Doug
Hey, everybody, Doug Shafer. Welcome to another episode of The Taste. today we've got a good neighbor friend of mine in Saint Helena. Our winemaking paths run parallel, but we don't intersect as often as they should. He's a busy guy, always moving his has made and continues to make fantastic wines here. Welcome, Dave Phinney. Dave, how are you doing?
Dave
Good, Doug. Thanks, thanks for having me.
Doug
All right, really appreciate you being here. It's great to have you on the podcast. We've got a lot to cover from The Prisoner, all to all the projects you're working on today. But before we get into that, I'd like to start way back at the beginning. where did you come from? Where were you born? Where did you grew up as a kid? All that stuff.
Dave
Oh, boy. It's, it's a little convoluted, but, not technically. I was actually born in Gilroy, California, and, lived there for about a week. My grandparents, were there and some uncles and aunts and then was relocated to West L.A., where I spent all my formative years, if you will.
But both my parents were professors and would sabbatical in Bristol, England. So we spent, year off and on living in Bristol, England, and traveling a lot in Europe and the rest of the world, actually, my parents were still are big travelers. So, kind of grew up all over, in a sense. But until I was 13, home base was West L.A., and then, in, eighth grade, I actually went to boarding school in Squaw Valley and Lake Tahoe.
I think it's now called Palisades. So I have that sort of caveat in there because my, my formative years, high school years were spent, up in, in Squaw Valley, in Tahoe and, and so kind of consider that a big part of, of, of how and where I grew up. And yeah, then that kind of led to, university where I, went to, University of New Orleans my freshman year, which is the LSU campus in New Orleans, just for no good reason except to go see what New Orleans was like, transferred, transferred from there to the University of Arizona.
And, during that period of time, was studying political science and interning for, the public defender's office as well as a congressman, and I was studying political science with a plan of going to law school.
And about three years in, realized I didn't want to be an attorney. And I didn't want to be involved in politics. And, uh-oh, you know, what am I going to be when I grow up? I'm a junior, and that's kind of where, wine entered into, my world, so to speak.
Doug
Okay. So I'm going to back up from it.
Doug
So first of all, I didn't know about the Squaw… Palisades, the Tahoe experience. So you've got to be a skier or you had to be high school up in Tahoe. Where you skiing?
Dave
Yeah. So I was very fortunate. My parents actually met skiing. So skiing was always a big part of our lives growing up. And that's why I asked to go to boarding school and in Tahoe and, and, yeah, I spent my first year, what we call chasing gates. So racing. And then the last three years was, skiing, moguls for the Squaw Valley freestyle team back in the day.
Doug
Oh, man. You still ski a lot. You have time?
Dave
Yeah, not as much as I used to. And also, I've. I've blew out both ACLs over the years and have had allograft and actually need to get a double knee replacement.
Been kind of putting it off, but I can still get out there and and for me, it's about getting up there in the, in the, in the clean air with the kids and riding the chairlift and oh yeah, thrilled to be up there when I can be.
Doug
Listen, when you want to do the double knees, talk to me. I did six years ago. Six years ago, and changed my life. All of a sudden, I can run down stairs and all of a sudden I can ski again. That's that's great.
Dave
That's. That's all I've heard. It's good stuff.
Doug
It's great. I mean, no bumps, you know, bumps are gone, but it's just now it's just groomers and go fast.
Dave
So it's I love it.
Doug
So but so you're bouncing around, activities and sports and high school is mostly skiing or were you ever doing any organized stuff?
Dave
No. It was pretty, pretty centered on skiing. You know, that's what the school was for. And, you know, we went to school half day and trained the other half of the day. So that was pretty much our lives.
Doug
I love it. And, just real quickly, how about wine at home with your folks? Was that when you were growing up?
Dave
Not really. I mean, my neither. My parents didn’t drink much, and my dad was more of a single malt, Scotch drinker. Even when he did drink one of his, collaborators. Guy named professor in, Bristol, Jake McMillan is Scottish. And so he kind of got him into the single malts. So there was always a, in the closet, a array of a dozen or so, you know, single malts that my dad would have, you know, 1 or 2 every once in a while. And then my mom, would occasionally drink some, if you remember, the Almaden, the jug Almaden, Chablis or whatever?
Doug
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Dave
Yeah, I know. It was, I didn't grow up in and around wine or grapes, so I didn't have that, that part of, the business, it was definitely something that I sort of stumbled into, like, like many other people.
Doug
Right. Yeah. My folks, they weren't drinking wine was, it was bourbon and beer in my house for sure.
Dave
Yeah, yeah.
Doug
I think the only way I would have been Mateus, maybe. And that was about it. Yeah. Yeah. so, hey, you mentioned University of Arizona in Tucson. So, you we've got, another fun fact I taught I taught junior high school in Tucson for a couple of years before I got into wine. Yeah.
Dave
Oh, my God, I didn't know that.
Doug
Yeah, I taught up at, Orin Grove Junior High up at the end of Campbell. well, yeah, in the foothills. Yeah. And. But -
Dave
Oh, you'll love this. One of my first jobs, if you will, in the wine or grape business was, got a, internship with a professor in the AG department. I was part of a group. He had just gotten a grant, and we planted, one-acre experimental block on the corner of River and Campbell.
Doug
That's the one you got the, I used to, I saw that I saw that vineyard. I remember there because I had my. Yeah. I remember that corner. I hope we're not boring the people out there, but this is kind of fun. That church, Saint Phillips of the Hills, was right at the same corner.
Dave
Yeah, and there was some fancy restaurant that we could. If we ever had enough money, we would take dates to across the street, and I can't remember the name of it anymore, but, yeah.
Doug
Well, I, I got I went down there kind of sight unseen, gotten an apartment right across the street from that church. I called my folks and I said, well, I found a place. It's on the corner of River and Campbell Cross was a church. My mom goes church across the street, I go, right? Yeah. Saint Phillips of the Hill. She goes, yeah, that's where your dad and I were married.
Dave
Oh, my God, that's so. Wow.
Doug
That was pretty cool. Were you, in fact, I was behind some little store called a Rum Runner.
Dave
Oh, no, I worked there.
Doug
You worked at the Rum Runner?
Dave
I worked for Tom and Janet there.
Doug
Oh, my God. Oh, yeah, I didn't know that. Okay, well, all right, there's our two. That's our show for today, folks. The Tucson wrap up.
Dave
There you go.
Doug
So you're in Tucson or you're you're U of A finishing up. You're helping plant the vineyard. Is that where the wine thing actually -
Dave
That happened after, no, that was subsequent to when I figured out what I didn't want to do. Okay. I was actually getting back skiing and skiing up in at Whistler in BC, and a buddy of mine called, and they needed a another roommate for a study abroad program in Florence, Italy.
And so I was like, sure, why not? So I went out to Florence, Italy, for a semester, and my roommate there was a guy named Tom Traverso, old friend of mine. You know, we were, fraternity brothers, and his family was in the business and is in the business, Traversos’.
Doug
Right.
Dave
In Sonoma. And Tom's dad, Bill, is one of the preeminent, wine educators in America, actually. So, Tom, you know, kind of got me into wine. And so most days we weren't traveling. After we were done with our studies, we would go to the local sort of super marché.
Doug
Right?
Dave
We'd get three magnums of red wine and we would go back to our room and, we would open the wines and, and Tom would talk us through them and say, okay, this is Sangiovese here. This is, you know, Montepulciano and and, you know, to have wine demystified by a contemporary, you know, using basically four letter words if necessary.
Doug
Right?
Dave
You know, one was was never because I'd had no exposure to it, you know, it was my, my first, you know, exposure to wine was in a very sort of literally collegiate, but also a very sort of opening and or open way. And the pretense was never there. And I look back on that now and just realize that I probably gained a decade of not of just not having to kind of sift through all that, you know, stuff that back in the day it was, you know, it's much different. That was almost 30 years ago. It was just a different world back then.
And and there was a bit of snobbery around wine. And so it was still, you know, you know, kind of this mystical thing that, you know, only certain people could make and etc., etc. and then, having that as my first sort of entree into it, really, I realized how important that was. Now, and yeah, after that six-month period, we, we had to go back and finish up our, our time in, Tucson, Tucson and, we were sort of sitting around, a bunch of us lamenting, you know, God, we got to go back to the real world.
And, you know, what are you going to do when you graduate? And Tom just looked at me and he said, you know, you seem to really enjoy drinking wine, but you're also seem to be very interested in, you know, grapes and wine. We thought about the wine business, and that's kind of when the, the light bulb went off.
And that's when I went back to Tucson, got the internship and helped plant that vineyard at River and Campbell, and then also got a job at the Rum Runner. Just trying to immerse myself any way I could in a, you know, everything in anything wine and and grapes. And that's what I was able to do. so yeah, that was kind of how I my first foray into the, into the wine business was in.
Doug
Wow. I wondered if I ever called on you went or I, I used to go back and call the Rum Runner. You were probably gone by then.
Dave
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And they wouldn't. You wouldn't be calling on me. I was like, the lowest guy on the. Oh, yeah.
Doug
No, no. that's how you start out. All right. Well, cool. So that's how it kicked in. And then, somehow you got to the Napa Valley. How how'd that happen?
Dave
Well, right when I was, you know, at that same time I was getting closer to graduation, so compiled my resume, sent it out to 50 different wineries. I had that that red Wine Spectator book was back in the day. It was like a Bible, and it had all the wineries. I think it was a California wine guide or something, and I, I selected 50 different Cabernet, mainly vineyards or wineries in the Napa Valley, and sent my resume out to every single one of them and got one response from Mondavi. And, I went up to interview for it when it was called back then, a temporary harvest worker, and it's when they were redoing the ToKalon room.
So I actually interviewed in a suit and tie was the last interview of the day in a in a, like a, construction trailer, because they were doing work and it was a guy named Bob Paddock and Jerry Egan and, you know, they literally, like, laughed at me when I came in because as a kid, if you're a U.S. citizen and you can pass a drug test and an a very rudimentary math test, you're you're basically hired.
And so, because I was the last interview the day that we spent about 45 minutes talking and Bob specifically said, hey, you know, it looks like you want to kind of see a little or as much of everything as you can and kind of get dirty. I said, absolutely. And he suggested that I work for him because he was the foreman down at their Carneros facility that is actually no longer there. It was off of, Duhig Road.
Doug
Right.
Dave
I mean, and, yeah, great spot. And and he said, the only problem is that all the day shifts are taken and see. This was the harvest in 1997. He said, you'll you'll have to work the night shift. And I said, well, hey, if that's what you're telling me to do, that's what I'll do.
So I worked the 330 to 1:00 am and you know, only white guy on an all Mexican crew after about a, I don't know, a week or so, they realized that I was not going to just be the lazy white boy, and they gave me a nickname and brought me in and taught me a lot of the, you know, stuff that you know, we still use to this day, you know, dragging hose is dragging hoses.
I learned how to operate a forklift. Probably the most important thing I learned. And, and then, you know, realize that that first harvest, you know, if I'm going to work this hard, both mentally and physically, eventually I want to do it for myself. So that was ‘97, 1998 is when I started Orin Swift. Okay.
And Orin is a combination. Orin is my dad's middle name, and Swift is my mother's maiden name, which is now her middle name as well as my middle name. So that's where the name of Orin Swift comes from. And but, two tons of Zinfandel in 1998, which, you know, was a much different harvest from 1997. Right? I was like, yeah, this is so fun. And everybody's in love. And, you know, the grapes came in super metered and there was never any rain. And then 98 was like, oh, wow.
Doug
Oh, wow. Especially it an especially wet Zinfandel. That can be a challenge.
Dave
Yeah, that was a big challenge.
Doug
Oh man.
Dave
Which was great because I got my you know.
Doug
Yeah.
Dave
Not to be too, foulmouthed. But, you know, I got my ass handed to me because there's is, you know, there's only so much you can do in a year like that. And there's what I what I found out very quickly is there's sort of no alchemy or silver bullet or anything like that. And, and it all starts in the vineyard and, and once you get it in the barn, there's only so much you can do.
And it was just a great, great learning lesson. And I'm glad that it was my first commercial harvest because I ended up not releasing anything. I was able to bulk out my five barrels is in to Joel Peterson over at Ravenswood, and I can't now, looking back, I can't believe they sent a truck over for five barrels at 15 bucks a gallon because everybody just needed wine back then, and and, I made my kind of made my money back and just kept punching and.
Doug
Yeah.
Dave
And then 1999 was a much better year. And, and then in 2000, which was again, kind of a tough year, similar to 98, a little bit wet, that's when we started Prisoner. and that was a kind of a happy accident. Had a, had a Zinfandel lot that was stuck and wouldn't go dry, but now looking back, most people would have considered it dry was like 4g/l.
And then had a bunch of small lots. I didn't know what I was going to do with, and then had a Cabernet lot that was good, but not great. So I knew I was not going to bottle that, you know, as a varietal and true story. I threw it all together to really deal with the residual sugar issue, threw it in a tank or put a bench trial together. And I was like, wow, that's pretty good. Had it run the took it up to ETS had the -
Doug
right.
Dave
- analysis run. And it was the numbers were good and threw it in a tank. I'll never forget it was right before 4th of July. I threw it into a tank, went up for 4th of July, came back and it had whatever residual sugar was left. It was fermented out over the weekend, which is insane.
Doug
That is kind of crazy. Wow.
Dave
Now it was like dry-dry.
Doug
Right.
Dave
And, that became the first that was all the wine I made and vintage 2000. And that became the first Prisoner.
Doug
All right. Now, you got to be kidding me. So this Prisoner, which, you know, as we'll talk about in a minute, you know, became incredibly popular and famous and successful. So it wasn't some calculated blending. It was just like, well, I got a little of this and a little of that. I'm just going to throw it all together and bingo. So -
Dave
Correct.
Doug
I think, Dave, I think you got come up with a better story. I can help you with that. You know, I mean, you know, I, I there was a vision, you know, the sun was setting and, you know, I, something like that.
Dave
Well, the, the I say the good news, though, is that that was that was like the, you know, luck will get you so far. Right. So that was the lucky part of it. And then it then there was and thank God now I'd had a few vintages under my belt. I'd worked with other winemakers, you know, I'd seen enough.
But I also knew, okay, we've got something here now, if because I didn't know if we were going to repeat it, I didn't know if that was going to be a one-off. I had no idea. But, you know, it was it was received well. And that was like the, the kind of the best pressure you can have is.
All right. Now you got to figure out, okay, this is the style we've established. And it's something that we've stuck with forever now is once you establish a style, you know, you have to be true to that style. And our only job, year in, year out is to improve upon that style. And so then it became, okay, this isn't there's as you know, there is no recipe for a blend like that or any blend for that matter.
So then it's like, okay, how do we recreate this as best we can year in, year out and just improve upon it? So that that was like a, again, great pressure to have and, and and that's what we tried to do until and with that particular brand, until I sold it in, 2009. So, you know, whatever, eight years later, basically. And the crazy thing is, and you'll appreciate this, as we started with 385 cases and vintage 2000, and when I sold the brand in 2009 was end of 2008, early 2009, it was at 85,000 cases. So that kind of growth, I mean it left a mark.
Doug
Wow. I bet you I can't even, you know, I can't even imagine making 85,000 cases of wine. That's incredible. I'm I've been listening to it's great. I mean, I'm thinking about the vintages because we talked about 90, 98. So 97 was a classic, gorgeous year here, you know, great ripeness. 98 to those who don't know, it was cool, chilly. We had rain we had to deal with, you know, grapes not getting ripe. You had some mold issues. It was a real challenge as Dave mentioned.
And then 99 was another gorgeous year, you know, great ripeness. And then 2000 was a challenge. So, you know, we always used to say every year is a vintage year in California. You know, not so for Napa Valley. I mean, it's so you had all those early experiences dealing with that stuff, and then you work on that, that brand and the blend.
And you're right, I'm with you 100%. You got to make it consistent, you know, so the consumer knows what they're getting when they buy the next one. That's really important. Yeah. Yep. Before we leave Prisoner, tell me about the label, because I know there's a story there because.
Dave
Yeah. No, it's it's it's, another not so, I should come up with a better story, but I was, as I mentioned, growing up, before my mother got her PhD, she got her, MFA or Master of Fine Arts at UCLA.
And then my grandfather was an archeologist and was a professor at Princeton. So I'd say all that because growing up, when we were living in England and we were traveling over Europe, and to this day, if I'm if I hang out with my, my mother specifically, we almost always go to a museum and and whether it's an art museum or natural history museum, whatever it is, there's always some component.
But when we were kids growing up, it was always in the morning. Most days we would go to a museum in whatever city we were in, and then in the afternoon we would, you know, it's up to me and my brother. We would get to choose an adventure kind of a thing.
Doug
Right.
Dave
So just the from the osmosis of just being dragged around, you know, to museum after museum as a kid, I just kind of said, look, if you can't beat them, join them. And my mom was great about, you know, this is, you know, guidebook time. So she would like, open up the guidebook and read about tell us. It was almost like every piece of art had a story. And she was she's a natural educator. So it was it was really cool. And and so I kind of you know, took to it a little bit.
My brother, who's a computer nerd, I like to joke about, he, he, he could care less. But, so when I was, on my 13th birthday, actually, that that was a gift the Prisoner, the Goya etching was a gift for my parents, for my birthday. And that's the actual size of the label is the etching.
So my brother, who did a little stint as a graphic designer, he helped put the sort of sunset in the background, and it was called The Prisoner. I mean, the piece of art was actually it's called The Little Prisoner or The Prisoner, depending on who you who you ask. Right. So we had a kind of a name built in and, the label, you know, because of the age of it, it was it was public domain.
I mean, I know that now, back then, I didn't know anything about intellectual property. And I was like, look, if I get caught, I just, you know, I guess it's a sorry kind of a thing, but, but no, and that's, that's been the label ever since. So, and, it was the first time that we had our original Orin Swift labels were very traditional, very conservative. And once we sort of got the the, you know, had the, the acceptance of that, you know, sort of more avant garde style label.
Doug
Right.
Dave
We, we really kind of ran with it.
Doug
Well, I'm with you and that so one question I had. So as The Prisoner is getting gaining popularity and you're increasing production right and left, was that the only wine that Orin Swift was making or did you make another varietals?
Dave
Two is that we we're making other varietals, okay. And all of which are in still in in in the current production. So -
Doug
Okay.
Dave
The real two that we're, we were making alongside were Mercury Head, which is our flagship Cabernet. and then Papillon on which is a Bordeaux style blend, and Veladora, which is a small production Napa Valley Sauvignon Blanc. And then right. Yeah, that was pretty much what we were making up until the sale.
Doug
Okay.
Dave
And, and then post-sale’s when we started expanding the, the now what kind of what we were left with, so to speak, which was everything except Prisoner and Saldo.
Doug
So The Prisoner, you basically kind of carved that out and sold that separate brand, if you will. Got it. Got it.
Dave
Exactly.
Doug
All right. Cool. Thank you for that. And then meanwhile, you start. You just don't quit, I love it. You started something called Locations. I think 2008, something like that. Tell me about that.
Dave
Yeah. So that was kind of when I was we, we also have a winery in the southeast of France, down actually near the Spanish border on the Mediterranean side.
A little town called Maury. The winery is called Department 66 and, mainly old vine Grenache. And, and when I was starting to spend a lot of time there, I mean, I still do, but, at that it was at the same time that it was like the housing crisis, ’08, ’09, was kind of coming to an end, but at the same time, there was a bit of a wine crisis in Europe.
And a lot of the especially in France, a lot of the the consumption was going down and a lot of the wine was actually being converted into ethanol. And it was just it was a very tough time.
Doug
Right.
Dave
And I was lamenting that with a buddy of mine, Richard Case, who's our winemaker down there and one of my best friends, and I remember I was sitting at the it's a Sheraton Hotel at Charles de Gaulle Airport, basically the most soulless hotel in the world.
And I was about to go in and, I was talking to Richard on the phone, and we were talking about that, this, this, this phenomenon that was going on in France. And I said, you know, what's crazy is some of that wine that's just being essentially destroyed or turned into ethanol. There's got to be some good wines in there that because, you know, in France, if it's not appellated, if it's not Bordeaux, Burgundy, Cotes du Rhone, you know, it just instantly becomes very, you know, the value goes way down though, right?
That doesn't always have to do with the quality. And so that's again when the sort of light bulb went off and, and on a long plane ride home and subsequent plane rides, I just kept thinking about, well, what could you do of if you had sort of no rules, no appellation? I mean, it started out as what could you do if you just looked at all those wines and what would be available, and what kind of wine could you make with sort of no rules and no appellation?
Then it became, alright, well, have you just incorporate the whole country or region and then would have it then it became a what have you had no vintage restriction either. So basically what if you could make the best wine you can make, you know, with no rules and that's, that's what happened with Locations. So started with France. And then actually Spain was the first that we bottled and released. But that was kind of by accident. But the first three, what we call the big three were we're we're sort of obvious Spain, France and Italy.
And then we did, Argentina and Corsica. We did separately as a Vermentino. We ended up making a Portuguese red, then a California red. Washington, Oregon, Texas. And part of those were because there was an opportunity and, well, there was always it was, you know, wine always comes first. But it was also to establish that family of trademarks, because what we didn't want to do is do like France. And then someone could do Italy, you know, because it's just a country code sticker. So we wanted to that's why we came out with three all at the same time that first year with France, Spain and Italy.
And then quickly to us did California, Washington, Oregon, Texas was just kind of a fun one because we have a, a friend, Kim McPherson, in Lubbock, who's an amazing guy and, an amazing winemaker. And, and I was, I was, I was so we did not expect to be making wine in Texas, but they actually grow some amazing grapes.
Doug
Kim, I, I went to Davis with Kim. In fact, he's,
Dave
Oh yeah?
Doug
He's been on this podcast. And let me tell you, you know, he walks into a room and it's just like, it's going to be a good time. It's just a lot. Yeah, he's the best. He's the best. So I had to throw that one in there.
Doug
Well, no, that's great. So you got all locations going on. And so The Prisoner you see sold to Huneeus in 2010. I think if I got my numbers right.
Dave
Yeah, it was like in the eight and in 2008, early 2009, depending on like when the actual papers were signed, I can't remember.
Doug
Okay. And then, time goes on and Orin Swift it. I think you sold that to Gallo in 2016. What what was that story?
Dave
That's correct. Yeah. Yeah, that was just another I mean, we it's kind of similar to Prisoner in the sense that, like, there was no plan to sell any brand. I didn't get into the business to do that. I didn't even really know it was done.
And then in the early days of Prisoner, I can't remember who first approached us about selling Prisoner. And I was like, you know, I didn't know that was a thing. And so we kind of went, you know, did the process and ended up selling to Huneeus. And I was like, oh, that's, you know, interesting. Whatever. You know, it was it was a good day.
And quite frankly. Well, you know, my kids, I yeah, very young kids at the time and, and also realized that, you know, it's it sounds a lot better to say we went from 385 cases to 85,000 cases. But, you know, that started with like, just me. And then it was like, you know, a couple other people were helping and that kind of growth. It like I said, it leaves a mark. And and there's not a lot of, time available for anything else.
And so part of the motivation to do that deal was just to kind of get my life back and be a husband and a dad, frankly. So it's very lucky that it happened when it did, because, you know, you it would have been hard to sustain both.
And, and I learned the lesson. So when we started to grow Orin Swift and I had a great team. I mean I always I've always had a great team and but the team was expanding and, and we kind of knew we, you know, gone through our first rodeo, etc..
Doug
Right.
Dave
And very similar where it wasn't Gallo that first approached us, but it was another one of the strategics, some very nice people that we didn't end up doing the deal with. But it was it was similar. We kind of someone started tapping our shoulder and. Right. That led to eventually to what I very much consider a partnership with Gallo, even though technically it was a sale and they do on the brand. But, you know, that was 2016. I signed on for a five year, you know, consulting agreement, which on a handshake turned into seven years. And now, as of last January, we just re-signed for another five years.
Doug
Oh, good.
Dave
And I just talked to to Joe C Gallo this morning. And, you know, I'm, I, I'm feel very, sort of proud and honored to be, not only associated with but working with, with the Gallo family literally as well as the extended family.
I just I could not be happier. They are an amazing group, you know, from top down and really allow me to, you know, get back into the fun part of winemaking and, and not have to deal with a lot of the, some of the day to day minutia, which, you know, we all get caught up in and oh, yeah, they did they they put me on the road a little more than I was used to.
And that was something that was new to me. They, they, they, they know how to do that. But, no, it's just been amazing and and it's really allowed, I mean, you can see the proliferation of brands since, since the purchase. It's just because I had more head space to. Oh, yeah. The more and more.
Doug
Yeah, the lineup's great. So yeah. So it's, you get to do the fun stuff, you get to be in the vineyards, make the wine. Yeah, you got to go on the road a little bit, but that's, that's always kind of fun. But you, you've gotten rid of all the, the other stuff which can really wear you down. I can relate to that.
Yeah. Well, nice. And you've got access to some really good vineyards. Probably, too, I bet.
Dave
Yeah, I know it was. It was kind of, I mean, I sort of, I, I sort of knew a little bit about what they had or didn't have, but when the, the entire portfolio opened, it was like, oh my god.
And then, you know, within a couple of years maybe I can't remember exactly the timing, but it was in the second or third year is when, they purchased Stagecoach and, and even before that purchase Orin Swift, we were the number one buyer of grapes from Stagecoach. And so when, and that's another story, that I sort of I don't know what I'm allowed to talk or not talk about, but I was somewhat involved with that and very proud to be involved with that, because Jan Krupp was a good friend and of course, the Gallos.
But, to see that and, and know how much of a win win that was for everybody and then have access to a vineyard that we were already, you know, sort of heavily invested in, so to speak, was pretty amazing. And, and, yeah. As you know, having availability for to fruit on, you know, any given year and you know, it's farming so there's ups and downs, right.
To know that, you know, that's never going to really be an issue is, is is nice. And also know that, you know, we're going to have the farmers there the highest farming standards. You know that we always insist on with outside growers. But with Gallo and what we call GBI and and there's, you know, internal growing machine, if you will.
You know it's just been amazing because we get you know, we get treated, you know, like everybody else in the family, so to speak, of other winemakers in the Gallo, system. And, you know, we asked for a few more things, probably, but, you know, it's, it's nice to have that, to have that control, so to speak.
Doug
That's great. Real quickly, Stagecoach Vineyard, to those who don't know, it's, gosh, it's at 300 acre Dave, probably.
Dave
Oh, God. I think it's like 650.
Doug
650 600 acres, at least down on the in the southeast kind of hill slash mountains of Napa County, Napa Valley. And it's a fantastic vineyard. And, Gallo purchased it. You know, when Dave mentioned and, having that control, that much great fruit is, pretty important long term.
So that's what Stagecoach is all about. So moving on, Dave, what about moving away from wine and moving into spirits? I'm thinking there's probably something to do with your dad being a single malt guy. Tell me, tell me about Savage and Cook. What's, what's going on with that?
Dave
Yeah. So that was a another sort of happy accident. I was I was like 15 years ago. I had a couple distributors, one in, California and one in Colorado, and asking about, hey, when are you going to get into brown spirits specifically, you know, whiskey and bourbon and rye? And I said, well, you know, I'm a wine guy. Why would I do that? And they both said, you know, I like to drink bourbon, but I'm not.
You know, that's not I'm not trained to do that. And they both, you know, said, well, because we can all make a lot of money, you know, if, if you know me, you know me at all. That's like a box that we do eventually check. But there's got to be more sort of there-there to do that. And so what happened was I was my my curiosity is definitely piqued.
So, I started doing, you know, my little research, if you will, and, and discovered very quickly how important the water is to, you know, spirits. So we had purchased a piece of property up in Alexander Valley. Originally we were going to plant a vineyard. It didn't work out, but we had this amazing set of different springs there.
It's up off a Geysers Road, and one of the springs in particular, you know, still produces like, undeveloped produces 40 gallons per minute. And it just goes down the road. I mean, it it makes you sick. I mean, it's just watching this water just, you know, basically evaporate. And we've been trying to figure out what to do with it.
So, you know, first thing we did, I like to say there was sort of three dominoes to fall. The first was the water. So we got a sample the water, cleaned it up, did a water tasting which you've never done a water tasting. I highly recommend it. It's kind of fun. And and not all water is created equally.
So, you know, water can taste very differently. And it's also one of the very few times there's about I think there was eight of us and ten waters, and it was unanimously we blind tasted the, the water. And actually we all chose our water. So that very rarely, as you know, Doug, that doesn't usually happen. So that was like all right.
And then we, you know, ran the tests on the mineral content and chemical composition. And it was, you know, would accommodate titrating spirits. So we were we were good there. So it's like, okay, check that box or that domino to fall was water. The second one was, what do we take a more winemaking approach to it and we grow our own grains.
So we have a friend out in winters, Bruce Rominger. He agreed to grow some grains for us. And specifically, what have we chose like non-GMO - I've got nothing against GMOs, but like, you know, some old heirloom varietal corn varietals which have cool names, like, in our case, the Bloody Butcher and Howling Mob. And, and we actually just released those bottled in bond, versions like two weeks ago, which we're very excited about.
But, so it was like, okay, like that, that was the other sort of domino to fall. And then the third was what have we? As I mentioned, my dad would drink single malt. And I remember like seeing some of those single malts were aged in like sherry or port barrels. And I mean, I sort of had a recollection of that, but also had read about it and I said, well, what have we finished?
Or, you know, some of our spirits in our once filled wine barrels? And that was the hardest part, because I said, look, but this can't be a gimmick. This can't be like, oh, we're in the wine business. So we're going to like, do this to sell spirits, right? And at the time, we were, I think, one of two people doing that anywhere, in the States and the good news was we knew the provenance of the barrels, etc.
But what we had to figure out was a doesn't make it better and at what level and what aging, you know, what level and time of aging and right. What we came to find out was it's about plus or minus, I would say it averages about three months, and it's about 30% of the total volume of any production.
So it's it's a lot less than you would think. But it does make a difference. And it helps a lot with the mid palate and the aromatics were like all right perfect. There's the three dominoes. There's a they're there. Let's get in the business. So that whole process took probably 18 to 24 months before we even decided to do it.
Doug
Right.
Dave
And we ended up finding, you know, this building on Mare Island and built a distillery. And, you know, then we were off to the races and and here we are.
Doug
Wow, wow. That's been great because, you know, I've been following it in the papers. I've still have to get down there. Oh, God. I must get myself a car.
Someone to drive me down. So I got and, and, you know, and good, good old Dave Phinney style, you're still not done, I guess I there's a new project I haven't even heard about. But what did some research tell me about the Santa Rita Hills? What's going on down there?
Dave
Yeah. So, when we were negotiating with Gallo, it was just coincidentally, we were also looking at, several properties, unplanted properties down in Santa Rita Hills Ave. Yeah, I've, I had and still have a very, an obsession kind of with Pinot noir and, so much so, in fact, that we do make a Grand Cru Mazis-Chambertin, red Burgundy. And, you know, we've, we've sort of gone down the Burgundy slash Pinot rabbit hole quite a bit and settled on about a 300 acre piece down there and ended up planting in two phases, 133 acres of vineyard, of which 125 is Pinot and the rest is Chardonnay. So just a tiny bit of Chardonnay and are kicking ourselves. I wish we would have planted more Chardonnay, the Chardonnay is amazing. I mean, you know, it's amazing too, but, but yeah, we just 2021 was our first commercial vintage. We just released the 2022, we are, you know, looking at the 2023, but it's, it's a big project.
I mean, you know, 133 acres. It's a lot of tonnage, and we sell quite a bit of the fruit right now, probably about 50% of the fruit to sort of friends and family and, and, of course, Gallo does or Orin Swift buys some fruit. There's, the, the project itself is called Our Lady of Guadalupe, which is the name of the vineyard.
And, there's already, I think, eight different wineries, vineyard designating, fruit from there, which we have to approve. So, yeah, it's kind of I don't want to say like it's the retirement plan, but it's kind of the retirement plan, although it doesn't feel like it right now because it's a I've. I forgot what it's like to launch a brand, and, and not have the, it's a carve out from Gallo. So it's, you know, everybody's very respectful each other. But, you know, I got very comfortable, you know, coming up with an idea and a brand and then saying, all right, now, Gallo, help me out. Out of all this. No, no, it's it's going. Yeah, I'm dragging a bag again.
Doug
Dragging the bag. Yeah. It's all right. Well, listen, you know, let me know. I'll, hire me. I'll work part time, I guess. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
Dave
No, it's it's fun. I, I forgot what it's like to have to pour someone a glass of wine, a buyer, and then then then to get, like, try not to get insulted when they tell you how bad your wine is. I'm like, oh, God, I forgot about this.
Doug
Right? Or. Yeah, or they make you got an appointment and they make you wait for 45 minutes.
Dave
Yeah, exactly.
Doug
The buyers, you know, some, nice young -
Dave
And all they all they want to talk about is Orin swift. So I'm like, oh, man. Okay. But which I have no problem doing, but no, it's a lot of fun.
And like I said, eventually it'll be, you know, we don't necessarily you well, you know, my kids, we don't. There's no pressure on them. And they know, you know, what we do. And if they do want to get in the business someday, you know this this may or may not be there, but it's it's something that I, I will do.
You know, I sort of have to make wine for the rest of my life because it's just as you know, you know, you I think this is my 28th harvest. At a certain point, you know, you just kind of it's just insane to think what you would do around this time of year. You know, you start to get that feeling.
So, if nothing else, this will be a way to to stay in the wine business between this and what we're doing in France and. And, yeah, it's it's a lot of fun.
Doug
Good for you. I don't want a I want to come see that French operation. Come visit.
Dave
Oh, I would love to. Love to show you around.
Doug
Yeah, yeah. And, just to wrap this thing up back here in Saint Helena, Napa Valley, you've got things going. Tell us about the the new Orin Swift tasting room. And, that whole experience, because that's kind of been local news in the last few months. What's going on there?
Dave
Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. We, we what we did is we expanded on the existing tasting room we had that was only about 700ft² of working space was tiny, as you probably remember.
And then next door, which was the old, you know, years and years ago was the Bank of Italy. Right. And then it was, the St. Helena Wine Center or the Bottle Shop. And that's a, I don't know, 3000ft². I mean, that's a real building. And, when, the, the Bottle Shop, they, they kind of shut their doors and, moved on and, and we had purchased both of those building from Fred Beringer and Kathy Beringer and, and, so the first thing I said to Gallo, I said, hey, you know, do we want to expand the before I talked to anybody else, do we want to expand the Orin Swift tasting room?
And it was a resounding yes. So, we spent about a year kind of planning and, and I think this was right around when sort of Covid was happening or right after Covid. So we had time to kind of, you know, poke around and see what was what. And we knew what sort of the bones of the building were like. And then, it went once we took off, if you remember, it had that sort of cultured stone wall stuff.
Doug
Right.
Dave
That was not very handsome. And, we were really surprised at how well they had created a sort of an exoskeleton around the original Art Deco plaster.
Doug
Right.
Dave
That we then were able to to restore and paint in it the light to me, it looks beautiful and and just really just expanded the footprint of Orin Swift and, and it's just been a knock on wood. It's been a, a great success. In fact, Kim and I, my wife and we were just there yesterday entertaining some friends from down southern California. And it was, it was it was a party in there. Yeah.
Doug
So now it's it's a gorgeous building. You guys have done a great job with it. It's really, really pretty. All right, man, I what else? Is there anything else going on coming down the pipe that I don't know about or that you want to share?
Dave
I'm sure. I mean, you know, we're we're still working on, you know, the Orin Swift, line is, is expanding within reason. You know, it's most of it'll be a lot of it will be direct to consumer and and sort of only available in the tasting room. We are working on a couple other little surprises for wholesale. The only other thing that we're that is, is of any consequence is the, sort of a direct to consumer, sort of subscription based, very small right now wine club called Gestalt.
And, that's been a lot of fun because it's really, getting back to that sort of making wine without any rules. And, you know, and also what's exciting for me is, is these sort of one off, what will end up being quarterly drops or are quarterly drops right now, it's, it's, a six pack every quarter.
And we've just started now collaborating, with, you know, technically, I'm the creative director and my brother in law, Tony Leonardini, is the, director of winemaking. Sebastian Lane is our, CEO. And then we've got an amazing group of sort of other, sort of founding partners, if you will. But the whole premise of it is to, well, we could do a collaboration because it's the idea is to collaborate with other winemakers, with other artists, musicians, interesting people from all walks of life and create this kind of community around, you know, that's centered around wine but also incorporates like experiences and, you know, kind of, again, cool collaboration.
So, you know, the wine is almost like table stakes and it's more of an excuse to start the conversation again with just other winemakers, other interesting people. And, and just, you know, harken back to kind of, well, you remember, I mean, just when everybody sort of helped everybody out, I mean, it still happens, but, you know, kind of get that, that more collaborative feel back and, and also have an avenue to explore different varietals and different blends and, you know, different AVAs.
And it'll be international, in fact. But but as you know, wine opens so many doors to people that, you know, I know I have no business knowing, and most of them want to try to make wine. So it's like, all right, well, now you got your wish.
Doug
So let's go.
Dave
You know, here's yeah, here's six different, you know, blending components. I'm going to sit here and watch and you know, and I might help out if you want. But that's you got to put your thumbprint on this and it's fun to watch people. They kind of get that deer in headlights and then they get really because you know, blending so much fun. And and these people just totally geek out on it.
And, and I think it's fun for, for the consumer and, and it's kind of proof that like, you know, I mean, everybody can be a winemaker at a certain point. And I think that's that's going to be a lot of fun is just to see what people come up with.
Doug
Well, it's like, well, I always yeah, I've said this before, you know, blend at home. And people said, what do you mean? I said, yeah, I said, I've always got like three half bottles of wine open because I like, you know, I try not to drink a bottle at night, you know, so and so there's, you know, I throw them in the fridge. It could be red, could be white, could be this varietal, that varietal.
And sometimes. Now I'm, you know, I've got pour somebody’s cab or Syrah. It's like, wow, it's really good. But man, It's just so much. And you know, we're having salmon. It's like, you know, that's how I got a little sauvignon block leftover from last night. So for a little bit on that and people say you're crazy. Why would I said try it. It's great.
Dave
It’s so much fun.
Doug
Sometimes it's not great. And that's kind of cool to you kind of figure out what's going on.
Dave
Exactly.
Doug
So you too can be a winemaker, ladies and gentlemen.
Dave
Exactly.
Doug
All right. hey, if people want to find your wines, is it. Or their website is just the Orin Swift website, is that the best way to go?
Dave
Yeah, it's the easiest way is Orin Swift. And then if you just Google my name, usually everything comes up, including Prisoner. But we got we're no longer involved with that. But most everything else that's on there is, is we've got some kind of a touch point with it, but especially Orin Swift and of course Our Lady of Guadalupe and Gastalt.
But those are in and Department 66 and France. But those are kind of the, the wine related avenues and then, and then Savage and Cook. But yeah, that's kind of the best way.
Doug
All right, man, Dave, thanks for taking the time. Thanks for your story. It's, it's been a great story. It continues to be a great one. We'll we will keep track of you as the years go on. Take care, man.
Dave
Awesome, awesome. You too. Doug. Thank you.
Doug
You bet.
Thanks. Bye bye.
Doug
Hey, everybody. Doug Shafer, welcome to another episode of The Taste. Real pleasure today to have a promising up and comer Napa Valley winemaker. I first met her. Well, I didn't meet her, at the time. I watched her playing youth sports in St. Helena alongside my kids. back in the mid-2000s. Naturally lost track of her, then reacquainted a few months ago, Chelsea, we were doing a premiere Napa Valley Zoom webinar deal and at that point, it's like, I got to get Chelsea on the podcast. So Chelsea Barrett, winemaker, Napa Valley, welcome to The Taste.
Chelsea
Thank you for having me.
Doug
It's so good to have you here. I've really been looking forward to this because, as you know, we've had most your family on this podcast. Your granddad Richard Peterson, your mom, Heidi Barrett, and your dad, Bo Barrett. And now you, I think -
Chelsea
Yes, I've listened to all those episodes and they're all really fun to hear. All their stories.
Doug
I'm sure you've heard them a few times, but, maybe some new ones.
Chelsea
Some new ones. Yeah.
Doug
So anyway, obviously born here in Napa Valley, I'm assuming. Early memories about growing up here in the valley and Chateau Montelena, Calistoga. Talk to me about that.
Chelsea
Yeah. So I grew up in Calistoga. my parents live, in a house that is, their their property is near the Montelena property. So there's they adjoin through. So it was a very rural place to grow up. And so it was just, me and my sister. So it was really a make your own fun sort of place and we were always very into, making different art projects, working in the garden with my mom. And we had, we had horses also so we were always, you know, riding in the vineyards and, spent a lot of time going to work with both my parents. We hung out at Montelena a lot. And any time as a kid, if you if you need money, there's always a job to do in a winery.
So we really spent a lot of time, at, at both of their jobs.
Doug
Cool. So you were, you're out in the country. That's what you're into. And, and and, when you got into school and activity sports or anything like that.
Chelsea
Yeah. So, so my sister and I, yeah, we both played softball, growing up and so through, through in high school, that was, I would say, like my main organized activity, but mostly we did, yeah, a lot of different art projects.
We were always, you know, sewing and making things and, definitely a rotating, rotating amount of hobbies. I was always very into baking, too, and and still am.
Doug
All right. Good. And high school was high school in St. Helena or Calistoga?
Chelsea
Neither. I we I went to Ursuline in Santa Rosa.
Doug
Okay, great.
Chelsea
Yeah. Yeah,
Doug
How about, during school, other kids whose family owned wineries in Napa. Sonoma.
Chelsea
Well, absolutely. Yeah. So for kindergarten through eighth grade, I went to St. Helena Catholic, which is now defunct. But yeah, I definitely it's a lot, of lot of very familiar last names, of course, of like Trinchero, Chiarello, Mondavi, like so many different kids.
And so I feel like there's a lot of people that I lost track of for a while. And a lot of people had, left Napa Valley working on, you know, building their careers in other places. And now I'm seeing more and more people come back in their 30s. So it's kind of fun to, to run into people who, have lived elsewhere for a while. And so there's still a lot of us around who went to Catholic school.
Doug
And I'm flashing back on where you guys grew up, you and your sister, with your folks and being that close to the winery and back and forth. But it probably the whole life cycle of the wine business and the vintage and from, you know, frost machines going off in the spring, in the middle of the night to hot summer days, to irrigation, to harvest, bottling days when your folks have to get up at dawn and get in to sterilize a bottling line and then harvest and long days and feeding the crews.
I mean, that was probably, I'm assuming, was that just kind of ingrained in your memory banks? I mean, that was just it. Were you were you aware of all that, all those types of things going on and when you were a kid?
Chelsea
Yes, but it's something where it's when it's your whole world and you don't know anything outside of that. Like you sort of assume that everybody's life is like that. And because there's so many, you know, all the other kids who lived upvalley, then most people's families worked for a winery. So that was pretty normal of like what you would talk about with other kids at school. Your other friends, like, yeah, most people are pretty familiar with, with that, the only, the first experience I had that was really eye opening that not everybody lived that way was I went to summer camp, when I was seven, in Clallam, Washington, to a horse camp, and it was like, oh my gosh, all these city kids from Seattle and Belfast of like, yeah, of just completely different upbringings of what it was like to, to live in a city also.
Doug
So as a kid and as you start to get, you know, older and high school and maybe thinking about career, were you always thinking about wine at that point or with other, other interests? Because I know you had others.
Chelsea
Yeah, it was on my mind. I would say I was always very good at at math and science, and I was, I liked art as well. So I had a mix of interests. I thought I would probably do something more, more math heavy. I thought about, architecture and engineering.
I thought about being a doctor. If all these different things. But I really loved UC Davis. I had been, been to Picnic Day as a kid there, and I just loved the campus. I just loved everything about Davis, of seeing everybody cruise around on their bikes and seeing all the livestock and, the quad there. Just everything about Davis seemed so incredible to me.
And then my sister is two years older and she was already going there. So I had been visiting Davis, for a couple of years already when I wanted to go to college. So I. Davis was still, I knew I wanted to go there, no matter what I was going to study. And then it seemed sort of like, okay, well, let's just start this.
I'll declare for viticulture and enology. And then all of the, you know, prerequisite classes, the first couple of years are mostly math and science. If I wanted to switch to something medical later, I would already be ready to do that. But then once I started taking more of the wine classes, then all of the things that I'd been doing for years, you know, my high school jobs of topping barrels, then it starts to click of like, oh, that's why we do that, you know, understanding the why behind, you know, the level of cleanliness of how I'd been cleaning tanks, all of these things really started to make way more sense for understanding what I had been doing already in wineries.
Doug
So must be kind of fun. Did you ever call your folks up and say, hey, now I know. Now I know why you made me scrub that thing so much.
Chelsea
Yes, yes I did. Yeah, we got to talk about it a lot, which was fun.
Doug
That's kind of fun, and I can, I can, you know, I've been on the other side of it when my kids call me and have revelations like that, that it happened a few times in college and it was it was a lot of fun. It's like, because all of us, you know, it was from a parent's point of view, it was like your kids calling you up and saying, hey, you do that, right?
So yeah, we do that and go, that's really good. My profs. That's a really good way too good thing to do when you manage a business as well. Thank you, son. You've got to.
Chelsea
Yes. Absolutely. Glad you're seeing it.
Doug
Finally. But, you know, I think they both went to Davis, right?
Chelsea
No, my mom went to Davis and my dad moved around a bit. He went to, well, University of Utah and, and then mostly, mostly Fresno. He did take a few classes at Davis, but, he, he considers Fresno to be his alma mater.
Doug
Oh, for sure. And great, great enology program. So but you know, you're going to the, the courses you know, much later. You know, many years past them. Were there new things they were teaching you at Davis that kind of maybe weren't the same that your folks did. I'm sure there were. But would that generate I mean, would you call and say, hey, I think, mom, dad, I think you guys are doing that wrong. I mean, what to do that ever happen? It's kind of cool.
Chelsea
I don't know if there was ever anything that I called out. I think there were a lot of things that were very similar, even down to when my mom had been at Davis. So, Roger Bolton had, had just started at that time. And then my mom had done research in Hildegarde Hayman's lab when she was a grad student.
And so it was very fun to see the overlap. And, yeah. So some of the same professors, but then some new also, of course. And so I was still, I think the last class where we still had our, our winemaking lab was in Wickson in before having the new, the new Mondavi Center. So I had a few classes in Mondavi, but we didn't use that winery yet.
So I'm still jealous of seeing how fancy all those little automatic fermenters are. And, like, no, we would have to go in on the weekends and do our punch downs three times a day, and yeah, so there's still even more new things with Davis. That's really cool that, even I feel like I'm like, you know, a generation behind on some of the new, new things coming out of Davis.
Doug
Oh, I'm with you. I drove through Davis, who was about 4 or 5 months ago, just for fun. I tried to find all the 4 or 5 places I'd lived, you know, around town and I found three of them, but I couldn't find two others. I think they tore them down and built subdivisions or something like that, which is kind of weird, because you kind of think it's always going to stay the same. But it doesn’t.
Chelsea
Yeah. And then it's changed a lot.
Doug
Yeah. How about classmates of Davis and Enology program? Any anybody else? Anybody we might know around here?
Chelsea
Yeah, absolutely. So, Marc Gagnon, who's at Caldwell. Let's see, I could, you know, list a whole bunch. So Maura Christophers, who's now Maura Johnson, works for Dana.
Let's see. I wish I had prepared better on this one, but. Yeah. So, Brittany, Brittany Sherwood, who was, Brittany Deb, she was a year behind me, a Davis. She's the Heitz winemaker, and we're, we're good friends. Yeah, definitely a lot of classmates, but I still see a lot of. Oh. Alex Farber, also who works for Naked Wines, is, a close friend.
Yeah. So definitely a mix of mix of people from Davis, that are still around. I know some of my friends, like Jesse Clemenson moved to, moved to McMinnville. So she works in vineyard management there. So some people scattered, but yeah, a lot stayed in Napa.
Doug
That's nice. You got, you know, a core group with a lot of history. You know, it's nice to have people to call up and say, hey, you know, have you ever seen this before? Those types of things?
Chelsea
Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Mark Davis also who, is a good friend who, is a winemaker. And we do that a lot, too. We'll catch up and just kind of see how, how harvest is going. What are you seeing?
Doug
Yeah. For sure. Always. And, and equipment. I remember it used to be a big help with that. If I was looking for a new press or filter or something like that, having folks I knew, you know, who had experience with it was a lot of help. So it's always good to have.
Chelsea
Absolutely. Yeah. If you're anything you want to research, then it doesn't take more than a few phone calls of, friends to get the answer you're looking for of a winery that you can, you know, somebody who's going to let you come by and, observe of how they use this piece of equipment.
Doug
Right? Because the sales guys, they never know that, you know, you should correct that valve when you're getting to the top of the tank or this or that, all the little all those things that we know about. Cool. So after Davis then what happened? Where did you go?
Chelsea
Yeah. So after that, I went to work in Austria, which when I was at Davis, it had definitely been, you know, of course, everybody's talking about like, oh, where are you going to go to intern and, you know, France, Germany or like, or mostly it was France and Spain and Italy were the ones people talked about.
And I was like, yeah, I want to do something different. And so I had known this guy named Franz Regner since I was a kid. He was an Austrian intern who had worked at Montelena, when I was a kid. And we always he came a couple of years in a row, and our families always stayed really close.
And so then Franz, going back to, if you know anything about the Austrian wine industry, Franz is very, very well-known there. But he also created a program in Austria to help Austrian students, to work abroad, and then also to bring international, you know, wine students to work at wineries in Austria. So I did the program with him to help get a placement, at a winery in Austria.
And then he had asked like, oh, where do you want to be? Do you want to be in Wachau? Like, do you want to be in Burgenland or Vienna? And I was like, oh, wait, stop there. Vienna. And so, I wanted to be in Vienna because again, I am from Calistoga. And so it was such an incredible opportunity to work for a winery, but also live in a major city.
So that was really, you know, there's there's nothing else like that. and so the winery I worked for is called Mayer am Pfarrplatz, and it's in the north part of the city, a district that's called Grinzing, and then the wine region there is the Nussberg so that translates to Nut Hill. and it's a very cool place.
So it's very, you know, historic based on the proximity to Vienna, like one of the main things there is Gemischter Satz, which is like a field blend, literally. So all these different estates there have, you know, they're kind of specific thing of all these very, very unusual varieties, things like Rotgipfler and, different Traminers, you know, all kinds of stuff that, you tend to not see as single varietal things here.
Doug
Oh, how fun that must mean great seeing new grapes and new wines. What a kick that must been great.
Chelsea
Absolutely. Yeah.
Doug
And, what what what was your job? Where did you do everything or anything specific?
Chelsea
Yeah, a bit of everything. So I worked in the cellar. The, Mayer am Pfarrplatz is, a winery that was built in the 1600s. So the cellar is very old. It's all underground under the winery. So, the crush pad is up top, and then all of the tanks and everything is is down below. So the winemaker and I were mostly on the, you know, the below deck, and then, and then there was a, there like cellar master was usually up top.
So she would run the press like pretty much everything we had was, was whites. All, you know, Riesling, Gruner and yeah, Gewurztraminer, things like that. And then we only had one one little bit of Pinot.
Doug
Got it.
Chelsea
And so then, so she was up top getting things pressed, and then, and then his name is Dragos Pavelescu. I think he's the head winemaker there now. And we're still very good friends. he's a Romanian guy who's like, one of the smartest people I've ever met. He's, yeah, we still sent each other research papers to this day. and, So. Yeah, so he and I were below just running, running the cellar, doing doing everything.
And it's a lot of different wines, you know, tons of different very small tanks and all from all these little, you know, microclimates there.
Doug
How fun. How, how long were you there for?
Chelsea
I was there for five months.
Doug
Okay. Hey, I have a question. A question just I'm kind of curious because, you know, hospitality has become such a big part of, you know, the North Coast, Napa Valley wineries, you know, most California winery, just hospitality, tasting visit. What was it like there in Vienna? Was that a big part of the whole program at that place?
Chelsea
Oh, absolutely. It's so cool. It's actually like a Unesco heritage thing. So they have, Heuriger. So Heuriger is like a wine tavern. And so where there's all these specific, like, cultural rules about it, about not having, you know, hot food.
So there's, there's two different kinds. So the Heuriger is like, more like a tavern that's like an at the winery kind of set up. And then there's the Buschenschank. So, and that is more like going for a picnic where you have sort of, like a little hillside hut more or less. And so then people come from the city to, you know, sit out kind of like from, you know, coming to Napa from San Francisco, you know, people come up to the Nussberg to, to go to, you know, the schank and you get a plate of something like, you know, traditional dish would be like a beef carpaccio with pumpkin seed oil.
Doug
Right?
Chelsea
And then you get, you know, from the, you know, usually kegged or something like, or even a less refined version of that of wines that aren't bottled yet where it's something that's, you know, something that's very from the current vintage to celebrate the harvest. So people are very, very into it.
Doug
Good, good. So five months there. Then what happened?
Chelsea
Then I went I came home for, you know, about a month, and then, in that time, I met. Well, so I don't know how to have too much to get ahead. When I was home for that month, I went to wine tech with my mom, and I met Michael Silacci.
Doug
Who’s at Opus One.
Chelsea
Yeah. And so I already had planned for, like, right away after Austria, I was going to go to Australia. I had lined up that I was going to work for, for Two Hands there. Okay. And so it was very, nice when I, I already had lined up that I was going to go work for Opus before I left for Australia.
Doug
Oh, no, that was like that.
Chelsea
Yeah. Yes. I felt so organized of being able to have, have everything, you know, have my next step laid out. but yeah. So then I went to Barossa Valley and I worked for, for Two Hands. And so that was, a different cellar experience for sure, because I went from a place where it was, you know, cold and dark, and I was underground in the cellar with the winemaker, you know, most of the day of, like, just the two of us, two having a completely different winery experience.
They hired ten interns at Two Hands, and so and quite a few of which were also American. And so it was much more social. Everything is, you know, outdoors, the winery was so intensely physical of going from, you know, working in a winery that mostly handles white wines, like you're you're cleaning stuff a lot, and you're moving things around with hoses like it's not heavy lifting in a physical job the way it is when you're only making red wines, when you're, you're rolling puncheons and you're doing all these pump overs and punch downs and, yeah, and 12-hour shifts.
So we worked either 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. for 13 days, and then you would have your day off, and then you would switch to then either on day shift or night shift.
Doug
They worked round the clock? Now, is this just harvest? Was this this harvest? This harvest? Okay. Rolling puncheons. Just for fun.
I haven't seen a puncheon in a long time, but I do remember when I worked at Lake Spring a million years ago, a, puncheon, 120 gallons, right?
Chelsea
Yeah. They're, they're heavy.
Doug
Barrels are 60 and they're heavy enough. Rolling them is a bit of a trick, but they try to roll a puncheon which is twice their weight and and try to keep – yeah. It's that just brought back a few memories. But. So anyway, so Michael Twelftree. He's a slave driver. He is the proprietor of Two Hands in Australia, and he's a very good friend of mine. I think I've mentioned that to you one time.
Chelsea
Oh yeah, he's great. He’s such a character
Doug
He's just, character. I'm, I'm hoping you didn't have to run into him too much. Or did you?
Chelsea
Oh, we saw him for sure, but yeah. So he is involved with then they also had, like, a winemaker and a cellar master, too. So he, he got to have, like, the fun part of mostly just hanging out with us for, you know, having pizza and having dinner together sometimes, but, yeah, but that he, it was definitely very well organized.
Doug
Now he's he's a great guy. A heck of a personality, makes incredibly great, beautiful red wines and, we have we do have serious conversations once while he and I, usually it's, we're just poking fun at each other, and he's telling me that -
Chelsea
For sure.
Doug
- Napa doesn't know what they're doing. I'm telling you, you know, sources are behind the times, and he just goes back and forth. It's always fun.
Chelsea
Definitely an Australian pastime of, you know, of poking each other like that. Yeah.
Doug
Geez, I tell you. All right. So crush in Australia, and then you came. It looks like you came back to Opus.
Chelsea
Yeah. Then I did, Opus One had a maturity, phenolic maturity project, which I think is, kind of changed of how they do it exactly. I'm not sure what the current status for the project is. But yeah, it's an independent research project that they have an internship position for. So it was a little bit longer. I think I was at Opus for seven months doing that. So it's a different way of like, I wasn't really working harvest. I'm there. I'm, you know, I have my rows and my blocks and collecting samples. And so then they have these specific blocks that they're, want to track, you know, you're checking a phenolic assay. So really, so you're measuring the amount of tannin, phenol, and so, and then comparing it from across vintages.
And they had, you know, more than 20 years worth of data that we could pull from. So really compiling the weather data and looking at these things and then comparing, trying to match up the qualitative data to like make it, you know, make the numbers mean something really.
Doug
Right.
Chelsea
And so it's a little bit tricky. And like, honestly, one of the findings like, is, not new to me. I think most people have figured this one out, but the only thing that I could really say, Oh, yeah, also, this vintage was 2011. So this was a very cold, cold, wet year. But if you've had any of the 2011’s recently, like, they're really good. Like the wines I think have really come around in a way that in 2011 we didn't see it coming.
So I still love drinking 2011 and the Opus for 2011 is delicious. But yeah, I've seeing for that year that, yeah, the correlation between berry size and, the intensity of flavors. Yes. There's definitely that is something to that. So not the greatest research project I would say in terms of like of my addition to it because I, it was just such a hard year to make the numbers from 2011 match up to, to what else there had been.
Doug
Oh, I bet. And oh, it was a challenging year. Did you miss being part of harvest since you've been as opposed because you were just kind of stuck in the lab doing that?
Chelsea
Well, I got along really well with their enologist at the time was, Lucia Solis. And so she was a great mentor.
And so even though it was doing the on my own project, I wasn't really, you know, collaborating with the rest of the cellar crew. So I still knew the other interns, you know, pretty well. But it definitely was different of having something a bit more independent. But it did really, really, refine my lab skills. I got, you know, it's just so much better at, at all of those techniques.
Doug
Good. And and listen, if you had to miss a crush, you know, 2011, as far as being on the front lines, that was probably a good one to miss. It was, it was pretty frustrating. It was, there were some amazingly looking, amazing looking things, growing on grapes that year.
Chelsea
Yes. Very, very fluffy,
Doug
But a lot of people made great wines, so we did it. So you're there for what? Yeah. I think you said 3 or 4 months at Opus.
Chelsea
Opus was seven.
Doug
Okay.
