Tim Mondavi

Full Transcript

Doug:
Hey, welcome back everybody, Doug Shafer with another podcast episode of The Taste, today we've got a guy in here, who's a pretty good friend, but we've really never spent a lot of time together, so I've been looking forward to this because it's, we're way overdue, we, we've got Tim Mondavi here, Tim welcome.

Tim:
Thank you very much Doug, I'm delighted to be here.

Doug:
It's good to have you.

Tim:
I spent time with your dad, and doing a lot of things, and look forward to spending more time with you.

Doug:
Well, I think you and I have a lot in common ...

Tim:
Yep.

Doug:
... but I, I got to tell you about, I got to tell you one story about one, the best, truly the best summer job I ever had. I was a tour guide at Robert Mondavi Winery, this was the summer of '79, I was between Davis and going down to teach school in Tucson for a couple of years, so I got this job as a tour guide. Let me tell you, '79, I think I'm making $15 an hour, I'm doing three tours a day, tour lasts about an hour, you got an eight-hour shift, in between tours, we're in the back room there, the original vineyard room, eating cheese from Oakville grocery, drinking b- beautiful wines, 'cause there was always some VIP there, and there was reserve Pinots, and reserve cabs, and I'm 23, I'm meeting girls, we got the Mondavi ...

Tim:
(laughs).

Doug:
... summer concerts going on, it was the best summer job of my life.

Tim:
And you probably saw a few comparison wines that weren't so bad as well.

Doug:
There w-

Tim:
Dad would always want to compare with the best of the world, and-

Doug:
That's true, that's true.

Tim:
... he always would.

Doug:
Your dad's, yeah, he, he would do that.

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
And, I remember seeing you running around the cellar, I'd be, I'd be, you know, guiding the tour through the cellar, you know, and there would be Tim over there, and your dad, it was a lot of fun.

Tim:
And always in the tasting area, there are lots of, lots of tastings, lots of wines, and had a, it was a, really it was an incredible time back in the earlier days of Robert Mondavi.

Doug:
Yeah, it was neat, beautiful wines. So that was '79, but hey let's, let's start from the beginning, do you, do you mind going back?

Tim:
No.

Doug:
Grand, grand, grandparents, grandparents, the whole deal?

Tim:
I'd, I'd be delighted to go back. Absolutely.

Doug:
So let's hear some Mondavi history.

Tim:
Well, in the beginning, yes, so there was ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... it was Rosa and Cesare, at a, yes it was like Adam and Eve ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... but actually my grandparents immigrated from Italy in 1906, but my grandfather got us into the wine business 100 years ago this year, 1919.

Doug:
Really?

Tim:
With the onset ofPprohibition, you know, the prohibitioners couldn't go against the church, right?

Doug:
Right, right.

Tim:
There were, well the church ladies that were against their men, overindulging spirits, but they couldn't go against the church that needed wine for their sacraments ...

Doug:
There you go.

Tim:
... and so there was the exception of sacramental wine was allowed, all the medical friends of wine, the doctors said, you know, in moderation wine is healthy and good for you ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... and so, okay, well that's another exception, you could have wine prescribed to you by your doctor, and then, thirdly-

Doug:
(laughs) I'd do probably that.

Tim:
... by extension, each head of household was allowed four, to make four barrels worth of wine, and so that-

Doug:
That's, that's, so that's four ton, that's, that's 80 cases of wine?

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
Roughly.

Tim:
Yeah, roughly.

Doug:
That'll last.

Tim:
Well, yeah in, but if you think about it, 80 cases of wine, you know, if you have friends over, you share a bottle of wine each night-

Doug:
Yeah.

Tim:
... you know, it goes pretty quickly.

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
But anyway, that's how my grandfather got into the grape shipping business for home winemaking, starting in 1919 ...

Doug:
And was he, was he here in California, or was he back at-

Tim:
Oh absolutely.

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
Well, he emigrated from Italy in 1906 as I mentioned ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
He followed his brother Giovanni into the iron ore mines of Minnesota ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... and when Giovanni met with a fatal accident in the mine, my grandfather very wisely went up above ground, had a boarding house, and a grocery store, and, he had his ear to the ground, he was a translator for the community, and was secretary of the Italian club, they had their ear to the ground because again they were in Minnesota ...

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... Senator Volstead the, from the Volstead Act-

Doug:
The Volstead Act.

Tim:
... was from Minnesota, they knew what was going on, they knew the exceptions, and they asked my grandfather Cesare to come to California, they gave him their cold hard cash, sent him to California, and he said, "You know, this isn't so bad." So he began discovering the length and breadth of California starting in 1919, including Napa Valley, and so, yeah, it's a big, it's a big year for us, 1919, 2019.

Doug:
That's, that's great. So, they sent a, they bankrolled his trip to move to California to ship grapes back to them.

Tim:
Well, yeah. He, he came out on a couple scouting trips ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... and then moved his family to Lodi in 1922 ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... and from there he had access throughout the entire state, the length and breadth of California, and got to know all the regions, and upon repeal, I guess all the bankers that had foreclosed on the wineries -

Doug:
Right, right.

Tim:
... during prohibition saw this young enterprising fellow who had developed a link to the marketplace for grapes, and they approached him and said, "Cesare, Cesare ... "

Doug:
Cesare.

Tim:
" ... do you think you can do that with wine?" And he said, "Yes, I think I can do that." And so, he became the president of the Acampo Wine Company over in the Lodi area ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... and they had three wineries that they worked with, one in, in Modesto, one in Lodi, and one in Napa Valley, called Sunny St. Helena Winery.

Doug:
Sunny St, but, okay this is wild, you know, your grandfather, your father, you, you know, there's a definite genetic link going on here, but anyway, but-

Tim:
And then it goes on to the next generation too, the fourth generation.

Doug:
That too, we gotta talk about those guys. But he, how old is he probably at this point?

Tim:
So he was 23.

Doug:
So this was like 1933.

Tim:
Well, he was 23 when he immigrated to America ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... now that was 1906, and so you add up the years, and there he was … 13, twenty f- yeah, 30, he would have been 36.

Doug:
Wow!

Tim:
36.

Doug:
Three wineries and one in St. Helena called Sunny St. Helena Winery ...

Tim:
Right.

Doug:
... which the- those of you who don't know, is now Merryvale ...

Tim:
Exactly.

Doug:
Okay, so he's got, so and, so was he, was he still living in Lodi or he, where did he-

Tim:
He was.

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
He was living in Lodi, he moved his family out to Lodi in 1922, and my father was born, all of my father and his siblings were born in Minnesota ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... but then they all came out, you know, what I make up, and I'm not exactly sure of all of this.

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
We've tried to find the research for all of this, but, was that these bankers approached my grandfather in 1933, there were three wineries, he was the president of the Acampo Wine Company ...

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... and so he had a number of years of experience throughout the state of California, and upon my father's graduation from college in 1936, he said, my father was thinking about business, he was thinking about law, he, but ...

Doug:
'Cause he was, it was Stanford, it, right? Yeah.

Tim:
He went to Stanford.

Doug:
Right, I remember that.

Tim:
Yeah, exactly ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... and nailing boxes, they made money to go to Stanford, and -

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... nailing boxes for shipping grapes.

Doug:
Shipping grapes.

Tim:
So, there are stories about that, but ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... at any rate, this all carried on, and, yeah my grandfather had this understanding of what California was like, and you'll have to recall another, another interesting fact, if you go back and do California wine history 101 ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... I think it was 1782, is when the first grapes and wine were harvested in Southern California's Mission San Juan Capistrano ...

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... Spanish missionaries, but it was the German immigrants that put wine on the map for Napa Valley. They had won awards for fabulous quality in Paris, and London, and Brussels against wines of throughout the world, and so Napa Valley wines were represented ...

Doug:
Interesting.

Tim:
... strongly ...

Doug:
Interesting.

Tim:
... and that recognition, that quality, led to there being 121 wineries here in Napa Valley ...

Doug:
In the, just -

Tim:
... by 1919 ...

Doug:
That's right, I remember that.

Tim:
... and 18,000 acres of vines, and then Prohibition wiped all that out. The German immigrants made great wine, because they brought a culture of wine growing with them ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... they, wine growing, and winemaking, and so that led to great wines, and fame, and all the wineries followed, but they planted, how did the Germans plant those vines? Probably in hillside, it was select, no it wasn't hillside select that that came later ...

Doug:
(laughs)

Tim:
... but ...

Doug:
What if ...

Tim:
... no, but it was the hillsides that they planted, and the valley floor, but with Prohibition, the economic reality ... Second World War, the depression ...

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... all of that, everybody was in a mess throughout the world, and so all of the, high cost, low yield sites were abandoned ...

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... so Napa Valley lost half of its production, the hillsides as well as other areas.

Doug:
I didn't know they planted in the hillsides back, back then.

Tim:
Well, look at Schramsberg.

Doug:
Good point.

Tim:
Yeah, look at where Beringer is, look at there where they did plant the hillsides, they did plant the valley floor, but the only thing that got through that economic disaster of depression and Prohibition were the higher yielding areas, and there's a reason your dad chose to go to the hills. He knew what the German immigrants knew. He knew the story of the great wines of the world that seek a higher level of stress in the vines ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... just the right amount.

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
So the Hillside Select ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... is something that seems to resonate here at Shafer.

Doug:
Well, it does here at Shafer, but there are some of great sites on the hills, and on the flat lands here-

Tim:
Yes, that's true.

Doug:
... as we all know.

Tim:
Absolutely.

Doug:
But you're very kind, thank you.

Tim:
Yeah. Well I, I do think that there are, at To Kalon there's a great, yeah, my family owned ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... l- well, 530 acres of To Kalon for a very long time, I took care of it as the wine grower for my family for-

Doug:
Wow!

Tim:
... 30 years ... but that all went up in smoke at the end of 2004.

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
So your dad's, so he gets out of Stanford, so he, this is Robert, your father, and he comes up and works with your grandfather, is that, or how was?

Tim:
Yes, yes, and well, my grandfather continued to live in Lodi ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... continued to ship grapes for, up until his death in '59 ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... but my grandfather knew the areas of the valley, the interesting thing too is that in 1933, 80% of the wines of California had gone to fortified wine, America wanted that which it could not have during Prohibition, and so they wanted hooch -

Doug:
They wanted hooch, so it's, so it wasn't table wine, it was fortified wine?

Tim:
... port, port, sherry ...

Doug:
Brandy.

Tim:
... you know, muscatel, angelica ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... these fortified wines, and so the epicenter, the economic epicenter of wine was at Central Valley, 80% of the wines of California at that time, in 1933, were fortified wines, so it was ...

Doug:
Wow!

Tim:
... it was a visionary moment for my grandfather then to go against that and move, and say, "Bobby, go to Napa Valley," because Napa Valley was not a very good place for fortified wine ...

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... the yields, its, the soils are restricted, the temperatures are cool, the tonnage is low.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
So, during Prohibition it is interesting to note that California planted more grapes during Prohibition, however Napa Valley lost half of its production, because again it was not productive enough.

Doug:
Got it.

Tim:
So, but-

Doug:
So it was all Central Valley where they got big yields, and they shipped it all back-

Tim:
Yes.

Doug:
... east for homemade wine, and selling the wine.

Tim:
But my grandfather was all about wine for the table, and great red wine, and Napa Valley stood out to him as being-

Doug:
Wow!

Tim:
... a great place for that.

Doug:
So he was the one. So he sent your dad, Robert?

Tim:
Yes. My grandfather Cesare was the visionary, and my father just got on board, and took us to the stars.

Doug:
Got it, and so he, so your dad shows up at Sunny St. Helena ...

Tim:
Yes.

Doug:
... as he runs out, and then-

Tim:
1936.

Doug:
... that was, that was the first winery he was working at ...

Tim:
Yes.

Doug:
... and then ...

Tim:
And because of the family being able to develop this connection to, again-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... to the marketplace, and being, you know, just being honored there, it coincided in 1943 with, Mr. Moffitt from San Francisco, who owned Charles Krug at the time ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... wanted to get out of the wine-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... business, and was looking for a family that would carry it on, and so Paul Alexander, the fellow from the Bank of America in St. Helena approached my father with the notion, and my father of course raced ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... into saying, "Wow! What a great opportunity this is."

Doug:
I can see that picture.

Tim:
Oh boy, yeah, and he went home to Lodi, to, in a very eager way ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... and discussed the idea over dinner with my grandfather who was a little bit different from my father ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... he was very conservative, very quiet, not, didn't say much, but my grandfather, and my father was very dynamic, and he was like his, his mother, but my father was talking a mile a minute over dinner, and then ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... about the great opportunity this would provide ...

Doug:
Right, right.

Tim:
... and then my grandfather just kind of gets up, and says, "Good night." And goes upstairs to bed. So my father says, "Mom, we got to do something about this, this is a great opportunity."

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
And she says, "Don't worry, I'll take care of it."

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
She goes up to bed, and then the following morning Cesare comes down the stairs, and says, "When do we go to St. Helena?"

Doug:
Wow!

Tim:
(laughs) So ...

Doug:
Good ol moms.

Tim:
Oh yeah.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tim:
They are persuasive ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... and, anyway, so.

Doug:
That's a great story.

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
So, so they purchased Charles Krug, which most of everyone knows is north of St Helena, fantastic, fantastic property.

Tim:
It is the oldest winery operating today in the valley.

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
1861 is when it was founded.

Doug:
Okay, and, so, so now we got, now we get to you, so Robert's running Krug with the family, and the whole thing ...

Tim:
Yes.

Doug:
... you come along, you've got a couple siblings, Michael and Marcia ...

Tim:
Yes.

Doug:
... you're the third younger, you're the, you're the-

Tim:
Last.

Doug:
... baby ...

Tim:
Yes, that's right.

Doug:
... and, we, where were you, so when you were born, were you guys living at Krug?

Tim:
Yes.

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
Oh yeah.

Doug:
Grew up at Charles Krug, how fun?

Tim:
Charles Krug was my playground, you know, went out in the vineyards with Pietro Valardinelli, who was, we all called him Uncle Pete ...

Doug:
Uh-huh (affirmative).

Tim:
... and ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... my grandmother would occasionally, or often, prepare these fabulous meals for us, and, my mom and my dad would always invite people to the valley, and, you know, Napa Valley was not then what it is thought of as now ...

Doug:
Agreed.

Tim:
... an example of that is when I would learn to ski, and I would go up to Heavenly Valley ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... you'd be on a chairlift with somebody from the Bay Area you never met and say, "Hi, great day, where are you from?"

Doug:
"Where are you from? Where are you from" Yeah, right.

Tim:
You'd say Napa Valley, and they'd say, "Hmm, where, where's, oh that, that's right, isn't, isn't that where the insane asylum is?"

Doug:
That's right. That's what it was known for.

Tim:
And, I tell you, "Oh yeah, that's, yeah that's right-"

Doug:
The sanitarium.

Tim:
" ... Napa State Hospital, would be there."

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
And, or the other ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... thing that people recognized was the veteran's home ...

Doug:
That's in Yountville.

Tim:
... and but nobody thought about wine, I mean it had been illegal ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... not long before and it was certainly looked down upon, so nobody thought much of it, and Napa Valley wines, California wines were, you know, third-rate compared to French, or Italian, or German ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... but my father had this, he knew that we had the soil, and the climate, and the capabilities to do great things. So, things evolved from that.

Doug:
Right, so you were growing up in St. Helena ...

Tim:
Yes.

Doug:
... playing at Charles Krug, there's probably 15 or 20 wineries in the valley, but ...

Tim:
20.

Doug:
... yeah.

Tim:
Robert Mondavi Winery in 1966 was the 21st winery.

Doug:
The 21st, and, but so high school, was that St Helena ...

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
... or Napa, or?

Tim:
No, no, no, well actually I grew up in St. Helena, but then went away to high school ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... my father always wanted the best ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... and so, we all went away to, my brother, sister and I went away to high school, and, anyway, but still-

Doug:
Yeah.

Tim:
... this is, this is, has always been home.

Doug:
But, boy, growing up, so, you know, because that's the early '60s in Napa Valley, which is, must have been g- gosh, you know, there's no wineries, well I'm even, we moved out in '73, I think there were 30 wineries when we got out here, and, no fancy hotels, no restaurants ...

Tim:
No restaurants.

Doug:
... and it was, it was rural, yeah.

Tim:
All the best food was in, in the homes ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... and, because of the Martinis, and the Mondavis, and a few other Italian people that were in the valley, the Italian community was strong, and the meals in the homes were fabulous, but there were no-

Doug:
Hmm.

Tim:
... restaurants. Really no restaurants to speak of, so, and it's, it's come a long way since that time.

Doug:
So you're growing up, there's, I'm assuming there's w- there's always wine on the table ...

Tim:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
... and, was it always California wine, or, I'm guessing, knowing your dad, he's drinking wines from all over the world.

Tim:
Well, yes it was wine from all over the world ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... and there were people from all over the world, particularly the United States, that would come through the home, and, you know, I grew up, my bedroom was 50 yards from the crusher at Charles Krug ... and so people would look for, come to the house and want to use the bathroom, and, you know, and ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... you know, it was, it was early days in the industry.

Doug:
Real quickly, your mom Marg- Margret, yeah?

Tim:
Yes, that's right.

Doug:
So where did she and your dad meet?

Tim:
Well, they both grew up in Lodi, my mother was-

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... born in Lodi, and my father moved to Lodi when he was 13 years old with his family ...

Doug:
Okay, yeah.

Tim:
... and so they grew up there together, my father was, a couple years older, and, yeah.

Doug:
And so '66, that's when your dad breaks out, and founds Robert Mondavi Winery, the 21st winery in Napa.

Tim:
Well, he was broken out, I should say ...

Doug:
Well ...

Tim:
... because, yeah in '65, you know, you have to remember, some good friends that were in the valley, their parents would always say, "Well, wine, that's how you go out of business."

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
You don't go into the wine business, that's a little bit bizarre. So there were ... very difficult times, economically, and so lots of challenges, and so my father always being the optimist, would always push, and push, and push, and while my grandfather was alive, my grandfather knew what was going on, but he died in '59, and so-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... six years later, things were a little bit too tight, and my father was booted out of Krug ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... and so he began, he wanted to provide an opportunity for the family, and so-

Doug:
Great.

Tim:
... he began Robert Mondavi, the 21st winery in Napa Valley, after working with his family for 30 years ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... he was 53 years old, and, most people were considering retiring, but he said, "No, this is ... " So, so your, your father ...

Doug:
Yeah.

Tim:
... how old was your father when he began at Shafer?

Doug:
I did the math, I was, I was doing some research on you yesterday, when dad, so he moved to South when he was 48, his first vintage was '78, the '78 vintage, and he was 53 years old.

Tim:
Oh yeah (laughs). A lot of, a lot of years.

Doug:
And if I'm not mistaken, Continuum, you're, you're baby ...

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
... you're, you were a baby, you were a new project, you were 53 when you started.

Tim:
Yes, that's right.

Doug:
There you go.

Tim:
Yes, after working with my family for 30 years too, so yeah, there were a lot of Continuum's in (laughs) our ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... in our history.

Doug:
No, and listen, what happened, so you were, I think I di- again, I did the math, you were, when he, in '66 when he started, you were 15 ...

Tim:
Yes.

Doug:
... were you, what was that like for you, is it just kind of crazy, or, you know, dad's just doing his thing, and off he goes, and?

Tim:
No, it was very difficult times ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... and as I had mentioned, my grandfather died not long before, and there were-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... always economic challenges ...

Doug:
Got it.

Tim:
... the wine business was how you go out of business, and so lots of challenges, yet I never feared for things economically, but there was a lot of tension within the family, and it manifest itself in many different ways, but, still my grandmother was a fabulous lady ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... and, I have nothing but great affection and regard for her, and my grandfather, but at any rate, they were very difficult times. My father began Robert Mondavi with, or, all of his assets were tied up at Charles Krug, he had no financial capability other than the, the goodwill of friends, and partners, he had two partners when, in founding Robert Mondavi Winery, Fred Holmes who ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... dealt with real estate in the area, and owned, the land that is now Auberge du Soleil, and Round Hill Winery down there-

Doug:
I remember that, right.

Tim:
... and Ivan Shoch who was the grape grower for-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... Inglenook and Beaulieu, and, prior to Andy Beckstoffer ... so they were the two partners, and they sold out after two years, and, yeah, I worked there every summer, since it began.

Doug:
So, was just kind of curious, because I was gonna ask you, it's like, hey you're growing up and, you know, son of Robert Mondavi, famous, famous, famous, and I was listening to you right now, I realize when you were a teenager, and he's just getting going, okay yeah, it's Robert Mondavi's Winery, but it, it, it, I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, there was no instant fame, he wasn't-

Tim:
Oh no.

Doug:
... you know, it was like, I, 'cause you, we have a parallel there too, 'cause I was gonna say, what was it like being 15, 16, 17 in Robert Mondavi Winery, and all that fame, it's like that-

Tim:
No.

Doug:
... probably wasn't happening.

Tim:
No.

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
It was Robert who, you know?

Doug:
Robert who?

Tim:
And, you know, nobody knew that they, Charles Krug was known ...

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... but we C. Mondavi and Sons were the owner, and my father had made-

Doug:
That's right.

Tim:
... quite a name for himself within the industry, but again, Napa Valley wines, California wines were not regarded highly, they-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... were illegal, they had been made illegal during prohibition ... concurrent with that was all kinds of problems that took place in the wines, you have concrete fermenters, and ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... redwood fermenters, and not a lot of knowledge, and no money to spend money on, and so there were some challenges, and so, but throughout the wine world, there was off cooperage, and-

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... so my father was the first to build Robert Mondavi Winery using new techniques.

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
Louis Martini Winery was the first to be built after Prohibition, but it was built using old technology, and Louis Martini Sr. used the then current ...

Doug:
Current.

Tim:
... technology, but then 33 years later technology had evolved, and, so stainless steel tanks were-

Doug:
I think your dad was, wasn't he one of the first to go stainless steel?

Tim:
He was the first.

Doug:
He was the first, yeah.

Tim:
Yeah, and then I know that, what was his name? From, Haut Brion, Jan Del Moss ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... said he followed Dad using stainless steel ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... over there at ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... Haut Brion, and then, you know, I, I can go on a litany of all the ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... different cooperage that various people have, but, yeah he did a lot of interesting things, Mike Grgich who well ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... I'll be seeing Warren Winiarski later this afternoon ...

Doug:
Oh great.

