that's a good place to be.

Doug:
You guys have killed it. Just killed it ... What a great story. I mean, kids goofing around on the weekends and now you're ... I mean, for those of you who don't know about Brow ... Bottle Rock, there's ... I think they're talking about 120,000 people coming this year.

John Anthony:
Oh yeah.

Doug:
I read it in the paper today. You know, they've been working on the ... setting up the stage for weeks, if no months.

John Anthony:
That's correct.

Doug:
And everything on ... You know, it just transforms downtown Napa. 120,000 people and it just, you know, you three knucklehead kids. Or three or four knucklehead kids putting it together.

John Anthony:
I know, man, yeah. That's right. I think it's been named like one of the top ten festivals in the United States. It's like probably the ... I think it's like the highest, like, per person, um ... revenue per person. Because you've got such great, um, food and wine, right? It's almost like Aspen food and wine with ... with like-

Doug:
With really good ... with great music. 

John Anthony:
A music festival associated with it. Because you've some of the best chefs in the world, some of the best wines in the world, and then you also have some of the best music in the world. So it just ... it's a really unique. Where most other music festivals don't have that food and wine component. 

Doug:
the food thing. 

John Anthony:
Not even close. 

Doug:
Yeah.

John Anthony:
That's what Bottle Rock does. 

Doug:
Yeah, the food was great last year. That blew me away. I didn't ... I expected the wine to be pretty good, but, uh, the food was neat.

John Anthony:
That's right.

Doug:
And it must be kind of fun ... I'm pretty sure you're a big music guy, so you're meeting some of these performers and celebrities and stars, that must be cool.

John Anthony:
It's great to have them come to Napa and see ... and hear them play. We usually end up having so many of our, um, business partners there, we uh ... you know we spend a lot of time in hospitality. It's almost more of a working event for us, than a true ... Probably four or five years ago it was more fun, and now it's more work. But uh, but we have a great time regardless. 

Doug:
Good. All right, so, step back. So, the business thing ... What led you back to wine?

John Anthony:
Yeah, so um, again probably it was ... It was probably my, uh ... After I switched my major over to econ at Davis and ... and uh, I knew I wanted to get in the wine business, but you know, what does that mean? Right. The challenge of the wine business is like-

Doug:
Right.

John Anthony:
If you want to make your own wine, it takes a lot of time and money and I was ... I was 22 years old at the time. I had ... I had a lot of time. I had no money, at all. Zero.

Doug:
Right.

John Anthony:
And so I remember I ... I came back from, uh, this ... I'd quit this crappy internship I had and I'd came back to my apartment where my wife, then girlfriend, Michele and I said, "Here's my plan. I'm going to ... I'm going to start a little vineyard management business. I'm going to take those profits, I'm going to start leasing my own vineyards. Then I'm going to take those grapes and start making wine. And uh, you know, by  ... You know, and then we'll build up, produce and grow our own grapes and make wine." And Michele said, "That's great. How long is that going to take?" And we were like 22, I'm like, "that's the best part, baby. It's only, like, going to take like ten or 15 years." 

Doug:
(laughs)

John Anthony:
I'm like, "We'll be, like, in our mid to late 30's, we'll be in the wine business. Self sufficient." And she looks at me like, are you ... are you crazy? She was like, "I'm going to go study for my Biology test. Good luck with that." And ... and-

Doug:
So you started leasing grapes. 

John Anthony:
Well, I first started my little vineyard management business, because I had no money to lease.

Doug:
Oh, you did. Yeah, okay.

John Anthony:
Yeah, so I started, I just went out, I waited tables up at Compadres. 

Doug:
And you knew how to run a vineyard because you grew up with your dad, who's a great farmer. 

John Anthony:
Yeah. That's correct. And ... and what I didn't understand was how to run a vineyard management business. But I met with three people that were super, super um, generous with their time. Uh, Mike Walsh, Doug Hill and Oscar Renteria. 

Doug:
Oh, yeah. 

John Anthony:
And Oscar was outrageously generous. Even he set me up with his chart of accounts, helped me understand billing rates, tractor rates, equipment rental rates. 

Doug:
Well, to this day, he is something else. Yeah.

John Anthony:
He gave me his budgets to help use as a framework and ... and uh, just ... And he didn't know me from Adam at time. We've since then ... Now we're dear friends.

Doug:
Interesting. Right. 

John Anthony:
But at the time he was just helping out someone that his dad say, "Hey, this is, uh, good family. Help them out." And he was more than generous. This is how I got my initial framework going. 

Doug:
Um, no, I didn't know that. 

John Anthony:
Yeah.

Doug:
That's cool. By the way, Oscar Renteria is a wonderful guy and an incredibly successful vineyard manager, you know, out of Napa. And his dad-

John Anthony:
Sal.

Doug:
Started it. Sal started it. And uh, another great guy. We got a lot of good people that living around here. Don't we?

John Anthony:
Lot of good people. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Doug:
It's pretty neat.

John Anthony:
Yeah, so I started a little vineyard management business and effectively was like '97, '98.

Doug:
Okay.

John Anthony:
And then started leasing my first little vineyards in '99. Started making wine in '03. Uh, Allison Dorn was our winemaker the first five years. 

Doug:
Okay.

John Anthony:
And then sold our first bottle of wine in like November of 2005. 

Doug:
Now, did you build winery, or ...?

John Anthony:
(laughs) I did. Yeah, yeah. Uh, no. For me it was very important for us to ... I wanted to plant my own vineyards and grow my own grapes. 

Doug:
Right.

John Anthony:
Um, and I realized that was extremely important to the quality, but there was a lot of great, uh, facilities and some of which were set up just for custom crush. Laird Family Estates being one of them.

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
So we made our wine at Laird Family for the first five years. And uh, you know when you first get involved in this with no capital, the idea of having your own winery is just, you know, beyond comprehension. Right? I'm like-

Doug:
It is.

John Anthony:
How do I even pay for my grapes. How do I even buy my barrels.

Doug:
Right.

John Anthony:
It was a ... And there was a point where like one paycheck would go to vineyard development the other paycheck would go to barrels. My wife worked at Rutherford Hill Winery as a special events director. Her ... her ... her, uh, salary paid the ... the ... the rent. You know.

Doug:
Right.

John Anthony:
And that was it. It's all we had.

Doug:
Well, I'm with you. I gotta tell you something, building a winery is just, you know, it'll put you out of business. I mean, unless you've got deep, deep, deep pockets. Especially these days.

John Anthony:
Right.

Doug:
And so uh, good for you. Smart move, man. Smart move. And ... and it hasn't ... hasn't effected anything, has it?

John Anthony:
No. Though, I mean, there's ... With John Anthony, we have a great little tasting room in downtown. 

Doug:
Right.

John Anthony:
And we'll take people on little vineyard tours and tastings. But uh ... But uh, yeah, that ... that ... One day perhaps. I think I figure some people come in with, uh, capital and ... And also, it was easier to do 30, 40 years ago. 

Doug:
Yeah.

John Anthony:
My parents are looking to putting a new winery in and what they're spending just to get their entitlements was about what they spent to get their first winery built, you know. And it's-

Doug:
I know.

John Anthony:
Grape prices have gone up, but they haven't gone up that much. 

Doug:
They ... they haven't. I remember I was talking to your mom about that when she was going for the permit. 
             
Um, so, I gotta ask you this. You ever buy grapes from your folks?

John Anthony:
I have not. 

Doug:
(laughs) 

John Anthony:
I have not, right. And ... and ... and-

Doug:
Oh, come on. You know that I was hoping there'd be a good story there.

John Anthony:
Isn't that crazy? Oh, man. No it was, uh ... Um, yeah, God it was probably a host of ... of reasons for it. But I think one of the main reasons was, uh, I really wanted to grow ... For John Anthony I wanted to grow my own grapes. And so, the grapes all came ... So, all the grapes are going to John Anthony Vineyards, all the vineyards that I selected and farm. 

Doug:
Right.

John Anthony:
And about half the grapes are vineyards that I ... from property that I leased. And half the grapes are vineyards that I planted for other people and then buy the grapes back. 

Doug:
Buy the grapes [inaudible 00:28:14].

John Anthony:
So it's effectively like our estate program, but it was ... in my way of doing it because I couldn't afford to got out and buy the land.

Doug:
Yeah, but they're ... they're your grapes, man. 

John Anthony:
They're my grapes. That's right. My root stock, my row direction, my drippers, my scions, my ... You know, I go out and call Larry Hyde and say, "Hey, I want to ... I love your Selene Sauvignon Blanc, can I select some of the bud wood, uh, for Church Vineyards?"

Doug:
[crosstalk 00:28:31] 

John Anthony:
And uh, just kind of like what my dad did. I just kind of followed that same pattern and just did it on my own.

Doug:
I got that ... I got that same bud wood from Larry. He's the best. 

John Anthony:
Yeah.

Doug:
Well, you know, you've ... you nailed it. Because great quality is what it's all about. You know, we've learned that over 30 plus years here. I mean, if the grapes aren't rocking, and the right grape in the right place and the right root stock, you know, the wines are ... they're going to be good, but if ... to get to that great level, you gotta have that.

John Anthony:
Isn't that true? As a kid, I heard that a lot. And I always figured, oh but there's a black box somewhere in the winery that you can ... you can make it good, right?