Chelsea
Yeah, a little bit longer. And then I knew I didn't want to keep traveling at the time, it had been, you know, three internships in a row. I felt like was kind of enough. I was a little tired of living out of a suitcase, and I wanted to be, just wanted to get a, you know, get a start. I wanted a full-time job. And so that was a hard year to find something. So I actually worked in a wine bar for, about three months while I was, hunting. I worked for 1313 while I was while I was job hunting. But then eventually Joel Gott came up, and, so that was awesome.
I started there, in the summer, like, just before harvest 2012, as an enologist. And so I think I was an enologist for maybe, maybe two years. So I worked for Joell Gott for seven years. And then was promoted up from assistant winemaker and then to winemaker also, before I left.
Doug
Wow. Congrats. That's it because when you left, you know, if you can say how many they were making a lot. They're making a lot of wine, I mean.
Chelsea
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean it read really grown of so, so when I think it was acquired or partnered with Trinchero in 2009. And then really started to grow quickly after that. So it had been, you know, not very large.
I mean, our office was, you know, in a tiny little, like, converted house in St. Helena. And so then we very quickly with like the amount of employees, the amount of room that we needed for everything, really just kept growing. So, yeah, I saw, I mean, a lot of growth and a lot of change over that period of time.
Doug
And it must have been because I think, you know, for that brand with Trinchero, I think you're probably sourcing grapes or wines from all over the state. So I'm guessing a big part of your job was just working on blends. Big blends.
Chelsea
Absolutely. I mean, just the the logistics of it was, was pretty incredible because, yeah, we had so many, we had so many custom crush facilities.
And so I think the the record year was we crushed at 17 different facilities. And so just the logistics of if you need to put a cab blend together and you've got wines at ten facilities just to coordinate of having, you know, good samples, the amounts you need so that you can physically put it together.
Doug
Wow.
Chelsea
And just to make sure like, yes, this works where we need, you know, more Merlot with this one or, of just figuring out or how to then truck that all around. Do you have a tank that's big enough to put this blend together? Do we have, you know, the right the right oak balance for it? Yeah, it was just it was a lot of planning.
Doug
Well, how how neat that you had this experience. I mean, from working in, you know, mid-sized, medium-sized, small operations to extremely large operations. I mean, you're, the experience you're building here is just great. It's like you've you haven't seen it all before. You've seen a lot of it.
Chelsea
Yeah, I would say that with Gott it is like a super-charged amount of, information and, you know, learning with each harvest because you're seeing, yeah, Santa Barbara all the way up through Washington state.
I worked on a project that, was a collaboration with Dave Phinney for making a Grenache from the south of France. Right. So, yeah, I mean, for for one brand. Yes, absolutely. I saw I saw a lot of things and just learning how many different, yeah. And also seeing so many different wineries to that working in custom crash, you see a lot of different ways that the facilities like to operate. And then also the clients at those facilities, you know, you meet a lot of, a lot of other winemakers working at custom crush.
Doug
A great experience, especially with people I got to ask you a question. Did you ever hang out, facility on Hoffman Lane?
Chelsea
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. That was, that was one of my main ones during the the last few years. For Gott, I managed everything that we made at, yeah, at Hoffman Lane and also the ranch.
Doug
So Hoffman Lane is, a little, a little road, just, just to the south of Yountville, a mile south of Yountville, north of Napa, about eight miles. And what you don't know, Chelsea, is that's where that's where I worked for my first cellar job.
Chelsea
Lake Spring.
Doug
Lake Spring.
Chelsea
Wow.
Doug
Wow, well, back and, well, a long time ago, that was like 1980, 81. But-
Chelsea
Well, when I started, you would have felt right at home. The lab was completely unchanged from, you know, from the 80s.
Doug
That was a tiny lab. That was a real tiny lab.
Chelsea
Yeah. With all the original equipment was still in there. When Gott took it over.
Doug
They didn't have the basketball hoop up in the back storeroom. Still, did they know, okay, that was gone. It was just a Randy Mason, who was my boss. And it's just the two of us. So if we get bored or play a little one on one. Kill time. So you're at Gott. You left Gott in 17, I think. Is that right?
Chelsea
’19.
Doug
2019. And at that point, ‘19 at this point, when did you start making wine with your mom?
Chelsea
So that was let's see. So that was 2017. So that also, I got promoted to winemaker at Gott also in 2017. and I also had my, my first daughter that year. And so then, I, when I was on maternity leave, this really got me thinking about what I was working on. And, I knew I was ready for, ready for more, to having a new baby is a funny time to think about this. It was like, wow, I really want to be building my career right now. And, so yeah, then talking to my mom, there were a few things that were coming up.
Well, so also one thing with, with Joel Gott, we previously had been making more Grenache, and then with Trinchero, they were pivoting away from that, that we were going to, cut the Grenache program. But I had already made this really beautiful Grenache, from John Pelcan's ranch that that's Sarah Gott's dad. So this incredible nice Knights Valley Grenache that I'd made, and I loved it. And we were going to blend it out into, you know, something else. Since we're not going to be making Grenache anymore for Gott.
Doug
Right.
Chelsea
And they allowed me to purchase it, and so this was a good start for something with my mom. And so then we ended up putting a little bit more of a blend together, using that Grenache as the base.
And so that was our first vintage of Aviatrix. So that was a trademark that my mom already had because she's a pilot. She's a helicopter pilot. And so she knew she wanted to do something with that label. She had trademarked it, but just didn't have the right thing come up yet. And I was like, mom, I've got the wine for this.
Like, this is a great idea. This is going to be really fun. And having a brand that, where La Sirena is pretty much all, you know, all Napa related wines and then Aviatrix, is a chance for us to do, you know, something else of, like, outside of Napa and have wines at, you know, a more affordable price point as well.
Chelsea
So we're still making, making wines under that label and still, still making Grenache.
Doug
Good because I love Grenache. I need to get some of that. So what's it like working with your mom? Are you guys as far as being winemakers?
Of course there's always the family thing, but it's from a professional winemaking point of view. Similar styles I would guess, maybe so, maybe not?
Chelsea
So, yeah, very similar styles. Yeah. I think my mom and I are a lot alike in general and I've learned, I've learned so much from her about making wine, about, you know, the getting the balance right about, just figuring out, you know, how to how to train yourself to trust your gut at those key decisions of when am I pressing?
Like, what am I? You know, which barrels am I picking for this, of that decisiveness and figuring out how to get there? A lot of the style that I have, in all my winemaking is, comes from things that I've learned from my mom. Absolutely. And so with that said, like there is an element of during harvest where, you know, we have a similar skill set, it is possible to have too many cooks in the kitchen.
You know, and so there's an element of where we don't want to double up, like we're both really busy. Like, we can't we can't be doubling up on, you know, checking the same fermenters, know every day.
Doug
Right, right.
Chelsea
So we'll taste around together when we can. But my role for our collaborations, I tend to hone in more on the vineyards.
I tend to do a lot more of the, checking on sampling, checking in on, you know, the contracts, farming, making sure that everything is, is how we want it farmed. And then she tends to be at the wineries more often, you know, during, during harvest where our wines are made. Whereas like, I've got Materra, I've got a lot of other things going on.
So I tend to be, kind of handle it more from our vineyard side and then she'll handle it a little bit more in the winery. And then we'll do the blends together.
Doug
Nice, nice. You know, you you mentioned she was a pilot. I think you both your folks are pilots, right? Helicopter and plane.
Chelsea
Yeah. So my mom just flies helicopter, and then my dad has a fixed wing and helicopter rating.
Doug
So do you have that bug, too? Are you flying?
Chelsea
Someday I would like to, but right now, like, I also like we mentioned, you know, the first of kids, but I have three children, and so I'm in a phase where, Yeah, that's definitely takes up more of my time. I'm a. Yeah. So airplanes, it'll, it'll come with time. But right now it's not not the season of life for me.
Doug
You hang in there. The kids do grow and get old and then move out and there's more time, I can promise you that. So that's great. So then the whole Materra, that's where you're at now? Materra Cunat Family Vineyards. I'm. You know, I'm not that familiar with that winery story.
And, could you share that with us? Could you share and then how you got there and what's going on with that whole project?
Chelsea
Yeah, sure. So the backstory for Materra. So, the winery is located in the Oak Knoll District. We're on Big Ranch Road. So Brian and Mickey Cunat. So, Brian is from Illinois and worked in, you know, his family was in, you know, farming and then also in, in real estate, construction.
And then he and Mickey met, Mickey is Japanese. She came to the U.S as an exchange, you know, college exchange program. And they met at the time. And then Brian started getting really into wine with Mickey's family back in Japan. Of that, her uncle had a wine shop, and so they started, you know, he started drinking a lot more Bordeaux there. And then they started coming out to Napa, and eventually they found this property that had been owned by the Yeager's and it was all for farmed, just as, as a 50 acre property, all all planted to Merlot. But it was, you know, more rundown. It really needed to be redeveloped. So Foley, ripped it and then, replanted.
Really with varietals that are super well suited. if I showed you a map of this property, it looks like a crazy little patchwork of irregular shaped blocks. And so everything is on these little, you know, microclimates of ideal soil planted with the, the right rootstock, the right clone that makes it a really interesting vineyard to work with.
So about half and half of it is Chardonnay and Merlot here. It's, mostly clay loam soils here, so it's good, great spot for Merlot and for Chardonnay. And then we have some Sauv Blanc. We have some Malbec. We've got a little bit of Viogner. And then, so going going with that as our main base of, like, in Oak Knoll, we don't have an ideal site for a growing Cab, so I really, that was something that drew me to the project of, having your heart in the right place and going with, you know, what's really going to be the best, and then we also have some sources of Cab in, in other locations, so, so we're, we're buying Cab. But so then the winery was built in 2015, and then, it's beautiful facility and it's larger than what Materra needs for now absolutely. So we're only, you know, crushing it about 15% of it. And the rest is filled in with with custom crushed clients too.
So hopefully Materra will be able to to grow a bit to take a little more of the space. But I don't know how big it'll ever make sense for for the brand to get. And so I again, after I had, you know, baby number two in 2019, I was looking to make a change to it with Joel Gott it was, you know, it was a lot of traveling around of going up to Oregon and Washington, Santa Barbara, Lodi, you know, and I just wanted something that was you know, one spot and, and I was ready for ready to move up also.
Doug
Oh, good.
Chelsea
Yeah. And then so the connection was, so Brittany Sherwood, who's the Heitz winemaker, is friends with Harry Heitz and Harry is the GM here.
And so he had, asked Brittany if he if he knew of anybody. And so Brittany connected us and then it was just like, oh, yeah, this is definitely meant to be. So then I started in 2019 and just, have had so much fun figuring it out of, because now the winery has, you know, everything is really in place now, of having, for, for a newer brand like, we have a great winery. I mean, everything is just state of the art. We have beautiful vineyard. and so the owners and Harry have been really awesome. It's been a great team to work with. and they've really been very trusting with, with my vision and the style of wines that I want to make. So I'm having a blast.
Doug
Good. And so when did they first get wine on the market? Was that just recently?
Chelsea
Pretty recent. Yeah, I think it was, it was very, very tiny until I think around 2015 of starting to have, their own, you know, having their own facility of growing a little more from there.
Doug
Sure.
Chelsea
So right now, as of, like, what we're bottling for, in the last year, I think we're at about maybe in the 7000 cases per year mark.
Doug
Yeah. Good size, good starters. Yeah. Okay, folks, you heard it here up and coming hot new winery, by the way. That is that's really good land for Chardonnay. Years ago I used to buy Chardonnay from Jay Corley who's right next door to Materra.
Chelsea
Yeah, that's our nextdoor neighbor.
Doug
Yeah. It was it was just delightful because it's, it's not too hot, and it's it's it's not too cold is just right. So great area. Good. All right, well, I've got to trade you some wine so I can try some of that.
Chelsea
Absolutely.
Doug
Yeah. So that's where you're at now. You've been making wine for a long time. You've got grandfather, mom, and dad winemakers. And I'm assuming you guys chat if you've got issues, you call them for advice.
Is that does that work, or do they ever kind of come in and say, hey, I tried your new wine from XYZ and, you know, I think you should do this or that. I mean, how's how's that work out?
Chelsea
Absolutely. Yeah, we definitely tend to, show each other like our little, you know, problems if something that if you can't quite figure it out, then, yeah, definitely, we'll go to each other on things. And even now, even though, like my parents obviously have, you know, years of experience on things, but because of my experience, I've definitely worked with regions, varieties that they have not. And also, I'm also more familiar with some of the new tech too, of like, new, new equipment, you know, new yeasts, like all that sort of stuff.
I've definitely kept up on a lot of the new developments too. So we've talked about some things like that as well.
Doug
Are they I because I'm kind of a dinosaur or are they open to the new stuff? They, they listen to you?
Chelsea
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, a lot of it wasn't like, you know, my ideas necessarily that of things, but like my dad, is so excited about, like the automatic pump overs that Montelena has now and like, so there's like some new stuff to that. They're, you know, that they've gotten really into.
Doug
That's because he and I are the same age. We're tired of hauling hoses up and down.
Chelsea
Yes, labor saving is a perfectly, you know, a valid reason to get into things.
Doug
I mean, you know, back when we were, you know, 30 it was one thing. Now it's a different story. It's like, whoa. So besides family, any big, any great mentors or that you've had in your career?
Chelsea
Yeah. Well, so, absolutely. My parents, I mean, like. Yeah, my mom and I work still so closely, and, like, I mean, we either see each other every day or we're on the phone multiple times a day.
So. Yeah. So we talk about everything, and then. Yeah. So Dragos Pavelescu, who was my, you know, my boss in Austria, right. And he's awesome. So I definitely sell, it has been a great mentor. yeah. And Michael Silacci as well. And then yeah, Sarah Gott I mean, Joel Gott too, and then Alisa Jacobson from, from Joel Gott as well. Great. But yeah, a lot of good I've got, I've worked with so many good people and like, even people that I haven't worked directly for of.
The wine industry is just the best of, like, if you ask somebody if you go out of your way to, like, hey, like, I know, you know, this cool thing, will you tell me about it? People will spend a lot of time talking to you. It's very nice.
Doug
Yeah, it's it's that's because we all love it. It's fun stuff. A lot of passion in this industry, but, I've got a question for you. I think I got this right. You've got three kids now.
Chelsea
I do. I have three girls.
Doug
Congratulations.
Chelsea
Thank you.
Doug
And you're doing everything we've talked about today. How do you do it?
Chelsea
A lot of help. So now after we had, you know, our third daughter, then my husband went back to just working part time. And so that's, that's one aspect of it. Yeah, we have, you know, we have great daycare and then my parents are here, and then my husband's mom also lives in Calistoga. So it is really, like divide and conquer effort, you know, it's, it's a lot.
Absolutely.
Doug
Yeah. Yeah.
Chelsea
But, I mean, we there's no way we could do it without, like, with without the amount of family help we have.
Doug
Yeah, you've got to have it, because it's just a lot going on.
And, you know, I was listening to the names you're rattling off of folks.
You went to Davis with and, you know, this is just a generational thing, but I don't I think I knew 1 or 2 of them, but the rest, I don't know, never heard the names before. There's a whole generation, new generation of winemakers running around here. I'm kind of curious because you're that much more tied into my generation, the older generation, what we have done and do, what new what are you guys what's this next crew bringing to the winemaking, you know.
Well, I mean what - is it new stuff new attitude. What do you think is there are there any differences that they jump out for you.
Chelsea
Yeah that's tough to say because it's everybody is so individualized that it's hard to say, like, you know, that based on age, if there's a trend because I would say there's, you know, people who are in their, you know, 60s and 70s who are winemakers that don't necessarily have a ton in common either.
Doug
Right.
Chelsea
And so, yeah, I would say there's a mix I think there's, there's some of us who are, you know, the Davis grads also, who are, you know, very into, the research and still tying in, you know, traditional winemaking with that. I think there's a lot of advances in, in farming, too. I think, all of the, you know, sustainable regenerative farming.
I think that's definitely, like very hot right now with, with younger generations. Absolutely. So, yeah, I would say a lot of the differences or, you know, just what keeps growing or what's, you know, on the horizon, I think has to do a lot with, with farming, more than even changes to winemaking techniques.
I mean, the equipment we have now is so good. I think that's something that, you know, the, the changes with the equipment that we've had. But again, it's not generational. Everybody's benefiting from this. You know, more more precise, more gentle, just we have such great equipment now that wasn't available to, when, you know, when my parents were first starting out. Absolutely.
Doug
Oh, it really is. I remember the crushers that your folks and I first started with, and they were just.
Chelsea
It's basically a blender.
Doug
Yeah. Oh, it was just horrible. But at the time, it was great. Wow. This thing works great. yeah. Little did we know. But, just right there, that's almost. That's the one that always was the biggest change for me.
What's next for you?
Chelsea
Yeah, I think we definitely have a lot of, like, exciting development with Materra. So, like, our brand new tasting room is going to open this summer and that's, that's a big addition.
So I think I think Materra is still, you know, taking off like I think this is really an exciting phase for us. I'm still feeling like, you know, sort of still feeling like a newcomer and that, the amount of time when I'm, you know, presenting Materra for something that, it had gone from, you know, really nobody having ever heard of it.
And then now, we definitely are getting, you know, more of a following. And that's really exciting to see. I love sharing that with people. So I think, I'm so excited to keep to keep building this. And yeah, I like working on my side projects as well. I started making, I started making Lamborn last year also.
My mom retired from that. And so I love working with the Lamborns so much. And making Zin is, Well, I mean, I made a little bit of Zin with Gott, but making, you know, these Zins is is new for me. And that's not something that I do with any of my other clients.
Doug
How fun.
Chelsea
Yeah. So I'm having a great time and I feel like I'm managing to balance it as as well as I can. But yeah, I really like the variety of it as well.
Doug
Good, good. So where can people find these wines? Materra. The wine to make with your mom. What's what's the best? Where should they look?
Chelsea
On our websites is, is the best. So, Aviatrix is on the La Sirena wine website. Okay. And then Materra is Materrawines.com. Yeah. So we have some some local retailers too, but we work with distributors. We have a wine club. Yeah, that’s where you can find them.
Doug
Good. All right. Well, we'll check them out. And so the tasting room is going to be at the winery, which is right, I guess it's the new tasting room is at the facility, correct?
Chelsea
Yes. That’s right.
Doug
Which is on Oak Knoll. No, it's not what's right. Okay. It's on the green.
Chelsea
It's on Big Ranch.
Doug
Got it. Yeah. Which was just 8 or 9 miles north of Napa in the center of the valley, in case you can't find it, but just keep looking for it. Chelsea, thank you so much for taking the time. You are so busy.
Chelsea
I really appreciate this. This has been fun to catch up.
Doug
You have a great day. We'll see you around.
Chelsea
All right. Thank you.
Doug
Okay. Thanks. Bye bye. Okay.
Full Transcript
Doug
Hey, everybody. Doug Shafer, Welcome back to another episode of The Taste. Today's guest has been making wine here in the Napa Valley since 2001. But I have to admit, our paths really never crossed until just a few weeks ago when we were doing a Zoom presentation together for Premiere Napa Valley. Well, we hit it off instantly, and I am hearing just a little bit of his story. I had to get him on this podcast so I can hear the whole thing. A great winemaker here in Napa. He's involved with over 25 brands. Jean Hoefliger, Jean, welcome.
Jean
Thank you. Thanks for having me, Doug. You know, I think over the years I was just too intimidated to come and talk to such a rock star as you are. So that's probably why our paths didn't didn't cross.
Doug
Oh man. Would you tell my kids that?
Jean
Of course I would. I would. And I'm sure they'd think the same.
Doug
So anyway, you grew up in Switzerland, and so I want to hear about that. You know, where did you live? What was your family like? Give me the, give me the 911 there.
Jean
Yeah, With pleasure. Yeah. I was born and raised in Lausanne, Switzerland, so on the lake of Geneva. And my dad is Swiss. My mom's American from the East Coast, from Boston. And they met when she was doing a foreign exchange program with Smith in Geneva and kind of never left.
And so it was a family of my parents and my two sisters and I. And, you know, it's funny because one of your you know, one of the subject that we're going to approach, obviously in our discussion is wine and win, alcohol in general played a really, really big role in my life, but not at all, as people would expect, in the sense that the first ten years of my life, my mom was a drinking alcoholic and then got sober 40 years ago.
Exactly. To that to the year and decided to run rehab centers for a living. And so, you know, I was really impacted by alcohol fairly fast, not obviously for the right reasons. But then she decided to take me with her on the road to kind of do presentation for the publicly traded company so I could speak to families that are facing addiction.
And so really early on I was made aware of the problem that alcohol can create. And that was fairly interesting. And when you think that now I'm the winemaker, I think there's a lot to say about it.
Doug
That's that's a great story. I mean, and it's a good ending. But you're right. I mean, I don't think I've come across anyone who's kind of came at the wine industry, you know, without that type of background.
Kind of fascinating, actually, growing up in Switzerland, I mean, I've been there. I've traveled selling wine. It's gorgeous. But, you know, it's we think of the Alps, we think of the sheep and the goats and the banks and neutrality. Most Americans don't really know much more about Switzerland than that. Is there anything that it's really that you could share with that whole issue?
Jean
Yeah, with what you look, I think often in life you have the qualities of your faults and the faults of your qualities. And and I think in Switzerland it's exactly that.
Switzerland is a postcard country where the meadows hasn't moved for about 500 years, where protection of nature, of of building, of history is extremely strong, where there's a very strong civic sense, everything, it's a direct democracy where a hundred thousand people can actually ask for a national vote on any given topic. And so that creates that. It is a an ultra democracy if you want, but things don't really change.
So it is beautiful, it is gorgeous, but it's fairly static. And so when you are like me when I was about 25 years old, 23 years old and really start to thinking about going the wine industry, you see a country that was at least at the time, too static. It was not, you know, entrepreneurial. It was not creative enough for me. And that's why I decided to, you know, start traveling and ultimately, you know, settle in California the way I did.
Doug
So you were, you wanted to get out there and do it. You were you're kind of basically more American than Swiss, it sounds like.
Jean
Yeah, because, you know, I started my career in in Switzerland working on Gamay, Pinot and Chasselas, you know, the family friend winery as a as a cellar rat.
And one day he jumped in the cellar and says, Jean, come here and I'm you know, I said, Yes, what's up? I found you a job in California. You take it or you're fired. And I kind of love conflict. So I said, okay, I'm fired and walked away. And then two days later, I called him back, you know, after putting my two brain cells together and said, What is that opportunity about?
And it was about working in Dry Creek, a year in the cellar in six months, and the marketing. And already at that time, that was 1993, I saw a wine industry in the U.S. that were that was so ahead. You were already lining up at any given wine shop to get a chance to pour the buyer and then to compete for a spot in his in his shop, you know, for for him to sell the wine.
And I really, really enjoyed that kind of fairly high energy creative, less static side of the of the business. So I think at the back of me, of course, I traveled in many other different places after that. But I really, in the back of my mind always kept that, you know, that American wine industry, that American way of doing a as something I want to come back to which which I did later in life.
Doug
That's that's amazing. You know but taking a step back because I did some research on you, you know, you know, before the wine thing, you, it sounds like you were in law school. Did you actually become a lawyer?
Jean
No, I actually as a lot of attorneys tell me all the time I was smarter than them because I realized before I was done, you know, it's it's really after two years of law school and playing cards and drinking wine that I realized that, you know, it was not my cup of tea.
Swiss people have the reputation of being slow. I guess it's kind of true because it took me two years to to find that that pattern. And then after law school, I went into wealth management because somebody guaranteed me a six-digit salary if I would if I were if I was to follow their path into the finance world.
And the same theme, after a year and a half or two came back where I'm like, is money really that important? The key to, you know, to happiness? And I decided to not and and understood that the reoccurring theme was constantly wine. And that's when I decided to start, you know, working in a, in a cellar as a cellar rat just to make sure that it was going to be the rest of my life and what I would do for a living.
Doug
So where did the wine thing hit? When did the interest hit? What was the moment or was there a moment or just a series of.
Jean
Yeah, it's it's it's a series of moment because obviously and I think that's still for the most part, the total of the population is slightly different between European countries and the U.S. because obviously of the length of history.
But, but wine in Europe is a daily consumption good. And so it's something that is on on any given table at lunch and dinner as a beverages as you know as part of of cultural habits if you want. And so you know being exposed to different wines at different, you know, events and different dinners and stuff like that, I really started picking up on on the, you know, on the the beverage itself.
And and honestly, it's it's personality. Even today when I blend wines and I'm, you know, I'm in front of a hundred wine that has to become, yeah, let's say five different SKUs. I envision the wine as, as as people or art forms. And so I think I got that from the very beginning of understanding the, the differences in expression, mainly more textural than aromatic, especially at the beginning.
And where I would see almost shapes in wine. And I think that was a big part of the attraction that I that I had for, for wine. And then the second part when I got to learn about wine was really that constant battle between scientific, you know, organic chemistry and all that. The things that you study when you become a winemaker and an art, a pure expression of an emotion ultimately.
And so I really like playing with with both of these factors because I think it's it's a huge part of of making wine.
Doug
And speaking about learning wine the whole education so I think you went to the it's the Swiss Federal School of Winemaking was that after law school and it was that place like?
Jean
Yeah it was it was after law school and so after law school I started in Switzerland. Then I went to Hartford Family, where it where I was making Pinot with Bob Cabral and Dan Goldfield at the time. And then I went to South Africa and to Chateau Carbonnieux in Bordeaux. And something happened at Carbonnieux where where the the winemaker invited me over at his house on the second night. And I was I remember I was sweating bullets.
I was so nervous. And of course, he sits me down and decides that it would be great to blind taste me and out of pure luck, and I said today it was literally pure luck, I found five of the six characters or, you know, answers that that he was expecting. And so he built a pretty good confidence. And he wanted me to help him not only to Carbonnieux on the whites, but gave me kind of the managerial responsibility on one of their satellite chateau.
And at the end of that, that kind of job, I asked him, I said, you know, I said, would you think I should do should I be a self-made winemaker or should I go to school? And he said, look, I think it's always better to have the safety net of a diploma. And so I followed his advice and went back to Switzerland.
And that's cool is it's quite amazing. It's a it's a full campus, only about wine and, you know, and farming. And so it's like a complete university where you have acres and acres of vineyard to play with. You have six different cellars. You can you can really, have five different labs. And it's a complete university based on nothing because it's also the federal research center in addition to being a school.
And so I looked at the time and really started learning about wine and, you know, the first two years we drank and tasted only water, you know, I know, sorry, the first ten months only water, because they wanted us, you know, to have the the differences between acid in sweetness and saltiness and iodine and minerality and so and so on.
And then you build, you build your knowledge and and you know, at the end of it, you're you have a diploma. But I think one of the fortunate things that I did in my career was to actually build my experience prior to having a degree, because after completing the winemaking agriculture degree, I was right away marketable. And so that helped me a lot. You know, when I applied to different, to different places to work because I was already with some type of experience.
Doug
Well, yeah, because you've experienced, you've been doing cellar work. You were at both in Bordeaux and South Africa then. So then when you get to school, you know, it kind of makes sense. It probably you probably learn even more.
But I got a question for us before we get too far away from Switzerland. What's the what's the wine? The grape industry. The wine industry like in Switzerland? I mean, I always assumed it was white wine only because it's got to be too cold. And then I was on a trade marketing trip once and I got taken out to a guy who was making he made this fabulous, fabulous Pinot Noir.
But but fill me in on that. What's the what are the main varietals? What do people drink what do they grow?
Jean
Well, yeah, Switzerland. Switzerland, you know, a lot of people don't realize that Switzerland is actually a very big wine drinking society and community. And Switzerland is a country that is divided in three different languages. There's four, but but mainly three, which is the French, the German and the Italian speaking.
And every region has its wine culture on the Italian part. It is more Merlot based on the French part, it is more Pinot, Gamay, Chasselas, you know Pinot, Pinot, obviously with Burgundy, everybody knows that Gamay as well, but Chasselas is a white high acidity varietal that gives a really wine that is not extremely expressive. And so it took a while for me for the wine industry to progress because it is a fairly wealthy country.
And so they ended up you're consuming 95% of their wines, their entire, you know, history throughout throughout history. And it's when they started to have problems selling their wine within their, you know, their frontiers in a way, because they open their, you know, the free trade to to cheaper wine, to less expensive wine that that producers really started to be obligated of improving the quality of their product.
And that's when the school attendance went up. That's when a lot of producers went back to to really working hard at at improving their product. They're building the quality of their product. And so now you have Chasselas that are that are much more subtle, that are, you know, much more expressive than they used to be. So I think over the last, I would say 25 years or so, there was really, really big progress as far as the the Chasselas world and how to make these wines.
And something that a lot of people don't know is the fact that the Rhone Valley, the Rhone actually starts in Switzerland. It's in the part of Switzerland called the Valais. And so then the Rhone becomes the lake of Geneva and then passes in France and goes back to that to to the sea of obviously the Mediterranean Sea. But but on on the birth of the Rhone, there's a lot of Syrah as well. And so, so, so really, depending on what region of Switzerland you visit, you'll have a different a different varietal to to taste and enjoy.
Doug
All right. I need to go back. I need to get out of France and go into Switzerland part of Rhone. So then after school, working in Bordeaux, South Africa in 2001 Jean, you make this move to Napa Valley. I mean, that's made your I'm just dying to hear this story. How did that happen? How'd you get to Napa Valley?
Jean
Well, after after school, you know, I decided to to go and take a little break, actually. And enjoy life. So I went to party with some friends, you know, along the Atlantic Ocean. At a little town called Arcachon South of Bordeaux, and my girlfriend at the time who was going to become my wife a year later and asked me, did you send all the resumes, you know, and and looking for a job.
She was an attorney, so she was on top of things much more than I was. And and so I decided to to, you know, to kind of say yes, yes, yes, and lie to her. And she showed up for the weekend and all the letters were still on my nightstand, you know, and so she actually grabbed the pile, went straight to the post office, sent themnd five days later, I received a phone call from Lynch Bages. And Lynch Bages says, would you would be interested in interviewing with you. And so I spent a little bit of time at Lynch Bages but fast I saw that the Bordeaux aristocracy, the Bordeaux system was was too static, was too was just too rigid in a way for me at the time.
And I decided to go back to the U.S. And so I sent 320 resumes, you know, across across the state of California. And I received answers from Lodi to the Napa Valley. And I'll never forget, because at the time, it's you know, I received an answer from Lodi. It was 85,000 bucks, you know, to be to be a winemaker there.
And then I received an answer from Newton Vineyard at 38,000 bucks. And so I'm like, do I go for money or do I go for quality? And I made the commitment, you know, to work in the premium world. And so I accepted the Newton offer and and moved to the U.S. My, my, my wife was transferred by her law firm to San Francisco.
And and I showed up, obviously, unfortunately, end of August 2001. And the harvest already had started on certain Merlots, but but I was there and, and I was the winemaker at Newton for about five years working with Su Hua & Peter Newton and on the on the Spring Mountain Appellation and really learning how it was to make wine you know in a warmer climate and in Napa Valley because I've never worked I worked on the other side obviously in Sonoma but never in Napa and that was that was absolutely amazing because if you look at the pedigree of this estate, you know, winemakers like obviously John Konnsgard and Foreman and Aaron Pott and Andy Erickson and you know we all went and Luc Morlet we all went through Newton at one point in our career. And so I think it was a really, really great training ground for for Napa winemakers.
Doug
Of course, they had a great bunch of winemakers there. You know, I you know, you and I both know them all, but man, August 2001, right? You know, harvest had already started and you show up. That must have been like a three-ring circus.
Jean
It was a difficult circus, you know, especially, you know, after right after it's 9/11. And so I'll never forget because on on 9/11, Paul Pontallier, who's used to be the, you know, the winemaker and CEO of Chateau Margaux, was visiting because he was one of the friends of Mrs. Newton that would come in and give us advice and taste with us.
And, you know, nobody could think straight and on that terrible day. And so, yeah, it was it was a rough it was for sure, a rough, rough beginning. And you had to jump fairly fast and to and to, you know, hard work and making sure that you focus extremely, you know, well on what's going on because it was complicated.
Doug
It was it was a tough time. And the thing that you know it's the quality of the vintage as I recall, was just fantastic. I loved our 2001’s. But I mean, it was just overshadowed by 911, which was unfortunate. But those wines have held up very, very well. You must said they must have been wild for you to walk into harvest with some of the ripeness that was coming in compared to what you.
Yes. With grapes compared to what you'd worked with before. You know, cooler regions, not this, you know, sugars and ripeness going just crazy sometimes when it gets hot.
Jean
Yeah, that was that was a big, you know, it's a it was a big, a big challenge for me because as you know better than me, you know, in a warmer vintage like this you have sugar accumulation that is farther faster than you phenolic ripeness.
And so you also have an impact on the pH and if you have a little bit higher pH, you have you know, more risks of micro-deviances. And I remember one of the really difficult thing was in 2001 we had a tank where lactobacillus took over and we were losing two and a half to three brix a day on fermentation.
And at the same time we're increasing. VA At 0.5 per day. And so that was a nice way to start your journey.
Doug
You know, I got to tell you, and I need to take a moment to explain what Jean and I were talking about because I had one of those one year too. It was kind of crazy. I forget what year, thank goodness.
So basically, ladies and gentlemen, you've got wine fermenting. It's it's a yeast fermentation. It's know it's yeast basically turning sugar into alcohol, giving off carbon dioxide and heat. And with the red wines, we like them to go through malolactic fermentation, which is a secondary fermentation. Basically takes malic acid and changes in the lactic acid and makes the wine more stable.
However, once in a while, especially with lower acid which is higher pH, which is comes from riper grapes, you could have a something called lactobacillus start and that's actually it goes after the malic acid, just like a ML bug would. But the results are something you get a lot of what's called VA, volatile acidity, which kind of smells like nail polish, doesn't smell much like wine and it happens really fast and it's almost like it's out of control.
You can't control it and you don't necessarily lose that whole tank, but it's definitely affected, at least in my experience. But as Jean was saying, when it's happened and right during harvest and the thing is like, you know, going so fast, you know, in four or five hours, it's turning in five hours more. And the next day it's like, my God, It's just a pretty helpless feeling, right? Jean
Jean
Yeah, it was. I mean, I was I was literally spending all my weekends and nights running all the gas still, you know, and making sure that I would run this on a very, very tight schedule to to make sure nothing else was moving. Yeah, it was a it was a stressful, stressful vintage, that's for sure.
Doug
I'm glad we kind of touched on this one. I mean, a lot of times, you know, we travel around and we talk about making wine, how wonderful it is, and we love it. And it is. We do. But, you know, there's a lot of things going on behind the scenes and especially at harvest with fermentations and that whole process, things can get a little crazy and wild and you've got to keep, you know, your eyes and ears and nose and taste buds on every tank, watching it all the time.
So Newton, for five years after that on to Alpha Omega in 2006. Tell me about that. The birth of Alpha.
Jean
Yeah, you know, it's it's really funny. And one of the things that that Newton or my, my wine career you know history and path taught me is don't ever count people out and things always happen for a reason and through my career you know in different places I always found people to reappear at a different time later in life.
And in the case of when I was at Newton, for example, Mrs. Newton couldn't come, you know, to to a to a tasting and asked me to host a tasting with a German family. I tasted, you know, for 2 hours with them. We hit it pretty well. They came back a year and a half later when I was up, you know, still at Newton with a great bottle of Bordeaux to thank me.
And they ended up hiring me to consult for them in Tuscany. You know, the same thing I was helping a really good friend of a of Peter Newton, a son, Eric Sklar making his merlot in his garage, giving him advice about fermentation, etc. And when Eric Sklar and Robin Baggett decided to, you know, to start Alpha Omega, they actually came out, talked to Peter Newton.
And at the time, Peter was selling 80% of his company to LVMH and knew that that I was not, you know, the happiest of of guys for that transition and said, take him away. He'll be he'll be great for you guys. And so I ended up starting Alpha Omega with Robin and Eric back in that can actually 2005 already and then we opened in 2006 And so it was kind of kind of nice because it's also the first time that I was given the responsibility of of the winemaking of a new brand.
When you end up, you know, as a as one of the winemaker in a winery like Newton that has a legacy, you're not going to dramatically change the style of of something has as well known as the unfiltered chardonnay of Newton, for example. But when you start a new brand like, like Alpha Omega, you can really determine and define the identity of the product.
And so it's something that I enjoyed doing a lot because it was really up to me to decide what I wanted to do. And because they asked me fairly fast to run the business and the winemaking together, I could also make sure that the direction of the business was the same and was aligned with the winemaking side of the business.
So yeah, I learned a lot because Robin also had that amazing concept that it would be the first winery that would be completed with a model that would be completely direct to consumer, where we make a high-end product but highly accessible versus scarce. And so it's a we built at the time the model to make sure that we would have high quality grapes, high quality product if I did my job right, you know, accessible for people to come and taste.
And that was something at the time that was quite, quite new and not so so popular in Napa.
Doug
Definitely. That was way ahead of the curve with going DTC direct to consumer. So. Well, I know Robin, I know Robin very well. I he and I served on the Napa Valley Board of Directors, the Vintner Board of Directors for many years together and one of the nicest guys I've met and also just smart as anything he is and wise his his advice to the board is always spot on and very thoughtful.
So I can imagine working with him with him for him was was a real was a real great experience for you.
Jean
It was. It was I learned a lot. He's he's extremely smart and you're so lucky. He also trusted me. He put he put trust like I was from the beginning. He said, you're in charge of the product.
I'm not. It's not my job. You're in charge of the product. And so it really gave me an amazing way, you know, to grow and to try and to experiment, to define. And and he trusted me all through that process, which is which is pretty amazing. And I was very, very fortunate. And I always say that it is like giving a full spectrum of color to a painter.
You're given everything to paint the masterpiece, then it's up to you. If you fail, you're gone, obviously. But if you do it the right way, you know the sky is the limit.
Doug
And he had more than just the Alpha Omega winery, right? Weren't there other properties that he was involved with and you were involved. Yeah. Is that.
Jean
Yes, you're correct. So so originally Robin was from down south and he had a, a winery and a custom crush facility called Tolosa down in San Luis Obispo. And so after Alpha Omega installed and it was installed and, and was on good rails and business sustainability, he actually brought in the portfolio with Tolosa which where he was from, and they produce mainly Pinot and Chard.
And then Perinet, Perinet was obviously in Priorat Spain. And the reason for for Perinet is actually my sister because my sister is is lives in Barcelona. We used to live in Barcelona Spain and so she heard about this winery and I brought Robin into it, you know and we visited Perinet and, and we decided to acquire the, the winery and, and I was, you know, making or helping, making the wines for all three wineries at the same time. And that was, that was also an amazing experience.
Doug
So you're Spain, you're Edna Valley, you're Napa Valley. How were you doing this? You know what I mean. Yeah, but you played like Superman with a cape fly all over the world.
Jean
Well, yeah, you know, you know that. That we have to be fairly versatile and be able to move quite a bit. And because I've been, you know, traveling, you know, since Newton to, to Italy, you know, for consulting as well. You actually I reached luckily a point where I don't have jetlag so so so I can literally sleep at any given point. And that helps a lot because that means that you can do these trips and have very little, if no impact on your ability to perform.
And the way I love it. And when people ask, you know, why did you consult? Why did you decide to do that? My answer is fairly simple. As we are winemakers. And so we we actually follow a vegetatative cycle. It's not like writing an essay in your trash, you know, the paper and you can start all over.
It's one per year. If you go to the southern hemisphere as well, it's two per year. But but as a winemaker, you have to learn very precisely every single time. And so when you are exposed to more equations, you learn exponentially faster. And so by having Tolosa, Perinet, and Alpha Omega and all these different varietals, these different terroir, it really allowed me to to learn faster and take some things from regions, to apply them to other regions.
And ultimately I think to be a better winemaker faster.
Doug
Definitely a better winemaker. Just the experience you've had from all these different, you know, regions and wines you've made, you know, just makes you and also really makes you ready for anything that when harvest comes and Mother Nature does her thing.
Okay. All right, All right. Now, new subject. I want to hear about Michel Roland, because I know you have a great relationship with him. I want to hear how did you guys meet and tell? And also tell us about Michel Roland and what he does. Some people know about him. Some people have heard the name, don't really know what he's all about. He's a he's a pretty important guy.
Jean
Yeah. I always say he's probably the most important winemaker in the world. Michel Roland was born and raised in Bordeaux and and started making wine early on with the family.
And then opened a lab and started consulting. And today he's probably the guy that consults in the most wineries and countries, you know, around the globe. And the way we encountered is he was consulting for Newton, which was his second client after Simi, you know, early, early eighties. And so when I came in 2001, actually in August and listen to that, Doug, how stupid was I?
So I arrived two weeks earlier. Michel also comes to blend the wines. And the first question I asked Michel all the way before Mondavino is, Don't you think you and Parker are homogenizing the wine of the world and he and I need to. We actually talked for a good hour and a half about that, you know, and, and and he convinced me that he doesn't have the power really to raise terroir.
And then because I'm who I am, I doubted him and I actually organized a blind tasting at home with some of the Michel on wine some of not some highly rated, some not, and tried to find a pattern with a with a tasting panel of ten people, industry sommeliers, collectors and the bar and nobody could. So, you know, I kind of I kind of understood that that he was telling me the truth.
And and since then, we not only worked at Newton together, but then, you know, I took him with with with us at Alpha Omega and and, and I took him with me at that in Tuscany as well, where I work with him. And so we grew now our friendship for, you know, for roughly 20 some years where where it's it's not only about wine it's about a humans and and becoming, you know, a great friend.
And so yeah I'm very fortunate to have been, you know, mentored in a way by, by Michel, but also I'm really happy that today every time we sit together, like for a premiere, we did a lot with Aaron Pott and Michel Roland and I call these type of projects legacy projects, but it's just laughter. We sit, we blend for an hour and all we do is laugh.
And so when you can bring that much happiness into your life, into your work, it usually translates in pretty good results.
Doug
That's great. And did you do a project with him or is that still ongoing?
Jean
Yes, it's called –
Doug
Tell us about that one.
Jean
It's again, we went to Morimoto for dinner and just the two of us, you know, in 20, 2009 or something like that.
And I looked at him and I said, Well, you know, I would I would really want to make a wine with you. And you looked at he says, Don't we already make enough? And I said, No, no, your wine together. Like like a wine that I can enjoy when you're not with me or later in life and remember you and remember our relationship.
And so he said, okay, let's do it. And so we started, Michel Rolland Napa Valley, his daughter actually designed the label. And, you know, it's a brand that now is 750, 800 cases and and that has been existing for for quite a long time, ten years. And we enjoyed just sitting together and criticizing because I don't think as a winemaker, you know, you grow a lot from praise I am much more value Michel for for his criticism and I always called him the doubter because so many times I've been exposed to people that says, the wine is great or the wine is great.
And Doug, you have made so many great wines, you know how you know it is when consistently you’re at high quality people expect independently of the year that you just deliver. But but you always grow so much more when people see what can be done to increase quality. And so with Michel, it's always that. It's always not how good the product is, is what can we do better? And I really, really value that.
Doug
All that's true. That's how you make better wine. You got to be your your toughest critic at all times. Well, thanks for that, because that's it's good to hear about Michel and have people hear about what he's all about because you guys have a great relationship. But another curiosity I have is about AXR, this new winery brand that's start up a new winery that you're involved with.
Tell us about that. How did that start up? Who you working with and what's that all about?
Jean
Well, you know, as I said, as I said previously, you never know where you're going to cross paths with people again. So AXR was started by a partner in Alpha Omega, and a guy that was working in the tasting room at Alpha Omega, and a third guy and me, they came to me one day, you know, the partner at Alpha Omega, he says I want to start a new brand.
And I looked at him, says, I'll do it, but not with you alone because you're too busy, you're too crazy. And we need people to stabilize the equation. And so we decided to bring, you know, on board Mark and Don. And so we started a brand in 2013. And then seven years ago, we actually purchased a winery, a property next to next to Brasswood, the old St. Helena outlets, you know, a ten-acre property with with a very old winery and permits and, you know, and a few acres of cab and grew the brand from there. And it's really cool because I call it my feel -good project because every time that I, I walk on property my blood pressure drops by about 50 points because it's all about kindness, respect of opinions.
We have meetings where we disagree and we argue, but we all respect highly one another. And so that makes that the entire vibe of the business is made in a playful way. And so it's a it's a brand that has, as you know, encountered a fairly fast success in growth overall because of it, because it's a little bit different than the other wineries.
Right. In the and the nineties 2000 2010, the tasting rooms were populated by people coming at a bar and asking for a glass of wine. When we started AXR, we decided to reverse that model and let the consumers dictate the experience. So we, we actually do tastings that all tasting lasts for an hour and a half.
And so we really, really want almost a different experience. And, and I think that that the response is fairly good with that.
Doug
It's good. It's good. But, you know, you've been asked this before. I've got to ask it here, because I guess part of the deal when you bought that old winery, where AXR is now, you guys had to sign a quote, spiritual entity clause quote. Now what's that mean?
Jean
That means that there were so many sightings, so many surpernatural events, unexplainable events that they have they had to disclose in the selling document that it was happening. And so what we found out is we actually found glasses moving across a table on a flat surface, you know, with no liquid under all by themselves.
The latest one, Doug, was was four days ago when the last person to leave the winery started hearing voices and went, you know, on the part of the winery and saw nobody turn all the lights off, you know, and started hearing music, came back and very strange Polish music that is doesn't is a none of the playlist or anything and you could argue that maybe it's a you know it's a an electronical bug you know on our Sono system or something like that.
But she actually unplugged the device and the music was still playing. And so. Yes. So you believe it or not, you know, how many times do the people close all the doors and they come back the next morning and all the doors are open. How many times did people feel their shoulder tap? Two times. They turn around. There's nothing.
We even have a picture of a tasting under the previous owner where you see the silhouette of somebody standing behind them. I mean, it's it's it's clear and we used to, we have two little cottages on property because it used to be a hotel. It used to be St Helena's, you know, favorite restaurant. It has been a brothel. It's been a lot of different things over there over the years since it since 1850, roughly. And so one of the one of the cottages was rented long term to a to a family and the kids of the family had the regular visits of what they called the old lady that would they said, you know, the lady sits at the top at the top of our bed there. And she she stares at us and and the night and and that happens fairly often. And so, yeah, that's, that's I guess that's why it had to be, you know, in the document.
Doug
Okay, well, I want to come to this wine there but I'm going to do during the daytime, is that cool? All right. Okay. Well that's fantastic. And so you've got there's something I came across is called the Unfiltered Collection. What's that?
Jean
Wow. Look, when you when you are involved with smaller brands and you know that because your family created that brand from scratch, you have very little leverage on the wholesale market. And so when I had a bunch of clients that make 500 cases here and 700 cases, a thousand cases, etc., and they want to be also represented in sold in the wholesale side of things, I thought that I would create a sales arm of the consulting where all these brands could be in a portfolio and we would have more leverage when we would go see you know, the big distributors and the big players, because you have not only more cases, but you always have one brand that is very the hot brand and popular and you get can help all the other brands because of it.
So about, you know, six, seven, ten years ago I created the Unfiltered Collection, which is just a portfolio of the brands that I, some of the brands that I that I work with that have an interest in being represented and sold through the Unfiltered Collection on the wholesale market.
Doug
Wow. That's a good idea because yeah, there's a lot of smoke. Yeah, you're working with a lot of small producers.
Jean
Yeah.
Doug
And when you're have a small production, four or 500 cases and you want go out to a distributor in another state, the distributor usually isn't that interested because they need they need more, more cases or more diversity.
So you put that together with the Unfiltered Collection. Good idea. I like it. You're, you know, from my count, you're involved over 25 brands between Napa, Paso Robles, Texas, Italy, Spain, on and on and on. I mean, can I, how do you do it?
Jean
I work hard, but as I like to say, I somebody asked me is really cool question during a winemaker dinner in Sacramento a few months ago it's just how are you not tired of seeing the same thing over and over again.
And I looked at them, I looked at them and I said, You get tired when it's marketing, not when it's belief. And so for me, you know, when you wake up to go play every day, it doesn't get tiring. It's actually fun leaving on Wednesday for ten days in Europe and then ten days I'm doing Spain, France, Switzerland and Italy and and I'm super excited because I'm I'm there to taste wines, to blend wines to be exposed to to problems that ultimately will make me grow anyways. So it's I'm like a kid in a candy store. I'm still extremely excited about every single wine that I make.
Doug
That's great. That's going to love to hear it. And I was going to ask you, what do you do for fun when you're not making wine or working? But I don't I don't think you do anything for fun because you're fun Is your work. What did I ask you to answer the question? I probably answered it.
Jean
Yeah. You kind of did. But for two major things. You know, I'm a huge family guy, so I have, I have three boys that I love dearly. And and I read a stat that really kind of almost traumatized me in a way, is parents spend 72% of their entire life, their entire time with their kids before the kids age is 12.
So I think it's really important to grasp every moment that you can with family. So outside of family, it's tennis. I play a lot of tennis, you know, with a lot of different people because it's also my pressure valve. It's that how I let the steam out. And so family and tennis is really what I do the most.
Doug
Good, good. Anything new coming up. And you know, I'm sure there is anything. Do you okay?
Jean
Sure. Yeah, for sure. I was I started a bakery, you know, for example, and we're already at three location, one in Santa Rosa, one at the Barlow and opening Petaluma soon and Healdsburg beginning of next year called Sarmentine. And that was amazing because I'm not the baker you know in the company org chart and they're for biz dev and strategy decisions but it was really just a baker and her husband that needed capital to have a commercial kitchen when they were already selling their bread to the big names in Napa and just needed help.
And and again, it's, curiosity is for me it's something that is really important. I really enjoy learning. And so that new industry through that new in that new field, I just learn and I love it.
Doug
So Jean, I missed that name. What was the name of the bakery again?
Jean
It's it's called Sarmentine, S A R M E N T I N E. It's actually a baguette with two heads at the end. And that's a type of French baguette.
Doug
Cool. I got to go chase that down and before we part company here, if people are curious, more curious about your story, your wines, who you consult with, is there like a website or somewhere they can go to to get more info?
Jean
Yeah, it would be JH my initial JH wine consulting dot com.
Doug
JH Wine consulting dot com. Bread and wine, baby. That's all we need. Jean, thanks so much for taking the time because you are a busy guy and really appreciate hearing your story and getting, you know, not just for everyone on the taste here but for myself. So I look forward to running into you again soon and I'll buy you a glass of wine. How's that sound?
Jean
I think last time you actually bought. So next time I see you.
Doug
Yeah, you're.
Jean
It is my turn to buy.
Doug
But you're right. Yes. It'll be an expensive Bordeaux or Burgundy. We'll do that. Yeah. All right, man. Thanks so much. You take care. Safe travels.
Jean
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.
Doug
All right, See you. Bye bye. Bye.
Full Transcript
Doug
Hey, everybody. Welcome back. Doug Shafer with another episode of The Taste. Today, we've got a special guest, a long-time industry and personal friend. We've served many too many years together on the Napa Valley Vintners Board of Directors. She's CEO of St. Supery Winery in Rutherford. Welcome, Emma Swain.
Emma
Why, thank you Doug Shafer. It's nice to be here with you.
Doug
It's good to be here. And not at all in a board meeting, I must say. And I was thinking about you last night, and I'm trying to remember when we first met and I couldn't come up with something. Maybe you can, but I did have a revelation this morning.
I remember we used to run into each other at the San Francisco International terminal waiting for the same plane to somewhere in Europe. I think you'd be going to see your owners of St. Supery based in France. And I'd be heading off somewhere to sell wine in London or Munich or something like that. You remember those times? I think that's when we
Emma
I remember those times. I remember distinctly leaving Paris and running and having just gotten onto the flight thinking I'm the last person on the flight. And sure enough, there you and Annette come flying in behind me. So I wasn't the last person.
Doug
That was that was you know, we've all have our worst trip memories. That's in my top five. We were literally running through that airport and got hung up and had issues getting through customs. And by the time we got on the plane, I was soaked in sweat. Now, I always carry an extra T-shirt in my briefcase because it was the most uncomfortable trip.
But yeah, I do remember you were very relaxed and looking at us in time. We were just in a panic. Anyway, so let's go all the way back. I read that your parents came here from the UK. Is that right?
Emma
Yeah, my, my parents are both British and they met when my mother was a model and my dad was a coal miner and going to college for his electrical engineering degree. And they met. They met, they fell in love. My father graduated from college and they moved to the US where he went into the semiconductor industry in the Boston area. After they'd had my three brothers and then they moved to America and then they had me.
Doug
That's pretty wild. And, you know, they're both from Britain and they pick up and move to Boston. I mean, that's crazy. Pretty gutsy. Yeah?
Emma
Pretty gutsy. Lots of opportunity. You know, my mom was helping support my dad through that last bit of college modeling. And she used to do the news on BBC and it was just the grand adventure. There were more jobs and opportunities available in America, kind of like today and being able to immigrate to a land where, you know, there is so much potential, particularly in the technology industry, as an electrical engineer. I mean, my dad's a really smart guy and he did very well in his business and we moved around a lot from there. We ended up moving back to the UK for a little while when I was small and then back to the US. But and then all around the U.S.
Doug
So born in but born Massachusetts, Boston, and then you moved back to the UK and then back to the US and I mean how often did you guys move while you were in school and grade school, in high school?
Emma
I did count at one point that I had gone to more schools than grades by the time I graduated from high school. So I got to meet a lot of different people and became a little bit more adaptable. But maybe that's where I became a change junkie. I mean, I always like change.
I like moving. And so it's funny to then be in an industry where now everything you have to be there for 20 years to see the fruits of your labor.
Doug
Right, but God, you know, I'm thinking about, you know, I moved one time junior in high school, Chicago to Napa, you know, and that was it wasn't traumatic, but it was big. But I'm thinking, you know, every year or two, you're switching schools, you know, as you're growing up there, had it had to be rough. Was it rough or do you just went with it?
Emma
Yeah. There were there were a couple that were particularly challenging. And then I went to three different fifth grades and that was, you know, that's that's a challenging, awkward time as a kid.
And then also I also moved in the middle of my junior year in high school when we moved from Florida to California. And that was that was a challenge.
Doug
So in high school you're bouncing around. What did you get into? Anything. Activity, sports, extracurricular.
Emma
I ran I played tennis from sort of fourth grade through through my move in junior high. So I, I played tennis. I played varsity tennis and surf club and and volleyball through high school. So.
Doug
But you said, I think, I know you a little bit, you've always been kind of a numbers science person. Was that kind of your big interest.
Emma
That was my big interest. I, I had, I have surgery in fifth grade and I just thought the doctors were so amazing, the anesthesiologist who took care of me and I thought, I want to be a doctor. And I was just fascinated by the science. And so I got involved and started being a candy striper at the local hospital and, you know, running around reading Discover magazine, reading all the science and tech things that I could get. And I started taking college level math classes at night just to keep myself busy.
Doug
Listen, boy, you you haven't changed a bit, have you? I wonder where it's came from. Okay, So. So end up. So where was college? Where did you end up going?
Emma
So I ended up going to UC Davis, which was kind of a surprise. I, I thought maybe I would go to Santa Clara. My parents were living in Saratoga, so I applied at Santa Clara and University of Tampa and Davis. And when I you know, the numbers came out, University of Tampa offered me a volleyball scholarship and but it was quite expensive as a private university. And Santa Clara was very close to my parents’ house.
And and UC Davis was about $440 a quarter at that point in time. And my dad said, you know, where do you want to go? I said, I want to go to Tampa. I wanted to go back to Florida. And he said, Well, Emma here's how it goes. If you go to Tampa, I'm not giving you any money. If you go to UC Davis, I'll pay your rent. And if you go to Santa Clara and live at home, we'll cover everything. And I said, gee dad, I'm going to Davis.
Doug
Come on, didn't you? I live at home. Come on.
Emma
No.
Doug
Davis, I remember that it was the quarter system because I went there too, and I think. What was that? I think you were there after me. I'm sure you were. Yeah. Every quarter I'd have to take my check for like, $380 to the to the main office to pay the quarterly tuition. Can you believe that. How much that cost.
Emma
It was it was such a deal. Yeah. For a great education. Amazing.
Doug
So did you ever, well high school you weren't supposed to drink, but, you know, the whole wine thing. We'll just go past that. But how about, you know, was wine part of it? Was wine, part of the home scene with your family or was that something later for you?
Emma
Yeah, you know, my parents drank, you know, a little bit in Florida, but then when they moved to California, their friends really got them into wine. And so when I was going to Davis and I would go home, my dad was drinking, you know, Chateau Montelena from the seventies, Jordan from the seventies and and really delicious wines. And I'm like, wow, this stuff's great. And so those are some of the wines that I, you know, remember first trying and loving.
Doug
Nice, nice, good. So you've got that background. So you're at Davis any, anybody you remembered there at the time you were there who were still in the you know, in the wine business, you still deal with them.
Emma
Yeah well you know, I met my husband at Davis, but he's not in the wine business. But I did have I did have a few friends who I met, Oded Shakked with Longboard Vineyards over in Sonoma. He started the the wine program at J.
Doug
Right.
Emma
He was there making sparkling wine for a long time. And Eric Olson, he is now over at Bontera. And we all used to pal around and I remember Eric Olson making this white Riesling that he had in the refrigerator for a school project. And we were very unimpressed. And then some years later, I'm flipping through Wine and Spirits Magazine and he is being written up for how great his white Riesling is. And I thought, Wow, we've all come a long way.
Doug
Yeah, yeah. I think about some of my early wines. I don't think about them often, wouldn't go there. Now anyway. All right, so you're Davis. So you get out of Davis degree and what was your degree in?
Emma
So I did Ag and Managerial Economics and then I was doing a minor in Biology because I just I loved all the, the science. It was so fun. I loved biochemistry and microbiology. It was just it's great.
Doug
Really, you like that stuff?
Emma
I did. I did. I told you I was a nerd.
Doug
Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing you and I get along so well. I just don't. You know, it wasn't biochem. No, this was nonstarter.
Emma
It’s one of my favorite classes.
Doug
Oh man. Okay. All right. You can have that one. All right, so you're getting out of Davis. What's. What's the play? What? Where do you go, what's your first job?
Emma
So the play was I didn't want to be poor any more. Being poor was kind of a bummer. And I was working multiple jobs while I was in college. I was selling kitchen cabinetry, I was working in a lab. I worked for Campbell's Soup, I sold women's clothing, I ran a retail store. And so I decided I was listening to all these recruiters on campus and they were telling me I could go and be a consultant. And I thought, Well, I'm going to be a consultant, man that rocks and and it pays really well.