Tim:
... but, Warren was the first fellow who worked with us at Robert Mondavi, and I worked with him in the summers as a kid ...

Doug:
Really?

Tim:
... and, and-

Doug:
What did ...

Tim:
... then Mike Grgich followed him, and I worked with Mike, and they both went on to be in the Judgment of Paris ...

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... and each recognized our wines were not in that tasting, because we were too well-known, Joanne Dupuis, Joanne Dupuis was the the lady that-

Doug:
I remember Joanne.

Tim:
... collected the wines for Steven Spurrier ... and she had her own clients, she had a tour company, and she had taken Steven Spurrier around, and, so she wanted to present the wines that the unknown wine race ...

Doug:
Oh.

Tim:
... of Napa Valley, so-

Doug:
That's kind of frustrating.

Tim:
... and so Robert Mondavi was too well known, so at any rate, but both Mike and Warren went on to be recognized in that Judgment of Paris tasting.

Doug:
But they started at Mondavi.

Tim:
Well they, they, they-

Doug:
They started with your dad.

Tim:
... each had, well Warren worked at Souverain prior ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... he was a professor of philosophy at University of Chicago I believe ... but then he worked with Lee Stewart at Souverain, and then he worked with us, and Mike Grgich had been at Beaulieu under Andre Tchelistcheff ...

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... for many years, and then worked with us for a year, for a few years, then went on to Montelena, and then went on to found Grgich Hills, but, yeah.

Doug:
It's in- it's incestuous business, isn't it?

Tim:
Well, it was small.

Doug:
It was small.

Tim:
It was very small, and everybody helped everybody, and so that was part of the, genesis of why Napa Valley is known as well as it is-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... because we collaborate ...

Doug:
Yeah.

Tim:
... we're friendly, and help each other, because if your wines are looked upon well from Napa Valley, then mine will probably be as well. So, it was a good thing.

Doug:
I'm gonna circle back to that one, but before I do, so high school then, so you go to, you go to Davis?

Tim:
I did.

Doug:
And goes to, and to viticulture/enology, the whole, was that the, the plan, that was what you were gonna do, or did you have anything, like do anything else?

Tim:
Well, no, I was ...

Doug:
Just curious.

Tim:
... there were challenges within the family ... within my, father and my uncle at the time, and, , and then I th- my brother being eight years older than me, I thought that he and my father had figured everything out, and so I was thinking about doing other things ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... until I went to Europe in 1970 ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... and saw that family's actually can work together in peace and harmony and delight, and it wasn't such a bad thing, and ...

Doug:
That's a nice, that's a great experience.

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tim:
And, the Demptos family took me in ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... and we spent a lot of time in Bordeaux, and they, and the Saunders, Louis Demptos's wife was a Saunders, they had OBE ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... and had the best meals there with three generations of the Demptos Saunders family, and ...

Doug:
And Demptos is a barrel producer, they ...

Tim:
Yes.

Doug:
... produce barrels.

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
And for many, we, many, most of us have used their barrels for many years worth of barrel producers too, but

Tim:
Oh yeah, Louis and Pierre ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... were the elder generation, and then Philippe, and ...

Doug:
Right, Philippe.

Tim:
... Dominic were a little bit older than I was at the time, but they carried on, they would show me all over the place in Bordeaux, as they had my father before, and it was such an amazing time, but we became good friends, and and we were, we became their largest barrel purchaser ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... as we did with Francois Ferrer and Burgundy, and I know, but it was a big deal.

Doug:
That's great, and so the 1970s, so you're probably just going to college at that point?

Tim:
Oh yeah, I was between, between my freshman and sophomore in college.

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
So you came back and said, "Let's do it. Let's, let's go on."

Tim:
Yeah, I did ...

Doug:
Yeah.

Tim:
... and so I started taking chemistry classes, and biochem, and organic, and all of that stuff-

Doug:
All that stuff, yeah.

Tim:
... all of that stuff, which I have squeaked through, and probably forgotten.

Doug:
We have that in common too (laughs).

Tim:
(laughs).

Doug:
So you come out with the viticulture enology, who were, who were some of your peers in that program, they're, they're still in the wine biz?

Tim:
Oh, golly, well there were people before, well Jerry Luper was ahead-

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... of me in the valley, it was a small, it was a small class, but growing ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... rapidly. The professors there, Danny Webb, Dr. Webb ...

Doug:
Right, Dr. Webb.

Tim:
... was there, Dr. Amarine, Hudburg -

Doug:
The original guys.

Tim:
Yeah, oh yeah, ABCs, Amarine, Berg, and Cruz ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... and they had the technology of wine, but yeah they were, they were very impressive, and particularly Dr. Amarine who would tell stories, he was the global, the globetrotter, and ...

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... had the best stories, but, oh yeah those are the early days.

Doug:
Yeah. So you come out of Davis, and do you, do you go straight to Robert Mondavi, or do you go somewhere else?

Tim:
Sure. No, I was there, I worked at Robert Mondavi every year ...

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... since it began, I put the first valves on the first tanks ...

Doug:
Did you? That's kind of cool.

Tim:
... as a 15-year-old kid, I was told how to use that tape, and the -

Doug:
Yeah, the Teflon tape. Got it.

Tim:
The Teflon tape, you put the valves on ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... and you have them straight, and, the first harvest was before there was a roof on the ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... cellar but, dad was hell-bent for election to have it happen, and it did. So, I should also say that we broke ground on my sister's birthday, July 16th ...

Doug:
Wow!

Tim:
... just a couple days ago now, but July 16th of '66, and although the very first crush was at Charles Krug ...

Doug:
Got it, okay, for the '66 vintage.

Tim:
... and so the very first portion of the first crush, but thereafter the crush continued at Robert Mondavi in 1966, and interestingly enough, I work there in '66 and then '67 which is the year that the Chappellet's had their first crush, and it was at Robert Mondavi, and I worked on their Chappellet wines ...

Doug:
I didn't know that.

Tim:
... as a kid.

Doug:
So Chappellet was custom crushed, obviously custom crushing-

Tim:
Yes, they were building their wine ...

Doug:
They were building.

Tim:
... not yet completed, and ...

Doug:
So they crushed.

Tim:
... as, as the very first portion of the '66 harvest was at Krug, my father always had open doors and would help anybody as the valley did.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
I think their aging was at Schramsberg if I remember the story correctly but ...

Doug:
But you ...

Tim:
... but their crush, I worked on the Chappellet wines as a kid with Warren Winiarski.

Doug:
So these are, this is great. So this is Cabernet from Pritchard Hill with Chappellets-

Tim:
Well, it was Chenin Blanc.

Doug:
Seven block, but it's, basically it's Pritchard Hill ...

Tim:
Yes.

Doug:
... and because you go full circle, 'cause that's where your new home is now, Continuum.

Tim:
Yes, exactly, we're contiguous to them, and, and, and ironically, the mother of my children, Dorothy, was a babysitter for Molly Chappellet ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... and so all of the kids know Dorothy, and so it just shows how small a valley this valley really was.

Doug:
Well, it, it was, and, you know, I, we, we came, I guess I feel like I've been here a long enough time to be f- almost, almost a native, but '73, I got to tell you something, and, 'cause you've touched on, and I've made a note, 'cause, it's really important to say, and I'm not sure where it came from, or was it the spirit of the valley, but I think your dad, and your family, and I was curious if you were aware of your dad's, my impression was it was your dad's philosophy, or basically the philosophy of your whole family at Robert Mondavi Winery. I, and I say family, meaning not just family members, but staff, and employees, because when I was starting out winemaking, basically, and coming up, the word was, if you want to know anything that's going on, you can call Mondavi Vintage, they'll tell you, they will share stuff with you, they'll share what they've learned, they'll share this, I was like, "Yeah, right. Yeah right." And I'm here, I walk into this place in 1983, I'd worked for Randy Mason for two years as a cellar rat, yeah I had a degree, but you know I was way green, way t- I walked into a disaster, pretend I'm icy, it's too numerous to count, I've got flawed wines, I've got this, I've got that, I was like, "Help." I had some consultant, or consultant that was fine, but was out lamenting one time to someone, and they said, "Hey, you should, you should call up Brad Warner over at Mondavi."

Tim:
Yeah. I said, "Who's that?" He goes, "Oh, he's one of the winemakers, you know, he works with Tim, and, you know, they've got a whole crew of guys." I said, "You're kidding me." He said, "No, call him up." I called him up, if I'd known you I would have called you, and I said, "Hey, you got some time?" I sat down in his office, I had a whole list of questions for like two hours, I said, "Brad, you know, what do I do about this? What do I do about this cooperage that's, that's infected with brett? And how do I clean up ... " You know? And he was, he was as patient, and as giving, and as sharing as I've ever, I'll never forget it ...

Tim:
Yeah, and he still is.

Doug:
... and, and it became evident that this was kind of the way it was, especially at Mondavi with you guys, and it, it shared, and, and you know you take it a step further, it's, sure it's being good neighbors, but probably to quote your dad and you, a r- you know, a rising, a rising tide.

Tim:
Absolutely.

Doug:
So all of a sudden, Napa Valley quality of wines back in the '50s, '60s, so-so, so-so, in a 30 or 40 year period, look at the quality of the wines in this valley as to, to quote your father, you know, we can be as good as anyone in the world ...

Tim:
Absolutely.

Doug:
... and it happened in a 30 year period, not a 300 year period, because of that spirit of sharing ...

Tim:
Yes.

Doug:
... and that came from, that came from you-

Tim:
Absolutely.

Doug:
... that came from you guys. I mean, you, you-

Tim:
Well, I think it did, and I ...

Doug:
... Tim, you guys had that rep, it was like -

Tim:
No it is true, we did have that, I don't know, I would say that it is also the spirit of my grandmother particularly, she was a very gregarious, outgoing gal, it is said of her, there, she is written up in a book called Americans By Choice ...

Doug:
Oh really?

Tim:
... by Angelo Pellegrini, and in fact there are stories about the Martinis, and my grandmother, and a number of others, but it is a, a, a very sweet brief read that speaks about, the immigrant spirit, and, St. Helena is built by immigrants at that time, by Italian immigrants, the Martinis would want to work with people that would speak Italian, and the Mondavis ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... would, so Charles Krug, and Martini Winery would have lots of Italians, and, and but there was a spirit people would say of my grandmother, first of all she was a fabulous cook ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... and there was a l- how many places to set the table, there were, there were six of us, she'd always set it for 10, there may be a few people just dropping by.

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
You know, and so-

Doug:
That's cool.

Tim:
... she set, a tone of welcome that my grandfather Cesare and she had, and my father carried on with that, and it is a question of, yes what's good for you is good for me, but it's also just out of a spirit of generosity, and I think wine is a beverage of generosity, its whole purpose is to bring people together in health and happiness ...

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... and so hospitality is central to our, to our family, and also as a result I think this entire valley, and that's the reason why the vintners, well my father was a part of the for-

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... formation of the vintners, and I was with him when he presented, I was on the board of the vintners, in '78, and prior actually, but, you know, it was, I, I w- I was with my father when he brought the idea of the, of the Napa Valley Wine Auction ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... its Auction Napa Valley now, but it was, then it was Napa Valley wine Auction ...

Doug:
And it's, and it, in 30 plus years it's a, over $185 million ...

Tim:
Yes. That's right.

Doug:
... that we've raised for its community.

Tim:
Yeah, without last year's, so it'll be 197 more, so just under $200 million-

Doug:
Look at you, you're, you're way ahead of it, yeah, amazing.

Tim:
... with last year's.

Doug:
But look, so look how a cultural, a cultural, or a very personal family norm of openness and welcoming just to family and friends through you guys spread that into the business world, and normally you think you don't want to share ideas 'cause somebody will beat you out, it's like, "No, we can all be successful here."

Tim:
No, absolutely.

Doug:
Yeah. Are we com- are we competitive? Sure, but there's-

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
... enough room for everybody.

Tim:
I think, I think we're co- I think collectively we have helped Napa Valley be recognized as a-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... very important place, and if you're one off, then yours one off.

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
If you can build a category, if you build a, a recognition, and if Shafer wines are well recognized, then other wines will be from the area ...

Doug:
Sure, sure.

Tim:
... neighboring wines will be, and so everybody benefits from that, and if anybody doesn't do so, well it hurts too.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tim:
So ...

Doug:
Yeah. I, actually sometimes I'll be at a tasting, there'll be someone who, you know, is, you know, up the road or down the road, and I'll taste their wine and it's like, "Hmm, hmm, this could be better."

Tim:
(laughs).

Doug:
I mean, yeah, I'm not trying to be critical, but it's like ...

Tim:
Sure.

Doug:
... darn it, you know, come on guys, 'cause we're-

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
... we've all gotten Napa Valley on the label.

Tim:
Yeah, yeah that's right.

Doug:
That's, that's important.

Tim:
Yeah, that's right.

Doug:
So good. So you were at the wine, so you were at Mondavi for 30 years in charge of wine?

Tim:
I was in charge of the wines for 30 years, '74 to 2004.

Doug:
Wow!

Tim:
You know, now I was put in ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... in charge of the wines, but I too recognize that I did not know everything, I still don't, (laughs) 40 some odd years later and so I think it's, it is very important to be interdependent with great people, and so you mentioned Brad Warner ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... Brad had worked at Charles Krug Winery before coming over to Robert Mondavi, and he was-

Doug:
I didn't know that.

Tim:
... a cornerstone of the foundation of Robert Mondavi, Warren Winiarski as I mentioned ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... Mike Grgich, Zelma Long-

Doug:
Zelma Long, yeah.

Tim:
... were all there lots of great people came through, people know the winemakers, but the cellar master Brad was a cellar master ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... and he was absolutely incredible, but ultimately it's all about people, and if you can attract smart capable people, and get them on your wavelength, then fabulous things can happen ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... and my father was a master at that. He was a natural-born leader, he had a vision, and everybody wanted a part of it, and his vision was large enough to em- envelop everybody else ...

Doug:
Hmm.

Tim:
... and I think that is leadership, it's leadership. So he was an amazing man.

Doug:
Well you got to, you got to work with him how many years?

Tim:
Well, I worked full-time with him for 30 years ...

Doug:
Yeah.

Tim:
... but that doesn't count high school, or college ...

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... because I was there as well, and again I was working with Warren and, and-

Doug:
Yeah.

Tim:
... Mike, and Zelma, who I worked with for 10 years, and, then I was, you know, purely in charge, I shouldn't say purely, because that's, I don't know if you're ever purely in-

Doug:
No, no.

Tim:
... charge, it is a question of providing guidance, or leadership, and touching things this way or that, but ultimately it is having a vision that people tie into ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... and believe in, and work hard towards realization of.

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
So that's, that's the fun part of it.

Doug:
And over those 30 years, I mean it started with Robert Mondavi, then there's Opus One, Vishon, Woodbridge, on and on, I mean it was like, go- was, I'm, I'm assuming your dad was driving that, or were you, were you guys driving it together?

Tim:
Well, my father had the big vision, my father had the vision of excelling in wine, I, I think that there were a number of things that led to, that my father always wanted to go very fairly quickly, and, as I mentioned in sixt- well, eh, I don't when, need to go into all the details, but-

Doug:
Sure.

Tim:
... yes he, he wanted to grow, and things happened that led to the table wines, needing to be developed ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... and Bob Red, Bob White, Robert Mondavi Red, Robert Mondavi White ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... and then that evolved, and then that gave us ...

Doug:
Great products.

Tim:
... the scope.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tim:
It was, and it was a new category. It was a new category at the time.

Doug:
It was great, hey had really good solid wine, and not too expensive, and it's-

Tim:
Oh yeah.

Doug:
... man, it was wonderful.

Tim:
It was a brand new category of its day ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... but then we also did have Opus One develop in '79, in '93 we did go public and that allowed us to do a number of things, we developed, and I, I led the charge on taking us to Italy, and I had a-

Doug:
That's right, that's right.

Tim:
... tough job Doug, I had a tough job of having to go to Italy, and, so many times ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... and putting up with my, the things like my grandmother's cooking, and so many different areas, and discovering the regions of Italy, and I-

Doug:
It's a tough place to visit.

Tim:
It was a tough place to visit, and I had to, and I ultimately, we chose, I met Vittorio Frescobaldi, and-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... they had many different properties throughout, but the one that resonated with me was their property in Montalcino, and so we developed Luce della Vite there ...

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... and that evolved into a very wonderful relationship with Vittorio, and his son Lamberto, who went to UC Davis ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... a bit younger than me, but we worked together to develop the wines ... and that led to our ownership of Ornellaia.

Doug:
That's right.

Tim:
I tried to talk Lodovico Antinori out of selling this gorgeous jewel, and because it really was absolutely a s- a fabulous thing, he saw what his uncle had done, Lodovico saw what his uncle had done in Sassicaia ...

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... and said, you know, "I can do that too," and he loved America, I think that Piero and Lodovico's grandmother I think was American ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... and so Lodovico asked Andre Tchelistcheff to consult with him in the formation of Ornellaia ...

Doug:
That's right.

Tim:
... yeah, so Gino Zappone, who was an engineer, who had-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... designed Domain Chandon ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... to help build, design the winery of Ornellaia, so there was a lot of, and Chuck House, did the label Chuck House is the ...

Doug:
Yeah, the graphic.

Tim:
... artist that did the, the graphic work on the label, and has done many, many labels throughout this area ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... but so Ornellaia r- was really born of Lodovico's love affair with Napa Valley, and the, and Napa Valley's being for him a realization of a rebirth, the possibility of a rebirth, and Ornellaia really, Lodovico and Piero, adored my father, they adored what they saw him doing ... and Piero's two daughters worked with us as have you ...

Doug:
I didn't know that.

Tim:
... worked with us-

Doug:
That's great.

Tim:
... in, in the tours, and retail ...

Doug:
Oh fun.

Tim:
... and so there's always been a, been a wonderful affection between the Antinoris, and our family, but at any rate, I tried to talk Lodovico out of selling ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... this gorgeous property, but he had had a string of bad luck over the past number of years, and, and he said, "Tim, Tim, yes I've, I've learned two things about myself, one, I love to create things, you know, with my history, my family's history, my love of art, I love to create things, but second, I know that I hate to manage them, I'm terrible at managing, you take it over."

Doug:
There you go. There you go.

Tim:
So we did (laughs).

Doug:
Yeah.

Tim:
We did, and it was incredible, but, and so I learned a lot of things there too, with the, the Frescobaldis, but also there at Ornellaia ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... I became enamored yet again with Cabernet Franc, and Petit Verdot ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... at Robert Mondavi, the wines were inspired by the great wines of, the great Cabernets of the world, meaning the Medoc.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
The Medoc was the only classified wines of the time, um, first growths, and they were rich in Cabernet Sauvignon, a small amount of Cabernet Franc, and, and Merlot and that's what Robert Mondavi followed, but Ornellaia reinforced the importance of Cabernet Franc, and certainly Merlot with their Masetto ...

Doug:
Yeah, Masetto. It's great.

Tim:
... but here, here Cabernet Franc and Petit Verdot did very, very well, so that reinforced my love affair with those varieties, and so it helped impact Continuum, in fact all of our history has helped us there, so.

Doug:
So, getting to Continuum, 2004 comes, Mondavi's publicly held, all of a sudden, yeah, you know, all of a sudden it's a big change ...

Tim:
Oh boy.

Doug:
... and, and you, and Marcia, and Michael, your siblings, you know, you're out, and-

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
But how, that must have been really, really rough ...

Tim:
Oh absolutely.

Doug:
... and how, how'd you, how'd you get through it, how'd you do it, how'd you, how'd you get the gumption to get up and go, and get back on the train?

Tim:
Well, you know, we went public in '93 under one set-

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... of rules, and then the rules changed ...

Doug:
Oh.

Tim:
... and then, Enron scandal took place, and Sarbanes-Oxley came in, and our outside board looked upon us as insiders, insiders were out, so ...

Doug:
Oh.

Tim:
... bit by bit my father's name was overused, and that led to a long period of anguish ...

Doug:
Hmm.

Tim:
... of seeing the equity that my, that the, the shift away from clarity of focus.

Doug:
Hmm.

Tim:
I think my grandfather was successful, because he had clarity of focus, my father was successful because he had clarity of focus, but then after the rules was changed, our outside directors overused my father's good name, and dissipated that, and so we hit some bumps, and boom there it goes, but it was a long time coming ...

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... and so we were at very heavy hearts, and, but as I, I have discovered, if, if you are going to have a heavy heart, it's nice to have a bag of money ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... and we did have a bag of money ...

Doug:
Well good.

Tim:
... and that allowed us to carry forward with his dream of producing, continuing this trajectory that my grandfather got us going, my father continued up ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... and we have just carried it upward in a very small way, in a very small way with Continuum ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... we have carried on the best, with the best of what my family stood for, and have focused all of our attention on this one wine, and that has been very inspiring for me, and very gratifying to see that when I was trying to get our board to understand the importance of clarity of focus ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... and they said, "Oh, well, you're the silver-tongued artiste.," you know?

Doug:
Wow!

Tim:
Yeah, you know, you know nothing about business, and I used to say, "Well, you know, maybe they probably knew the balance, you know, the balance sheet better than I did, they had no idea what they were balancing their sheet on."

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
Um ...

Doug:
It's called, you call, you, you call it clarity of focus, I call it brand ...

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
... and, you know, you, we, you protect it, I mean it's sacred.

Tim:
Oh, absolutely.

Doug:
Everything.

Tim:
Absolutely.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tim:
It is, it is ...

Doug:
Yeah.

Tim:
... it is your identity.

Doug:
It's, identity, right.

Tim:
It is your identity.

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
You've got to build it, and you've got to protect it ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... and you have to f- keep it focused. So at any rate, so Continuum is born of this commitment to have this estate, a single estate, and the single wine from this fabulous estate they're just up the hills from you here.

Doug:
You t- you probably look down on me, you can go out in the edge of your vineyard ...

Tim:
(laughs).

Doug:
... and you probably, you know, spy on me or something.

Tim:
Well, it, it is a gorgeous property, and-

Doug:
But it's up on Pritchard Hill.

Tim:
... we are also, we are Oakville with altitude.

Doug:
Oakville what altitude.

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
That's right.

Tim:
Now we have 173 acres of land, we currently have 62, well ultimately we will, when we grow up and be big one day, we'll have 70 acres of vines ...

Doug:
Wow! That's a great size.

Tim:
... and we will be quite, quite a bit smaller than we were with Opus One ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... or quite a bit smaller than Opus, and smaller than any project that we had been involved with at Robert Mondavi.