Doug:
No.

John Anthony:
And once you begin to realize, after tasting just thousands and thousands of wines, is you realize, like, "Oh, great ... great wines started as great grapes. They've always tasted good."

Doug:
Yeah. And you can see it coming in. You can see it ... You know what it's like. When the first day of fermentation to coming in the door.

John Anthony:
Right.

Doug:
And that's why ... You know, I was lucky enough to be around guys like your dad, who'd farmed for a long time, before I started doing it. And just talking to them. And Larry Hyde was another one. All of a sudden, I'm just like going, "It's a grape. You know, its five tons of Chardonnay, Larry. No big deal." He says, "No, no, no, Doug." And he'd take me out, he'd make me look at them and taste them and walk the vineyard. 
             
And your dad would do the same thing. Because I was like, "I want ... I'm going to need to get some more Merlot. And you know, I'm thinking that top of the hill's the best thing, right Tony?" He goes, "Well, Doug," at that point we liked each other, which was nice. He said, "I know you think that's going to be the best, but let me tell you, on this ranch, you need to be over here," or [inaudible 00:29:54]. "So I want you over here in these ten rows." You know, he steered me right. He was a sweetheart. 

John Anthony:
Nice. 

Doug:
Really cool.
             
So, John Anthony, you've got ... you make some beautiful wines. A bunch of Cabs, some Chards. How many different flavors from John Anthony.

John Anthony:
So, it's ... With John Anthony, when we first started, we started with, uh, Sauvignon Blanc-

Doug:
Okay.

John Anthony:
Syrah, and Cabernet.  And since then we've added a small quantity of Chardonnay, um and also some Merlot. And the main reason we have Merlot is Michele's father had a vineyard that he'd bought and he wanted ... he asked me to lease it and take care of it. And so, it had Merlot on it, so you know, we call it Grandpa's Merlot.

Doug:
Good.

John Anthony:
And it's from Michele's father's place. We'll do, um, you know 100 cases of that or so. But the main [inaudible 00:30:32] for us for sure are our Sauvignon Blanc, we'll do about 1200 cases and we'll do about 3500 cases of John Anthony Cabernet. So, super small production. 

Doug:
Nice. 
             
So it's John ... The name is John Anthony Vineyards.

John Anthony:
That's correct. 

Doug:
Right. And you've got a tasting location in Napa.

John Anthony:
A tasting room in downtown Napa, right. Underneath the Andaz Hotel.

Doug:
Got it.  Okay.
             
So I gotta ask you about Michele. So high school sweethearts? 

John Anthony:
Met in high school. 

Doug:
Okay.

John Anthony:
Uh, started dating our sophomore year in college when we were down at San Diego State. And so ... so yeah, if I ever want to push her buttons, I'll tell her, "Oh, yeah, we're high school sweethearts. We started dating when were like sophomores." And she's like, "Oh, no. Oh, no. That's not true." (laughs) 

Doug:
(laughs)

John Anthony:
So, uh, yeah, I guess college sweethearts. Started dating when we were 19 and dated for seven years and got married in 1998 and then, uh, seven years later, had our first son, Hudson. So we have a 13 year old boy, Hudson. We have a nine year old daughter, Libby and a seven year old daughter, Taylor. So-

Doug:
Super. All right. 

John Anthony:
So yeah, they keep us ... they keep us busy.

Doug:
You're ... You're ... Holy cow. So, next question. You got a really great little ... You know, you've got your own grapes. You've got good grapes. Which these days, is really important to have. You got that locked up. You're making some great wine. You got good traction. You're married to a beautiful woman. You have one to two to three kids. You're in Napa Valley. Things are good. And then, all of a sudden, I guess it was 2007, what the heck happened? How did this thing come about?

John Anthony:
JaM Cellars.

Doug:
JaM Cellars. 

John Anthony:
It was kind of a fun story.

Doug:
I'm like, come on, man. JaM. 

John Anthony:
I know, it's crazy. 

Doug:
So, it's called JaM Cellars. J is for John, M is for Michele. 

John Anthony:
That's correct. JaM is ... Yeah, people-

Doug:
J ... John and Michele. Got it.

John Anthony:
John and Michele, that's where it started. 

Doug:
J A M. 

John Anthony:
That's right. 

Doug:
Very cool.

John Anthony:
So, uh ... So what happened was the recession hit. Right? 2008-

Doug:
2008, yeah.

John Anthony:
And um, and so, uh ... And with John Anthony, we started selling in 2000 ... late 2005. 2006 was our first full year.

Doug:
Okay.

John Anthony:
Things were great. 2007, things were great. First part of 2 ... I'm like, I should've done this ten years ago. I didn't know it was so easy to sell wine. And then, recession hit and I was like ... it just got quiet.

Doug:
Oh, man.  It got real quiet, didn't it?

John Anthony:
It got quiet.

Doug:
Yeah. 

John Anthony:
And I had been out working the market, um, I don't ... I just had to do what my parents did. And so we ... I grew grapes and I was involved in the wine making and I went out and I poured and smiled.

Doug:
Got it.

John Anthony:
And I went to trade tastings and to wine maker dinners. And so I started spending some time out in the market in early 2009, and um, I just realized it was a different world out there. Not like a little different, but like a lot different. Right? Like, in Arizona, you're sitting around tables and they're all drinking your wine with no intention to buy it.

Doug:
Yeah.

John Anthony:
Because it's way too expensive. And they're talking about how their homes are being foreclosed on and ... and it's like Armageddon out there. The last thing they're thinking is buying wine. I'm like, "Why ... why am I even out here." Right? And then you visit the high end wine shops and all the reserve wine's, that's ... they're selling through those. They want less expensive wines, less than $20. The restaurants, they're ... the ones that are still in business, they're seeing the ... they're seeing their covers go from, uh, 150 covers at uh, $75 per person to 75 covers at $35 per person. 

Doug:
It was crazy. I remember, you know, Palm Springs there's a Ritz Carlton about to open and it would just shut down. It was like 90 percent done and they just stopped. 

John Anthony:
Right. 

Doug:
And I think it was kind of boarded up and it sat there for like eight years before they got funding again. Or I remember [inaudible 00:33:46] somewhere like, you know, Colorado or Arizona and there's tumbleweeds rolling through this subdivision that's half built.

John Anthony:
Right.

Doug:
It was frightening. 

John Anthony:
Yeah, so then I was this Vit ... I was at this vintner's, uh, ride along in New York and New Jersey.

Doug:
Okay.

John Anthony:
It was in 2009. You know, Gary's Fine Wine Marketplace?

Doug:
Yeah, Gary's. Yeah, yeah.

John Anthony:
Gary? Yeah, you know Gary. Of course you know Gary. And he there and he had all the vintners there, and he's like, "All y'all need to make less expensive wines. Less than $20." 

Doug:
Oh.

John Anthony:
And I'm thinking to myself, like "All I have is expensive red wine. And about $20 a bottle for cost." 

Doug:
Right.

John Anthony:
It's expensive in Napa. It's just expensive. The grapes are expensive and processing's expensive. 

Doug:
Processing, barrels, the whole thing. 

John Anthony:
And a little small lot, so your costs go way up. 

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John Anthony:
And uh, he ... I tell him to this day, I'm like, "You planted the seed for JaM Cellars in that speech." And I thought to myself, "Okay." I'm like, "The retailers are so lucky. Because they can just switch on dime." I'm like, "I've got all these vineyards, I've got all these grapes, I've got this wine. I can't just change my cost."

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John Anthony:
So fast forward, uh, maybe five months and we had one lot of John Anthony wine that was great, but sometimes it ... sometimes ... sometimes they don't fit ... it doesn't fit in the blend. 

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John Anthony:
Right? You try it and you're like, "It's not bad. It just doesn't fit." 

Doug:
Yeah. 

John Anthony:
And I'm like, I don't want to change my core, um, blend. And so we put it on the bulk market with Ciati. 

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
And normally, at the time, $35 a gallon was like ... that was the going rate. And after a couple weeks, no calls and I needed some cash. And so I call them and I say, "Hey, I'm just curious what's happening on the bulk market." 

Doug:
Yeah.

John Anthony:
And, uh, they said, "Oh, we're ... we have a lot of Napa wines on the bulk market." And I'm like, "Well, like, what ... at what cost? What price?" He's like, "Oh, you can ... give me a ... give me a number. Like, we've got ... we're flooded with bulk wine."

Doug:
Oh, my ... Oh, man.

John Anthony:
And Rob Lloyd was my wine maker at the time. He was, uh, um ... He and I became friends at our first release party, introduced by Oscar Renteria. 

Doug:
Okay.

John Anthony:
And, um ... And, uh ... And so I said, "Well, can you send us all of the bulk wines that you have that are Napa Cabernet less than $20 a gallon." And like five or six cases of wine show up at my doorstep. So I invited Rob over and we lined them all up and, uh, Rob and I were trying through the wines. I'm like, "Oh, this is the problem. These wines are ... Most of these wines are better than the wine we're trying to sell." And some of the wines were like finished Napa Valley product. 

Doug:
Yeah.