Emma
So I get this job to work for Arthur Andersen at the time, and they sent us to six weeks of school at USF to become CPAs. And I had no idea what a CPA was. I was going to go be a consultant. And so they're telling me the first day that I've got to take this three day exam and, you know, all of these things that I have to do to become a CPA, I'm like, Wait, what did I sign up for?
Doug
Wow. That sounds pretty intense. Okay, so how you do?
Emma
Yeah, I knew nothing. Yeah, but I did when I got my CPA. I still have my CPA license, but, you know, it was kind of funny because I really had no clue what I was doing. I just didn't want to be poor anymore.
Doug
So with that. So we're -- well, good. So with that, working with Andersen, are you are you working with like one or two companies are like lots of different companies, different areas, different venues.
Emma
So I worked on the tax side and, and then they started a new office that was a test office for the United States called the Enterprise Group. And we worked with small emerging family businesses and technology businesses. And companies getting ready to go public. And so that was kind of the best thing about being in public accounting is I worked with a lot of different industries, a lot of different technologies, different people, and there were always new clients and things to learn. So that was fun. The diversity I really liked in the workplace and working with the smaller businesses. We did a lot of financial planning and prepping companies to go public.
Doug
Interesting to hear that because as we get into the rest of your story, you've been involved in some big deals through your career, so it's kind of like, you had a wonderful background for it. So what I'm starting to read here, I also now realize that these board meetings, when we start and we go over the financials and everybody's kind of like, yeah, looks good, looks good, looks good.
And Emma raises her hand and goes, What about line 32A here and we all go, huh? But she goes, That number doesn't add up to that number. And I don't understand. It's like, So now I know where that comes from.
Emma
Now you know where that comes from. I try not to be a pain like that and ask my questions before the meeting.
Doug
No, no, it's actually really good. We need. We. We need you there. Trust me. All right, So you're kicking around with these guys. So what happens Somehow you get into the wine business. How did that what's the story there?
Emma
So I. I was interviewing for a job and I'd been offered a job with Bain Capital.
Emma
And one of the partners I was working for came in and I hade referred somebody to him for one of his clients and that it worked out. And he said, Hey, Emma, do you know anybody who has go work in the wine business? I said, Well, me, I want to go work in the wine business. And he's like, Well, I can't take you because you're on this and this.
I said, Look, I have another job offer right now. If, if you have a wine industry job, that's me. Because I really wanted to move to Napa Valley and my husband and I had come up here when we were dating. We were still dating at that point in time. And I'm like, I want to move to Napa Valley and this is how I'm going to do it.
And he said, okay, well, I'll present you to my client. And so he did. And his client was Eleanor Coppola. And I went to go and work with the Coppola family at Niebaum-Coppola at the time, as well as the Staglin Family, because at that point in time, I was still working for Arthur Andersen. For the first year and a half, I was in the wine business, and so I worked as a consultant like 28 days a month for Niebaum-Coppola and one or two helping out the Staglins.
Doug
Wow. And so this was what time period where we're talking about early, early nineties, I think?
Emma
Early nineties.
Doug
Okay. Yeah. Okay. So all right, can you help me out here? Because I've been here a long time and I still don't really understand the whole history with Niebaum-Coppola, Francis Ford Coppola and his wife Eleanor, who you were working with and Inglenook, the connection, and who bought what and who sold what.
And you know, I've been at dinner with you and Skupny and a couple of other people hearing parts of the story, but can you walk me through the timeline because I'm sitting there last night looking at this and I still don't really understand, you know, Inglenook, which was here forever. And Coppola came in and bought what?
Emma
So the Coppola's in the, in the mid-seventies bought the back portion of the Inglenook property. It was 1560 acres with the historic mansion, spectacular property. And as Eleanor would say, we bought it for the price of a nice home in Beverly Hills at the time. And they bought it to be up here out of the fog of San Francisco.
And Sophia went to high school here. At St. Helena High School and they made it their home. And then, of course, they fell in love with wine. Andre Tchelistcheff helped make the first couple of vintages of wine there and Francis became really interested in reuniting the property with the front 73 acres where the historic chateau was.
There was a huge, ugly barrel building in front of that, and he really wanted to reunite the property and had not been successful. And at the time I was working for John Skupny and John was the general manager of the property and Scott MacLeod was the winemaker and Tony Soter was the consulting winemaker.
Doug
And I’m gonna interrupt. They were working for Niebaum-Coppola or for Inglenook.
Emma
Niebaum-Coppola. Inglenook was owned Inglenook was owned by Hueblin at the time. They owned the brand and the property.
Doug
Got it. And so Inglenook owned that. The front part, the 73 acres, right?
Emma
Yeah.
Doug
Okay.
Emma
And the chateau.
Doug
Got it. And Niebaum-Coppola, Francis’ property was next to it, but behind it. Got it. Okay.
Emma
Yes.
Doug
All right. Thanks. So keep going.
Emma
So there were rumors that Heublien was going to sell it. They'd sold some of the other properties and the brand Inglenook. And so we, Niebaum Coppola, approached them. John Skupny got a check from Francis and Eleanor wrote $1-million check and handed it to John and Ellie kissed the check and went over and and made an offer to them.
Doug
Wow.
Emma
And, you know, as it is a good faith, it wasn't $1,000,000 for the property, trust me. But but it got the conversation going and and started that conversation and then we negotiated for about oh gosh, it feels like it was like a year and a half. It went on forever, negotiating with them and ultimately purchasing the property and then starting the restoration and rejuvenation of that property and the construction almost immediately upon purchasing it.
So it was it was really exciting. It was a lot of hard work. And it was Kal Finch who worked for Francis on the movie side and John Skupny and myself working on those negotiations in addition to our attorneys.
Doug
So Francis got, put everything, you know, was able to purchase that front piece and the chateau and put it all back together. And then now what happened with the name? So it was no longer, did he keep Niebaum-Coppola going or because didn't it become didn't he turn it back into Inglenook, the whole thing? How'd that work?
Emma
So he he called it, it was still near Niebaum-Coppola, and the wine, the primary wine from the property was called Rubicon, and we purchased with that also the Gustav Neibaum label, which became Francis Coppola Presents and produced, you know, some additional wines from that property.
But part of the deal is we had a lot of side deals on this property to make everything work, you know, leasing parts of the vineyard, leasing parts of the barrel building. And Francis had this vision of just removing that barrel building that blocked the view of the chateau from Highway 29 and restoring it to its former glory.
He had this vision of reuniting the brand name Inglenook with the property. And we were, you know, over time he's been able to do that. Eventually the the lease on the barrel building went away and he was able to remove that building. And you can see the beautiful chateau from the highway today and most recently, in the last I guess few years, he was able to purchase the brand name Inglenook back.
Doug
Okay.
Emma
And reunite it with the property. So piece by piece, that winery, I believe, was originally bonded. Winery number nine, that number nine is still with Napa Wine Company. So maybe he'll get that bond number back one day, too. But he's been very diligent about following up on all those pieces. And over time, he has restored it. It's really quite remarkable. Every time I'm on the property, it's more and more beautiful than than it was before.
Doug
Oh it is gorgeous. And, you know, locally, you know, I've lived here a long time and other people have lived there longer. And that that you mention that pretty hideous barrel building that blocked the view of the chateau. And when he tore that down, I mean, this whole valley was just ecstatic.
And then you remember. I'm sure you do. He had the grand opening party, you know, to celebrate.
Emma
Oh yes.
Doug
We celebrate the removal of that warehouse. And he basically invited the entire Napa Valley. No charge.
Emma
Yep.
Doug
There were thousands of people there. And, you know, he had a bunch of Hollywood folks. I think Father Guido Sarducci was there and gave a little speech.
Emma
Yeah.
Doug
I'm dating myself. You young folks don't know who Father Guido Sarducci is, but you can look him up. But he but he was he was so great for the valley to do what he did and to continue that on, which is pretty cool. And I had one curious question I was since the whole movie connection, did you guys have any celebrity stories of people popping in famous actors and actresses or anything like that?
Emma
Okay, so this is a little embarrassing, but I never recognize anyone. So, you know, my husband would laugh at me quite regularly because I would have lunch with people who I who were in the movie business. And I would come home and I'd say, you know, I had a really nice lunch today with this Oliver Stone guy, and he's great.
And my husband's like, You have no idea who that is do you? I'm like, No, but he was nice and his girlfriend was really nice, too.
Doug
That's really funny.
Emma
You know, that was me all the time. And occasionally, like Robin Williams, you know, I you know, obviously I recognized him, but, you know, I was I was pretty hopeless. But I met a lot of nice people who were very down to earth and very creative and talented. The old movie editing studio was above the winery and so we'd have everybody going back and forth, editing and and one day they'd be rolling the barrels on the wooden floors to create the sound of thunder, because they needed that for The Secret Garden or something fun like that.
Doug
That's kind of cool. I love it. Well, what an experience. So you were there. I think you were only there till about 96, four or five years. Is that right? And then
Emma
Yeah, in May of 96.
Doug
What happened next? Where'd you go?
Emma
So I got recruited to go over and work with the Sebastiani family. And I thought, you know, here's this winery. It's it's been around for a long time and I've got this nice opportunity. I'm going to progress in my career. And so I took the job there and I had no idea what a creative and entrepreneurial bunch of people that I would work with at the time at a winery that's been around for 95 years.
And I learned so much and worked with so many great people. But at the time we were a little over 8 million cases. We were the third or fourth largest winery in the U.S. and so I started on some great projects. We did a big system implementation project with SAP. We were very focused on, you know, creating great wine and multiple, you know, good price points.
And as Don Sebastiani used to like to tell me that we were a consumer products company, not not a winery, which was sort of surprising to me during that era. But we were, you know, we had we had to be thoughtful about, you know, price points and shelving and and keeping you know, the product in the front line.
And we launched Nathanson Creek with a, you know, ad on during the Super Bowl and did a lot of fun and creative stuff from a quality perspective, building the wineries. We built a winery called the Nathanson Creek Winery in Woodbridge, Lodi area, and it was the first winery to have a multi-pond system for cleaning all of the wastewater and having it clean enough that we could put it back in the river and just did some great sustainable projects and innovative projects. And it was a lot of fun working with everyone there. And then we sold it, but we had a
Doug
But wait a minute. So before you sell it, you know, you said it in passing. I've got to come back to this 8 million cases. That's a big wine. That's a lot of grapes, a lot of wine. And so. And you took the job there. What what was your role? Were you accountant? CFO?
Emma
I, I yeah, I was controller. And then it quickly became and then became the, the CFO about a year later. And then, and then we sold the winery and I became the chief operating officer. I guess I was around 30 or something then.
Doug
Jesus, all right, so wait, they sold the whole thing? What did they sell? They sold to Constellation, right?
Emma
They sold to Constellation, all of the brands.
Doug
Okay.
Emma
Except for the Sebastiani brand name and all of the property outside of Sonoma County. So we sold the Nathanson Creek Winery, the Vendage Winery, the sales force. We had several 450, 480 salespeople and those divisions and everything else that was in Sonoma County stayed with the family. The historic winery, the we, I don't know, 600, 700 acres of vineyard and the Sebastiani brand.
Doug
And so you see and so you stay with the Sebastiani family with the smaller brands. Sebastiani, right?
Emma
Right. So Don Sebastiani and and his sons left to start Don continue with Don and Sons. Their venture and his sister Marianne Sebastiani Cuneo and Richard Cuneo, who was the president through Don's era. And Marianne became CEO and I became the COO and we went from 8 million cases to about 70,000. And we had a lot of bulk wine and a lot of grape contracts and vineyard in Sonoma for about 400,000 cases and 9/11 hit and there was a huge, huge harvest. So suddenly we had a lot of excess inventory and not a not a big brand to sell.
And we set a course that we were going to make the very best Sonoma County wines and we were going to be the primary family from Sonoma County making fantastic Sonoma County wines with 100 year history. And we did that. We made great wine, we sold off a lot of bulk wine and it used to be Richard Cuneo would come in my office every day and he'd say, So do you think maybe we should just start another brand? Like, nope, we're going to stay, we're going to stay focused.
And then it became, you know, maybe once a week and then it became once a month. And and then, you know, after I don't know, about a year and a half, two years, he came into my office. He said, you know, Emma I think you've turned this Chevy into a Cadillac.
Doug
There you go. Yeah, you know, this I love doing this podcast because I think I've known you for how many years, and I don't know all this stuff about you. This is so fun to find out. But we need to talk about brand and how important brand is, and you get it. I mean, you stayed focused, you didn't dilute it, you didn't go crazy and start coming up with new names. You stuck to your guns and just made it, like you said, made a Cadillac. Bingo branding, you know?
Emma
Yeah, Well, and I, I think I get that from when I very first started. I remember sitting next to Al Brounstein at my very first industry event and, you know, this geeky kid and it just like, wow, Al Brounstein, he's amazing. And he's telling me,
Doug
Hang on, Al Brounstein of Diamond Creek, like the first cult winery in Napa Valley. Wonderful man. Go ahead, keep going.
Emma
And he says to me, you know, Emma, you've got to you've got to be an estate. You've got to, you know, focus on controlling everything from the vineyard through the product and, you know, making the very best wine and, you know, that was resonated with me. I'm like, okay, so we're you know, we're in the wine business, not the consumer product industry anymore.
And back in the wine business, and we're making the very best wine we can. And we're being you know, it's Sebastiani. It wasn't all estate, but it was all Sonoma County, all the best quality wines we could make. And most, you know, much from our own vineyards, from the winemakers vineyard and from growers we'd worked with for very long time, like the Duttons and over on the Sonoma coast.
And I think that focus is very important for leading your team forward. Everybody knows what the goal is. We're going to make the very best of this wine and and doing that every day in, day out. You think, I have to make a decision here. Does it make the very best wine? Does it stick with our mission, then? Yes, keep going. And if it doesn't, then it's a distraction.
Doug
Bingo, bingo, bingo, bingo. I know this is about you, but I've got to jump in here. You mentioned you mentioned, like I always do. You mentioned Al Brounstein, and I haven't thought about him in years. And when you said his name, I flashed on the early days at Shafer, and I remembered I'd be, you know, in the cellar trying to, you know, get wine in the bottle without blowing up and things like that with Elias.
And I'd run into Dad. He says, I just had another meeting with Al. My father adored Al Brounstein, and I think Al Brounstein gave my dad the same advice he gave you, because from the very get go, it's all about brand. And stay focused. Stay focused. So just you just brought back a really sweet memory. So thank you, my friend.
Emma
No. You know, and and, you know, I feel the same way about your dad, too. He was another great inspiration to me.
Doug
Well, good. Apparently, you guys had conversations that I didn't know about. That's good to know. He. All right, so you're rocking it in Sonoma, and then somehow you end up back in Napa. What happened there?
Emma
Well, I we were moving along and 2008, it was kind of before the crash of everything. And Sam Sebastiani decided that he wanted to have his share of the money out of the the winery. And Sam, Don Sebastiani, and Marianne Sebastiani all owned a portion of Sebastiani Vineyards and had a buy sell agreement. And so Marianne said, Don let's buy Sam out. And Don said, No, I think I want to get out too. And it was super disappointing for for myself and Mark Sebastiani Cuneo, who I worked with, because we were really on a roll. We'd grown the winery from 70,000 cases to 330,000 cases. We had very high scoring wines that were being recognized and on the cover of some of the nice publications and we were kind of on fire.
And so but, you know, the, the message was we needed to sell. And so we very quietly did that and we were going through that process. And in the middle of that, the economy crashed and we had some offers for the winery. And, you know, Marc and I, Marianne, you know, we could we could we could buy the winery ourselves and still selling it to this other person.
You know, we could all, you know, put things together and make this happen. And and Marianne said, you know, I'd rather not have my brothers upset because we end up owning the winery and be able to have Christmas and Thanksgiving and Easter all together. And and so she put aside that family heritage for family harmony and, you know, for the future that's the right decision to make. But at the time, it was very disappointed us who'd worked so hard to to rebuild the brand. But anyway, we sold it at December 31st, 2008, and we closed. And I had my third interview with St. Supery that day, and about six weeks later I was over here.
Doug
Wow. Wow. Look at the deals you've been involved with. Just amazing to me. Who helped me, who bought this the best, you know that one.
Emma
Bill Foley bought the the winery.
Doug
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right. So now you end up back in Napa at St. Supery What? And you're working for the Skalli family in France, right?
Emma
Yeah. So I had a little overlap of a couple months with Michaela [Rodeno], who was the first CEO here. And so we had a nice, planned transition for her retirement and started working for the Skallis’ about two weeks in the the winemaker resigned. Nothing to do with me, but he's a really nice guy and he had a great opportunity. And so, you know, you prioritize what you have going on and you know, the banking crisis is happening.
We have a lot of inventory, I’m walking around and, you know, looking at wine quality, learning about the vineyards and learning about what's in inventory and what's great and what's not so great, and end up interviewing a lot of fantastic winemakers and spending a lot of time with their VP of Viticulture and and learning about the vineyards at St. Supery.
And during that time we we determined we had moved to an estate model with the exception of one wine, the Muscat Canneli. And because we were still purchasing some some Muscat and we realized just what a great property we have and what a great cellar, but things that we needed to invest in as well and I think that that was quite a benefit to me actually having the old winemaker leave during that time, because I delve into the quality, the facility, the vineyards very quickly and in more detail than I probably would have for four or five months if if I didn't have to focus on that first.
And and I communicated a lot with the Skalli family who were all over in France and I wanted to make sure that they were engaged and knew what I was doing because, well, it's me. And so there's going to be change.
Doug
Right.
Emma
And and it's not going to be maybe so gentle and so, and so, you know, I would let them know we were doing this or that. And I'd also say, and by the way, we need to spend some money. And I started laying out what we needed to do to invest in the winery. And so I brought Michael Scholz back as our winemaker that June of 2009, and we immediately started investing in the cellar and and in the vineyards and started a lot of projects.
We did a new small cellar in 2010. We added, We've been replanting and rejuvenating the vineyards, adding a ton of technology and just revitalizing our wine quality and becoming, as Al Brounstein would be happy for us. 100% estate grown, produced and bottled and and very, very focused on on quality and continuous improvement and it was wonderful that the Skallis’ were very supportive of us.
I think kind of one of the funny things with the Skallis’ is, is there also in the pasta business. They were in the wine and pasta business since 1920 in the south of France and in 2012 we started talking about getting an optical sorter and they're like, oh, the optical sorter has been fantastic in the wheat business.
And so they were super supportive because they'd seen the benefit in the wheat business. And, and you, you kind of didn't expect to get that support like right off the bat with the new technology. But we did. And so that was the first year we were able to bring optical sorting on so that everything since then has been sorted down to the grape for all the red wines.
Doug
Real quickly, just because I've never heard that story, how the Skallis’ is end up in Napa Valley, investing.
Emma
So Robert Skalli was in the family wine business in the south of France and the pasta business, and he had met Robert Mondavi and it was in the early seventies and he was obviously a young man and he came to Napa Valley, fell in love with it, saw the future of it, and spent almost ten years looking for a property in Napa Valley.
And that's when he found the property that is our Dollarhide Ranch. And it was a little over, it is a little over 1535 acres. It has seven lakes, seven soil series, 13 variations, rolling hills, just a beautiful, high-elevation vineyard property. And he finally purchased that in 1982 and immediately started developing it. He brought over professors from Montpellier and he started developing a little Sauvignon Blanc out there, Cabernet Sauvignon.
And he would spend, you know, 90 days here and then 90 days back in France, back and forth. And he also simultaneously launched a brand called for Fortant de France, which was the first varietally labeled wines out of the south of France. He helped create Le Pays d’Oc appellation and and grew that brand very dramatically in the US kind of overnight to 600,000, 700,000 cases quite quickly.
And so he was he is an innovative entrepreneurial spirit and in 1985 he purchased the property that the winery is now located on, built the winery, redeveloped the vineyards, restored the old historic house, and while also, you know, managing quite substantial winemaking operations in the south of France.
Doug
Wow. Cool. And then, thanks for that, because I never knew how they ended up here. Interesting. And so they and then back in 2015, it seems like it was just a couple of years ago, but so it's been eight or nine years. They sold to Chanel. And so what what happened on that one?
Emma
Well, you know, I started to realize when people called me and asked me if I'd like to come work for them, that they usually just want me to turn their winery around and then sell it.
Doug
Yeah. And there's there seems to be a recurring theme here.
Emma
There is a recurring theme, so I, so they decided that they'd like to sell the winery in, I guess late 2014. And so, you know, when you're selling a winery is, you know, it's it's a very private process and nobody gets to know because you can't let the word get out.
And it's a huge amount of work. And so we went through the process and we actually worked with two investment banking firms this time and sort of just one and it was, you know, again, a lot of fun meeting a lot of different people, but sort of dividing your brain between driving the winery forward and improving quality and making great wine and making people happy and and selling the winery.
And it was very pleased that the ultimate purchasers of the winery was Chanel. We very much enjoyed meeting with them from the very beginning and their own focus on quality and consistency and following that supply chain all the way through to the wine is super important. You know, all the wineries that Chanel owns are estate grown, produced and bottled, and all of them are sustainably or organically farmed.
And so we have, you know, a very consistent vision of taking care of people, place, and producing the very best quality product that we can.
Doug
Nice, nice. No, I think it's been great. And, you know, it's great that obviously you stayed on. They kept you on because, you know, you run a pretty tight ship. So I'm sure they realized that. Smart.
Emma
Well, I think and I think it was important to them that that before purchasing a winery here that there is a team in place that was the team that they would want to work with. And and all of us, you know, stayed through that transition. So I think that's a testament to when we were doing the right thing and they appreciated that.
Doug
Now it seems like it's been pretty seamless. The transition, which is great. So, you know, Emma, I talked to a lot of vineyard folks and winemakers on this podcast. Obviously, we know what they bring to the final product, you're fairly unique. You're more of a business person, accountant person, strategy, branding, not so much grapes and wine, but what, what do you think a person like you with your skills brings to the final product, the final quality in the bottle?
Emma
I think, you know, one of the things that that I bring to any organization that I've run or been in is I have a distinct view of the big picture. And I also take kind of big leaps in how I think about things in driving change and how everything fits together and jumping several steps ahead to where we can improve.
And hopefully the way I do that enables the team to be their very best without having to worry about things outside of their area, but also being challenged to be their best by me bringing forth new ideas, new technology, and the ability to use that for them. So I hope that the team being able to focus in and be their best translates to a wine that's made by people who who care about their planet and their impact on it and how they can be their best.
And, you know, I'm always pushing for change and continuous improvement in quality and but also being super respectful of our resources. And I think I think that gives people to the chance, enhance what they're doing every day. And so hopefully every time you open a bottle of wine, it tastes a little bit better.
Doug
Well, yeah. And you're not saying that, but I'm going to say it. I think from knowing you and hearing your story and exposure early on to people like Tony Soter and John Skupny and then later on at St. Supery with Michael and having, you know, when he left and you had to jump in and you made a concerted effort to learn the vineyard side of the business, to learn the winemaking side of the business.
And really and I know you know that because our conversations at these board meetings through the years, you know, when I mentioned something regarding vineyard to production, you know exactly what I'm talking about. And I think the fact that you have such an appreciation well, not just appreciation, but knowledge of what it takes to produce good grapes and great wines just makes you that much better of a leader.
And then you throw in your strategy and your Al Brounstein focus on branding and, you know, you end up with a winner. So my my compliments. I think it's fantastic.
Emma
Aw, thanks.
Doug
Well done. Well done.
Emma
That's very sweet.
Doug
Well, you know, you know me. If it's not true, I don't say it. So there you go. But meanwhile, I do have to say, I mean, your career, these transactions that Coppola Inglenook things, Sebastiani, Constellation, St. Supery, and Chanel, I mean, I mean, does it seem like you're doing the deal every time you turn around because the deals are big! It's a big thing.
Emma
It is a big thing. And I think you don't realize unless you've done one, how much work it is to do and keep your business running at a top level and to do quietly and divide your your mental state. And, you know, diligence really is a bad word. It's so hard, you know, But but, you know, I I've enjoyed everyone I've worked with on those transactions. It's exhausting. It's a lot of work. And I'm I'm happy that that Chanel like St. Supery as we are and gives us the permission to be better every day. And I don't have to turn around and sell the winery again.
Doug
Good, good. Well, speaking of St. Supery, what's going on? What's happening today? What's new? What's coming up? Anything we need to know about?
Emma
Well, one exciting new thing is we purchased a new vineyard last August, so it's been a, you know, a few months and very exciting. We purchased right before harvest here in Rutherford, and it's 48 acres with 42 acres of vineyard. And so that's a nice addition to our Sauvignon Blanc program. And beautiful, delicious fruit from the vineyard this year.
It's exciting to taste the wines and look at where we're going to go with those. And we're also working with an organization called Fed by Blue, and Hope in the Water or is going to be part of our sustainable seafood programing this year. And and having our Sauvignon Blanc wines go to continue to support important organizations promoting and protecting our oceans and putting sustainable seafood on our plate.
Doug
Great. Good to hear. And for those who might not be familiar to give us a rundown on the wines St. Supery offers.
Emma
So here at St. Supery, we produce only wines that we grow, produce and bottle ourselves. In the beautiful Napa Valley. We grow primarily Sauvignon Blanc and Cabernet Sauvignon, but all of the red Bordeaux varietals and a little tiny bit of Muscat Caneli. And we do that in a sustainable fashion. We've been certified Napa Green in the vineyards since 2008 and then the winery since 2012. And we love the Napa Green program because we can continuously improve every three years and get recertified and, you know, hopefully make a pretty important impact on our environment and keep this place going forever.
Doug
Yeah, got to. Got to, got to. And where can people find your wines? Can you can they buy them online through the winery? Is there a good website?
Emma
Absolutely. It's stsupery.com. But also, you know, any of your favorite retail locations, you can find a number of our wines and your favorite restaurants. And if they don't have them, please do ask.
Doug
Yeah, and I just I know where your office is, so I have to stop by and grab some. Just last time I stopped by, there is a bunch of cases for me, so thank you for that. But that's a whole other story.
Emma, thank you so much for taking the time today. I know you are so busy, so I really appreciate it and great to hear your story. Thanks so much.
Emma
Well, thank you, Doug. That was fun to catch up.
Doug
All right. Take care. I'll see you in a meeting soon. Okay.
Emma
All right.
Doug
All right. Bye.
Emma
Bye bye.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
00:00:00
Hey, everybody, Doug Shafer. Welcome back to The Taste. Today's guest's from a well-known, longtime, top quality Napa winery. I'd like to welcome a fellow vintner, who's followed a very similar path as mine, working side by side with her father to produce great wines, Violet Grgich of Grgich Hills. Welcome.
Violet Grgich:
00:00:20
Thank you so much, Doug. It's a pleasure to be here.
Doug Shafer:
00:00:23
Yeah. I appreciate you taking the time. We're still finishing up harvest. So, um, thanks so much and really been looking forward to this to talking to you, a lot to cover. Grgich Hills has been around for 45 years if my, did my math, right. And so a lot of stories both you, your dad, and a lot of family history, mostly around wine, so I think we should start way, way back and with your dad and his family.
Violet Grgich:
00:00:48
For those who, who may not know, Mike Grgich, Violet's dad, was one of the founders of Grgich Hills winery, ah, but a long time before that, he was born in the '20s in Croatia and his father was a winemaker. Is that right? Did I get that right, Violet?
Violet Grgich:
00:01:02
You sure did.
Doug Shafer:
00:01:03
So, talk to me, how far back does winemaking go with you guys?
Violet Grgich:
00:01:08
Winemaking is sort of part of Croatian peasant blood. My father grew up in a very small, very poor village in Dalmatia, which is the coastal region of Croatia, and especially well-known for its wines, but pretty much everybody there made everything that they produced.
Violet Grgich:
00:01:25
One of the most important things was wine. You drink wine every day, um, not just because you liked it, but because it, there was actually a practical reason, the water was often known to make you sick. So, if you mix it up with wine, you not only would not get sick, but it'd be a lot easier working in the fields. So, wine was something that was, you know, they didn't have a winery, you know, the kids, you know, all stomped grapes. My dad talks about how he went from stomping grapes and, and actually enjoying it, but he also went, I guess, from going from breast milk to wine. So, that's how he started.
Doug Shafer:
00:01:59
Wow.
Violet Grgich:
00:01:59
And I guess he thought that this was very exciting and very passionate. His dad was known as the best winemaker in the village.
Doug Shafer:
00:02:06
I think that's really cool. Everybody's making wine. Now...
Violet Grgich:
00:02:11
Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
00:02:12
So, he was making, so, he was part of making wine from as far as he can remember, that's what you're telling me.
Violet Grgich:
00:02:33
Literally, and I think before he can remember. So, you know, the parents would throw, especially the young kids and the grape vats and they were self-contained and they didn't need to worry about running after while they were off harvesting. So, you know, childcare and work at the same time.
Doug Shafer:
00:02:49
I love it. I love it. I love that whole idea about you gotta drink wine every day at every meal just to, you know, for your health reasons. So, I'm gonna try that. I'm going to run that up the flag at home and see if it works.
Violet Grgich:
00:02:58
He’s 99. So, he definitely, it definitely works, so …
Doug Shafer:
00:03:02
I won't, yeah, I won't get much work done, but, you know, if you cut it 50/50 with water, that's not bad. That works. That makes sense.
Violet Grgich:
00:03:08
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:03:09
Yeah. Okay. All right. I'll try that one. So, as he grew up, he had a tough go, he and his family. They were living a challenging place to live with World War Two in the communist takeover. Can you tell me some of the things he and his family went through?
Violet Grgich:
00:03:25
He actually went through quite a bit. Originally, starting with his father and going to World War One. The average number of kids in the village was 16 and his father was away for five years. And therefore, they only had 11 children, but his mom single handedly, you know, did all the work and you know for the family and the village and then once the Italians came over and took over Dalmatia, he had a number of experiences where he was absolutely certain he was going to get killed. He was, you know, held at gunpoint. He was arrested. He was interrogated. He was mistaken for a communist guerrilla by the same name of Milenko Grgich, but he ended up surviving.
Violet Grgich:
00:04:08
Finally, I think when the Germans came, they burned his village down and to this day, you can still see the ruins of the house he was born in. It's mostly, mostly stone but one of these days, if I have a chance, I'd love to rebuild that and bring it back into use again.
Doug Shafer:
00:04:24
Wow. Wow. What a, what a, what a childhood. How tough.
Violet Grgich:
00:04:28
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:04:30
And then, but, but he, he survived, as you said, he moved on and he ended up at the studying wine into university. Is that correct?
Violet Grgich:
00:04:40
That's correct. He actually started studying business and because he heard they needed bookkeepers. And after he worked for a year for the town of Metkovic, which was close to where the town he grew up, he realized that all he had for his troubles was a cabinet full of papers and decided he didn't want to end his life with 70 cabinets full of papers and went back to wine because he actually had a passion for wine. He had a ha -- And it's, you know, wine is something that brings you close to nature between grape growing and winemaking. And so he ended up studying Viticulture and Enology at the University of Zagreb, which is the capital of Croatia.
Doug Shafer:
00:05:18
Wow. And then, okay, so Croatia-California, how does that happen?
Violet Grgich:
00:05:24
Mm-hmm.
Violet Grgich:
Doug Shafer: 00:05:24
I mean, come on. I mean, I mean, there's Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, and that's really create wine regions close by. I mean, what do you doing?
Violet Grgich:
00:05:33
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:05:34
Especially back then, because this was when he got out of school, what time period are we talking about?
Violet Grgich:
00:05:42
So, we're talking about the late '40s, early '50s.
Doug Shafer:
00:05:46
Right. So, California.
Violet Grgich:
00:05:47
And-
Doug Shafer:
00:05:47
Yeah, it wasn't on the map. So, how did...
Violet Grgich:
00:05:50
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:05:50
... how do you, how do you get to California and why California? I'm just fascinated by that one.
Violet Grgich:
00:05:55
Well, it actually was Napa Valley specifically. And that's a pretty amazing story. His favorite professor actually ended up taking a year of sabbatical to UC Berkeley, of all places. And now, of course, the communists are completely in control at this point and they are always and that said horrible things about the United States and what it was like and how terrible it was. And so when his professor finally came back, he wanted to know, well, what exactly is the United States like.
Violet Grgich:
00:06:26
And his professor was very reluctant to speak to him because, again, communist spies. They could get in pretty big trouble. Turned out, he actually did get into big trouble, but he told my dad that America was a place where you could actually achieve your dreams and he told him that Napa Valley was paradise. He'd been there. He was impressed. He recognized that the terrain, the geography, the climate, and that literally inspired my dad.
Violet Grgich:
00:06:56
So, when his professor finally got into trouble and was retired early, and he, my dad also heard the secret police were after him, he ended up escaping to Germany. He had, actually, the very first year that they issued United Nations visas for students to go and study and then come back after the summer.
Doug Shafer:
00:07:18
Wow.
Violet Grgich:
00:07:18
And he already had this visa, but he ended up leaving earlier than he was expected to. He didn't quite finish his master's degree and he fled. And he'd been collecting American dollars, because he knew he wanted to go to Napa Valley, but he actually had somebody sew those into the soul of a shoe. So he escaped. He was actually in Germany for over four years. He worked with a family called the Franks. They had a large farm. They actually developed seeds.
Violet Grgich:
00:07:49
So he worked on the farm, always trying to figure out how was he going to get to Napa Valley. And it turns out that, well, it's, it's, it's a long story, and actually a lot of details in his book, which is called A Glass Full of Miracles, but he ended up accepting a visa to Canada. Couldn't get the American one, but he figured Canada was next door and apparently they had a need of lumberjacks in the Yukon.
Violet Grgich:
00:08:13
So he actually, he actually got a visa to become a lumberjack. And for those of you guys who...
Doug Shafer:
00:08:18
Yeah.
Violet Grgich:
00:08:18
... know my dad...
Doug Shafer:
00:08:19
Yeah, no.
Violet Grgich:
00:08:20
... he was pretty short.
Doug Shafer:
00:08:21
He, he's-
Violet Grgich:
00:08:21
You can't really imagine him being a lumberjack. It's pretty funny. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
00:08:23
No. I, no, that's of that, I can't get, I can't get there, but no, Violet, this is crazy. I, I, got to roll, roll the tape back, that he heard the secret police were after him. What were they after him for?
Violet Grgich:
00:08:33
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:08:33
What were they, what was going on?
Violet Grgich:
00:08:35
Because his professor had spoken to him.
Doug Shafer:
00:08:41
Ah. I see.
Violet Grgich:
Violet Grgich: 00:08:41
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
00:08:41
So-
Violet Grgich:
00:08:41
And it's, it was, you know, growing up, my dad was concerned about communist spies in America. He was concerned about ensuring that he would remain free. And in fact, he never dared to go back to Croatia because he'd heard what had happened to some people that he knew, some Croatians he knew through the communist government and he didn't go back until Croatia had actually declared independence from the state of Yugoslavia.
Doug Shafer:
00:09:04
Wow.
Violet Grgich:
00:09:04
And that was in 1991.
Doug Shafer:
00:09:07
Wow. And so he-
Violet Grgich:
00:09:08
Yeah. And he hadn't-
Doug Shafer:
00:09:09
So he fled. I'm interrupting. I apologize, but geez...
Violet Grgich:
00:09:12
It's okay.
Doug Shafer:
00:09:12
I mean, I mean, you know, he left his parents, his mom, his brothers and sisters. He just, he took off. I mean...
Violet Grgich:
00:09:19
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:09:19
... that's, that's tough. That's really tough.
Violet Grgich:
00:09:21
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
00:09:22
Yeah.
Violet Grgich:
00:09:22
And not knowing if you'd ever see them again.
Doug Shafer:
00:09:26
And then Germany for four years, working on a farm...
Violet Grgich:
00:09:30
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:09:30
... but he still had Napa Valley. And, you know, I didn't know all this.
Violet Grgich:
00:09:31
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
00:09:31
This is fascinating. Okay, so he's in Canada, and then somehow...
Violet Grgich:
00:09:35
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:09:35
... he gets, somehow he gets across the border.
Violet Grgich:
00:09:38
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:09:39
How do you do that?
Violet Grgich:
00:09:40
So, he placed an ad in the Wine Institute, and ah, he said, he was, he would work for $100 a month. I know it's hard to imagine, but so he ended up being hired by Lee Stewart at Souverain Cellars. I don't know if any of your listeners know of Lee Stewart. For my dad's book, it was almost impossible to find a photograph because he was such a humble man, but Warren Winiarski of Stag's Leap also worked with Lee Stewart as part of his education, learning how to make wine. So...
Doug Shafer:
00:10:09
Wow.
Violet Grgich:
00:10:09
... that's how he made it to Napa Valley. And what was amazing was that his very first morning, he shows up at Souverain Cellars and he's in shock because he sees a vineyard and it looks exactly like his native grape Plavac mali that grows in Croatia.
Doug Shafer:
00:10:27
Okay.
Violet Grgich:
00:10:27
So he thought, "What is this? I've arrived in Napa. I don't know anybody yet and yet I have a friend in these vines." Later on, it was found out through his efforts that Zinfandel actually originated in Croatia, and was the parents of that Plavac mali grape.
Doug Shafer:
00:10:43
That's right. And then, do you guys still make Zinfandel, Grgich?
Violet Grgich:
00:10:46
We, we absolutely do.
Doug Shafer:
00:10:48
There you go.
Violet Grgich:
00:10:49
It's not, it's not the kind of Zinfandel that most people think of California Zinfandel is. Ours is lighter. It's got amazing balance and in fact, one time it won a pinot noir competition.
Doug Shafer:
00:10:58
(laughs) There you go, I love that.
Violet Grgich:
00:11:00
So, not your, not your typical Zinfandel.
Doug Shafer:
00:11:01
I love it. So, he shows up in California, I think it's around late '50s, right? '58, something like that? Is that about the right time?
Violet Grgich:
00:11:09
'58. It's-
Doug Shafer:
00:11:10
Yeah.
Violet Grgich:
00:11:11
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:11:11
So, I mean, he gets in, um, he, boy, and, and, how is, did he speak English?
Violet Grgich:
00:11:19
He did.
Doug Shafer:
00:11:20
Okay.
Violet Grgich:
00:11:20
He did. He actually had a great education. He spoke English, of course, with an accent. And that remains to this day. So, some, sometimes he puts on a little heavier accent just for fun, you know, but ah-
Doug Shafer:
00:11:32
That's, yeah, that's when he has the twinkle in his eye. I've seen that.
Violet Grgich:
00:11:35
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:11:35
I've seen that play.
Violet Grgich:
00:11:36
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:11:38
But no, no career as a lumberjack. You skipped over that, which was good. That makes sense.
Violet Grgich:
00:11:42
No. No. Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:11:43
But you mentioned this, so he, I didn't realize he had a book out. Um, can you tell me the title again, so people can look for it? That's-
Violet Grgich:
00:11:49
Absolutely. It's called A Glass Full of Miracles.
Doug Shafer:
00:11:54
Okay, good.
Violet Grgich:
00:11:55
And it's both here at the winery and also on Amazon.
Doug Shafer:
00:11:58
All right. Good.
Violet Grgich:
00:11:58
But, yeah, I'm, I'm, going to send you a book or maybe drop it off in person because I haven't seen you in ages.
Doug Shafer:
00:12:05
You know, I, I'd-
Violet Grgich:
00:12:05
And I think you'll enjoy it.
Doug Shafer:
00:12:06
I'd love to read it. Thank you. I appreciate that.
Violet Grgich:
00:12:08
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:12:09
So, he's at Souverain. And then, now, that was Souverain here in Napa, because there I know there was one in Sonoma, I think, but this, it was...
Violet Grgich:
Violet Grgich: 00:12:16
Correct.
Violet Grgich:
Doug Shafer: 00:12:18
... it's Souverain, that's where Rutherford Hill is now, correct? Is that right?
Violet Grgich:
00:12:20
It's actually Burgess.
Doug Shafer:
00:12:22
Okay, okay.
Violet Grgich:
00:12:22
So, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
00:12:22
It's Burgess.
Violet Grgich:
00:12:24
Tom Burgess ended up buying the winery, changing the name to Burgess. And my understanding is how Lee got the name was, I guess he picked it out. He had ah, a few names and ah he gave it to his daughter to, to take to her class and have them all pick out of a hat. And so that's the one that they picked, which coincidentally is how I got my name. So, I guess my dad thought that was a rather charming American thing to do.
Doug Shafer:
00:12:50
That's a good one. So he's, he's here early on. He's here way before, you know the '70s and all that. So who, who were some of the folks that he worked with in making wine? And, and...
Violet Grgich:
00:13:01
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:13:02
... um, I know, because I know he worked with a bunch of folks. Can you help us out with that one?
Violet Grgich:
00:13:06
Absolutely. So, first was Lee Stewart. He essentially worked harvest and then after harvest wasn't needed, so, he then went to work for Christian Brothers. And that was a family connection. He actually ended up coming to America and actually getting a job in Canada. When the lumberjack thing didn't work out, um, his nephew, who was a priest in Washington, connected him with ah, Vancouver University, and he became a dishwasher. So that's how he got out of being a lumberjack, but...
Doug Shafer:
00:13:37
(laughing).
Violet Grgich:
00:13:37
... he also made a connection with him with Christian brothers. And so we worked with Brother Timothy for a year.
Violet Grgich:
00:13:43
I think most people have heard about Brother Timothy. And after that, he had the opportunity to work with Andre Tchelistcheff. And he'd actually heard of Andre. He had heard that he was the only vintner who actually had studied at the Pasteur Institute in France, that ah, the Marquis de Pins had brought him over to help improve the quality of Beaulieu Vineyard's wines and he definitely was one who literally brought both science and art to winemaking.
Violet Grgich:
00:14:12
Especially because, you know, after Prohibition, things never really came back to the way they used to be prior and Andre was a huge force in ensuring that that happened. Um, he was known as the Dean of California winemakers. He had so many students, it's impossible to count them and he was teaching even, you know, until his death but that's from what I have heard. So he was very inspirational for my father, and he really wanted to meet him.
Violet Grgich:
00:14:38
And after a few months, when Andre finally granted him an audience, um, he was shocked because he spoke to him in Croatian. My dad was, "How, how was that you speak Croatian?"
Doug Shafer:
00:14:49
Wow.
Violet Grgich:
00:14:49
He said, "Well, you know, after our family fled, they were on the wrong side of the war in Russia." And I guess he worked as a traveling musician and singer and dancer in circuses throughout Croatia, throughout Yugoslavia. So, the language-
Doug Shafer:
00:15:04
Wait, wait, wait, Andre Tchelistcheff did?
Violet Grgich:
00:15:07
Yes. Yes. So ah that-
Doug Shafer:
00:15:09
Okay. That's a new one. I haven't heard that one.
Violet Grgich:
00:15:12
That's a new one.
Doug Shafer:
00:15:13
Wow.
Violet Grgich:
00:15:13
So, yeah. So he, my dad, worked for him for nine years. And he really, really loved it. He learned so much from him. He always says every single person that he worked for and worked with, he learned from. Everybody's, you know, something a little bit different. And with Andre, Andre was so passionate about wine, in terms of just quality, but also in terms of the science, in terms of the research as well. So, he and Andre, while he was there, actually developed the process of utilizing Millipore filtration for fil-, filtering devices...
Violet Grgich:
00:15:50
... that they'd heard about it. Nobody had been able to do it successfully. They were the first ones who did it successfully. Ah, they also worked on developing yeast. So, he and Andre, I think, worked on, I, I think, it was the, the, what do you call it, the, the French, the French white...
Doug Shafer:
00:16:04
Mm-hmm. Right.
Violet Grgich:
00:16:04
... that's became a standard that was used in winemaking.
Doug Shafer:
00:16:08
For a long time, yeah.
Violet Grgich:
00:16:08
We developed that. Exactly, also conducted the first industrially induced malolactic fermentation, which was also pretty much. So, it was, there was always innovation there, but also a lot of passion and that's something that my dad had naturally, I think, as a Croatian person, but also being a scientist, when you're able to combine those things, you created some greater, you know, greater than the sum of its parts.
Doug Shafer:
00:16:35
Right.
Violet Grgich:
00:16:35
So.
Doug Shafer:
00:16:36
I can picture those two working together. I can...
Violet Grgich:
00:16:38
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
00:16:38
I can see it and that was...
Violet Grgich:
00:16:40
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:16:40
... that was before anything really hit and that, you know, that filtration thing is big because, you know, the, it didn't really happen, I don't think in this state until people figured out the filtering thing, because you had wines that would go, you know, go weird and go off in the bottle, and it wouldn't be that good.
Violet Grgich:
00:16:57
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:16:57
So getting, getting clean, sound wines was a big step to, you know, getting better and better quality just so people could know...
Violet Grgich:
00:17:04
Right.
Doug Shafer:
00:17:04
... that know that it was going to be solid. I mean, um.
Violet Grgich:
00:17:07
Right, and, and actually talking about clean, that was another thing that he learned from Lee Stewart. Lee Stewart was extraordinarily precise. He had learned from Andre Tchelistcheff. He'd written everything down in a notebook, and he religiously followed every single little thing. He also was completely um, um, phobic about microbes, and everything was always cleaned, was always sterilized. And my dad realized, especially coming to BV, that one of the reasons that wines were inconsistent in terms of quality was lack of that sterility...
Doug Shafer:
00:17:42
Mm-hmm.
Violet Grgich:
00:17:43
... not just sterility, but also you want to top your tanks up, you want to top your barrels up. You don't want to leave that air that can expose, um, again, additional microbial growth that can spoil the wines.
Doug Shafer:
00:17:54
Right.
Violet Grgich:
00:17:55
So, it was, there was a lot of stuff that he learned and it was very exciting. And I realize he didn't end with, with Andre Tchelistcheff, but it's funny because he said, "Well, you know, Andre had a son and his son was, I'm sure, gonna take over, so I needed to go somewhere else." So where does he go, but Robert Mondavi who has two sons and a daughter...
Doug Shafer:
00:18:16
(laughing).
Violet Grgich:
00:18:17
... um, but um, Robert really, really wanted my dad to come work for him. He was impressed with what he had done at, at Beaulieu Vineyards. He knew that, ah, Andre was especially known for his red wines. His private reserved, De Latour Cabernet, Georges de Latour Cabernet, Robert had more experience with white wines. And so, when my dad came to Robert Mondavi, Robert Mondavi, he brought that knowledge with him. And in fact, he was the one that made the wine that put Robert Mondavi on the map, and that was the 1969 Cabernet.
Doug Shafer:
00:18:51
Got it.
Violet Grgich:
00:18:51
So, yeah, that was a...
Doug Shafer:
00:18:53
Yeah. That was a lot.
Violet Grgich:
00:18:53
... a lot of people's have forgotten that, you know.
Doug Shafer:
00:18:55
Yeah.
Violet Grgich:
00:18:55
My, my dad's not just a, you know, one song wonder, as they call it, or one hit wonder. So he started with the Cabernet there. He also made Robert Mondavi's very first Fume Blanc.
Doug Shafer:
00:19:05
Okay.
Violet Grgich:
00:19:05
Robert, most people don't know, most people think of Robert Mondavi as a winemaker and as a force of nature and it's absolutely true that he's a force of nature, but he really was a marketer.
Violet Grgich:
00:19:18
And so, not only, you know, he, he was more instrumental in making Napa Valley famous probably even than the Paris tasting, even though that, that, that literally put it on the map, but just that alone wouldn't have done it without Robert's belief that Napa could someday produce wines that could be as good as the French.
Doug Shafer:
00:19:35
Oh, yeah.
Violet Grgich:
00:19:35
And so, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
00:19:36
That was...
Violet Grgich:
00:19:37
So that-
Violet Grgich:
Doug Shafer: 00:19:38
That was the speech, you know. He gave it forever and it just...
Violet Grgich:
00:19:40
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:19:41
... you know, it worked and would, was just he believed it and, and he shared as you know, you know, they've, Mondavi always shared their ideas with everybody. You know, I'm, if he helped me out, I remember going over there and talking to a guy one time.
Violet Grgich:
00:19:53
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:19:54
So big leader, but don't wanna get too far ahead. I want to back up a sec. So tell me about your mom. What's her story?
Violet Grgich:
00:20:08
Well, my mom actually, they met in Croatia and it's a very interesting story. My mom's younger sister, and my dad's niece happened to be best friends.
Doug Shafer:
00:20:17
Okay.
Violet Grgich:
00:20:18
And when his niece was going to school in ah, in Split, which is where they lived at the time, and also at that time, the war was going on. And so they had, she lived with the family. And apparently, at one point, as a young teenager, she went to visit her friend in her home, hometown, which is the little village where my dad was born and apparently, she was traveling first by boat, and then by train, and there happened to be a gentleman who was sitting next to her and asked her, "So, where are you going?" and "Oh," you know.
Violet Grgich:
00:20:55
So he was asking a lot of questions and she was a little scared, but it turns out that once they got there, her, he, he said, so, so, you know, "Where are you going?" And she says, "Well, I'm, I send it. You know, I'm going to see my friend." "Oh, where is she?" "Oh, she's in Desna." "Oh, and how do you know she's going to be there?" "Well, I sent a telegram." She didn't get. "When did you send it?"
Violet Grgich:
00:21:16
So, interestingly enough, because, you know, he knew that the telegram wouldn't get there for four days and turn, turns out that when she's there, turns out that this gentleman happens to be my dad.
Doug Shafer:
00:21:27
Wow.
Violet Grgich:
00:21:27
And so he ended up introducing her to and bringing her over to his, her, his niece. And so that's, that's sort of how the families met. And, in fact, her friend, whose name is Yelets Jeramaz, her son is my cousin, Ivo Jeramaz, who is our vice president and winemaker and responsible for our vineyards.
Doug Shafer:
00:21:51
Right. And Ivo has been there...
Violet Grgich:
00:21:51
So-
Doug Shafer:
00:21:51
... for a long time. Totally. Yeah.
Violet Grgich:
00:21:52
For a long time, since 1986.
Doug Shafer:
00:21:53
Yeah.
Violet Grgich:
00:21:54
Yes. Yup. Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:21:56
Wow.
Violet Grgich:
00:21:56
So it's a family connection and he came, of course, first, and then in 1962, she came about a month before they were married. And then, I came along in 1965 and had a really wonderful upbringing, you know. I spent so much time with both of my parents. My dad used to take me with him everywhere in the vineyards and the winery. Um, I remember when he was at Mondavi, he used to have his office and the lab up in the tower. And it was so much fun, because there were these rickety wooden stairs that lead up, you know, circular stair up to the tower and I always felt like Rapunzel...
Doug Shafer:
00:22:33
(laughing).
Violet Grgich:
00:22:33
... and, you know, it was out of a fairy tale because it was so, so fun. And, yeah, I remember Tim Mondavi making me paper airplanes, and it was, it was really fun and I especially enjoyed Chateau Montelena growing up because they had a beautiful lake ... with these fabulous islands and these amazing pagodas. The wreck of a junk on the edge and this castle that, you know, in the, in the mountain and it was just, it was a kid's paradise.
Doug Shafer:
00:23:02
Well, and young adults, we used to, we used to have these toga parties after harvest. So that was a whole different experience, but it was up there on the lake.
Violet Grgich:
00:23:09
Oh, wow.
Doug Shafer:
00:23:11
Oh, yeah.
Violet Grgich:
00:23:12
I never, I never got to go to those.
Doug Shafer:
00:23:13
Well, you were too young, my friend. Come on. You know.
Violet Grgich:
00:23:15
I guess, I guess. Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:23:18
Yeah. It was, yeah. And, and then we got too old to do it, but they were, they were pretty wild. Anyway, so, so your dad, so you're growing up, you're just, you're living it. He's a, he's at Mondavi. So he was at BV for you, I think you said nine years or not that long?
Violet Grgich:
00:23:30
Nine years.
Doug Shafer:
00:23:32
Nine years.
Violet Grgich:
00:23:33
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:23:33
And then went to Mondavi and put them on the map with the Fume Blanc and that nine, 69 cap. So how long was he at Mondavi? I think, four or five years?
Violet Grgich:
00:23:41
My gosh. Yeah, a little, a little more than that. I have to...
Doug Shafer:
00:23:44
Right.
Violet Grgich:
00:23:45
... divide my easy math here, but his first vintage at Chateau Montelena was a '72.
Doug Shafer:
00:23:50
Right. So-
Violet Grgich:
00:23:51
So, yeah.
Violet Grgich:
Doug Shafer: 00:23:51
Yeah. How do you, how'd that switch happen from Mondavi, which was, you know, the place at that time to Montelena, which is just starting, I think, at that point in time.
Violet Grgich:
00:24:00
Right, right. And it actually hadn't started yet.
Doug Shafer:
00:24:03
Okay.
Violet Grgich:
00:24:03
So my dad had, they did some custom crushing. And at this point, Robert Mondavi had started out pretty small...
Doug Shafer:
00:24:10
Mm-hmm.
Violet Grgich:
00:24:10
... but they've been growing really, really quickly. And, um, I remember my dad hiring Zelma Long as, um, as his assistant, and at some point, she would say, "How come, why is it here that every time I drive by your, you know, I see your car parked at the winery, you're there, you're always there. You're working too much. You needed," you know.
Doug Shafer:
00:24:28
(laughing).
Violet Grgich:
00:24:29
So, I guess, I guess at some point Lee Paschich, she was one of the owners of, of Chateau Montelena also owned a vineyard and he would bring his Chardonnay to Mondavi to have it custom crushed. So, he knew that my dad made that '69 Cabernet and he, as well as the other partners who were Ernie Hahn, and Jim Barrett, they were mostly fond of red bo, red Bordeaux, and that's, they wanted to make Cabernet.
Violet Grgich:
00:24:56
And because my dad had made that '69 Cabernet for Mondavi, they wanted to snag him. So he, ah, he interviewed with them and thought it might be interesting and then he went back to Robert Mondavi and said, "Well, Robert, what do you think? You know, these guys are offering me an opportunity to become a limited partner. You know, I really enjoyed here, but this is a great opportunity. How do you feel about it?" And he said, "Mike, you need to do what your, where your heart leads you. They sound like a good group of guys. If it works out, fabulous. If not, please come back because you'll always have a home here."
Doug Shafer:
00:25:29
Wow.
Violet Grgich:
00:25:29
And, ah, so yeah, very...
Doug Shafer:
00:25:31
That's... I've never heard that.
Violet Grgich:
00:25:32
... very -
Doug Shafer:
00:25:33
That's really cool. That's so nice.
Violet Grgich:
00:25:35
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:25:36
That's good.
Violet Grgich:
Violet Grgich: 00:25:36
Mm-hmm. Yeah. He was well known for his, his generosity...
Doug Shafer:
00:25:40
Mm-hmm.
Violet Grgich:
00:25:41
... and his, you know, working with other, with other vintners and sharing everything, you know. I mean, what other person would, you know, give a group of vintners and say, "Here's my wine. Tell me, what do you think I could improve and how could I do that?" You know, vintners don't usually do that. At least, not for a long time.
Doug Shafer:
00:25:56
No. No.
Violet Grgich:
00:25:57
I feel, I feel, things have definitely changed. So-
Doug Shafer:
00:25:59
Yeah, I mean, well, '73, that's when we, we moved out here from Chicago.
Violet Grgich:
00:26:05
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:26:06
I think there were only 20 wineries in the Valley...
Violet Grgich:
00:26:08
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:26:08
... at that time. So it was pretty small, small community.
Violet Grgich:
00:26:13
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:26:13
So, okay, so he makes the move to Montelena, which is exciting. He makes this '73 Chardonnay, which is kind of famous, and there's a story behind it. And so for those of you who haven't heard about the Paris tasting, Violet, if you don't mind, can you fill us in?
Violet Grgich:
00:26:30
So, the Paris tasting or otherwise known as the Judgment of Paris happened in 1976 and it was organized by an Englishman who owned a wine shop and wine school, and his, his partner. So that was Steven Spurrier and Patricia Gallagher and they were mostly selling to expatriates. I mean, what Frenchman in their right mind would actually buy French wine from an Englishman. I mean, crazy, nuts.
Violet Grgich:
00:26:58
So he wanted to drum up a little bit of publicity. And he and Patricia had been going to California and had been really impressed with some of the wines that they were trying. So they thought it would be really fun, since it also happened to be the American Bicentennial, to introduce the French to what was going on in California, and also to, you know, drum up some publicity for their wine shop and wine school.
Violet Grgich:
00:27:24
So they decided to make it more interesting and really stack the, stack the deck by introducing literally the best French white burgundies and red Bordeaux. So he literally rigged the tasting so that the French would win, and then send out invitations to all the press and the press sort of looked at this and went, "Well, this isn't an event. The French are going to win.
Doug Shafer:
00:27:50
Right.
Violet Grgich:
00:27:50
Why should we bother and waste our time?" And so, the one, ah, press person who did attend happen to be a rookie journalist from Time magazine, and being a rookie, he's like, "Well, it doesn't make sense, but you know, if I don't have anything better to do, I'll show up." And he had nothing better to do and turns out he was the only journalist at the tasting...
Doug Shafer:
00:28:11
(laughing).
Violet Grgich:
00:28:11
... and because he was the only one, he got the list of the wines.
Doug Shafer:
00:28:15
Oh, wow.
Violet Grgich:
00:28:16
And at first, he also thought, "Yeah, this is going to be boring for us. The French are gonna win." So he not only Steven, Patricia not only stacked with the best French wines, but they also got the most talented French vintners, chefs, professionals, professionals, and they did a blind tasting so they didn't know what they were drinking. And for a while, you know, what's his name, George Taber.
Doug Shafer:
00:28:44
Right.
Violet Grgich:
00:28:44
You know, just sort of stood by and listened. And then all of a sudden, he started hearing something interesting. "Ah, this wine has no nose. It must be Californian."
Doug Shafer:
00:28:53
(laughing).
Violet Grgich:
00:28:53
And he looked down and he's like, "Oh my gosh, that's one of the top French wines."
Doug Shafer:
00:28:59
Oh, 'coz he had the, he had the list. Yeah.
Violet Grgich:
00:29:01
He had the list.
Doug Shafer:
00:29:02
Yeah.
Violet Grgich:
00:29:03
And then, "Ah, finally, back to, back to France." And like, "Uh-oh, that's Napa."
Doug Shafer:
00:29:08
Right. (laughing).