Doug:
How do you feel about that?

Tim:
I feel terrific about that-

Doug:
Yeah, yeah.

Tim:
... because we can control everything, we've got a superstar team, people that have worked with me, that surprisingly enough, well I should also say that my sister works with me has-

Doug:
Right, that's right.

Tim:
... invested in ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... in Continuum with me, she knew me, and in spite of that is ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... wanted to work with me in this, and there are a number of people that, I've been fortunate enough to have participated, and help make Continuum happen. So ...

Doug:
Well, in- including your kids, you got ...

Tim:
I am absolutely delighted to have five kids-

Doug:
... you gout four, you have five kids working with you.

Tim:
... working with us, and, and also now my sister's son, Brian ...

Doug:
It's fun.

Tim:
... is working with us. So I'm particularly proud of that, he had the opportunity of knowing better, and he chose to work with us ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... in spite of that, so, in which, and he's having a great time, and all of, you know, we all are loving what we're doing, we're very proud of what we're doing, and delighted to be able to work together, and, fight together. Well, we don't really fight, but we do have discussions.

Doug:
No, it's, it's healthy, healthy disagreements.

Tim:
Yeah, healthy discussions ...

Doug:
Yeah.

Tim:
But I think that w- everybody is very proud of what we have accomplished, the 2016 vintage is our 12th release ...

Doug:
Is it the t- I can't believe that.

Tim:
... already, already, time flies when you're having fun ... so we're having a great time.

Doug:
Did you, so you've got a lot of family working with you, you came from another operation with just family, so did you, are the things you learned working with your dad, that you brought to the, now working with your kids, or there are new things you've-

Tim:
Oh boy.

Doug:
... are there, it's a, you know, it's a, it's a wide open question, are there new things-

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
... you're learning now as you go along, you know?

Tim:
Well, I think that clarity of focus is the-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... most important thing ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... and alignment, alignment of all the different vectors ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... to just proper alignment around that, such that everyone within the organization has a, a good comfort level as to what they can do, and what needs to be done, and so I think that, we do have a great spirit, a superstar team, and I get to go out in the marketplace, and present it very proudly, and I get to be involved in the wines, and the vineyards, and get to have people that are f- far better at, counti- I, if I sometimes I get hung up between 8 and 9, and getting to 10 ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... when I count to 10 I'm, it's a good day, but I've got people that, that understand things incredibly well there from a financial perspective, and the, our whole team is dedicated to what we're doing, so we're having a fabulous time with that.

Doug:
That's great, that's great. Well, I see, I see Carissa on the road, you know, here and there ...

Tim:
Yes.

Doug:
... it's great, it's fun-

Tim:
Yes.

Doug:
... because all of a sudden we've had a chance to get to know each other a little bit ...

Tim:
Yes.

Doug:
Best way for fi- folks to find Continuum Wines?

Tim:
Continuumestate.com.

Doug:
Continuumestate.com.

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
Two Us, continuumestate.com ...

Doug:
Got it.

Tim:
... continuum estate is singular, and, yeah we have a website that shows a number of the photographs, a little bit of our history, and what our aspirations are, and, yeah it's ...

Doug:
And, and it's just a one wine every year, or is there another wine?

Tim:
Well, we have, we do everything we possibly can to protect the integrity ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... of Continuum ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... and so we sell the first crop off of our young vines to others, that kind of line up to get fruit from our vineyard, Sage Mountain Vineyard, high on Pritchard Hill, we're the highest average elevation vineyard on Pritchard Hill, and the highest winery on Pritchard Hill ...

Doug:
Work that story, and work it hard (laughs).

Tim:
You gotta believe it, and, but we do everything to protect it, and so we sell the first, the young grapes off of our young vines, for the first few years ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... then bring them in, and then they usually are a little bit on the younger side still-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... and so they go to our second wine from the property, which we call Novicium.

Doug:
Novicium.

Tim:
And Novicium, it's like the novitiate of our estate ...

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... 100% estate, but, you know, or th- basically the young vines and young wine of that, that still shows the promise, but Continuum is, is the main wine, and it is, we do everything we possibly can to protect the, its integrity, and since Continuum is the one wine on which our family's long proud history has a bright-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... future, it's got to be right, and so we are incredibly selective with it ...

Doug:
Good.

Tim:
... and very proud of it.

Doug:
Good. Got to ask you, who's the winemaker.

Tim:
Well, I get to play with it ...

Doug:
Oh, come on man (laughs).

Tim:
... and I also have a, I, I, I get to play with it, and guide it, and direct it, but I've got a fabulous team ...

Doug:
Good.

Tim:
... we have an associate winemaker that works with me, that is a terrific guy now, I've had, anyways, we've, we've got a superstar team ...

Doug:
Super.

Tim:
... all the way through.

Doug:
Well, you know, I, you know, I turned over winemaking to Elias, a heck of a long time ago, and, you know, it, it was probably the best thing for the business we ever did, but boy was this for a few years not making wine was tough as-

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
... far as I'd, you know, 'cause when you're the winemaker, you know, you're the guy ...

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
... you know, you're calling all the shots-

Tim:
Well ...

Doug:
... you're, you know, when to pick, when, what tank you-

Tim:
Yes.

Doug:
... press this ...

Tim:
Yeah, when to pick ...

Doug:
... barrels ...

Tim:
... but I also say that-

Doug:
... all that stuff.

Tim:
... I have again Steve Nelson is our, the associate winemaker now that works with me, he's a terrific guy, I've had the good fortune of working with Carrie Findleton for many years, 10 years actually and, and she has gone to a higher order of pursuing her own family, she has two daughters now, and ...

Doug:
Great.

Tim:
... had the tough choice to be a mom, which I think is the most important thing you can possibly do ...

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
But at any rate, we've had a, we have a, a great team, so, yes I do call all the picks, and yes I am involved in all the blends, and I listen, and defer occasionally when it makes sense to me, (laughs) and ...

Doug:
(laughs).

Tim:
... but ultimately that's my baby.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tim:
I designed the winery, and built-

Doug:
Yeah.

Tim:
... it to cordi- it's my dream cellar ...

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... it really is, so, it's, I've been involved in developing a lot of cellars, I've designed Opus one, designed-

Doug:
That's right.

Tim:
... much of Robert Mondavi Winery, we designed Byron Winery, we designed wineries in Chile, we've designed wineries in, well throughout, and, so Continuum is very simple, it's very focused, and it works.

Doug:
Nice. I've yet to be there, so I'm gonna-

Tim:
You're welcome.

Doug:
... I'm gonna come to-

Tim:
Please ...

Doug:
... take a drive up the hill.

Tim:
... come up. Yeah.

Doug:
I'm gonna drive my car, I won't ride my bike.

Tim:
(laughs) Okay, no don't.

Doug:
It's steep ...

Tim:
(laughing) Don't. It's very steep.

Doug:
Little bit of a personal question.

Tim:
Sure.

Doug:
Y-y-your dad's been gone 11 years.

Tim:
Uh-huh (affirmative).

Doug:
What do you miss about, about having him around?

Tim:
Oh, golly. Oh, he was such an inspiration.

Doug:
Hmm.

Tim:
You know, he would walk into a room and, and it would just light up. And he would always be urging you to go, go, go higher. Go higher and try this, try that. And, I tried to keep on with that same spirit-

Doug:
Hmm.

Tim:
... but he had an energy that just would not quit. And, and a charisma that was endless. And I see that charisma in my children now-

Doug:
Interesting. Yeah.

Tim:
... and, and so they carry that same spirit out into the market. Um, I knew my grandfather Cesare, I knew my grandmother. I'm probably a little bit like my grandfather Cesare and my father was more like my grandmother-

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
... much more gregarious, much more outgoing.

Doug:
Yes.

Tim:
But, there's a little bit of each of them in, all of us, I suppose.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). What do you th-, what do you wish that your dad could've seen? That you've accomplished. 

Tim:
Oh, golly. He, I was able to show him the property before we closed escrow-

Doug:
I was won-, I was wondering about that. Did you get-

Tim:
Yeah-

Doug:
Oh, that's great.

Tim:
... he saw it. He wasn't able to speak, he was in a wheelchair.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
But I showed it to him and you could tell, y-you could tell, you could see his eyes, and we both got quite misty-eyed and touched when I showed him that we were in escrow on this gorgeous property-

Doug:
Hmm.

Tim:
Absolutely gorgeous. So, it was very odd feeling for my family to not have a vine to our name after 2004.

Doug:
I bet.

Tim:
Not, not a, not one vine and, it was a very difficult time, but now, I think he'd be very proud of what we have and, he would say, "You should be much farther along than you are."

Doug:
(laughing)

Tim:
But -

Doug:
Why haven't I seen ... Why haven't you broken ground, yet?

Tim:
... at the same time, we are, I'm very proud of where we are and, you know, it's wh-, we've rebuilt a strong foundation for the fourth generation to carry forward.

Doug:
Well, and, and it's your baby.

Tim:
Yes.

Doug:
You know, Tim? It's, it's, it's, it's Tim Mondavi's place.

Tim:
Well, yes. It is, but it's, it's-

Doug:
I know fam-, I know it's, I know it's family, but still.

Tim:
Yes.

Doug:
I mean, I'm gonna, you know.

Tim:
Well, it also is the ... It is the culmination now of a hundred years.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tim:
So, you know, after a hundred years, we're an overnight success.

Doug:
(laughs)

Tim:
You know, but it, it is the culmination of all the experiences we've had.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim:
In the formation of Opus One, knowing working with the Rothschilde family, working in Chile with Eduardo Chadwick, and Senya. Working in Italy with the Frescobaldis -

Doug:
Right.

Tim:
... and you know, it's all ... It's a culmination of all of that and, yes, my own interpretation of that with my family.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). It's a great story.

Tim:
Hmm.

Doug:
What, what's next? Next generation, the next generation. What's under, what's, what's gonna happen?

Tim:
Oh, golly. Well, yeah. Well, I should also say that I'm very proud of my two sons, Carlo and Dante. They have followed a dream of mine to the Sonoma coast where they have a pinot noir project-

Doug:
That's right.

Tim:
... that they call Raen. R-A-E-N. And Raen is, and they have done a great job.

Doug:
How fun.

Tim:
It is, a very bright, lively, vibrant pinot noir-

Doug:
Pinot noir.

Tim:
... and Chardonnay that both are absolutely outstanding. It's dominantly pinot noir, a small amount of chardonnay. But, I think Carlo and Dante have done a fabulous job with that, and it is beginning to be recognized for the, the very, very high-quality that it is.

Doug:
Good for them.

Tim:
So, and, and I was particularly delighted that one of their wines is called Royal St. Robert. And-

Doug:
Royal St. Robert.

Tim:
Royal St. Robert. And -

Doug:
There's a story there.

Tim:
There is a story there. Carlo often says that his, it was inspired by his grandfather-

Doug:
Okay.

Tim:
... and he says that he was not royal, nor a saint-

Doug:
(laughs)

Tim:
... but inspired them incredibly. And, so Royal St. Robert, and if you look on the neck label it is up, it, there is RGM Heart and Soul.

Doug:
Oh.

Tim:
Because my father used to always tell us, always, "Whatever you do, do it completely. Do it with your whole heart and soul."

Doug:
Hmm.

Tim:
And, and so, Carlo has that on the neck label of each of his individual offerings.

Doug:
That's ... That's great. That's so neat.

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
Ah.

Tim:
So, I'm very proud of that.

Doug:
Well, you should be.

Tim:
Yeah.

Doug:
Way to go, Dad.

Tim:
Oh. Well, yeah, it's ... Again, it's a continuum.

Doug:
A contin- continuum. I love it. Tim, thanks so much for coming in, taking the time.

Tim:
Yeah, Doug. Thank you. It's great fun talking with you-

Doug:
Great.

Tim:
... and thank you for, for doing this podcast. There's a lot of great stories in this valley, and lots of individual personalities and-

Doug:
That's part of the reason I-

Tim:
... thank you for revealing that.

Doug:
That's part of the reason I've been doing it, because everybody ... Even folks I know really well come in and it's like I find something out about them-

Tim:
Oh, of course.

Doug:
... I never knew. It's amazing.

Tim:
Oh, yes.

Doug:
All right, take care.

Tim:
Thank you.

Full Transcript

Doug:
Hey everybody Doug Shafer. Welcome back to The Taste. Uh, we've got a special guests today, almost a surprise guests, guest. He won't, I-

Tony:
(laughs)

Doug:
You can laugh but you can't say it and yet. Because this guy, um, and I have crossed paths many times over the last 10 or 15 years. We have a ton of common friends in this valley and, you know we've never spent any time together. We haven't had lunch, we haven't had dinner. We've been in tasting groups together but that's always kind of strange. So I've been wanting to get together with this guy for a long time. So today's the day, Tony Biagi.

Tony:
Hey Doug, how are you doing?

Doug:
Welcome Tony.

Tony:
Thanks for having me.

Doug:
I'm glad you're here. You know, help me do-do... Is there, because I was racking my brain yesterday. Was there a moment when we first met that you remember?

Tony:
I, you know it's funny, I think you came in... I was working at the St. Helena Wine Center in the early 90s mid 90s, about 93', 94', or 95'.

Doug:
That's where it was.

Tony:
And you came in to buy some wine and I know Dick Grand and Fred Beringer owned the store.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
That was sort of the hot spot in the day.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
My uncle had told me “Get a job in a wine store if you really want to try wines.”, you know. My, my family is from the Peninsula-

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
San Mateo, so I took this job while I was working an internship to work at St. Helena Wine Center and it was sort of the hub.

Tony:
So I met Elias, yourself, Hal Levy.

Doug:
How funny. When was that? Like-

Tony:
That would be 93 to 97 I worked there.

Doug:
Okay, because yes-

Tony:
So I was getting my degree at Davis so I would be there on the weekdays. I'd come over on the weekends and work, so.

Doug:
That's where it was.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
Cool.

Tony:
So.

Doug:
Okay and so fast forward to today because we were talking about this outside coming in. Um, there's kind of different waves of winemaker, winemakers coming through this business, kind of, you know kind of peer groups. You know similar ages.

Tony:
Yeah. Absolutely

Doug:
You know I came in with, uh, with Bruce Cakebread, Heidi Barrett, Cathy Corison, and Tony Soter. Um, Elias was behind me, um, Marco Cappelli and Mia Klein, that was his crowd. Who's, who's your crowd?

Tony:
Strangely enough you know this was, I came out right at the tail end of the 91 recession.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
So I graduated from Davis in 95. But Sal Truchard would be, um-

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
Would be one of my-

Doug:
Sal.

Tony:
Classmates. Um, I'm trying to think Andy Murray down on the Central Coast.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
Not a lot of... It wasn't a big class neither.` It was eight to 10 people that graduated with me.

Doug:
That was it?

Tony:
It was small. And people were looking for different things I think just then in 95. I think you can attest to this with your growth of Shafer subsequent 95.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
That, that whole era, uh, is when people started getting back into the wine industry and, and growing, so. But as I say to some of my peers it was hard when I moved here in 95 with my former wife.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
We were both 22 and 23 years old and we didn't know anybody, so really we ended up hanging out like Tom Rinaldi.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
Whom I consider one of my, you know mentors, as, he's the godfather of my daughter as well.

Doug:
Right. Right.

Tony:
And I just love him and Beverly to death.

Tony:
But that's who we hung out with. There's wasn't a lot of peers in that group, because it was also Davis, as, as you know when you went there it was a Master's Program, so.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
A lot of people were coming in to their second career, and I was one of those kids who choose it to have it be my first career. So, it was funny, it just that a lot more people that were in the Master's Program who came, hung out with older people, or they had kids, or they were already married, and I was not even there yet.

Doug:
Got it.

Tony:
So, and, and then as it turned in like 98 and 99 there started becoming like, um, this younger generation coming in the back end of the valley, Thomas Brown-

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Gauthier and then Ashley Hepworth was, I think moved here about 98, 99.

Doug:
Right. She did Phelps, right?

Tony:
Right, and then Andy Erickson, you know, he, we were friends, and we knew each other quite well, but he went back to Davis to get his degree.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
So really, you know, that's the people I can think of off the top of my head. And, uh, oh Nile Zacherle as well, but Nile will make a beer first.

Doug:
Nile, now he's... yeah.

Tony:
He likes the beer first.

Doug:
He's making great beer now.

Tony:
Yeah, he told me-

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
He told me, he told me he would never make wine when I saw him at Davis, and then he came back and now he's at David Arthur as well making the wines there, as well.

Doug:
So he's still making wine?

Tony:
He came back.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
And made wine, and then he started his brewery as well, so.

Doug:
Right, what's the name of his brewery? It's um...

Tony:
Off the top of my head I can't think of it. It'll come to me during this time we talk.

Doug:
During this thing, so bring so we can, we can give Niles-

Tony:
It's great.

Doug:
A little plug.

Tony:
And the beer is fantastic. But he's always been a wonderful brewer.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
So, I mean I think he worked at Anderson Valley.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
You know making Boont Amber, so.

Doug:
And, uh, and some, the way you're talking about this, is things start to overlap with, with generations in the wine business. Because when I came in the crew before me was... Well actually, actually it was Tony Soter and Randy Mason, and Joe Cafaro, Craig Williams.

Tony:
Yes.

Doug:
That was, they were like the older guys and Elias and I were the younger guys. But all of a sudden within a few years, you know you're, you're in tasting groups together. You see each other and all of a sudden it's kind of the whole thing kind of melts into one big, one big happy family.

Tony:
It, it really does, and that's how we really got to know each other was in our tasting group.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
With Donald Patson, you know James Holland, Ann Moses and Ken Dice, and these same people Craig Williams and I was the young guy in the group, but I begged to beg, to beg to go just so I could taste more wines.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
And I think that's the most powerful thing in wine making, is to taste as many wines as you can to understand. But in reality was just talking to you or talking to James Hall who crafts Patz and Hall.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
You know or Craig Williams who I consider also a mentor, you know cabernet and, and just to hear their stories, and your story is not only about how you craft wine but how they got here.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
You know what is, what's the path.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
Because I think everybody got here in a different way, but I often think that with this business there always seem an underlying connection of, you know maybe not conforming. Trying to do something completely different and just trying to find, be free, because it does allow that.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
In this business, so.

Doug:
So speaking of paths and how we all got here.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
We're going to talk about you today. So born and raised?

Tony:
San Mateo/Belmont, California.

Doug:
Got it.

Tony:
So Peninsula. Fifth generation.

Doug:
Fifth generation?

Tony:
Yeah, my, I have a great-great-grandmother moved to Petaluma post potato famine.

Doug:
Oh.

Tony:
So and then my Italian side of my family moved here right after the earthquake, so.

Doug:
Got it.

Tony:
And I guess there was just something they liked about it. Northern Italian, Irish, you know the, the Petaluma is very well known for poultry and, and, and dairy. And the North, Northern California I guess a lot like Northern Italy.

Doug:
So you're Irish/Italian?

Tony:
Uh, Italian/Irish.

Doug:
Italian. (laughs) I love it.

Tony:
So I like to say that. And my mom like you is from Chicago.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
So she moved out here right in the early 50s, so.

Doug:
And I gotta ask because there's this big great wonderful trucking company called Biagi. Are you guys, are you related to those guys?

Tony:
I all- I always jokingly say I wish I, I was then I wouldn't work for a living.

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
So, you know hauling a lot of Budweiser pays the bills, so.

Doug:
With Budweiser plus they, they haul, they haul bulk wines.

Tony:
They do.

Doug:
So if we're ever, any of us ever selling bulk wine by the vine

Tony:
I remember in the 90s.

Doug:
You know you got takers.

Tony:
They would haul, they would haul for Beringer.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
And they worked on Main Street. Every 10 minutes a truck would leave.

Doug:
Oh yeah.

Tony:
It was crazy, so.

Tony:
B- but the Peninsula born and raised, you know back when the Peninsula, and the Bay Area was a very different place.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Uh, you know it's funny I always, I was telling a story last night to a friend that my baseball field where I played little league.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Is now Oracle. That's where the Oracle World headquarters are.

Doug:
You've got to be kidding me.

Tony:
No.

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
S- so if you ever, when you go down to the Peninsula 101 that was where Marine World was.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
And Marine World of course moved up here to Vallejo, but then Oracle had bought all that property. And like what's this Oracle company, I have no, you know I'm a kid I have no idea what this is.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
And that was sort of our first understanding of what the internet could be or what it would be. But they bought our baseball field. They, they tore this beautiful baseball field and then they gave us fields back but it was never had the same feel.

Doug:
Not the same.

Tony:
So now there's a Mercedes dealership there, and-

Doug:
The whole deal.

Tony:
But it was a very different time. My dad went to the same high school I did, so-

Doug:
What high school?

Tony:
Uh, Serra high school in San Mateo.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
So I mean you know about Barry Bonds and Tom Brady, you know. Tom was an eighth grader when I was a senior, I didn't know him. I knew of him.

Doug:
That's right Brady went there.

Tony:
Yeah, he was an eighth grader and he was a very good baseball player. That's what people don't, some people don't know that. And, so we, I played baseball at Serra as well.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
So we kind of knew that he was gonna, um, be the next great catcher sort of speak.

Doug:
Got it.

Tony:
That's right, yeah he's a left hand hitting catcher, so.

Doug:
Wow.

Tony:
Very, uh, very special. I think he was drafted in the eighth or twelfth round by the Expos or something like that.

Doug:
Interesting.

Tony:
So, yeah, so my dad played football there as well, so.

Doug:
So San Mateo.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
Brother's, sisters.

Tony:
No, only child.

Doug:
Only child.

Tony:
My parents weren't going to have children, and they decided to have me. I often joke, I said "Either, either I scared you out of having anymore, or, or I was perfect.”, so mom you have to tell me, and she often says “You scared us.”, so it was one of those things.

Doug:
Oh man, oh man. You guys, you're bad Tony.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
How about wine in the family. Was it around?

Tony:
It was.

Doug:
Because I grew up with the beer, beer, and bourbon.

Tony:
My parents, my parents divorced when I was very young and I had a very wonderful relationship with my father and my stepdad.

Doug:
Great.

Tony:
I mean playing as many sports as I did they were always at all the games. I played right, I wrestled, played football, and baseball in high school, so it was never a dull moment or a baseball field was never around.

Doug:
Wow.

Tony:
So they had to get along, you know.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
And, and so they would actually, my dad and my stepdad, and my mom would all caravan to games together. They were, they were that close.