John Anthony:
Like $85 bottles of wine you could buy for $18 a gallon, it was the asking price. Right? At that time it was like, the people just didn't want to bottle the wine. Right? They just ... they wanted it off. They wanted it out. And so-

Doug:
Inventory. Because things were backed up.

John Anthony:
That's right.

Doug:
Because they've got the previous year that's bottled and cased and sitting in their warehouse, or that's sitting in the distributors warehouse.

John Anthony:
Right. 

Doug:
And it's not moving.

John Anthony:
Right.

Doug:
So the last thing you want to do is start the bottling machine and case up a bunch more wine. 

John Anthony:
That's right.

Doug:
Got it. I could see that. 

John Anthony:
So, I'm here telling Rob, I'm like uh ... I'm like, "You know what this means. This is ... This means it's a horrible time to sell wine on the bulk market. But it's a great time to buy wine." Rob quickly says, "Yeah, but you have no money." I'm like, "Right. But what I do have is this 2500 gallons of wine I'm trying to sell. And maybe ... maybe this is just so we should make ... I should make a second project." 

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
And so, I'm like, there's my $20 Cabernet. And we always knew we would pivot from Napa Valley Cabernet to ... to something else. Wethought we'd have another three or four ... Looking at the amount of wine we could buy, we thought we'd have three or four years of that run. 

Doug:
Of Napa Valley bulk wine. 

John Anthony:
At Napa Valley. And uh, so then came the name. And we were ... I was struggling to find some cool name. I'm looking at the thesaurus and trying to brainstorm and finally Rob calls me up-

Doug:
I know that drill by the way. 

John Anthony:
Oh, my God. Finally Rob calls me up, he's like, "Dude, you're making it too complicated." He's like, "Just call it JaM, short for John and Michele." I'm like, "Oh." Name was available, trademarked it, done. 

Doug:
Boom.

John Anthony:
Sometimes the best ideas are the ones that are just obvious and simple, right. So, yeah, I totally give Rob credit for that.

Doug:
So this was 2009.

John Anthony:
This is now 2009. Fourth quarter 2009. 

Doug:
Yeah. Which was brutal.

John Anthony:
So, we bottle up 1000 cases of ... of JaM Cabernet. And um-

Doug:
Retail price?

John Anthony:
Uh, it was $19.99.

Doug:
$19.99. Just like Gary said.

John Anthony:
Yeah, so 120 FOB. Yup. $19.9 ... Oh, totally. Hey-

Doug:
I gotta call Gary. I'm going to call him after this. 

John Anthony:
Oh, totally. I don't make these very difficult. $19.99? Less than $20. $19.99 sounds like the number, right. 
             
And so, we released a 1000 cases and it was gone like in three weeks. And it shipped through and people loved it. And I was like, "Oh." And uh-

Doug:
And were you using ... How you were selling it with your distributors that you already had?

John Anthony:
That's correct.

Doug:
You were already with John Anthony?  Okay, that's ... that's nice.

John Anthony:
That's correct. That's correct. We had the benefit of the John Anthony ... And ... and we have great relationships with them. And they were still selling John Anthony wines. We actually had incr ... We had actually growing sales during those years, but we just weren't selling as much as I wanted to sell. I had more inventory than sales.

Doug:
Oh, they probably ... they probably jumped this and just went crazy. 

John Anthony:
Yeah, because we had a great relationship with them. Like, "Oh, finally. Great." And ... and when you look at the labels, it's the same font that ... JaM Cellars font and kind of image was born from John Anthony, but it's fun, playful-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John Anthony:
Uh, youthful. John Anthony's a little more conservative and you know.

Doug:
Sure.

John Anthony:
And uh ... And so, we ... This was the fun part with JaM. So we, um ... So we had the JaM Cabernet, uh, 2000 ... And we started selling that in fourth quarter 2009. 

Doug:
Right.

John Anthony:
That same year, I had a client that couldn't sell his Chardonnay. And his grapes. So I was-

Doug:
His grapes.

John Anthony:
His grapes. And I was the vineyard manager, so he asked me to help sell them. And normally, two or three phone calls you find a home for 15 tons. 

Doug:
Yes. Yeah.

John Anthony:
So I call ... I call all the ... I call all the standard Chardonnay people. This is what was kind of fun. I call Frank Family, I call Ron Bower, I call John Williams at Frog's Leap.

Doug:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

John Anthony:
You know, Raymond ... And every single one of them said the same thing. If you find a home for your 15 tons, let me know, I've got 200 tons looking for a home, I got 400 tons looking for a home. And began to realize, like-

Doug:
God, what a ... what a different ... I forget ... You know, we always forget the tough times. You know, compared to what's going on today, where you just -

John Anthony:
Right.

Doug:
Growers can ... are naming their prices, if those of you don't know. 

John Anthony:
That's right.

Doug:
So this was totally different. Okay. So 15-

John Anthony:
And so I could not find a home for the grapes.

Doug:
Oh.

John Anthony:
And so finally, I go to the grower and say, "Well, two options. One is you let the grapes rot on the vine. Second option is that we can bring it in, and we can make some bulk wine out of it. And um ... and we can, um ... We'll recoup your costs. Either way, your farming costs are sunk. We'll get some of your production cost back."

Doug:
At last get ... At least get your cost so you stay in business for the next year. 

John Anthony:
That's right. 

Doug:
That's the ... That's my goal.

John Anthony:
And he said, "So, you're telling me to ... to make 25, I've got to invest another ten?" I'm like, "Yeah, pretty much. That's what I'm telling you." (laughs) 

Doug:
That's why it's going to cost more to make. 

John Anthony:
And so ... right. And so, he's like "Okay let's do it." And so, uh, I was making wine over Folio, which is pretty special in and of itself. This is when Michael Mondavi owned, uh, the old Carneros Creek Winery. 

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
Out in ... Of Dealy Lane. And it was pretty special making, uh, wine there because, as a child, my parents first winery they sold to was Carneros Creek Winery with Frank Mahoney. 

Doug:
With Frank Mahoney, who was a great guy. Oh, man. 

John Anthony:
And my first memories of the wine industry were sitting there watching that cork screw. As a kid, you watch those cork screws go and it's like, "How's that thing move the grapes. It doesn't even move." It was mesmerizing. 

Doug:
Yeah [crosstalk 00:39:55]. The screw ... the screw conveyor.

John Anthony:
The screw conveyor, right. 

Doug:
It moves the grapes down near the crusher [inaudible 00:39:59], yeah.

John Anthony:
Yeah, we'd be there because my parents would pick on the weekends, so we'd be there late at night and lights were on and you know-

Doug:
It is mesmerizing watching that thing. I remember that. 

John Anthony:
It is mesmerizing. Especially like, for a kid. 

Doug:
Yeah.

John Anthony:
And so it was so fascinating making wine back at Folio again. We had moved out of Laird, at the time.

Doug:
Okay.

John Anthony:
And moved over to, uh, um, Folio. And, uh, Rob was our consulting wine maker. 

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
And ... and um, so, um-

Doug:
So you're making Chardonnay. Well, so you brought the Chardonnay in there.

John Anthony:
So, we're bringing the Chardonnay in as a ... as a bulk wine project. And I remember Rob was asking me, uh, "Hey, what are you going to ... what are you going to do with that?" I'm like, "Oh, I want to make like a ... you know, like a Le Crema, Rombauer style wine. Like rich, creamy, smooth Chardonnay."

Doug:
Yeah.

John Anthony:
It's like an R&D project. 

Doug:
Easy drink ... easy drinking. 

John Anthony:
Yeah, easy drink. And then we're just sell it for bulk market, get my client his money back. Like a research and development project. And uh, and Rob says, "Yeah." He's like, "I worked for Jess, I work for Kerner." He's like ... because Rob was the wine maker at Rombauer prior to leaving.

Doug:
Okay.

John Anthony:
And he left Rombauer 2008, started his own brand called Lloyd and started doing some consulting. And I started working with him in 2009 as a consultant. Before that, he worked with Jess Jackson at Le Crema as like an assistant wine maker. So he understood that process very well.

Doug:
He knows how to make that. 

John Anthony:
And ... and ... and ... and it's so funny. So grapes are coming in, he's like, "Yeah, but you need the little barrels for that. You know that's not the way ... it's not really the way it works." I'm like, "Yeah, but look man, we know what the finishing chemistry needs to be. So we know what all our adds, we know what you used to use. We know what, um, [inaudible 00:41:17]" I'm like, "Oops, going to be an issue. I get that because we don't have those little barrels, but we'll figure that out." And Rob was like, "Who's we?" I'm like, "Me and you buddy. WE'll figure it out." 

Doug:
(laughs)

John Anthony:
And I love that to this day, I still give him a bad time. He's like, "Okay, um, this will be your fist tank of wine. Uh, Rob, your buddy, I'm your buddy who's going to help you out. I'm not your wine maker. I'll help you out. So you'll get the analysis. I'll help ... I'll help give you some direction, but this is going to be your first tank of wine." I'm like, "Okay, that's cool."

Doug:
Wow.

John Anthony:
So we make his wine right. And ... and fast forward ... The wine's sitting in tank. Fast forward to April 2010, now.

Doug:
Right.

John Anthony:
And we're down at Pebble Beach Food and Wine. We had John Anthony, we'd released JaM and there was a lot of energy about JaM early on. And Scott Lewis from V Wine Cellars ... Do you know Scott?