Violet Grgich:
00:29:08
So like, "This is getting interesting." So, it turns out that first they tasted the whites and then the reds. My dad's '73 Montelena came in as the top scoring wine in the entire competition. And Warren Winiarski's Stag's Leap Cabernet won the red portion. And George wrote an article, a small article in Time Magazine, which I guess they ended up calling it the shot that was heard around the world...
Doug Shafer:
00:29:33
Right. Right.
Violet Grgich:
00:29:35
... and horrified, French were horrified. Several of the tasters ended up forcefully trying to get their ballots back. Steven was like, literally, physically kicked out of places in France because the French just could not believe that he had done something to them. You know, it was awful.
Doug Shafer:
00:29:53
Wow.
Violet Grgich:
00:29:53
And whereas, you know, Americans were not really known for being wine drinkers. You know, as my dad says, "Well, they drink milk. How can you, how can you drink milk?"
Doug Shafer:
00:30:01
(laughs).
Violet Grgich:
00:30:01
Milk's a food, you know. And so, uh, it, it literally created a wave that sort of kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And on the East Coast, people were more familiar with wines and enjoying wine every day. I drank wine every day. I grew up on it. That's, that's what I drank, along with my parents. For some reason, kids at school, were wondering why it was, you know, “Gosh, your mom cooks?" Like, well, how do you eat otherwise? Um, I guess they grew up on TV dinners.
Violet Grgich:
00:30:28
So, it was a very different, you know, scene on the West Coast. And, you know, it was only special occasions that people drank wine. And that definitely started to change. People became more interested in it, not just as a special beverage, but as something that, you know, eventually, and it took a while, you might be able to enjoy every day as something that's really healthy and enjoyable. And that hey, by the way. It can also be an incredible work of art.
Doug Shafer:
00:30:53
Right.
Violet Grgich:
00:30:53
So.
Doug Shafer:
00:30:54
No, it's just, you know, thanks for telling us that story. Because it did really... you know, if the timing was perfect, because grapes for getting replanted after Prohibition, and new wineries are on the scene and new technology led by Mondavi and others, and Andre and your dad. And just the quality was improving. And we got some great, you know, PR from that. And so, people start paying attention.
Violet Grgich:
00:31:19
Um, so, I mean, that's a feather in his cap, and that bottle of 73 'chard. Is it true that... I think it's on display. There's a bottle of it, uh, on display at the Smithsonian Museum.
Violet Grgich:
00:31:30
It is. There is. It was really -
Doug Shafer:
00:31:33
That's, that's pretty cool. I mean...
Violet Grgich:
00:31:35
It is.
Doug Shafer:
00:31:36
Yeah.
Violet Grgich:
00:31:36
Well, it's not just the bottle that's there. They also have his suitcase that he-
Doug Shafer:
00:31:41
Oh.
Violet Grgich:
00:31:41
... took to America. His suitcase was full of, actually, textbooks as well as his ebulliometer. He wanted to make sure that when he finally got a job as a winemaker that he kept up with the study. So, you know, while he was working at all these other different jobs in, in Vancouver, um, other guys would take breaks and play bocce ball. And he would be standing by the side and reading his textbooks, just to make sure that he retained all of that knowledge, that his education didn't go to waste.
Violet Grgich:
00:32:11
So the suitcase is there. It's great. I've got... it's, it's wonderful. I have to say having, you know, gone there for the opening of that display, it's an, it's an, it's part of the display as part that includes Julia Child's kitchen. And not only is the bottle there in a suitcase, but his famous beret is there also.
Doug Shafer:
00:32:29
(laughs).
Violet Grgich:
00:32:30
Oh, it's, it's, it's very amazing. And my dad, still to this day, is, is in sort of shock and disbelief that, you know... he's like, "I'm the only other Croatian there, other than Nikola Tesla."
Doug Shafer:
00:32:41
Right.
Violet Grgich:
00:32:42
Uh, another thing happened a few... a number of years later, they, um, wrote a book out of all the millions of artifacts that are owned. The Smithsonian put together a book called 101 Objects That Made American history. And that bottle of wine is included in that book.
Doug Shafer:
00:33:00
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's...
Violet Grgich:
00:33:00
So, very, very excited to have that, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
00:33:04
It, it's he, he got a lot of mileage out of that baby. It's well-deserved. That's cool.
Violet Grgich:
00:33:09
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:33:10
Um, so that was '73. And then, and then '77, um, big change. He, uh, branches out from Montelena. And he gets into his... gets his own winery, um...
Violet Grgich:
00:33:22
Right.
Doug Shafer:
00:33:23
And you were a part of that. You were there. But tell me that story. How did his whole... the whole Grgich Hills Winery come to be?
Violet Grgich:
00:33:31
He had... after the Paris tasting, he had people literally standing in line outside of his door-
Doug Shafer:
00:33:36
Mm-hmm.
Violet Grgich:
00:33:36
... saying, "I, I need you. I want you to come be my winemaker."
Doug Shafer:
00:33:39
(laughs).
Violet Grgich:
00:33:39
And, uh, his goal, you know, he was a limited partner at Chateau Montelena with only about 5%. By the time that he left, his contract had expired. Um, and he felt it was about time to start something on his own. And of all the people that, uh, came and, uh, you know, begged him to come on, he thought that Austin Hills from the Hills Brothers Coffee Family was absolutely the best. He had a background in business. They have their own family winery, the Hills Brothers Coffee, uh, Company.
Doug Shafer:
00:34:10
Mm-hmm.
Violet Grgich:
00:34:11
And, uh, he also had vineyards. And he was having somebody else make wine for him already. So, it seemed, uh, a match made in heaven. And so, Austin, as well as his sister, Mary Lee Strobel, uh, we became partners and founded... actually, broke the grounds on July 4th of 1977.
Violet Grgich:
00:34:31
And that, that was very symbolic for my father because he truly felt that he had completely achieved. There was nothing greater he could achieve in America than starting his own company and to have it be on Independence Day when having, you know, grown up under the thumb of communism and war, to be able to find this freedom in America was just so incredibly inspirational for him. Uh, I guess he was telling that to a friend, and his friend said, "Well, Mike, you know, don't, don't be so hasty." And like, "Well, why not?" He's "Well, you know, you've, you've got the, the county of Napa. You've got the state of California. You've got the federal government. Don't worry, they are all there in partnership with you."
Doug Shafer:
00:35:16
(laughs) Yeah.
Violet Grgich:
00:35:17
So, uh, he still felt it was... he still felt it was well worth it. And, actually, to this day, uh, the thing that he says he's the most proud of is to provide employment for almost 50 people.
Doug Shafer:
00:35:29
Mm-hmm.
Violet Grgich:
00:35:30
And with everything that he's achieved, the fact that that's what, you know, he is most proud of is, is very dear to my heart.
Doug Shafer:
00:35:37
Oh, that's, that's so sweet. That's so sweet and so true, you know, um.
Violet Grgich:
00:35:37
It is.
Doug Shafer:
00:35:37
Yeah, I had that opportunity here with folks who have been here a long, long time. And, you know, I've seen their kids grow up.
Violet Grgich:
00:35:47
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:35:47
And, heck, the local sheriff, um, Oscar Ortiz, you know, was the son of our first vineyard foreman, you know. He was, he was eight years old when we moved out here. My dad used to help him with his homework.
Violet Grgich:
00:36:01
Wow.
Doug Shafer:
00:36:01
So, it's great. It's pretty cool to see that. It's, it's nice. So good. Well, I'm with your... I'm with your dad on that one all day long. And, hey. And prepping for this podcast, I came across something I never knew about. And this is this great Chicago showdown of 1980. You obviously know about this.
Violet Grgich:
00:36:18
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
00:36:18
But, yeah, tell me. It was like, I'd never heard of this thing. That is...
Violet Grgich:
00:36:21
Oh, my gosh. It was, um...
Doug Shafer:
00:36:24
Well, what happened?
Violet Grgich:
00:36:24
So, it was a tasting compiled by... and I'm trying to remember the organization, but they had numerous tasters. They tasted over a period of weeks. And they were, they were all wine professionals. They tasted in many categories, of course, varietals. Uh, it was all, it was all... Sorry, it was all Chardonnay. Uh, they tasted in price categories. They tasted by region. They had, you know, all the semi-finals. And essentially, out of 221 of the best Chardonnays in the world, my dad's came number one.
Doug Shafer:
00:36:54
Wow.
Violet Grgich:
00:36:54
It was our '77 Chardonnay. So, on the heels of that '76 Paris tasting to then have the '77 win such an award, it was pretty amazing. And, uh, after that, he pretty much became known as the king of Chardonnay.
Violet Grgich:
Doug Shafer: 00:37:10
Well, he, yeah, he's always the king of Chardonnay. He was you know... he's, you know, he's not a lumberjack. He's a rockstar, trust me.
Violet Grgich:
00:37:17
That's true. That's true.
Doug Shafer:
00:37:18
You know what I mean. Because I was, um... That was right while I was '83. Well, I was late '70s into the '80s. But yeah, Mike Grgich was the guy, Grgich Hill Chardonnay, that was the go-to.
Violet Grgich:
00:37:28
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:37:29
So, for all of us. Um, so thanks for all that about your dad is fascinating. But let's talk about the you. So, you were growing up at the winery. Um, you were doing every- what, what was that like? Were you doing everything? Did he ever have you working in the field, hauling rocks out, would have... what was that like?
Violet Grgich:
00:37:47
Well, it wa- it was pretty much everything. I mean, I did literally grow up in the vineyard and in the winery. So, it wasn't just a Grgich Hills. He would take, when he went to work on the weekends, because I was out of school, I would tag along, uh, to pretty much to, uh, to Mondavi. I don't remember BV. But I do remember Mondavi. I remember Chateau Montelena, especially. And I was really disappointed when we had-
Doug Shafer:
00:38:12
(laughs).
Violet Grgich:
00:38:12
... you know, this, this flat ground. It's by the road. There's no lake. There's no cave.
Doug Shafer:
00:38:17
(laughs).
Violet Grgich:
00:38:18
There's no gazebos. Uh, like, what is this? This is not as fun as the other. But, uh, I did end up starting to work there, um, probably on the bottling line. And I did that for many years. Then I started working. I, I worked, um, harvests. I worked in the laboratory. And I was very much happy there because I didn't have to talk to people. I was not only not social, but I was painfully, painfully, painfully shy. And, uh, as a musician, that was not a very good thing because I had horrible performance anxiety.
Doug Shafer:
00:38:51
Hmm.
Violet Grgich:
00:38:51
So, the lab was absolutely great. I could commune with... I can do my titrations and do my SO2s and alcohols. And it was wonderful. And then, then my dad started dragging me out and bringing me to various events now. You know, as a kid, I'd grown up, literally, you know, from the time I was very young, going to vintner dinners, going to wine tastings. You know, my mom and dad would always be there. My mom would always be, you know, absolutely vivacious and stylish and-
Doug Shafer:
00:39:20
Right.
Violet Grgich:
00:39:21
... just so incredibly generous. And my dad, when he would open his mouth and speak, everyone's jaws dropped open because he was such an amazing public speaker. And so, I grew up sort of seeing all this from afar, never thinking I would ever be in a position that I had to do it myself. And so, when my dad started trying to get me to do that stuff, it was, it was terrible. It was ... uh, I remember the first time he made me speak in public. And it was ... I remember very well, I was driving him to the Wente Brother's restaurant. And there were two nights of vintner dinners because everything was sold out. So, the second night, I drove him there. And as I'm getting out of the car, he says, "Oh, by the way, tonight, you're going to talk about the Fumé Blanc."
Violet Grgich:
Doug Shafer: 00:40:04
(laughs).
Violet Grgich:
00:40:06
And immediately, I thought my stomach hit the floor. I'm happy it hit the floor and didn't hit the ceiling. Um, there were 100 people there. They had a podium with a microphone. And, you know, I couldn't eat a thing. I was shaking, a terrible trembling. I got to the podium, and I opened my mouth. And nothing came out.
Doug Shafer:
00:40:25
Wow.
Violet Grgich:
00:40:26
For the first time in my life, there was literally not a single word in my brain. I searched. I couldn't... nothing finally came out, until I think I said, "Fumé Blanc … nice … questions?"
Doug Shafer:
00:40:42
(laughs).
Violet Grgich:
00:40:43
And so, it was, it was... I, I cannot tell you how horrible I felt. And somebody decided to ask me a very, um, very complex question. And I'm like, "Oh, I can answer that," you know. So, I... and, and it was so easy once they asked me the questions.
Violet Grgich:
Doug Shafer: 00:40:57
Right.
Violet Grgich:
00:40:57
But my dad kept making me do this and making me do this. And I, I cannot remember how many years. If I knew that I had an event six months out, I'd already start getting terrified for it.
Doug Shafer:
00:41:07
Oh.
Violet Grgich:
00:41:08
Oh, my God. I have to speak in front of people, you know. And at some point, I went to New York, and I went to do a seminar with sommeliers. And I was already terrified.
Doug Shafer:
00:41:20
Right.
Violet Grgich:
00:41:20
And I, I walked up in the host, asked the hostess where to go. And she sort of looked me up and down very slowly and said, "Well, you know, they ask very difficult questions."
Doug Shafer:
00:41:31
Nice, nice, that's really sweet (laughs).
Violet Grgich:
00:41:33
Oh, really, really nice. So, here I am trembling and getting in there. And, of course, I happen to be wearing pale colors. And I stand up and I swirl a glass of Zinfandel. And it starts at my head and sort of-
Doug Shafer:
00:41:43
Oh.
Violet Grgich:
00:41:44
... goes all the way down... all the way down to my toes. And I'm like-
Doug Shafer:
00:41:47
Oh.
Violet Grgich:
00:41:47
... that's it. Gonna die, that's it. No more for me. And, and for some strange reason, I'm like, nothing worse could have happened. And they didn't throw rotten vegetables at me. And I opened my mouth, and I made a joke. And I, I never make jokes.
Doug Shafer:
00:42:01
(laughs).
Violet Grgich:
00:42:01
And since then, it's been a lot easier. And now, apparently, nobody knows that I'm painfully shy.
Doug Shafer:
00:42:08
There you go.
Violet Grgich:
00:42:08
So, that's, that's a great thing. And, you know, I was, I was mad at my dad about that for a long time. But I have to say it was the best thing he ever did, so-
Doug Shafer:
00:42:17
Well, yeah.
Violet Grgich:
00:42:17
... I'm truly grateful.
Doug Shafer:
00:42:20
Yeah, he threw you into it, um.
Violet Grgich:
00:42:21
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:42:21
But you mentioned a little while ago about being a musician. Tell me about that. Was that, was that the major passion or just... or the same as the wine?
Violet Grgich:
00:42:30
Well, for me, I, I had a number of passions. Music was a huge one. Literature, arts, uh, uh, sewing and design, uh, astronomy. I, I had way too many passions, but music was always the one that stood out. And so, when I declared my intent for studying music, um, I, I was told that was not a possibility, because I was going to become a winemaker.
Doug Shafer:
00:42:53
Oh, really?
Violet Grgich:
00:42:54
And, uh, yes.
Doug Shafer:
00:42:56
I was gonna ask you about that. So they, so they laid it on. He laid it on thick, okay. That was good.
Violet Grgich:
00:42:59
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
00:42:59
All right, all right.
Violet Grgich:
00:43:01
Very, very thick, very thick.
Doug Shafer:
00:43:02
Okay.
Violet Grgich:
00:43:02
How are you going to make a living? Well, like-
Doug Shafer:
00:43:04
Right.
Violet Grgich:
00:43:04
... well, most people don't go into winemaking to make a living. So, you know, but... so, it was a long story. But being stubborn Croatians, um, he ended up, uh, the only application that he signed was for UC Davis. So, I went to UC Davis and studied music.
Doug Shafer:
00:43:18
He wouldn't sign up? Oh, that's terrible, I’ll have to talk to him about that.
Violet Grgich:
00:43:22
It's, it's, it's really okay. I actually had a great education at Davis. And the music program was great.
Doug Shafer:
00:43:27
Mm-hmm.
Violet Grgich:
00:43:27
When I applied for Indiana University and went through all their entrance exams, I found that I had a better undergraduate education than most people that gone to famous music schools, so-
Doug Shafer:
00:43:37
Hmm, oh, great.
Violet Grgich:
00:43:38
... it all worked out well.
Doug Shafer:
00:43:39
Oh, yeah.
Violet Grgich:
00:43:40
It all worked out well.
Doug Shafer:
00:43:41
Yeah, I was a Davis. I loved it. I got a great education, and not just grapes and wine. It was wonderful. Um, all right. So, UC Davis music and some wine classes, and then Indiana for a master's in music. And then what, did you go out and work somewhere? Or do... is that when you came back to the winery?
Violet Grgich:
00:44:01
Well, I'd actually been away for a while. So, I, I took my time and I went back to... I wasn't sure what I wanted to do exactly when I graduated from Davis. So, of course, came back to the winery. And, and before I knew that, I turned 30. And I was in shock because I assumed that, by 30, I would already have had my doctorate. But I just gotten so busy that, um, I didn't really think about it. So, I, I ended up going back to Indiana University. Uh, my dad's lawyer called me up and said, "Violet, I have to tell you, you are making a big mistake."
Doug Shafer:
00:44:34
Oh, no.
Violet Grgich:
00:44:34
"This is a very bad thing that you're about to do. And now that I've told you what my dad... your dad told me to tell you, I'm gonna say, go girl, have fun. Learn lots."
Doug Shafer:
00:44:43
(laughs) Oh, that's really great.
Violet Grgich:
00:44:44
So, uh...
Doug Shafer:
00:44:45
That's good. That's good.
Violet Grgich:
00:44:46
So, it's really fun. And I, you know, I kept doing... I, I kept, you know, working for the winery. I, I had a whole bunch of report. I kept doing a whole bunch of things administratively. And I would do wine, you know, tastings and vineyard dinners as well. And then by the time I get back, you know, I'd sort of like, hmm, this is actually, I'm really enjoying this. And my dad was like, "Oh, I'm, I'm really proud that my daughter has a master's in music."
Doug Shafer:
00:45:11
Hmm.
Violet Grgich:
00:45:12
And so, it sort of all fell into place, you know, a little later than, than either of us thought it would. But, um, I've really been, you know, in love with what I do for the longest time. I, you know, I came back and, you know, did more sales and marketing, more tasting room. I worked in accounting. Uh, so, I pretty much did everything and found that I really enjoyed that ability to do everything, and not just be stuck in one particular area where I only had this very specialized field.
Violet Grgich:
00:45:43
But, uh, you know, and I also had a very different view of business. You know, growing up, I thought that business was dull. It was, uh, not evil necessary, but just it was all about money. And, you know, and then the more I experienced it, the more I realized that it's, it's about people and people working together to create something bigger than themselves and to create something that benefits all of their families.
Violet Grgich:
00:46:09
And that it takes a team to be able to do that. And my dad had always been very much a team player. He's totally a rockstar. But he always talked about hiring people who were smarter than he was.
Doug Shafer:
00:46:21
Right.
Violet Grgich:
00:46:21
Always surrounding yourself with the best. He always had a winemaking team. And we continue with this day, you know, he was our winemaker. But we also has... continued to have that winemaking team. And he's always been very much for education for everybody. So, many people hire cellar workers. They don't educate them. They do things. They don't know why they do those things.
Violet Grgich:
00:46:42
They stay at the same pay scale for their entire lives. But here, there's always been... you know, my dad always talked about education. Why it is that you're doing that?
Doug Shafer:
00:46:51
Mm-hmm.
Violet Grgich:
00:46:52
Why are you sterilizing that tank? Why is it that it takes you this much time to do that? And then you do that, but you don't do this? I mean, it was... it's always been something that's been very important. And I think that's helped create an atmosphere, kind of different culture here.
Violet Grgich:
00:47:06
You know, it is very family. It's family-owned and family-operated. And we're very, very proud of that. And, uh...
Doug Shafer:
00:47:12
Well, that's and, and that, the whole family aspect, you know, has sometimes has a lot of different... It's a lot of different, just a different attitude, I think, overall.
Violet Grgich:
00:47:21
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:47:21
And that gets shared with the people that work with you. And, uh, it's, um, it's neat to be a part of it, for sure.
Violet Grgich:
00:47:27
Right.
Doug Shafer:
00:47:28
So, you're doing everything. You're there. You're full time. And then I'm doing my research in the mid-90s. Because I do remember reading about this. Um, you guys started, whether it was you or your dad or both of you, start a new winery in Croatia.
Violet Grgich:
00:47:41
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:47:42
Tell me about that one, that whole experience.
Violet Grgich:
00:47:44
So, that actually was my dad.
Doug Shafer:
00:47:46
Okay.
Violet Grgich:
00:47:46
Um, and he, he did bring, bring me and my cousin along. But he went to Croatia, I'd mentioned. He hadn't been until, uh, since, um, 1954.
Violet Grgich:
00:47:56
Just when he left, uh, Yugoslavia. And when he came back in 1991, or '92 I believe it was, many, many prominent Croatians who, you know, made their name, made a fortune, um, outside, uh, of, uh, Yugoslavia, uh, came back and, you know, talked with the government, talked with the president, how can we be of help? How can we help assist you? And, uh, president, uh, talking to my dad said, "Well, you know, you're famous as a winemaker. You should make... have a winery here in Croatia." And my father's idea for founding this, this winery, this small winery, which is going to be a tiny little hobby, and it still is.
Doug Shafer:
00:48:36
Right.
Violet Grgich:
00:48:36
Only a few thousand cases. Uh, but his idea was to create an educational winery. Because, after, um, gosh... Croatia used to be known as the premier wine growing region of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. And then once communism took over, everything just sort of fell apart. And that idea of really producing quality wines, uh, people got out of the habit. They forgot how to do it. And he really wanted to bring that back to Croatia.
Doug Shafer:
00:49:03
Hmm.
Violet Grgich:
00:49:03
So, his idea was to create a winery in which people could come and be educated. They can, they can come and work and learn. Learn the techniques. Learn everything that he learned throughout his journey after he left Croatia. And, uh, that was rather interesting, because I think that the, the very first thing that vintners there said to him was, "Why are you putting your wine in, in barik? You may as well be throwing it into the Adriatic. You're spoiling it, you know (laughing)." So, uh, it didn't quite turn out to be the educational experience. But his first wines immediately became known as the Vrhunska Vina, the top wines of Croatia.
Doug Shafer:
00:49:41
Oh, cool.
Violet Grgich:
00:49:41
And he made two wines, one Plavac Mali, which is the grape that he thought he saw outside of Souverain Cellars when you first arrived in Napa, but was actually Zinfandel.
Doug Shafer:
00:49:50
Right.
Violet Grgich:
00:49:51
And the other white wine called Pošip.
Doug Shafer:
00:49:53
Okay.
Violet Grgich:
00:49:53
And the winery is called Grgić Vina. We pronounce it Grgich Vina? Uh, it, the only difference in spelling is that there's no "H," but there's an accent over the "C."
Doug Shafer:
00:50:02
Mm-hmm.
Violet Grgich:
00:50:02
That gives it that CH sound. Vina means wines in Croatia. And so, the idea was always to have that connection with our homeland.
Violet Grgich:
00:50:12
Um, the winery is beautiful. We had a major, um, forest fire essentially in 2015. The winery was mostly intact but it ruined our temporary warehouse. And we've lost all of our wines except that which was in barrel and tank. Um, but we rebuilt. We have a beautiful new underground cellar now, a beautiful new tasting room. And I'm working on turning the second floor into a small boutique hotel.
Doug Shafer:
00:50:39
Oh, cool.
Violet Grgich:
00:50:40
It is literally right on the Adriatic. It is such a spectacular location. And due to COVID unfortunately, it's been sort of on, uh, not on backorder but not quite on standstill but still waiting on a lot of things.
Doug Shafer:
00:50:54
Sure, sure.
Violet Grgich:
00:50:54
So, I'm hoping in the next two years to be able to finish that. But the winery is up and running. And it's a gorgeous place to visit. Um, it was my father's project for very many years. And then Ivo is more involved than I am with that. But it's a place that I love to go to and I'm looking forward to finalizing, you know, the hotel and apartments for to be ... Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
00:51:18
Yeah. Well, let me, let me know when that hotel is open so I can go visit. Now, I'm, I'm really curious about the wines. Are ... Do any of the wines make it over here to the States? Or are they all sold locally?
Violet Grgich:
00:51:29
They actually do make it over the States.
Doug Shafer:
00:51:30
Oh, okay.
Violet Grgich:
00:51:31
So, not only do we bring those wines there but we send Grgich Hills wines over to Croatia.
Doug Shafer:
00:51:36
Oh, cool.
Violet Grgich:
00:51:36
So yes, we have them available. We have both the Posip and the Plavac Mali available here at the winery.
Doug Shafer:
00:51:41
Good, good, good.
Violet Grgich:
00:51:42
And due to some compliance, we're not able to ship them to a lot of the states. But definitely, there's some that we can but always feel free to come to the winery and visit, so.
Doug Shafer:
00:51:56
And, and the winery’s on a great location. It's ... I know it's flat, but it's right, right on the road, right? So, you can't, you can't miss it.
Violet Grgich:
00:52:06
It's very easy. You can't miss it.
Doug Shafer:
00:52:06
You can't, can't miss it.
Violet Grgich:
00:52:06
Can't miss it.
Doug Shafer:
00:52:06
That is so cool. And, um, another thing your dad got involved with was the whole Roots for Peace back in the late '90s. Um, what was that all about?
Violet Grgich:
00:52:16
So, I remember very much my dad went to, um, an event. I ... It was ... I can't quite remember what the event was. But he came back and he said, "I have met a woman. She is a force of nature. And she is working on removing landmines." And my father had always been concerned about the landmines that were, you know, left in Croatia. And so, he became one of her first supporters. Uh, and the very first vineyard that they de-mined, her, her, her line is essentially mines to vines. So, it's essentially taking ... removing mines from agricultural land and turning it into productive land.
Violet Grgich:
00:53:00
Um, and she over the course of these many years developed so that she has quite, um, a body of people who work literally very directly, who teach people how it's not just about removing the land and then giving it back to them but it's teaching them, setting up systems so that they can be productive, efficient, training them. Uh, started in Croatia, has moved on to Vietnam and Afghanistan. Um, has gotten support from the United Nations and from the federal government.
Violet Grgich:
00:53:28
That's ... It's, it's an amazing, really amazing. She was ... Heidi Kuhn is the founder. And she was inspired by the words of Princess Diana. They just celebrated their 25th anniversary this year.
Doug Shafer:
00:53:40
Wow.
Violet Grgich:
00:53:41
And we've been very, very proud to support them, uh, for all of these many years and we'll continue to do so into the future. And we hope that at some point that there are no more landmines so that her organization might actually become defunct. That would be the best reason for that to happen.
Doug Shafer:
00:53:58
Yeah, that's a good goal. I like that.
Violet Grgich:
00:54:01
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:54:02
Um, and then somewhere along the line, you, you married some guy named Colin. Tell me about that. I don't know this guy. Tell me about your husband.
Violet Grgich:
00:54:09
Well, of course not. He's from Manhattan Beach. I mean, he's a surfer and a skateboarder. Um, so he ... No, I met-
Doug Shafer:
00:54:18
I, I love it.
Violet Grgich:
Violet Grgich: 00:54:19
He really truly. Um, so, he and I met at Indiana University. I was playing harpsichord and he was playing viola da gamba. And he started out actually as a, as a punk rocker and discovered the viola da gamba through a movie called All the Mornings of the World in that it actually introduces Gerard Depardieu to the American audience.
Violet Grgich:
00:54:40
Um, and he played about this composer, a very super frilly fancy French music. So, he's literally gone from one extreme musically to the other. Um, he ended up moving to San Francisco. And, uh, we just started hanging out in 2000 and literally made beautiful music together. So, we got married in 2003, had a son in 2005. And it's been going strong ever since.
Doug Shafer:
00:55:08
That's great.
Violet Grgich:
00:55:08
And we still play music together, so well.
Doug Shafer:
00:55:10
Well, that's good. That's good. I'm glad you're doing that. And the son, the son is, uh, he's ... I think he's my daughter's age, 17, 18.
Violet Grgich:
00:55:16
Yeah.
Violet Grgich:
Doug Shafer: 00:55:16
So, are we looking at the next, next generation? Are you gonna ... His granddad sat him down and said, um, "This is what you're gonna do?" Or is he able to avoid that?
Violet Grgich:
00:55:27
No. Actually, granddad sat him down and said, "You are very smart and very talented. And do whatever you can. You know, every day, do your best, learn something new and make a friend, follow your passions and you will be able to do whatever you want to in this world." So, I guess it's different when you're a grandparent and when they you're a parent. I, I, I under-, I understand. I'm feeling a bit of that myself, you know.
Violet Grgich:
00:55:54
But I always want to make sure that my son is also surrounded with the best of opportunities and is making the most of them and what- whatever they choose to do in this life and they have many different interests, very, very many for that range of ... wide, wide range of interests and talents. So, all of those at some point can be put to use-
Doug Shafer:
00:56:21
Of course.
Violet Grgich:
00:56:21
... in the future in the wine business, so.
Doug Shafer:
00:56:24
Of course, so. And, you know, following one's passion is, is the secret to, um, you know, happiness.
Violet Grgich:
00:56:30
Right.
Doug Shafer:
00:56:30
Happiness in the, in the work and what you do, so.
Violet Grgich:
00:56:32
Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
00:56:33
Good. Good, good, good. And 2017, you took over as president, finally, which is great. And so the big question is how is that work with, with, you know, Dad. I know he's probably backed off a little bit lately but, um, is that a pretty smooth transition?
Violet Grgich:
00:56:49
Well, it was actually very interesting. I mean, I'd sort of been doing the work for a long time. Um, you know, always in conjunction with my dad and my cousin Ivo. Ivo had been the winemaker for a long time and he'd been doing the job for a long time as well. And I had always expected him literally on his deathbed to say, you know, "Okay, yeah, time, time for you to take over."
Violet Grgich:
00:57:13
And was frankly in shock when he, when he didn't suggest it. He just announced it at our board meeting. And I imagine it had to do because, you know, we had some fires in 2017. It was a difficult vintage for, for many, many reasons. Um, you know, my dad was evacuated for over a month.
Doug Shafer:
00:57:35
Wow.
Violet Grgich:
00:57:36
It's surprising his house didn't burn down. He was literally in the middle of the Tubb's Fire. And, you know, as you recall, we were surrounded by fire, by smoke.
Doug Shafer:
00:57:46
Right.
Violet Grgich:
00:57:46
We had no smoke taint on our grapes. We have had our ... all of our wines analyzed from 2016 on through 2021. As you know, 2020 was another very difficult smoky vintage.
Doug Shafer:
00:57:59
Right.
Violet Grgich:
00:57:59
With no smoke taint whatsoever which we definitely, um, attribute to our regenerative farming practices. We're also certified organic but it's the regenerative agriculture that really makes all the difference. So, in 2017 also, you know, so many things were happening. And, um, I guess I managed to get us through it. And my dad said, "Well, not bad. You're doing okay. Yeah, yeah," you know (laughs).
Violet Grgich:
00:58:29
So, so, so yeah, it was ... It did still feel very much like a big transition to me because even though I'd already been doing the work, that feeling of, you know, he's the, he's the person who is quite literally the rock star. And, you know, he is a rock star who makes every person that he meets feel like they're the most important person in the world.
Violet Grgich:
00:58:50
Um, when new people come to the tasting room and see him walk in and see the reaction, they're like, "Who is this guy? He's amazing." And, you know, I've personally witnessed so many people telling me about how he's influenced their lives. And my favorite one being, a young gal who told me that, you know, she came to the winery with her parents and she said that no grownup had ever spoken to her like my dad spoke to her. He talked to her like she was a grownup. And he told her that if she work hard and if she work smart, she could someday do anything in this world that she wanted, even become president of the United States.
Doug Shafer:
00:59:30
Wow.
Violet Grgich:
00:59:30
And she said that no pers-, no grownup ever influenced her as much as he did. She came to me I think in her 30s along with her mom who was crying while telling me this story. And I, you know, to me, that that really, you know, he's made such a difference in so many people's lives that people don't realize. And it's, yeah, it's tru- truly remarkable.
Doug Shafer:
00:59:51
No, it's-
Violet Grgich:
00:59:52
I, I can't tell you how many people I've seen cry because they've met him. They've told him a story of ... It's just yeah, it's amazing.
Doug Shafer:
00:59:59
No, I've ... You know, whenever I'd run into him, there was always a story. And it's his eyes ... the, the twinkle in his eye. He's just always, you know-
Violet Grgich:
01:00:05
Right.
Doug Shafer:
01:00:06
He's got something coming. And, and he's got ... He has a big birthday coming up, right? Is that pretty soon?
Violet Grgich:
01:00:11
Yes, he does.
Doug Shafer:
01:00:12
I mean, we're talking a hundred? Is that the right number? So-
Violet Grgich:
01:00:15
A hundred. A hundred in about six months.
Doug Shafer:
01:00:17
Wow. Any, any plans? Are we gonna, are we gonna have a, have a parade or something? What are we gonna do?
Violet Grgich:
01:00:25
Actually, parade is a great idea. But we're definitely having a big party.
Doug Shafer:
01:00:30
Great.
Violet Grgich:
01:00:30
Um, and it's going to be at the winery. And we have a lot of, um, very, very excited people to work with us. Um, Chef ... Iron Chef Morimoto will be participating. He is somebody that's been our friend and colleague for many years. They're both immigrants who, you know, learned. They've worked hard. They've been successful but they've never taken their success for granted. They are humble, um, and their passion for what they do and their passion for the people around them is unparalleled. So, he's excited to be participating.
Violet Grgich:
01:01:03
And, um, yeah, lots, lots more to come on that. But we are super excited as, as he. He, he always set the goal of, of at least reaching a hundred. And even at 99, he has lived longer than any of his ancestors or siblings ... which is still a great accomplishment. And of course, you know, when you ask him why he has lived so long, he says, "Wine and woman (laughs)." Not women, woman.
Doug Shafer:
01:01:30
Well, good recipe. I'll have to keep that one in mind. So, bring me up to speed on what you guys are making and selling these days. What, what varietals and how can people find them? What do you guys ... What's the lineup?
Violet Grgich:
01:01:44
Well, we haven't changed too much but we became 100% estate grown in 2003. And as a result added a few new varietals that are available pretty much only through the wineries such as our Petite Sirah. Um, but we're still most famous for our Chardonnay and for our Cabernet.
Violet Grgich:
01:02:01
Um, over the years, we've added special selections, different tiers of wines that are available through a wine club, um, and to visitors who visit the winery. But I love, I love talking or hearing people's stories about our wines because the, the compliment I hear the most is, "I hate Chardonnay but I love yours." And they say the same with our reds. They say the same of our Zinfandel. It's because our style, we've managed to keep our style. Our style is very subtle, very elegant, very food-friendly, very balanced. It is not a wine that tastes like anyone else's. That's why it's different.
Violet Grgich:
01:02:42
You know, wine styles have become much more homogenized. People are all shooting for that 100-point score. We are shooting to make wines that make you want more.
Doug Shafer:
01:02:52
Right.
Violet Grgich:
01:02:53
And that make you want more not just after two or three sips but at the very last end of the bottle or glass.
Doug Shafer:
01:03:00
Exactly. Well, you're-
Violet Grgich:
01:03:01
And that's not easy.
Doug Shafer:
01:03:03
Well, your dad and your team, they've always made, you know, if I had to use one word for, for the Grgich Hills wines, I would use the term elegant. The wines are just elegant, elegant and flavorful. I mean ... And you can count on that. And that's, that's big. That's big for all of us.
Doug Shafer:
01:03:18
So, Violet, this has been fantastic.
Violet Grgich:
01:03:22
It is.
Doug Shafer:
01:03:22
Great, great, great stories, things, some things I've never heard before. So, thank you for sharing everything today. Really appreciate your time.
Violet Grgich:
01:03:31
Oh, you're most welcome. I appreciate your time as well. And it's always fun to talk about my dad and our family story.
Doug Shafer:
01:03:37
You take care and we'll see you out there and happy, happy end of harvest. See you around.
Violet Grgich:
01:03:43
Sounds great. Thanks, Doug.
Doug Shafer:
01:03:44
Thanks, Violet. Bye-bye.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
00:00:00
Hey everybody, welcome back. It's Doug Shafer for another episode of The Taste. Uh, today wel- welcoming a fellow Napa Valley vintner with a very similar story to mine. Uh, he worked with his parents who founded a family winery and he took over the reins. Um, the CEO and president of the famous Schrams- Schramsberg Winery, Hugh Davies. Welcome, Hugh.
Hugh Davies:
00:00:23
Doug, great to be with you today, um, and, uh, here in Napa Valley on a, on a, you know, kind of a pleasant July day.
Doug Shafer:
00:00:30
It's beautiful out there, and I was thinking about you last night, um, trying to think about first time we met. And I think, correct me if I'm wrong, I think the first time we met was probably playing city league basketball at that high school on a Sunday night, th- way back when. Is that, is that probably-
Hugh Davies:
00:00:47
Didn't you, you had like the contraption on your knee-
Doug Shafer:
00:00:49
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:00:49
... That, well, you know, if you ran into the guy, you might actually bang your own knee, 'cause it had, you know, some knobby parts on it or something?
Doug Shafer:
00:00:57
Yeah, that, uh, that was, you know, I, I pretended I had knee injuries, but I just wore that on purpose 'cause guys like you were a lot-
Hugh Davies:
00:01:00
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
00:01:01
(laughs) You were a lot faster than me, so when drove by me-
Hugh Davies:
00:01:03
Well you can, you can, you can-
Doug Shafer:
00:01:03
... I just kinda give you a little knock.
Hugh Davies:
00:01:04
You'd just give him a little knee and it might actually slow the guy down.
Doug Shafer:
00:01:07
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:01:09
Like, "Hey, I don't wanna hit that thing again."
Doug Shafer:
00:01:10
I remember that, I, uh ...
Hugh Davies:
00:01:11
Um ...
Doug Shafer:
00:01:12
That actually is funny you brought that up. I remember I had a, at first I had knee problems in high school basketball and I had these old, horrible braces back then. And they were, yeah, there was metal sticking out, and I remember the ref stopped the game one time, he said, "You can't wear that. You're gonna, you know, make people bleed." So the had to tape it all up, all, all the metal. There's a-
Hugh Davies:
00:01:30
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
00:01:30
... A side n- there's a side note I haven't thought about in about 40 years. Anyway, um, glad you are back on the podcast. Uh, you, Schramsberg, incredible story that goes back over 150 years. I think one of the oldest wineries in the valley, you know, and your family has built that legacy into something that's really amazing. Uh, a lot to cover. There's you, your folks, and all those stories, but I think we have to go back to the 1860s, back when some guy named Jacob Schram, who lived in St Helena, got the idea to plant some vines and, um, go from there. So, give us some of that history.
Hugh Davies:
00:02:06
Um, the, the Davies part of the story began in 1965, but as, as you indicate, the, the Schramsberg story goes back to 1862. Uh, one of the first wineries in Napa. Uh, Jacob and Ana Schram, uh-
Doug Shafer:
00:02:32
Oh.
Hugh Davies:
00:02:33
... Founded Schramsberg in 1862. Said to be the second bonded winery in Napa Valley. Uh, we know that Schram, uh, or Schram, we've, I, I grew up saying Schram, but he-
Doug Shafer:
00:02:45
Mm-hmm.
Hugh Davies:
00:02:46
... Ah, would've worked with, um, Charles Krug, ah, at Charles Krug, which started the year before. And, as m- our understanding is that the two of them actually worked with Agoston Haraszthy, who's the Hungarian, uh, winemaker over Buena Vista in Sonoma, said to be the first bonded winery, 1857. And so a couple of German immigrants, you know, connected with a Hungarian. They, they started m- making a little bit of wine in Sonoma that, that, that moved to, to Napa. Uh, and then, in Schram's case, up here onto what we think of today as the d- into the Diamond Mountain district of Napa between St Helena and Calistoga, up in the hills, uh, on the west side of the valley. Um, we know that at a peak, Schram was producing, you know, what we would think of today in terms of nine liters cases, but maybe 10,000 nine liter cases, 100,000 bottles, that type of thing.
00:03:55
Um, it would've all been, we believe, made from fruit grown here on the e- on the estate, if you will. The, uh, the family had a good run and, uh, unfortunately it did come to an end for them and for the second generation of that family. In the, the teens, Prohibition was, was looming and then there was this root louse, phylloxera, that kinda ended the party in that, that earlier era, which, which must've been pretty, uh, pretty devastating for, for people in, in Napa, Sonoma.
Doug Shafer:
00:04:50
Yeah, 'cause it, it, it, uh, it definitely put a damper on the whole industry, without a doubt. And, uh, I remember b- being up there years ago, and, you know you guys have s- you guys have those great caves, and those date right back that, those date, date back to the original owners, right, the Schram family?
Hugh Davies:
00:05:06
Yeah, so the caves here, they are, they are definitely a unique feature of this property and, and I, you know, as far as caves go, you know, th- there are, there are definitely caves around, you know, wine country here in the north Bay, but these are, are some of the more interesting caves. The, the first, uh, we believe, 12,000 square feet of underground caves were, were dug with picks and shovels back in the 1800s.
Doug Shafer:
00:05:32
Wow.
Hugh Davies:
00:05:32
Which is amazing, uh, that they did that work. The soil here is not soft. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
00:05:38
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:05:38
It is hard, volcanic, uh, ash and, um, you know, honestly, the look and feel of the caves hasn't even changed that much over the subsequent 100, 150 years. Uh, you still see the marks of the picks and the, you know, the, the axes that would've been used to, you know, peck away at the, at the walls.
Doug Shafer:
00:06:01
Wow.
Hugh Davies:
00:06:02
And it's, you know, just like one little chink at a time, ah, they would've, of gotten it done. Um, so we've added on to those caves. If you were to visit Schramsberg today, y- you'd see more. But, uh, it is, it is pretty unique that, that aspect of it. I remember as a kid, just the, the three, the three caves, you know, there with two portals, and then there was one side cave off to the side.
Doug Shafer:
00:06:25
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:06:25
Um, and they were mostly empty. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
00:06:28
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:06:29
They're not empty anymore, right. Uh, and we've had to, we had to dig more caves to put more bottles. But, uh, once upon a time, you know, there was plenty of room for the, uh, the bikes and the skateboards.
Doug Shafer:
00:06:40
Yeah, I was gonna say, I bet you guys were running around, riding bikes and skateboards. Yeah. That makes sense. Perfect.
Hugh Davies:
00:06:45
There's still a little bit of that, but it's harder. There, there's, uh, yeah, there's just a little more activity, probably, than there once was, um ... as we've gradually grown and as the world has gotten bigger too, right.
Doug Shafer:
00:06:59
Right, right. And back in that day, they had a celebrity guest. A, a famous author, Robert Louis Stevenson, and so you guys, you got some Schramsberg got some, or Sch- the Schram gang got some early, early PR in his book.
Hugh Davies:
00:07:15
So that's im- that is impressive. Um, you know, for the, the RLS fans, but honestly, you know, y- you think all these years later, that woulda helped them, uh, build their brand. You know, to, to, uh ... You know, it's well and good to make a fine wine, but (laughs) selling it, as you well know-
Doug Shafer:
00:07:33
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:07:34
... That's not necessarily, ah, easier than, ah, than making it. And so, at that time, it must've been really difficult, like no visitors would come, uh, there, you know. The, the, the market for these fine California wines, um, well it didn't exist in, until people started to make it, and, and then, uh, would've, uh, had to work pretty hard to, to get some attention around, around the country, around the world. Ah, but when then a very famous author, Robert Louis Stevenson, writes the Silverado Squatters, uh, ultimately he became such a popular writer, that that would've helped. I think it helped more like 10 years later, 'cause it was actually 1880 that, uh, he wrote Silverado Squatters and, and spent his time here in, in Calistoga and Napa and l- with, that whole with the Schrams. And then, uh, Treasure Island and Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, those books came a little later, more like I think '83, 4, 5, something like that, 1883, '84, '85.
Doug Shafer:
00:08:41
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:08:41
And then, I think it was around 1890 ish-
Doug Shafer:
00:08:46
Mm-hmm.
Hugh Davies:
00:08:46
... That Stevenson actually dies, and so, um, in those 1890s is my understanding, is when, when that, that, that business kinda, for, for those that were doing it, you know, the Beringers, the Krugs, the, the Schrams, et cetera, uh, it went pretty well.
Doug Shafer:
00:09:02
Well, yeah, that was, I've had some other folks on talking about that time period. Um, it's true, the late 18, yeah, 1890s, that's when kinda, it was, uh, it was a pretty good w- wine boom here. And this is, you know, prior-
Hugh Davies:
00:09:09
Pretty good wine boom.
Doug Shafer:
00:09:13
Yeah, prior to Prohibition, it was really going.
Hugh Davies:
00:10:17
But thankfully, we, we're, we're still here, we're still making wine and, and, uh, uh, it doesn't feel like we've missed too many beats.
Doug Shafer:
00:10:24
No, you haven't. And, uh, since people are probably not gonna run out and read that book, The Silverado Squatters by Stevenson, but he does, he does have a great description of, uh, Napa, Napa's wines in that book, and it's just two words, and it's called, "Bottled poetry." And, I mean-
Hugh Davies:
00:10:48
"And, and the wine was bottled poetry."
Doug Shafer:
00:10:50
Yeah. "The wine was bottled poetry."
Hugh Davies:
00:10:51
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
00:10:51
I mean, that was what he wrote back in the 1800s and one could argue, you know, you could use that as a tagline for your own business today. I mean, it speaks volumes. It's pretty cool.
Hugh Davies:
00:11:14
Uh, it is approximately 100 pages, so it's a pretty quick read. It's interesting to, to get a, a feel for what life might've been like at this stage, what, 140 years ago-
Doug Shafer:
00:12:38
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:12:38
... Here in, uh, here in our backyard.
Doug Shafer:
00:12:40
No, that's a good tip and it's such a quick read. People should, if you're really into Napa Valley history, sh- guys should check that out. It's, um, you're right, we can have it delivered by drone. And, um-
Hugh Davies:
00:12:49
There you go.
Doug Shafer:
00:13:53
So, it's rolling, Prohibition hits, winery shuts down, and then we jumped forward in time to your mom and dad, Jack and Jamie Davies. Where did they come from? What's their story? How the heck did they get to Napa Valley?
Hugh Davies:
00:14:17
Yeah, so, um, and I, if I remember correctly, didn't your dad, was he raised in the Midwest?
Doug Shafer:
00:14:24
Yeah, Chicago.
Hugh Davies:
00:14:25
Chicago. So my dad was born in Cincinnati, but really was only in Cincinnati for two years, the f- the, so before he was aware of anything, his, his parents had moved to, uh, Chicago. And so my dad was in Chicago up until about '37, uh, 1937, I'll say. Uh, he was born in '23, and so, you know, kind of, you know, early high school, mid high school, his age, his family, like some other families in the Midwest, uh, pick up and drive to California-
Doug Shafer:
00:15:00
Wow.
Hugh Davies:
00:15:00
... Uh, drive to southern California. Uh, it's crazy to think you could go to, uh, at, at this point, Beverly Hills, California (laughs) and-
Doug Shafer:
00:15:09
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:15:09
... You could like buy a house, you know.
Doug Shafer:
00:15:11
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:15:11
It was, it seemed like a, you know, better opportunity than, uh, what they might've had in, in, uh, in Chicago. And, and, you know, we, we could just pick up stakes and move out there and, and start over and a- and afford to be able to do that. Granted, different time.
Doug Shafer:
00:15:25
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:15:26
Um, so, so he would grow up in, uh, what was Beverly Hills then, a little different than would be the Beverly Hills today.
Doug Shafer:
00:15:34
Mm-hmm.
Hugh Davies:
00:15:35
Uh, and then was a World War II vet. Uh, then, through the GI Bill, went to Stanford. It's crazy, my dad went to Stanford and had a Harvard MBA. Um, I'm sure there are few, few people out there with those stripes, but, uh, yeah, w- well educated guy.
Doug Shafer:
00:15:50
Mm-hmm.
Hugh Davies:
00:15:50
And then ended up in San Francisco. He was working for, um, a business consulting firm, uh, McKinsey, which is pretty well known and regarded, still existing, you know, with, with kind of international, uh, offices, but including San Francisco as a base. And so that's what he was up to. Um, my mom, meanwhile, was born and raised in Pasadena. So, as a kid, both, both sets of my grandparents, you know, down in southern California. And so my mom, she goes to UC Berkeley, uh, and then in, uh, in late 50s, '59, at this point, she is, um, up and running with a gallery she and a friend s- out of, out of Berkeley, started selling paintings of, uh, you know, young, uh, you know, California painters. So she's on Broadway with her gallery, kind of more, you know, towards the, you know, North Beach. Uh, you know, a little bit in the late 50s beatnik era, and my dad, meanwhile, is on Montgomery Street, um, you know, as the business consultant. And their paths crossed, they married six months after they met, they just hit it off.
00:17:14
And then in their young married life, started a family and, and came up with this idea that, that, uh, they wanted to do their own business. And th- that they friends that were s- dabbling a little bit with wine, a little bit with restaurant activity, uh, that, that piqued their interest. They invested in a, a winery called Martin Ray Vineyards.
00:17:39
Uh, and then, a couple years into that, by '65, they had, uh, they had crafted their own, you know, their own plan, and that was to make a sparkling wine, traditional method. You gonna use Chardonnay, we're gonna Pinot Noir, we're gonna do it like they do in the Champagne district of France. Um, they had scoped out, you know, places in Napa, Sonoma, et cetera. And, and there were numbers, you know, these older winery properties, that, that it were just kinda hanging around, that hadn't been active for a good long time.
Doug Shafer:
00:18:16
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:18:17
You know, 50, 50 years had passed between the Schram period and then, we'll say, the Davies period. But anyhow, they were led to this property, Schramsberg, by a realtor, uh, Ned Smith, uh, the caves, "Hey I got a place for you."
Doug Shafer:
00:18:31
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:18:31
We, there's a place up, uh, towards Calistoga, it's got these old caves and, and-
Doug Shafer:
00:18:36
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:18:36
... That'd be great. Like 'cause you wanna do the bottle fermented sparkling wine, you could stick the bot- ... It's like in Champagne, right, but here in, in California.
Doug Shafer:
00:18:43
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:18:43
And they saw this place and, and that, that was it. You know, the h- the hook was set. Uh, and here we are, 57 years later, still, still going.
Doug Shafer:
00:18:53
I gotta ask you, any idea, I'm sure you've p- probably shared a few at some point, why he went sparkling. Because, you know, at that time, you know, table wine was just starting to kinda get going, you know, in the 60s and 70s, again. And so, you know, even taking it further out there with sparkling wine to your typical, you know, American consumer, who was probably not really even sure what wine is. Sparkling, did he have a, a, a wild idea? Was it to be different, um, was there just a love of Champagne from France? Any idea?
Hugh Davies:
00:19:30
Yeah, no, the, uh, great question. And, and, and, you know, the answer is, uh, is, is a bit multifaceted, but, first and foremost, they liked sparkling wine. I think, they, they, they enjoyed the, you know, kinda the fine Champagne that they had had a chance to taste and be exposed to. Again, living in San Francisco, you know, a little, little bit of exposure, at least in their circles, to the, you know, the fine wine and cuisine, and so they, they, they were bitten by the bug. So they, they liked the style, but they also liked the idea of doing something that nobody else was yet doing, uh ...
Doug Shafer:
00:20:04
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:20:04
You know, I can hear my dad talking about n- the niche. You know, and again, he was, he was a marketing consultant, and, and so in his mind, you know, if, if they could carve out a unique niche, um, you know, th- they could live in that niche. Like, future generations could live in that niche. You know, if we were the first to do something that, that, that might ultimately resonate. But to your point th- while there wasn't much of a market for, for wine in general. Uh, y- most American households just, just didn't, didn't do wine, right? It, it wasn't-
Doug Shafer:
00:20:36
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:20:36
... It wasn't something that, that happened. My parents, uh, didn't come from families where people drank wine around the dinner table. That, that didn't happen. Um, but they, they got the bug, and then they, they thought, "Well, we could, we could go for it. We could be the first people to really do the, the bottle fermented sparkling wine." And then once they saw this place and, you know, I j- I just think the pieces just really came together around that idea for them. They were encouraged by people they met. Folks like Andre Tchelistcheff would've been a- a- around. Uh, he was a, you know, kind of an early, uh, c- consultant, if you will, a little bit, on the project. His son, Dimitri, uh, you know, worked really more formally with my parents for, for a number of years in the early going. Um, the, the Mondavi brothers, you know, initially at Charles Krug, later Robert would, would move on. But that was another, uh, you know, c- connection that they made, uh, early as, as they were, you know, you know, kinda planting the seeds to get this thing going. The folks at UC Davis, my parents give them a lot of credit for helping them figure out how to, um, h- how to, how to do it. How do you make this stuff (laughs) right?
Doug Shafer:
00:21:46
Right, right, right.
Hugh Davies:
00:21:47
What, uh, what's this? Well we gotta get the yeast going and then-
Doug Shafer:
00:21:50
Yeah. (laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:21:50
... We gotta, we gotta put some sugar in the wine once we've made it, and then it's gotta go to a bottle and how do we m- how do we get it so that it actually finishes-
Doug Shafer:
00:21:57
Right. (laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:21:57
... The fermentation? And how do we get every bottle to taste, you know, pretty much the same, too. That's a, you know, that, we need to be consistent, right?
Doug Shafer:
00:22:06
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:22:06
Um, we've gotten better at this. I will say that-
Doug Shafer:
00:22:09
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:22:09
... Over 57 years. But, yeah, it would've, it would've, uh, it would've been kind of crazy, uh, to, to do.
Doug Shafer:
00:22:17
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:22:18
Uh, I really, I mean, I've got a ton of respect for, for not just what my parents would have, have done, but, you know, that, that ear- you know, the earlier era of winemaker because they, they were, um, they were starting from scratch, right.
Doug Shafer:
00:22:33
Right, right.
Hugh Davies:
00:22:33
They (laughs) really, they were starting from scratch.
Doug Shafer:
00:22:36
No, the learning curve was big. I mean, uh, I was here pretty early on with dad and, you know, he was getting good help from neighbors and stuff, but, man, you know, even the folks who were like the pros were still kinda green, um, 'cause it's just kinda-
Hugh Davies:
00:22:50
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
00:22:50
... How do, how do you do it? I mean, you know, I remember, ar- you know, not just me, some of my peers in s- in the early 80s, you know, we're just trying to make decent wine that it wasn't gonna blow up in the bottle. You know, and that's not even thought these days. I mean, we've g- ... Not that we have it down-
Hugh Davies:
00:23:05
No.
Doug Shafer:
00:23:05
... But, you know, we have it down compared to 30, 40 years ago. So, you know, back then it was-
Hugh Davies:
00:23:09
Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
00:23:10
... Even the same thing. But, you know, I, I didn’t your dad well, but I, I r- I ran into him a few times, um, but he was (laughs) one sharp guy, and your mom too. Delightful. But, um, I figured he was doing that whole, uh, let's grab a niche and, and make it ours with, uh, doing the sparkling wine. So, kudos. Kudos, kudos.
00:23:31
So, they come up here, they've got two, t- you got two brothers. You were born. When were you born?
Hugh Davies:
00:23:39
I was born in '65, September of '65.
Doug Shafer:
00:23:42
Okay.
Hugh Davies:
00:23:42
Uh, so they, I was born after that first harvest, um, and they would've been up here ... Frankly, my mom was pregnant when they moved, with me, when they moved in to the house and, you know, formally started the, the, the effort. Um, and-
Doug Shafer:
00:23:57
So you're, so-
Hugh Davies:
00:23:58
... They brought in some part, but-
Doug Shafer:
00:23:59
I gotta interrupt you. So you're like, I think you're the only true Napa Valley person I've had on this show. You're the true Napa Valley native, man. We're all-
Hugh Davies:
00:24:09
Born.
Doug Shafer:
00:24:09
The rest of us are all outsiders.
Hugh Davies:
00:24:09
Born and raised.
Doug Shafer:
00:24:09
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:24:11
Born and raised. It is crazy, if you think about it, and I sometimes do, um, so mom and dad, you know, they l- they leave the hospital, uh, to take me home, and they, they bring me to the house where I still live. Crazy, right?
Doug Shafer:
00:24:49
Wow.
Hugh Davies:
00:24:50
Uh, so I'm, I'm now 56, living in the house that was, you know, really the first house that I ever knew.
Doug Shafer:
00:24:56
There you go.
Hugh Davies:
00:24:57
Um, I have moved away and done a few things. Not for, not for too long. (laughs) Yeah, but, yeah, life's good. I like it here.
Doug Shafer:
00:25:05
Now, it must've been crazy for you, for your folks. I mean, starting that out, you got three, three little kids. Um, how did they, did they ever talk much about, was it just crazy or they just did. And, uh, I'm assuming it wasn't a burden. It was more of a passion, is, is what I'm guessing.
Hugh Davies:
00:25:22
For them?
Doug Shafer:
00:25:22
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:25:22
Yeah, they, they, I, they loved every minute of it. I would say they probably didn't love every minute of raising the three boys.
Doug Shafer:
00:25:30
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:25:30
(laughs) So th- I'll actually qualify, uh, the statement, um, and I can hear them talking about the teenage years being particularly challenging, especially when all three of us were teenagers. By the time Bill's turned 20, I think it started to get a little better. Um, but, yeah, we're four years apart, four boys, so I think, you know, the year when I'm 15, my brother John 17, and my brother Bill's 19 ...
Doug Shafer:
00:25:59
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:26:00
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
00:26:00
That's trouble.
Hugh Davies:
00:26:00
That was-
Doug Shafer:
00:26:00
That's trouble right there.
Hugh Davies:
00:26:01
Yeah, that's trouble. That was probably trouble right there, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
00:26:03
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:26:03
I think what they really, really loved and, and maybe they, they, they thought it was gonna happen like this, I don't know, uh, but they, they loved the camaraderie, uh, that, honestly I, I believe still exi- ... Here you and I are sitting here talking about, you know, how our parents made wine, you know, uh, once upon a time, and, and that's what we still do. Um, it's, um, they, they loved being part of this community. Uh, they loved, uh, working with other members of the community and I, I'll extend it beyond that, but, you know, they, kinda the California, you know, wine community to, to build, uh, not only their individual brands, you know, their, their, their, you know, to cr- to build followings for their, their, their individual wine portfolios, but I feel like for, for that generation, maybe more that ours, or, or maybe we're still, we're still right there, I think for, uh, th- to, to some extent we're all still right there. We need, we need our wine's to come from a region that's, that means something, right?