Doug:
Nice.

Tony:
So I always never knew the, the acrimony of divorce, but because of that my stepdad came into my life and he was always sort of this, um, uh, sort of bon vivant, just lived, lived a good life.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
You know he's from Arcada, California and he, uh, had polio, one of the last cases of polio in Northern California.

Doug:
Oh wow.

Tony:
So, because of that I think it sort of gave him this life of just sort of lives, lives as won- wonderful life and nothing ever gets him too down or too up. But he loved the greater things in life. I mean he was the first, he moved to Hawaii and worked at the Safeway. The first Safeway that opened. Mike Fisher a good friend, a common friend of ours.

Doug:
Fisher worked at the Safeway at Hawaii.

Tony:
Yeah, that's how they met each other.

Doug:
This is Mike Fisher, he's a, he's a local guy.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
Friend of ours. Great wine lover, always in our tasting groups.

Tony:
Yep. So he, uh, yeah he, uh, they, they came very close friends, so wine is always in the family. So I look back on pictures now, and I didn't know anything really about it.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
And there's Ridge always like, so, because my dad moved, my stepfather moved back to San Jose and lived down in that area. But he'd be going up in the late 60s, early 70s to Ridge and buying the wines. So Ridge was always on the table. I never knew it at the time but I look back at pictures I see Ridge Monte Bello, or, or Ridge Zinfandels, and so he collected, so.

Doug:
Yeah, but so you grew up with wine around the house.

Tony:
I never drank, you know.

Doug:
You didn't drink, you didn't drink-

Tony:
My mom never drank.

Doug:
But it's, but it's there.

Tony:
Yeah, and then my real father, um,-

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
My biological father, uh, we would go hunting every year at Woodbridge, Lodi, and my dad was police officer in San Mateo.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
And, you know he became friends with a lot of younger police officers, whom I call my uncles now.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
But they really weren't, but you know, you, you-

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
Your parents always have friends that around more then probably your true aunts and uncles.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
So-

Doug:
I, I had the same thing.

Tony:
We would go hunt over in Woodbridge for dove, you know it was, it was just a thing that we did. And, but grapes, they had 300 acres and, and, and they would, uh, sell their, their crop to Woodbridge, or, or Gallo.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
And I would just be around it, and it was just always kind of around. And I just knew when I wanted to graduate high school I wanted to be a marine biologist, that was my real goal.

Doug:
Now where did it... Okay but where did that interest come from?

Tony:
Um just took classes as a kid.

Doug:
Because you're playing ball, you're living in San Mateo. I mean you're-

Tony:
I had great teachers.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
You know I really think that.

Doug:
Okay

Tony:
I went to private, uh, high school, but I went to public, you know didn't go to parochial, I went to pri-, you know I went to public high school.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Or junior high school. And there was this professor named Peter Kimbal, a science professor, really got us into science. And then there's another great chemistry professor there. I mean just as a kid just really sort of stoked my interest in this. I really wanted to do this.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
And I just had really good teachers and that's really where it started. That, that sort of knew how to teach, and could, could mentor you, but also be stern with you. You know they understood when to do all of that.

Doug:
I got it.

Tony:
You know we had great, great science class, and I would take some summer school classes because both my parents worked, so I, you know they were, they were like "You're going to do this.", and-

Doug:
Irght.

Tony:
I did a marine biology class where we would take field trips to the coast. I, I mean Belmont is only maybe a half an hour, 35, 40 minute drive from Half Moon Bay over the hill.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
And, so we would be at the, you know the ocean by 10 and in Montara just looking at stuff.

Doug:
Tide, tide pools.

Tony:
Exactly.

Doug:
All that stuff.

Tony:
Tide pools and, and you know, it was just a really exciting place. I mean the Bay area growing I mean it, it really is like a modern day, I think it's like Tom Sawyer in the sense that, you know it's just wild enough that you could get out and get your hands dirty. You know go, go look for frogs or tadpoles, or go fishing. You know and I had family that loved to fish, and you know we'd fish on the Bay. I mean I told some story the other day that, um, I caught a 25 pound Stripe bass right off the pillars at SFO because you could fish the pillars back then. Now because of September 11th everything, you know if you get anywhere near that, they're, they're going to arrest you.

Doug:
How cool.

Tony:
But there was things you could do, you know, so.

Doug:
So, you guys probably, you kids used to go out and watch the airplanes take off.

Tony:
Oh yeah absolutely.

Doug:
I mean that was so damn cool.

Tony:
Sat right there with jet watching.

Doug:
Jet watching.

Tony:
It was amazing. You know kerosene, kerosene taste really good at 5PM, I tell you.

Doug:
(laughing)

Tony:
But no we could my grandparents would take me there. We'd watch planes just take off for hours.

Doug:
Sure.

Tony:
And, now as you, I mean you go there.

Doug:
You can't go near it.

Tony:
It's, it's unbelievable the pillars and cement.

Tony:
So, it was a different time, and you know we could just go around the pillars and fish for Stripe Bass or we'd go fish the northern, uh, Richmond Bridge.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
For, for Sturgeon, and you know we would always be fishing or always doing something out in the, out in the wild, you know. And then got into, my dad got into bike riding, so I biked, I liked to ride bikes with him.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
So I was always outside.

Doug:
I was too.

Tony:
So that all tied into one to be outside.

Doug:
Got it. So marine biology. So you went to Davis?

Tony:
I did.

Doug:
To be a marine biologist.

Tony:
I got recruited, I got recruited to wrestle at Davis.

Doug:
Oh, cool.

Tony:
From, from high school.

Doug:
Really.

Tony:
Yeah, you know I was-

Doug:
Congratulations.

Tony:
I was give a teacher there... Hey, hey I always go back to teachers because I've been very lucky to have a ton of them. Whether it be in this business-

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Or there, there was a professor or teacher by the name of Paul Bristo and I think he teaches, I think he still teaches over at Atwater high school. He would drive from Modesto to San Mateo every day to teach.

Doug:
That's how, that's like a three hour drive.

Tony:
Yeah, and he would sometimes stay in locker room at night.

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
And just because he didn't want to go back into traffic.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
But I think he ended up getting the head football job at, at Atwater, and then be a teacher. But he was my computer science teacher, and-

Doug:
Got it.

Tony:
I had no want to wrestle. I didn't, I just wanted to play baseball and football, and-

Doug:
Well you wrestled in high school but you didn't want to go on with it.

Tony:
No, I didn't want it, I didn't even do it in high school.

Doug:
Oh, okay.

Tony:
It was just a matter of I want to play football and baseball. And Serra is a very, a school that's very known for baseball. I mean Greg Jeffries, Barry Bonds.

Doug:
Got it.

Tony:
All these perfect players, and so if you want to go there you have to focus on it. But I'm, like when we were joking earlier I'm loquacious, I love to talk, probably way too much.

Doug:
No, it's great.

Tony:
Uh, and so the prof-, so Paul Bristo said to me "You can go to, you can go to detention or you can come to wrestling practice, up to you."

Doug:
What did you do to get in trouble?

Tony:
Talked.

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
(laughs)

Doug:
I'm sorry I didn't connect that.

Tony:
I never, never stopped talking. Um-

Doug:
Um-

Tony:
But, so the rest is history and I, I wrestled in a tournament for freshman that weekend and took second place with three days of practice, and it is just something I took to very quickly, and it just got me to Davis, so.

Doug:
That's cool. So did you wrestle at Davis?

Tony:
I did not. I mean I-

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
I was burnt out.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
You know I, I ended up playing baseball for a year, I red shirted, and then I just realized the game had gotten better than me. I mean I think that's the hardest thing with baseball when you just realize you hit a plateau, and people, and some people just keep going, you know.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Playing around, well I had a player that I played with named Danny Serafini was a first round draft pick of the Twins one year.

Doug:
Wow.

Tony:
And the kid just kept getting better and better, and throwing harder and harder, and harder. And, I'm like I keep growing outward.

Doug:
What, what, what position?

Tony:
I played outfield.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
So I played center field and first, but really I could hit. I could always swing a baseball bat, so.

Doug:
I, I got to tell you a story because then, uh, because I remember freshman at Davis, the guy in the room next door to me, next door, you know in the dorm. Became a lifelong, is a lifelong friend but he was on the team.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
Baseball.

Tony:
They had a great program.

Doug:
He's a pitcher. So there was something, it was like, um, I don't know the middle of winter, and you know he wanted, he said “Hey come on throw the ball with me, I need to, I need to start throwing the ball practice starts in four weeks.”

Doug:
So we're going out to just you know, I never played a lot of baseball but, you know I know how to catch a throw. And, uh, he's throwing me the ball and it's like you know it's getting a little harder, a little harder. He goes “Okay now be ready for this one.” I said “Why?”, he goes “It's going to be a curve ball.” I said “What do you mean?”, he goes “Well it's going to start out like way over here, and it's going to end up, you know by your other shoulder.”

Tony:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
And it's like, I was like “Yeah, right.”, he was like “Oh, yeah.” It happened it just, you know it just about knocked me out.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
So it was, it was pretty incredible.

Tony:
No. You know Davis is a division, was a division two school, so you know it doesn't play against Alabama or schools like that.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
But they were the, the series award winner a couple of years when I was there for the best programs. You know they, they would win the most national championships.

Doug:
Wow.

Tony:
But baseball was incredibly competitive there, and, um, I just knew I wasn't good enough. Anyway but a pitch like that, yes absolutely it would have been fantastic.

Doug:
It's crazy, crazy.

Tony:
So, yeah.

Doug:
So, you're at Davis, marine biology doing the gig.

Tony:
And then Ann Noble got me.

Doug:
Ann Noble.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
So Ann Noble, long time professor-

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
In the enology department.

Tony:
Absolutely.

Doug:
At UC Davis.

Tony:
Wine aroma wheel.

Doug:
What class... That's right she did the aroma whil. So what class was it?

Tony:
Uh, vin three.

Doug:
It was vin, okay we called it Vit three when I was there.

Tony:
Yeah, now it's 

Doug:
Vit three, vit three.

Tony:
Viticulture/enology because they just took it off of Vit.

Doug:
It was the intro class.

Tony:
Yeah, it was and I just sort of fell in love with it. I mean I get it. It, it started, as you know it checked all the buttons. Um, you could be outside.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
You know you didn't have to sit behind a desk, and so I said let's do this. So I started in viticulture first, though.

Doug:
Got it.

Tony:
And then I went to work for Larry, Larry Levine in 92 at Dry Creek Vineyards, and I just fell in love with wine.

Doug:
Dry Creek in, in Sonoma.

Tony:
In Sonoma. Yeah, and so I went there and just sort of fell madly in love with it. And you know I think, I was thinking about knowing what I was going to talk with you about what it is and I think you're going to agree with me.

Tony:
There's a certain pirate aspect of harvest. There's this sort of pirate aspect of it's almost a free for all. Of course, you're working incredibly hard and there's a focus, but it is. I mean you see some of the darnedest things during harvest, and I did that year. I'm like this is, this my jam. I like this. (laughs) You know.

Doug:
Oh, because you were at Dry Creek doing harvest.

Tony:
Harvest. Yeah, I worked harvest.

Doug:
Were you, were you, you were at Davis?

Tony:
I took, no I took a quarter off to work harvest to see if I really liked it.

Doug:
Got it. So like fresh-, sophomore, junior year.

Tony:
Sophomore year, 92. I was into my sophomore year.

Doug:
Oh, yeah so you're working in a cell, you're a grunt.

Tony:
I was 19 years old.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
And, you know and just this is, this is for me. I mean there's, I mean you know you seen all types in cellar during harvest.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
They get internships. I mean some guys are rocket scientist, some guys probably shouldn't be anywhere near flammable materials. I mean it just... (laughs)

Doug:
Exactly. They should not be driving a fork lift.

Tony:
Exactly.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
So you get that and I just fell in love with it, so I worked another harvest next year at Hess Collection under Randal Johnson.

Doug:
Oh, Randal is great.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
So he was one of the one, he was one of my guys. He was just a step, step ahead of me, but yeah.

Tony:
Great guy. He took good care of me.

Doug:
Good guy.

Tony:
Again teachers, I mean he, he was very generous with his time with me. And, and then I went to work for the wine store over at Fred Beringer, and again more teachers, Fred Beringer, Fred and Cathy Beringer. Um and a gentleman named Dick Grant.

Tony:
They took me under their wings, and you know they would open wines for me. And, you know Screaming Eagle, they launched Screaming Eagle, they launched other brands.

Doug:
That's right. So this is, so you're still at Davis.

Tony:
Still at Davis working on weekends. I'd drive over, I make my classes on Friday, um, end at 12.

Doug:
End of 12.

Tony:
So I could get there about one or two, over by two.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
It took me an hour and a half to get here.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
Depending how fast I drove. And then I would stock the floor for them for the weekend, because the weekend is of course you know is a mad rush.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
And then I would work the store Saturday, and then Sunday I would work the store myself, and I would close it at five and drive back to Davis.

Tony:
If I had any homework I'd do it in the afternoons at store. As you know now it's different here. I mean now it's year around people.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
But Sundays it's usually slowed down about two o'clock, I could get some work done and just behind the counter. And I would go home and just finish up and go to bed.

Doug:
Man you really, you, you really had it big time. Passionate.

Tony:
I, I, I.

Doug:
You're working and working-

Tony:
I loved it. I loved every bit of it. I mean I always tell people it's just, I think you could agree. I mean it's a fun business. I mean it could be, it could be a tough business too, sales and that. That, that's hard side of it, you know. It's-

Doug:
It's, it's tough.

Tony:
It's very easy to make, it's very hard to sell, and you know you have to understand but people don't get that sometimes I think, but overall I love it. I love everything about it.

Doug:
I think we kind of sometimes, part we, uh, portray the, uh, oh it's wonderful, it's idyllic. It's you know we watch the grapes grow. We, gee we spend a little time making them wine, and then we sit back and relax. Where reality is it's like any other business. You got a lot of things going on. You got to get out and sell it, you got to travel, you got to do this, you got, you know labor, you know everything.

Tony:
And I always think for someone like yourself and the Shafer on your, your day is never over. Someone hears your name in a restaurant, all you want to do in that was maybe not, you know not just completely-

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
Alone, and with your wife or kids. And oh hey Doug how, how was that trip. Are you looking-

Doug:
Uh, you know it's okay. You know that actually it doesn't bother me that much. It doesn't happen that much, people are pretty respectful.

Tony:
Okay.

Doug:
Alright so you're getting out of Davis in when?

Tony:
I got out in 95.

Doug:
95, this is funny. So you're getting out of Davis in 95. In 95 God I'd been here for, I just kind of, I love to do this thing with you guys, you know different, different eras. Because I was in the thick of here, had been for years at Shafer.

Doug:
Okay, so, so out at 90-

Tony:
What year did you come back winery?

Doug:
I, I came back to the winery, so I graduate Davis 78, 9, got a teaching credential, went to Tucson taught school for two years. Came back to Napa in 81, worked with Randy Mason at Lake Spring Winery.

Tony:
Okay.

Doug:
Over in Yountville for two years and then joined Shafer in 83.

Tony:
Okay.

Doug:
Hired Elias in 84.

Tony:
So your dad made the 78.

Doug:
Well.

Tony:
That's, that's a legendary bottle of wine.

Doug:
Yeah, it is a legendary bottle of wine. It's still really good, and yeah you know I'll give him credit for it. He kind of didn't but boy he grew the grapes. He was a hell of a grape grower.

Tony:
So.

Doug:
And, uh, but it was custom crushed at Markham, fermented at the old, uh, the Old Round Hill which was on Lodi Lane. You probably don't know that.

Tony:
No.

Doug:
Round Hill's original place was on Lodi Lane.

Tony:
Interesting. Oh, where was it at? The White Barn?

Doug:
Uh, halfway across, um, on the south side. I think they've turned it into a house or something like that.

Tony:
Okay.

Doug:
There was like a barn, yeah.

Tony:
Huh, interesting. That's funny I, I did not know that at all. That's so cool.

Doug:
A guy named Charlie Abella, the place was owned by Ernie Van Asprin who ran Ernie's Wine shop.

Tony:
Yeah, Ernie's Liquors.

Doug:
Ernie's Liquors, San, San Mateo.

Tony:
Tom Rinaldi worked there.

Doug:
Rinaldi worked there at Ernie's Liquors?

Tony:
Oh yeah, yeah he totally did. Absolutely he did.

Doug:
Alright speaking of Tom Rinaldi, so you're out of Davis and what happens?

Tony:
Yeah, so again it was right coming out of the recession.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
And, you know I put my resume out everywhere. I had two years experience in harvest and there was nobody hiring. Nobody.

Doug:
Oh man.

Tony:
And luckily because of my wine store connection Fred and Kathy Beringer, Mark Beringer said "Hey I had a guy leave.", and I said "Who would leave Duckhorn?", "Well they're going to Silver Oak." And remember back in the day if you got a job at Silver Oak... I mean people don't realize it. You know wineries like Bryant Family or Harlan didn't exist.

Doug:
Didn't exist.

Tony:
Shafer, Duckhorn, Silver -, those the, the wine. If you got a job there it was like hallelujah. I mean these are real companies that are in, sometimes that have retirement plans, I mean crazy stuff.

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
Healthcare. You know stuff that you know-

Doug:
What a concept.

Tony:
What a concept, you know crazy. But I mean that's-

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
What you look for a little bit. And, um, Mark Beringer said "Hey we just lost our cellar worker, he's going to be the cellar master at Silver Oak."

Doug:
So Beringer was at Duckhorn.

Tony:
He was assistant winemaker to Tom Rinaldi.

Doug:
Got it. Okay.

Tony:
So, and then, um, they said we have cellar job, you're going to start in the cellar, is that okay. I know you have a degree. I said "Sure".

Doug:
Sure.

Tony:
Funny, funny enough I got offered another job by Greg Upton who was at Franciscan at that time.

Doug:
Oh, Franciscan.

Tony:
And I had interviewed him a couple of times because he had remember the Cuvee Sauvage Chardonnay that they made at Franciscan.

Doug:
That was big.

Tony:
The first time I ever heard about wild yeast.

Doug:
Wild yeast.

Tony:
You know, yeah, and so I'd interviewed him and, and we had hit it off, and I, and Duckhorn offered me a job first and I took it, so.

Doug:
Wow.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
Quick sidebar on Greg Upton. He was a pretty, yeah he was at, uh, was he at Schramsberg?

Tony:
I think he did come from Schramsberg to Franciscan.

Doug:
Yeah, okay. So I think Elias had an internship there years ago too. Okay everybody still is connected.

Tony:
No, it's funny, and he was great, um, and, and he again one of those winemakers that came into the wine center that I was pepper with questions left and right. And just, again somebody like Elias who, who I looked up to as, as someone I go "Whoa that's Elias Fernandez he makes wine at Shafer, oh my gosh.", you know.

Doug:
That just cracks me up so much.

Tony:
I know, I know, I know.

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
I can see why you say that.

Doug:
It's just, it's just Elias, man.

Tony:
Yeah, it's Elias but I was young kid and I just, these guys were some of the giants.

Doug:
Well no it makes sense because, it makes sense because Elias had started here in ‘84 right out of Davis.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
Um, and right at, and he and I you know worked side by side. I was the winemaker, he was the assistant, big deal. But, but right in ‘95 when you were getting on the scene, he, you know we, he became the winemaker and I became president, so he was the guy, you know.

Tony:
Yeah, I know and it was great because I would pepper him with questions. I always said I was like the little kid who asked too many questions. They all wanted to beat up their little brother.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
All I wanted to know was more, you know. And I see these guys like Bob Levy, you know Marco Cappelli who-

Doug:
You did ask a lot of questions. I remember you in the, in our tasting group.

Tony:
I did.

Doug:
Yeah, you were, yeah.

Tony:
I do, I do. I'm just always trying to figure stuff out. And I just realized there are no answers in the wine business.

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
There's just more questions. But, um, yeah I went to work at Duckhorn.

Doug:
So who, did you interview with Rinaldi or Mark?

Tony:
I didn't, well Rinaldi... I interviewed with Mark, I interviewed with Tom, and I interviewed with Dan at the end. And, um, Tom, it's funny, called Ann Noble and, and Ann Noble said like you know he would be a handful for anybody but you Tom. And if you know, if the listeners out there know Tom, um, Tom, Tom is Tom. I mean he is very much himself.

Doug:
Tom was the original winemaker at Duckhorn.

Tony:
Yep.

Doug:
In 1978. Their, their... Duckhorn's first vintage was ‘78 Merlot and it was the, there's always a couple of hot ones every year. It was so, this is ‘81, or ‘80, ‘81. Their ‘78 Duckhorn Merlot was the hot wine.

Tony:
Yep.

Doug:
Um, I, I, you know I'll put in a plug for Shafer. The Shafer ‘78 Cab was well regarded wine at this time.

Tony:
Yeah, well guys are both class of ‘78, right?

Doug:
Yeah we were class of ‘78.

Tony:
It was Duckhorn, you guys, who else was there in ‘78. There's somebody else.

Doug:
Uh, I can't remember.

Tony:
Is Jordan, or was Jordan earlier? Jordan might have been earlier.

Doug:
I think Jordan was earlier.

Tony:
Okay.

Doug:
But boy that Duckhorn Merlot that was, that was the first one, you know.

Tony:
Yeah, he's cracked it for me a couple of times.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
It's phenomenal.

Doug:
Yeah, but nobody was making varietal Merlot.

Tony:
No.

Doug:
So it was really-

Tony:
No, and that's an interesting story. I mean personally I would love to see here on is Ric Forman to tell his story about how. Because I mean Dan was really influenced by Dick, oh I'm sorry Rich-

Doug:
Ric, Ric.

Tony:
Ric Forman, uh, we'll go to Dick Steltzner later.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
But Ric Forman and, um, he really pushed to have them grow Merlot, and Ric was really who turned Dan onto Merlot.

Doug:
Ric was a winemaker at Sterling.

Tony:
Sterling, yeah. And he made some wonderful wines in the ‘70s for, for Sterling.

Doug:
Oh, I didn't know that.

Tony:
So, yeah and I think he actually helped Tom get hired, and he said "You should hire this guy, you know he's really talented.", and then so Tom got the job.

Tony:
But, uh, yeah so when I interviewed with all three of them and, and I, I got the job and-

Doug:
So Duckhorn in ‘95. How many cases?

Tony:
Well that's funny because that's really why I think a lot of us. I mean that's sort of the expediential growth of, of-

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Of California wine. I think we were doing 350 tons at the, at the time.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
It was very small.