Doug:
Yeah, I know Scott.

John Anthony:
So, he was down there and he was having a good time and he comes over to my table and I, um ... AT that time I had John Anthony on the table and JaM under the table. Today it's the opposite. We have John Anthony on ... We have JaM on the table and John Anthony under the table. 

Doug:
So which JaM wine? Was it just the Cab or was it the Chardonnay?

John Anthony:
He had ... At the time, it was just the Cabernet he was selling.

Doug:
Cabernet. 

John Anthony:
If we hadn't released ... We didn't even have a Chardonnay at the time.

Doug:
Okay.

John Anthony:
So, we're down at Pebble Beach and Scott Lewis comes over and he says, "Man, my guys love selling that JaM Cabernet. That's just a cool project." He's like, "You work with Rob, right? The guy that used to work for Rombauer? Long hair, blond, kind of surfer looking guy?" 

Doug:
Yeah.

John Anthony:
I'm like, "Oh, yeah. That's our ... that's our ... that's our good friend and ... and wine maker." And he says, "You guys should do a white wine. Call it Butter." I'm like, "Oh..."-

Doug:
Scott Lew ... Scott ... That's where it came from? 

John Anthony:
Oh, yeah. Scott Lewis.

Doug:
Scott Lewis. 

John Anthony:
Oh, yeah, totally. I give him credit all the time, right. 

Doug:
How nice of you to give him credit. 

John Anthony:
I see ... I see him ... Oh, oh, totally. 

Doug:
By the way, this is a Pebble Beach Wine Festival they have every spring down there and a bunch of wineries ... Great food and wine festival. So you're pouring for the folks. 

John Anthony:
So, like ... So I ... So I go back, I'm like, "Oh, we have that tank of wine." So I go back and .. and, uh, I don't have any money to hire a trademark attorney, so I just did my own trademark stuff.  So I go-

Doug:
But ... question though. Did you like ... When he said Butter, did something ... a bell go off in your head? Or were you like, "Oh, yeah, right. I'm not going to do that."

John Anthony:
Both. Uh, the bell went off in my head because I'm like, "Oh, yeah, JaM and Butter, that's cute." And then the bell also went off because it was now 2010 and I wasn't too proud to sell wine. It was hard to sell wine. 

Doug:
Right. Okay. Got it. 

John Anthony:
So if that same thing would've been presented to me in 2007, I'd been like, "Ah, I'm not going to do that. I do high end Cabernet, Napa Valley. I'm not going to ... I don't do that." 

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
But, maybe because Rob and I started spending more time together, I started drinking more Chardonnay, enjoying those styles, I ... I knew I had this tank of wine that I was making, I was like, "Oh, interesting." 
             
And so then, uh, I went back to my, uh, little hotel room and uh, the trademark was available, so I registered the trademark because I didn't ... I couldn't ... I didn't have no money for an attorney, and I just did it myself. And uh-

Doug:
It's just Butter. Just Butter. Butter for ... Butter for wine.

John Anthony:
Butter for wine. Yeah. 

Doug:
Got it. 

John Anthony:
And uh, so then I talked to Rob, I'm like, "Hey," I told Rob the story about Scott and Rob's like, uh "Hey you thinking what I'm thinking? We should take that tank of wine we're working on?" I'm like, "We? Who's we, man?" And he went, "Oh, yeah, of course, right?" 

Doug:
(laughs)

John Anthony:
So ... So yeah, so Rob's been involved with, uh, JaM from the early days. 

Doug:
Well, that's great.

John Anthony:
And he ... he was making the wine with us through 2013. And then the scale just got too big and we ... in 2014 we hired a full time wine maker to oversee all the production. 
             
But Butter as a ... it was a, from the very ... But it wasn't from the very beginning. The first two vintages, we did 1000 cases. And then in 2008 ... I'm sorry, 2009 and '10 we did 1000 cases. 2011 we did 8000 cases. And then from there, it just went on this tear. We went to 23000, 56000, 145000, 450000 and then in 2016, we produced 850000 cases of wine because we kept running out of wine every single year. 

Doug:
With just Butter or all the wine?

John Anthony:
Just Butter. Just Butter. 

Doug:
850000 cases of Chardonnay, Butter. 

John Anthony:
Crate to bottle. No bulk wine. We brought in ... That year we brought in like 11000 tons of Chardonnay. 

Doug:
Okay. I gotta ask you. Where are you getting the fruit? All over?

John Anthony:
Yeah.

Doug:
You must be. 

John Anthony:
We started off ... As I mentioned earlier today, I was down in Clarksburg.

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
We got introduced ... Agajanian Vineyards and uh-

Doug:
I know those guys.

John Anthony:
You know Rick and, uh Gary?

Doug:
Yeah, yeah. 

John Anthony:
Yup. 

Doug:
Yeah I know Rick.

John Anthony:
And they introduced us to some growers down in Clarksburg. And it's nice because you can get high tonnages, and it's a little cooler at night. It's not like Napa cool or Russian River cool-

Doug:
Right.

John Anthony:
But it's cooler than, like, Lodi and Central Valley. And so we started buying grapes there. Uh, so today, we get probably about ... Uh, we get grapes from Clarskburg, we get grapes from Mendocino, we get grapes from Paso Robles, we get grapes from Santa Barbara. Um, a little from Lodi, but not a lot. We get most of them from Clarksburg as much ... much more. And um ... And it helps having these different areas because we ... we can't bring all the grapes into one facility.

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
We have multiple facilities we bring the grapes to. 

Doug:
I was going to say so where do you make it. You're making it at numerous places. 

John Anthony:
Yeah, we work with, um, we work with, you know, wineries from Mendocino ... It's five different production facilities we work with. And then we bring everything to LangeTwins to ... for bottling, there near Lodi. 

Doug:
So, basically, 2011, 2012, 1000 cases. Here it is 2018, five or six years later, you're making 850000 cases. 

John Anthony:
That's correct.

Doug:
And probably making more. You kept making more because you kept running out. 

John Anthony:
That's correct. People say, "Well, how'd you ... how'd you know how to go so big?" And it's like, well, every year we kept running out so ... If you run out in six months, it's easy to double. 

Doug:
Let's make some more.

John Anthony:
Yeah, because you want to ... And so, the reason we made so much in 2016 is we need to actually build ourselves a little bit of a cushion. 

Doug:
John, this is absolutely phenomenal. 

John Anthony:
It's crazy. If you look-

Doug:
It's ... It's crazy. 

John Anthony:
It's nuts. It's like over-

Doug:
I mean, can ... How can I ... I want to get on board. Can you hire me? (laughs)

John Anthony:
It's so ... it's so ... Man it's so crazy. Like, I looked recently, over 12-

Doug:
I mean this is nuts. 

John Anthony:
Over $12, we're the number, uh, three selling Chardonnay in America. There's VR Chardonnay number one, Le Crema's number two and then Butter Chardonnay. I did some math late ... at the end of ... At the end of the year, I did some math and we look at the wine that we shipped last year. And no one's ... no one's, uh ... no one's storing Butter. Everyone drinks Butter, right. It's not a wine you store.

Doug:
Right.

John Anthony:
And I did the math on it. And it comes out to ten bottles a minute are consumed, Butter Chardonnay. Ten bottles every minute. 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. 

Doug:
Oh. 

John Anthony:
It's crazy. 

Doug:
Oh. (laughs) 

John Anthony:
(laughs) ten bottles a minute.

Doug:
I'm a little speechless. 
             
All right, well I've got some ... I've got a fun fact that you probably know about. Of the top 30 selling Chardonnay's in the country, Butter was the number one fastest growing domestic Chardonnay across all price segments in 2017. Way to go, man.
             
So, boom. So this thing is exploded. You're still doing John Anthony.

John Anthony:
Yup.

Doug:
I'll ask about that later, but meanwhile ... but the JaM's line has ... has grown. So you've got the monster Chardonnay Butter, you've got Cabernet. 

John Anthony:
Correct.

Doug:
I hate ... I'm kind of hesitant to ask how many cases of Cab? 

John Anthony:
Oh, no you can ask. We, uh ... With JaM Cabernet, we'll do like 50000 cases.

Doug:
Oh, okay.

John Anthony:
So still a super, healthy, respectable brand. 

Doug:
(laughs)

John Anthony:
It's ... We only say we've got seven SKU's in distribution and one of them is total outlier.

Doug:
Got it.

John Anthony:
The other of them are just like ... they're good SKU's, they perform well, people like the wines. For some reason, Butter hit this like seam in the universe and it's just, uh-

Doug:
Okay.

John Anthony:
It's the unicorn. It's like, okay.

Doug:
Well you have that. And you've got Toast Sparkling wine.

John Anthony:
Toast, our sparling, that's correct. 

Doug:
Which is a great name. And you've got ... Can we talk about the new one?

John Anthony:
Yeah, absolutely. 

Doug:
And ... because it's just rolling out at Bottle Rock, right?

John Anthony:
It's just ... it's ... Yeah, we actually released in on Valentine's Day. And you're referring to California Candy, our Rose. We started off doing 7000 cases. It's a grenache out of, uh, Paso Robles, uh, Grenache-syrah blend out of Paso Robles. And it's a dry Rose. 