Doug Shafer:
00:27:10
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:27:10
Uh, in order for, for, for all of us to, to really be successful in it. And, and I, there was a quote that my dad would always use, um, that was a Robert Mondavi quote. Uh, he was, uh, he was, he needed to get Chardonnay and, my dad did, to do the Blanc de Blanc. All right, so year one, 1965, we need Chardonnay, 'cause you can't make a Blanc de Blanc without Chardonnay.
Doug Shafer:
00:27:35
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:27:35
Um, that's the way they do it in Champagne, that's the way we're gonna do it. And th- they're, at the time, they're like 200 acres of Chardonnay in the whole state, that's it. Ah-
Doug Shafer:
00:27:43
Oh.
Hugh Davies:
00:27:43
... And so, and he wanted Chardonnay. He finds some, uh, uh, some Riesling, so that, that's, he's got a buddy who's got a, a, uh, a Spring Mountain vineyard with some Riesling on it. Riesling more planted than Chardonnay, as you well know, in 1965. And so, ah, but the suggestion was, you know, talk to the Mondavis down at Charles Krug, th- they might, they might hook you up. And, and again, my dad, uh, wouldn't need a, a lot. Uh, and so he's able to arrange a deal to trade the Riesling grapes for, uh, what would be a, a small tank of Chardonnay wine. We didn't have a tank up here either, or the cooling capacity, so they did it at Charles Krug. And so that first, the '65 Blanc de Blanc was actually made in a, a, this, uh, 500 gallon tank down at Charles Krug Winery. And, uh, my dad would like tell the story of how he arranged for that deal, the trade of the Riesling grapes for the Chardonnay wine, and Robert said, "Jack, you're, you're, you're crazier than I am, you know, to want to get into-"
Doug Shafer:
00:28:44
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:28:44
"... This sparkling wine business, but I tell you what. If you succeed, we'll all succeed."
Doug Shafer:
00:28:50
There you go, yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:28:52
And, and, and he meant it, right. He meant it. And, and, and I really feel, you know, that was, when I watched my parents, you know, as the five year old kid, the 10 year old kid, the 15, 20 year old kid, whatever, um, their best friends, they were all these guys and gals that they, they worked with here in, in Napa. Those are the people that they, uh, they wanted to spend their time with. That, those were the people that they really en- enjoyed and they, and they were all part of this team working to build, uh, an, an industry where, where there kinda had been one (laughs) right, before Prohibition. But it, but it needed some work, right, in, in the, in the 60s and 70s to, to, to get going. It always needs work, but that w- that w- that was cool.
Doug Shafer:
00:29:35
It was v- it's very cool. And that's, that's how it, you know, that's how we, I think, as a industry, local, locally California and Napa and Sonoma and other great areas, have gotten on the world stage, 'cause we all helped each other out. And, um, I was thinking about it as you were talking about your, your dad doing sparkling wine, kinda, you know, the old world way, the real way. And do you think he was aware that because, you know ... So he, you guys were the first but a lot of people followed. I mean, there are a lot of sparkling wine producers in California, and don't you th- you think, do you think he kinda started it?
Hugh Davies:
00:30:12
Well definitely, I mean, there, there, Hanns Kornell was here, Korbel was here, uh, before my parents would start, but not doing the Chardonnay and the-
Doug Shafer:
00:30:20
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:30:21
... Pinot Noir like the guys in Champagne. So there, there was a little bottle fermented sparkling wine, but like o- you know, it, it, the, the varietal wasn't, um, that important yet. Uh, while there was more Riesling grown than anything else in Napa, uh, there was more Chablis made, right. (laughs) So I don't, I know that doesn't make sense to everybody, but that, that was the world that we lived in, right.
Doug Shafer:
00:30:43
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:30:43
Chablis was white wine.
Doug Shafer:
00:30:44
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:30:44
That's it.
Doug Shafer:
00:30:44
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:30:45
And Burgundy was red wine, and, and it just so happened that we just, we had a lot of Riesling planted, and so that would go into the white wine.
Doug Shafer:
00:30:51
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:30:51
And then, um, yeah, th- th- there were, there were, th- there were people that were, were starting to, to go for, for more specificity. And ultimately, then it was like, no, it's not only Cabernet, but it's Cabernet from this one vineyard-
Doug Shafer:
00:31:10
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:31:10
... And that's worth bottling. Um, and, and, and, uh, you know, obviously vintage played a role. There was a time when vintage wasn't important. Uh, but for my parents with their sparkling wines, uh, from the outset, it was vintage dated sparkling wine. They didn't wanna just make sparkling wine, uh, a, a, a more generic Brut, right, they wanted to make a vintage dated sparkling wine. And so, uh, while not everybody jumped onto that bandwagon, it wasn't that far into the future from their, their launch, '65, uh, that they would get the knock on the door from the, the folks at, uh, uh, Moet Hennesey, right, or, I guess it w- probably was more formally at that moment, uh Moet et Chandon.
Doug Shafer:
00:31:53
Mm-hmm.
Hugh Davies:
00:31:53
And they, um, they were interested in, you know, kinda bailing my parents out (laughs) and buying the winery-
Doug Shafer:
00:31:59
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:32:00
... And, uh, let's go. Um, Nixon has gone to China, right, and there was the, the historic Toast to Peace in '72, and, and Schramsberg Blanc de Blanc had been served and there was, there was a moment and, and, um, so I j- I just remember my parents, I mean, b- it's an early memory for me, I wasn't even six at the time, but, th- you know, wow, these guys from like Moet, they, they're, they were, they were here, they wanted to buy the place. Well they should come, they should come here-
Doug Shafer:
00:32:26
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:32:27
... To Napa and they should make sparkling wine too, right.
Doug Shafer:
00:32:30
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:32:31
And they did. I mean, '73, boom, very next year. Chandon, uh-
Doug Shafer:
00:32:34
Chandon. Domaine Chandon.
Hugh Davies:
00:32:36
... Starts, and-
Doug Shafer:
00:32:37
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:32:37
Domaine Chandon starts. And then beyond that you have the, you know, other French would come, Roerderer, and Mumm, and, Tattinger, et cetera, uh, still here. So we have, uh, we have a, a pretty significant, uh, group of French Champagne producers making traditional method bottle fermented sparkling wine, you know, Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, et cetera, here in, uh, in California as well. And then there are others beyond that, that, that, uh, there are some, uh, French, or Spanish producers. Freixenet would come, starting Gloria Ferrer.
Hugh Davies:
00:33:07
It hasn't always been easy, I'll tell you. You know, it really hasn't. It, it does feel like the last, uh, 10 ish years have been the best, uh, more, more demand, more demand for, for what it is that I think collectively we're doing in the sparkling category. But I know that like none of this, any success that we might be having today, ah, you know, it, it wouldn't have been possible had not the, you know, and obviously in my case, my parents-
Doug Shafer:
00:33:55
They.
Hugh Davies:
00:33:55
... Uh, jumped into this saying-
Doug Shafer:
00:33:57
They, they did it.
Hugh Davies:
00:33:59
... Saying, "Yeah. We, we're-"
Doug Shafer:
00:34:00
They starting the ball rolling.
Hugh Davies:
00:34:00
"... Gonna make it."
Doug Shafer:
00:34:00
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:34:00
(laughs) We're gonna make it. We're gonna make it. Uh, the 90s were pretty tough. I think that was a, a moment when, and both my parents were alive at the time, you know, th- the, uh, a number of the French producers had come to California. Um, you know, we're, we're trying to push the, the, the price up and make it more premium and vintage date, and like l- let's, let's compete directly with French Champagne. And there, there was a moment when the demand was picking up through the mid 80s and then, and then it softened for the category. And unfortunately, it softened for the category at the time that more, more product was being produced. Um, not everybody was doing it, you know, but, but enough o- of us were that, uh, it w- it was, it was tough-
Doug Shafer:
00:34:51
It was tough.
Hugh Davies:
00:34:51
... Through the 90s.
Doug Shafer:
00:34:51
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:34:53
W- we were saved, uh, momentarily by the, the whole millennium, uh-
Doug Shafer:
00:34:58
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:34:58
... Moment.
Doug Shafer:
00:34:59
Yeah, there was lots-
Hugh Davies:
00:35:00
Seriously. I w- I ...
Doug Shafer:
00:35:02
... Lots, a lotta Champagne and sparkling wine sold at that, that year too.
Hugh Davies:
00:35:05
Up to that point, that was by far the best year that we ever had.
Doug Shafer:
00:35:08
(laughs) Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:35:09
And it was a good year. Like we had a good year, (laughs) we actually made a little bit of money. We had, we had never, uh, we had never even touched it before that. N- nothing like that. And, um, I will tell you that it was two years after my dad had passed away, and, you know, some people around, uh, were not as confident, I will say, as, as my mom, um, in the abilities of the next generation. And they probably had good reason, (laughs) I'll say there, they probably had good reason to maybe be a little suspicious. Um, and so, you know, our dad passed in '98 and, and things had, you know, we'd kinda j- just had a relatively tough stretch in there. That, that didn't help.
Doug Shafer:
00:35:51
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:35:51
And, um, the next thing you know, we have our best year ever.
Doug Shafer:
00:35:53
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:35:54
So, I think the, uh, the planets were lining up to give us, uh, the m- the millennium year, because it became a really good year to sell sparkling wine.
Doug Shafer:
00:36:03
Good, good. Well, you know, jumping back to the, your first few years here, your dad got involved in something here locally in Napa Valley, which we really haven't talked much about on, on the podcast. It comes up once in a while.
Hugh Davies:
00:36:15
Mm.
Doug Shafer:
00:36:16
And that's, that's what we call locally here, we call the Ag Preserve. And this was-
Hugh Davies:
00:36:20
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:36:21
... This was a really big deal, and this was in the late 60s, you were probably a two or three year old little boy so you don't remember any of this, and it was before I got out here. But your dad was a, a big proponent of it, and one of the major driving forces. And the result of the Ag Preserve, which I'd like you to explain to us, which if you don't mind, is it-
Hugh Davies:
00:36:42
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:36:42
... Really helped keep this valley green and in vines, especially the time when the wine business wasn't necessarily that successful to keep it that way. And, uh, so a few folks like your dad made this thing happen, and it's helped keep Napa Valley what it is today, as far as the beauty and the focus on agriculture. But can you give us a quickie on the Ag Preserve? I think folks would like to hear that.
Hugh Davies:
00:37:09
Yeah, no, thanks, uh, for asking. I, and I think it's just one of those key building blocks in the, in the, the, you know, the story of, of Napa that, that is, uh, not particularly understood or, you know, it, it's, you know, we, we just kinda take it for granted, right, that the, that the land is still here. But as a backdrop for my parents, uh, you know, growing up in, in Los Angeles County, they saw a tremendous change. (laughs) Right, I mean, the LA County, in the year that my dad was born, um, number one ag county in the state of California. Uh, you don't think of Los Angeles County for its agriculture, a- and nor have, you know, generations, right. It, it, it changed that fast. But for a moment, that's what you had there. Uh, Orange County, nicknamed after an orange. I mean, it, the, it, it is-
Doug Shafer:
00:38:00
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:38:00
... It is what it is. Uh, my dad would go to college in the, the, the late 40s at Stanford, right. So he's down there near, near Santa Clara Valley, and at that time, the Santa Clara Valley was, uh, was the number one, you know, agricultural, you know, county in, in the, you know, in the Bay Area. Um, and very productive, successful. Obviously things have changed there as well, and would change pretty quickly through the, the 50s and 60s. Um, and so as my parents would come to Napa with this idea of the, hey we're gonna do this bottle fermented sparkling wine and it's gonna be awesome, um, how could they be sure that there would still be vineyards here in 20, 30, 40 years without something to protect them? Because clearly what was happening in some of these other areas was that those, those, those lands were, were, were just, uh, they were getting paved over. And so, uh, there were others in this community that were similarly concerned. Not everybody agreed, uh, but this concept of a agricultural preserve was established.
00:39:18
And so this a zoning that is attached to much of the land today between the city of Napa and the city of Calistoga. Where you see the, you know, the vineyards, you know, between Napa and Yountville, or, and, and then the vineyards between Yountville and St Helena. Similarly, the vineyards, uh, between, uh, St Helena and Calistoga and just north of Calistoga, those lands are all in this agricultural preserve zone. Uh, minimum parcel size today, 40 acres. You can't subdivide, unless it was subdivided beforehand, into less than 40 acre parcels. That's a pretty good size parcel. You can have only one home per 40 acres. You can't do, uh, commercial or industrial activity on those lands. And so on one hand, uh, it has given us this opportunity to preserve the land for, for the purpose of al- agriculture. It, it calls the, the, the highest and best use of the land to be for agriculture. And, and then on the other hand, that, that did limit the opportunity for people to develop the land however they might want have to done that.
Hugh Davies:
00:40:35
So it's, uh, limited the private property rights of all these individuals that, that have land in this agricultural zone, uh, but our community has embraced it. You know, I think it's a testament to the camaraderie and, and collective spirit that exists here to grow grapes and, and make wine. And it, and it takes that. If you go to Burgundy, if you go to Bordeaux, you know, if you go to Rioja, we'll say, you know, if, if you go to Tuscany, you're going to, you're going to see a, a, a similar, uh, you know, kind of collective spirit to work towards, uh, creating a wine growing region. And so we're, we're lucky that, that, that our predecessors, uh, planted those seeds for, for the industry, that, that obviously have, allow us continue to be here today.
Doug Shafer:
00:41:31
Exactly.
Hugh Davies:
00:41:32
Um, beyond the Ag Preserve, there's the ag watershed zoning, which is, you know, it's a much larger area. The, the preserve itself I think is 33,000, you know, I'm rounding up a little bit-
Doug Shafer:
00:41:42
Mm-hmm.
Hugh Davies:
00:41:42
... Acres, uh, but you include the, all the again watershed lands, uh, that go into the hills, and it's 160 acre minimum parcel sizes, and, and that's, that's a lot of, of, of Napa County.
Doug Shafer:
00:41:55
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:41:55
And so we've, we've got what we got and, and I, I for one am, am really thankful for it and, and, you know, kind of proud of that, that, uh, that legacy, if you will.
Doug Shafer:
00:42:06
Well you should be. He was, he was a, a, a great proponent of it, and we all, I think, most of us here appreciate it and, and realize how great it's been to have that. But at the time, it was incredibly controversial, um, because you're, some people, you know, you're giving up some of your property rights to develop your own land, and, um, it was, it was a, a heated debate, and, um, but your, your dad was one of the guys making sure, you know, it went the right way. So, so thank goodness for him. So that was right when he got here and he's starting a winery, and then you're growing up. I'm assuming you went to my alma mater, St Helena High School?
Hugh Davies:
00:42:49
I went to, uh, schools, I went to the public school system through eighth grade.
Doug Shafer:
00:42:54
Okay.
Hugh Davies:
00:42:54
And then I went away to a private high school actually.
Doug Shafer:
00:42:56
Got it.
Hugh Davies:
00:42:56
I think my parents (laughs) thought it-
Doug Shafer:
00:42:57
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:42:59
... Then again, maybe it was part of that teenage boy thing-
Doug Shafer:
00:43:01
Ah yeah, I, I ...
Hugh Davies:
00:43:01
... But both my brothers ended up as St Helena High School, but I, uh, I went to a boarding school in Carpinteria, California.
Doug Shafer:
00:43:09
Okay.
Hugh Davies:
00:43:09
So I had this, this fairly early, uh, unique experience that was in Santa Barbara County.
Doug Shafer:
00:43:18
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:43:19
Uh, you know, closer to the ocean and, and, um, it was good. I, I really, I went there all four years. Uh, sometimes I'm surprised I, I, I was able to, to (laughs) make it all the way to the finish line, but, hey-
Doug Shafer:
00:43:31
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:43:31
... Got there.
Doug Shafer:
00:43:31
You got there.
Hugh Davies:
00:43:31
Got there, got a badge, right, got my diploma.
Doug Shafer:
00:43:37
You got it.
Hugh Davies:
00:43:37
Went on to college and, and, you know, life, life continued. But it was, uh, it was a good experience for me.
Doug Shafer:
00:43:41
Good.
Hugh Davies:
00:43:41
I've remained throughout that time, uh, close to, you know, all the, the kids that I grew up with here and, and retained a lot of the ties that I started with, uh, going back to before I ran into you playing basketball, uh-
Doug Shafer:
00:43:58
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:43:58
... You know, down at the high school.
Doug Shafer:
00:43:59
So tell me coll- post high school. Where'd, college?
Hugh Davies:
00:44:07
So I went to a place called Bowdoin College in Brunswick, Maine.
Doug Shafer:
00:44:07
Right. I got it.
Hugh Davies:
00:44:08
Uh, and so I, you know, again, you know, did another, you know, private college, small college. Um, this was, it's about as far away from Napa as (laughs) as you can get-
Doug Shafer:
00:44:22
As you can get.
Hugh Davies:
00:44:22
... In the United States. But coastal again. I, I like the idea of being on the coast. My parents encouraged me to go to New England to go to college, so I-
Doug Shafer:
00:44:31
Huh.
Hugh Davies:
00:44:31
... We did a college tour, I saw, uh, I probably saw a dozen colleges, along with my brothers. I think I was a freshman, uh, in high school at the moment when they took us back to see some colleges. And so I liked the rural, I liked the, the Maine and, and so I did study, um, history, uh, US history. Uh, I actually, one smart thing that I did when I was there was I, I started up with Spanish language. So my minor was in Spanish.
Doug Shafer:
00:45:06
Oh great.
Hugh Davies:
00:45:06
Uh, I did economics, but the Spanish became a, a pretty key piece for me. I ended up doing a semester in Spain, uh, later in Lima, Peru. And as it turns out, that's a good language to learn if you wanna be in the wine business-
Doug Shafer:
00:45:21
Yep. Yep.
Hugh Davies:
00:45:22
... Here in, in California. That was probably (laughs) that was a good move. I did do, uh, a, uh, internship with a congressman in DC. I then worked for a land trust in San Francisco for two years, back to the land preservation idea, I thought that was pretty cool-
Doug Shafer:
00:46:13
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:46:13
... And, and so, maybe somewhat inspired. I did, uh, two years working for a, a nonprofit, uh, entity called the Trust for the Land that, that does, uh, uh, real estate transactions to protect lands. And then, that got me to my mid 20s and, and I started thinking maybe the wine thing isn't such a bad idea. And, um, so I eventually went to UC Davis, did a masters degree in winemaking. And it's probably right in there that I woulda ran into you, uh-
Doug Shafer:
00:46:41
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:46:42
... Uh ...
Doug Shafer:
00:46:42
I was gonna ask you that. 'Cause you grew up, you know, in a wine family, um, so there's wine-
Hugh Davies:
00:46:46
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
00:46:46
... On the table every night, more or less, and, uh-
Hugh Davies:
00:46:49
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
00:46:49
Like s- a lotta other folks, so-
Hugh Davies:
00:46:51
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
00:46:51
... Was the wine bug always there or not really or did something happen, you know, in the, your college years or 20s where, the, you know, the light bulb went off. Or is it, or is it more of just an evolution?
Hugh Davies:
00:47:06
I had this idea of doing the, the conservation work, and then, the land preservation work, and then, um, honestly, early 90s it was tough to make a living doing that.
Doug Shafer:
00:47:25
Mm-hmm.
Hugh Davies:
00:47:26
Um, I, um, I started feeling a little bit uncomfortable, uh, with the idea that, uh, I might not actually be at the winery.
Doug Shafer:
00:47:40
Huh.
Hugh Davies:
00:47:40
You know, I started thinking about it, and so there was a moment I r- I honestly, I had like my mid-life crisis in my m- early, mid 20s, just com- just not sure what the hell I wanted to do, right. I mean, it's the-
Doug Shafer:
00:47:52
(laughs) That sounds pretty normal though, man. (laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:47:52
People start bugging you when you're like 13, they're like, "What are you gonna do, huh?"
Doug Shafer:
00:47:56
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:47:56
I dunno. Uh, so I'm 23 and I still don't know for sure.
Doug Shafer:
00:48:00
Hm.
Hugh Davies:
00:48:00
Uh, 24, and then, uh, l- long conversations with dad a- and, and mom, but they're so patient, right, they just said, you know, in, well into my 20s, you know, I'm, I'm still sitting there at the, uh, at the dinner table, trying to figure it out. And, um, so we came up with this idea that maybe I could be the wildlife biologist or research, uh, you know, uh, uh, scientist, you know, on, on, you know, the preservation side of things, or maybe, just maybe, I might get into winemaking. Okay, okay.
Doug Shafer:
00:48:30
(laughs) Uh, yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:48:31
And so, we don't have to decide yet, but we do need to start doing biology and chemistry and physics either way we're going, right.
Doug Shafer:
00:48:38
Right. (laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:48:39
And so it was, it was kinda like, okay, okay. So I, honestly, at that point, I came home, I went to, uh, Santa Rosa JC. Uh, this is, you know, here's a guy who's already got his bachelors degree and, you know, from a fine college and, and seemingly everything, uh, going for him, but, hey, you know, it's, uh, I swallow my pride, I'm gonna go to the JC, and I'm gonna take, um, biology and, and chemistry and physics. And so I do like a year of these classes, and it goes great.
Doug Shafer:
00:49:04
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:49:04
Goes great. I'm, you know, right up there, top of the class, and, uh, it was in that time, granted I was home too, um, you know, I had, I- I- I'm gonna go to, I'm gonna be a winemaker. You know, I th- I think my friends helped convince me too. They were like, "You, dude, you got, you got a great opportunity."
Doug Shafer:
00:49:23
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:49:24
So, I applied at Davis, and, uh, I ended up working at Mumm Napa. I did a, a stint at, uh, Remy Martin in Cognac. That was pretty cool. Uh, Moet et Chandon, back to Moet, in, in Champagne. That was pretty cool.
Doug Shafer:
00:49:38
How fun.
Hugh Davies:
00:49:39
A place called Petaluma in Australia. So I did like some winemakers might do, you know, the, the, the stage you know, uh, uh, internship type experiences. Um, so I did about four of those. And after that, I was done. I had my master degree, I'd done my experiences and, uh, I was 30. I was 30 when I came back to Schramsberg in 1996.
Doug Shafer:
00:50:02
All right. And, and, uh, so how did that go with your folks? I'm s- I'm assuming they were excited and happy and-
Hugh Davies:
00:50:09
Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
00:50:10
... Over the top.
Hugh Davies:
00:50:11
(laughs) absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
00:50:11
Good.
Hugh Davies:
00:50:12
They loved it. They were, I mean, I think that they were my biggest cheerleaders.
Doug Shafer:
00:50:16
That's great.
Hugh Davies:
00:50:17
I s- I, uh, they're not here. I still feel like they're cheering, uh, really. My wife, she's pretty good too.
Doug Shafer:
00:50:23
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:50:23
And my kids.
Doug Shafer:
00:50:24
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:50:24
Yeah, they, they were so excited for ... In the end I was the one, I've got two brothers, and I was the one who said, "All right, man. I'll do it. I'll do it."
Doug Shafer:
00:50:36
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:50:36
And, and, and not a minute too soon, because, as I said earlier, my dad would pass away in '98. That wasn't part of the plan.
Doug Shafer:
00:50:43
Oh, that's, that was quick.
Hugh Davies:
00:50:45
That was not part of the plan, right. It never is. And then, um, and I was 32. So, oh, you know ... A little bit of a-
Doug Shafer:
00:50:53
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:50:54
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
00:50:54
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:50:56
And then, and then, um, with mom, we, we would move on and, uh, uh, the business, and, and, uh, you know, that f- that one millennium year was good. The, the, the next couple years actually was, were, were not. (laughs) The, the 9/11 thing was every bit as bad-
Doug Shafer:
00:51:11
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:51:11
... For business for us as the millennium thing was good. And, uh, but we stood our ground and, and the from there, it just, the thing seems to have rolled in, in a lot of positive ways and, you know, build on it, you know, the, the earlier, uh, efforts and, uh, yeah, we're, I'm thankful.
Doug Shafer:
00:51:30
No, that's great. And, and right about that time, early 2000s, I think I remember, I remember this was, it was big news to me. It was like Schramsberg's planting Cabernet. They're gonna make a Cab. I s- and I was like, "What? Come one, no. They're sparkling. I don't want any more competition. (laughs) Hey, what're you doing?" So what was, uh, what was the thinking behind Cabernet?
Hugh Davies:
00:51:50
The Cabernet, um, you know, the, the genesis of that, frankly, you know, the first discussions probably go back to the late 80s, um, and I really credit our Schramsberg wine making team at the time, uh, there was a guy named Allen Tensure, Dan Goldfield, I don't know if you've crossed their paths.
Doug Shafer:
00:52:10
Mm-hmm.
Hugh Davies:
00:52:10
But, they were, we had started to do some Carneros fruit, right, in the-
Doug Shafer:
00:52:16
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:52:17
... In the mid 80s. All right, and the, so we're a little further south in the valley, close to the Bay. Ah, well it's a little later the, uh, harvest season down here. This, this fruit actually, uh, has slightly riper flavor, even at the same sugar level. The acidity's notably higher. That's nice. We don't have to add acid to this stuff.
Doug Shafer:
00:52:36
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:52:37
Huh. Um, and so as we kept pressing forward, uh, we, we were, we were starting to realize, you know, '92, we were up in the Anderson Valley trying a little bit of the fruit up there for the sparkling. We weren't the first, right, I did-
Doug Shafer:
00:52:50
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:52:50
... Pretty good-
Doug Shafer:
00:52:51
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:52:51
So we, really I think the winemakers were the first ones to say, "We should do something else with the, the, the vineyard th- property that we have here on Diamond Mountain." And, and it wasn't my parents initial vision, for sure, uh, but I think they, they eventually would come around to realize that, yeah ... Uh, the market might not get it, but we're, we're seeing the results here inside the winery that our, that our, our better Chardonnay and Pinot results are, are not the ones coming off of the home property.
Hugh Davies:
00:53:25
And so we would then, uh, start to explore. Dad said, "Well, we're not just gonna, uh, you know, r- roll over here. You guys have gotta do some experimentation." So we have, we've had as many as, I think, 11 different red table wine varieties planted on this property. Um, for me, fun in '96, we started to make the, the Cabernet Franc and the Merlot and the, uh, the Malbec. Obviously, there's Pinot Noir, there's Pinot Meunier. We had, uh, Zinfandel, we had Syrah, we had Cabernet Sauvignon. We were looking at these, these different varietals and, and making very small batches of them to try to figure out, you know, which was gonna emerge as the leader. And, and obviously not surprisingly, by that time, we, we pushed a little further, uh, Cabernet seemed to, to emerge as like the best choice. And so, maybe counterintuitive to what other people would be thinking, 'cause we were the sparkling wine guys, uh, it made, you know, all too much sense to, to, to plant Cabernet here.
Hugh Davies:
00:54:23
And so we would produce our first Estate Cabernet, uh, Estate Diamond Mountain Cabernet, in 2001. With my mom, we launched the, the, the brand, would sell that wine in 2004. Uh, we called it J Davies Cabernet, named after my dad, Jack. So we have the J Schram named after Jacob Schram, here the J Davies named after Jack Davies. And, uh, away we've gone.
Doug Shafer:
00:54:47
Yeah, that's great.
Hugh Davies:
00:54:47
We've, we've got a winery in St Helena, we've, we do Pinot Noir as well, we do a little range of Cabernets, a little range of Pinot Noirs, and, and it's, uh, it's been exciting. You know, it's a 20 ... It's crazy, that first replanting was 28 years ago.
Doug Shafer:
00:55:00
Wow. Well, you, what you guys did was parallel to a lot of us around here. W- as we got into it, we realized, you know, um, certain grapes do better in certain s- areas of the valley, and not as well as other places. So it's b- it comes right down to, you know, plant the right grape in the right place. And, uh, you know, I remember, we used to, we had originally had 10 acres of Chardonnay here on our home ranch, here at, at the, at the, where the winery is in Stag's Leap. And it was okay, but it's a lot better Cabernet land, than Chardonnay land, so, um, and that's just been evolution for all of us. Plant the right grape in the right place. So, that's nice.
00:55:37
And you mentioned 2004. Um, I think that's when you guys got, Monique got married? Is that right?
Hugh Davies:
00:55:47
2004, we, we got married, uh-
Doug Shafer:
00:55:48
How'd you guys-
Hugh Davies:
00:55:49
... 2004. It ended up being also the year that our family hosted the, we were like the host family of the Auction Napa Valley-
Doug Shafer:
00:55:56
Oh that's right, that's right.
Hugh Davies:
00:55:57
... Or Napa Valley Wine Auction.
Doug Shafer:
00:55:58
How'd you guys meet?
Hugh Davies:
00:56:00
Uh, so that-
Doug Shafer:
00:56:00
Monique and you?
Hugh Davies:
00:56:00
... That also happened.
Doug Shafer:
00:56:00
What's, what's her story?
Hugh Davies:
00:56:02
So Monique, uh, she's great. Uh, she, she also grew up in Napa Valley, uh, a few years younger than me. Uh, sh- I grew up in St Helena, in your, you know, and, and she was more Napa. Um, the, uh, so we didn't cross paths until, uh, the, the 90s. And then we were, yeah, we both just kinda, uh, uh, looking (laughs) looking for love. I don't know. Looking for somebody-
Doug Shafer:
00:56:31
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:56:31
... At about the same time in 2002. And we met, we, uh, kind of, um, connected, I guess, if you will, a little bit w- on a, on a Napa Valley vintner tour, uh, which I'm sure you've done a few of those.
Doug Shafer:
00:56:50
Mm-hmm.
Hugh Davies:
00:56:50
I've probably done one or two of them with you.
Doug Shafer:
00:56:52
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
00:56:52
But you, where you travel around. And, and, uh, this one was, uh, Oklahoma and, and Texas, and, um, you know, great, great, you know, fun, you know, as you get, get the, you know, the gang from around the valley together to go out and promote what we do. And so she was, she had worked at Joseph Phelps for quite a few years, 13 years in total. And then it was during that time that, uh, you know, we, we started to, uh, date one another and, uh, a couple years, uh, we got married and started a family, and, and our first son was born in 2005.
Doug Shafer:
00:57:24
So you guys, you got four boys, I think that's right. And, you know, the two of you are doing kinda what your parents did. You're balancing family, work at the winery, traveling. What's it, what's it like? Is it a flash to your, what your folks did? Um, what are the joys, what are the challenges? How do you guys, how do you do it?
Hugh Davies:
00:57:46
Um, put one foot in front of the other. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
00:57:49
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:57:52
That's a corny one, and it probably came from my dad, I would imagine.
Doug Shafer:
00:57:55
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:57:56
You know, like "How do you do it, dad?" Uh, "Yeah, you just put one foot in front of the other and-"
Doug Shafer:
00:58:01
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
00:58:01
"... And keep, keep going forward." Um, but I think you have to have plans. You know, you have to have a, some kind of a vision for where you're wanting to go. I think some of level of flexibility is also important, you know, where y- where you might realize, oh, that wasn't such a good idea. Okay, you know, we, that's okay. We can, we, we can allow ourselves to, to, to make some mistakes and then, and then fix them, right. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
00:58:42
Right.
Hugh Davies:
00:58:42
And honestly, sometimes the, the, you know, the, the fix might, might lead to another opportunity that would be a positive, we tried to, uh, enjoy life, uh, despite the fact that, you know, we're on all the time. Um, we live right here at the winery. The, the winery lives right here with us. It's 24/7. Uh, there's not a whole lot of time where you're not, you're not thinking about the business and, and the, and the future and, and the past, or what have you.
00:59:30
I just feel lucky. I mean, I, how many of us get to work so hard at something just means so much to us, right? Uh, uh, you know, the product that we make is something that we really can enjoy, that other people can really, really enjoy. It, it means something to people, you know, that, they, they, they've, they've celebrated, you know, uh, great moments of their life with this, this darn product that, you know, you, we, we pour our hearts into making. It's good, like that, that's, that, that, that'll lift you for a long time. Um, the, um ... So you just try not to let, uh, the fact that you seem to be so focused and energized, uh, all the time, kinda overwhelm. And it, it is hard to step away, because you're here all the time.
Doug Shafer:
01:00:23
Right.
Hugh Davies:
01:00:23
But where are we? Ah, we happen to be living up on this hill.
Doug Shafer:
01:00:28
(laughs)
Hugh Davies:
01:00:32
And at night, you know, you hear coyotes and, you know, you might see the odd deer run around, uh, or little rabbits or foxes. You know, we've got bird feeders and, you know, all kinds of, you know, wild birds come, uh, buzzing around the house. Uh, we've got a pond the kids can, you know, fly off the rope swing. And, um, you know, we, we, we, we live well. I, I, I've, I mean, of a- I, of all the places that I, I could possibly live, I'd say this has got to be pretty, pretty good. So I, I think on, I realized all those ... For me, like back to the mid-20s, early 20, that, that moment where I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do. Um, I kinda crossed that, a lot of bridges, all at once. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
01:01:11
Mm, yeah. You did.
Hugh Davies:
01:01:14
And figured, this as good as it, this is good as it's gonna get. And I, and now I've just been trying to live every minute and, and hopefully, um, you know, it lasts for a good, long time.
Doug Shafer:
01:01:42
We, s- sometimes we forget about it, you're so wrapped up in something and, you know, in the office, but, you know, just like you, I can walk, there's a door 10 feet away, I walk out and go another 20 feet and I'm in the middle of a Cabernet, hillside Cabernet vineyard. Take a nice little walk.
Hugh Davies:
01:02:02
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
01:02:02
(laughs) And it's like, if that doesn't calm you down, nothing else will, so we'll-
Hugh Davies:
01:02:06
And pretty soon you'll be able to go out there and taste those grapes, right?
Doug Shafer:
01:02:09
Yeah, yeah. They're getting ... Yeah. I'm looking for some color.
Hugh Davies:
01:02:10
They're not, not right now.
Doug Shafer:
01:02:10
Not yet, little, little tart. Little tart.
Hugh Davies:
01:02:15
Actually I don't want them to, to, to change color quite yet. I'm happy for that, for that-
Doug Shafer:
01:02:22
I know, 'cause it always seems like, oh it's two weeks away. No, you got to, you got some time.
Hugh Davies:
01:02:25
Eh ...
Doug Shafer:
01:02:26
Um ...
Hugh Davies:
01:02:26
We got some time.
Doug Shafer:
01:02:28
Well thanks, man. Tell me about your current lineup, Schramsberg and J Davies. So what are, what are you guys offering now? Uh, what, what different flavors?
Hugh Davies:
01:02:37
Yeah, so, I, I know that we've, um, you know, we've kind of crossed the line. I can hear dad saying that, you know, you don't wanna get distracted and do too many different offerings, right. It's, uh- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
01:02:48
That sounds like something my, that sounds like my dad. These, those two guys were a lot alike, I think.
Hugh Davies:
01:02:53
We have, yeah about 30. Um, and, and why would we ever have so many? Part of what we've and I feel that, that's been successful for our particular winery is we've developed, uh, uh, in developing a great consumer fan base, um, we have, we've been able to, to kind of help build that by, by virtue of having a wine club. So a wine club where, where people take their quarterly shipments. And, and so, you know, years in advance, as you well understand, you know, making wine, making premium sparkling wine, I, we, we sell some of these wines that they're 10 years old. We're releasing, later this year, a 2004.
Doug Shafer:
01:03:37
Oh wow.
Hugh Davies:
01:03:37
That'd be 8, 18 year old sparkling wine. Let's go, right.
Doug Shafer:
01:03:40
That's great.
Hugh Davies:
01:03:41
And, and some of our fans, they can't get enough. They love ... I can't get enough. So, you know, I l- I love it too. But we, as we've developed that fan base and as we want to keep that club audience, uh, engaged and excited, we have to continue to present them with, you know, kind of cool, new iterations of-
Doug Shafer:
01:04:01
Okay.
Hugh Davies:
01:04:01
... Of, of these, of this range of Brut styles that we make. And so we have, uh, we have uh, uh, about 15 different sparkling wines th- that we produce. You have to have 10 to do a, a wine club.
Doug Shafer:
01:04:16
Okay. Okay.
Hugh Davies:
01:04:20
'Cause you need- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
01:04:20
I get it.
Hugh Davies:
01:04:20
To cover, to cover all the shipments for the year, you need 10.
Doug Shafer:
01:04:20
I got it.
Hugh Davies:
01:04:20
Uh, I, I can't just give Blanc de Blanc, you know, 10 bottles at a time and, and call it good. Well, I didn't think good. So we, we make this cool range, Roses, Blanc de Blanc, Blanc Noirs, you know, those are kind of the three iterations of, of sparkling that we do. But inside of that, there are late disgorged versions, extra Brut versions on those themes, specific vineyard versions, pretty cool.
Doug Shafer:
01:04:39
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
01:04:40
Uh, but meanwhile, on the Cabernet and Pinot Noir side, the Davies side, that's where we get up to 30. We've got another 15 or so, uh, specific vineyard Pinots, specific vineyard Cabernets, and, and some iterations along those themes that we're also, uh, producing, and, and, uh, that we've developed. We talked about, the, the first one in that set was our J Davies Estate Diamond Mountain Cabernet, so that was a 2001 vintage. So here we are, uh, uh stepping up to vintage number 22-
Doug Shafer:
01:05:08
Yeah.
Hugh Davies:
01:05:09
... Of, of commercial red wine production. And, um, uh, so those are not as widely available in terms of, you know, c- uh, c- commercial availability through the stores and restaurants. The Schramsberg portfolio or some, some, some of the items in that portfolio really have great distribution. We really appreciate the, the wholesale partners. There's a company called Wilson Daniels who we've worked with for a lot of years to, to, to build a national network. And so you, we, we've kind of done it on th- th- those two sides. With the reds, a little more DTC, but we're working on the, the wholesale side as well, and it's exciting. I, I feel there's a really bright future. I, I've, I've always, always felt that. I guess I'll always feel that way.
Doug Shafer:
01:05:48
Oh, I th- I think that, I think you're right. I, I f- I see it too. So, that's fanta- ... What a great lineup. Um, so if folks wanna get ahold of them, y- what's your, what's the best way? And I'm assuming you guy have a good website.
Hugh Davies:
01:05:58
Well, simply you could go to the Schramsberg.com-
Doug Shafer:
01:06:03
Okay.
Hugh Davies:
01:06:03
... You know, website, right. So S-C-H-R-A-M-S-B-E-R-G, uh, that's the name of the, you know, the, the, there's a, there's a Davies site as well, D-A-V-I-E-S. Um, uh, a, a portion of the range is, is available throughout the, you know, the, the restaurants in the country, throughout, you know, many restaurants in the country, and, uh, and stores as well. Um, we hit 50 states, you know, not too much in some of the smaller ones, uh, and we hit probably about 30 countries. But again, uh, with more limited, you know, on a much more limited basis overseas. But, uh, yeah. We're, we're excited to keep trying to, to build it and to e- extend it.
Doug Shafer:
01:06:49
Good. Good news, good news. Great story, great family story, a real key part of the, kinda the re ener- energiz- energization, is that a word, uh, of the Napa Valley-
Hugh Davies:
01:07:44
(laughs) True.
Doug Shafer:
01:07:44
In this m- in this modern era, which is now 40 or 50 years old. But, um, s- thanks so much for your time. You, you take care. Say hi to everybody.
Hugh Davies:
01:07:52
Hey, will do. Best to you, Doug, and your family. Bye bye.
Doug Shafer:
01:07:55
All right, man. Take care. Bye bye.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
00:00:00
Hey everybody. Welcome back. It's Doug Shafer with another episode of the taste. Today, we've got, uh, John and Rory Williams, father/son team running a well known, very successful long-term family winery here in the Napa Valley, Frog's Leap. Welcome guys.
John Williams:
00:00:17
Hey, Doug (laughs).
Rory Williams:
00:00:19
Hey, Doug. Thanks for having us on.
Doug Shafer:
00:00:20
You bet. Rory, I think I first met or saw you as a little kid at some soccer game or elementary school with my kids, or probably riding shotgun in your dad's pickup truck a million years ago. Well, not that long ago.
Rory Williams:
00:00:35
I think I was probably driving him home from a restaurant, you know, at five years old.
Doug Shafer:
00:00:38
There you go. There you go. And, John, you know, I can't... I, I was racking my brain last night, I don't remember when we met. I just, I know you were pals with my dad. You guys were both Cornell alums and, you know, Rory too. But our paths have crossed for all these years, but I really, you know, remember spending more time with you back in the late '80s when you introduced me to Amigo Bob, uh, which we'll talk more about that later. But, hey, can you remember when we met? Any ideas?
John Williams:
00:01:08
You know, I was thinking about it as well, Doug, and I, I really don't. Obviously it, it kind of folded in with your, your dad and I were such buds and was on Vintner trips together and hanging out with, uh, some of the other characters of that era. And, uh, yeah, but then our, um, you know, our kids were, uh, were growing up at the same time. So it's all kind of, uh, tumbled up in there. Um, you know, I, I, I remember as you started getting involved, uh, with the winery that, uh, there was certainly a little more interaction at that point. But, uh, I, I think it just unfolded over time, basically.
Doug Shafer:
00:01:48
Yeah, it's just we've, we've grown up together. I'm not gonna say we've grown old together, but we're just (laughing), we're still, we're still growing together. But, you guys, thanks both of you for doing this. Uh, I've been looking forward to doing this for a while. Um, a lot to cover, John. There's your story, the story of Frog's Leap. Rory, I know there's a lot to your story. We'll get to that in a bit, so it's gonna be fun. But before we start with John, we, we had a, uh, something happen here. Uh, Rory, you're nice to be wide awake. I don't know if you're wide awake 'cause I heard you didn't get much sleep last night. What, what happened last night?
Rory Williams:
00:02:23
Kind of a late frost, it was pretty crazy. Um, it got cold here in Rutherford. Um, we were up at 2:00 in the morning and frost fans were on. We turned water on, it was a, it was a busy night for sure. Nothing extremely dangerous here in the Valley, but I know that in some of the outer valleys, Chiles Valley, Pope Valley, it was, it was cold.
Doug Shafer:
00:02:45
Yeah.
Rory Williams:
00:02:45
Um, and these are kind of, these are kind of the days of killer frost. You get one now, there's not much, not much you can do to come back from it, so.
Doug Shafer:
00:02:52
Yeah, I'm with you. We, we haven't talked about frost on this thing, which is, uh, you know, I think we try to get too techie, but normal frost is-
Rory Williams:
00:02:59
That's generally a good thing if you're not talking about frost (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
00:03:01
Yeah, exactly.
Rory Williams:
00:03:02
No news is good n-, good news.
Doug Shafer:
00:03:04
But normally by early May, which is, is right now, you know, frost season has passed the danger. But we had a cold one last night and, uh, some people, fortunately not John or me anymore, but (laughs) the younger generation has to get up at... So, Rory, you were up at what? 1:00 or 2:00?
Rory Williams:
00:03:20
2:00 in the morning. Um, everything was, uh, starting to get cold. So I dragged myself outta bed and start to check machines, turn on machines, make sure everything's working. Uh, you know, normal frost night stuff and, uh, look forward to the nap in the, in the morning (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
00:03:37
Got it. Do you, do you actually go home and nap or some... I know some guys just sleep in their trucks (laughing).
Rory Williams:
00:03:43
Right now I, I, I get better than a nap. I get to go home and, uh, make my two-year-old breakfast. Uh, and so it's (laughing), which is a way of waking up, I suppose.
Doug Shafer:
00:03:53
Oh, man. That brings back memories. Oh, man. All right, well, listen, I'm gonna, you know, hit your dad early here. So take a, take a little snooze here for a minute if you want. Um-
Rory Williams:
00:04:02
Sounds good. I'll catch you guys before you know.
Doug Shafer:
00:04:04
(laughing) Because you, you de-, you deserve it. Um, all right John, you, we start with you. Now, I know you're from New York and if I've done my research right, I think you grew up on a dairy farm in New York, right?
John Williams:
00:04:17
Well, that's a little bit of a controversy. I, I, I got farmed (laughing) out from my family, uh, uh, regularly every summer, uh, down to my grandfather's dairy farm.
Doug Shafer:
00:04:25
Okay.
John Williams:
00:04:25
My, uh, dad was smart enough to get outta dairy at some point and got into other things that didn't make any money. Uh, but, uh, yeah, I spent a lot of time on my grandfather's dairy farm. So that's where, that's where that story comes from. And, uh, uh, you know, it, it certainly instructed me, uh, and I grow, grew up in agriculture, that's for sure.
Doug Shafer:
00:04:44
Yeah. And, uh, family, you got brothers, sisters? We've never had this chat.
John Williams:
00:04:49
(laughing) Yep, brother and two sisters to, you know, Ralph and Alice, uh, mom and dad. Uh, very typical, rural, um, family, background for sure. Uh, church and, uh, and community and school and, uh, and that's about it.
Doug Shafer:
00:05:05
What part, what part of New York? What town?
John Williams:
00:05:09
Chautauqua County's the little corner of New York over, uh, by Lake Erie. In fact, Erie, Pennsylvania is the closest city to where we grew up. But there's a little ski resort there and our farm was right above and right below the ski resort, and it's all dairy country. And, uh, now a lot of Amish, uh, it's a very depressed, uh, area, but most of my family still lives in that, in that area of the country.
Doug Shafer:
00:05:29
Okay, all right. How about wine? Was that part of the, the household beverage at that time?
John Williams:
00:05:33
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
00:05:34
Why are you laughing? Come on. That's a good, it's an honest question (laughs).
John Williams:
00:05:37
Yeah. Yeah. Um, we were, uh, my family didn't drink and, uh, considered, uh, sin against God to drink as a matter of fact. So I did not grow up with much of a wine background. But, you know, it is a grape country, and so, uh, my first job actually was with Welch's grape juice. And, in fact, a communion and the church was not wine, but, uh, grape juice. It was a, uh, it was a sad state of affairs as I later came to realize (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
00:06:14
And, uh, so high school was back there. What were, what was, what were you doing in high school? What were you into?
John Williams:
00:06:20
Well, you know, it was a small school. I think there were 54 kids in my class, and so you were everything. And so, you know, you- you're in the band, you're in the chorus, you're in the student council, you're in the, uh, debate society. You're in, you play every one of the sports just 'cause they wouldn't have enough kids on the team, otherwise (laughing). Uh, you know, it was just, uh (laughs), it was a, a, you know, Ozzie and Harriet, basically. It was a, it was an old school.
Doug Shafer:
00:06:45
Neat, neat. And, uh, ended up right to Cornell after high school. Is that how it went?
John Williams:
00:06:51
Yeah, I was really fortunate. I was a good enough student, I guess, but not a brilliant academic. But I, uh, uh, had a guidance counselor who believed in me and, um, and uh, decided I was gonna go to Cornell almost. I mean, my family didn't really have those kind of aspirations, but I got a scholarship to go to Cornell University and, uh, never really been out, out of the area. Certainly was a revelation because when I enrolled at, uh, Cornell, it was the time of the whole, uh, civil rights movement. It was the time of the Vietnam War protests. It was a lot of experimentation with things that I (laughs) would've not considered otherwise in Clymer (laughing).
00:07:29
And so it was a, it was a, uh, it was a real eye-opening experience for me and brought me into a, a whole different world. And then, of course I, I ran outta money after my first year and had to get a, uh, a job. And, uh, that's when I got the work study program with the Taylor Wine Company, which was my first introduction to wine. So all this happened in a very short period of time and was the fundamental, uh, change in my, uh, my, uh, life decisions, I guess you would say.
Doug Shafer:
00:07:54
So you're working at Taylor, what were you doing at the Taylor Wine Company?
John Williams:
00:07:59
They had a program with the university, uh, where you could, um, I was essentially an intern, but I worked in every department in the... This, uh, Taylor at that point, was a family owned winery making, uh, god awful wines from Concord and Catawba and Niagara, the Labrusca varieties, which they were very proud of. But, uh, they're only made palatable by bringing in large tankfuls of wine from California out of the Central Valley to blend with these Labrusca varieties to make them somewhat, uh, palatable, very sweet.
00:08:26
And, and this was my introduction to wine so, uh, (laughs), you know, it was right up there with Boone's Farm and Ripple, I'm afraid, um, some of these wines. But, uh, I had no idea at that point. I discovered fairly shortly afterwards that there were better wines made in the world and it didn't take me long to incorporate those into my, uh, into my life.
Doug Shafer:
00:08:44
Hey man, don’t knock Boone's Farm, that was, that was my first wine (laughing). That was on back, back in the summers on the beach in Michigan.
John Williams:
00:08:50
Oh, there you go bragging again, Shafer (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
00:08:52
Yeah. Oh no, man. We, people have heard this story. Boone's Farm was the go-to. Well, lock, along with a lot of beer. This is summers in Michigan, but if you wanna impress somebody like a, a, a girl, um, you got a bottle of Mateus 'cause they had that really cool bottle. That was the, that was, that was, that was-
John Williams:
00:09:10
Oh, yeah, yeah, no, I kept one in my room and it had the little dust on it claiming it was one of the last smuggled out. It never worked, but I always thought of it (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
00:09:18
I'm surprised we haven't had the same, this conversation before we got similar paths (laughing). So, so Taylor Wine Company, so is that when the wine bug kicked in? Is that what happened?
John Williams:
00:09:30
Well, I dunno if you've ever been to the Finger Lakes there, but the, you know, the, the vineyards cascade right down to these beautiful lakes and the little communities. And then the going to this big winery with big tanks of booze and pretty girls giving tours and not a cow in sight. And it didn't take me long to raise my hands saying, "I think I can do this." So it was a fundamental, uh, life changing path. It was really that moment, you know, your aha moment.
Doug Shafer:
00:09:53
Uh-huh, so you, did you... 'cause I think the next thing I have is, you know, somehow you made your way out to Napa. Was that after Cornell or you just, you just got in a, you know, you just, you know, tell me about getting to Napa? What was that all about?
John Williams:
00:10:03
Well, I worked every other semester of, at the winery and so I worked everything from growers, uh, support to the vineyards, to the labs, to, you know, um, uh, marketing and purchasing. As it was a really arou-, a very interesting experience at a bigger winery. But Cornell didn't have a wine making department at that point. They, they have an excellent one now-
Doug Shafer:
00:10:28
Mm-hmm.
John Williams:
00:10:28
... and Rory can talk about that. But, at that point, the only thing that was close by was actually, uh, a ch-, a dairy fermentation. So I got my degree in cheese making at Cornell (laughing), and don't, uh, don't, don't tell anyone. Um, and, but they didn't have a wine making program. But I, I knew I was gonna get into wine, and of course everything was just starting to happen. Remember that we're talking '72, '73 so Robert Mondavi Winery was just, you know, six or seven years old. All these wineries, uh, were starting up. There was a lot of excitement about the Napa Valley, which I was hearing about.
00:11:00
And so literally in the, uh, in the spring break of, um, the 1975, I got the $69 AmeriPass on the Greyhound bus and, uh, set off for California. And five days later, I found myself in California, um, with, uh, 40 bucks in my pocket. I didn't know anyone, didn't have a job and, uh, I never used the return ticket and-
Doug Shafer:
00:11:22
Wow.
John Williams:
00:11:22
... said, I'm just gonna stay in Napa Valley and make it happen.
Doug Shafer:
00:11:25
Wow.
John Williams:
00:11:26
I'm now $22 million in debt. It's going real good.
Doug Shafer: 00:11:30
(laughing) Oh, man, come on. Stop, stop, you've been super successful and you know it. Um, so you show up, you don't know anybody, had no money. Were you thinking U.C. Davis, um, there's the famous story about, you know, you illegally camping on somebody's property we need to hear about. What, what happened?
John Williams:
00:11:49
Well, I had a, a young woman in my tasting group, uh, Helen Turley, uh, at Cornell and she thought her brother had a place out here. And she didn't have a phone number, but she had an address. So I hitchhiked up from Vallejo on a Sunday evening. And, uh, there was no one at the house, it was abandoned (laughing), uh, and, and, and should be. It didn't, and no one could live there except for me that night. And, uh, but Larry, uh, showed up on his motorcycle the next morning at, uh, I dunno, 6:00 in the morning.
00:12:16
And, uh, fortunately, I had a bottle of, um, of wine in my tent with me and we got into that and drank a couple other bottles and that's when we decided to start a winery together. So that's how I met the, the famous char-, uh, character, Larry Turley, who eventually became my partner in starting Frog's Leap in 1981.
Doug Shafer:
00:12:32
So Helen, so that's where Helen came from. Cor-, she, you met her at Cornell. I never knew that. I never knew she was there. How cool, 'cause she and Larry were brother and sister, so. Okay, so that's how that happened. So you and Larry now, was Larry a doctor at the time or studying to be one? 'Cause I know he was an ER doc for a long time.
John Williams:
00:12:53
Yeah, he was a, he was actually coming off from shift when we met, uh, the next morning. And so, uh, yeah, he was an emergency room physician over in Santa Rosa.
Doug Shafer:
00:13:01
Wow. Okay, so that was the start of your guys' partnership, which we'll get to in a minute. But, you know, what was, what was Napa like back then? And, uh, it was '70 when? 75, you said?
John Williams:
00:13:13
'75 and it was, uh-
Doug Shafer:
00:13:14
Yeah.
John Williams:
00:13:15
... well, you, you know, uh, you, you were, you were around, it was pretty rural (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
00:13:20
Yeah.
John Williams:
00:13:21
There was not much happening here. And St. Helena was unrecognizable to, to in places like Yountville that were just backwaters. And Napa itself, of course, was, uh, not much going on. So it was, uh, it was a distinctly different place. I think '75 was the last year, there were more prunes planted in the Napa Valley than grapes.
Doug Shafer:
00:13:41
Right, right, I do remember that. Um, and so, so you jump in and, uh, it's jumbled for me 'cause I think there's UC Davis stuff, there's working at Stag's Leap Wine Cellars. What, what, how'd you get going those first couple years?
John Williams:
00:13:57
Yeah. Well, I, I managed to talk my way into UC Davis, um, but I didn't have any money so I had to work too. And Larry had some friends who were bottling their first wine, so I get to a job as the first employee of, uh, Stag's Leap Wine Cellars. And uh, so I started at Stag's Leap in ‘75. So I was, uh, working summers and, um, evening shift, uh, during harvest at Stag's Leap, taking classes at UC Davis and sleeping at the Frog Farm. So I had a little Honda 350 motorcycle that got me between all three of these places. And, uh-
Doug Shafer:
00:14:27
(laughs).
John Williams:
00:14:28
... uh, that's how I made my way for about a year until I could get some more permanent housing (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
00:14:34
Wow, wow. That's crazy. So at Davis, were you going, were you just taking classes or were you going for, going actually for a degree?
John Williams:
00:14:42
Yeah, I got my master's degree in '77-
Doug Shafer:
00:14:44
Okay.
John Williams:
00:14:44
... so I was, uh, I was in gra-... I think I, I was probably in graduate school at the same time you were an undergrad, if I, if I remember my timing on this right.
Doug Shafer:
00:14:52
That's about right. Yeah, I was still undergrad and I was there at between '74 and '78, right. But see, by '77 I had decided I wanted to teach school. So instead of taking a lot of upper division enology, I started taking ed psych and all that stuff. So I missed out on some of those. I probably didn't... I don't think our paths crossed then, but I was hanging with some other folks. Who were, who were some of your peers there at the ti- time?
John Williams:
00:15:17
Well, I think you've talked to a few of 'em, uh, John- Johnny Kongsgaard and, um, Mike Martini, and Dick Ward, Dave Graves. Uh, Dan Lee was my roommate, my, uh, my last year there from Oregon Winery.
Doug Shafer:
00:15:28
Right.
John Williams:
00:15:29
Um, you know, the whole, there was a whole group of us, uh, Lee Hudson. Uh, you know, there was a, there was a whole group that have gone on to, uh, uh, to be... And, you know, Cathy Corison was in the lab with me, Tom Peterson. Uh, just a number of that, that, that whole class is really remarkable class of, uh, uh, young people. I, I didn't get to hang out with him as much as I would've liked and that I was, um, you know, I was working, uh, by night and I was doing my, uh, thesis work at Robert Mondavi and I, you know, did it on clarification methods and was using their centrifuge.
00:16:00
So I'd go work in harvest, uh, from harvest we'd clean up 11:00 at night, and so at, um, at Stag's Leap. And then I'd go over to Mondavi and do my thesis work, uh, until about, you know, 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning. And then I'd ride over and, and, uh, you know, uh, do class and then I'd be back over to Stag's Leap. So (laughs) the only time I actually slept was while I was in class, I think (laughing), so I didn't get to hang out as much as I would've liked. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
00:16:28
You were busy.
John Williams:
00:16:28
That was a crazy time.
Doug Shafer:
00:16:30
It was crazy.
John Williams:
00:16:30
Yeah, crazy time.
Doug Shafer:
00:16:30
Yeah, but, but I, am I wrong? Was it just great? Did you just love it?
John Williams:
00:16:37
Oh my god, I, I mean, uh, you know, it was so thrilling and, uh, you know, we, we had a sense of the kind of wines that we could make, uh, in Napa. And, and this whole crew of, of, uh, uh, people like your dad and Da- Dan Duckhorn and, uh, Koerner Rombauer. And, I mean, there was just a whole bunch of us who were, uh, um, you know, excited. Jack and, uh, Jamie Davies were good friends. So it was that whole, uh, movement of time that I kind of got sucked into as well. And I spent as much time with that group as I did with my Davis - but between the, between them all, it really was a remarkable, just unbelievable experience.
Doug Shafer:
00:17:17
It was a, it was a neat time. And really, um, and none of us kind of... I don't think we really realized it, you know, how neat it was. But, um, it was, it was a changer for this valley, for sure. So you're, you're getting outta Davis and then... so I'm thinking you're gonna start Frog's Leap, but I'm doing some research on you. You went back and got a job in New York making wine. right, is that what happened?
John Williams:
00:17:40
Yeah, when I graduated in '77, there were lots of assistant winemaker jobs available here. But I got an offer to, uh, go back and be a startup winemaker, including designing the winery and equipping it and so on. And I thought that that would be great experience. I felt, I guess I had a little bit of debt, uh, back in New York State, uh, my original, uh, time there. And, uh, and I had some good friends like, uh, Herman Beemer who, uh, of course, has gone on to make these fantastic Rieslings. Uh, so I, I knew I could sense the potential. I'd hung out enough with Dr. Konstantin Frank and was inspired by him. And I knew there was potential for great wine there.