Doug:
Yeah, yeah.

Tony:
I mean a very, very doable-

Doug:
That's, uh,-

Tony:
25, 30,000 cases at the most.

Doug:
Yeah, 25,000 thousand cases.

Tony:
Most of it was Merlot. Napa Valley Merlot and Sauvignon Blanc.

Doug:
Sauvignon Blanc.

Tony:
A small amount of Cabernet, and then, um, uh, Three Palms Merlot, and those were the main things. And then a second label called Decoy.

Doug:
Right. So cellar was Rinaldi, Mark Beringer, you-

Tony:
Bob Mclearny.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
And then the Hurtado Family.

Doug:
Oh, I remember Bob. I haven't seen him-

Tony:
Yeah, Bob and Kelly Duckhorn were married.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
And, the Hurtado family and most of the Hurtados are still there, which is great. They're just a great Hispanic family from Pesimero in Mexico which is in Michoacan.

Doug:
Got it.

Tony:
And just loved work, and they were amazing. Working with them is just, it was-

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
It was the... I look back on it now, and you know you're young and it's probably like you do. I'm ever going to work for the family winery, you know. When I left Duckhorn, oh, you know I'm going to go make my fortune. But now look back on it so fondly, and how much information I got to take in. It was the best job. Dan Duckhorn was incredibly generous with his staff.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
I mean retirement plans, with the, the best healthcare, best vision, but he was also just very good. There's so many things that I learned but the reality was it was sort of the turn of time when you finally started really... Now if you go to Europe and say, you know the influence of, of wine making in viticulture is going to be the same person almost.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Um, that didn't really, I think you could speak to this more than I could Doug because you saw it. You had viticulture or you had the guys working the grapes, and you had the guys making the wine.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Back in the ‘70s and ‘80s in Napa.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Where that's when the turn started happening where we started going out more with, you know and I would beg Dan and Alex, Alex Rhine.

Doug:
Alex Rhine.

Tony:
Alex Rhine was the president.

Doug:
That's right.

Tony:
And you know he was in charge of viticulture at the time. Could I just ride with you guys on Sundays.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
You know my day off of harvest could I go with you guys, go see what you're looking at. And they looked at me like sideways. Like why, why? I said "Well because I want to see."

Tony:
And so they would give me an almond croissant from Model Bakery and an Odwala and just say don't say anything in the back.

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
I just sat there for like four hours. I'd just drive around the vineyards and I mean I think Dan Duckhorn doesn't get enough credit for so many things, in, in this valley. And one of them was how wine is sold, I mean he's a genius.

Doug:
Oh he was great.

Tony:
California winery direct.

Doug:
Great on the, great on the road.

Tony:
For the wine at the very beginning.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
And then vineyards. He knew great dirt.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
And I would just listen to what he would be looking for, and just the staple of vineyards whether there would be spots where they were making wine from Vine Hill Ranch.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Or, um, Jean Phillip's piece. I mean just these great ranches that, that at the time they were growers, they weren't wine makers.

Doug:
Well they were just growers, and you speak to something that happened, because I've kind of been here-

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
A little bit few years before you. That's kind of what was going on. So, at least here at Shafer, I mean the ‘80s were... You know I can't speak for the rest of the Valley but for us, and I think a lot of us, like in the ‘80s we were just trying to figure out how to make wine.

Tony:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
We were trying to figure out how to make wine that was good, solid, hopefully great, but at least good and dependable, and stable, and not going to blow up in the bottle. And so the, the attention in the vineyard was kind of minimal because we were just, we had our hands full.

Tony:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
And by the early ‘90s we kind of, not that you ever have it down, but it's like okay we felt pretty confident with what we're doing wine making wise. And then we started looking to the vineyard along with, that's when the whole, you know the Phylloxera thing had happened, and replanting, you know it happened in the mid to late ‘80s. And, so all of a sudden wine makers are going out in the vineyard and had a lot more input. You know, I know I'm sure with you-

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
Well you're, you're the same way. Elias it, it's summertime now and he's in the vineyard.

Tony:
I just looked through the vineyard that we, that one of my clients, uh, Michi buys.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
In Stags Leap, I just went there real quick to look at the crop load and see how it looks, how the set was.

Doug:
Hey, you walked in here, you got, you got a tan. You got, you got dirty boots, and dirty hands, you've been out in the vineyard.

Tony:
We always joke, We always joke-

Doug:
You're a winemaker.

Tony:
That when we go on, you know when, when you go on, a, a, a wine sales trip you, you stain your hands red, and say, say I do work in the winery.

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
So, uh, but yeah, so we still do it. I mean that's the best part of it, really walking vineyards and being outside.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
And seeing things. I do believe sometimes there's a watched pot aspect, they go watched pot never boils.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tony:
So sometimes you just let nature do its thing, but it is nice to get out there and look at the crop loads and understanding what's happening.

Doug:
Well we've learned that you can see things happening, and you know early to mid, to late June they're going to affect harvest.

Tony:
Yep.

Doug:
That's a chance you got some abilities to affect some things to help you out at harvest.

Tony:
Especially crop load.

Doug:
Crop load.

Tony:
I mean you know you can see if everything is on top of each other now. But you know we're looking at, because you know we had a rain, late rains this year.

Doug:
It's big this-

Tony:
And just see what the set looks-

Doug:
Is it, we're looking like it's big again.

Tony:
It's up and down.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
I see some vineyards that are loaded and some vineyards that are really loose clustered.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
And I think it's just matter, and you know that's the funny thing about the business it's when they were, when it was flowering when the rain.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
It was not flowering, and then it flowered a week later, well that's a big margin. 

Doug:
That's a big -.

Tony:
But if this was out then you know they'll clutch together.

Doug:
Then you got-

Tony:
You know one of my clients again Sonoma, Chardonnay, and Pinot Noir. One of my assistants was out there today-

Doug:
They down.

Tony:
He just said they're down at least by 10, 20 because they were in the middle of flowering their grapes.

Doug:
Yeah, our, our Carneros Chards, you know it, it's not, it's not a crisis, but yeah it's not, it's kind of normal, below normal which is fine.

Tony:
But the red, some reds look heavy.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
So.

Doug:
Which is kind of crazy to you people out there because last year 17 was really heavy year. No, ‘18-

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
Last year was ‘18.

Tony:
‘18, yeah.

Doug:
Pardon me. ‘18 was a really heavy year for everything, and normally you don't have two heavy ones in a row, but.

Tony:
You don't but again that rain-

Doug:
But we might.

Tony:
That weird rain which I haven't seen.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
You know that was a lot of rain for late-

Doug:
Late in the Spring.

Tony:
And there was rain during, uh, the auction before.

Doug:
That's right.

Tony:
And ‘98 was one year. I think ‘11 it might have been another one, but that was a lot of rain.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
I mean it's still wet. The profile of the ground is still wet. I was talking to, uh... You know it's always fun to go to farmers markets, because just to see what they're seeing.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
You know I had bought some Padron peppers from the gentleman. He goes "Yeah, those are grown in the greenhouse. I can't get my pepper plants in the ground yet, the grounds is still wet."

Doug:
It's still too wet.

Tony:
They just planted their tomato plants, so it's just, you know.

Doug:
That's a good tip, go to the farmers, talk to the farmers.

Tony:
See what they're doing, what they're seeing.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
And, so well I, you know Alex Ryan taught me a lot about the simple things. Look, look at the buckeyes, you know look at, look at the blackberry bushes. How heavy are the blackberry bushes. And there's kind of these little indicators are, are the leaves falling yet in the trees.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
What is the harvest, you know is it going to be an early fall or not. Does it always work, no, but there are some interesting things that you can see.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
I can see a correlation.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
So.

Doug:
Well yeah they're plants.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
So back to Duckhorn. You're in the cellar.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
Your, you're at the team. You're there, you're at Duckhorn for how many years?

Tony:
Six years.

Doug:
Six years.

Tony:
Six years. Yeah, and started, started as a cellar worker, ended as a winemaker of Parraduxx, and assistant winemaker at Duckhorn. But, you know and that, that entitled, their growth was you know, was

Doug:
It was cranking.

Tony:
And it, it was crazy and it was, I always look back so fondly because they gave me enough rope to hang myself, you know.

Doug:
Well.

Tony:
And my toes hit the ground but I mean I, I-

Doug:
(laughs) That's a great, that's a great visual.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
Well I've got to ask one thing about Duckhorn, Dan before we go. And Dan Duckhorn was great, great guy. We all love him in this Valley. And, uh, did he ever take you fishing?

Tony:
He never took me fishing, but he did, I did drink a lot of Pinot Noir with him, you know.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
He fell, he fell madly in love with Pinot towards my last couple of years there. They went and made you know the Golden Eye purchase up in Mendocino County.

Doug:
Got it.

Tony:
And, um, and he just saw this vision, of, of Pinot Noir, he really did.

Doug:
Well you, you know the story about going fishing. He had a place where? In Montana, or Idaho or somewhere?

Tony:
Idaho I think.

Doug:
But Pete Provensinsky -

Tony:
Oh yeah.

Doug:
A sales guy who's a good buddy of mine tells a story. He'd take a couple of you guys up there to go fishing, quote go fishing, and basically had this place and he'd, he'd make you, he'd make them all work for like four or five hours every day.

Tony:
That's-

Doug:
Cutting weeds, painting-

Tony:
He tells it like that.

Doug:
Yes.

Tony:
Yeah, exactly. You get the fish in the morning and the afternoon but what are you going to do in the mid-day.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Cut weeds.

Doug:
You guys are going to cut weeds.

Tony:
So, he's hilarious, I mean your father, Dan Duckhorn, that generation is, is, is so interesting to me, just the entrepreneurial spirit.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
I mean it, now you move here and there's, there're templates of like Harlan, and templates of Colgin or Bryant, or one of these wineries that just say "You know I want to be next this cult wine." Which you know cult wine drives me bananas because-

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
I mean what's a cult? I mean you can say Sine Qua Non is a cult, and you could say Hillside Select is a cult wine. I mean it's just, I think it’s been overused.

Tony:
But, um, Dan was just amazing. I mean those, I mean he's just, I don't think you can really ever create a character and fix him like him.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
You know he's just, just a genius in so many ways, and just saw the world in such a different way, and, uh, especially in the wines. And I learned so much from him about ground, and I wish there was more people... Anyway I think a lot of people, Tony Soter. It's funny how the, the time sort of passes on and these people aren't championed more. I think people are always looking to the future, who's next.

Doug:
Uh.

Tony:
Whereas, but Tony Soter is another person.

Doug:
I know.

Tony:
You know, you know him well.

Doug:
And he's, yeah, and he was, he was my-

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
And he was my guy.

Tony:
And so-

Doug:
He, uh, not my guy, but boy he helped us tremendously.

Tony:
And he's just a genius, and I look to him like, you know I wish people, more people would still talk about him now.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
And, but Dan Duckhorn I think just overall showed me how to build a brand, and he was so good to his employees. I mean I, I look back on that time and it just almost brings, you know tears to your eyes, because how fun it was.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
It was so much fun, and it was just growing exponentially, actually almost doubling every three years. You know but finding the great grapes, finding the great fruit. You know equipment, budget, by whatever you need.

Doug:
Whatever you need.

Tony:
Yeah, and it was just great.

Doug:
So I got a story. One more story-

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
About Dan.

Tony:
Do it.

Doug:
No, one more story about Dan.

Doug:
I'm at some dinner at Napa Valley Wine Auction, it's Thursday night. It was co-hosted by Shafer, Duckhorn and some other wineries, so it was a big group 70-80 people. So I'm having a glass of wine and talking to Danny, and he goes "Shafer, Shafer." I go "What?" He goes "I got this new thing, we're doing this new thing. We're releasing it in six weeks." I go "What?", and then he whips out a label and it's this thing called Paraduxx. I go "What's that?", he goes "Oh, it's awesome, man. Wait it's a blend of Zinfandel and this and that and the other thing." I was like, I remember driving home and he was all excited about it. I'm driving home that night going "What a dumb idea, that ain't going to work at all."

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
And boy was I wrong. So Paraduxx.

Tony:
Well it's funny.

Doug:
So you became-

Tony:
It's funny you should say that.

Doug:
So you became the winemaker of Paraduxx?

Tony:
Yeah. It's funny you should say that because I always give Dave Finney, he always laughs at it, because you know the Prisioners basically didn't sell.

Doug:
Anything, right.

Tony:
Right. He goes, yeah he's all "Dan did it first but I just did it better."

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
No he's joking. Anybody who knows Dave Finney, he's one of the nicest guys in the world, but-

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Um, yeah you know he had this idea of, of Zinfandel and Cabernet and based off of Sassicaia, and the, the super-

Doug:
Yeah super Tuscans.

Tony:
Tuscan wines. And, so I was, you know they said you should do... You know you're going to be the winemaker here and I was 25 years old.

Doug:
Wow.

Tony:
And, okay.

Doug:
That's pretty, that's pretty cool, man.

Tony:
I mean yeah it was just fun, and it was a really fun blend. You know the blend I think we ended with was like 60/40.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
About Zin and Cab, or Zin and Merlot, Cab, and that really worked and then they built the winery down in, um, down in Yountville. What I consider one of the best pieces of property that Rector Creek pieces. Pure rock and, and cobble.

Doug:
How much vineyard do they have there?

Tony:
Oh, I've got to think it's 40 acres.

Doug:
Oh wow.

Tony:
45 acres. It's a huge piece of ground.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
In reality it's just on the backside of Screaming Eagle. I mean it's just you know the big-

Doug:
It's right there.

Tony:
The little mountain right there separates the left to the right, but it's the same flow.

Doug:
Same, same microclimate.

Tony:
Up Pitchard Hill.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
You know, so great dirt, great dirt. And, again that's what Dan did is he put together, he cobbled together all these great vineyards that they bought. Because remember he was a buyer. I mean he was, he was a negotiator.

Doug:
Big time buyer. He didn't by vineyards for a long time.

Tony:
No.

Doug:
In fact I do remember seeing him and he said boy, he actually said, he didn't say I, I blew it, but he said I, I should have been buying vineyards. I'm going to start doing it now.

Tony:
And he bought some great pieces of dirt.

Doug:
And he really went after it.

Tony:
You know the piece next Spot, across the streets from Spottswoode, or next to David Abreu’s Madrona Ranch, stunning. Um, Monitor Ledge, Rector Creek, Stout up on Howell Mountain, and all those vineyards are just, they are top notch.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
I mean, I learned so much from him, and Alex too. I mean and Tom and Mark, all four of those guys I mean a lot to me I learned so much.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
And, and you know I asked a ton of questions, um, you know never got in trouble too bad, you know. (laughs)

Doug:
(laughs) You didn't have to stay up, but you didn't have to wrestle.

Tony:
But, yeah exactly. Oh, no Tom tried to wrestle me once, it didn't go well.

Doug:
Not for Tom, no. (laughs) So, so your Paraduxx you're winemaker, so how long were you at Paraduxx.

Tony:
Uh, while we were making Paraduxx, the wine was at-

Doug:
You're right.

Tony:
We were making it at, at, uh... Sorry I get all these names confused.

Doug:
It happens.

Tony:
Duckhorn and then I finished the ‘97, made the ‘98, and ‘99. 2000 is the first time that you know really they said you're, you're the winemaker, but I was making those wines.

Doug:
Got it.

Tony:
I had moved up to the winemaking role with Tom.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
So, it was sort it, everybody sort of named those roles. And, but Tom had moved on in 2000 so Mark was the winemaker until then. But I basically, Mark was really focusing on the Bordeaux Reds with Tom. I was focusing on that with, that.

Tony:
So, 2000 is when I got the big title.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Sort of speak.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
But, um, I worked on it the whole time, from the very first vintage. ‘94 was the first vintage.

Tony:
So, it was really fun. It was a great opportunity. I mean and again just working with -, we were taking Vine Hill Ranch Cabernet and blending it with Zinfandel.

Doug:
Oh, man.

Tony:
So I mean it was great that's why the wine was so good.

Doug:
It was a really good vineyard.

Tony:
Yeah absolutely. So, then in ‘01, um I had an opportunity to leave, and I just, I didn't want to be there my whole career. I wanted to see other things and I got to.

Doug:
But you were there for what?

Tony:
Six years.

Doug:
Six years. Six years.

Tony:
Yeah, then I went to work for Mark Neil for two vintages, and helped him get his winery off the ground. Uh, a really fun time. I still do a lot of business with Mark, big grower here, and Jack Neil and Son.

Doug:
Big Jack, now, but Mark's place is over in Pope Valley.

Tony:
No, on Howell Mountain.

Doug:
It's Howell Mountain.

Tony:
Howell Mountain, yeah. Right off of Liparita Road.

Doug:
Got it.

Tony:
So, but he was buying fruit from all over the Valley. And we got the brand going and, and then I had the opportunity to go to PlumpJack in ‘03. I turned 30 and I got offered the job and I took it.

Doug:
That's wild. So PlumpJack was the first one of a now-

Tony:
Three.

Doug:
Three.

Tony:
Or four now. Yeah, four now that, uh, they, they have.

Doug:
It's the, uh, PlumpJack, Cade-

Tony:
Odette.

Doug:
Odette.

Tony:
And then they bought Ladera and then they called it. I think they called it the Thirteenth.

Doug:
That's right they did by Ladera up on Howell Mountain.

Tony:
Which is a stunning piece of dirt on Howell Mountain.

Doug:
Yeah, it's gorgeous.

Tony:
Yeah, and that was, again it was... I think you can go back to anything and Doug I think you would agree with me. It goes, it all starts and ends with land.

Tony:
And that PlumpJack piece, the McWilliams vineyard was, the home of Mt. Villa Mt. Eden.

Doug:
Villa Mt. Eden back in the old days.

Tony:
Is an unbelievable piece of dirt.

Doug:
It's a great-

Tony:
It really is and it's the backbone of that wine.

Doug:
Well that's right down Oakville Crossroad close to the Trail, which is again-

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
Near that, is that whole-

Tony:
We call it the, the, sort of you know the tenderloin, which is you know would be Rudd behind him, St. Eden for Bond right to the right of him. Then Tierra Roja on the hillside. To the north of them I think it's Fortuna vineyard for, um, oh, oh I'm drawing a blank.

Doug:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fortuna.

Tony:
Turnbull.

Doug:
Turnbull.

Tony:
And then you have Screaming Eagle, you have Tench.

Doug:
And then you go up the hill and right up to Dalle Valle.

Tony:
You can see the house from there, and so-

Doug:
Bacchus.

Tony:
That red dirt is very, very, it's very-

Doug:
Red dirt is cool.

Tony:
Special.

Doug:
I know.

Tony:
You know and so I just, and they gave me free rein. Nils was there as a consultant, but he really gave me free rein to do what I wanted.

Doug:
That was Nils Venge who was a winemaker at Villa Mt. Eden forever.

Tony:
Yeah, that's why they hired him back in ‘95.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
Because they wanted to bring him back to the property. And, and I, they never had a full-time winemaker there until I came on board in, uh, ‘03. So they had, they had an associate winemaker but never a full winemaker.

Doug:
That's really cool man. So they start PlumpJack and you were the winemaker. You were the first at it.

Tony:
Well it started in ‘95.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
So it did, it did roll, but then they finally, John Connover who was the general manager and still is a partner in the business, uh, felt that they needed a full time person there.

Doug:
Got it.

Tony:
You know Nils was consulting in other places. They needed to have someone to really watch out after the -

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
That facility, and, and it was blast. I mean, uh, Gordon Getty of course and Gavin Newsome. This was right when Gavin was elected Mayor of San Francisco. To watch all the politics work, and just to be around Gordon Getty and his history, and his story. Um, he was incredibly generous to all of us.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Um, just a very caring, loving man, and allowed us to do whatever, you know really to make the best wine possible. And they really did give me all the tools there. But it really starts and ends with the dirt. I mean you can sort, hand sort, you can do one ton an hour. And it's funny, I think you'll understand this when I'm talking about winemaking. I was talking to Bob Levy, the winemaker at Harlan yesterday and I, I said, I was telling him that, you know when I, when I first got near the PlumpJack all I wanted to do was make Harlan. That's all I wanted, I wanted to be Harlan, you know.

Doug:
Oh, how funny.

Tony:
You know, but it, it, to be honest with you I mean that's I think young and maybe inexperienced and not, not secure enough with yourself. And I really realized after the ‘08 vintage, and I made some wonderful wines at PlumpJack before, the ‘07 was probably my favorite at the time. That you know what I'm just going to make the best wine. I'm just going to start making PlumpJack. I'm not going to worry about anybody else.

Doug:
There you go.

Tony:
I know this property could do things. And it's funny because Bob Levy says you know it's funny you should say that because I often hear people wanted to do everything I do, like we do at Harlan. And I don't he realize, people realize that maybe it doesn't work for you.

Doug:
Well it doesn't. We had a similar experience.

Tony:
Yeah, so.

Doug:
Because in the mid-80s and Mt. Helena was THE Cab.

Tony:
Oh wow, okay.

Doug:
Oh yeah. And so it was like I've got to make, I've got to make wine like Bo.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
I've just got to do it. Come on Elias we can do this. So we would, you know and those were big, brawny, good, you know tannic Calistoga Cabs.

Tony:
Yeah, absolutely.

Doug:
Gorgeous wines, but you know built. You know what I mean.

Tony:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug:
Really had some structure to it and tannin. So we tried everything. We'd pump it over until the cows came home. I mean we'd do everything.

Tony:
That's so funny.

Doug:
We'd press it, we'd do this, we, you know, you know try to get that tannin. Trying to get that tannin. And after a couple of years it's like you know maybe this fruit on this ranch just doesn't do that.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
And once we kind of just backed off and said let's just let this baby blossom on its own the way it's supposed to be. That's when we started to really make some great wines.

Tony:
And that when I really think I came into my own as winemaker. Saying you know let's look at the property, what we could do. Maybe these techniques will work here but they don't work there. And then really just to get out of my mindset of you know... Now don't get me wrong you talk to winemakers and you, you know what are you doing at Hillside Select, you know.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
And maybe I'll look at that, you know or look at this maybe this will work. And I think it's that's what I always love about Napa Valley as much as everybody says it's so competitive, it's so crazy here. When you get behind the scenes and you go out to dinner and so forth, there's a lot of sharing of information. Because I don't have, I don't have Sunspot, you, you know, and you don't have McWilliams vineyard.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
So, no matter what you try to do you're never going to make a Sunspot wine, not a McWillaims, and you're never going to make Oakville Cabernet, you know.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
So, we can share that information as long as you understand that you have something special and I have something special.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Because you'll never, you know... Now To Kalon is a little different because you know there are a ton of people in To Kalon. But I still think people there share information too.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tony:
I never heard, hey what are you, what are you seeing, you know.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
I'm seeing this, or I'm seeing that, so. But it was great and then we started Cade in ‘05, um-

Doug:
Okay so that-

Tony:
We bought the Howell Mountain.