Doug:
Nice. 

John Anthony:
Uh, the name throws people off a little bit. They expect it to be sweet. 

Doug:
Sweet.

John Anthony:
And we're like, well, we want the name to be provocative and grab your attention and, uh, the product has to stand on it's own. 

Doug:
And is everyone ... You know, everywhere I go, I was just in London, they're saying "do you make a Rose?" I said, "No." They said, "Well, we can sell a lot of Rose." I said, "Well, okay." So ... You're timing's great on that one. 

John Anthony:
Yeah, we actually ... I actually came up with the name like, I don't know, like seven or eight years ago. And it ... And we couldn't find a product for it to go into. And finally, we're like, "Oh, maybe that's our, uh ... maybe that's our Rose." 
             
And ... and everything we do is a little bit ... Like with JaM Cellars, it's kind of light hearted, it's fun, it's uh ... We're very serious about the wine making, but we want the names to be approachable and easy and not intimidating and um ... You know, we forget how it kind of ... Here in the wine industry we're so caught up into it, we forget how intimidating it an be.
             
And so, yeah, it took a little bit of courage to put those names on a bottle of wine (laughs), especially my mom and dad's. Like they were just very, very traditional, classical, you know put your name on a bottle of wine. That's what you put. 

Doug:
Well, my hat's ... my hat's off to you because you've struck a chord. You've struck a chord. And you know, Butter's leading the charge and you've the Butter bus. Tell me about the Butter bus, which is really cool. Looks like a ... a rock band's bus. 

John Anthony:
It is. It was Alan Jackson's old star coach. 

Doug:
(laughs)

John Anthony:
And ... and what I've learned ... I've learned a lot about buses. There's tour buses and then there's star coaches. And when you've made it, you don't actually ... you don't ... You fly from place to place-

Doug:
I see.

John Anthony:
And your star coach is there waiting for you. 

Doug:
I see. Okay.

John Anthony:
And so, uh, yeah, so how that happened, we have ... Uh, Jeff Whitman leads all of our, uh, distribution sales. And it was probably like four years ago, he's ... he's, uh, hopping on a red eye and ... and uh, we were bantering. I'm like, "Yeah, somehow it came up, like, we need a ... we just need to get a bus so you can hop on the bus and like go around and ... and do all your, uh, all of your meetings on the bus. Right. Kind of like John Madden does." 

Doug:
Right. Right. 

John Anthony:
And, uh, and so we were kind of bantering around it. And then we start thinking, hey this is actually an interesting idea. Because we can put our  ... our logos on the side of it, and uh ... And we didn't know how popular it would be, but ... So we ... we went ... we found a bus in, of all places, Nashville, is like the place you go. That's like the bus central. 

Doug:
That's where ... Makes ... makes sense. 

John Anthony:
I found this great bus, it was black and so it worked perfect. We put our Butter logos on the side of it and it's ginormous. It's, you know, 45 fee long and 12 feet ... no 14 feet tall and ... And, uh we us it for a couple things now. We use it for, uh, trade tastings. 

Doug:
Okay.

John Anthony:
So, our distributors now we're with ... WE started off with all the small distributors, now we're with some of the larger distributors. And they'll hold great trade tastings. We just park the bus out in front of the hotel. And I remember the uh, the ... We have a ... we call it ... We have a captain of the bus. Dave Taylor is our ... the ... the driver. 

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
He's like, "John, they don't let us park in front of the hotels." I'm like, "Dave, have $2000 of cash and just keep putting hundreds down until they say yes."  (laughs)

Doug:
(laughs)

John Anthony:
Just keep-

Doug:
And it works, doesn't it?

John Anthony:
He's like, "It only just takes like $100. A lot of times, they'll just let you park it there anyway." I'm like, "Right." 
             
And so what's great is you park this bus out in front of the trade tasting, as as everyone's walking by to come in-

Doug:
Yeah. 

John Anthony:
Like you've already ,,, Everyone [inaudible 00:50:41] ... We have our little table like everyone else, but they have to walk by the bus. Right? And so-

Doug:
On their way in. 

John Anthony:
You see all the other suppliers walking in going like, "Oh, man. You guys. You guys with the bus."

Doug:
You guys again.

John Anthony:
You guys with the bus. (laughs) 
             
The other thing that's been fun, now, is we use it ... We do, uh, tailgates. And so every year, we're at the Michigan, Michigan State game. And .. and R&DC brings all of their, uh, sales teams, what 85 reps there and we have a barbecue and we have the Butter bus there and we go to the game and-

Doug:
[inaudible 00:51:04] tailgate. 

John Anthony:
And so we'll do tailgates. And then, um, we do also, uh, like uh, little tours where, um, we'll uh go in stores and do tastings. But that's ... that's definitely tertiary. The first two are the main ... the main uses for it.

Doug:
Main things. Well, that's a great idea. You're killing it again. 

John Anthony:
I mean people talk about the darn bus and so, uh, the first thing-

Doug:
No it's good. Well, and then here's one more. You've got, besides John Anthony Vineyards tasting room in Napa, you've got another one. You've got the JaM Cellars-

John Anthony:
That's correct.

Doug:
On First Street. And it's not just wine tasting, it's music and wine. 

John Anthony:
That's correct. 

Doug:
Tell me about that. You've got music a few nights a week?

John Anthony:
We do, yeah. So, every, um, every Thursday and Friday we have live music. And uh, the idea behind that was um ... You know JaM started off as a bunch of virtual, uh, virtual wining, in a sense that it was still grape to bottles. We didn't buy bulk wine, we bought the grapes-

Doug:
You're buying the grapes. 

John Anthony:
And ... and made the wine to our spec. And um, people always asked where were located. And we are very much a Napa company. I mean, all of our employees live in Napa, except the outside sales people, and offices are in Napa, my wife and I live in Napa. And uh, so just thought, well it would be nice to have a tasting room in Napa. And it just so happened that one opened ... a spot opened up right next to John Anthony.
             
So, there's the Andaz hotel, we have John Anthony on the right hand side, we have JaM Cellars on the left hand side. 

Doug:
That's nice.

John Anthony:
And so it makes it so easy to-

Doug:
It makes it easy for everybody. 

John Anthony:
Everything. 

Doug:
Yeah.

John Anthony:
And then the question was what was the theme. And we opened in, uh, 2016 and we've been involved with Bottle Rock for a couple of years, we realized they synergy between music and our brand. We're like, oh, we'll make it more kind of a music themed place. And so we have a little, uh, recording studio that was initially designed for doing podcasts, exactly what we're doing. That was the initial concept of the recording studio. And ... and then you bite the, "Oh, yeah, John, just for an extra couple dollars you can make it a recording studio." Well, I'm looking what we have here today, what we have is way more involved than this. We should've just got you know, what we have here today. Been fine for podcasts.

Doug:
(laughs)

John Anthony:
And so we have a little recording studio. And then we started doing live music once every ... It was like once a week on Fri ... Once a month on Friday. 

Doug:
Right.

John Anthony:
Then we went to every Fridays, then we added Thursdays. It's just local.

Doug:
Yeah, local performers. 

John Anthony:
Uh, uh local artists come in. 

Doug:
Were you a music guy as a kid.

John Anthony:
I always loved music, but I'm not a musician and uh-

Doug:
You're not a mu ... Okay.

John Anthony:
You know, and like ... And some people are like, when it comes to being music lovers, they're ten out of ten, they've been to 150 concerts and I'm not that hard core. But I ... but I love music.

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
But, probably like a lot of people do. 

Doug:
Well, so I was curious because you never know when someone says, "Yeah, you know, I played ... I played lead guitar," and you ... and they start playing and it's like, "Oh my gosh, you're really, really good." 

John Anthony:
Right. Yeah, I wish I had that talent. 

Doug:
Yeah, me too.

John Anthony:
I can ... I can ... I can identify it, but I can't produce it. You know, I can ... 
             
So yeah, so we opened that in, uh, 2016 and that's been a ... a neat addition, um, as well. 

Doug:
So how do, uh ... How do you balance it? You've got two very different brands. So you're working ... you've got one leg in each of them probably. You're straddling it, you're tap dancing. It's um ... How do you ... How do you do it?

John Anthony:
Well, we ... Kind of like I said, we've got ... we've got four business, right. I still have my vineyard management business. 

Doug:
Oh (laughs) 

John Anthony:
But I don't oversee that anymore. I hired someone to oversee it. But ... but we like that because we ... we ... The vineyard management business, because we still work some of the top, uh, wine makers here in the valley. So we still farm for some of the top folks. 

Doug:
Well, that's nice because you see ... you keep a ... you keep your finger in there and you hear what's going on.

John Anthony:
Yeah. Absolutely. Right? 

Doug:
Some of the latest stuff, right.

John Anthony:
And they're ... and they're ... because they're pushing the edge and then so we ... we can constantly learn things that I can take and apply in other areas.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John Anthony:
Uh, we um, we farm about, uh for ourselves, about 100 acres here and then the 150 acres in Clarksburg. So we have a couple hundred acres of vineyards that we farm. 

Doug:
Right.