00:18:19
Um, and so, uh, had I not met a California girl while I was in New York, I probably, uh, would still be there. Uh, but, uh, when I met Julie, we, uh, decided to, uh, (laughs) our condition of the, of the, uh, agreement was to, uh, move back to California. So back I came in, uh, 1980 to take the head winemaking job at Spring Mountain Vineyards. And that's when Larry and I reconnected and said, "Let's, instead of making illegal amounts of homemade wine, why don't we make the, a, a little wine on our own?" And that's when we started Frog's Leap in 1981.
Doug Shafer:
00:18:50
Okay, so it was '81. So, seriously, um, Frog's Leap, you know, it's, it's is still a kind of off the wall name, so what's the...
John Williams:
00:18:57
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
00:18:58
People, people need to know the story. How did, you know, what did you guys do? Like focus groups and talk to consumers? How'd you do it (laughing)?
John Williams:
00:19:08
Yeah, well, uh, it kind of happened to us. Uh, uh, you know, people say, "How'd you get the name Frog's Leap?" And I had to admit that we'd been drinking. Um, you know, we, we may know we were making-
Doug Shafer:
00:19:18
No, really? I can't believe that (laughing). You two guys, no way.
John Williams:
00:19:21
(laughs) We were making wine. Our first little batch of wine were some grapes. We, uh, at first, well, you need to know that Larry's place, we started fixing it up and, uh, discovered in the process that it had been a, um, commercial frog raising farm. So it, we called it the Frog Farm.
Doug Shafer:
00:19:38
Okay.
John Williams:
00:19:38
And then, uh, you know, we, we got our first, a little batch of grapes. There were six, uh, Chardonnay vines had been misbudded in the, uh, CASK 23, or would've went on to be the, uh, the S.L.V. Vineyard. Uh, that, uh, Warren, I think gave me the fruit and we made a little five gallon jug of wine. And, uh, it was still fermenting one night, but we ran out of other stuff to drink (laughing), so I think we drank something like four of the five gallons.
Doug Shafer:
00:19:59
Oh.
John Williams:
00:19:59
And in an honor of Stag's Leap, where we'd procured the grapes and, uh, the Frog Farm, where we made the wine, someone came up with this Frog's Leap. And we just thought it was hilarious, and, uh (laughing) so we started calling our homemade wine Frog's Leap. And, uh, and then we started selling it. And before we knew it, it was in the New York Times and getting distributors and, and, and we're just like, "Well, wh- wh- what are we gonna do now? We can't call a winery Frog's Leap, but, um, and we're kind of stuck with it 42 years later, I guess.
Doug Shafer:
00:20:30
No, it's been, it's been a great run (laughs). Um, so, so you've mentioned Spring Mountain. So Spring Mountain, that was Mike Robin's own Spring Mountain Winery just, just right, right next to St. Helena. So you got the head winemaking job. You're starting to do Frog's Leap with Larry on the side. Um, Spring Mountain was... Today's listeners will have to go back to YouTube to look it up, but it was the, uh, place where they filmed a TV show called Falcon Crest. Um-
John Williams:
00:21:01
(laughs) Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
00:21:01
So were you there, were you, were you there for all that filming (laughs)?
John Williams:
00:21:04
Yeah, I, I was and, uh, it's, uh, de- definitely part of why I left (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
00:21:10
Oh, no. Yeah, because it was quite the hot show at the time. Wasn't it?
John Williams:
00:21:15
God knows why, but yes, indeed. And, um, it was, um, I, you, you know, as well as I do that, um, and I'll tell one story, is it, uh, when you're bottling, you're nervous as a winemaker. It's only bad things can happen when you bottle wine.
Doug Shafer:
00:21:28
Mm-hmm.
John Williams:
00:21:28
And, uh, we were bottling and, uh, this guy comes in because they had the trailers there. They were filming the pilot for Falcon Crest, and he says, uh, "All this machinery's making too much noise. We're gonna ask you to, um, uh, shut down for wh-, a while, while Ms. Wyman gets her nap in her trailer." And I told her-
Doug Shafer:
00:21:45
Oh, man.
John Williams:
00:21:46
... I said, "Gee, you could tell Ms. Wyman that we're not shutting down the equipment (laughs). Uh, and we- we're bottling wine, and now we're not gonna be shutting down any equipment." In about, uh, uh, 15 minutes later, Mike walks in and says, "Why don't we all take a break for the rest of the day (laughs)?" And, uh-
Doug Shafer:
00:21:59
Oh no.
John Williams:
00:21:59
... that's when I knew I was gonna have to leave Spring Mountain because, uh-
Doug Shafer:
00:22:03
Oh man.
John Williams:
00:22:03
... filming this TV show became, had become more important to the owner than, uh, than making wine.
Doug Shafer:
00:22:09
Got it. And then, uh, we'll get Rory, we'll see if Rory's... We, we gotta wake Rory up here.
John Williams:
00:22:14
I'll wake him up here (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
00:22:15
We'll wake him up. Um, so right now we're, I'm looking at Rory, I think 1984, you burst on the scene. Is that the right year?
Rory Williams:
00:22:23
Yeah, that's what they tell me. Yeah (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
00:22:25
Okay, so first born of John and Julie's, and I think '84, was that the first leap year party also?
Rory Williams:
00:22:32
I think that was the first leap year party, uh, Mustards. Correct, if, if I'm right, dad?
John Williams:
00:22:37
Correct.
Doug Shafer:
00:22:38
Well, I'm sure Rory probably wasn't there, but I think I'm sure John was, I'm sure I was too. But, obviously, can't remember that one. Um, if people don't realize every four years on, uh, February 29th, is that correct? On Leap Year, there's an annual Frog's Leap party, which is, uh, oh my gosh, it's it's, um, renowned, it's, um, there's too many stories to go into. We won't do that here, but it's suffice to say it's an experience. Um, so Rory's born, John you're, when did, so when did you make the move from Spring Mountain? Was that '84, '85?
John Williams:
00:23:12
Yeah, about that time.
Doug Shafer:
00:23:14
Okay.
John Williams:
00:23:15
Uh, uh, you know, we, I had, we had to mix it in with, uh, some consulting jobs to make ends meet. But, um, we, we pretty much decided, uh, about '85, '86 that, uh, we were going to be able to make a go of it at, um, uh, and turn this into a real winery. And, uh, and so we, we kind of jumped in with both feet and, uh, started to make it happen at that point.
Doug Shafer:
00:23:35
So that's, and that's making it right at the original, uh, the Frog Farm, Larry's property, that's where you guys started?
John Williams:
00:23:42
Well, it was a mixture that was a pretty small place with, uh, limited facilities, but we started to redo it. But, uh, yeah, we, we were doing some custom crushing. We were, had a barrel storage unit. You know, you know how, when you bootleg these projects without a lot of money, it, uh, you do just whatever you have to do to, to get it going. We didn't have any vineyards at that point either, so we were buying fruit and, uh, um, it was definitely boot strapping.
Doug Shafer:
00:24:05
Mm-hmm, definitely. And that's, um, that's about the time period in the late '80s, I, I remember, it's 1988, '89, you called me up and said, "Shafer, you gotta meet this guy." I said, "Who's that?" You go, you said, "It's Amigo Bob." I said, "(laughs) You're kidding, right?" He goes, "No, he's –“ And you were like really serious and said, "Shafer, you gotta meet this guy." And we met over at Sinskey, and you and Amigo Bob and I went over and met in at, at Rob Sinskey's place.
00:24:31
And, uh, I walk in and this guy is, big, burly, handsome guy, long hair, shorts. It was January's cold, you know, Birkenstock sandals, has got tight eye t-shirt, he's a Deadhead. And, uh, one of the most (laughs) brilliant guys I've ever met in my life. But talk about Amigo Bob a little bit, John, 'cause you had such great times with him and he taught us all so much.
John Williams:
00:24:58
I mean, um, um, organic farming is, uh, and we've been certified organic now for 35 years at Frog's Leap. So we were early advocates and, um, and learners about organic farming and my mentor and my, uh, teacher was this guy, Amigo Bob. Who really didn't have a lot of experience in vineyards, but he didn't (laughs), uh, he was about the only one. We're talking, yeah as you mentioned, um, late, um, late '80s, um, not many people had knowledge about how to farm anything organically, um, much less grapes. And uh, uh, but we, uh, we brought him and we invited him over to meet a few growers and, uh, we committed to farming our own, uh, vineyards, which we were just starting to acquire at that point.
00:25:39
And, um, and decided that organic farming was gonna be part of our future. And we, you, you know, farming organically by be- being the only one doesn't work in organic farming, you need to inspire others. And, uh, and so we started, uh, uh, the first organic wine school in 1989 and really started to, uh, uh, teach others and, and get others involved, including, uh, thankfully you guys and, uh, and, uh, Rob and a number of other people. And, uh, and, uh, well, I'm proud to say that there are now more c- certified organic vineyards in Napa County than any other county in, uh, in California. And that's because of all the work that, uh, that you guys did, that we did. Uh, and certainly, Amigo Bob who at one point had something like, uh, 30 or 40 clients here in Napa.
Doug Shafer:
00:26:26
No, I’m with you, he was great, he taught us so much and, you know, listen, you need to give yourself credit. You were the major force in this valley, getting people away from the traditional, um, farming and, and chemical use in the vineyards. And, you know, I remember when we started with them and it, it wasn't, you know, instant success. It was you, you learned. I mean, this cover crop thing, you know, was a... which is great now, 'cause we all know how to do it. But, at first, it's like, "Oh, I didn't mow it in time, or two, I mowed it too soon." Or, you know, my, my vineyard guys would come to me on the we-, on Monday mornings and said, "Hey, I was at a barbecue yesterday? and all my friends are giving me a hard time 'cause our vineyard looked so trashy (laughs)."
00:27:04
I said, "Be- because it wasn't buffed out and nuked, you know, all the weeds and all that stuff." So there was a whole learning curve here just to say, "Hey, this is okay, this is how it works, and there's it's long-term benefits." And, and there are long-term benefits that need to take time. They gotta be patient, but it's, uh, it was, uh, I was very aware of just the whole mindset change from just that. And Amigo really helped me with that and he said, "You know, guys in the Central Valley have been, you know, growing carrots forever and they just keep using chemicals and they have the same problems. There's gotta be another way to solve this."
00:27:35
So it was, uh, it was kind of a sea change around here, which was great. And it spread, you know, throughout agriculture, you know, nationwide, which is really, really nice. Um, moving on, um, you and Larry, early '90s, I think you guys went your separate ways and so you had to find a new home for Frog's Leap. Um, I think down by it's called the Red Barn. Tell us about that whole era for Frog's?
John Williams:
00:28:02
Yeah. Uh, well, I, I mean, it was, it was really exciting to see, uh, Larry who always had an interest in wine, but he was a medical doctor. He was supposed to be the money in the partnership (laughs), but he had a little trouble holding on the wives, so that, that wasn't, uh, really the role he ended up playing. He was, uh, but he was, uh, always excited about that and really wanted to get in the wine business himself. And, um, and so we decided, at one point, well, well we needed to start a second winery. So we started Turley, uh, so Larry and I could split and each have our own winery.
00:28:31
So he started a new winery, Turley at the old location, the old Frog Farm, which of course was his home. And, um, and we took, uh, Frog's Leap, uh, the old winery to a new location. Um, and that's, uh, you know, I was on the board of the Wine Service Co-op with, uh, Chuck Carpy who, uh, he and his partners owned this old Red Barn, uh, down in Rutherford. We all knew about it, uh, but uh, had 40 acres of dead vineyard and, uh, the barn was falling over-
Doug Shafer:
00:28:59
(laughs).
John Williams:
00:28:59
... and it was, uh, no, it was, it was a, uh, basically, a toxic waste dump around here (laughs). And, uh, I said, "That looks perfect, Chuck. Any chance you'd (laughing), uh, at lease me that?" And, uh, and he eventually sold that property to us. And, uh, we moved down here and straightened up the barn and replanted the vineyard and planted a few posies and this is home now, uh, after, uh, what's that, to almost 25 years or more. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
00:29:21
Oh, it's a beautiful property. And, Chuck Carpy, many folks don't know that name. He was, uh, one of the original partners in Freemark Abbey, as I recall, and also Rutherford Hill. This is back in the kind of heyday of Freemark back in the '70s and Rutherford Hill is being developed. But, um, long time Napa Valley resident and just did wonderful things for this whole valley. And just, um, one of, you know, one of the founding fa- fathers that no one knows about, but great family, so glad you-
John Williams:
00:29:52
Yeah, a gen-, a gentle giant, and a great, uh, a great hero of mine.
Doug Shafer:
00:29:55
Mm-hmm. So you're, you got the Red Barn, you guys have moved in you've, uh... Oh, you started buying... Talk to me about the Rossi Vineyard 'cause I remember you, you told me about this for years. It's 'cause you g-, you get the fruit and I think you're living there now, right?
John Williams:
00:30:13
Yeah. Well, you, you know, um, a winery is only complete when it grows its own grapes and, um, that's why I'm so, you know, excited that when Rory came back on, he, he really wanted to get involved in the vineyards. We'll, we'll get to that in a second. But, uh, uh, acquiring vineyards in Napa, particularly, if you're bootstrapping is, is, uh, a laborious way. Uh, (laughs) you know, takes time and, uh, so we had, uh, we had bought 30 acres over on the west side of Rutherford, uh, uh, in, uh, '87. And then we, uh, brought the Red Barn here in '94, we added 40, uh, acres of vineyard.
00:30:45
And then, um, we bought a vineyard down at the end of Galleron, well, a piece of ground down at the end of Galleron Lane in, um, '98 from Alice Galleron and that's where we grow our Sauvignon Blanc. And then we, uh, started buying some grapes from, uh, Louise and Ray Rossi at the, the famous Rossi Ranch, uh, which had been in their family since, uh, 1908. And, uh, and then as they got older into their '80s and '90s, we, uh, started, uh, helping them with their vineyard work. And, um, and the long and the short of it, when, um, uh, Louise passed in 2007, she was the last of the family members. Uh, she had, um, given us an opportunity to, to buy the vineyard, um, a- as long as we put it into the land trust and preserved it as it was.
00:31:32
And, uh, that's what we committed to doing. So we bought that property in '07 and that's another 50 acres and that's really kind of a closed the loop for us. That's why we're now essentially a estate grown on most of our wines with the exception of, um, the Chardonnay, which we still buy from Tony Truchard. So that completed the circle for us, uh, and turned us into the estate winery we are today and, uh, given Rory, uh, 200 acres to farm with his mentor, uh, Frank Leeds and I was glad to turn that responsibility over to him, uh, as times come along. So he can be up at 2:00 in the morning, uh, (laughing) fighting for us instead of me (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
00:32:08
All right, uh, we're gonna get to Rory in a second, but before we do give, give me the, give the lineup? What's, what's the lineup of Frog's Leap wines these days? What, what are you guys making?
John Williams:
00:32:18
Well, we're fairly unique in that half of our production is white wine and we've been with Sauvignon Blanc really from the very beginning. It's a variety I loved. That one of my first trip to Europe was to Sancerre, and I fell in love with this idea that our wine, uh, spoke to the, uh, area. That the food, that the culture, everything, uh, um, e- evolved around this beautiful grape Sauvignon Blanc. So it was not a popular variety when we, uh, pine, you know, worked with it. Um, Mondavi was making a Fume Blanc, but, uh, uh, '81, we were really kind of champions of Sauvignon Blanc.
00:32:48
Uh, um, we added a Chardonnay because that, uh, my friend, Tony Truchard, offered us the grapes in '85. He'd planted them in '79, so we'd been working the same vineyard for, um, all these years. And, um, and then, of course, um, as we added vineyards, we've always loved Zinfandel, which is a major part of our production. A little bit of Merlot and Cabernet Sauvignon. And, um, uh, you know, we now, uh, have an estate grown Rutherford Bench Cabernet Sauvignon that is just, just unbelievable. Um, and, uh, we love it as well. And, uh, so that fills out the lineup, but, uh, you know, uh, we, we all, we have a bunch of other things that Rory can talk about that are interesting.
00:33:28
Uh, everything from Charbono to Mourvèdre that we, uh, Patisserie, that we're having lots of fun with making different wines. So there's always something going on here that's outside of our core, uh, five wines, uh, that we're always experimenting and having fun with. And, um, you know, uh, it- it's kind of a, kind of interesting. Um, uh, you know, when I came to Napa in '75, I mean, Cabernet Sauvignon, I mean, there were more, there was more, uh, Sauvignon Vert than there was Cabernet Sauvignon (laugh) I think.
Doug Shafer:
00:33:56
Right, right. I know that.
John Williams:
00:33:57
Uh, some of these old varieties have a nostalgia and maybe have, uh, a greater role as we move forward with climate change and the... And so it's nice to stay in touch with these older varieties as well.
Doug Shafer:
00:34:09
Well, I'm with you. We've all, we've all tried things through the years and some things work out and some things don't. You know, we made a Sangiovese Cabernet for 10 years, Firebreak, which was a lot of fun at the time. But, you know, that- that's gone by the wayside. But I gotta ask you one last question because it was the late '90s. Leapfrogmilch, help me about, help, tell me this story? You actually had a Lederhosen, Lederho- (laughs), Lederhosen party in Mount View Hotel in Calistoga? Come on, one last story then we (laughing) get to Rory. Leapfrogmilch what were the heck was that, John?
John Williams:
00:34:43
Well, well, when we started buying, uh, grapes from the Rossi's, they, um, you know, they had a little Cabernet Sauvignon, a little Sauvignon Blanc, which we were desperate to get and glad to get it. But they said, uh, "Well, you know, we have this Riesling as well (laughing). Well, what the hell was I gonna do with Riesling, you know (laughing)? And so we brought it back to the winery and what are we gonna do with this? Because no one was, I mean, Riesling was not exactly thought to be a, uh, major variety in the Napa Valley at this point. But we had to buy the grapes to get the other grapes.
00:35:09
And, uh, and so we, uh, tried to come up with original ideas to, to get rid of, uh, of these Riesling grapes. So we, uh, we made a sweet wine the first year that was tremendous that we called Frogenbeerenauslese, but they were all plays on names of, uh-
Doug Shafer:
00:35:22
Right.
John Williams:
00:35:23
... of, uh, of German Riesling names. And, uh, and then, um, uh, and then he, we had to get rid of some more of it (laughs). And, uh, so we made this beautiful little delicate, um, white wine from Riesling, uh, uh, and we, we knew we couldn't sell those Rieslings so I thought, you know, when, when I grew up, uh, you know, if you really wanted to get after the Mateus and the Lancers, uh, Liebfra-, uh, Liebfraumilch was the German wine that you could afford to buy. And so (laughing), uh, I thought Leapfrogmilch would be a perfect way to, uh, market Riesling. And that turned out not to be the case as it (laughs), but we still have a few bottles of it. It's absolutely delicious (laughing) and, uh, so there, there may be a, a resurgence of Leapfrogmilch soon. Stay tuned.
Doug Shafer:
00:36:06
All right. All right, I will, I will. Well, thanks, man. Um, okay, Rory, getting back to you. Um, I've talked with people on this, this show with who've grown up at wineries, but, uh, I think you're the only one that grew up at two wineries. You got your dad's Frog's Leap and your mom's Tres Sabores, right? And were you working at both places? What was that all about?
Rory Williams:
00:36:28
Working at both places, uh, growing up around it. I mean, my earliest memories really are, are of my mom and dad out on the, being road warriors and, oh, you know, "Okay kids, we're going on vacation." And vacation turned out to be, uh, six winemaker dinners and a bunch of trade visits (laughing). And, uh, um, you know, but, you know, it's our, our way of going on family vacation was going out to, to sell wine. And, uh, being there when, uh, my mom, uh, took Tres Sabores on her own. And, yeah, it's been, uh, uh, a journey back to come to, to join the family and, um, really get, get involved with both wineries. And still doing that, I was up the other night spraying at Tres Sabores and, uh, uh, trying to fix the tractor so it went forward and not backwards.
00:37:14
And, uh, just, uh, staying involved on, on, um, on, on every level there. So it makes, uh, Christmas pretty, uh, pretty interesting. So we, we lined everybody's wines up between, uh, uh, the Frog's Leap wines and the Tres Sabores wines. And, of course, my stepdad, Jon, Jon Engelskirger's got all of his wines. And so I've got my own wines. My brother's making hard cider and, uh, so we got, you know, 25 bottles on the counter by the time we're, uh, uh, it's all said and done.
Doug Shafer:
00:37:42
Well, um, who's the de- (laughs), who's the designated driver at those things, anyway?
Rory Williams:
00:37:47
Uh, uh, my, my two-year-old, you know, carrying on in the family tradition.
Doug Shafer:
00:37:50
There you go. Oh, that sounds great. So right now your role at Frog's is what? Are you running the vineyards?
Rory Williams:
00:37:57
Mostly on the vineyard side, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
00:37:59
Okay.
Rory Williams:
00:37:59
So, um, you know, keeping up with the day to day, writing the work orders, um, really working with, uh, my mentor in the vineyards, Frank Leeds, uh, who, you know, really brought, uh, a, a lot the kind of complete farming picture to us in the vineyards. Um, I met his daughter, Lauren, in preschool, and so, uh, that was another piece of the, the Frog's Leap puzzle and, uh, another long time relationship with the family here. Um, and that was kind of my entry point coming outta school, coming back into, uh, the family business was, um, speaking Spanish, which was a big part of that.
Doug Shafer:
00:38:35
Mm-hmm.
Rory Williams:
00:38:35
And, uh, coming back into the fold. Um, you know, not really coming directly back into the winery, but instead just getting out there. Was on the vineyard crew for, for five years, um, pruning, suckering, leafing, um, doing everything but, but picking. 'Cause by the time I got to picking, I started cutting my hands too many times, um-
Doug Shafer:
00:38:55
Yeah, I know that one, yeah.
Rory Williams:
00:38:57
... and, uh, and helping my dad out in the vine-, in the, in the winery. And so that's, uh, that was kind of my journey back into it, and that's taken that on full time now.
Doug Shafer:
00:39:05
That's great. So be- before we get back to that, let's, let's bounce back to childhood. So I don't know if you remember this, but boy, I do, and I'm sure John does. I, every once in a while it would get super cold and that pond back at, uh, your mom's place would freeze over. And I remember-
Rory Williams:
00:39:23
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
00:39:23
... going out there a couple times and we used to play broomball. It would be brooms and played like hockey with the soccer ball. You remember that?
Rory Williams:
00:39:29
I do, I do.
Doug Shafer:
00:39:30
Oh (laughs).
Rory Williams:
00:39:31
It was the winter of, uh... the one I remember the best is the, it was when it snowed on the valley floor. So this is '90 or '91, I think. Uh, one of, one of the, you know, as I was just six years old, but, uh, yeah, the pond froze over and, uh, all you yayhoos got together to, to play, uh, to get drunk and play ice hockey on a pond. Which was about, as I remember, uh, about three quarters frozen or, uh, three quarters of-
Doug Shafer:
00:39:54
Yeah.
Rory Williams:
00:39:54
... it was playable.
Doug Shafer:
00:39:55
Yeah (laughs).
Rory Williams:
00:39:55
But when the puck would go down to the other end, it was kind of you had to draw straws as to who was gonna go get it.
Doug Shafer:
00:40:00
No, I-
Rory Williams:
00:40:00
But eventually somebody did fall through the ice (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
00:40:04
(laughing) Yeah, I do, good, good, it was the same. I was thinking about that this morning going, "God, did that really happen?" 'Cause I remember that somehow the word got out 'cause everybody's like, "Bring your kids." 'Cause, you know, my three kids were, you know, same age as you and your brother and sister. So, you know, you guys were all whatever, six, seven, eight, nine, but it was a, it was a scream. Um, but, yeah, then it got kind of weird 'cause the ice started cracking (laughing), and yeah, someone went in. A little scary, but it was fun.
Rory Williams:
00:40:28
(laughs) All, all of a sudden it's like, "Wait a second, we could die out here."
Doug Shafer:
00:40:30
Yeah, yeah, it was probably your father's idea. Thanks, John. Anyway, um-
John Williams:
00:40:35
(laughs) Everyone had plenty of antifreeze (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
00:40:38
So high school was, uh, where was high school?
Rory Williams:
00:40:42
St. Helena Public High School. Um, all public schools here in St. Helena and, uh, yeah, grew up a, a valley kid. Um-
Doug Shafer:
00:40:51
Yeah.
Rory Williams:
00:40:51
Went to school, uh, with your, uh, with your kids. Uh, I think both of 'em a little bit younger than me, but, um, not too far off. And so I remember going over, uh, to your guys' house, uh, growing up and hanging out by the pool.
Doug Shafer:
00:41:05
Yeah.
Rory Williams:
00:41:05
Um, on, on the hot days.
Doug Shafer:
00:41:07
Oh, yeah, pool basketball. You guys, were you in (laughing)? Do you remember that one? I know John did.
Rory Williams:
00:41:11
I do.
Doug Shafer:
00:41:12
Is it one day?
Rory Williams:
00:41:12
I, I do, yeah (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
00:41:14
Those games got a little, little physical. I remember that. Okay (laughing). All right, so you're growing up. So as you're getting outta high school, what are you thinking? Are you thinking the wine business or it's like, "Man, I've been doing this. I need to get away from this." Where, where was your head at on this, this whole thing?
Rory Williams:
00:41:29
Well, well, as you, as you probably know and, and it's, it's complicated. I always loved the wine business. I always loved being around the vineyards, um, and really I think more than, more than anything I knew above, uh, beyond that I knew it was a- an extremely special place here. Uh, I was always an outdoors kid. I was lucky to have my parents be very out-, very outgoing, very adventurous. And so we were always hiking, always going places. Uh, my, my mom can probably run up a mountain, um, with, with the energy she has. And so Na- Napa's a pretty, uh, Napa's a pretty boring place if you're not into the outdoors.
00:42:09
Um, when you're a, when you're a teenager, it's not yet, uh, time to go to tasting rooms and ta-, and taste wine. And if you're into malls and movie theaters, it's, it's a, it's kind of a slow place. Um, but I loved it. And still love the valley, uh, a lot. With that said, I didn't want to, uh, just kind of immediately go right into the, uh, wine business. I had other interests, um, loved reading, loved, uh, kind of some other academic pursuits and knew I wanted to do something different before I came back into the wine business, if I were, were to come back into the wine business.
Doug Shafer:
00:42:48
Oh, good, good.
Rory Williams:
00:42:48
And, uh, and, and knew my dad's story of having, uh, you know, bootstrap for, for lack of a better term. It didn't seem right to just sort of, uh, jump right into it, uh, uh, right after high school or even right after, uh, right after college.
Doug Shafer:
00:43:01
Good. So, uh, so where was college?
Rory Williams:
00:43:05
College was at St. John's College in, uh, in Annapolis, Maryland. Um, I remember (laughs), uh, signing up for school and, uh, having to describe to my brother where Maryland was. Um, (laughing) and, uh, you know, he's kind of looking at me like, "Wow, you chose about as far away from, from home as you could get."
Doug Shafer:
00:43:24
It is, it is, it is, actually, isn't it? It is, it is the farthest away.
Rory Williams:
00:43:28
You, you know (laughs), it, it, it felt pretty far away. And, uh, you know, we'd been back to the East Coast many times. As kids we always went back there for Thanksgiving, um, which is always a little funny, bringing out, uh, Little Johnny's wine that he'd been making for, for 30 years for, uh, to Thanksgiving where nobody would dare drink it.
Doug Shafer:
00:43:46
Right.
Rory Williams:
00:43:46
Um, but it was, uh, you know, be- been back to the East Coast, but it had never had that fu- full experience of being away. And that's what I wanted. I, I wanted... I knew I needed to create distance and create a longing for Napa if I were gonna come back and, and, um, be able to do my own thing.
Doug Shafer:
00:44:06
And your dad mentioned you went to Cornell also. Wa- was that after St. John's?
Rory Williams:
00:44:13
Yeah, so St. John's wa-, it wasn't a direct path exactly. Um, so I, um, did my first couple years at St. John's, which, uh, for those of you that don't know, it's, it's a, it's, it has nothing to do with wine, whatsoever. Uh, it doesn't have a whole lot to do with anything, uh, uh, real concrete, you might say. It's a great book school, so you, uh, kind of sit around reading books, works of philosophy and poetry in, in the, in the original Greek. And, uh, it's this, the whole idea is that you're trying to generate ideas, stimulate ideas, learn how to think. Um, and I took about two years of that and I liked it, but figured I would get my hands dirty. So I did take a, a year off from school and worked harvest.
Doug Shafer:
00:44:57
Okay.
Rory WIlliams 00:44:58
And that ended up being pretty critical. I had, um, fallen in love with the idea of Barolo and Barbaresco, just reading the, the World Atlas of Wine as a kid. And so went and traveled there, did stage in Barolo. And, uh, then flipped harvest and did stage down in, uh, Argentina in Mendoza after that. And that was really where the whole coming into, back into the fold, uh, of the, of the wine business really started to take some shape. Um, I didn't know Italian when I went to Italy to, to work, uh, the harvest there. And, basically, back, got to the end of that and, uh, realized that if I enjoyed doing this, uh, while getting yelled at in a language I barely understood, um, then maybe this was something I could end up doing. And it, it was where in Italy is where I really had my first aha moment with wine.
Doug Shafer:
00:45:48
Okay.
Rory Williams:
00:45:49
Uh, where I had been, um, working, worked there for about, uh, four months. And, uh, you know, started in the summer and, uh, worked all the way through harvest. So we get to the end of, uh, the harvest there and, uh, we have the big blowout dinner with all the, uh, all the vineyard workers, all the cellar workers. And, uh, had been drinking basically nothing but Arneis, Nebbiolo, um, Barbera, and Dolcetto for, for four months. But I'd brought one bottle of Cabernet from, uh, uh, from Frog's Leap with me just to share. And it was that experience of having been 6,000 miles removed for so long, and then opening up this bottle of Napa Cabernet and it was like being transported 6,000 miles back home, uh, just instantly.
Doug Shafer:
00:46:37
Uh-huh.
Rory Williams:
00:46:38
And it was I'd never had that. I'd grown up around, uh, Napa wine, obviously. It had plenty of Cabernet in my life, but I'd never had that experience before. Never been transported in that way and it required that kind of distance to really have that revelation. And I thought, at that moment, A, it was a beautiful thing to experience. And I thought that, that, that right there is something worth doing. Um, it's this isn't just booze, it's not just a glass of wine. This is something, uh, pretty special that to be able to transport. And so that sat in my mind as I finished my coup-, uh, the last couple years at St. John's.
00:47:15
Uh, did a, uh, another stage right after St. John's before going to, uh, to Cornell. And, uh, they still didn't have a graduate program in wine, uh, in winemaking. So I was part of the flavor chemistry, uh, department, uh, actually working mostly out of Geneva.
Doug Shafer:
00:47:34
Okay.
Rory Williams:
00:47:34
Uh, but that was how I kind of, that was my way of getting, being a TA and, uh, being a research assistant and getting essentially paid to, to learn chemistry, uh, at Cornell.
Doug Shafer:
00:47:45
Man, that's a great story. So that's when it, that's when it clicked after that? Ain't that amazing. We, everybody's got a, a moment where it kind of clicks, you, you know, whether, whether it's wine or anything you do. So you finished up at Cornell and then, uh, so at this point you're probably be- beating a path back to Napa 'cause is that the, is that what happened?
Rory Williams:
00:48:13
Yeah, you know, it was, uh, I, at that point, I had been about 10 years on the East Coast. And, uh, between, uh, travel and school and, uh, um, met my future wife back there. And, uh, I was, uh, I was getting cold. You know, I was, I was still a (laughing) California kid, but it, it was, it was the experience. I remember, uh, being at St. John's my freshman year and it, it snowed on April 1st. It was a big blizzard year in, in-
Doug Shafer:
00:48:40
(laughs).
Rory Williams:
00:48:41
... Annapolis and I just, I just started crying. I, I couldn't handle it (laughing). I, I was just, I was so, I was so soft. Um, I eventually got used to it and be- became accustomed, but Ithaca was a whole nother, uh, dimension of cold. And, uh, you know, eventually just kind of had to, I had to get outta the Northeast and had to come back home. Um, my, uh, dad had offered a- an internship, a harvest internship at Frog's Leap in 2010. And so I came back in, uh, late summer of 2010 to, uh, to work that harvest for Frog's Leap. Um, and then it went from there.
Doug Shafer:
00:49:14
Yeah, I was, I was, I was gonna ask you about that. So, um, 'cause, you know, I'm, I'm a veteran of a father/son working relationship. So, yeah, so did you have to apply? Did you have to interview? I mean, you know, was he, was he tough to work for? You know, first job, what was, what was it like in the beginning (laughs) with you two guys?
Rory Williams:
00:49:31
Well, you know, when, when my, my dad drives off every other intern, uh, you know, he had to, had to have somebody come in and, uh, and stomp the grapes. No, it was, um, you know, it's, as, as you know, it's this tension between wanting to, wanting the family to join the fold and not wanting to push or pull too hard. And, uh, wanting to make sure that there's a, that there's something there. Um, so coming back and having done the stages before, um, having worked, um, elsewhere, I had never actually done any, uh, formal harvest work at, at Frog's Leap.
00:50:09
I kind of had grown up in the summers tying vines out, uh, for Frank out in the vineyard or, uh, working for our resident engineer, Brad Lusk, uh, repairing the Red Barn in the winters and summers. But had never, uh, held down a, a formal internship here at the winery. And, uh, you know, I'll, I'll give credit to my dad, it was I didn't really work for him. Um, I worked for Pablo-
Doug Shafer:
00:50:32
Right.
Rory Williams:
00:50:32
... um, our, our cellar, our longtime cellar master and now winemaker. Uh, I worked for him, I worked for the guys on the crew. And that was the way that really worked out very well in, in 2010. And it set the kind of a template for coming back to Frog's Leap, um, in 2012 for a full-time position. Well, part, started as part-time, but it, it became important to not work for my dad, but to work for everybody else who makes things click at Frog's Leap. We talk about being a family winery, but it's, it's not so much about ownership as, as having these kinds of generations of people who, uh, tie into the story of Frog's Leap. And that's been extremely important to us for a long time. So I, I still feel like I, I work for them, um, and not, I don't work for my dad. That kind of thing.
Doug Shafer:
00:51:26
Yeah, I'm with you. That's, uh, that's smart. John, you're a smart father. Good job. Don't have him work for you directly. All indirect.
John Williams:
00:51:34
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
00:51:35
All indirect. Trust, but trust me, Rory, he was, he was going behind your back talking to Pablo and those other guy saying, "Okay, how's he doing? How's he doing (laughing)?" Well, yeah, da- dads do that stuff, you know, that's the way it goes. So you're, you're 20-, 2012, you're a full time at Frog's Leap, and I think you start your own winery. You got your own brand, right?
Rory Williams:
00:51:56
Yeah, started the, the year before actually I came to, uh, to, to Frog's Leap. I, uh, after 2010, I had a little, I had to take some time off from, uh, for an injury, um, and kind of got bored at, kind of got restless at that point and said, "Wow, I'm go-, I'm gonna start my own winery." I had fallen in love with this grape Charbono and thought that, that was something pretty fun. Um, and so wa- was looking for a way to l- learn all, all of the, the bones of the business, you might say.
00:52:57
Didn't really wanna start my own Cabernet project or, and certainly wouldn't call it a project kind of thing. Uh, and, and wanted to figure out how I could make my own thing and make my own mistakes on my own dime. And, uh, and use that to, to move forward in the, in the wine industry. That was pretty important to me to, uh, to make some mistakes and learn all these different things, um, that my dad had learned at the Taylor Wine Company that he had le- learned kind of over the years. Um, and I knew I had to learn it fairly quickly. So starting Calder Wine Company was my way of doing that while exploring some other fun grapes that didn't necessarily fit into the fold with Tres Sabores or, or Frog's Leap right away. Um, but that I knew I wanted to have my hands in.
Doug Shafer:
00:53:47
You're wise beyond your years, my friend. Um, 'cause in this business, um, as your father knows and as you now know, it's all about the details and it's, it's not glamorous. It's n- nitty gritty and it's, and you gotta get the details covered and you gotta get 'em done on time with the right government agency or this or that. And, um, you know, the glory of harvest and making wine in a fermenting tank, which is just glorious, God love it, we all do. But, um, the devil is truly in the details. So it's good for you for, uh, taking that on and learn it.
00:54:23
Because without that background, um, you can't really truly enjoy the glamorous side of it, which is the, um, yeah, it's harvest and fermentations. I mean, there's nothing better. Uh, what, what flavors are you making with, with Calder? You've got the, you said Charbono, right?
Rory Williams:
00:54:40
Charbono, using some of that, uh, Riesling, uh, that, that was, uh (laughing), we kept in the ground at all -
Doug Shafer:
00:54:45
(laughs) There it is, the Riesling.
Rory Williams:
00:54:48
You know, all of a sudden, the Ri- Riesling pops up again.
Doug Shafer:
00:54:50
The Riesling's back.
Rory Williams:
00:54:50
It's funny, you know, the, the Liebfraumilch has a, has a weird tie in with Charbono, um, just 'cause, dad, when you, uh, after you started making Leapfrogmilch, uh, Leapfrogmilch, word got out that there was somebody in the valley buying Riesling. Um, and so all of a sudden you started getting calls left and right from, uh, people who had Riesling. And I remember you had a, there was a, a guy on Manly Lane who had four acres of (laughing), uh, uh, of Riesling and say, "Well, you know, I heard you're buying Riesling. Can you, would you take some of this?" And, uh, I remember you, you bought that Riesling and then e- eventually helped, uh, him find a, find a buyer. Um, remind me of the guy's name, dad?
John Williams:
00:55:30
Ken, Ken and Ellen McGill, yeah (laughing).
Rory Williams:
00:55:33
Ken and Ellen McGill (laughing). Um, you know, an old grower, it's no longer Riesling, um, but, you know, that story played out in a funny way. Where years after you stopped buying, uh, Riesling from, uh, from Ken McGill, you got a call from Ken McGill saying, "Hey, John, you know, I've got all this, uh, got all this old wine that I've got stored downstairs. And, uh, I don't want my kids to have it. And I don't, you know, the wife and I don't drink very much, very much anymore. So, uh, would you mind coming down and see if you wanna buy it?" And ended up being about 10 cases of Inglenook and Charles Krug from the '50s and '60s-
Doug Shafer:
00:56:10
Oh my gosh.
Rory Williams:
00:56:10
... just completely, completely priceless wines really, um, certainly nowadays. And in that stash was a bunch of old Inglenook Charbono from the '60s. A grape that when we popped open that bottle, we had never heard of the grape before. Um, it was totally unknown to us and we thought, "Well, how bad could it be?" And it was if I had to point out a second aha moment, uh, that, that would be it. That was, uh, uh, a totally ethereal magical bottle of '61 Inglenook Charbono that, uh, kind of inspired Calder to come to be.
00:56:45
Um, Pablo had some contacts, uh, with Ignacio, the winemaker at the, uh, now-gone Summers Estate up in Calistoga that had some Charbono. Um, and it caused us to put, put the breaks on about an acre of Cabernet and it became an acre of Charbono instead at Rossi.
Doug Shafer:
00:57:02
Wow.
Rory Williams:
00:57:03
So there's some, there's some Charbono planted at Rossi now (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
00:57:07
That's cool. So I've got a question for each of you guys. So you guys have been working together over 10 years. You know, you know, probably longer than that. Obviously, it's going really well. Two things for each of you guys, what are the cha-, what, what have been the challenges in working together and what have been the joys? Rory, you go first, challenges and joys.
Rory Williams:
00:57:36
My dad and I are pretty, pretty simpatico, so, so we're not, um, butting heads all the time. And I guess that's a, maybe a pre- prerequisite, for working so closely together. The, the challenges of the, the fact that (laughs) there, there's kind of no way of not taking e- everything personally (laughing). If, if, uh, if you have a disagreement, but really it- it's more about, um, trying to keep the winery going. And, and, uh, that challenge is sort of when we face together, keeping business strong, keeping people happy, um, and realizing that, uh, the wine business is, is all consuming.
00:58:25
It's, uh, there's no, there- there's never any moment where you say, "Okay, well, I'm done for the day." There is no clock out time. You're, you know, quite apart from literally waking up at 2:00 AM for frost. There's the, uh, the knowledge that I have of, of my parents constantly working, constantly striving to, to make the winery work and make it work for everybody here. And, uh, I've now joined in that with, with my dad. It's, uh-
Doug Shafer:
00:58:56
Mm-hmm.
Rory Williams:
00:58:57
... it's lovely. It's, that's challenging and, um, means that you have to really find your (laughs), find your, and plan your escapes, uh, just for a, for a moment's rest. But it's, it's an incredible privilege on my part to do that. And I know that at, at the same time. And so that's kind of the, the main joy of it is, is realizing-
Doug Shafer:
00:59:15
Right.
Rory Williams:
00:59:15
... that it is, it is something special. That challenge is not something that, um, you should or can take for granted. Um, to have this opportunity to, having worked in the vineyards. I knew that, that was a special opportunity in itself. Um, and being able to, to be a part of that release you feel around harvest of all the tension, of the growing season and, uh, the bottling and supplies and taxes and all these things that wrap up into the year. And then that first load of grapes comes in on, on the crush pad, the first Sauvignon Blanc of the season. And, uh, your family's there. Um, that's a pretty sweet feeling. Uh, that's, that's hard to beat.
Doug Shafer: 01:00:03
Right. Thank you. That was beautiful. Kind of (laughs) brings back memories of working with my dad. Oh, all right, so Papa John, how about you, challenges and joys?
John Williams:
01:00:10
(laughs) Well, I think probably you can appreciate more than anyone, uh, Doug, or as much as anyone that there's no, uh, manual for how this all plays out, uh, how you keep a family winery family. And that, that's, uh, every story's a little bit unique. And, uh, um, you know, it is a, a, uh... Rory's got a brother and a sister and, uh, you know, I enjoyed being married so much, I got married a second time. And, uh, you know (laughs), uh, that- that's part of our family as well. And so, um, being cognizant of, of all that, how that all comes together, there are, uh, um, the...
01:00:48
It's a constant challenge to think about how to move that forward and make it all work and, and, uh, make sure everyone has a, feels like they're part of the, part of the process. So that is an ongoing, uh, challenge here. So the mechanics of that, of course, the estate planning and all that, that has to be thoughtful, uh, thoughtfully building a team, uh, at the winery that supports us. Uh, so it's a, it's a constant battle and certainly one that's hardly ever done. But with that comes so many joys, uh, as Rory, uh, talked about. Uh, I think for me the big part of this is, you know, it's, it's hard for an old farmer and an old winemaker to, um, give up any control at all.
01:01:30
You, you fought your whole life to get that control of your own vineyards and your own wine making and your own equipment. And, all of a sudden, to, uh, invite someone else, uh, to even a family member to come in, you know, every farmer wants his, uh, a son to take over the farm, but none of 'em want to give up any control of the farm (laughing). And so that's a, that's a story-
Doug Shafer:
01:01:50
That's true.
01:01:50
... as old as farming itself. And so, but I think, uh, the, the key to that is, is built on respect. And so Rory's put in the hard work to, uh, gain my respect. And not only in the, in the vineyards, but in the winemaking. Um, and, uh, that certainly helps, uh, tremendously. We're not a hobby winery. We, and we have, um, we have employees and (laughs) we have vineyards to tend. We have businesses to, uh, run and, uh, it, uh, it's, it's a lot. And, um, uh, we just, uh... Uh, well, you know, their old, old story about the farmer who won the lottery and they kept what, you know, what are you gonna do with all the money? And I think his answer was, "We'll just keep on farming till it's all gone (laughing)." I think that's kind of how we feel about the - (laughing).
Doug Shafer: 01:02:42
Oh, oh, I like that one. Oh, thanks, man. Um, so tell us where folks can find both Frog's Leap and Calder Wines? Is there a website? What's, what can folks, how can people find your guys' wines?
Rory Williams:
01:02:56
Well, we, we did decide it would be smart to invest in a website at, at, at one point so-
John Williams:
01:03:01
Or someone did, I'm not sure (laughing).
Rory Williams:
01:03:02
Oh, it's this new thing, the whole new-fangled internet thing. Um, yeah, so frogsleap.com and calderwine.com. Um, I'd be reminiscent not mentioning mom's place, tressabores.com. But it's, uh, um, yeah, that's, that's where you find us.
Doug Shafer:
01:03:18
Great, great news. All right, you guys. Hey, again, thank you both for taking the time. Rory, especially you, you need to go take a nap. You, you just sneak out back and sleep in your truck. It's the best, best place to take a nap (laughing). And, uh, so good to talk to both of you guys, hear your stories. Thanks for sharing, um, special time. So be good, and I'll see you out there, okay?
John Williams:
01:03:41
Thanks Doug, this has been a blast.
Doug Shafer:
01:03:43
All right guys.
Rory Williams:
01:03:43
Thanks, Doug.
Doug Shafer:
01:03:43
All right, have a good day. See you.
Rory Williams:
01:03:46
All right, bye.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Everybody, welcome back. It's Doug Shafer, another episode of The Taste. Uh, today we welcome a long-time friend, family friend, who I do not get to see often enough. Native of Napa, he's being making great wines for a long time, many years. Longer than me, which is saying something. And, uh, but we'd like to welcome John Kongsgaard of Kongsgaard Wines. John, how are you doing?
John Kongsgaard:
Very well, thank you. Nice to talk to you.
Doug Shafer:
Good to have you on. I was thinking of last night about the first time we met, and you know, you might have to help me out with this. I think it was at a, a holiday/Christmas/Thanksgiving family dinner. Your family and my family. Was that when it was?
John Kongsgaard:
That could well be, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course I knew your, I knew your dad before I knew you.
Doug Shafer:
Right. And I think there was a time when...
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Uh, it was some holiday where your folks brought all you guys over to our house and all the kids, you know, had dinner together with those guys. So, I think that was when it was, so...
John Kongsgaard:
There you go.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, probably was late seventies, something like that. Something, yeah. Anyway, a lot to cover with you. Um, there's your story, the winery. But, uh, I think we've gotta start with your mom and dad, big part of this. Um, I think, I, as I've read, if I've read correctly, you're a fifth generation Napan, is that correct?
John Kongsgaard:
That's correct, on my mother's side. Yep.
Doug Shafer:
All right. Well let's start with mom. Tell, what's her story?
John Kongsgaard:
Okay, well Lorraine was quite a character. We should actually go back a couple generations 'cause this is the...
Doug Shafer:
Good.
John Kongsgaard:
This is the, the funniest part is that her, I guess, my great great grandfather was called Governor Lilburn Boggs.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
And he had the distinction of being the governor of Missouri when the Mormons tried to settle there. And he ran them out on a rail.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
John Kongsgaard:
And the last, last Mormon to leave shot him standing on the state house, uh, porch. He was then, I think impeached or least left in disgrace and came on a wagon train with of all people the Donner Party group.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, no.
John Kongsgaard:
Saw, yeah. Saw through them and went up to Oregon and came back down to California when it was still part of Mexico and worked for General Vallejo.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, wow.
John Kongsgaard:
So, we've been in charge here for a long time.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
John Kongsgaard:
Okay, so that's my mother's descendant who got us here. Oh, and add color to that, Governor Boggs was married to Panthea Boone who was said to be Daniel Boone's ugliest granddaughter.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
So there you go. Anyway, there's a little-
Doug Shafer:
Kongsgaard you can't, you, you can't make this stuff up.
John Kongsgaard:
No.
Doug Shafer:
This is too good.
John Kongsgaard:
No, no.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, my.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah, it's funny.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
Uh, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. (laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
That's, that's how we got here. Anyway, my mother was quite a different story. Lorraine Streblo was her maiden name.
Doug Shafer:
Your mother.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
My memory, I'm just interrupting, she was a wonderful woman.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I adored her. But go ahead, keep going?
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah, she was a dear soul, a great mother. And a pioneer in her day, she was the, one of the first, uh, women to graduate from Stanford Law School. So, uh, very independent minded, uh, kind of a rascal. So didn't suffer fools well, uh, but was nonetheless sweet to the people that she loved, including me.
Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah, so she was, she was, uh, obviously grew up in Napa and met my dad when they were both at Stanford Law School.
Doug Shafer:
Got it, so all right, well that's your mom Lorraine. So how about your dad, the judge? What's his story?
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah, the, the... The judge was born, uh, to Norwegian immigrants, his grandparents came from Norway and as teenagers independent from one another, met in Alaska and settled in Everett, Washington, North of Seattle. And he was blown up in the war, in the second world war on a, on a minesweeper in the Pacific. And ended up, uh, in a naval hospital in California, in Oakland. Uh, and that's what got him to California through, and, and, and eventually met my mom. So he was a judge, um, he was a terrible lawyer apparently 'cause he could-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
... always see, see the other guys' point of view so clearly. So it's good that he got out of that and became a judge. So he, he was like the judge in Napa for a long distinguished career. Not, not a hanging judge, they all said. But a very, uh, even-keel wonderful guy. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh he was a great guy. I did know him pretty well and, and we glossed over. He was in, in serious injury. He lost, he lost part of most of his, his leg. Right? Didn't-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah, he lost, he lost his left leg in the Pacific. Yep.
Doug Shafer:
Right. And then I remember-
John Kongsgaard:
Did, did slow him down.
Doug Shafer:
It did, I, well, yeah, 'cause I remember I'd see him out in the golf course and he, he was avid golfer, hit the heck outta the ball.
John Kongsgaard:
Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
And I don't know if you know this story. I met him socially a couple times, but the time I really got to know was, uh, when I had to testify at a, believe it or not, a murder trial in Napa and he was the judge and I had-
John Kongsgaard:
Oh boy.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And this was something that happened when I was in high school and I saw this car that was, and a year later I'm home for vacation, you know, Christmas for college. And I'm reading about in the local paper about this trial and this, this particular car, it was an old Cadillac ambulance. And I said to my mom, I said, "I, I remember that night. I remember seeing that car when I was dropping off this gal after a basketball game." And she said you're kidding. And so she was on, she and dad were on their way to a dinner party. They ran into your folks. She makes this comment to your dad, (laughs) the judge.
John Kongsgaard:
Oh no.
Doug Shafer:
The next day the DA is knocking on our front door saying we need to speak to your son (laughs). So...
John Kongsgaard:
Wow.
Doug Shafer: I ended up testifying at this murder trial and I, I didn't, you know, all I could say was I saw this car, I couldn't identify anything. But-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... at one point the def- defense lawyer was starting to get, get after me pretty aggressively. And your dad was great. He kind of came in and shut him down. So at that point-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Good.
Doug Shafer:
... he was my favorite for sure. (laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. There you go. Great.
Doug Shafer:
All right. So he was a judge, here for a long time, famous in Napa. And you, so you were, when were you born?
John Kongsgaard:
Uh, '51.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. And, uh, two sisters, Mary and Martha, as I recall.
John Kongsgaard:
Yep. One older, one younger.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. So growing up in Napa, what was that like?
John Kongsgaard:
Uh, it was a little, it was kind of a cow town, as we used to say. I mean, there, nobody lived here. There was no restaurant in Napa that you could go to on like on mom's birthday. We would all get dressed up and we had to go either to Sonoma or San Francisco. I mean, it was a real backwater.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
John Kongsgaard:
And so we're saying there wasn't much of a wine industry then either. Um, for example, when I graduated from high school in 1969, I think there were about 18 wineries in Napa County.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
John Kongsgaard:
So yeah, those are the old days.
Doug Shafer:
Compared to 600 now, something like that.
John Kongsgaard:
Yep. Yep. So, but growing up were your folks into wine? Was there wine in the house?
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. My dad was a good friend of Louis Martini among other people and Andre Tchelistcheff, uh, lived just down the street from my us and became a great friend of mine, uh, in the end. Uh, so yeah, there was always wine. He was sort of the, uh, wine ambassador when his law school buddies would come around, he would show them the difference between a Claret bottle and a burgundy bottle and...
John Kongsgaard:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I mean the real basics, but yeah, he was a, he was a friend of all of those people. Um, the Mondavis and the Mondavis and yeah, we had, oh, it was Christmas. We had Charles Krug special select Cabernet with a little red stripe on the corner and-
John Kongsgaard:
Oh, I remember that.
Doug Shafer:
... Old BVs and yeah.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Oh, that's great.
Doug Shafer:
I still have some Louis Martini wine that was in my dad's collection when he died, uh, from back to the fifties.
John Kongsgaard:
Oh, wow.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, he was an avid, avid wine nut.
John Kongsgaard:
Good, good.
Doug Shafer:
And uh, my, uh, crack research team, we found out the high school for you was down in Monterey. Is that correct?
John Kongsgaard:
Yep. Yep. I got shipped out. I was a fiercely dyslexic, uh, terrible student. And so I was not sent to reform school quite, but I was sent to a high disciplined college preparatory school for boys.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
Robert Louis Stevenson. Turned out to be a great thing for me. Not least because I got to, uh, leave town as a teenager in the town where my dad was the judge.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
John Kongsgaard:
So was that, not a bad thing.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. That's not good 'cause...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) You don't want the share of calling your dad at night? (laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
No, no, that's right.
Doug Shafer:
And high school interest, sports, I'm, I'm, I'm thinking music was a big interest probably then.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah, that's, uh, no, it was in high school that I-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
... became a cla- classic music, classical music devotee. Not, not much sports. Sports was mostly cross country. So we could run down to the beach, dig up the football and the Cabernet bottle that were all buried, like, uh, treasure on Pebble Beach.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So after, so 1969. So I gotta ask because, uh, you're little ahead of my time. So, and you know, I'm in high school watching the news, so you're going to college and I'm watching the, the protests and all the hippies-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and the all.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So were you like a long hair hippie guy? Is that, was that your look?
John Kongsgaard:
A medium.
Doug Shafer:
Medium.
John Kongsgaard:
Medium hair-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
... hippie guy. Uh, and I, my father who was a war hero and a public figure. Even, even on the draft board for example, um, he and I just truly defined the generation gap. Te was the war hero and I was the Vietnam protestor, you know, snot nose intellectual telling my dad that, uh, all wars were evil and I'm sorry about your leg, but uh, I'm not going to Vietnam. So I actually worked my way, uh, toward becoming a conscientious objector to his incredible chagrin and even shame.
In the end we all patched it up and I, I got out of the, the CO, um, track because I was, I'm from the era of the, of the draft lottery. And I was lucky to draw a very high number so I could spare my father's honor. I dropped the conscientious objector application and just-
Doug Shafer:
And just-
John Kongsgaard:
... got out of the war that way. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Oh man. You know, I never even thought about that. That must have been really, that must have been tough, 'cause you...
John Kongsgaard:
It was a rough time.
Doug Shafer:
It was.
John Kongsgaard:
I mean, there was a kid in my dorm in Colorado who we were all getting drunk, watching the bingo game of our lives as they pulled your-
Doug Shafer:
Pulled your.
John Kongsgaard:
... number out of the, yeah. And anyway, one of our buddies was number six and he was gone before you knew it and came back in a body bag.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
John Kongsgaard:
Just like that. Just like that. Yeah. Roughest, terrible period of American history. No doubt about it.
Doug Shafer:
It, it really is. I was on the tail end. I, I was, they were still pulling numbers for me. So I remember that turned I 18, I went down to the Napa post office, downtown, Napa, you know, and registered and the whole thing. And unfortunately, fortunately I got a, a high number at that point that war was winding down, but uh...
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Well I'm glad you guys patched it up. That's good.
John Kongsgaard:
We did.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. That's good.
John Kongsgaard:
We'll get into this at some point, but um, we need to talk about my, our, our most noted wine is, is called The Judge. And um, I can tell you that now or later, but it's, uh, has to do with this period and yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Well, tell me, tell me, tell us the story now.
John Kongsgaard:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
It's appropriate.
John Kongsgaard:
So, so I started growing Chardonnay, uh, at the family place on Stone Crest Drive just east of the town of Napa, right on the city limits actually. Um, with the good fortune of our neighbor was Andre Tchelistcheff. And he, I, just getting excited about planting a little couple acres there, uh, when my interest in wine was getting the best of me, and Andre said we should grow Chardonnay, I thought, "Really?"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
There was no Chardonnay in Napa. Anyway, he turned out to be right. And that vineyard is now, uh, our flagship. But, uh, in my dad died in, uh, 2001. And in the subsequent vintage, we were, um, well, I'll back up and say that when, when we were having our arguments about the Vietnam war and war in general and all that, uh, we managed to keep our friendship going by him helping me while I was working on the weekends, getting this land cleared and planted, uh, to grapes. And it was perfect 'cause I could send him off to the far corner of the field to do a burn or something and we didn't have to talk at all except at lunch and then we'd have a beer at the end and that was it.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
Anyway, so we kind of kept it all going that way. And we, by the end of his life, we had certainly patched it up. He saw the folly of this, of the Vietnam war and-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
John Kongsgaard:
... we agreed on a lot of things that we did, that we disagreed on early on. Anyway, when he died, uh, in '01 I was out there for the vintage, um, picking, getting ready to pick the grapes and I had a sentimental moment thinking about him and I sent the crew home and just kept a couple of people and we picked, uh, what would became a barrel worth of grapes from the favorite part of the vineyard and made that as a one-off wine, which I called The Judge. And the idea was just to make a barrel in his memory and give it to the law school friends and was gonna be it.
And then the wine was eventually discovered by various critics and um, while it was still sitting in the barrel and uh, a big deal was made of it. And so eventually it became a commercial wine and now it's, and now it's our, our biggest deal. But it was all in honor of my dad and because we kept our friendship going while working in that vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
Oh John.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Great story. Thanks for sharing that.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's, oh, all right. I'm driving, I'm driving up the hill to see you 'cause I wanna share a bottle of that with you. (laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
We'll do that. We'll do that. We'll tell dad stories, that's for sure.
John Kongsgaard:
I, I'd love it.
Doug Shafer: That'd be great. Ah, thanks for that. So going back to hippie land. So after high school-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... college was Colorado, right?