Doug:
So now, you did the Howell Mountain so Cade was the next property.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
So you had been there for a couple of years. So you brought Cade now, are you making the wine up there too?

Tony:
I was overseeing both properties.

Doug:
Okay, great.

Tony:
And, um, when I interviewed they said hey, uh, what do you want to do next. You know what do you want, what, what would you do. I said "We have a valley full of vineyards, you should buy a mountain vineyard."

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
And, so we found this great piece of property undeveloped, and it was... Actually that's not true, it was developed but there was no winery beside it or like that.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
It was, the vine, the Vineclift family owned it.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
And, so they wanted to divest that piece and keep focusing on Oakville, and we were able to get that property. And, uh, we built the winery, uh, Juan Carlos Fernandez was the head architect at the time. He was in Lao's office and now he's on his own called Signum.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tony:
Um, and never really designed a winery before, designed some smaller building. But really got this really cool aesthetic and it was the first time that wine is lead certified, uh, Gold.

Doug:
I think that was the first one.

Tony:
It was the first one.

Doug:
That's great.

Tony:
And just to be a part of that and seeing it, and then the vineyards were organically farmed. It was a really cool synergistic of all the aspects being sort of focused towards that.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
And we had really good success early. Howell Mountain, though I think out of all the appellations I, I would say Mt. Veeder too, and maybe Spring mountain. I think because there's so many different aspects on the mountains. You know you have flat vineyards, you have hillside vineyards. You have shaded vineyards-

Doug:
Different exposures, right.

Tony:
Yeah, I just think that it's just so much more variable. Uh, and I think that mountain vineyards can pull your hair out a little bit at a time.

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
So you have 40 acres of continuous flat piece of ground, granted the soil is subseries or soil profiles are different underneath it. But its not like, uh, hillside that's, that's in the shade at 3PM, and a vineyard that's in the sun until till seven, you know.

Doug:
That's tough.

Tony:
That's been, that was probably the hardest aspect at Cade and I really started getting more into phenolics, looking at that stuff. Because mountain fruit, I remember the first vintage I made at Cade, oh we'll just make it just like Plump, the same thing.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
And it was like I, I'm just like eating pencil.

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
It was so tense, like you're chewing pencil for an hour. Like, really this how we want to go about doing this. I don't think we're going to do this anymore.

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
So, we did that and then, um, towards my end when I started my, when I was going to start and leave to start my consulting career, we found, you know in your neighborhood we found Steltzner. Um-

Doug:
Okay so, when, when was that? What year was that?

Tony:
We started looking at it in 2011.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
Spring of ‘11. So we actually made wine from the property, some experimental wine off the property. And we just saw some things, and it's funny it was on the market for quite a while. And no one would bite on it. And we just you know saw, Dick Steltzner is a character. I mean a legend. Another one of those legendary people.

Doug:
He's a legend. Right.

Tony:
Um, and I kept going to people, mentors that I really trust like Craig Williams and Tom Rinaldi. And they're like "If you can buy fruit from that ranch, you can buy that ranch. You buy that ranch."

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Don't be crazy. Its world class, it Stags Leap. And you know we had some people say "No, you know there's a reason why it hasn't sold. It must not be any good." And we did some testing and we tasted the wines, and we're like "There's something here.", you know.

Tony:
And, and that's where Odette is now. And, and my assistant Jeff Owens went over there to make the wines I consulted for the first two and half vintages.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
And Jeff just took it to the next level. I mean they really, they really unlocked that property, and, and Dave Pirio who's the vineyard, vineyard manager there as well. They, they found it, so.

Doug:
Pirio’s vineyard manager where?

Tony:
At PlumpJack, Odette, and Cade.

Doug:
No, since when?

Tony:
Uh, as long as I was there Dave Pirio was there.

Doug:
Okay sorry. Time out.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
I thought Pirio was at Chapellet.

Tony:
He is but he doesn't, he farms for other people too.

Doug:
I didn't know he was in there.

Tony:
So yeah, and so he's a phenomenal farmer. A very quiet, very soft spoken. Never beats his own drum, or his own horn.

Doug:
Oh, no he's, he's

Tony:
And, and-

Doug:
The sweetest guy ever.

Tony:
So unbelievable farmer.

Doug:
And by the way he's got the best outside shot.

Tony:
Oh does he?

Doug:
In basketball in the world because I played high school basketball with him.

Tony:
I love that. See, there you go, so.

Doug:
He was, he was the stud shooter. I was sixth man. So here's the deal. So, and everybody in the league knew how good this guy was. He was like the, he was like the Steph Curry of-

Tony:
Okay.

Doug:
St. Helena basketball league. We're going way off track here but I don't care.

Tony:
Oh, it's fine. Do it.

Doug:
So, so all the other teams knew how good this guy was, and I was a senior, he was a junior. He was a sweet kid, and he was soft, you know, you know, soft spoken, and, and kind of skinny and slight. Not, not, not a big stud but manly guy who could shoot.

Tony:
Silent assassin.

Doug:
Yeah, and everybody knew it. So all the teams were looking for him. So, our coach during practice since I was the sixth man I'd be, I'd be on the defensive play when we scrimmage. He'd say "Okay, Shafer you're on Pirio.", and he pulled me aside and said "I want you to do everything to this guy. You know paw him, foul him, grab him, pull his shirt when he's jumping up.", you know.

Tony:
Right.

Doug:
Step on his foot, you know just harass him. His nas-, it’s kind of nasty.

Tony:
Poor Dave.

Doug:
And I said, you know I really, we were good friends, I said "Sorry, Dave I've got to do this.", he goes "I know." In other words and it was, it was just a really great time.

Tony:
That's hilarious. You know he never even told me that he played basketball. So, but he's great.

Doug:
Talk to him.

Tony:
I love working with him. I'll ask him when I see him because I haven't talked to him in a while.

Doug:
He, he averaged, you know 20 points a game.

Tony:
Wow, that's big in high school, too.

Doug:
That's big in high school.

Tony:
So, no it's funny. So yeah he's great to work with.

Doug:
Super, okay.

Tony:
Yeah, so he farms all the properties for them.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
It's a great team when you're working with John Connover and then, then the ownership group. It was wonderful, wonderful time.

Tony:
And then I started my own consulting business in 2012, so.

Doug:
So, 2012, so, so did you actually leave those guys in ‘12.

Tony:
I did.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
I left them in June 2012. I just realized that you know I was 40 years old and I needed something different.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Well I'm just doing my own small brand, and, and Dave, you know they were very adamant about you focus on PlumpJack only, and there a lot, a lot of wineries are here. Um, and-

Doug:
That must have been kind of, kind of crazy-scary, because here you got, you know you talked about a secure job. You got your health plan, you got that and all of sudden you're going out.

Tony:
Absolutely. No, and, and I think the hardest part for me and, and, and I talk a lot about this to other people is sometimes you get caught up with your identity and your identity is a PlumpJack winemaker.

Doug:
Hmm.

Tony:
And I think it was, you know it was very hard for me for the first year. Even though I got to go to work for Hourglass, and Jeff and Carolyn Smith, or Carolyn Durant, and Jeff Smith.

Tony:
It was hard because PlumpJack, PlumpJack, PlumpJack it's all that people wanted to talk about it.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
What am I without that. And I had a lot of people going are you sure you made the right decision. Are you, you know this is crazy. Why would you leave that winery, I don't understand it.

Tony:
But in the end, you know I, I left Duckhorn at the same, you know Duckhorn, why would you ever leave Duckhorn. You have it made. You know why would you leave PlumpJack.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
There was something inside of me I just wanted to see if I can do it, and, uh, you know I went to work, Hourglass was my first client.

Doug:
Hourglass with Jeff Smith.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
Great guy.

Tony:
A wonderful guy.

Doug:
They have great wines.

Tony:
But it's back to, um, back to. You know PlumpJack had gotten very large and were back to estate driven again.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
You know too is a estate vineyard. I answer. You know this is, this is... I think you're going to laugh because you're going to agree with me on this. It's hard sometimes as you grow. You, it's almost you're punished for growing and being successful. You start getting layers, and layers, and layers, and layers for businesses, whereas when you start the business it's you and your dad and Elias.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Maybe a tasting room worker and a receptionist. Now you have HR, now you have marketing director, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's like all of a sudden you're starting to answer to more people. You're like well wait a second here, you know that person hired me, you know but why, why am I getting a phone call suddenly from the social media director saying you know you need to mention to us more in your, in your Twitter feed.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
Well what you, huh?

Doug:
No, it's yeah and I used to, I used to, I knew everybody, you know I knew where every bucket was in the cellar. I knew every vineyard worker, now it's there's some guys I don't know that well.

Tony:
That's hard.

Doug:
And it bugs me.

Tony:
It's hard.

Doug:
You know.

Tony:
And, and so for me going small again was, and then having opportunity to make my own wine, and work with a couple of other brands was really exciting for me.

Doug:
So did you start making your own wine right away?

Tony:
Did not. Jeff asked me that to take a year off and focus on Hourglass, and show us you can do that and then the next year you can start. I said that's not a problem.

Doug:
Oh, that's cool.

Tony:
And, so-

Doug:
So he's your first client, was he the first client for a while, did you have others right away?

Tony:
No, 2013 I picked up Senegal.

Doug:
Senegal over on Inglewood.

Tony:
Yeah, the old Jager piece.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
Actually you know those guys.

Doug:
Yeah I do.

Tony:
And David was the owner and great to work for. They gave me a great opportunity there to really get that brand up and running. Then I worked for another brand that was sort of, a concept of make the win buy a barrel, and that was kind of fun. But really 2013 was about me focusing on my own brand Petria in Senegal.

Tony:
And then ‘14, um no new clients, in ‘15 I worked with Amici, now Amici winery, so I went to work there.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
And Amici, Olema. and No Curfew. I mean wonderful people to work for.

Doug:
Amici they're up in Calistoga.

Tony:
Yeah, off of Old Toll Road.

Doug:
Got it.

Tony:
So great people to work for. They make a lot of single vineyard wines, so To Kolan, um, Morisolely.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
To name two, and then, but Bob Shepard and John Harriston are the owners. They're great people to work for. And then in ‘17 I took, took two clients on in Paso just to play, play around, to see something different.

Doug:
And how far a drive is that, man? (laughs)

Tony:
It's a f-, well that's how I found out about our podcast. (laughs)

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
It's about a four, four hour, four hour and 15 minute drive. But I'll get up early and drive, or I'll leave, you know I can't go down and drive back at night. Um, but it's even opened my eyes to what else is out there. And it's different wine making techniques and understanding that what works here doesn't work there. And just having a whole different attitude. It's very different down there. Um, especially there's huge of students in West Paso, and East Paso.

Doug:
That's what I've heard.

Tony:
It's completely night and day. I mean you know I was standing at a winery called Torrin, uh, it's Scott Holly's winery. And, um, we're just sitting on the patio just chatting, you know. And you know I, he goes... I go where, how high are we? He goes "Oh we're 1500 feet."

Doug:
Oh my God.

Tony:
You don't even know it, you know.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
And of course if you drive from West Paso through the Templeton Gap you're going to go drop straight down to the ocean. So it's a crazy topography down there. And then I also have a client now in, um, in 2017, uh, Lasseter. John Lasseter from-

Doug:
Oh John Lasseter for Pixar.

Tony:
Yeah, and then my last client that I took on this year, um, as, as a recording is I took them on last year was The Vineyardist up in Calistoga, so.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
We're working with, uh, Dirk Fulton and his beautiful 40 acre piece of property. Mark Herold was there before and, and so they have their own little winery.

Doug:
Got it. And Clos du Val too?

Tony:
Clos du Val. Yeah, I'm sorry started in ‘15 at Cloe Duvall. I left last year and that was sort of, you know working with Steve Tamberelli.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Did sort of help, you know Christie, Christie Fulton was, was the winemaker there up until ‘15. And I didn't replace her, I was going to work with her and she left very suddenly, uh, to do some consulting and some other things.

Doug:
Got it.

Tony:
And it was sort of like, uh, okay.

Doug:
Yeah. They were working on turning it around.

Tony:
So, Steve, Steve would ask me if I would help make the wines, um, for that year to get them through. So I made the single vineyard wines there. But again Stags Leap is unbelievable, so.

Doug:
So, you've got what six, seven, eight, nine, ten clients, something like that.

Tony:
Seven.

Doug:
Seven.

Tony:
Seven including my own Petria. Um, and that's about where I like to be at. I don't want to be more.

Doug:
Is that about.

Tony:
Um, I sort of got in this, this stable of people I really like working for. Um, and, and I think, you know it's almost find your, I hate saying this saying. But it's find your tribe, these people that know me and I know them well. And they trust me, and I trust them.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
So it's really, really good.

Doug:
So, how much do you get involved at each place? Does each place have someone kind of on staff as a quote winemaker or assistant winemaker?

Tony:
I like-

Doug:
How's that?

Tony:
I like to set that up. My goal as a consultant is to come in, and now, now The Vineyardist is very small so I make those wines at Amici. I'm a co-winemaker with a gentleman by the name of Jesse Fox.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
He, He's makes the wines with me now. I, I like to set that up that way because in the end it’s about the brand, it's not about me.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
And I think the strength, and I think the future, you know whereas I think in the last 15 years it was all about consulting, consulting, consulting.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tony:
You know, and I think now the strongest thing for anybody to do is to put someone very strong in place, and you just come in and taste. Taste the wines and work with them. Just sort of measure them and maybe, you know maybe you... At Clos du Val for example it was Ted Henry.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Came on board in the early ‘16 and at the end of ‘18 I just, they didn't, they don't need my help. He's a talented, talented guy. Now coming in and having, having a, you know different person look at the wines when it comes to that is very important. I mean I have Craig taste my wine, Craig Williams. I, I, I begged him to taste my wine.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Cause you see he can say, see something I miss.

Doug:
Craig Williams.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
But, uh, when you're dealing with these guys do they like call you up. I mean do you guys go over work orders, or when to rack, or when to filter.

Tony:
Kind of. Um, I write protocols for them.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
Um, it's all sort of different, um, like for example Jesse Fox is a talented winemaker at Amici.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
So, we're talking probably higher level stuff, whereas with Lasseter we brought in a wonderful woman named Danielle. Um, I can never say Danielle, sorry if you're listening. Langlois how she says. I can never say her last name. I probably butchered it.

Tony:
But she is young up and coming talented winemaker, um, who just started last year at ‘18, we brought her own full time. So I help her more with work orders and some of that stuff.

Doug:
Just logistics. Logistics.

Tony:
Okay, but like I told her I said "Look, you know you need to make some of these decisions because-

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
Um, I can do all that, I can make all the decisions and I'll do the job, or you make all the decisions and I'll help you if you stumble we'll fix it."

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
And you can do this and do that. And, and, I said "Trust me there won't be a time when something very drastic that I'm going to leave you hanging." But for little things make the decision we can talk about it afterwards. I can say well I maybe would have approached it this way or that way.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
I think that the hardest thing is, is managing of people in the cellar. I think you would agree to that too. It's so easy to make wine but it's management of people is the hardest thing I think anybody would agree, in any business.

Doug:
Well you’re, you’re, you're a mentor.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
You're basically mentoring.

Tony:
And, and I think to letting go of, of your notion, preconceived notion as long as the job is getting done incredibly well, how they get to the end, end, endpoint, if the endpoint is still as good as you would have done it. But they look at the problem completely differently, you let it go. You don't, you don't become a micro manager, you know. You empower your people to do these jobs, and these people will run... My guys I love every one of them, they'll run through walls. I mean they're so amazing.

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
You know they'll do anything to make great wine because you're empowering them because they are part of the process. I think it's one of the hardest things in winemaking is when you're not part, your, you're just, just a, I call it a pog. I mean fill a barrel, why am I filling a barrel, well it's none of your business. You know, you know get that fork lift.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
If they're part of the process and they can come to you I just see that people are happier. That's what happened at, at, for me at Duckhorn. That's how I was treated.

Doug:
That's how you were treated.

Tony:
And I think it's maybe happened, to me that what it comes back to. Is if you were treated that way you kind of want to do that to, to them. And you know Tom Rinaldi would always open great wines. Would always barbecue for us. So I find myself doing that now to the guys.

Doug:
Good.

Tony:
You know it's just treat them well.

Doug:
Well that's, that's key in my hat is off to you, because that's a tough thing to do. I have had a tough time in my career. Keeping my mouth shut and letting someone who I was working with be, under me, you know do their own thing. Knowing they're not going to mess up on purpose, and even if they do something I wouldn't of done it's still not going to the end of the world.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
And you know that, that's a challenge.

Tony:
It is.

Doug:
It's a challenge.

Tony:
You know there are certain things I, I of course I want to be a part of. Picking of course, and maceration techniques, and so forth. But I often tell my guys, you're going to laugh at this, but it's true. The only thing I can't fix is if you put wine down the drain.

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
You know so I can't go down there and get it back.

Doug:
What about red wine into a white wine tank.

Tony:
Yeah, that's the other one.

Doug:
That's another one.

Tony:
That's, that's another one. So, you know we've done that before. I've watched like why are you topping those barrels.

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
Well because they need wine. I'm like yeah it's white wine though.

Doug:
Oh.

Tony:
Yeah, so we did that. We made the mistake once at Duckhorn of putting a pyramid of white Sauvignon Blanc in a red room.

Doug:
Oh, bad idea.

Tony:
Yeah, seven barrels later.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
Like, whoa, yeah okay. Here we go.

Doug:
(laughs)

Tony:
But for the most part I think you are hoping the person understands that but they don't. I mean sometimes they don't.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
So, I've seen that mistake happen. But yeah I think that's just about empowerment. It's incredibly hard to do because you've, you know your name is on it.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
And, and in the end you're going to get the credit or the, you, you, you... You know I always believe you share all the credit, you take all the blame.

Doug:
Got it.

Tony:
You know because that's your job, you get paid to do that. And you know you empower your guys. We did it all as a team effort, you know. When the screw up hits, uh, I did it, and, and, and the buck stops with me. I missed that.

Doug:
I'm with you. So I've got to ask you something because I've never seen this happen. I remember hearing stories about this when I was working with Randy at Lake Springs. So I was brand new and he put the fear of God in me about you don't want to suck in a tank.

Tony:
Oh yeah.

Doug:
So sucking in tank basically everyone is if you're moving wine from one tank to another tank or to barrels you basically hooked up a hose and you open the valve and you're sucking out the wine. Well you need to make sure you vent the top of the tank because if you don't because the tops are sealed up. If you don't then they'll basically suck it in. And when these steel tanks I've heard, I've never seen it or heard it in person.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
It's really loud it goes voomp because every once in while you walk into a winery and not too much these days but there will be some tank over the corner. It's got like this big indentation in it. It’s like whoa someone sucked that in.

Tony:
I think truthfully it's the first thing everybody tells you. Do not do this... I've acutally seen... I had a tank at Plumpjack suck in, but it wasn't our guys fault. What happened was ... the seam on a jacket on the inside of a tank, we had to sell the wine off in bulk because it got glycol.

Doug:
Glycol in it

Tony:
Glycol blew through it, the glycol flowing so fast it actually sucked the tank in, sucked the jacket in and dented it. So I have seen that, you hear the horror stories.You've seen the tanks. They blow them back out. It looks like a coke can that's been thrown around that its extended. Yeah, it's bad, it's like a water bottle, you suck on the water bottle with no top it sucks in. Its the same thing

Doug:
It sucks in

Tony:
You hear the horror stories, there was one winery they did hot water rinse on all the tanks and they latched up all the tops, the hot water went to cold so it sucked all the tanks dry.

Doug:
Ohh

Tony:
That and taking val- I've seen ... I have seen people take valves off the back of a tank, and, and two inches of wine come out at people, you know-

Doug:
Oh wow.

Tony:
Yeah. There was one like-

Doug:
That's a big wine, that's a (laughs).

Tony:
I wanna make sure, you know, there's statutes of limitations of those things after 20 years. Right?

Doug:
(Laughs).

Tony:
(Laughs). We were working once in a winery. I won't name it, but, uh, I, I bet somebody and, and this will make you laugh.

Doug:
(Laughs).

Tony:
I don't know if, if the fans out there will get this, and that I could outrun a two horsepower centrifugal pump.

Doug:
Oh.

Tony:
And, and close, and close the valve and open the valve.

Doug:
Oh.

Tony:
Yeah. (Laughs).

Doug:
Oh, you mean run, you know the wine, you've-

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
The wine's going through the hose-

Tony:
Yeah, I took, I- I can outrun it and he goes "There's no way you can outrun this." I said-

Doug:
No.

Tony:
"I can do this. I can do this." And I get there and that thing is, it's like a fire hose of-

Doug:
(Laughs).

Tony:
Of Chardonnay must hitting the wall. And it's just like going everywhere. I'm like ...

Doug:
That right, that right?

Tony:
And I, and I finally got I was covered in this must.

Doug:
Covered in it.

Tony:
And I, I couldn't outrun it.

Doug:
Bad idea. I love it.

Tony:
(Laughs).

Doug:
Hey-

Tony:
Anyways-

Doug:
Tell me, tell me more about your own brand, Patria.

Tony:
So Patria, um-

Doug:
Patria, I'm sorry.

Tony:
Yeah, well, Patria I mean, I, I say it sometimes too. Uh-

Doug:
Patria.

Tony:
Means uh, native, native land, home land.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
Um, it was, you know something I've always wanted to do, I think ... I think that any chef always wants to have his own restaurant I think. Even if it's a small brand, it's-

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
It's something that you wanna do, it is yours. And you know, I make the wines for Hourglass or Amici. There's, uh there's ... you know Jess Smith's a part of that or Bob and, and you know everybody's a part of-

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
This is mine, it's my expression-

Doug:
It's your baby, yeah.

Tony:
And it's a vineyard I, you know the first vineyard I dealt with is Oakville Ranch which is, uh, be- above Dalla Valle but below Ovid and it's one of the highest vineyards in Oakville, pure red soil. Very unique. I actually dis-, discovered-

Doug:
Mary, Mary Miner's place.