John Anthony:
And so I've got a team of folks that oversee the farming side. And then on the ... on the wine side, we don't really ... You're absolutely right in that we've got a small production, high end brand and then a ... a larger volume, uh, $15 brand. But we really kind of use a portfolio because the ... it's uh ... um ... they each have their own places that makes a ton of sense. 

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John Anthony:
And so like, if I go on the road, I usually end up doing like a wine maker dinner with John Anthony, John Anthony, JaM bottles are in the bag and ... and some accounts that you think are just natural accounts for JaM, end up being John Anthony accounts and vice versa. 

Doug:
Right. 

John Anthony:
It's so hard to second guess what you think would ... One of our best, uh, accounts in Florida is the Ritz Carlton for Butter. They love it. They just ... they sell a ton of Butter at Ritz Carlton. I would've thought, oh that should be a John Anthony Sauvignon Blanc, high end [inaudible 00:55:03] clone, Church Vineyard, Carneros. 

Doug:
Right, right. 

John Anthony:
Butter. They love Butter. Other places we walk in and think, oh this is gotta be a JaM Cellars account, "Oh, I love that John Anthony Cabernet. That's great. Put that on the list." 

Doug:
So John, we've got the Butter Chardonnay which is, you know, just awesome. You got the, JaM Cab, with the JaM butter Chard, you got the JaM Cab. You got the, JaM Toast Sparkling Wine, you got the new product Candy-
John: 
California Candy. Yup.

Doug:
Rosé. California Candy. Which sounds great. It's a dry rosé. What else is going on? Anything new coming down the pipe?
John: 
Yeah. We're gonna be launching cans.

Doug:
Wait, wait, wait. Cans?
John: 
Cans, yeah, right. 

Doug:
Like-
John: 
I mean, who would ever think we would put wine in cans?

Doug:
Okay. Cans. Got it.
John: 
And uh, we're gonna start with Butter Chardonnay. We were gonna do this project a couple years ago. And we started looking at it and uh, a friend of mine said, "Well you're having such success. With the 750 milliliters and you still have so much work to do on that. Why distract yourself with cans?"

Doug:
Right.
John: 
And, maybe the entrepreneur in me was like, "Because I wanna do it! I think it's gonna be interesting." Right? And...

Doug:
(laughs)
John: 
... but I thought about what he said and I'm like, "He's right." You know, and this concept came to me that is like, brand before can. There's a lot of canned companies out there but they're can wine companies they're not strong brands that are putting themselves in cans. And so, I'm like, "Okay he's right." The team was kinda relieved like, okay great. Cause, I promised the team we'll never be bored. Like, oh my god, you're right. We're never bored. 
And so we, uh, we made a decision to wait on cans and my approach to cans, was gonna be, there's a ... a van here that I like to call the can van. And for small lots you can hire them to ... and I'm like, okay, so we have the can design. We're gonna do a 250 milliliter, so same size as a, it's like a Red Bull can. 

Doug:
Right. 
John: 
With like the Butter logo on it. And it comes in a four pack. And we were just gonna do some samples to give away to distributors. To give to our friends. See if we liked it.

Doug:
Yeah. 
John: 
You know. If we think it's a good idea. 

Doug:
Yeah. Test the market.
John: 
Test the market. We started showing pictures to our distributors of these cans. They're like, "We'll take em, we'll take a 1,000 cases."

Doug:
(laughs)
John: 
I'm like, "No, no. We don't wanna sell you the wine. We just wanna give you some samples. See if you like it." They're like, "We like it. We want it. Don't give it to us. Let us buy it." 
And, and "No no no no, we're just gonna give you samples. Like, we're not actually ... I'm not even sure if I wanna do this shit." Like, I'm like, I'm not, this is my, I might not like it. And they're like, "Don't. The market wants it." 
And so, uh, [Jeff Witlow 00:02:20] who was looking at our sales, was talking to, uh, a gentleman who's responsible for a lot of the purchasing of a large grocery chain, showed him the picture, he's like, "Oh, if you produce that, I'll put those in stacks in every supermarket in Southern California." And so I said, "Maybe there's, maybe there's something here. Maybe we shouldn't make a test market." And so I asked my team, I said, "Go out and do a soft circle about if we had cans available mid-summer-

Doug:
Right. 
John: 
... "what each of your distributors would wanna buy." And they came back with a demand of 50,000 cases of cans. And a case of cans is like a six liter equivalent. 

Doug:
Got it. 
John: 
24 cans is six liters. So it's like, 2/3 of a-

Doug:
2/3 of a normal case. Right. 
John: 
2/3 of a normal ... So, 50,000 cases of six liter equivalents and I was like, "Oh, that's way beyond the test." Like, we actually need to go into production. So then we started doing the research of who actually does this. How do you scale it up? 

Doug:
Yeah. 
John: 
... it's like, it's like, reinventing the wheel, man. It's not, it's like totally, different. It's-

Doug:
It's not like putting wine in a bottle. 
John: 
No. It's not.

Doug:
Oh I bet. 
John: 
Because you've got liners, you have shelf life, you have born on dates. It's non vintage. So the vintage of the can will always be the same vintage as the bottle. But you don't, cause, you, you have to keep it fresh. It's about freshness.

Doug:
So, it is about ... So basically the thing with a can compared to a bottle with a cork or screw cap, it doesn't, it doesn't last. 
John: 
Uh, it's probably like 12 to 18 months. Well yeah. 

Doug:
12 ... a case. 
John: 
I would suggest Butter's best in 12 to 18 months but if you have a three year old bottle of Butter's, it's not, it's probably not bad. It's just-

Doug:
Right. It's just-
John: 
We're-

Doug:
Yeah, but cans are gonna get drunk in three months. Easy.
John: 
That's right. 

Doug:
Easy. 
John: 
And so, uh, so we're gonna do our first bottling early July. We'll ship in late July and we'll see what the can business ... Who knows. I mean, there's a lot of enthusiasm around it. Which is, you know, I kind of, again, I had to get over the comfort level of putting Butter on a bottle of wine.

Doug:
Right. 
John: 
And I'm like, "Oh, put em in cans. Well, you know. It's, market's telling us they want something. Maybe we should listen." 

Doug:
Okay so, so when we get off the air, here. I wanna talk to you about getting involved. I want in. 
John: 
(laughs)

Doug:
I want in. 
John: 
(laughs) I love it. All right.

Doug:
Alright ...

Doug:
You know, thanks for coming in today. I mean, yeah, this was a lot of fun on the podcast, but man, I was dying to hear all this stuff anyway, so it's ... it feels so good to get caught up. And uh, I will see you, uh ... I'll be running around at BottleRock in a few weeks. So-

John Anthony:
I love it. I love it.

Doug:
Hope to see you then.

John Anthony:
Yeah, we've got a ... we've got our JaM pad, so uh, reach out and make sure you guys get some wrist bands so you can come in and you can, uh, enjoy some, uh, you know JaM Cabernet and Butter Chardonnay. 

Doug:
I'm ... I'm definitely going to check it out. 

John Anthony:
Right on.

Doug:
I gotta see what's going on.

John Anthony:
Thanks Doug.

Doug:
Thanks John.

John Anthony:
You bet.

Doug:
Good seeing you.

Full Transcript

Doug:
So, hey, Doug Shafer here, back, uh, with another episode of The Taste. And, uh, with me is a, a good friend who I haven't seen in a while, so I'm glad he's here. Uh, Marc Mondavi ... Welcome Marc, good to see you. 

Marc:
Thank you Doug. It's a pleasure. 

Doug:
Yeah. And I was thinking about you this morning, or last night, knowing we were going to do this. And I was thinking, you know, I-I don't know if you remember that I, when I first met you, I got to know you really well, was working on the wine auction back in '85, '86, '87. Do you remember those days? 

Marc:
That was the fun days of the wine auction. It's a little more serious today. 

Doug:
It's very organized and very serious, but this is back, this is, this is the, uh, wine auction Napa Valley, which happens in June. Raises lots of money for local charities and, uh ... But back in the early days ... It's been going on 25 years at least I think. 

Marc:
30 ... 

Doug:
30. 

Marc:
35. 

Doug:
Yeah. And, um, but it was kind of a ragtag group of vintners and volunteers and farmers who had all just taken a couple weeks off and throw, throw this big party together. And I remember being on wine service with Bob Pepe and trying to stage wine and collect wine. And you were doing logistics, I think, with, uh ...

Marc:
Logistics, security and transportation. 

Doug:
That's right, you did security. (Laughs) 

Marc:
Yeah. Now it's, now it's three separate or four separate committees.
But remember security coming in the door was Howard from, uh ... Oh, it wasn't Tra Vigne, it was ... What was Tra Vigne before it was Tra Vigne? 

Marc:
Oh, Howard, uh, uh ... 

Doug:
The maitre'D ... 

Marc:
Yeah, yeah. 

Doug:
Howard, he was piat-, no he with Don Giovanni forever ... 

Marc:
Right. 

Doug:
But he was the security, so he was out there by himself in a, in a chair, right? At the entrance to Meadowood, right? And if you didn't have a ticket he wouldn't let you in, which ... So people would just be (Laughs) be ... I heard people used to give him a six-pack of beer or bottle of wine, he'd say, "Just go on in." (Laughs) 

Marc:
(Laughs) 

Doug:
That was our security. 

Marc:
It was fun. It was ... Quasi-organized and quasi-disorganized but believe it or not everything got done. 