John Kongsgaard:
College was yeah, I went to Colorado. I was, I was, um, just backing up. Uh, I graduated from high school in '69 and I was interested in agriculture. My mother's father Streblow was a cattle rancher. They had a big, beautiful ranch that's now under water at Lake Berryessa.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
And there were a lot of cattle and horses around our place where we had all grew up in Napa. Um, so I thought I, I really wanted to be in agriculture somehow, but my grandfather said you're never gonna make it in the cattle business. This is a big business for me, but it's basically a hobby supported by his quarry business. So I, I don't know how to do this. Maybe I'll go into forestry and be a forest ranger. I wanted to be out with plants and nature.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
John Kongsgaard:
Anyway, there was kind of no possibility, um, at that point other than maybe the forestry route. So I went to Colorado State University where I could be at the same time, a, uh, science, like a plant science person, and also study literature which was my main passion. And I thought, if I can't figure out the ag side, I'll become a literature professor. So I was really on the track for that. And by the time I graduated, uh, in 73, the wine business had absolutely exploded.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.
John Kongsgaard:
That's when it went from a dozen wineries to 100 wineries in that four year period. The world was crying for enologists, um, because all these people like your father, um, had moved out here and had a big intention, but didn't really know how to make wine and they needed, there was suddenly a, a need for the technical class. So ... I, I spent a year thinking about it. Um, I got a job at Christian Brothers, and which was then the biggest winery in Napa as a, you know, a union, union racker and blender (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
And that was the, that's where CIA Greystone is, correct? Was that or is that one of it?
John Kongsgaard:
That, that was them also, but this was the kind of factory that now belongs to Sutter home that north of Louis Martini.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah, it looks like an oil refinery.
Doug Shafer:
Uh, (laughs).
John Kongsgaard:
Anyway, I worked there just 'cause I had to get a job, and I made enough money to go knock around Europe, uh, on a Eurail pass, uh, for a year listening to mostly listening to classical music. And in that year was my debate. Am I gonna be a winemaker and go back to college and learn all this stuff? Or am I gonna stay in the ivory tower and become an academic? And by the time the year was over, I had figured out that I would go back. And so I went, uh, a year and a half to Monterey Peninsula College to study, uh, the prereqs.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
And then I had six months at Napa College. And so with two years of, of going back to junior college basically to get the science I got to Davis as a graduate student.
Doug Shafer:
So what year was that?
John Kongsgaard:
I guess I got into Davis in, uh, '75.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. So that, so you're-
John Kongsgaard:
76. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. So I was there, I started '75 as a freshman. So our paths never crossed. Um...
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. You were a little kid.
Doug Shafer:
I was little kid and, uh, the only time I crossed paths with a bunch of folks in your generation of winemakers was uh, Dr. Cook's vit 110 class, I think it was.
John Kongsgaard:
Oh yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know, I took, I think I took that as a junior. I don't think you were in it. Tony Sodor was in it, Dick Ward and-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Jeff Corison.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Almost.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
They were, yeah. They were sitting in front. I was sitting back messing around. But-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... he was a, he was a character (laughs).
John Kongsgaard:
Yes he was.
Doug Shafer:
Anyway. Okay. Well good. So you were, so you got out at grad school, and then what about your folks? Were they into, what were they, what'd they think about you getting into wine?
John Kongsgaard:
Uh, I think they were just barely open-minded let's say. It was, it was okay with them, but they thought I should have gone to law school I think, but-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
... Martha, my little sister did that. We tricked her and made her do it.
Doug Shafer:
I remember that she did. Yeah. She did go to law school. I remember that.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. You tricked her, God it’s terrible, siblings.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
All right. So you... All right. So you, you get outta Davis, um...
John Kongsgaard:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
And uh, but wait a minute, I think. Did you meet Maggie at Davis?
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Well actually we met just before Davis.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
But we, we, we met when we were at Napa Community College, and it's a very sweet story. Uh, I'm still quite ferociously dyslexic. So I was, I was in the organic chem lab trying to put together a cash still or something, some apparatus with a drawing in front of me and all these glass parts. And I, I just couldn't do it. I was all coming out backwards. And Maggie, Maggie came like an angel. Uh, I didn't know her at all. It just came like a benign force across the lab and, you know-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
... took the thing out of my hands and put it all together. (laughs) And, and I mean that was it. That was the moment. Uh, it was amazing.
Doug Shafer:
Oh wow. That's great.
John Kongsgaard:
So we had a, our romance started at the, it's funny because we were... the community college is a wonderful force in the community and I'm a big supporter of it, but it was always the threat. Like if you really screwed up in high school, like you're just gonna go to the junior college son.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
So there I was already a successful academic, but back at the junior college (laughs)-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
... and there was Maggie who was reinventing herself also, she'd been a fine art undergrad and she wanted to go to Davis for horticulture. Um, so we were both doing our prereqs together and then went to Davis together and by the end of my grad school we were, uh, we were a couple.
Doug Shafer:
... and carried on and got married and the rest is history.
John Kongsgaard:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
John Kongsgaard:
That's it. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So meanwhile though, you're, um, you mentioned Andre Tchelistcheff who lived down the street.
John Kongsgaard:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
So you guys got to be good friends, which was how, how neat (laughs) how neat for you.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer: And I-
John Kongsgaard:
Fortuitous.
Doug Shafer:
And I know there's another guy who had a big impact 'cause it also plays into my dad's story a little bit. But tell me about Nathan Faye, your relationship with him.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Yeah. So Nathan was a, was a family friend. Uh, obviously, uh, your neighbor there. Uh, he, I think was the first, maybe the first grower that maybe the first Cabernet grower in the whole Stags Leap area. So Nathan was a family friend. His British wife was, uh, the, kind of the founder of the Napa Symphony-
... and she had a soft spot for me 'cause I was a music person and anyway, so I got to know them pretty well through my family, even before I was interested in wine. And then in '75, I guess I was still at the community college the year before I went to Davis, uh, Nathan, uh, helped me make my first ever barrel of wine.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
John Kongsgaard:
And that was interestingly enough it was Atlas Peak grapes where I am now. It was from the Mead ranch and Nathan was a fantastic home brewer. I mean the legendary home winemaker. And he, um, invited me to join him to buy and, and go in on a ton of Zinfandel from, from the Meade ranch. So 75 Meade Zin was my first ever barrel of wine.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
John Kongsgaard:
And, and then while I was at graduate-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
... school in '76, 7 and 8, uh, Nathan, uh, sold me at the kind of family discount, uh, half a ton of Cabernet every year. So the first, the first great wine I ever made was ‘76 Fay Cabernet.
Doug Shafer:
Oh wow.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And was that, and the stories I've heard and you've got, I think you were part of this. There were a bunch of you guys that came over from Davis.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And Nathan, you, Nathan.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I don't know how, how it started, but there was like this, you guys would come over and pick grapes, he'd let you take, make wine then you'd spend the weekend and basically-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... you know, have, he was drinking.
John Kongsgaard:
He was drink a lot of -
Doug Shafer:
... good wines. He was your guy. Right?
John Kongsgaard:
Yes. He was our, he was our mentor. So that was in, in '70... in '77 I think it was, uh, while I was at Davis, Nathan, um, allowed me to get a whole, any, any number of my friends could come in on this deal. And we each got a half a ton of grapes and we went back to our graduate school garages. Like in my case I had a little home brew winery barn at my parents' place. So it was Jack Stewart and uh, me and, uh, Dan Lee and Tom Peterson. Mike Fisher, who became an accountant.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
John Kongsgaard:
Wine accountant. Uh, that was more or less the group. Oh, and Dick Ward.
Doug Shafer:
And Dick ward. Yeah.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. So we all, we all made our wine that year and, uh, it was a, it was, it was '77. It was the second of the drought vintages. And Nathan said, (laughs) "Hope you guys are getting smart in school 'cause I wouldn't know how to make wine out of a stupid year like this."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
But we in fact all made wonderful wine and we, we uh, whoever's left of us, we still have the odd bottle and get together and drink them and it was a great experience. And I think the first wine, most of the, my colleagues ever made was that home brew from Fay.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. That's good.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. And Nathan was our, he was our mentor and our drinking buddy and famous story where we were all, um, getting into his German wine.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
Getting into his German wine cellar and, uh, I think most of us were asleep in the garden. Uh, in other words passed out in the garden-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
... when, when uh, Nellie, Mrs. Fay, came home and she read Nathan the right act. He 'cause of the last man standing, but he was not in great shape either. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
And, and I kind of woke up with one eye and looked at Nathan and he said, "Oh, never mind Nellie. She's just mad she missed all the fun."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Oh...
John Kongsgaard:
Which was not true.
Doug Shafer:
So I've, I've-
Doug Shafer:
Anyway. Yeah. I've heard of this story from different, from some of the, those rag tag group you guys have, but, uh, so jealous, but, um-
John Kongsgaard:
That was fun.
Doug Shafer:
But, but fortunate because I got to know him too. And, um ... I'll tell you, I wanna tell you about him and dad in a minute, but-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But, uh, I do remember Nellie quite well 'cause Liz was a part of the Symphony board. So we-
John Kongsgaard:
Oh yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... I'd end up going to these Symphony fundraiser dinners and-
John Kongsgaard:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
You know, it was Liz's thing. I was, I went along for the ride, but, um, I'd always end up seeing Nathan there.
John Kongsgaard:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And it would be at the end of the dinner and people were milling about, and I'd run over and say, "Hey Nathan, how you doing?" And John without fail, every time he'd look at me and say, "How's it looking this year? How's the crop looking?"
John Kongsgaard:
Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I mean, it was just like, um, how's it looking? How's it looking? You know, is it, um, yeah. Cause he was retired, but he always wanted know about the harvest. So it would be great-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... 'cause we'd talk grapes. And then later after Nellie died, you know, he remarried, uh, Mary Jane, Mary Jane Turnbull.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and I ended up buying Merlot from her, from them.
John Kongsgaard:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And then he died. I bought her grapes for gosh, 20 years. So I got to know Mary-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... Jane really well. And she was this-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah, wonderful.
Doug Shafer:
... sweetheart. So it was really fun. And the dad-Nathan's story. I remember coming home from Davis, this is '77, '78. And dad was thinking about doing a winery and I think he was, he might have even approached you. I think you were in one of those meetings once, but he was trying to get Nathan to be his partner. And I, um...
John Kongsgaard:
Oh, uh-huh.
Doug Shafer:
And I was, we were cleaning out his, some of his files after he died. I found some notes, 'cause he kept everything.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And like, I saw this, you know, uh, he used to take copious notes and pro-con comparisons, do this, do that. But one was specifically about Nathan or having a partner and his, his note to himself was Nathan knows how to make wine. I don't, I don't know (laughs) anything about it.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know, he could be. And I think he really courted Nathan and Nathan finally said, you know, "I just I'm happy growing grapes. I really don't wanna get in the wine business." So...
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah, that's it.
Doug Shafer:
But, um, I remember that pretty clearly, so-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... good stuff. But meanwhile, you start making wine. What was, when you got out of the garage making it, where'd you, what was your, what's your life history there?
John Kongsgaard:
My first ever job was, uh, 19, vintage '79. Maggie and I were just married and my pal from, one of my pals from Davis, Doug Noll who's a Zinfandel maker now.
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
John Kongsgaard:
Doug and I, uh, convinced some, uh, investment group in, uh, Healdsburg to hire us to build them and then, uh, make, build a winery and make the wine for them. So it was a place called Balverne. And it was a short-lived thing. It was a bunch of good enthusiastic guys who maybe their business sense wasn't what we thought it might be. But it was a great opportunity for these two... You know, we was really the one-eyed leading the blind. We ... we were, (laughs) we, we, we were pretty green.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
John Kongsgaard:
But you know, there was a big need for winemakers. So we cut our teeth, Doug and I did there and that, that was just lasted for a couple years and then the winery, I think they decided it was a bad idea and sold the vineyard and the winery to somebody else.
And right when it was starting to crash, that seemed like this opportunity was gonna come to an end. I was just fortuitously courted by, uh, Peter and Sua Newton to come out and take over, uh, at the Newton Winery in St. Helena. This is after Peter ran Sterling, founded Sterling and ran it for all those years and then sold it. And with the cash from that decided to build himself a smaller more boutiquey place. Got it up on the, on the bottom of just part way up Spring Mountain.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
So that was my, that was my first really big deal job.
Doug Shafer:
And that was, uh, when was that? Ninety...
John Kongsgaard:
That was the first vintage was '83.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
I, I did what you're not supposed to do. I got a new job, a new house and a new kid, all in the same week actually.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
John Kongsgaard:
'Cause Maggie was, Maggie was pregnant with Alex.
Doug Shafer: Oh.
John Kongsgaard:
And, and this thing came up and I dove on it and anyway, we all survived it. Um, yeah. So I worked there from, from seventy, no, sorry. From '83, and '83 until '95. So 13 vintages.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. You were, you were there a long time. You were the guy at Newton and help me out. Um, that's when you started doing the unfiltered Chard, am I right?
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
So, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Right. No, you succe- this was, people don't know this right now. This, everybody out there. John Kongsgaard started doing something we thought he was a crazy man. He was making Chardonnay and not filtering it. And that was, you just did not do that. Trust me. 'Cause I've had to rebottle wines. You know, you gotta filter white wine. You're outta your mind if you don't and all of a sudden this thing's, it's gorgeous wine, it's getting great reviews and Kongsgaard's up there in Newton making this thing called unfiltered Chardonnay, it's blowing up around the country. Everybody loves it. And we're all going, "How do you do that? You can't do that. You can't do that." So I, I really want to, can you tell me this story? How did this happen?
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Peter, my good fortune. I mean, I had many great things happen while I was at Newton, but the best part of it was that, uh, Peter was a Brit. Um, and he expected me to go to Europe on his nickel every year for two weeks for like a research mission.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
So I was, at Newton we made Bordeaux varieties, Cabernet Merlot, and then we made Chardonnay and a little bit of some Sauvignon Blanc, but so I would each year I would go either to Bordeaux or Burgundy. Um, this is starting in '83 or four.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
John Kongsgaard:
And I discovered, so, you know, I did my research. I had a big wine budget for Peter. I was obliged to spend, you know, thousands of dollars a month on European wine that were, we thought to be like the antecedence of what we were trying to do at Newton.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
So I did my white Burgundy study and then picked the places I wanted to visit. And then over the years repeatedly went to, you know, Bona de maitre and Lafon and Costa Rea and all the great places. Chobar. And in that time, um, California wine was just like a, like a joke in France.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
John Kongsgaard:
They just, they were so not threatened by some curious 30 something year old winemaker coming around-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
... uh, asking questions (laughs) like, you know, vin du Californie, like really? (laughs) You make wine in California? That's funny.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
So yeah. Okay. Just let me know what you're doing here. Anyway. So it was a, it were, they were very open.
Doug Shafer:
That's pretty funny. Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Very, very encouraging. And so I realized, uh, on, after several trips to, to White Burgundy, that they were doing things very differently from how we were taught at Davis.
Doug Shafer: Right.
John Kongsgaard:
And among those things was that, um, they were not adding yeast.
Doug Shafer: Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
They were, they were, uh, fermenting the wine in barrel. They were, um, leaving it in barrel for, the great places were leaving the wine in the barrel for two years. Like the way we made Cabernet.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
And nobody, nobody in Napa had or California had thought of that yet.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
So I came back with my research notes and we thought, "Okay, let's try it." So starting in the, in the late eighties, I think the first year we did it was ‘88.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
Um, on, on an experimental basis. And, uh, the wine was a little, so it was two years in barrel, no, no yeast, uh, spontaneous malolactic.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
John Kongsgaard:
Long aging in the, in the cold cave, uh, and then bottled, but you don't need to filter the wine if you have the patience to leave it in the barrel for two years.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
John Kongsgaard:
And it's, let's say microbiologically stable.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
John Kongsgaard:
It's been all the way th- all the sugars fermented and all the malic acid is turned into lactic acid.
Doug Shafer:
Yes, exactly. So it's, yeah.
John Kongsgaard:
So then the wine is, it's, it's stable. It's not gonna ferment any further.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
So, so, but the wine is just a little tiny bit hazy. And so we did a bottling, uh, of two year age wine, two-year age Chardonnay, uh, one, one little part of it filtered and the other most big part of it not filtered. And then I went around the country to all of Newton's wholesalers and did a, a, uh, did blind tastings. Or I just said here's two wines, they're pretty similar, but you tell me which one they want.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
Which one you like. And it could have been at a wholesaler with very sophisticated staff. It could have been with one of these, you know, booze-driven, uh, companies where they're ba- basically liquor salesman peddling some wine.
So I, I tasted maybe a dozen wholesalers, um, with the full staff, you know, the Friday tasting when everybody comes in and gets lectured by the winemakers and the-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
... whiskey people and so on. Anyway and I said, "Okay, you choose, which one do you like?" And just to the one, everybody liked the wine that was not filtered.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
John Kongsgaard:
Better than the other one. I mean, not by a lot, but it was always, it was always the case. And then I said, "Okay, now really look at it. Hold it up to the light. And if it's, uh, do you see that the one you liked is just a little bit hazy." And I'd already won their hearts, they said, "Ah, never mind that."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
And so we had the, we had the courage then to do it. So 1990 was the first not-filtered. Um, I mean, unfiltered is the wrong word. What's that we said? But it was the first not-filtered two-year aged, uh, white wine bottled in the country I'm sure.
Doug Shafer:
Oh. And it, it just, and it blew up. Right? That's my recollection.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was a, it was a huge success and then suddenly everybody wanted to learn how to do it and I had the pleasure at Newton and then, uh, later on, but especially at Newton, I had the pleasure of having a, a lot of apprentices. Um...
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
John Kongsgaard:
You know, some of the known characters in the business who are just a little younger than I am, uh, they all came and learned how to do it and that, that, uh, message has been passed around the country. And now it's, it's, uh, not, so it's not so unusual.
Doug Shafer:
Exactly.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Well, you're, you're a good man to share. Thank you for that. Which is-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Which is kind of Napa Valley, starting with Robert Mondavi.
John Kongsgaard:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
Um, and were you, were you, is this when you met Michel Roland? Was he working with you up at Newton?
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Yeah. Roland who's now of course of the most famous of consultants. Um, I was his first, uh, I, we used to say, uh, humorously. I was his first victim, uh, in the country.
Doug Shafer:
What was that like?
John Kongsgaard:
I actually, yeah, it was great.
Doug Shafer:
How'd that, how'd that happen? How'd you guys find Roland or vice versa?
John Kongsgaard:
We, we, we found him in Bordeaux, Peter and Sua Newton and I were, were looking around in Bordeaux to, to try to bring a consultant, uh, to help us with the Bordeaux side. And so we got on to Michel, he was a, had a big consulting practice, uh, in Bordeaux at that time. And when he came, he, he worked for us and for, when Harlan and Levy were Maryvale before Harlan.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
So it was, it was, um, maybe they were in the second year, but anyway, the, the first really three of us, were, was, um, Harlan, Levy, and then he did a little work for Zelma Long at, uh, Simi in those days.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
And it was a blast. He was so fun. He just blew my mind. Like all the things that I got to unlearn when Michel came. Like well, why don't we push the ripeness a little bit? How about this crop is way too heavy. Okay. Michel would say in his bad English, he'd say, "Can we do something?" I'd say like, "What do you wanna do?" We wanna put half of this crop on the ground. I said, "Oh yeah. Okay. I'm gonna tell Tony Truchard to drop half his crop."
Doug Shafer: Yeah.
John Kongsgaard:
No, I don't think so.
Doug Shafer:
No, no. (laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
Anyway, so it evolved because of Michel. I think another, if I have two things that I did in the wine business in Napa that would, I might be remembered for one was this white wine, um, making non-technique of two year aging in no, no filtre.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
John Kongsgaard:
And the other thing is that, um, Peter and I basically invented the so-called acreage contract.
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah.
John Kongsgaard:
Because Rolland said you gotta get half of these, you gotta go down to three tons of the acre from five. And, uh, then your wine will have concentration. And so we-
Doug Shafer:
So yeah. Explain how that works to people, kind of -
John Kongsgaard:
Okay. So the, the grower makes his money by selling a winery, uh, as many tons of grapes as he can. And, uh, per a ton, let's just say tons per acre. And a Napa can grow anywhere between six and all the way down to two. And even a vineyard that wants to grow four tons to the acre probably makes better wine if it's thinned. Uh, if the crop is thinned down to let's say three or two and a half.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
John Kongsgaard:
This was certainly our conviction in that period. So we had of course a lot of blowback from the growers 'cause we were asking them to throw their money on the ground. And so we would say to the grower, "Okay, you think this is a five ton to the acre vineyard." And let's say the Cabernet costs, you know, whatever it is, $5,000 a ton.
Okay. So here's your $25,000 an acre. Here's the check for all the grapes that you want to grow. Now you have to listen to me and I'm gonna tell you to cut off half of the crop in July. And they said, "Why not? It's better for the vine to have less fruit on it." Uh, and it meant we effectively raised the price of the grapes for ourselves, but what we gained was, um, was worth the money.
Doug Shafer:
You bet.
John Kongsgaard:
So that's, that's how we did it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
John Kongsgaard:
So those are, those are what Rolland taught me those things. And it was, it was so funny because in the early days he had, I don't have any French really.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
And Michel had almost no English, but we had Spanish in common.
Doug Shafer:
Oh. (laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
So we, we did our, he would come for three or four days, uh, in the growing season and then he would come again and harvest and then maybe one more time for the tastings when we were making the blends. We did the whole thing in Spanish. Uh, and then with the, then the, uh, owners, Peter and Sua Newton would come and have the tasting with us, which we would have to do in English. And Mrs. Newton would say to the, to the, uh, to Michelle, "What do you think of this one?" He would say, "Not bad."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
"And how about this one?" "Not bad." And then the best one he would say, "Not completely bad." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's great. That's so funny.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. We had it all kind of private to ourselves, but he, he definitely changed the way we thought about wine.
Doug Shafer:
No, he did, he, uh, made a great impact. And um, you know, the ripeness thing was big and that was something we kind of figured out on our own with Tony Soter, helped Elias with me.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But you know, we started, you know, getting past 23 and the wines were just better. They're just richer-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and dark, darker fruit and, and you know, the, the consu- consumers, marketplace recognized it and, and said, "Yeah, keep it up. We love it."
John Kongsgaard:
Yep. Yep.
Doug Shafer:
So off we went.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So good news. So you're up at Newton. Um...
John Kongsgaard:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
Let's see. And I think in the mid-nineties you and, you started doing your own thing with Maggie, right? With Stone Crest Chardonnay, is that-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. So-
Doug Shafer:
Was that the start of Kongsgaard kind of? Is that how that worked?
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Yeah. So in, I was finally, um, ran out of patience working with, uh, Mrs. Newton, who is a, um, controversial character. We'll just leave it at that. I mean, she's still my friend.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
John Kongsgaard:
But we had a hard time working together.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
John Kongsgaard:
We, so, uh, at that point we, that is, so this is now, uh, 2000, no, this is, let's see. ‘96. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. '96.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
John Kongsgaard:
So we, so I left Newton, uh, Peter was, this is in the days before the winemaker could have his little side brand.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
That was just absolutely not happening. And I didn't even bring it up with Peter Newton. Like, "Here's what I wanna do. I wanna start my own winery. Can I use a little corner of the cave or this is-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
... that was out of, out of the question. So I resigned, and, uh, we have to give Maggie the full credit for this because I have, uh, still almost no, but I had then absolutely no business sense. No entrepreneurial zeal. I was perfectly happy to move to another job and run somebody else's winery. Maggie said, "No, no, like we can figure this out." So with her courage, uh, and with no money, uh, we started Kongsgaard in, uh, '96.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
And the, the way we managed it was, I got a job at Luna, uh, in Napa, which was just forming and they needed a, they needed a known name winemaker. Somebody who could help them finish the building. I knew about construction.
Uh, and part of my deal was that I would be able to make my wine under their roof just as part of my compensation. So that's, that's how we were going.
Doug Shafer:
That's, you know, I never knew, 'cause I remember you went to Luna. It was like, I was...
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It was a head scratcher. Why is he doing that?
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. That's the reason.
John Kongsgaard:
Well it was, it was perfect. 'Cause there was no competition. Luna was Mike Moon and George Vare.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
And they wanted to make Italian, uh, Cal-Ital.
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
John Kongsgaard:
So I had to learn how to make Pinot Grigio and Sangiovese which was a lot of fun and a lot more trips to Europe, uh-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
... different parts of Europe. Um, so I was not really competing them, with them by making Chardonnay. And at the same time we started the brand Arietta which was sort of the Cabernet leg of my endeavor with our partner, Fritz Hatton. So Arietta and Kongsgaard were born under the roof of Luna, uh, where we didn't have to pay rent. Um, and I stayed there for five years. Um, I also had started a consultancy at that time because I needed the Luna paycheck plus a little more money to keep the ship afloat while we rent-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
... for the first bottles to come out the other end of the winery. So, yeah, so I was at Luna for five years and it was, that was a great job. It was so fun to make, I mean, Parker said, this is the greatest Pinot Gri in the new world. Like that was pretty easy (laughs) to say 'cause there were only like three of us but...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
... anyway, it was fun. It was a great job.
Doug Shafer:
Well it sounds like it. Cause you're-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... you got, you know, you're starting your own thing. You're starting with some, with Fritz Hatton, Arietta and you're you're playing, playing with Sangiovese and Pinot Grigio, Pinot Gri.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I mean-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... that would be fun.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
What a gas.
John Kongsgaard:
A good time. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. That's good to know. Well, I drive by that building all the time. So now I'll-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... I'll have a different attitude when I go by there. That's, that's good.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And then, now, jumping, jumping, uh, subjects here, but talk to me because chamber music and the classical music is so much a part of your life. Is that something that was going on the whole time or did it, did it get put on-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... hold when you had kids or this job or that job? How's that work?
John Kongsgaard:
So there was a, there's a wonderful guy, uh, who was a lawyer at, in Napa called Dick Lemon. Uh, he was at DPNF for a long time. And so Dick, uh, founded chamber music. He was the, he was the kind of acquisitions lawyer, um, helping people buy and sell wineries. And he helped Clo du Val get off the ground.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
Speaking of the Stags Leap neighborhood. And so the French owners said we'd like to do something for the community. Um, what would you advise us to do Dick Lemon, our lawyer? And he said, "Well, I've always wanted to start a chamber music concert series in Napa." And they said, that's great. That's kind of Europe. That, we'd love to get behind that. So Clo du Val was the original sponsor, and it started in 1980. And Maggie and I moved back over here to take the Newton job in '83, I started going to the concerts. We, we started going to the concerts and, uh, Dick was all very inspired but didn't actually know that much about the music he was trying to put on. And so I, over the few years went from just sort of writing the program notes to actually taking over the artistic administration.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
John Kongsgaard:
So by, by say '85 I was completely in charge of the, everything except the sales and you know, the admin. So yeah, it was great. It was great opportunity for me because not, it's one thing to love music and it's another level of thrill to put on concerts. And now the thing is in its chamber music in Napa valley is just started its 41st year. And-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
John Kongsgaard:
... we, we bring the very, very best people in the world. Um, solo pianists and cellists and string quartets and opera singers. And that's just become the absolute center of my life. I mean, I make wine to, uh, for equal, equal pleasure in my life is running the winery, but the music thing is really an extra special part of it. And at this point it's 10 concerts a year and whoever they are, if it's a string quartet from Prague or a pianist from Moscow, uh, they come and stay with us up on the mountain and we have a nice piano in our music room. And so, uh, that's really become a big, big part of my life.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's great. That's wonderful.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. And fun.
Doug Shafer:
And, and, uh, do you still, I, I heard that you play classical music in your barrel rooms and caves to your wines.
John Kongsgaard:
Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
John Kongsgaard:
Absolutely. Yeah. Somebody asked me does the, does the music influence the wine? And I say it influences the winemaker and the winemaker makes the wine.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I love it. Yeah. I'm good. So, all right. So you're cranking along the Luna days. And then at some point you move on from Luna 'cause, yeah, 'cause you guys, 'cause you built your, your current winery Konsgaard up on the hill, up on Atlas peak, is that correct?
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Yeah. So the history, so I was at Luna for five years and it was kind of my deal when I signed up for that job that I told my, my colleagues, Mike Moon especially, um, that if Kongsgaard flies I'll be gone in five years.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
And I'll commit to you for five years and then if Kongsgaard fails I'll stay here. And anyway, fortunately for us, things went very well. And so after five years we, uh, Arietta and Kongsgaard, left Luna and we leased a winery in St. Helena. We just got an empty winery and, um, so we, we were at, that was the Boswell which burned down recently.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
We, so we were at Boswell for, uh, for five more years. So that got us to, to, well, whatever year that was, um...
Doug Shafer:
Probably mid 2000s I think, something like that.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Mid 2000s. So we, we, we, um, five years at Luna, five years at Boswell. And then, um, we thought at that point, you know, maybe we're, maybe somebody will loan us some money. Um...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
(laughs) And so we thought, okay, now's the time to make the move. And we found, searched the valley for, in the hills for a property where we could dig a cave, build a house, and have a vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
John Kongsgaard:
So that ended up the, in this amazing property on the top of Atlas peak we were looking out at the bay on one side and you can see from the winery, you can see the Golden Gate Bridge and the Sierras.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
John Kongsgaard:
It's just an, it's just (laughs) an amazing mountain top here.
Doug Shafer:
Geez.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Fantastic.
John Kongsgaard:
I had made, I had made some Cabernet, uh, in the, in the Luna days. I had made some Cabernet from the adjoining property. So we knew the grapes would be good from up here.
Doug Shafer:
Great. So you guys, so that was-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah, ‘90, ‘90, uh, 2004.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
2004 we, we bought this 150 acres up on Atlas Peak of just virgin land. There's nothing here. Um, and we, we dug a cave which was completed by the, in time for the ‘90 or the 2006 vintage. And then we started planting. We now have 14 acres of grapes up here and a lovely house to live in. So it's kind of all on the same property now finally.
Doug Shafer:
Nice. I got it. Um, I've got a confession to make. Um, I've never spent much time up on Atlas Peak.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Maybe, you know, I went up to Glen's, Glen, Antinori's place-
John Kongsgaard:
Glen Salva.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Glen's place for a Sangiovese thing 20 years ago. And then-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... you know, this was a, this past harvest was, you know, small crop, big, small crop. You know, we saw it in June.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Elias does his thing. He goes, we're short. I say goodbye. I don't see him for two weeks. And he goes everywhere looking, looking for grapes. And-
John Kongsgaard:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... you know, because we gotta, gotta get more fruit. And he ended up in Atlas Peak, someone's told him about something and we actually, God, we bought grapes from two or three people up there. So then he, you know, it's getting close to harvest. So he drags me up one day he says, "You need to go see this pla- I gotta show you where these vineyards are." (laughs) 'Cause you gotta-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause I'm, I'm his, I'm his big sample guy. So, you know, go sample here.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
John. Absolu - I've really never been up there too much. My God, you know, you look across to Pritchard Hill, I think that's where you can see that.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's absolutely stunning. So-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I was blown away. It's just beautiful.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And um...
John Kongsgaard:
It's a dead e- it's a dead end road. And so, you know, if you could drive through and come out on Pritchard Hill, which you can on a Jeep road. Uh, people would know about it, but it's, it's really a kind of one of the sacred backwaters and you get way up here and it feels like you're in cattle country in the 1920s.
Doug Shafer:
Exactly.
John Kongsgaard:
That's great.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. It's like that Montana thing. It's gorgeous.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, um, so I, I am gonna come see you. I don't care. I'll let you know.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I'll call, I'll call first, but I'm gonna come see you.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Great.
Doug Shafer:
And then, uh, you've had, you've got something fun going on Alex, your son joined you at some point. Tell me about that.
Yes. Yeah. Okay. Great. My, my son Alex who's, uh, I'm 70 and he's 38. And so, uh, he, he just grew up with me in the Jeep, changing the irrigation-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
... at Newton and so on. So he, he's a farm boy and he, a kind of a green thumb and loves to make things and build things. And so he was kind of a natural to be helping. Uh, and he does a lot of things. He's a boat builder and a surfer and a, he, he has a lot of interests.
Uh, but he started helping us about 15 years ago. Kind of be around for harvest and show up for bottling and otherwise he's working in a boatyard or all kind of different things. And then, uh, we had the bad fortune of, of Maggie getting, uh, quite ill about 12 years ago. And he did the right thing as one wou- as you hope your kid would and said, "You can take care of mom and I, but I can take care of the wine."
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
John Kongsgaard:
So that, that was 2011.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
John Kongsgaard:
Like the most challenging vintage year-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Yeah. That was, that was a memorable one.
John Kongsgaard:
... of our lives.
Doug Shafer:
Gotcha. No kidding.
John Kongsgaard:
Good luck buddy. Yeah. And he made, he made magnificent wine then. And so on and off over the next 10 years, I was more or less, uh, helping him depending on how it was going with the other, the Maggie project.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
John Kongsgaard:
Uh, so he really became, he really took over the production and he runs The Judge vineyard. He actually owns The Judge vineyard now, he's just inherited that from me ahead of my, ahead of me going to the grave. Um, so we're total partners now and-
Doug Shafer: Great.
John Kongsgaard:
... I'm back working with him. And so it's a terrific setup. It's just-
Doug Shafer:
How fun.
John Kongsgaard:
It's what, it's what people dream of-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
... and it's happening to me. Yeah. It's great.
Doug Shafer:
Good for you. So tell me, what are you guys making? What, what flavors with Kongsgaard?
John Kongsgaard:
So we have the, let's say in a typical year for a round number we make 3,500 cases. Out of that 2,000 and something is the so-called Napa valley Chardonnay. And that's from grapes purchased on long term acreage contracts from primarily from Lee Hudson and Larry Hyde in Carneros.
Doug Shafer:
Two great ones. Great growers.
John Kongsgaard:
Two great ones. Yeah. The two best-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
John Kongsgaard:
... custom growers in, in Carneros. And my old friends Lee and I go back to Davis days together.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.
John Kongsgaard:
And I, I bought from Larry Hyde all the way and Lee all the way through the Newton time. So we're old, old colleagues. Um, so that's the Napa Chardonnay. And then the other Chardonnay's called The Judge. I talked about that at the-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
... top of our discussion. That's from our little, uh, our little family property, uh, east of Napa, also in the hills, very, very low production. Kind of a super austere one ton to the acre site. So that, that's The Judge. That would be three or 400 cases only.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
'Cause that's all we can get off of those five acres. Um, and then we make, uh, a few hundred cases of Syrah from Hudson. And maybe 500 cases of Cabernet from up here, grown on the ranch and uh, uh, on Atlas Peak and then from our, our kitty corner neighbor.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
John Kongsgaard:
So that's the run. And then we make a, we make a almost non-commercial amount of Albarino and Viognier. Just for our pleasure. I mean, we sell them to the mailing list, but that's tiny production, couple barrels.
Doug Shafer:
Hey, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta ask you something. Uh, Lee's Syrah down Carneros.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Um, 'cause we, we, we grow some Syrah up, you know, around, uh, Oaknoll, up just south of Stags Leap.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's beautiful. It's great. It's Relentless. It's all that.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Um, but we started buying some, uh, Syrah from Tony Truchard, which is kind of Carneros.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And I don't know man, John, I, it seems to me, correct me if I'm wrong, but I finally got pepper. I got pepper out of-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Tony's stuff.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So the, is that what you're getting out of Lees? You get more pepper and spice?
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah, I think it's, I think it's because Truchard and Hudson are, are similar in that they are they're in Carneros and so it's therefore it's much colder-
Doug Shafer:
Colder.
John Kongsgaard:
... than it is than Oaknoll or where-
Doug Shafer:
Right, Stags Leap.
John Kongsgaard:
... you guys are. Right. Yeah. Um, so I think you can have that attractive, uh, Rhone-ish aroma, if you grow it in a cold place, but mostly where it's cold down in Carneros the soil's not so interesting for Syrah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that's true.
John Kongsgaard:
And so at Truchard and at Hudson you have these little volcanic areas where it's not the normal Carneros clay or shale.
Doug Shafer:
Good point.
John Kongsgaard:
So that's to me, that's to me is the magic. If you can-
Doug Shafer:
That's a good point. Yeah. Because we're, we're toying with the idea of planting some Syrah on Red Shoulder. We got, you know, a couple blocks of-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, um, but we're, we'll probably play with it. We know, you know, to, to get it ripe we might have to drop crop, you know, to, and really go light. But I really want that pepper, I'm just dying for it. So-
John Kongsgaard:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
All right.
John Kongsgaard:
That, that, that's the formula. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Well, thanks for the free advice. Send me a bill. (laughs)
John Kongsgaard:
Sure. Yep.
Doug Shafer:
And best place. If people wanna find your wines, how do they do it? They gotta drive up the road. How can they do it electronically?
John Kongsgaard:
No, we, we don't... We're, yeah. Electronically. We're, we are, we made a point when we got our permit, uh, that we are absolutely not allowed to have the public come here.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
So this is truly private winery. Um, we got through all the first years, um, all the wine going away without ever having to receive anybody when I was working at Luna would have been inappropriate to have Kongsgaard customers there.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
So anyway, we managed without ever, uh, having to do a tasting, um, or see anybody. I think we're unique in the wine business is that we really hardly know our customers. Um ... Anyway, that's means we can be farmers and not PR guys. Um, so the way to get the wine is to, um, join our mailing list on- online.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
So you just look at, you look at Kongsgaardwine.com. I mean just Kongsgaard. It'll come up. And we have, uh, there are a lot of wineries in Napa that are very exclusive, and I like to think of ourselves as inclusive. So whoever signs up for our mailing list can buy something at least in the, in the next year.
Doug Shafer:
Oh great.
John Kongsgaard:
And we it's a, it's an annual offering. It's not some made up endless, um, fake waiting list like a lot of our funny colleagues. It's like ... We want you to buy our wine.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
John Kongsgaard:
So, anyway, you might have to wait a couple of years before you can get your four bottles of The Judge and that sort of thing. Those, the, that's quite allocated. But anyway, that's, that's how it works. And so we're, we, we sell, you know, most of the wine to the annual offering to our so-called mailing list. It's an email thing now. Uh, and then the rest goes all over the world, um, to restaurants.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
John Kongsgaard:
So you can find us in the best places on all continents. Here, here and there.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Good to know. All right my friend, I've taken enough of your time, but thanks for taking the time with us today. That was great. Great to talk to you. Great to hear these stories.
John Kongsgaard:
It was a pleasure.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
John Kongsgaard:
Let's get together for a drink one of these days.
Doug Shafer:
You bet man. All right.
John Kongsgaard:
Great. Okay.
Doug Shafer:
Best to you John. Thanks again.
John Kongsgaard:
Righto.
Doug Shafer:
See you.
John Kongsgaard:
Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
You bet.
John Kongsgaard:
Bye-bye.
Doug Shafer:
Bye.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Hey, everybody. Doug Shafer with another episode of The Taste. We have a fun show today where I have two guests on at the same time. And it's, it's really kinda cool because this combination is something exactly that happened in my life with my father. Uh, a vineyard winery run by a parent and child, um, which I know well, but we welcome Delia Viader and her son, Alan of Viader Winery up on Howell mountain, god's country. Hi guys. Welcome.
Delia Viader:
Thank you. Thank you for having us.
Doug Shafer:
You bet-
Alan Viader:
Hey Doug. Good morning.
Doug Shafer:
Delia, I've known you for a long time. Alan, our paths are just starting to cross here and there, which has been fun, but quite, quite-
Alan Viader:
Dude, literally I see you driving, uh, your FJ40 pretty much every day.
Doug Shafer:
Argh-
Alan Viader:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
... you know, I, I made a mistake getting that car. Everybody knows me-
Alan Viader:
[crosstalk 00:00:57]-
Doug Shafer:
... so I have, I have to really behave on the road. I can't... No, no road rage for me, but, uh, Delia, my best memories of you is whenever I'd run into you, you'd be coming back from some trip, uh, out of country overseas with your export group, and you'd grab me and say, "Oh, Doug, your dad, your dad and I, we always just dance wherever we are." So, you know, that's, that's my best memory about you and my dad dancing around the world.
Delia Viader:
And that's my best memory of your dad, his sense of humor. And yes, he's a fantastic dancer.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Yeah, I didn't get that gene, unfortunately. So, uh, I'm glad you danced with him-
Alan Viader:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
... and not me, but super to have you both on. There's so many stories wrapped up in the Viader story. The- Delia, there's yours. There's your folks. Alan, there's yours. We're gonna make our way through all of it, Alan. I'm sorry, to start off, we're gonna start with your mom. So, bear with us for a bit, all right?
Alan Viader:
(laughing) Please.
Doug Shafer:
So, Delia, um, where it all started. Where'd you come from? Where, where'd you start? Where were you born?
Delia Viader:
I was born in Buenos Aires, Argentina, but I might well have come from Mars. Um-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Delia Viader:
... I actually, I'm first generation born in Argentina because my parents both European met there and um, the rest is history. My father was a diplomat, so I learned in this country that I am literally a diplomat's brat, um, because we moved so many times and I lived and traveled to so many countries. Since I was six years old, I was taken traveling. So yes, it's true. You were always seeing me coming and going because in the first days of the winery, I was traveling every other week of the year. That's 192 days.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Delia Viader:
That's how I racked a million and a half-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Delia Viader:
... um, flying miles.
Doug Shafer:
So, as a kid, uh, I know I've got notes you were in Lebanon, Switzerland, France. Um, any, any place else growing up? Is there-
Delia Viader:
Well I went to a German boarding school and then I went to college in Paris. Um, my parents have properties a little bit everywhere. And I managed to get by with six languages all of which I speak with a, with a little bit of an accent 'cause I mix them all.
Doug Shafer:
That's amazing. Well, 'cause I know when I was talking to, about you do Elias just a minute he goes, "Oh yeah. Delia is great. Whenever I see her, all we do is start talking Spanish. It's great." So, um, he's never heard you speak English. It's pretty cute. Um-
Delia Viader:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
... so growing up, growing up in the house, um, was wine around. Um, when did that all happen-
Delia Viader:
It happened growing up because, uh, like I said, my parents were European so the way of, um, upbringing it's wine is always part of the food, uh, part of the table. So, uh, if you wanted to try it, there was never a question. Uh, you needed to be old enough to be at the table to hold conversation. Um, and after that it was simply, you wanna try this? You wanna try that. It was never a question of you need to be of age. Um, it was a big, uh, complication when I brought my kids as toddlers to the United States and I intended to, uh, raise them the same way I grew up. I had to have a little bit of a precaution. A caveat I would always tell my kids in the elementary school, whatever we do at home, don't tell anybody-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)-
Delia Viader:
... because otherwise mom is gonna be put on jai- in jail.
Doug Shafer:
So what goes on at home, stays at home. I kind- I like that.
Delia Viader:
It stays at home because I will let my kids try wines, uh, because I love, I'll always love wine, but I, I'm inquisitive about everything and anything. So, I, my inspiration was find out why, find out, find out what makes this wine taste the way it tastes. And that was not an in- invitation to drink early on. It was an invitation to be inquisitive-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Delia Viader:
... about things.
Doug Shafer:
Good point. So, before heading to The States, you were in school in Paris and you got a degree in Logic and Pure Math-
Delia Viader:
Philosophy.
Doug Shafer:
Philosophy?
Delia Viader:
Yeah. Philosophy.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. 'Cause I've got a note saying Pure mathematics. Was that something you got a degree in too?
Delia Viader:
Yes. My, what you call a concentration or a major-
Doug Shafer:
I see.
Delia Viader:
... is Logic and Pure Mathematics, but the degree is a PhD.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, fantastic. So then-
Delia Viader:
So, doctorate.
Doug Shafer:
... so then, so then you've got three kids, it's 1982-
Delia Viader:
Four.
Doug Shafer:
Four. How did, how'd you-
Delia Viader:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
... how'd you get to the United States? How did that happen
Delia Viader:
My brother, uh, got accepted to, uh, a PhD program at MIT and at that time it was just the perfect timing for me. I was recently divorced and had the three kids in tow at that time and I asked my dad, if you give me room and board for three years, I'll get myself there. And he says, you haven't even applied to MIT. "Oh, but I'm gonna get in."
Doug Shafer:
(laughing).
Delia Viader:
Um, that has always been my philosophy in life. I visualize it and I get it done. It, and I did get in and actually I blasted my GMATs. Um, so it was interesting because without the help of my brother, helping with the kids, um, it would not have been possible, but I moved everybody to MIT, they do take blondes sometimes. And, um, I managed to get a degree in Finance this time, a real working degree.
Doug Shafer:
Right. So, when you finished up with MIT, what, what happened then?
Delia Viader:
We constantly kept coming to Napa because my brother liked, uh, the Berkeley lab more than the MIT lab. He's an engineer in electronics so he was working for IBM at the time, so that's, we kept coming to Napa and I met, uh, a lot of people in Napa wine business. And it was, um, kind of very circuitous at that time that a friend, of a friend, of a friend- ... wanted my dad to, uh, invest in a beautiful place and put all the money and they were going to create a winery and a vineyard. And I said, "Dad, if you're putting all the money, I can do it."
Doug Shafer:
(laughing) Oh, Oh boy. I wanna hear this conversation. Yeah, you can do it. And what'd he say to you? (laughs).
Delia Viader:
He said to me, after all the money I poured into your education, all you want to become is a farmer?
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Yeah. But being a farmer's tough. He didn't know that, did he?
Delia Viader:
He didn't know that until the day he died, I was always the farmer. Anyone that asked, "What is it that your daughter does in The States exactly?". "Well, she's a farmer." An overeducated farmer, but I'm, I'm still a farmer.
Doug Shafer:
There you go. So what, what year are we talking about? So, you started... So, basically he, he let you do-
Delia Viader:
'84.
Doug Shafer:
... it right? '84?
Delia Viader:
'84. Yeah. He let me do it. It took me forever to figure out, um, how the regulations work. Uh, but I put together the contract for the land, the financing with my dad as a backup, but, I took a loan, a margin loan at, I mean, I, I had fun and I put together a plan to pay off the note because that was also very important. He would not let me even start without having a plan and without having a precise date when he was coming off the note. So ... I put a 10-year plan and I paid him in seven.
Doug Shafer:
S- so you put a, you put a plan together with... You got a, you got a loan then what about actually-
Delia Viader:
Yup.
Doug Shafer:
... what about doing the work and planting it 'cause there was no vineyard, right? It was all made of-
Delia Viader:
No, there was nothing. There was rock and poison oak (laughing)-
Doug Shafer:
So, so here you are-
Delia Viader:
... which my kids discovered.
Doug Shafer:
... from MIT... Yeah. We all have, we all have learned that one, but MIT, never planned a grapevine. What'd you do? Who helped you out?
Delia Viader:
Oh, I, that was easy. I got the best and foremost consultants from all over the world that I knew of all the vineyards that I liked. I brought Danny Schuster from New Zealand who was an expert in organic vineyard. Hillside planting that helped, David Abreu. I got, uh, Michel Rolland that at that time wasn't even famous. It was just a friend of ours.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Delia Viader:
Um, I brought Jean-Claude Berrouet from Petrus to see what do I plant? How do I plant it? Um, I brought, uh, the best and foremost group of friends that were also experts in their field to diagram a vineyard estate in the same layout of a First Growth Bordeaux. But that wasn't done at that time. And so, I came to be the crazy lady in the hillside.
Doug Shafer:
No, you weren't the crazy lady on the hillside. You were-
Delia Viader:
(laughs)-
Doug Shafer:
... you're that, you're that, you're that (laughs) you're that crazy Argentinian on the hillside. That's what you were? Um, no, that was great. So, you got the vineyard planted. When was your, uh, when was your first harvest?
Delia Viader:
My first, uh, well I couldn't plant the vineyard all at once, uh, because it was so steep and I planted in phases, like everything I did, I never stopped. I divided in little pieces and every year I would do another piece.
Delia Viader:
My very first commercial wine offering was '89.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Delia Viader:
But I didn't really finish planting the vineyard until 1994. It took me almost 10 years. So, like I used to say, this is the dynamite vineyard, because a huge part of it was planted with the help of dynamite at the time that they would let you use it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. They, I don't think they... I think it's... I don't think they let you use it anymore. Do they?
Delia Viader:
No, they-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Delia Viader:
... don't let you use it anymore so Alan has a jackhammer when we're replanting.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Oh, Alan, that's a bummer. Too bad. The Dynamite thing is kinda fun in the dangerous kind of ways but (laughing)-
Alan Viader:
It is.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Um, all right. So, your first vintage is '89, you said. And then, well, you said you studied at Davis too. You were doing that at the same time?
Delia Viader:
Oh, yeah. At the same time, because I wanted to know that my wonderful consultants were telling me, uh, the right thing, you know, how would I know? So, I would put a lot of questions and a lot of, um, a lot of friends tastings and a lot of ideas together. Um, finally I started at Rombauer because I didn't have the winery built yet, with, Jean-Claude Moueix, uh, with, um, Christian Moueix, sorry, Christian Moueix and that was the connection with Jean-Claude, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Delia Viader:
... Berrouet, his winemaker. And, and we started, uh, he was in one floor and I was on the other floor and we were the only ones that spoke French. Um, so it was interesting that, uh, Christian also wanted to attend Davis, so many times we were at the extension classes together making kind of advances into what is done. Remember when they were doing the, um, Davis extension classes with all the professor presenting everything that they were studying and putting their hands on. It was always exciting to see what was new, what was happening-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Delia Viader:
... what is the new, the new contraption that they come up with? Um, the new method of doing this or doing that? Um, remember in '86, '87, '88, we were doing, um, you know, soutirage we were doing it by the skeefs. Um, and not, it would, it was not for the faint of heart or the feeble of, of back composition. It, it was taking us forever. Um, today, Alan puts a little, a little pop and gets it done. One person does it all.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Delia Viader:
Uh, it, it was, it was completely different and it was based in 200 years of technology that the French never had at that time.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.
Delia Viader:
It was tradition.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. It's-
Delia Viader:
So-
Doug Shafer:
... but technology has changed, changed a lot of it. And, uh, you know, for the better, in many cases, but it's, it's definitely more efficient. Uh-
Delia Viader:
It's more efficient.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Quick question going back to planting the vineyard. What was your... because I never talked to you about this. I, I know you, I think you had Cabernet and Cabernet Franc. Was that, was that your focus? Was that your vision when you planned the vineyard? Those grapes-
Delia Viader:
I planted all of, I wanted to plant all the Bordeaux varieties, but everybody, uh, including Michel Rolland and Jean-Claude pushed me against planting Merlot in this vineyard because this, uh, Merlot is very finicky. So I have Cabernet and Cabernet Franc and, uh, Petit Verdot.
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Delia Viader:
I have Petit Verdot in the most rocky, uh, and right in front of my house so I could always see those babies cry for everything-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Delia Viader:
... for lack of water, lack of soil, lack of nutrients. They always look terrible, but they give fantastic grapes.
Doug Shafer:
That's true. That's what usually happens. Okay. I was curious about how that started out. So, when you first start, your first releases, were they-
Delia Viader:
My first release was only Viader. For the first 11 years, it was always a blend of Cabernet and Cabernet Franc. And I didn't know it at that time until we became best friends that I, I, the high proportion of Cabernet Franc in the blend, sometimes 50%, sometimes 45%. It was very similar to what, um, Dalla Valle Maya was made of. And it was only after, and, and just because I love that wine that I knew why.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Delia Viader:
I love Cabernet Franc. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
There you go. So, before we get to Alan, I gotta ask you one thing. So, you're, you've got four kids, you're planting a vineyard, starting to make wine, selling wine, traveling, four kids up and down all day long t- back and forth to school and activities. Delia, how did you do it? What was the secret?
Delia Viader:
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know when did I manage to sleep, honestly (laughs) ... I have no idea (laughs) but I think, um, I had a lot of good help. Um, my biggest helper is now my, um, manager of shipping and quality control. He used to be my babysitter, but, um-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)-
Delia Viader:
... she's my best, I mean, she's my best success story. Uh, somebody with a lot of common sense, that it's not afraid of so without her, and her sister, her brother, her cousin, helping me with the kids, it would not have been possible because, you know, sports, driving to two different ends of the Napa Valley at the same time and traveling and being the only one putting food on the table, it, it would not have been possible.
Doug Shafer:
Right, right. That's, well, that's, that's great. That's great. You had that help, and it's great that she's, she's still with you, and that's pretty cool. All right. Well, let's jump to Alan, um, Alan, so you grew up on the vineyard on Howell mountain. What was that like?
Alan Viader:
Well, it was the, uh, the, the greatest front and backyard a little boy that loves outdoors could ask for (laughing). It's, uh, I, back up here, our property backs up to thousands of acres of, you know, just wild forest, um, beautiful land. So, I was able to get out and get, get my hands dirty.
Doug Shafer:
And then, so you... Growing up, elementary school St. Helena, St. Helena High School, is that-
Alan Viader:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Doug Shafer:
... was that your place?
Alan Viader:
That was.
Doug Shafer:
Well, it was my place too, but I won't tell you when I graduated, it was a long time ago. (laughing). But, uh, how about, uh, activities, sports as a kid? Anything, anything, uh, that's-
Alan Viader:
Uh-
Doug Shafer:
... unique?
Alan Viader:
... you know, grew up playing soccer then did wrestling in high school and I continue, uh, you know, a lot of outdoor kind of extracurricular activities. I did martial arts growing up too, and love that.
Doug Shafer:
Neat.
Alan Viader:
I love being active.
Doug Shafer:
Good, good. And did she have you working in the vineyards on the weekends, pulling rocks out and all that stuff.
Alan Viader:
All the time-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Alan Viader:
... so as, uh, as early as I could hold a shovel, I was out there. I remember our first harvest at Rombauer. I was helping, um, and I think I was being paid a quarter an hour-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)-
Alan Viader:
... and I'm, I'm glad I get paid a little bit more than that these days, but, uh, still, still moving rocks and digging holes since, yeah, in, uh, in the dirt here, so-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Alan Viader:
... uh, yeah, I, I, I really gravitated towards the vineyard side of it. Um, I loved, uh, mmm, seeing the tractors work. I loved just, uh, following David Abreu's guys and, and our, our crews here doing all the little work and ended up kind of working my way up and, you know, learning every aspect of it. I have a lot of respect for the farm workers and the whole thing that goes into a bottle of wine.
Doug Shafer:
Right, right. So, and I'm, I'm assuming you grew up with wine in the house. I'm sure that will-
Alan Viader:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... Delia already just mentioned that. So, um, so that, would that-
Alan Viader:
Education.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. But here it's (laughs) education and curiosity for sure.
Alan Viader:
Yup.
Doug Shafer:
Um-
Alan Viader:
And, it was great. She always, she always kind of wrapped it with a lesson, uh, terroir lessons, so, certain characteristics, she would kind of try to pull, pull out of the wine. Uh, she would ask me if I'd taste any fruit. Okay. What kind of fruit? What kind of flavors? Uh, kind of smells and then she'd go in to the back and say, okay, because of this exposure and this type of soil, or lack of soil, or, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Alan Viader:
... climate, so-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, super. Great education.
Delia Viader:
We did it all over the world, so, um-
Alan Viader:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Delia Viader:
... the kids had the opportunity to travel as much as I did, um, because I think that it helps you be centered and it helps you also appreciate how good you have it because you get to compare and contrast and, you come home and you appreciate what you have.
Doug Shafer:
That's true.
Delia Viader:
Instead of taking it for granted.
Doug Shafer:
So, Alan, after high school, what happened? What was your next, next thing?
Alan Viader:
Uh, so I went, uh, over to Sonoma County, did a viticulture program, um, got into some winemaking, uh, wanted to eventually kind of run vineyards, uh, do like a vineyard, you know, labor contract or something like that-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Alan Viader:
... and then, uh, my mom called me looking for some help with the vineyard here and, uh, I accepted a position as vineyard manager. So, this was, uh, about 20 years ago and I haven't found a reason to leave yet (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Wow. Wow. Good for you.
Delia Viader:
At, at that time I had a vineyard in Italy-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, really?
Delia Viader:
... that-
Doug Shafer:
Was he visi-
Delia Viader:
Right. In '99, I purchased a piece of land in Tuscany and I was developing a vineyard in Italy. My first crop was 2003. So, the idea was that I would take care of Italy and he would take care of Napa. And I was flying around in the month of September without sleep for four weeks. Harvest there and harvest here at the same time.
Doug Shafer:
I don't know. I don't know if that works. That would be probably really tough.
Delia Viader:
Well, I managed for seven years.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Okay. Oh, Delia, Delia, but you're the only one who can do that. The rest of us don't have the same energy you do. So, I've gotta figure out what you're eating or drinking and get some of that.
Alan Viader:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
So um-
Alan Viader:
Red wine and cheese.
Doug Shafer:
Red wine and cheese. So, Alan, so you're doing the vineyards for the last 20 years. Um, and I think you, did you, uh, you worked other places too. Didn't... I think you went to Argentina. Was that for a harvest or a-
Alan Viader:
Yeah, I worked down in Argentina, fell in love with Malbec, but I was already getting involved with the blends here as a, as a bystander. Um, I was invited, um, to, you know, part of the, the tasting panel, if you will. And I just loved tasting the wines and tasting the finished product. I was very disconnected. I was just the farmer. And then once harvest was done, I was on vacation-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Alan Viader:
... you know, where I was, I was traveling and, and just presenting the wine somewhere. I didn't really have too much of a connection with the finished product. Um, and then a few years into it, just my nature. I wanted to get involved with things and, you know, I can't just sit around and be bored. Um, so I, I started asking around how can I help and, as things grew and we had more wines, I had to get involved. I started driving forklifts and I started doing pump overs and I started doing night shifts and started doing rackings. And that's when, uh, I decided to go to Argentina to kinda see just only winemaking and really get involved on that side heavy and, and just dig deep and learn a little bit more. Uh, and I came back changed. Uh-
Doug Shafer:
Huh?
Alan Viader:
... I loved, loved wines, loved the whole cycle of, you know, the growing of it, but also the making of it. And I felt like if I wasn't doing both, it was incomplete and I was kind of doing a disservice. So, um, to be a better farmer, I wanted to be winemaker. To be a better (laughs) winemaker, I needed to be ... um, starting in 2006, my mom, uh, allowed me, uh, to kinda do more of the day-to-day operations and the winemaking and been doing it ever since. Doing, uh, production, vineyard, winemaking. Um, we do the blends together and I, I do all the, the, the heavy lifting and the moving of the barrels and all that kind of fun stuff. But, um, so I get my hands dirty, but I also get to do the wines.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's, that's great. Um, so before you took over as winemaker, Delia, you were winemaker, correct? For the whole time?