Tony:
Mary Miner place, yeah absolutely.

Doug:
Right.

Tony:
And I discovered the piece when Duckhorn was buying fruit from there. I said "I'll always, I'll always wanna make, to buy fruit from there." And ...

Doug:
It's a good ranch.

Tony:
Um, it's great ground and so that was ‘13 and then I became really close with Phil Coturri.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
Who farms it so-

Doug:
He farms it, yeah.

Tony:
Uh, very famous family outta Sonoma who's a big, big organic farmer outta Sonoma and ... He subsequently is why I work with the Lasseters now and, and The Vineyardist and, we have really good, you know, just a really good rapport. So-

Doug:
We were, his name came up uh, with Paula Cornell.

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
Yeah, because he was-

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
I think she hired him, when she was running-

Doug:
She hired him.

Tony:
And I ... she's the one who, e- enabled me to get into Oakville Ranch, Paula Cornell, so.

Doug:
Oh cool!

Tony:
Yeah, so I still dealt with her a bit before she had left, left Oakville Ranch, so. She was very kind to me. I mean I was just this young kid like knocking on their door every year. "Can I have some fruit, can I have some fruit, can I have some fruit." You know, and, and, and so they finally said yes in ‘13 and so I make to, made two wines then. An Oakville Ranch Cabernet and then the Cabernet Franc Cabernet blend.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
Um, called Avoyelles. My business partner's family, Kimberly Jones, uh, had ... their family bought a piece of property in the Avoyelle's parish in, in Louisiana.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
And so, we, I just called it that for her and so, yeah. And that wine is homage or sort of my, my sort of, um, homage to Maya.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
Uh, Dalla Valle. That was ... Out of all the so called cult wines we go back to this. The, the original ones. That was the most unique to me uh, from the label design, from the blend of Cabernet Franc to Cabernet.

Doug:
This Franc and Cab, right.

Tony:
Yeah, it was always the one that was like, so here you have, you know-

Doug:
It's beautiful wine.

Tony:
So here you have you know Araujo, you have Bryant family or Harlan or Shafer Hillside Select, then you have this Cabernet Franc Cabernet blend. It's like, "What is this?" But it's so-

Doug:
What's-

Tony:
Phenomenal.

Doug:
What's, what's your blend? On that one.

Tony:
It's about 50, it, it varies between 45 and 55 Franc-

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
And then Cabernet the other portion, we have five to seven percent Petit Verdot.

Doug:
Okay.

Tony:
And all of its co-fermented usually so we'll pick it at the same time-

Doug:
Oh, cool.

Tony:
And ferment it together, so. But yeah, uh, it's just a very unique wine and-

Doug:
Sounds good actually.

Tony:
It, it's really fun, you know and it Cabernet Franc up there is special. East, east side of valley Cabernet Franc.

Doug:
I used to buy some Franc from uh, Cal Shokette.

Tony:
Yes, then you understand it. So yeah and so you know the dirt.

Doug:
Yeah.

Tony:
And so it's just been very fun. And, and another wine, vin- wine I just bought. A vineyard I just, bought for from starting at ‘16 or ‘15 was Allen Price. Do you know Allen? You know Allen uh, Miele.

Doug:
Oh yeah, yeah, Miele Price.

Tony:
But uh, he, his family owns Spotswood originally. Sold it to Novaks. He has his little one, and a half acre piece on Hudson. Twenty-seven year old, cloned seven Cabernet he planted that I buy for my brand and make about 125 cases in that ... With for uh, Patria as well and so you know just having fun looking for different vineyards to work with.

Doug:
More good dirt.

Tony:
Yeah, it's great dirt and that's why I got it. And so ... And I known Allen 'cause he worked with me at Hess Collection. So-

Doug:
Small world.

Tony:
It is, it is and I think that's really what I think people forget sometimes is that how small Napa Valley is. It, it is one degree of separation.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Tony:
And especially if you were here in the early ‘90s or for you even earlier than that. It's probably half a degree of separation. (laughing)

Doug:
It is.

Tony:
And so ... The more things change, more things stay the same and, and I love living here and, and it' fu-

Doug:
It's great.

Tony:
There's strengths and there's weakness I guess. You know, people go, "Oh you must hate the tourist." Actually I've met more interesting people just walking down the street.

Doug:
Oh yeah.

Tony:
You know and-

Doug:
It's fun.

Tony:
They're all happy. They're on vacation.

Doug:
They're on vacation. They're drinking wine.

Tony:
Exactly.

Doug:
So if someone wants to get your wines Patria, how do they get them?

Tony:
Patriawines.com

Doug:
Patriawines.com

Tony:
Yeah.

Doug:
Okay, everyone hear that? Check it out.

Tony:
Absolutely. So yeah.

Doug:
Tony, thanks for coming in.

Tony:
Thank you. It was great. Have a great day.

Doug:
All right man, be good, see you.

Full Transcript

Doug:
Hey everybody. Doug Shafer. Welcome back to The Taste. Today we have Helen Keplinger, um, joining us on The Taste. I've been wanting to get her on the show because she's been making some killer wines, and I want to hear her story. So Helen, welcome and thanks for coming in today.

Helen:
Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me.

Doug:
It's great, it's great.

Helen:
I'm really flattered to be asked to come.

Doug:
Oh man, I, I got to hear the story, so let's, let's go back. Where, where are you from, born and raised, where were you?

Helen:
I grew up in Canton, Ohio.

Doug:
Which is how far from Cleveland?

Helen:
Um, it's about, about an hour south.

Doug:
So, Midwest. What, what was Canton like growing up there?

Helen:
Um, great place to grow up, just, a place where you can, you can fit a number of activities in one day 'cause there isn't a lot of traffic and, um, the cost of living is very reasonable. So, we had a lot of, you know, fun activities. My parents were big gardeners and sort of the classic, uh, swimming, golf, tennis upbringing. And they also loved the symphony and the opera and musicals, so we had a lot of, a lot of all of that growing up.

Doug:
How neat, neat.

Helen:
So just kind of classic Midwest upbringing probably.

Doug:
And ... Now, I grew up in the Midwest.

Helen:
Did you?

Doug:
But ... yeah, Chic- outside Chicago.

Helen:
Awesome.

Doug:
Similar gig.

Helen:
Yeah.

Doug:
Country club, tennis, golf, high school, ba, ba, bam. But my house, it was, uh, well, I was not supposed to be drinking, but it was bourbon and beer.

Helen:
Oh, totally.

Doug:
How about you guys?

Helen:
I, I don't know if I should ... yeah.

Doug:
Your parents.

Helen:
Um, so my, my parents drink wine-

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
... every night. So my dad, um, my dad had a wine cellar, and he wasn't, wasn't really a trophy collector, but he just would buy wines. Um, he would read the Wine Spectator pretty religiously and pick out really good value wines that he could buy large quantities of because they would drink a bottle, they still do, they drink a bottle every night. And even now, there's, on the dinner table, there's no water, there's no water glasses, they just have wine.

Doug:
(laughs). You got to teach them how to hydrate.

Helen:
So, um, ... I know. I've been working on that, but, um, but anyways, that was-

Doug:
Well, see, but you grew up I, that's a difference. Yeah, I, I never saw a bottle of wine in the house. I mean, rarely would be, if it, if there was wine, if they had a dinner party, I think it was like Lancers or Mateus, something like that.

Helen:
Oh, my dad has Lancers too, yeah.

Doug:
Yeah. But, um, so wine was totally foreign to me, I mean, as a kid, had no concept of it.

Helen:
So, how did you get into it?

Doug:
Oh, that's a whole-

Helen:
Let's, let me interview you about that (laughs).

Doug:
Okay, uh, in 30 seconds. Dad got a, got a crazy idea to invests in the pending wine boom in Napa Valley, and this is 1973, bought a vineyard.

Helen:
Oh my God.

Doug:
He was not a wine guy. He did it as an investment. Was going to wait 10 years, but just got fed up with the corporate thing in Chicago. Moved us out here in '73.

Helen:
Oh my gosh.

Doug:
I was 17. He started, he replanted this vineyard, started making wine '78. I got the bug and UC Davis and boom.

Helen:
That is so fantastic.

Doug:
35 years ago or 40, well, 40 years ago or more that we moved out here.

Helen:
Wow.

Doug:
It was pretty crazy.

Helen:
That's incredible.

Doug:
Definitely no traffic in Napa Valley then, let me tell you.

Helen:
I know. Yeah.

Doug:
All right. So, you have wine at home. Um, high school, sports, activities, what did you do?

Helen:
Yeah, so high school, I was, I was always a big runner-

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
... so I did track and then cross country and, and then really got into running. Running was kind of a lifelong passion that actually I only wrapped up probably with the, with my, uh, I had an in- a running injury-

Doug:
Oh.

Helen:
... that slowed me down, but otherwise, I was a big runner and, uh, from high school.

Doug:
And still running?

Helen:
No, not now. I don't really have, um, time hence I'm, I'm trying to be a little bit nicer to my joints, so yoga and we have a lot of other sports that we like to do.

Doug:
But you did, you ran some marathons?

Helen:
Yeah, I ran a couple marathons.

Doug:
Good for you. That's big.

Helen:
Yeah. Did Boston a few times.

Doug:
All right. Okay. And so high school, graduated, then what? Where do we go?

Helen:
Um, I wanted to get out of Ohio.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
Uh, as much as I loved growing up there, I was just eager to go away. Um, and so I went to Smith College in Western Mass.

Doug:
Okay. Great School.

Helen:
Yeah, great school.

Doug:
Yeah. And, studied?

Helen:
I was super interested in science, in the sciences-

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
... sort of broad range in the science, and I think it's because I found them really intellectually challenging. So, I kind of went through, and I had some really amazing professors who were very inspiring,-

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
... but I went through chemistry and thought, oh, maybe chemical engineering.

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
And I went to a few meetings of the, you know, the chemical engineering club and that wasn't for me. And then I thought, well, maybe polymer science. So, I did an internship over the summer in polymer science. Um, I tried, you know, another internship in veterinary science, and, and again, those weren't ... And then I sort of zeroed in on, um, and did a lot of biochemistry research-

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
... in undergrad and I thought maybe medicine would be what I wanted to do. So, that's sort of the track I was pursuing, premed studies in undergrad.

Doug:
Okay. Well, you were, you were in hardcore sciences. I mean, you know, my, my Davis stuff, you know, for Viti/Enology was, it was, it was a lot of science, but it wasn't the super hardcore. But-

Helen:
I know. That's what's so great about it (laughs).

Doug:
(laughs). Well, so you were, you were trying everything. So, as you were kind of bouncing around in college, are you, you drinking wine? Are you drinking beer? What's, uh, I mean, is wine still around for you at that point?

Helen:
Yeah, so, um, you know, growing up, because my parents had this wine cellar,-

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
... um, and I was always really outdoorsy. I loved just being outside and I was always drawn to rocks, so I had a rocks collection and a wine bottle collection.

Doug:
Really? Rocks?

Helen:
Yeah.

Doug:
How'd that, where'd that come from?

Helen:
I don't know. It's just what I was interested in, and my parents had some fun bottles that I would, I had them all around by room, you know, rocks and wine bot- I don't know. I was a strange kid. But anyways, um-

Doug:
No, there's visuals going on here. That's kind of cool.

Helen:
So in college, I was always the, in college and after college, I was always the one who ordered wine when we went out,-

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
... you know, friends went out or if I went out with a boyfriend, I always just took the wine list because I felt, I felt like I knew wine-

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
... but my repertoire was pretty slim then. But after college I moved to Boston-

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
... for two years of medical research at MGH, and-

Doug:
MGH was?

Helen:
Mass General Hospital.

Doug:
Oh, Mass General. Thank you.

Helen:
And, um, Western Mass, you know, actually near Smith, there was this amazing wine shop. I don't know if it's still there. It used to be called Big Y Wines. So the grocery store Big Y had that. Have you been to that?

Doug:
I've sold wine in those places in Massachusetts.

Helen:
Seriously?

Doug:
Yeah, I remember a Big Y. Yeah.

Helen:
So, they used to have a dedicated shop.

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
I was actually just out there for my, um, my reunion and I thought, oh my gosh, I've got to go back to this place, you know, that sort of was part of igniting my interest, my serious interest in wine, and I couldn't find, I couldn't find it.

Doug:
You couldn't find it. It's gone. Oh man. Another retailer.

Helen:
I know. So anyhow, they used to have 35 labels, and the whole thing was temperature controlled, which was pretty remarkable in those days. And so I would go out and I would buy a case at a time and just read through a region and,-

Doug:
How cool.

Helen:
... but it never crossed my mind that I would do it as a career and just never-

Doug:
So it was like, it was a hobby-

Helen:
A hobby, yeah.

Doug:
... or interest, serious interests.

Helen:
Yeah, yeah.

Doug:
Okay. But you're in Boston doing medical research, what kind of research?

Helen:
So, it was with a group of four PI's,-

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
... uh, principal investigators, and they were all really, really brilliant and all young, all in their, you know, 30's.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Helen:
And they were, um, PDGI's studying immunology.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
And so it was, it was specialized and it was really fun, but I loved immunology in undergrad and so I set up, um, an immunological histochemical core for them to, just to look at samples. And as much as I loved it in undergrad and I loved these, you know, these, um, docs,-

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
... I mean, they were academic physicians, they were amazing, um, super dynamic. I mean, just the most incredible people, but I didn't love the day to day and I didn't love going to work every day. And so it was the first thing that gave me pause in, you know, thinking I, I knew for sure what I wanted to do.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
And so I didn't quite make it two years there-

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
... because I just was, I started thinking about what else I could do, and I found that, um, I started looking around and I really wanted to go abroad, because during college my, my plan was to go spend a year in Paris at the Sorbonne, and I got so wrapped up in science courses and these incredible professors-

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
... that I didn't go abroad, instead, I just took way too many classes and stayed. And, um, and so I regretted that. And so I wanted to go abroad. I wanted to get away from science 'cause I felt like I needed to clear my head and get some perspective. And so, um, I came upon the idea of, um, you know, some volunteer work or something, you know, volunteer program, and I was interested in the Peace Corps.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
But the Peace Corps was a two year commitment, and at the age of I 22 or something,-

Doug:
Yeah. How old were you? You were like 22?

Helen:
Yeah.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
And two, you know, two years felt like an eternity-

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
... and I couldn't even make it through two years of medical research, so I, I was terrified to commit to two years of the Peace Corps. So, I started looking at one year programs, and, um, you know, a lot of universities had them, but I looked at, um, I w- was really interested in Southeast Asia. And so Princeton and Harvard and, um, I think Stanford, they each had a program, and I ended up doing the one at, um, through the Harvard, uh, school for International Development in a program called World Teach, and they went to 14 countries which were developing countries, and so I picked Thailand.

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
And so I applied to that program and then I, I left, um, Boston and MGH and I just did a cross country trip and kind of got myself together and then I went to Thailand.

Helen:
This program sent volunteers, uh, twice a year-

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
... in April and October, and the October group was always the bigger group, but I was part of the April group, so there were only five of us. And, um, they had us in Bangkok for about a month, uh, just doing intensive Thai language study-

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
... and cultural study-

Doug:
Right. Makes sense.

Helen:
... so that we wouldn't be offensive foreigners.

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
And, um, thank God.

Doug:
Which can happen, which can happen to all of us.

Helen:
Yes. And then, and then they shipped us out to our, um, you know, our, our locations. And I think that, you know, going over there was super exciting.

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
I've always just completely thrived on adventure and, and new experiences and things that, that might be, you know, kinda scary.

Doug:
Yeah.

Helen:
I, I love that. I like things that scare me because they challenge you and help you grow.

Doug:
Right, it's the risk, and right, gets you going.

Helen:
Yeah. So fun. So, um, so I think that was maybe the, I had this image in my head of being really like in the jungle, you know, this tropical jungle, which I was, I was not, but, um, but I was in a small town and there were, I, at least where I was, there weren't any other foreigners, and it was, you know, it was a small school that the king at that time was trying to elevate the teachers. They had a, a bunch of teachers colleges-

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
... and, um, and they were trying to elevate them to become universities. And so I was part of a program that was, that was trying to do that. So, I was teaching, uh, conversational English to first year students, and then I was teaching poetry, which was crazy. And, um,-

Doug:
You with, you with all the science background teaching poetry.

Helen:
I know, I know.

Doug:
I love this.

Helen:
It was so good to get out of your comfort zone. Um, but I think through that experience-

Doug:
What, what age kids we were teaching? Were they high school, college?

Helen:
You know, so I was 23 teaching 18 year olds.

Doug:
Okay. Wow.

Doug:
All right, so you're teaching and that's for a year or two?

Helen:
It was for a year.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
And, um, during, you know, during that time I had, I could travel every weekend.

Doug:
Oh, neat.

Helen:
I went all over the country, um, and then traveled, you know, out, we went up to Nepal, and it was a really, really great experience. And I think through that experience, um, it was great to get away from, from science, although I still had this plan to pursue medicine. And, and one thing with teaching was I, I realized that teaching was also not a natural gift, at least at that time in my life. I think I'm a little bit better now with, with the perspective and, and having a son.

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
But, um, it was a lot of work, and it was every night I had to really prepare my lessons. Um, I didn't love speaking in front of people. I wasn't naturally, uh, gifted at that either, and so the exercise of, of speaking in front of a class and, uh, wanting to be really engaging as, you know, the professors I had just had in college-

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
... who really affected me and inspired me were, and, and then, you know, just having lesson plans that were meaningful and the students could actually learn something. And so it was, it was a lot of work and it was also something, I mean, I enjoyed it, but it wasn't something I loved. And that was the same with medical research. It wasn't something I loved, it was something I had to really, really work hard to, to do well. And so it, it was, you know, another thing that I just thought, gosh, I don't, you know, I don't want to do this for the rest of my life.

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
I don't want work to feel like such an effort. And, and for some reason, I thought, uh, uh, work should be enjoyable.

Doug:
Okay. I'm with you.

Helen:
So, um,-

Doug:
But while you were over there, you ran into somebody, right? I heard your story, I hear your story.

Helen:
Oh my gosh, yes, yes.

Doug:
Tell me that story.

Helen:
So, at the end of the year, we went to, ... um, so during the year, three of the, three of the volunteers and I became very, very close friends-

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
... and we would travel around the country together, get together in Bangkok on the weekend, or go visit each other at each other's schools. And so we, we planned to go to Nepal, um, for a month or five weeks after the pro- when the program ended. And so we flew into Kathmandu and, um, we decided, you know, we decided we would do that Everest region-

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
And so we, we hiked out of Namche, we went to Khumjung, which is, um, the first stop basically outside of Namche, and we stopped there for, you know, a coffee and some breakfast.

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
And it has the, the, um, the distinguished title of the highest bakery in the world.

Doug:
There you go.

Helen:
And so we stopped there. And then, you know, this is after a year of being a volunteer. I was making $250 a month.

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
I was, you know, which was great pay for Thai standards in the country at that time, but, um, upcountry at that time. But anyways, um, I hadn't had any wine except for when, you know, I went to go visit my boyfriends, boyfriend and his family during Christmas.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
And, um, I was sitting there and I looked over at the next table and there was this small group, and there was a, there was a bottle of Grace Family Vineyard on that table. And I just nearly died because I missed wine so much.

Doug:
Did you know what Grace Family was?

Helen:
Oh yes.

Doug:
Okay, you did.

Helen:
I was well aware.

Doug:
Got it. So you were ... yeah, okay.

Helen:
So I was completely blown away that it was, it was Grace Family, that somebody, you know, who, who had a bottle of Grace Family?

Doug:
At the, at the highest bakery in the world of all places.

Helen:
Yes, totally. Yes, it's a sign.

Doug:
(laughs).

Helen:
So, so I looked over and, and, and it was, you know, Dick and Ann, and actually-

Doug:
Dick and Ann Grace.

Helen:
... Debbie Zachareas was there too. Just crazy.

Doug:
Debbie was there?

Helen:
Yes, yes, yes.

Doug:
Oh, you're kidding me.

Helen:
Yes.

Doug:
Oh, that's ... I didn't-

Helen:
So, which I didn't know at the time and I didn't know how amazing Debbie was at the time.

Doug:
No, no. Debbie, Debbie is a long time wine retailer, um, runs Ferry Merchant Plazas Wine Stores, Stores. She's just awesome. She's been in the business forever. She's one of the best wine people out there, but I had to throw that out, but carry on.

Helen:
Yeah, definitely. She's amazing. So anyways, um, Dick came over and let me, you know, hold this bottle of wine which I like. I took it and I just dropped my head down and touched my forehead to this bottle because I'm like, "Oh my God, I miss wine so much, and holy crap-

Doug:
Oh, wow.

Helen:
... this is a bottle of Grace Family and where am I?"

Doug:
Did he let you have some? Did he go-

Helen:
No, no.

Doug:
No, he didn't.

Helen:
Dick said, Dick said, you know, and he was so nice to me taking it.

Doug:
Yeah.

Helen:
You know what just people I'd read about in this epic wine. So, um, he said, you know, "I'm so sorry. That's actually my last bottle and I need to take it to somebody."

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
They, they've supported so many-

Doug:
So many charities.

Helen:
... educational and charity efforts in Nepal and orphanages. And, and so he was going to meet, um, I think a, the director of a school which they'd helped start. And so he, he said, "I'm so sorry, I can't give you this bottle of wine." And I, I mean, I didn't expect to be given a bottle of wine,-

Doug:
Right, right.

Helen:
I just wanted to hold it.

Doug:
Hold it (laughs).

Helen:
(laughs). And so, um, we went our separate ways, but I recalled that story to him, um, back in 2014-

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
... I got a phone call, um, from a friend who said, are you looking for any more projects? And I said, "Not really, but what is it?" And he said, "Grace Family." And I said, "Absolutely." That's, you know, a property, I, every time I pass it, I think about it and I've thought about it for years and just what a wonderful, beautiful, special place. So-

Doug:
Well, that's full circle. So you're, and you're still working-

Helen:
Yeah, I am. Yes.

Doug:
... at that project with Grace Family, so, and we'll touch on it later. But real quickly, those who don't know, Dick and Ann Grace, um, wonderful folks and started Grace Family Vineyards Winery 30, 40 years ago. Small production, beautiful, beautiful Cabernet. Probably one of the first, um, if you want to use the weird term, cult wines before, uh, cult wines became a thing. This is back in the 70s, and a wonderful, wonderful couple and so generous in giving and supports charities and orphanages in, in the Southeast Asia in a big way. But, uh, now they've since retired and I think they sold Grace Family just in the last year or so, but Helen's up there working, working well, you're making the wine there, right?