Doug:
I think it was amazing. 

Marc:
Yeah. 

Doug:
But that's when I first got to know you.

Marc:
But we didn't make the money they do today. 

Doug:
That's true. But we, but we had fun doing it. 

Marc:
But we got them on the way. 

Doug:
Yeah. So, going back I, I wanna ... If you don't mind, I'd love to get a quickie, because you were born here in Napa Valley ...

Marc:
Born and raised, St. Helena hospital. 

Doug:
St. Helena hospital, but, but before you came along, you know, your family history ... Can you give me a quickie? You know, grandparents and the whole thing? 

Marc:
Well, they immigrated from Italy to Minnesota, and they spent 1906 to 1922 ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). 

Marc:
In Minnesota. And then got into the grape shipping business for home wine-making. 

Doug:
Right. 

Marc:
Which, back then was big, and believe it or not today it's still very big. You know, I mean, a lot of people like to make their ...

Doug:
Like their home wine ...

Marc:
Barrel of wine ...

Doug:
Yeah. 

Marc:
And it's legal to make 200 gallons for every head in their household. 

Doug:
You, you got it. 

Marc:
And, uh, still is. It was legal during prohibition. So that's how it got its start. Came to California and then recognized that Napa Valley was one of the great grape growing areas of California and ultimately came to Napa Valley and ...

Doug:
And that was ... 

Marc:
Bought Charles Krug Winery. 

Doug:
That was what, 1940, 40? 

Marc:
1937 he bought what is now Sunny St. Helena. 

Doug:
Which was, um ...

Marc:
It was, uh ...

Doug:
Right across from Gott's, is that it? No. It's ...

Marc:
Not Sunny St. Helena, it's, it's, uh, Merryvale. 

Doug:
Merryvale. 

Marc:
It was called Sunny St. Helena. 

Doug:
Got it. 

Marc:
Yeah, right across from Gott's Roadside ...

Doug:
From Gott's Roadside. Just, just right in ...

Marc:
The old Taylor's ...

Doug:
Right in St. Helena, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Marc:
You know, back then it was Taylor's Refresher, but ...

Doug:
Right, remember, with Charlie Toogood ...

Marc:
Yeah. 

Doug:
With the double bacon nut cheeseburger. 

Marc:
That's right. 

Doug:
Yeah, okay. (Laughs) 

Marc:
Yep the Toogood family ... 

Doug:
We're gonna start sounding like old guys if we keep this up. Anyway, um ...

Marc:
We're young old guys. 

Doug:
Okay, so Marc, so you got brother Peter, now, and your dad was ...

Marc:
Peter Senior ...

Doug:
Peter Senior ...

Marc:
Yeah, yeah. 

Doug:
And then his parents what were their names again? 

Marc:
It was Cesare, which, if the per-, the spelling you would read it as Cesar. 

Doug:
Cesar, right. 

Marc:
But in Italian it's pronounced Cesare ... 

Doug:
It's Cesare, okay. 

Marc:
And Rosa. 

Doug:
Rosa, of course. All right, good. 

Doug:
Got it. Um, so Sunny St. Helena, so that was, that's that beautiful stone building right there on the, right there on the highway. 

Marc:
Yes, yes. 

Doug:
So they were there for a while. 

Marc:
Yes, so there's some, there's some good stories ... Like friends of my parents used to tell me that they had hoses plugged into the tanks and they would go there from, you know, now we're talking, you know, I'm 63-years-old, so now we're talking, you know ...

Doug:
Yeah. 

Marc:
75 years ago, 80 years ago. 

Doug:
Right. 

Marc:
And they would go in and tap into the tanks at Sunny St. Helena and drain wine out so they could get a buzz on when they were in high school. 

Doug:
The kid, the high school ...

Marc:
And these are stories that I've been told. 

Doug:
The high school kids were doing it? So, so wait a minute ...

Marc:
Yeah ...

Doug:
So they're sneak, they're ...

Marc:
But these, these high school kids ... 

Doug:
(Laughs) 

Marc:
Are the parents of my friends that grew up ...

Doug:
Your peers. So, they're sneaking in ...

Marc:
Yeah. 

Doug:
They're just sneaking in and stealing wine out of the tank? (Laughs)

Marc:
Yeah, they knew how to do it, you know. But back then, you know, we didn't have all the security and stuff that ...

Doug:
Yeah. 

Marc:
You know. 

Doug:
So they get a buzz on and then go to school, to high school. 

Marc:
Yeah. 

Doug:
Two blocks away. 

Marc:
Yeah. 

Doug:
(Laughs) 

Marc:
Oh, there was cra-crazy stuff ...

Doug:
Oh, that's ...

Marc:
I mean, these guys, literally stole the train because it would park ...

Doug:
Yeah, the tracks are right there. 

Marc:
Yeah, they would park on the tracks and they would, you know, the conductor and the employees would walk across the street and have a burger ...

Doug:
Yeah. 

Marc:
Before they went home, you know, left for Napa. 

Doug:
Right. 

Marc:
And, uh ...

Doug:
They stole the train? 

Marc:
They stole the trains. But you didn't get in trouble back then ...

Doug:
(Laughs) 

Marc:
You know, you got, you got your hand spanked and ...

Doug:
Right, called your parents. 

Marc:
You know. 

Doug:
Come get the ...

Marc:
Your parents got called and you know, everybody got chewed out and that was ...

Doug:
Oh ...

Marc:
That was the end of that story. 

Doug:
They stole the train.

Marc:
They stole the train. 

Doug:
It's so good to have you here. I'm loving this stuff. (Laughs) 

Marc:
These are, these are great ... And then you have, you know, you were worried about, you know, drunk driving back then ...

Doug:
Right. 

Marc:
Still, I mean, even though it wasn't as regulated as it is today, and these, these are friends of mine parents said they used to deflate their tires and drive down the tracks.

Doug:
The got ... 

Marc:
To stay off the highway. 

Doug:
So they got (Laughs) they deflated their tires ...

Marc:
I never did that. 

Doug:
Yeah, but we've done other things. But that's, uh, that's pretty cool. So, but, so when did they go from Sunny St. Helena Winery to what is now Charles Krug? 

Marc:
They bought Sunny St. Helena in 1937 ... 

Doug:
Okay. 

Marc:
And then my grandfather heard from his banker that Charles Krug was gonna go up for sale, so he contacted James Moffitt, who owned Charles Krug at the time. 

Doug:
Right.

Marc:
And struck a deal with Moffitt and bought Krug. And then by 1955 he sold, uh, Sunny St. Helena, focused his energy at Charles Krug. 

Doug:
So he kept both wineries for a while. 

Marc:
For a while. 

Doug:
Yeah. Wow. 

Marc:
I had, I have no idea where he got all the money, but, uh, you know, it was a whopping $75000 for the 143 acres back in 1943. 

Doug:
$75000 for 143 acres. 

Marc:
$75000. We can't even buy an acre for $70 (Laughs) ... 

Doug:
You can't, you can't get (Laughs) you can't get a quarter of an acre. 

Marc:
You can't. 

Doug:
You can, um ... And was that the winery too? 

Marc:
Yeah, that was the winery ...

Doug:
And a hund- ...

Marc:
Two homes ...

Doug:
(Laughs) 

Marc:
And 143 acres in the city limits. 

Doug:
And one of the most, one of the most beautiful locations in the Valley. That, the yard you guys have at that ...

Marc:
It is. 

Doug:
That's your ... For people who don't know, there's a wonderful yard at Charles Krug and they, they're so gracious. They let people have parties and fundraisers and it's just one of the most prettiest locations in the valley. 

Marc:
Well this year we're hosting the barrel, the barrel portion of the Napa Valley Wine Auction, so ...

Doug:
That's right. And also, so, but you guys, you know, Shafer's been around since '73, you know, 30 years or so. 30 or 40 years, but you've got, you know, your guys are 75th anniversary this year. 

Marc:
75th this year. 

Doug:
Congratulations. 

Marc:
Yeah, feels good. You know, I was very disappointed to read in the paper this morning that Heitz Wine Cellar sold ...

Doug:
Yeah. 

Marc:
But, you know, I mean, I understand. Uh, time moves on. But, uh, you know, we've set it up so hopefully our kids stay in the wine business for ...

Doug:
Right. 

Marc:
Another generation or two. 

Doug:
Yep, that's the hope. Um, but your dad, I didn't know your dad well but whenever I ch-chatted with him or saw him he was so gracious. And I was doing some research, I forgot how much experimentation in, on wine-making that he did. 

Marc:
He did. 

Doug:
He did some really cool stuff. 

Marc:
He did. 

Doug:
And I don't, and no one knows about it. 

Marc:
No. In, in, uh, he went to Stanford, got his undergraduate degree at Stanford. UC Davis didn't have a program going back in '30, whatever it was, '38, '39 ...

Doug:
Got it. 

Marc:
But UC Berkeley had a, had a beer ...

Doug:
That's right, Berkeley had the ag sch- ... 

Marc:
Wine ... Yeah. 

Doug:
And the ag school too ... 

Marc:
And an ag school ...

Doug:
Before Davis, okay. 

Marc:
So when he, when he graduated from Stanford, he did some of his research at Berkeley. He didn't get his masters degree, but he took some classes and did, uh, quite a bit of research. Cold fermentation, which is now, it's been adapted worldwide. 

Doug:
But, but ...

Marc:
Everybody who makes white wine ... 

Doug:
But your grandparent, father wasn't doing that, right? 

Marc:
No, he wasn't doing that. He was ...

Doug:
So here's your dad going to, going to Berkeley, taking the fermentation, beer-making wine thing, and coming up with this. The cold fer- ...

Marc:
Yeah. 

Doug:
Because that's, to those of you who don't I'm ... So it's, it ... Marc and I are, we're kind of like wine-maker guys ... 

Marc:
(Laughs) 

Doug:
And that's what we do (Laughs) ...

Marc:
Kind of.

Doug:
But the cold, the whole cold fermentation, uh, was revolutionary, because fermentation are hot and you, when they, they, you don't control the temp they blow off fruit, they blow off, uh, acid. Uh, some of these subtleties that make today's wine so good, you gotta ferment them cold. Especially the white wines and roses. But ... So your dad, he was the guy. 

Marc:
And we, you know, and back then there wasn't a whole lot of technology, you know ...

Doug:
Right. 

Marc:
Refrigeration systems and all these sorts of things. So they, they did things like circulate cold water. 

Doug:
Got it.

Marc:
You know, cool water and, you know, if you had a well and the water came out at 52 degrees, whatever, you'd circulate through some jackets and, and that was the extent of your cooling. But ... 

Doug:
It made it diff-

Marc:
It made all the difference in the world. 

Doug:
It made a difference. Yeah. 

Marc:
You know, versus a completely uncontrolled, uh, fermentation that could, you know, it could literally hit 95 plus degrees. 

Doug:
Yeah. 

Marc:
And burn itself out ...

Doug:
Burn itself out and ...

Marc:
And then you have a stuck ferment. 

Doug:
Right. 

Marc:
You know, we all don't like those. 

Doug:
(Laughs) We don't like those. 

Marc:
Uh, and then white wines. Y-you know, that's why we make white wines ...

Doug:
Yeah. 

Marc:
That have lots of fruit and, and, uh ...

Doug:
Oh, yeah. 

Marc:
Lots of aromatics, 'cause before they were fermented hot like red wines and they just became a cooked ...

Doug:
Cooked, yeah. 

Marc:
White wine with very little fruit notes. 

Doug:
Yeah, just kind of, just alcohol. 

Marc:
Yeah, so everybody, I don't care where you are in the world, everybody uses some sort of temperature control ...

Doug:
Something, yeah. Well even, you know, even with the reds ...

Marc:
Yeah. 

Doug:
Reds we ferment them hot for color and extraction but, like you said, you don't want them to get too hot ...

Marc:
But keep a lid on it. 

Doug:
Yeah, you can, you can watch that ...

Marc:
For sure. 

Doug:
Wow, so your dad ... And then French oak barrels. 

Marc:
Yeah, yeah.

Doug:
Was he the first one to bring them in? 

Marc:
We, we were not the fir- ... He, he and my uncle Robert ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). 

Marc:
Were using, experimenting with French oak barrels. 

Doug:
Okay. 

Marc:
Because they had not been used in any ... To my knowledge, anywhere in the US. And they liked them, but Hanzell over in Sonoma ...

Doug:
Right. 

Marc:
Small producer of chardonnay and pinot noir, still around.

Doug:
Right. 

Marc:
Hanzell actually beat him to the punch. 

Doug:
That, I did read that. 

Marc:
Bringing them, bringing the first commercial, you know ...

Doug:
French oak barrels in ...

Marc:
French oak barrels. 

Doug:
When was that? '50s, '60s? Oh man ...

Marc:
That was in the ...

Doug:
Probably ...

Marc:
Early '60s. 

Doug:
Early '60s, yeah. 

Marc:
And I can remember my father bitching because ...

Doug:
(Laughs) 

Marc:
He had to pay $40 for a French oak barrel. I'll let you Doug, Doug tell you the price today. (Laughs) 

Doug:
The, the, today's price is, uh, easy $1100 a ...

Marc:
Easy. 

Doug:
A barrel for French oak. 

Marc:
Yeah. 

Doug:
$40 ... 

Marc:
$40. 

Doug:
Oh ...

Marc:
And I can remember he's going, "I don't know how we're gonna afford this. $40 a barrel." 

Doug:
Oh. 

Marc:
And w-, naturally, you know, wine was ... You know, you can buy a bottle of cabernet back then for $4 ... 

Doug:
For $6, six, $4, $6, yeah. 

Marc:
$6, you know so it's, it's relative. 

Doug:
Yeah, oh man. And, uh, the other one I found was Carneros. He started growing grapes in Carneros back then. 

Marc:
Yeah, yeah. 

Doug:
No one grew grapes in ... 

Marc:
There was, uh ... 

Doug:
You know, Carneros didn't explode until ...

Marc:
Louis Martini had a property in Carneros, uh, in Napa and Rene Di Rosa Winery Lake ...

Doug:
Right, Winery Lake. 

Marc:
He planted his vines a year before we planted ours. It was all dairies down there. 

Doug:
Yeah. 

Marc:
We bought, you know, we bought a used ... Used ... A dairy ...

Doug:
Yeah. 

Marc:
Uh ... 

Doug:
Pasture. 

Marc:
From Joe Brown and by God Joe ...

Doug:
Yeah. 

Marc:
And I'm sure none of you out there will remember Joe, but everything was ...

Doug:
By God ...

Marc:
Phrase, "By God." And, uh ... 

Doug:
(Laughs) 

Marc:
Anyway so, y-you look at Carneros today, whether it's Napa side or, or Sonoma side, there's only I think one dairy left ... 

Doug:
Yeah. 

Marc:
Maybe two. It's all grapes. 

Doug:
It's all grapes, yeah. It's changed. 

Marc:
It has. 

Doug:
Okay, so your dad, revolutionary as far as ... You know modern wine-making. Giving us better wines all the world, getting, you know, all the way getting us to the world stage. So you, you came on, you grew up and you were, you were born and raised on the property, right? 

Marc:
Yeah, I was, yeah. I was born at St. Helena Hospital. And, I grew up, grew up in, we lived actually in town. My grandparents and my uncle ...

Doug:
Your grandparents lived right ...

Marc:
Lived on the winery property and then, uh, l-later on, you know, after my grandparents were, were deceased, uh, we moved to the winery. 

Doug:
Yeah. So I gotta, so summer, you know, your, your life was going to school and then working in the vineyards, working in the winery. You're, you're a kid at the winery. 

Marc:
I still, I still have, I haven't seen it for a few years, but I have my first pay stub ...

Doug:
Oh, yeah, weren't you ...

Marc:
$.25 an hour. 

Doug:
$.25 an hour? 

Marc:
Yeah, my dad was a slave driver. (Laughs) 

Doug:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know about that. (Laughs) I mean, personally. 

Marc:
We all do.

Doug:
We all do. Um, but you, you had an official position at age 10. What were ...

Marc:
Well, I wouldn't call it official, but ...

Doug:
(Laughs) 

Marc:
(Laughs) I worked, uh, in summers from age 10 ... The first few years I packed gift packs. 

Doug:
Right. 

Marc:
You know, we don't, we don't do Christmas gift packs anymore like ... But back in those days it was a big deal ...

Doug:
Yeah. 

Marc:
Christmas, you know, two bottle packs. 

Doug:
Right. 

Marc:
Two bottles and two wine glasses, or three bottles and a corkscrew, whatever. 

Doug:
And ... Right. 

Marc:
And, uh, so my brother and I would pack those all summer long so they were ready to go during, uh, during the holiday season. 

Doug:
That's great. So, 'cause ... You're a year older than I am, and Pete's how much younger than you? 

Marc:
Pete's three-and-a-half ... 

Doug:
Yeah ... 

Marc:
Almost exactly ...

Doug:
So he's younger, so I'm right between you guys. 

Marc:
Yeah. 

Doug:
So I gotta ask you a question. 

Marc:
Sure. 

Doug:
This one's been ... Because I've heard rumors, and I don't know if it's true or not. I flashed on, I actually called my little brother this morning, because when we moved out from Chicago in 1973, and in Chicago we had this go kart. And it was this racing frame, we only had, like, a three-and-a-half horsepower on it, but it was fun as heck. And I guess we dragged it along, but I don't think it ever got brought out here. I think my little brother said he drove it around the driveway. 
But I heard a story that my dad sold it to you guys, or sold it to your dad. Do you, do you remember anything about a go kart? 

Marc:
He could have. 

Doug:
(Laughs) 

Marc:
My brother ...

Doug:
It was Pete, maybe it was Pete. 

Marc:
Pete had a go kart, and ... But it had more than a three-and-a-half horse (Laughs) ...

Doug:
No that's, no that, that was it. So, that's what I heard, I heard that he bought it and then I heard it ...

Marc:
And he fixed ...

Doug:
He fixed it. 

Marc:
He tweaked it. He's an engineer by training. 

Doug:
Yeah, yeah. 

Marc:
And so he ... 

Doug:
He put like a 25, I mean, he put a racing motor on it. 

Marc:
He, he put a, it was about a 10-horse ...

Doug:
Okay.