Helen:
Yeah.

Doug:
Now?

Helen:
Yes.

Doug:
Well, what a great story, full circle.

Helen:
Yeah.

Doug:
'Cause this was, uh, it's 2019. When you were in Nepal and you met him. It was when?

Helen:
Uh, 1997.

Doug:
That's a long time ago.

Helen:
Yeah.

Doug:
That's wild.

Helen:
Yeah.

Doug:
Okay. So, it's kind of like you had this moment with this bottle of wine. So, did you walk away kind of going, "Hmm," or not? Because-

Helen:
I walked away thinking, wow-

Doug:
Interesting.

Helen:
... you know, I loved this year, and I love travel, and I love being in the middle of nowhere, and you know, I love these experiences-

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
... but boy, I really miss wine.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
So, I went back to Boston after that and I was starting to work on my, um, medical school application.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
So, I did the MCAT and, um, started working on the applications and I was shadowing the PI's with whom I'd worked in the lab in the clinic-

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
... and, um, and grilling them about, you know, why did you do, why did you choose medicine?

Doug:
Yeah.

Helen:
And they all said, why, and then they said, "If we could do it again," each one said, "If I could do it again, I would," and no one said medicine. And, you know, I think it's just, it's where they were in their lives, but as a 20 something, you know, soul searching for what would be my passion and what I would love to do every day, and it just made a big impression and it really made me think. And at the same time I came across this book, Milady Vine. And it's Philippe De Rothschild's autobiography. And so it's, it's, he's in the same period of his life and he was in his 20s and he's thinking about what he wants to do and his parents, his family is in banking and they really want him to pursue banking as well, be in the business, and he's not interested in banking. And he loves, um, he loves cars, he loves women, he loves wine, and so he escapes regularly down to their country estate, Mouton, which is totally defunct at that time. But falls in love with it, and you know, it's the story of him taking that to the first growth-

Doug:
Wow.

Helen:
... which is incredible, you know, incredible life's work, and, and that he really found his passion. And for some reason it just kind of resonated.

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
And I looked and I found that UC Davis had a graduate program in viticulture and enology, and so when I found that, I just thought, oh that's, that's it.

Doug:
This is crazy.

Helen:
And so I applied to that program. I stopped all the med school.

Doug:
All right. How'd, how'd you find that because, you know, this is, this is before the Internet.

Helen:
It was just when the Internet was starting.

Doug:
Oh, so you could find it.

Helen:
It was when you would do a search and it would take you 10 minutes to get an answer, so it was not an easy task. But yeah, this is back in-

Doug:
This is so bad because see I'm, I'm recording my life, you know, when I was just out of college, and trust me, there was, there weren't computers.

Helen:
Oh, no, for sure, for sure. No, it was awful. And you remember when they first came, how long it would take you-

Doug:
Oh yeah, okay. So I'm with you on that.

Helen:
... to have the screen change.

Doug:
But you found this program?

Helen:
Yes.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
Because this is 19- this is the end of 1997.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
So there was Internet, but, um, but it was very, very slow.

Doug:
Very slow.

Helen:
So, I found that program, I applied to the program and, um, yeah.

Doug:
I was going to ask you about that. How tough was it to get in? Was it tough?

Helen:
Yes.

Doug:
Yeah. What was-

Helen:
Because they didn't really ... so I felt like they weren't accepting outsiders. Napa was so much more insular.

Doug:
So, how'd you-

Helen:
In fact, when I applied to get, um, a job doing medical research, I applied all over the country. I looked at electron microscopy, I was looking at marine biology ... and I applied to wineries. I was interested in wine, but no- nobody called me.

Doug:
Got it.

Helen:
I thought maybe I could get in through the lab or something.

Doug:
So, how, I mean, how tough, so how tough was getting the master's at UC Davis? Probably pretty tough.

Helen:
At that time it was really hard, yeah.

Doug:
So what did you do? Come out and interview, and beat them up and pester them and all that stuff?

Helen:
So, I, um, yeah. I sent in the application, which was probably in the fall, so maybe November of '97, and then I just took off and traveled around the country and did another trip back to Southeast Asia for three months. And then I, I went, I went back to Boston, I packed up all my stuff and drove cross country. So, I moved to California and, um, I was staying with my boyfriend's parents in Marin, and I would drive to a UC Davis because, um, they weren't going to let me in.

Doug:
So, they, they had turned you down-

Helen:
They had-

Doug:
... or they hadn't encouraged you?

Helen:
They had not encouraged me.

Doug:
And so you took it upon yourself.

Helen:
That why I went over to find out why. And I, I drove to UC Davis.

Doug:
Oh, I've, I've got a visual of you knocking on somebody's door saying, "Tell me why?"

Helen:
I'd actually been emailing ... yeah, exactly. "What went wrong?" So, um, I had been connected with Ann Noble on the East Coast because she went to UMass, and UMass, and you know, Smith is part of a five college system-

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
... in the beautiful Pioneer Valley of Western Mass, and so we connected and I'd been emailing with her and-

Doug:
Ann Noble is a great longtime prof at UC Davis in enology program.

Helen:
Yes. Super, super bright, super intense, super direct East Coast powerhouse.

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
Love that woman. So I went over to meet her and she just said, "This is ridiculous. You need to march yourself down there and ask them, you know, what's going on." And so I did, I'm not going to name names, but I met with one of their professors and said, you know, "I understand that there's a question about whether I'm getting into this program and was it my grades?" "No." "Was it my GRE score?" And they looked at all the GRE scores and they said no. I said, "Was it my recommendations?" "No." Was it ... and he said, "Well, it must have been something in your personal statement." And I thought, "Oh my gosh, this is ridiculous." And I remember I told Ann, and she said, "That's ridiculous."

Helen:
And she said, "Well, you can get into the program, um, you could get into the program in two, in two ways." One was, uh, food science, which had fewer science, uh, recommen- or fewer science requirements.

Doug:
Requirements, right.

Helen:
And then, um, you could also get in through agricultural or chemistry, Ag chem.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
And that had more, um, science requirements, which, I mean, I was a bio major with a chem minor, I had all the requirements-

Doug:
You had everything.

Helen:
... and so I just went through that department and got in no problem. But it was honestly at a time when I just felt like Na- I mean, Napa is so different now. We have so many, um, people from all over. It's such an exciting place and has been for, you know, at least 10 years, 15 years, but at this time, it was not. And in that program, there were very few people who were just coming from the outside. The following year they, they accepted people. I had, you know, friends from, um, from Williams, from Amherst, from, you know, from other East Coast schools that were very, had backgrounds very similar to mine, who had no connection with anything in Napa.

Doug:
Interesting.

Helen:
But I, I just felt like it was kind of a turning point maybe in, in where Davis was and where wine industry was going, which is really neat.

Doug:
Well, it's good. I mean, it was needed and it's happened.

Helen:
Yeah.

Doug:
Because it's, it's a, you know, it's a worldwide industry, you know, as we all know.

Helen:
Right, right.

Doug:
So, okay, so great. So you got in.

Helen:
So, I got in, phew.

Doug:
You're, you're persistent.

Helen:
Yes.

Doug:
Yeah, I picked that up, I picked that up right away. So you're in, a two year program. Are you doing internships or working while you're there or just-?

Helen:
So when I moved out, I, um, you know, I knocked on a lot of doors-

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
... and with no experience knowing no one coming from the East Coast.

Doug:
Yeah, it's tough.

Helen:
You know, it's very difficult to get a job, but I don't know how somehow I, I knocked on a Mumm's door-

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
... and Rob McNeill was the head of wine making at that time-

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
... and he gave me a chance.

Doug:
Great.

Helen:
So, he gave me my first job. It was in the lab, which I did not enjoy. It was super boring-

Doug:
Right

Helen:
... not fun, but I loved, I loved that, I was so appreciative of the opportunity. I met Kirk Venge their first year-

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
... which was awesome. Such a great guy. And then I did, um, Davis, and at the end of that, you know, year, I, I wrote cover letters and you know, wrote my resume and I sent it to probably, I think eight or nine people, but they were all people who I just absolutely admired and thought were incredible.

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
So Helen Turley, Bob Levy, uh, Ted Lemon, Heidi Barrett, I forget who else was on that list-

Doug:
Yeah, all the gang.

Helen:
... which going to happen anyways. I got a couple phone calls, not that many, and, uh, I think I had three, and one of them was Ren Harris from Paradigm. And so I hadn't heard of Paradigm and I didn't know Ren, but I went and I interviewed with him and, and he gave me a couple of bottles to try, and I loved him. And he, at the end of our interview, he said, "You know, Heidi Barrett gave me your resume and said, I better interview you and that I should hire you."

Doug:
Interesting.

Helen:
And he said, "And after this interview, I'd really like you to come work for me."

Doug:
Had you met Heidi yet?

Helen:
No, I hadn't, but I thought she, you know-

Doug:
Yeah. She has a great reputation.

Helen:
Yes.

Doug:
Um, but was she, was she making his wine or consultant? She was making his wine.

Helen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), she still is.

Doug:
And she still is.

Helen:
It's been, I think their first vintage was in '91. They're her oldest clients.

Doug:
That's right. Oh, I probably I did know that 'cause she was in here. So, he hired you to basically be wine maker or be like ... what was the title? What was the job?

Helen:
Assistant winemaker.

Doug:
Assistant winemaker.

Helen:
You know, it was, I skipped everything and just became the assistant winemaker, which is a blessing and a curse because you miss that period where you just get to be completely ignorant and ask all the dumb questions, and I felt like I couldn't so I just pretended like I knew what I was doing (laughs).

Doug:
No, I'm sure you still did. But you were working with Heidi-

Helen:
Yes.

Doug:
Who's, who's, who's great-

Helen:
Amazing, yeah.

Doug:
... and a great, uh, and I'm sure a great teacher.

Helen:
Amazing and, and a great role model, not only in wine making but also in, I mean, she's like the epitome of, just really enjoys life.

Doug:
Yeah, she's great. So, you jump in, Ren hires you, assistant winemaker. You're there every day. Heidi is checking in once, twice, three times a week, something like that.

Helen:
Something like that.

Doug:
Yeah. And that was your first time really doing cellar work.

Helen:
Yeah.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
It was awesome.

Doug:
Oh, it's, it's fun, it's neat, but you got to learn, you know, it's, it's not that complicated, but someone's got to teach you. So, Heidi taught you probably.

Helen:
Oh, Ren would come out.

Doug:
Oh, Ren. Okay, Ren taught you.

Helen:
You know, Ren knew enough, knew enough to be dangerous, right?

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
Ren would come out and, um, show me some basics, the, the vineyard guys would also come and help sometimes too.

Doug:
Yeah.

Helen:
So I did the internship over the summer. I actually took the fall semester off or fall quarter off-

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
... to do a harvest. And then Ren, you know, Ren had just had-

Doug:
Oh, you were still, you were still getting your master's.

Helen:
I'm still at Davis, yeah, I still had another year.

Doug:
Oh, I thought you were out. Okay, okay.

Helen:
Um, the guy who was there before me was not a very hard worker and so Ren was, you know, just, I'm a really, I'm super industrious, crazy workaholic type person, so he was totally blown away, and he said, "You, you got to, you can, you got to stay." And I said, "Sure." And so I kept the job while I finished grad school, so I would just go there on the weekends and keep up with topping. I would go there on the weekends and do racking, and just kept the job throughout the, my second year of grad school. And then, um,-

Doug:
Were you living in Davis or Napa?

Helen:
I would live in Davis-

Doug:
And then commute over.

Helen:
... and I would just drive over. And Ren has a little tiny guest house, kind of studio attached. It's across the car port from their main house. And so I would stay there on the weekend and do the work and then go back to school ... on Sunday night. Um, and so then when I finished, I just became the full time winemaker or full time assistant winemaker at, at, uh, Paradigm.

Doug:
Way to go.

Helen:
Yeah.

Doug:
That's very cool.

Helen:
It was awesome.

Doug:
Okay. So at this point it's 1997, eight, nine, something like that.

Helen:
Let's see, 1999-

Doug:
Got it.

Helen:
... was probably when I did my internship there.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
So then when I finished it was, uh, 2000.

Doug:
So you got a full time job-

Helen:
Right.

Doug:
... you're living in Napa.

Helen:
Right.

Doug:
All right. What's next?

Helen:
So, living in Napa I wanted to do, since I skipped that whole, you know, self exploration before you become the assistant winemaker, I wanted to do an internship abroad. So, Ren let me do that. He was fine with that. I went to Australia for a couple months in 2002.

Doug:
Well, that's really cool.

Helen:
Yeah, he's-

Doug:
He let do that?

Helen:
Yeah.

Doug:
I mean, I wouldn't.

Helen:
Oh, yes you would.

Doug:
No, no, I wouldn't.

Helen:
You guys are up there with like the nicest, coolest people in Napa, you're on the list.

Doug:
Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Well, you're very kind, but you need to talk to people who work here. No, it's like you can't, you have to stay here and work.

Helen:
The secret slave driver.

Doug:
Oh, um, okay, so, I'm sorry. You went to Australia for two months for an internship at-

Helen:
Two or three months, yeah. At, um, that was another experience of finding it difficult to get a job. But I was hired at Rosemount.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
So, it's in New South Wales.

Doug:
Big producer, right?

Helen:
Yeah, in Denman. A big producer, but they weren't, it was before they'd been purchased, so they were still family run.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
Um, but nonetheless, they, um, it was amazing. It was a big cellar. Everything I'd really done was small. Well, Mumm's not that small, but Mumm's still isn't that big either.

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
And so it was really eye opening and I think it was a wake up for me, or at least an experience for me that told me I like small wineries, I like the minutiae. I'm not really a big winery kind of person. So I like details and I like to, I just like small scale things where you can really -

Doug:
Well, you like to ... I'm going to jump in. You like to be involved-

Helen:
Yes.

Doug:
... involved in every step of the way.

Helen:
Right.

Doug:
You know, um, Elias and I have for years have had this conversation. You know, we've been together so long and, and as he took over and I'm out running the business and selling and all that, he said, "Look, we get much bigger, I'm going to lose touch. I don't want to lose touch with my wines."

Helen:
Totally.

Doug:
And I respect that.

Helen:
Yeah.

Doug:
And we're and we're able to fortunately, knock on wood, we're able to remain this size and stay in business. And so it's, it's nice, but I, I get that.

Helen:
Yeah.

Doug:
I never, and I'm kind of, um, I've always wondered what it would be like at one of these places that make just hundreds of thousands of cases. I mean, the scale must be crazy.

Helen:
Oh my gosh. It's crazy.

Doug:
And I, I would have, I would have no-

Helen:
And the tanks are gigantic. I mean, it's just-

Doug:
That, that's a big tank.

Helen:
... so like, so crazy.

Doug:
I mean, I, but I've thought back in the early days when it's like, where are we going to go with this business with Shafer, we're going to ramp it up, I try to kind of, I didn't talk to anybody, I should've talked to somebody, but it's like, I would think to myself, "How do you take it from 20 or 30,000 cases to a hundred or 200? I mean, how do you, how do you do that?" And it was just like, I'm sure there's a way to do it and people have done it, but it was, it was always kind of, um, just like, "Whoa, I don't know if I wanted to do that."

Helen:
Yeah.

Doug:
So, I'm glad, that's neat that you got to, to see it to early on, say, "No, I don't want to go there."

Helen:
Yeah.

Doug:
That's cool.

Helen:
Yeah, it was interesting. And you know, in the beginning I was, um, they hired too many winemakers basically for harvest, and with good reason because I mean, things would come up with these people and anyways, a few people left and, and, um, I know I was just an assistant winemaker, so I was sort of lower down on the totem pole in terms of, um, experience, and so as soon as two positions opened up, I got to be a winemaker. I was a night shift winemaker. So I worked from 7:00 PM to 7:00 AM I think, and slept in a, they gave us, they put us up in a trailer park, which was hilarious. So, I slept in ... I had my own little camper at this trailer park (laughs).

Doug:
(laughs).

Helen:
Um, but, um, the -

Doug:
Glamping in Australia.

Helen:
Yeah, exactly, before it was a thing. Um, but they would have me do finishing trials on the wines before they got bottled. So, it was setting up, you know, this wine with all of these different treatments, you know, finding agents or tannins or whatever, and which was really interesting, but God that is so far away from how, you know, how I make wine, how I would ever, I'd never do any of that, but it was interesting. So it was another, you know, just, I don't know if it dawned on me then that I definitely didn't want to doing that to my wine, but, um, but it was, it was a learning process.

Doug:
Interesting, because I, I've never seen that up close and personal, and, um, I guess you could call it, you know, I'm not trying to be negative, but I guess you call it more of an industrial wine making-

Helen:
Yeah, yeah.

Doug:
... as opposed to, um, artisan wine making or something like that.

Helen:
Totally.

Doug:
And, and there's nothing wrong with this, it's just a different scale and the, the end results are different product, and all the products are good in their own ... there's a place for all of them-

Helen:
Right.

Doug:
... and that's, that's fine, but it's just a different, it's just a different deal.

Helen:
Right.

Doug:
I get that. Interesting. We were talking about Dick Peterson earlier, who is, was on here a few episodes ago, but, uh, Heidi's father, great winemaker, but his, he started out at Gallo and he has some wonderful stories about Gallo, and it's, you know, wine making on a whole different scale.

Helen:
Right, right. Totally.

Doug:
So, where are we? We're still in Australia. You are a wine maker, night shift-

Helen:
Right.

Doug:
... for, for three months and then come back to Paradigm.

Helen:
To Paradigm.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
So, after that I, I went back to Paradigm and then I, I move, I wa- I was going to be finishing up at Paradigm because, um, I had been there for two years I think as the assistant winemaker.

Doug:
Okay. Right.

Helen:
And, um, I had married a guy who lived in L.A, and so-

Doug:
Tell me about it. That, that's, that's a big ... by the way, thanks for telling me-

Helen:
Oh, I don't think we need to talk about that.

Doug:
... thanks for telling me your story. This is really fun. I hope you're okay, 'cause I'm loving this. So te- marriages, you know, forget about it. Let's take a break from wine.

Helen:
Okay. Okay. I married the wrong guy and ... and he was in LA.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
So, I moved to LA and, and I started looking for a job in LA ... um, which, God, I probably, I feel like I sent out 50 resumes, you know, my, my, I did concentric circles and expanding, you know, mileage radius to try to find a job. And I ended up, um, luckily, I ended up in Santa Barbara, and, uh, got a job with Kathy Joseph at Fiddlehead.

Doug:
I heard about that and I just saw that and I go, gosh, Kathy.

Helen:
She's amazing.

Doug:
She's great. 

Doug:
Whenever we had conversations, you know, at tastings and things, it's like, I taste what she's making, it's like, "Man, that's good." So, how cool.

Helen:
She lives in Sacramento and she, um, put together a partnership deal to buy a vineyard-

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
... in the Santa Rita hills, and a beautiful vineyard. And so this was, this was very much in the early days. She had been making her wines at Zaca Mesa and I worked with her, she moved them to another winery that I'm totally forgetting the name of, but it was across the way. It was in the, um, in the industrial park in Lompoc-

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
Um, and so expansive corrugated metal buildings that have been kind of, you know, the floor has been ripped up and sloped with a s-, you know, a drain for wine making and cooling units at it. And so she was at, um, another winery, um, gosh, I can't remember the name of it. It was like Presidio something or, but there were a couple of other wineries in there, so it was like a very small, very, very small custom crush type outfit.

Doug:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Helen:
And, um, and then the following year she had, uh, purchased or leased a building and was converting that into a winery.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
So, the first year we were in this somebody else's building, and then the second year we were in our own building. So it was that process of, you know, retrofitting this, um, warehouse essentially, to become a winery, move ever- everything over, equipment purchase, you know, s- and she's a really, really smart, smart woman.

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
So I just learned a lot from her.

Doug:
But what a good, what a great experience for you in that one.

Helen:
And she's tremendous in the vineyard too, so we got to spend a lot of time in the vineyard as well.

Doug:
Good. So, you're with her for a couple of years?

Helen:
Two years.

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
And then I knew, you know, two years is sort of the segment of time if you're interested in continuing learning and, um, want to explore other things. So, I wanted ... you know, when I went to Napa from Davis, I loved Napa, and I knew that Napa was where I wanted to be. And so because of that, I wanted to get some experience outside of Napa because I had this feeling that as soon as I really invested in Napa, I wouldn't be able to leave-

Doug:
Okay. Fair enough.

Helen:
... just because you advance in your career and you get full time positions-

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
... that you know, lead to other things, you can't just pull out for a year or two or three months or it's very difficult.

Doug:
It's true. True.

Helen:
And so, um, the opportunity to go to Santa Barbara was great. The opportunity to make wine in Australia, even though it wasn't, wasn't really my type of wine making was tremendous. And what was left was making wine in the old world. And so I had gotten, when I was down in Santa Barbara, I had kept in touch with Heidi and she said, "I have this job. I want you to come up for it. It's coming up in a couple of years, um, but please keep this on your radar." And I said, "Absolutely."

Doug:
Okay.

Helen:
And so, um, I, I knew I was, I knew I had something in Napa and I wanted to do something abroad and wanted, I wanted it to be, um, Spain, France or Italy-

Doug:
Right.

Helen:
... you know, something, something very traditional. I loved wines from all of those countries. And at that point, I was really, I think I was really interested in Priorat, I loved Priorat. And so by chance I had become friends with the general manager, Victor Gallegos goes at Sea Smoke. And so we would catch up from time to time. And, um, after harvest in 2002, we had lunch and we were just catching up and he said, "What are your plans?" And I said, "Well, you know, this is my second year. I'm going to look for something ... I know I have something coming up in Napa. I'd like to do something abroad, namely in France, Italy or Spain."

Doug:
Spain.

Helen:
And his eyes lit up and he said, "Well, I've got this project in Spain in the Priorat, uh, with four other, you know, friends who are my partners, and we bought this vineyard," um, I think at that point, it was five years ago and they had planted it and they had an old section of Carignan, but they planted, you know, Grenache, Cabernet and, uh, Syrah. And so they had sold the first couple of vintages to another winery, uh, you know, grapes, and just waiting for the vines to be more mature to make quality wine. And this was going to be, you know, 2004, I guess it was.