Delia Viader:
Correct-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Delia Viader:
... but we always had, even when Alan was winemaker, I brought Michel Rolland, um, what I call the, uh, Harvard University of wine, uh, because I didn't want Alan to have a closed palette. I wanted to have a world palette. The wine that we make has to stand with the best of the world. And that was kind of, um, the three of us getting together to do the fun part, which is the blending-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Delia Viader:
... the final blending, and I've always told Michel, um, we need to keep the style. It's not a, a Rolland style. It's not a Delia style. It's not an Alan style. It is what the site will give, will dictate and it has to be consistent. It has to be able to stand with the best of the world. Now the caveat is, if something doesn't go well, you're fired. And if something goes very well, all the credit is my son's.
Doug Shafer:
There you go. (laughing) Th- that job security in the family business. It's a, it's a-
Delia Viader:
Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
... treacherous, treacherous path, I'll tell you. So-
Alan Viader:
(laughing).
Doug Shafer:
... so Alan, Alan, you're still... So, you're doing the winemaker. Are you still overseeing all the vineyards too?
Delia Viader:
Yes.
Alan Viader:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. So, you're busy, busy guy.
Alan Viader:
Um, I, I like it that way. (laughs.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Well, yeah. I, I think it's in your, uh, your DNA for sure. Um, how's it been? So, obviously it's b- it's been working well, do you guys have a pretty shared vision? You know, Delia, you talked about... Or, just sometimes you have disagreements or different ways to go. How's that work out?
Delia Viader:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Without, without, you know-
Delia Viader:
Uh-
Doug Shafer:
... getting too personal?
Delia Viader:
No, without getting too personal. No, we have sometimes disagreements, but there are kind of compromises. We work out a compromise. Um, there are differences in taste sometimes when we decide when a wine is ready, uh, to, uh, you know, when it's time to pick, sometimes we have some minor disagreements, but we always find a compromise. Um, I am less inclined to use as much New Oak. Uh, Alan loves his Oak.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing).
Delia Viader:
But, other than that, we always find a comfortable agreement or compromise. Um, sometimes I come up with, very last minute, with kind of this look in my eyes that he fears and it's like-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Delia Viader:
... just a half of a percent, I think just a half of a percent in the blend will really make it perfect. And he's like, "Oh, no. Mom, again?" So, he has to rack everything again, but ... those are rare instances and it's just, I'm a perfectionist by, at heart and, you know, it's never perfect until it's perfect and it will never be perfect-perfect (laughs)-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Delia Viader:
So-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's-
Delia Viader:
... that's my problem.
Doug Shafer:
Well, that's the fact that-
Alan Viader:
But, but you gotta understand that, uh, you know, my education in wine started very early and it started with my mom as the teacher so-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Alan Viader:
... she shared with me the wines that she considered, you know, the benchmarks and the epic wine, wines of, of the region. And those are what I consider, you know, the top marks as well. So, um, we have very similar palettes. I mean, there are obviously differences. Um, but they're very nuanced.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. No, I think you guys have worked it out really well. I, I had it, Al- Alan, I had it a little bit easier than you did 'cause my dad was never a true winemaker. He was a grape grower and a good one, but uh, it, boy, those, those, uh, those discussions and decisions on when to pick or not to pick like are vivid-
Alan Viader:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... in my memory, um, 'cause-
Alan Viader:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... he was a grower. He was like, "Hey man, they're, they're 23 and a half. Let's go." And Elias and I are like, "No, we can't." And-
Alan Viader:
(laughs)-
Doug Shafer:
... he says, "What's, what's... And basically, it was kinda like, what's wrong with you guys? I mean, it was, um, in various degrees of volume and uh, intensity, but, uh, we figured it out and uh, 'cause we were... Well, that was in the time we were realizing we had to push ripeness to get better flavors so it's interesting.
Alan Viader:
Well, I've had quite a few of your wines and I'd have to say you have figured it out, so-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, thank you, thank you.
Alan Viader:
You're doing something right.
Doug Shafer:
Hey, I came across something else. In addition to growing grapes and making wine, you, Alan, being busy, you're a member of the Napa County Sheriff's Volunteer Search and Rescue team, right and-
Alan Viader:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... Napa County Deer Park, Volunteer Fire Department. Tell me-
Alan Viader:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... about that experience. And also, it's inspired you to make a, a different wi- A new wine brand so tell us a- all-
Alan Viader:
(laughs)-
Doug Shafer:
... about that.
Alan Viader:
So, yeah, I mean, I get the same question all the time as my mom and how do you have the time for it? And it's just, you, you use your time wisely. I'm always productive. I'm always doing something and if I'm in the middle of a disaster, uh, I can't sit back and uh, do nothing. So, I found a way to, to get involved and uh, about five years ago joined the, uh, the Sheriff's Search and Rescue team and, you know, we, we've done fire evacuations, we've done, you know, missing persons. We've done a few other things, lost hikers. Um, yeah. And you know, tremendous amount of training, uh, involved that-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Alan Viader:
... you know, you know, not only, uh, navigation and all that, but also medical training. So, it's really helped me and empowered me and given me the confidence, when things go crazy and people get injured and, you know, events happen outta your of control. You, you just go into kind of this, I don't know, mental, like calm, just, I know the steps. I'm gonna go through this, that and that, and I'm not gonna panic. And-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Alan Viader:
... um, you know, and, and then in, uh, 2020 where we had th- all these fires, um, uh, that directly hit our property. I found myself again in kind of a helpless situation and you know, not only our property, but our neighbors, our community here in Deer Park-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Alan Viader:
... uh, took a pretty big hit. So, um, first thing I did was call up, uh, the, the chief here at Station 21 and say, "How can I help? How can I get an involved?" And next thing I knew I was, uh, uh, strapped onto a treadmill and with, you know-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Alan Viader:
... a heart monitor seeing if I was gonna, you know, be athletic enough to join the, the academy. And then I was, you know, in the academy and you know, they worked around your schedule, so it was nights and weekends and, um, you know, made it happen. So-
Doug Shafer:
And that was, uh, that was to become a volunteer fire- fireman right?
Alan Viader:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
[crosstalk 00:35:10]-
Alan Viader:
So-
Doug Shafer:
... that's great. And then, and, but you're doing more, you're making some wine to raise money, is that right?
Alan Viader:
So I, I wanted to make my own wine and I wanted it to have some sort of purpose, uh, you know, there's so many just brands out there just for the purpose of making wine and, and I didn't want to just get lost in that. So, um, I really wanted to have something, some, you know, teeth to bite into and (laughs) get in the market-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Alan Viader:
... and actually do something with it. So, um, I love and very passionate about first responders and, you know, the, the role that they play in our communities and, you know, I've seen some pretty serious, uh, fire, wildfires and devastations and stuff.
Alan Viader:
Uh, I've been all over California, various missions and different things here and there. So, um, I've seen a lot of stuff that, you know, they do selflessly and, um, this, this wine I make Pinot Noir from, you know, Sonoma Coast. I make a Syrah from Coombsville. Uh, I make some rosé as well and, um, it's great wines. They're single vineyards. You know, I, I love the terroir aspect. They're terroir-driven wines, but, um, beyond that, uh, portions of, you know, the money that I make, I give back to organizations like, you know, The Salvation Army. I give them back to, uh, the Children's, uh, for First Responders Foundation that gives money to families that lose, um, you know, somebody in, uh, in the line of duty and gives them scholarships to continue, um, when their, uh, father or mother, uh, is no longer around so, um, I also donate to the local, uh, Search and Rescue and some local stations. I mean, I, I'm able to do something, um, you know, not only physically, but also financially so-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's great.
Delia Viader:
There is an intent, the wine is called Intentus.
Doug Shafer:
It's Intentus-
Alan Viader:
Yeah, so-
Doug Shafer:
... right? Yeah.
Alan Viader:
Yeah. In Latin, it means intention. So, it had to have, you know-
Doug Shafer:
I love it-
Alan Viader:
... an intention and-
Doug Shafer:
... and while I'm-
Alan Viader:
... a purpose behind it.
Doug Shafer:
A while we're on it, by the way, congratulations. It's, it's so neat you're doing that. Um, just-
Alan Viader:
Thanks-
Doug Shafer:
... before we, before we forget. So, if people want to get these In- Intentus wines, where do they go? Would they go to the Viader website or is there somewhere else?
Alan Viader:
No, I have a small website. It's-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Alan Viader:
... it's all separate. Um-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Alan Viader:
... wanted to keep it as-
Doug Shafer:
Sure. That makes sense.
Alan Viader:
... (laughs) as separate as possible.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Well, good-
Alan Viader:
So-
Doug Shafer:
... well-
Alan Viader:
... It's tiny. It's like three barrels here. Three barrels here, so-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. But it, it all adds up, man. Very, very cool.
Delia Viader:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Um, hey mom, you gotta be proud of this kid. What do you think?
Delia Viader:
Totally.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Delia Viader:
I'm very proud of all my kids, but I'm, I'm really, really proud of their achievements and their, their thinking that goes, their heart, their, their, their kind of... I'm, I'm very, very proud mom.
Doug Shafer:
You've done, you've done a wonderful job, but, uh, you know, we skipped over some of the basics about Viader. Tell us a little bit about your spot up on Howell Mountain. It's gorgeous, but uh, you know, the property, the soil, you know, what the wines are like coming off that property. Can you guys, why don't both of you chime in on that one?
Delia Viader:
Well, it's, it's a hillside. Yes. Um, and even-
Alan Viader:
It's a ski slope. (laughing).
Delia Viader:
It's, it's also a ski slope. Uh, it's a double-diamond ski slope and I put the vines so you can hold on to them. (laughing) and not end up, (laughs) down at the bottom. Um, it has the same, the same grade, 32% of those slopes in San Francisco.
Alan Viader:
Yeah. It's, it's, it was planted. I mean, my mom was way ahead of her time. Very innovative. I mean, copying a lot of the things that she saw in Europe and, and applying it here, um, very steep hillsides were not very common and she also wanted to do some high density planting. So, I mean, I, I walked into this, you know, as an adult but just I can't even imagine, um, the amount of work this was to put in, um, you know, I've, I've put in a few vines here with jackhammers, but I couldn't imagine putting in all like 50,000, um-
Doug Shafer:
Well, and, and the, the rose-
Alan Viader:
... but this is super high density planting up and down. I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Y- yeah. They go straight up and down-
Alan Viader:
... the place is so steep-
Doug Shafer:
... because back then, Delia-
Delia Viader:
East-West-
Doug Shafer:
... we were plant-
Delia Viader:
... orientation.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. We were planting hillside, but you know, Dad, you know, we did the old terrace thing, terraces, terraces, terraces, and you guys did that, you know, top to bottom, which is actually, we're learning now is the way to go when you can do it. Delia, how'd you, how'd you figure that one out? 'Cause you were way ahead of you time.
Delia Viader:
Well, I figured that one out, I actually called, called USDA, a, uh, the, the, the department of, um, where your tax dollars go to come and do a, uh, a trial because everybody was saying erosion, erosion, erosion, but it, it really depends on the slope and the way you slope. Um, I planted East-West, but my slope is more South-North. So-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Delia Viader:
By putting the, the vines so close together and then having cover crop in between, I'm maintaining much more soil here at the top of the mountain that I, it would have leaving it naturally empty with nothing-
Alan Viader:
Yeah.
Delia Viader:
... to hold it.
Alan Viader:
Yeah. I'm seeing that, uh, you know, I've had so many meetings with, uh-
Delia Viader:
After this rain.
Alan Viader:
... RC- RCD and, and NRCS. I mean, I'm... We're, we're active in Napa Green and Napa Green Land and, you know, the, the storm water regulations that are coming down from the state level. Um, so we've been doing a lot of research and a lot of farm planning here. And to be honest, I mean, we have had very little, um, thing, you know, very little changes needed to our current practices. We are, uh, non-till. All of our avenues have always been, uh, you know, covered-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Alan Viader:
... in straw and we've always done seed and we've always done water bars. Uh, I'm actually, you know, very, very happy that, you know, this is something that I have always experienced and always learned. And, you know, there's nothing new that I had to, to learn that a lot of vineyards are, uh, having to adapt and change completely their mindset on how to farm, you know, with erosion in mind and I've, since day one, I've always had erosion in mind and-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Alan Viader:
... uh, and we've been very good and we've been following, you know, very closely and, you know, we've, we've done very well with, you know, this last rain event, uh, the vineyard, the original vineyard. I mean, it's perfect.
Doug Shafer:
Held out great.
Alan Viader:
That was -
Delia Viader:
Held up great because if you think we have six to eight inches of topsoil, max, I don't want it anywhere else than where it is.
Alan Viader:
Yeah.
Delia Viader:
I need it.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing). You know, we've learned, we learned that one here too early days Dad ... 'Cause back in the seventies. Yeah. So he, his brand new hillside vineyard, all the soil, most of the soil washed to the bottom. We had to, we had to dig it up and put in trucks and bring it back to the top of the hill. (laughs).
Alan Viader:
And that's just so much extra work.
Doug Shafer:
It's a lot of extra work, trust me. And I was in high school at the time, so you know what I was doing every weekend.
Alan Viader:
Oh, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Anyway. Well, good. And uh, yeah, shallow soil, so, small berries, great concentration, hillside fruit.
Alan Viader:
Yeah, and the, the vines are always manicured-
Delia Viader:
Bonsai.
Alan Viader:
... I mean, we have very small canopies. Uh, I'm, I have a bunch of, uh, sensors for water stress and, you know, irrigation practices and stuff are all precise.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Alan Viader:
And, I do block by block. You know, it's a very small property and I have so many different blocks. I have like 60 blocks. Everything is double poly-ed. And, you know, we, we've worked really hard on being very efficient with our water.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. It's, um-
Alan Viader:
It's great.
Doug Shafer:
... good, good to hear. And another question I had that, hadn't heard about this Delia, uh, once in a while you guys make, uh, some wines under the DARE brand, what's that all about? Am I right on that one?
Alan Viader:
Yep.
Delia Viader:
DARE, a part of Viader.
Doug Shafer:
Oh (laughs).
Delia Viader:
I, I used to make a dance with it, um-
Doug Shafer:
I missed, I missed that one.
Delia Viader:
... and it, no, funny because, um, (laughs) a lot of people pronounce it in America, Viader and my poor kids had to deal with Star Trek all their lives in high school. Um, but it's Viader, if you dare.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Got it.
Delia Viader:
So, our, our... It's kind of a second label where we allow ourselves fun and Alan can make anything under that label-
Doug Shafer:
How fun.
Delia Viader:
... uh-
Alan Viader:
Yeah, so that-
Delia Viader:
... and he can make and explore different varieties.
Alan Viader:
Yeah. The whole concept was to do, you know, showcase these single varieties and, and we're known more for the DARE Cabernet Franc. Um, but we've made a few different other varieties, Tempranillo, uh, we've done a Cabernet Sauvignon and we do Syrah, Malbec. So, um, it's really where we can focus 100% varietal. Um, the estate wines here from Viader are all blends and they're all unique characters. Uh, you know, the Viader is Cabernet with Cabernet Franc, the V is Petit Verdot with Cabernet. Uh, the Black Label is Cabernet with Syrah and a few other, uh, like Malbec and, uh, Cabernet Franc. But, uh, and then the Homenaje is Malbec with Cabernet, but the DARE really is where we focus and, and really highlight, you know, what the best is from that particular varietal.
Doug Shafer:
That's neat.
Delia Viader:
It's also more of a fun thing because it's, it... Our wines tend to age very well and people tend to wait till that special occasion. DARE is really, for every occasion. It's, it's set up to be a fun, very exciting, uh, wine where we highlight the specific characteristics, for example, Cabernet Franc, which is our favorite, that more of the elegance, more of the giving you subtle nuances without attacking your palette in-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Delia Viader:
... certain ways.
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Delia Viader:
And it can be a drunk with anything.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, cool, So, help me... So, and then getting back to the Viader label brand, what, what wines are you guys offering under the, the main brand these days?
Delia Viader:
Like Alan said, we have four main blends-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Delia Viader:
Uh, Viader continues to be the more of an either Bordeaux classic style of wine, Cabernets Sauvignon and Cabernet Franc with a high proportion of Cabernet Franc. Um, then the V, it was something I did as a winemaker just to prove I could do it. Um, the Petit Verdot can be super bold. Uh, that's very, very well in our, with our west exposure. It needs a lot of heat and, uh, to ripen, but it has very high natural acidity, so, how you make that square peg fit a round hole it's um, it's a little bit of a challenge winemaking, but it's one of the ones they we're known for. It's, uh, Petit Verdot, big proportion. Sometimes, we've done 92%, Petit Verdot and 7% Cabernet Sauvignon. And I always say we put the Cabernet Sauvignon to make it drinkable because Petit Verdot can be very, not only long aging, but very bold. Uh, but we make it bold in the sense that you would make a kind of dark chocolate bold. So, it's, it's an interesting wine, uh, to, to try. And then, um, Alan came up with his own blend, we, I call it the next-gen blend-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Delia Viader:
... um, because we always come to the compromise. He wanted to make something where he could put his mark and I said, "Well, make your own thing."
Doug Shafer:
(laughing).
Delia Viader:
And, and then his sister came up because he was blending, Cabernet and Syrah, and it was really pretty inky in color and says, "Well, call it black label." Viader Black Label. And then he added a little bit of a Malbec and a little bit of Cabernet Franc and the Kitchen Sink, but it, it's really, (laughs) it's really his creation. And it, it just flies off the tasting room because it's a very interesting, very appealing, um, new, like I call it next generation. It's, it's a very easy to like, very pleasing blend with a little teeny bit of acidity elevated, but it's, it's, it's amazing when we do the tastings, um, how much Generation X, or Generation C or Generation, whatever it, it, they're always gravitate towards that wine. And then, come the HOMENAJE that nobody can pronounce, but, except us that speak Spanish. Uh, Homenaje means tribute and it's something that he wanted to do as a tribute to his grandfather.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Delia Viader:
And he brought Malbec, uh, cuttings from Argentina when Alan, uh, spent two years, uh, in Argentina in those, uh, two different harvest. So, he came with this blend, half Malbec, half Cabernet.
Doug Shafer:
Nice. Nice. And so all these wines, if folks want to get 'em, uh, you, you guys have a, a website, they can purchase the wines on? Is that the best way to go?
Delia Viader:
Yes. Viader.com.
Doug Shafer:
Viader.com. Good, good to know. And another question I forgot to ask you guys, what about the next generation, are there... Delia, are their grandkids in the picture?
Delia Viader:
I hope so. (laughing)
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Uh-
Delia Viader:
One of the three, for now. (laughs).
Alan Viader:
Yeah. I've got, I've got three kids, two boys and a girl and-
Doug Shafer:
Ah-
Alan Viader:
... they've, since they could walk, they've been involved with harvest and the only real time they can see me during the months of September or October, November is if they come up and-
Delia Viader:
(laughs).
Alan Viader:
... uh, come see me here at the winery. So, uh, they've been actually... Now that they're old enough, I mean, my oldest son is 12. Uh, he's been, yeah, he's been helping. He knows how to roll barrels. He knows how to-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, good.
Alan Viader:
... do punch downs and, and he knows all the, you know, ins and outs of the pumps and clamps and all that stuff so-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's great.
Alan Viader:
... uh, a lot of fun starting them off early-
Delia Viader:
They come for bottling too. They-
Alan Viader:
Oh, yeah. They help with bottling.
Delia Viader:
... know how to stick labels.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I used to put mine on the bottling line, putting capsules on bottles and they didn't like... They'd liked it for about 10 minutes.
Alan Viader:
Yeah. And, and we had 'em for my own... The, the Intentus wines, they do all the, the, the capsules and they do all the, the packaging and that kind of stuff. So, it's kind of a family affair. My wife does the labeling and ... you know, we, you know, we've, we've turned it into kind of an education, I guess, as well.
Doug Shafer:
Cool. Good for you.
Alan Viader:
Work ethic.
Doug Shafer:
There you go. Yeah. Start them early. Well, listen, you two. Um, this has been wonderful. Thank you for taking the time and sharing your stories with us really, really appreciate it. And good to, good to talk to you again. It's been a while.
Alan Viader:
Yeah. It's great. Thank you very much.
Doug Shafer:
All right, guys. Be good and we'll see around-
Delia Viader:
Thank you, Doug.
Doug Shafer:
... hopefully, hopefully soon. Take care.
Alan Viader:
I'll see you soon.
Doug Shafer:
All right.
Delia Viader:
Take care.
Doug Shafer:
Thanks. Bye-bye.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Hey everybody, Doug Shafer here. Welcome back for another episode of The Taste. Uh, today we've got a longtime friend and an awesome winemaker, especially with Pinot Noir and Syrah, Adam Lee. Adam, welcome.
Adam Lee:
Thanks, Doug. It's good to be here.
Doug Shafer:
It's, uh, before we get going, you, uh, I've got to tell the story. So it's the late '80s, early '90s. I'm, uh, here at Shafer, I'm out on the road selling wine which basically is I'm, in some sales reps car. Going around to accounts retail stores restaurants meeting the buyer, pouring the wine, telling the story, trying to make some sales. And I'm in Austin, Texas I met this great local, great shop called the Austin Wines, Austin Wines and Spirits I think it was called. Still there to this day, it is the place in town. I'm there in the shop waiting with my rep, waiting for the buyer who's out there in the back room with another winemaker. And, uh, so there's this guy behind the, behind the counter, working in the counter and we start chit chatting. And is this young kid and he's like, "Man, I really, man, you make wine?" I said, "Yeah, I make wine." He goes, "Man, I want to do that." I said, "Well, let's do it. Go, go do it." He goes, "How do I do it? What do I do? Do I got to go to school?" I said, "My recollection..." Adam you might disagree is, I, I t-think I just said, "Just go out and, go out to Napa, Sonoma and get a cellar job, you'd learn on the job. You can do it." And you were like, it was you. (laughs). You were like, "Okay, I'll do that." And I didn't think anything of it. And two or three or four years go by and next thing I know, I'm reading about Adam Lee and Siduri wines. And I'd like go, "I know that kid. He was in that store in Texas, in Austin years ago." That's, uh, so that's where we first met, as I recollect.
Adam Lee:
That was the day that you were allocating Merlot, I remember that. That was (laughs), the big thing. That was the, the hot Shafer wine was the Merlot.
Doug Shafer:
That what, that's true. That's the Merlot era. That's true. But, uh, is in my, is my memory right on that one? That's how it happened?
Adam Lee:
It's comp, it's completely correct. Yes. You told me to just go for it, give it a shot, and come on out. And it's kind of what I did. I didn't end up getting the cellar job. But I followed that path of, of believing that you could take that chance and move out. And, you, you know, go west young man, to quote my old history, uh, professor. And, and I came out and took the chance.
Doug Shafer:
Its, I love it. I love it, because I've had that chat with many, many people through the years. And as far as I know, you're the only one that made it happen. So congratulations, my friend.
Adam Lee:
I, I appreciate that. You know, one of the things that was... A-a-and I still think is fantastic about this business, is how encouraging people are to people who really do want to pursue that dream. I mean, I'm sure you have harvest interns there. You-you've had interns and th-these people want to come and work and be part of something that we're fortunate to be part of. And I, I, I think people are open, winemakers are open, winery owners are open to sharing information, a-and, and, uh, encouraging the new generation.
Doug Shafer:
It's fun, because, uh, anyone who wants to get into it, usually they've got a lot of passion for it and are compassionate about it. And, uh, being around people with passion, um, is, is, is, uh, is an upper. It's great. I mean, it just, it gets us, it kind of gets me recharged when, when that happens with young kids. So it's, it's always fun. But speaking to young kids, let's talk about your story. Talk to me. Where'd you grow up? Let's go all the way back.
Adam Lee:
Sure. So I grew up in Austin, Texas. I was born in 1964. I was adopted when I was seven days old by two older Southern Baptist parents who didn't drink.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Adam Lee:
So consequently, I didn't drink until I got to college. Uh, I mean, I guess consequently, a lot of people drink even though their parents didn't drink. I managed not too until I went away to San Antonio, Texas to Trinity University, a small, uh, liberal arts school. I studied French history and I specialized in the comparative history of the French and American prison systems.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Adam Lee:
And that did not lead to a job after college somehow.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Adam Lee:
Uh, but, yeah, I know, it was pretty esoteric... People, I, I heard of this professor, he's actually know a very good customer. He said at Pomona, he's a dean down there. But he, um, told me that if I wrote about Robespierre's role in the French Revolution, everything that could be written about it had been written about it. So find something obscure to write about and maybe I could get published and get into graduate school. And I went just about as obscure as you could go. But I didn't go to graduate school and that's all because my junior year in college, I met this young lady who was a senior and she got a job after college out in Walnut Creek, California, working for Chevron. And I spent the summer between my junior and senior years out with her going wine tasting and fell in love with, uh, with wine. And really decided that I wanted to get, uh, come back and get involved in the, uh, in the wine business once I graduated. So I got a job working at, at that wine retail store in Austin.
Doug Shafer:
So that's how it happened? I was going to ask you. Because you know when did the wine thing kick in? Um, I, I was aware that you know, your folks, you know, were Baptist. You guys didn't drink. But, uh, so the wine thing didn't really happen in college. It happened afterwards. That's what you're telling.
Adam Lee:
It, it, yeah, that junior year. I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Adam Lee:
... I remember things like we would take, um, that summer, uh, uh, Chateau Ste. Michelle Riesling to Stern Grove Park. I, I mean, we were looking for sweeter white wines at the time. But I discovered this one place that we used to love to picnic and it was overlooking vines and a river, and the first red wine I ever fell in love with, uh, of any sort was the '84 Rochioli Pinot Noir. And that, um, I mean, Rochioli is obviously still one of California's great Pinot Noir producers. A-and basically, I jokingly tell people, um, the love, uh, with the girl didn't last but the love with Pinot Noir did.
Doug Shafer:
Well, I was gonna say that's another question but you're way ahead of me. I was gonna ask-
Adam Lee:
Yeah. (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
What, you know, because you've been all about Pinot Noir, I was, I was curious about where that kicked in. So it was, it was that first bottle. So if that would have been a bottle of Cabernet, you could have been Cab maybe or not?
Adam Lee:
It coulda, it could have been Cab. (laughs). As a Texan you got, you gotta be kidding me. Of course, it could have been Cabernet. I think Texans got to make up, you know, a good quarter of your mailing list or something like that.
Doug Shafer:
That's true. We sell a lot of wine, we sell a lot of Cabernet in Texas. That's a true statement. How's Pinot Noir in Texas? It's probably okay.
Adam Lee:
Um, yeah, Pinot is good. You know it, uh, I always think of Texas kind of as, as three very distinct markets. Um, you-you've got Austin who always wants to be very, very cutting edge. And so when Pinot became popular, Pinot was no longer popular in Austin, and they started looking for Gruner or something really unusual. Uh, then Houston where they're kind of right on, uh, what's, what's happening, what's, what's popular at the moment. And so you see, Pinot doing very, very well there. And then Dallas is a lot of old oil money kind of thing. Um, and, uh, they have, they, they stick with some of the truly great traditional wines of the world and they sell a lot of Cabernet in Dallas.
Doug Shafer:
All right. So you fell in love with wine, the, the, the girl thing didn't work. The wine thing did. You go back, you finished college. But, so senior year, you're like, I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to do this wine thing. Is that where your head was at, do you think? Adam Lee:7 Yeah, I talked about graduate school, I considered the possibilities. Um, I'd looked, uh, and really thought, okay, I'll just take a year off and work in this wine store. I started going to wine tastings, uh, a-at the shop. It was a gentleman named Sam Kindred, Sam owned the stores. And, uh, he would put on the tastings. And Sam was brilliant. But he was always fairly disorganized. And so he would show up late for the tastings that he was putting on. Juggling glasses and the wine samples and he would come to me and say, "Adam, I will comp you the tasting, if you'll help me get it set up in a hurry." (laughs). And as a young kid with no money, I was like, "Sure." And I did that. And he eventually said, "Adam, you know how to, you seem responsible. You show up on time. I think you can do basic, uh, bookkeeping. So I would like to hire you as an assistant manager of a wine store."
Doug Shafer:
Did Sam, uh, I know Sam, I knew Sam Kindred well. He was a wonderful guy. Did he, did he own that store, Austin Wines Spirits?
Adam Lee:
He did.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Okay.
Adam Lee:
There were three of them. So there was, yeah, there were three of them. And one of them, um, was John, uh, is owned, was owned by, uh, managed by a guy named John Rennick, who Johnny owns Austin Wine Merchant now.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Adam Lee:
But yeah, Sam was the owner of the three stores.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Got it. Because then Sam, I think when he got out of that, he started working for a distributor. And I, I remember riding around calling on accounts with him. That's how I met a lot of people.
Adam Lee:
That is correct. Yeah. Doug Shafer:8 Yeah. Wonderful guy. Yeah, he was a little bit disorganized. (Laughs). I do remember that. Um, all right. So you're, you're working in a wine shop. You're there in Austin for what? A couple years? How long that, how long were you there? Adam Lee:9: Yeah, I was, you know, that was a time, uh, where the opportunities to learn about wine were, were huge. Uh, we had, we were the local Les Amis du Vin chapter. So that allowed us, we put on tastings frequently. Uh, we, uh, you know, the, the vintages with California Cab, '84, '85, '86. With Bordeaux '85 and '86. '85 Burgundy's, uh, we brought in the wines from Marco Degrassi, of the German wines from Terri Theiss. There was just, uh, a string of absolutely incredible wines that were available to taste, I, I was able to, to sample and learn about these wines. And I think, uh, it only just spurred a greater, greater love for me for wine, in general. And, um, eventually I moved up to managing one of the stores. I, I also would work interestingly enough, on Friday and Saturday nights in a restaurant on the floor, in exchange for free dinners on Sunday and Tuesday nights. And I would work selling wine. And it was a restaurant called Jambalaya owned by a guy that I know, you know, uh, Leon Cikota.
Doug Shafer:
1 Leon. That was Leon's place. Yeah. (Laughs)
Adam Lee:
1 Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
1 I didn't, I did not know this. L-Leon's a wonderful guy, is our distributor guy now. But he, he'd started out in the restaurant businesses in Austin. That's how I first met him. He was just leaving that. But I didn't know you were hooked up with Leon in those days. How funny. That's great.
Adam Lee:
1 Oh, and it was such a blast and so amazing. And, and, um, it, it was a great opportunity. Like I would have free dinners on Sunday night. And if you know you're a young single guy, and you bring a date into the restaurant. And Leon, Leon The reason he's a great distributor is because he's, well, to put it mildly, he's a kiss ass, he's good at it.
Doug Shafer:
11: Yeah.
Adam Lee:
11: I mean, that's what you need in a distributor, sometimes. It's somebody who gets out there and sell stuff. And he, um, he would say things, ‘Oh, Mr. Lee, it's so good to see you again. (Laughs) And what a wonderful young woman you have with you. What do you like your usual table in the corner?’
Doug Shafer:
11 Oh -
Adam Lee:
11 Yeah, it worked out very well. Yeah. worked out well for a single guy at the time.
Doug Shafer:
11 We, we call Leon, we, he's a sweet talking Charlie, which is a compliment. I love it. So you're there you're doing that. Um, now, A-Austin's really close to Texas Hill Country some great pla, a great area to grow grapes and make wine. Were you, were you running around out there.
Adam Lee:
11 I did, I went out. Um, I still remember that one of the greatest bottles of wine that I've had. I mean, even we can go through and we can name the most of these memorable bottles. You know, you had this old Margaux or you have this old Hillside Select or you have whatever. I mean th-these fantastic bottles. But I remember the first time I really spent any serious time with a winery owner, winemaker was out at Fall Creek winery out in the hill country. And Ed Auler was the owner of that winery, and we're walking through the vineyards and it's hot. It's Texas hot, obviously. And he has a backpack on and he pulls out from the backpack a bottle of Rosè, a white Zinfandel, probably even that he had kept chilled and he just pops the top on it and we pass it back and forth. Drinking it out of the bottle, um, walking through the vines. And (laughs) to, to this day, I, I, it's something that I've long been convinced of. And I mean that really put it in my mind, was great bottles of wine. 12 I mean, you want the wine to be of quality. You don't want it to be flawed. But it's about who you're with and the experience and, and that whole thing. And sitting there from my first time really to spend that much time with a winemaker and winery owner in the vineyards, walking the vines and having that bottle. That bottle still stands out in my mind.
Doug Shafer:
12 Uh, that's great. That's a great story. Hook, hook and hook and Rosè right out of the bottle. I like that. Um, so are, so we're kind of jump into a quick question. Did you ever think about making wine in Texas?
Adam Lee:
13: Uh, you know, I, uh, um, did not at the time. I really didn't see it at, at that moment as being something that was going to, um, to take off. Obviously, I've been wrong about that. Texas wines have done very, very well. Uh, but I, um, I really just thought California was the place. And that time where I spent that little bit of time out between my junior and senior years. I really fell in love with it out here in California.
Doug Shafer:
13 Got it. So that's what, that was the idea. So I think you, you did, you moved up to Dallas, you had a stent up there, right?
Adam Lee:
1 I did. I, I, so I briefly worked in line wholesale and did very poorly at that. Uh, that was not for me going around. There's a lot more of rejection. When you work in wine retail, the people who walked in the door all, uh, want to see you. They all want to buy wine, it's pretty easy when you are a wholesaler, uh, distributor and you're pulling a bag and you walk in. Um, a lot of times that people don't want to see you at all. They don't have the money to spend or you know you're there, you gotta collect a cheque at the time or whatever. So I, I didn't do very well at that. But then one of the places I was calling on, was Neiman Marcus department stores up in Dallas. And Neiman's had a gentleman, a wine buyer named Mike Friend, but they needed another person to be the, uh, second buyer, second person to work the wind department. So I knew they had an opening. I was not very happy working as a distributor. Um, and I decided to, um, give it a shot and to go work at Neiman's, which was a fantastic place to work. You don't really think of Neiman's these days as having wine, but they had a great clientele and an absolutely fantastic selection of wines.
Doug Shafer:
14 Oh yeah, I do remember those, the programs they had, great wines and, and great customers, you know. Happy to spend the money and, you know, learn more about wine. So-
Adam Lee:
14 I, I had a customer one time, he, he was like ‘I know Bordeaux well, but I don't really know Burgundy. And I think '88, '89 and '90 are supposed to be good years, Adam, can you put together like 40 or $50,000 worth of wine for me?’ And y-you mean that's in, those kinds of dollars back at the time. And y-you know things like that would happened. I was like, "Oh my gosh, yes, I can do that for you."
Doug Shafer:
15 (Laughs) I love it. So what, uh, what happened up in Dallas? What, and then because the next stop was California, but a few things happened, I'm sure.
Adam Lee:
15 Y-yeah, a few, a few things happened in Dallas. So I, I always had really in my mind this idea of let me move out to California. Let me get back out there and be involved in, in the wine world out here. Um, I met a young lady, Diana Novy. Diana was the, uh, one of the food buyers there in the epicure department and we started dating. And we ended up really deciding to some extent to move out to California together. I was ahead of her. And my idea at the time was, yeah, maybe make some wine but I was also thinking about being a wine writer as much as anything. And I, um, I moved out a few months before she did and then she followed suit. Um, and, uh, we came out here. I was, started writing a wine newsletter called Vintages, Vines and Wines. And, um, tasting wines, reviewing wines, but, uh, we decided that if we were going t-to pursue this wine newsletter thing, we should try making a little bit of wine. And we were working at a tasting room in Dry Creek Valley. And they, we decided let's try making a little bit of wine and Pinot was what we wanted to make.
Doug Shafer:
1 Where were you guys working?
Adam Lee:
1 Uh, Lambert Bridge.
Doug Shafer:
1 Okay, okay.
Adam Lee:
1 Small, very hands on, uh, you know how with small wineries and when wineries are really trying to build. Uh, everybody, it's a team. And you work together a-and, um, that's, that was the feeling of that place. It was, it was pretty special.
Doug Shafer:
17: Got it. So you're working there, you guys were in the cellar or in, uh, hospitality?
Adam Lee:
17: Taste, taste, hospitality, tasting room. Uh, you do a little bit of everything at a place like that. But we, uh, were mainly tasting room but, uh, we didn't really have anybody to deal with distributors. So I would entertain, uh, distributors if, if we were trying to court some people there. Uh, whatever was, was needed, you end up doing it. You clean the bathrooms, you do that. It's anything and everything you have to do, um, you, you jump in and do it. And, uh, yeah, decided, um, we pulled together our, our cash and we had $24,000 total. And, uh, thought that it might be fun trying to make a little bit of wine and we really wanted to make Pinot Noir. So we put an ad in a publication called Wine Country Classifieds looking for grapes and for, had like for, uh, for Pinot grapes and had four different people respond. And we ultimately ended up buying an acres worth of grapes up in the Anderson Valley.
Doug Shafer:
18: Okay, this is crazy. I've never heard this story this is really fun. So you got, I mean you're just scratching this out. So you, you, you buy it so an acre worth the grape is what a few tons? Worth three or four tons?
Adam Lee:
18 Uh, yeah, at that time. So the reason we wanted to buy the acre was that, we had read that Pinot Noir was, um, very susceptible to yields. If you, if you have too much crop out there that the quality is not particularly good and so we wanted to work in the vineyard ourselves. So we purchased the acre we paid a set price ahead of time for that acre, uh, if that allowed us the right to go out there and do the shoot thinning, the leaf pulling and the dropping of crop ourselves.
Doug Shafer:
1 Oh really? That's kind of cool.
Adam Lee:
18 Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
18 Okay. You're way ahead of the curve here on quality. Good for you. So you guys together, now you married at this point?
Adam Lee:
18 Uh, we got married, engaged right before the '94 harvest.
Doug Shafer:
19: Okay.
Adam Lee:
19: And that was our first harvest. So we got engaged in September and the harvest '94, was a fairly late year in Anderson Valley we didn't pick till early October.
Doug Shafer:
1 Okay. So here's t-the thing I was going crazy the other night looking at my notes with you. Where were you making the wine? Where would you start and through the years where have you made the wine?
Adam Lee:
1 Yeah. So Lambert Bridge allowed us to make the wine there that first year. I think they thought it was kind of cute and didn't really expect much to come of it. And, uh, we ended up making 107 cases, four and a half barrels, out of that one acres worth of grapes that year. Uh, the next, and at some point... Um, well basically what happened is, we ended up getting some decent press on that thought it might be a little bit of a conflict. So we moved the next three years to DeLorimier winery in, uh, over an Alexander Valley. And they, uh, under a real custom crush arrangement. I mean Lambert Bridge allowed us to do it for next to nothing at the time. Doug Shafer:0: Right. Adam Lee:0: I mean, we were working there was kind of a perk of working, uh, there. Um, so '95, '96, '97 was at DeLorimier. And then in '98, We leased a warehouse in a fairly industrial part of Santa Rosa and, um, set it up as our own facility.
Doug Shafer:
That's cool. And this was the, this was the beginning of Siduri. Your brand with, with Diana.
Adam Lee:
That is correct. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So '94 is the first vintage. So, okay, so you've got your warehouse. So how long, when did you guys, um, stop working at Lambert Bridge and go full time with Siduri.
Adam Lee:
So, basically, what ended up happening was we, um, it was maybe the spring of '95. We had the wine and barrel. We thought it was good. We had a number of friends that would taste it. Uh, and they would tell us it was good, but y-your friends are going to be nice to you. (Laughs). And, um, yeah, really in hopes of getting some free wine.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Adam Lee:
Basically, they would be nice. Yep. And, uh, uh, we heard one day, we'd been drinking with some customers. That was one of the advantages, sometimes of a small place too. You would taste with the customers and occasionally you would drink with the customers. And we were drinking with the customers that day. And a fax came in from the Wine Advocate saying that, Robert Parker was staying over at Meadow Wood. And, uh, we and was looking for samples. He was out for a ZAP event. And we went home opened another bottle of wine that led us to think that maybe Parker would like to try our wines. So we drove up to Lambert Bridge pulled a sample out of the four and a half barrels hand bottled it. Put a little Avery white label on it. Did a handwritten note about the wine and drove it over to Meadowwood left it with the concierge there and drove back over the hill. Actually, we stopped and had dinner at a restaurant called Trilogy, that used to exist in St. Helena and we drove back over the hill. 2: And, uh, the next morning had one of those kind of fuzzy, what did we do last night moments. And then we were like, "Oh crap, we left a sample for Parker." And thought we were gonna get some horrible, horrible rating on it. We actually called, uh, Meadowood went and talked to the concierge and asked about getting it back, but it was too late. And, uh, fortunately, three weeks or so after that. Um, Parker left a message on the answering machine saying, he thought the wine was terrific. But he'd lost all the notes on it. And about six weeks after that, the issue of the Wine Advocate came out and it was one of their top 10 Pinots that year. And he printed our phone number, which was our home phone number. We didn't even have a business line setup. (Laughs). And, and that's, that's kind of where Siduri became known. And, uh, where we were like, this could be a real thing. I mean, it went quickly from, this is kind of fun to, uh, wow, our door has been open for us. What do we do about this now?
Doug Shafer:
Well, that's what, that's what's fascinating. Because y-you guys are pretty unique. I mean, that was my recollection. All of a sudden, it's like, Siduri was all over the place. And I was like who is this? And then it's like, wait a minute. I know this kid, he used to sell wine in Austin, Texas. And it happened really fast. It must have been kind of crazy for you guys. Going from like nothing to 60 miles an hour really fast.
Adam Lee:
Uh, very much so. Things, uh, I mean, y-you can talk and we can talk about how it got crazy as far as is making wine and that kind of thing. But truly running a business, running a wine business. Uh, how to, how to make that work was something that neither one of us had. I mean, we had some experience having worked at Neiman's and then worked at a, a another, uh, worked at Austin Wine and Spirits. But for setting it up, setting up that process. And alcohol is regulated in ways that other things aren't. In dealing, jumping through all of those hoops. A lot of stuff here that, uh, we just didn't have any experience on it. And we had to play catch up to some extent.
Doug Shafer:
Well, of, you bet. And so that's, that you got that going on. But here's another thing I, I have got to ask you. Where'd you learn how to make wine?
Adam Lee:
Well-
Doug Shafer:
How did that happened?
Adam Lee:
Yeah, it's a, it's a, good, good question. And really, it's from a lot of people. Including people like you, Doug, who were willing to answer questions for us. Where we would go and I remember talking to Tom Rochioli and, um, tasting, um, barrel tasting with him and asking him questions. And then him telling me about these guys down the street Burt and Ed at Williams Selyem winery, and I needed to go down there. And I went down and, and, uh, talk to them. Reginald Oliver at El Molino, out there over in Napa.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Adam Lee:
People like that, we're very, very open at sharing, uh, information. And I, I think really our belief, uh, started at with that you need to get great grapes to begin with. The-the-there's no, uh, going around that to some extent. You, you had to get the best grapes. So we purchase the grapes by the acre. We read all we could and talk to people all we could about farming and, um, spending time out in the vineyards. Uh, and then to a large extent we let the wine make itself. And I, I mean that sounds very cliched, and I know people talk about that. We really had to do it because we didn't know what to do. So to a large extent, wine did make itself. I actually think making wine is fairly easy. It's stopping for, it's stopping it from becoming vinegar. (laughs). That's the hard part.
Doug Shafer:
That's true. That's a good point. Um, well, I gotta tell you, um, thanks for sharing that. Because to me, it's just fascinating, you know. You know, I mean, you guys took a path that was just so cool. Where you, did it yourselves seat of your pants. You know, you didn't do that Fresno State UC Davis thing. You didn't work in a cellar as an assistant winemaker, a cellar rack. You just did it. I mean, it's just fascinating. And it's, um, you don't hear many people getting to the quality point you guys got with Siduri wines in this manner. And I, I gotta hand it to you. I mean, my, I, just congratulations. It's really, really, it's a great story. It's really cool.
Adam Lee:
I took a one day course at Davis on doing lab work. (Laughs) Thinking maybe that could, maybe that could take, save us some money. And there's some point where you are measuring acidity, titratable acidity, and it requires looking at a color shift in red wine, and I am partially colorblind. And so in the middle of this, where the teacher is telling me can't you see this, and I can't. And I realized I just lost $350 on the UC Davis class that (laughs) I can't even benefit from. That was kind of like, "Huh, I think that's my class. I've done one. And I think I'm done."
Doug Shafer:
That's good. Well, you know, you're making wine. You're making wine with your senses. But I'm gonna roll back to something you said earlier, because I think it's really important. Um, it's so important to get the quality of fruit and the location and, you know, great grapes to be able to make great wines. And that leads to the next question I've got up with you is, you've been making wine all over the place and I, I want you to speak to this and tell the story how this happened. Because I think, I think you've made wine from Santa Barbara all the way up to Willamette Valley in Oregon. And you know, harvest is kind of the same window four or five, six weeks every year. And you're making wines, I don't know you know, the mileage down all these vineyards. I, I, I love you, man. But I've never understood how the heck do you do this? I mean, you know, you gotta be running around like an idiot. I mean, how do you... First of all, why to do it? And then how to do it? Because you did for years. So tell me all about that. Adam Lee:7 Yeah, so I would love to say that we had a great plan as to making it come true. That okay, this was an idea, uh, that it was something I came to. I-it turned out to be this way. It turned out to be something I can do. What, like maybe your stockbroker would tell you, which is your financial advisor, invest in stocks and bonds and this and that. And you know, it diversify your risk to some extent. And that worked out pretty well for us. But that wasn't a plan. We didn't plan that out at all. Honestly, what happened was the general manager at Lambert Bridge had purchased some land up in Oregon. And, uh, planted it to Pinot wasn't sure what he was going to do with it. He his in laws lived up there. And he saw the way we made Pinot that first year and asked us would you be interested in getting some fruit from Oregon? And we rather naively said, "Sure, let's let's go for it." (Laughs) Oregon, um, 1994, the year prior to us making Oregon Pinot 1994 was a fantastic, fantastic vintage in Oregon. And we naively thought every year, it's got to be that fantastic in Oregon. And then, uh, we started in '95, which was arguably the string, uh, three of the worst vintages in Oregon history, '95, '96, '97. And that was a tough beginning with, with Oregon. Uh, we had in '95. 9 Um, we reached out in David Hirsch, um, talked to us out on the Sonoma coast. And David always told us stories about how he had been getting some really great, um, press, I mean, fairly early on. But the wines have been well received from some very, very famous winemakers. But he wanted to see, was it the winemakers or was it the quality of his grapes that made the wines, uh, perform very well. And so he sold to us because he knew he didn't know what we were doing. (Laughs) And so that could, um, he could then judge whether or not, um, it was the quality of the winemaking or the quality of the grapes. And so that's how we got into the Hirsch vineyard, um, in 1997. Gary Pisoni in the Santa Lucia Highlands, he tried our wines at a place called the Cheese Shop down in Carmel. Fantastic- Doug Shafer:0: Still. Adam Lee:0: ... wine store- Doug Shafer:0: And yeah. Adam Lee:0: Oh yeah, absolutely incredible place. And he tried our wines there and thought they were fantastic. And called us up and said he would like to sell us grapes. So there wasn't a plan for this. Uh, but it turned out to be something that we loved Pinot Noir and in still to this day love Pinot and love the expressions of Pinot and all sorts of different places.
Doug Shafer:
Well, you, you did it and I, I tell me about typically how, how would you get through a harvest?
Adam Lee:
I mean, the logistics, the logistics were really, really difficult. So I would leave to go check on vineyards, I would leave at about 3:00, 30 in the morning, and drive down to Monterey to the Santa Lucia Highlands. Uh, on usually on a Saturday morning because there's less traffic. You really just have to worry about getting through the Bay Area.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Adam Lee:
Once you hit Morgan Hill, you're in pretty good shape. Um, I would then, um, check those vineyards at sunrise I would in usually be done sampling crushing them up and tasting the samples with the Franscioni's and Pisoni's by 11. I would then drive down to the Santa Rita Hills, uh, stay the night in Buellton. At the Best Western Andersen split pea soup in there and, uh, living it up. Uh, I would wake up early that morning, sample those vineyards. Uh, drive back up from there listening to Sunday morning NFL games. Get to the Oakland airport, jump on a plane fly up to Oregon. From there, look at the grapes up there. Come back on Monday evening or Tuesday morning and then deal with, um, Sonoma County.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs) And so and but I, but Diana is got to be, she's by your side.
Adam Lee:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Because I mean-
Adam Lee:
She has definitely divide and conquer, uh, was a big thing. Uh, one of the things that changed our lives, uh, tremendously was in 1999. Uh, we had our first child, son, Christian. And, uh, at that point in time, we split things up a little differently. I dealt mainly with, uh, Monterey, Santa Barbara and Oregon. And she spent more time dealing with, uh, Russian River, So, uh, Sonoma coast, Sonoma mountain fruit.
Doug Shafer:
Makes sense. Makes sense. And so, and you're both, you're both tracking fermentations, I guess. You're just trading off, who's ever around to take care of that. Watching -
Adam Lee:
Completely. And there were other things that happened like we were trying to get in Marcy Keefer for the Keefer Ranch vineyard, a great Pinot vineyard. And we weren't able to get in for a couple of years. And, uh, Marcy really wanted grandchildren. So Diana took Christian out as a young, very, very young child, and let Marcy, uh, a-as Diana is trying to convince her to sell us grapes. And let Marcy hold Christian and shamelessly we used our young son and it worked. Diana managed to get us Keefer Ranch grapes that year after, after bringing Christian out there.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs). Yeah, it's okay. I, I get that. You know, I've used my kids kind of that way. Not, you know, blatantly that just happened to be having to be there and it, it works.
Adam Lee:
Sure.
Doug Shafer:
It's, you know, it's kids, kids and dogs. Dog, good stuff. Um, all right. Well, thanks for telling me about that. Obviously, just crazy. Uh, my hat's off to you for doing that. And, and covering that much territory. But, but the bottom line is, you were seeking out the best fruit you could find. And-
Adam Lee:
Yeah, we've-
Doug Shafer:
... for Pinots.
Adam Lee:
No doubt. And, and what I've often believed and I, I still to this day, really believe that it's true, is, uh, that wine should have, uh, very unique, very individual character. And as such, some people really loved our Willamette Valley Pinot. But maybe they didn't like our, our Hatcher vineyard as much. Or they liked the Pisoni, but they didn't like the Clos Pepe as much. Uh, if they as long as they didn't tell us it was poorly made. Then if someone just said I like this one better than I like that one. That to me was never a concern. And we definitely developed followers over time for certain vineyards.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right. It's, uh, no, it's, I see that. In fact, I want to talk about that later. Because I tried a couple those wines, you brought me the other day. Um, but then in '98, you guys launched a new, a new brand called Novy. Talk to me about that.
Adam Lee:
Sure. Uh, so '98 was the first year that we moved into our own facility. And we did a little bit of custom crush for some other wineries because we needed to pay for equipment. Uh, but it was a very small crop year for Pinot that year. And we were wondering, boy, how are we going to fill this place up? How are we going to afford to pay for everything? Uh, and we had a friend who approached us about some Syrah grapes and we decided to make a little bit of Syrah that year. And, um, Novy was Diana's maiden name. It, uh, it meant new. And we thought that was a fun, you know, here's something new let's give it a shot. And, uh, made some Syrah. Got her parents and brothers came in as investors in the winery helped, um, and not large financial investors. And when we started this out in the same 100 and kinda case range, but really, uh, really just began that process of trying to make some other things. Mainly, we focused on Syrah and Zinfandel.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Got it. That was smart and, uh, was that the, I was curious about that as far as making those varietals under a new brand name as opposed to being part of the Siduri, uh, umbrella. Was there a thought to given to that? Is there a reason.
Adam Lee:
A, a little bit. I mean, at that point in time, a few years in Siduri but, uh, seemed like it was becoming known as a, a Pinot Noir producer. And we wanted to, um, to really maintain that and keep it that way. I think once we decided to involve the family, it became pretty clear that it should be a different interest at that point in time and, and, and a different name. Uh, I think that's the, um, I guess that's one of the interesting things that I'm not sure whether or not we did something good or not. But naming a winery after yourself. Obviously, y'all have done that. But y-you know, there are positives and negatives to that. And when you sell a winery at some point in time, as we later did, um, you're selling away your name.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Adam Lee:
That, that's a little bit of a challenge.
Doug Shafer:
I understand. But the same time on the plus side Siduri, as you said, was known, is known for Pinot Noir. And so keeping that focus, I think, I think in my experience in the marketplace is really important for the consumer. I mean, they, they know what Siduri is all about. It's like, well, Siduri has a Cabernet? They'd be like, what, what's going on? That'd be confusing to the marketplace. So, um, it's like Shafer making a Pinot because every once in a while somebody will float that by me, I go, "Uh, that just doesn't make sense. I know we're Cabernet guys." So, um, you know, it's always a challenge to try to figure out what the, what the right move is. So fast forward. All of a sudden, 2015 speaking of selling, were (laughs) were there. What happened? Adam Lee:7 So, Yes. Well, we had grown the winery... I mean, starting at 107 cases, uh, we ended up being about 25,000 cases. Doug Shafer:7 Okay. Adam Lee:7 Uh, a-at that point in time, it would go up and down one year, 20,000. One year, 30,000. I mean, it seems like big swings, but based on just vintage conditions in certain areas that it could easily go up and down by that much. And, um, it was going really well. Honestly, the wines were selling well. Um, we got approached by, uh, some friends of ours, the, the Benzigers. And we were just talking, I, I knew them well. And we chatted about the possibility and I mentioned some offhand comment about, um, that I didn't know we were talking about what would ever happen. What would you, what do you want to do 20 years from now. And I mentioned something about if we were ever, um, if we ever sold I could see myself doing this or that. And, uh, they came back a few days later and said would you be interested in selling? So we kind of began the process then of pulling our financial stuff together, but not with really any real plan at that point in time of selling and quite frankly, we ultimately called it off. And said we, we brought in a, a broker guy, uh, named Mario Zepponi who sells wineries for a living. We ultimately said no, we don't want to do this. It's harvest time, let's, let's call it quits and, and not do it. And, uh, after harvest, Mario came back to us and said, "Adam, I think there'd be some real interest would you consider letting me shop this around and just see what's out there." And I'm like, "Sure." It won't hurt at all to be shopped around. And it turned out there was some real interest and we had some real, long discussions between Diana and myself as to whether or not this is something we truly wanted to do. Did we want to keep doing what we were doing or did we want to go ahead and sell it? And I, I don't know, Doug. To a, to a large extent it got to the point that, well we ran the winery, I kind of felt like the winery was running us, in some ways more than anything else.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Adam Lee:
And, uh, didn't have, um, Siduri had become known as someone who made fairly big fairly, rich Pinots wanted different styles. And I kind of felt like maybe, I wasn't sure do we want to go on a different course. And we didn't feel free to do that. So consequently made the decision to a-after we shopped around, um, to sell the winery to, uh, Jackson family. Kendall Jackson, folks.
Doug Shafer:
No, it's great. And, uh, and I think you did... What was the agreement? You stayed on and kept working with them?
Adam Lee:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
How did that worked out?
Adam Lee:
I did. So there was, um, a three year contract and that was in, um, 2015. And I still consult for them to this day. So I've stayed around. They've been fantastic to deal with. I, they've hired a new Siduri winemaker. A very good friend of mine named Matt, Matt Revlat. He's, he's really fantastic. But, um, I continue to help them out, uh, with some different Pinot projects. Uh, doing some different things. Uh, they, they have vineyard sourcing from Santa Rita all the way up to Oregon. So kind of our, our Pinot, uh, areas dovetail with one another. And we were able to, um, to work together and again, again I continue to consult for them right now.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's great. That's, that's really good to hear. Um, that's, that's neat. It's neat so you can stay connected, uh, with that. But also then freedom to do some new things and that's one thing I want to talk to you about. Um, I think it's 2017 you started your Clarice project, correct?
Adam Lee:
Yeah, so, so, yeah, I did. So that, uh, I mean, I, I know that one of the things. I listened to a number of your, I've listened to a number of your, your podcasts here and, I you do a fantastic job. And I was listening to the one with Donald Patz and you were talking to him about, you know, is there any conflict there with-
Doug Shafer:
All right.
Adam Lee:
... you know, you're doing other, uh, other projects. And Jackson's been pretty cool to work with. They basically are, you know, if you don't get too big, we're, we're cool with this. You know, you just do the small stuff hands on. And I kind of wanted to get back to the days where I was the one, uh, they're doing the punch downs. I was the one really making all these, these calls. And, and at some point in Siduri, 30,000 cases you needed to, um, to have a lot of handoff a lot of things to a lot of staff, that type of thing. And I didn't want that any longer. And I kind of had a different vision at that time on the way I wanted to make the wines. The vines I was dealing with had gotten older. That's one of the things i-in the story of California Pinot so many things happened right after Sideways. 2: There were so many new plantings and you saw Pinots being made in fairly big rich, uh, in fact, very big, very rich style. Maybe a little bit too much. So I, I don't think people talk enough about the fact that Sideways came out in the end of 2004 and 2003 and 2004 with the two hottest vintages I ever dealt with for Pinot. And I don't think those wines stylistically, were always what California Pinot Noir i-is best at necessarily. But people tasted them and they were very popular. 2 Uh, I kind of wanted to do something a little different. The vines were leading me in a different way. So I looked at two vineyards, the Rosella's vineyard and the Gary's vineyard in the Santa Lucia Highlands. I'm very, very good friends with the families that own those vineyards. The Pisoni families and the Franscioni family so good friends I performed, Jeff Pisoni's wedding. I actually got licensed (laughs) to do that. So that's very good friends at that point in time. And, um, wanted to do things differently. A lot of whole cluster, picking a little bit earlier and really not doing anything to the wines. I, I no addition of yeast, uh, uh, anything like that. Just kind of letting it make their, uh, make itself, if at all possible.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Well, you dropped off a bottle of 2019 Clarice to me and, uh, we popped it a couple days ago. I gotta tell you something. And I'm, I'm not trying to give you an advertisement here or an endorsement. But I'm just telling you, winemaker to winemaker, it was really, really pretty. It was... You know what I loved about it? There was this kind of softness, elegance about it, you know, the Pinot character, I'm starting, I'm starting to geek out here but it's just, love the nose. And this the whole balance and fragrance was just, it was very, it’s just, Adam, it was just elegant. It was just an elegant wine and, and I loved it. So my hat's off to you. It's a beautiful wine.
Adam Lee:
Well, thank you. That's, um, that means an awful, awful lot. I really wanted it to kind of have that balance and elegance. Um, honestly, Clarice was named after my grandmother. And my, uh, grandmother also didn't drink. Uh, she was, uh, a teetotaler. But she had a real spirit to her and, um, she taught me to cook. And, uh, she would cook uh, over long periods of time in crock pots. Because my grandfather was, uh, a farmer and she never really knew when he was going to be coming home at night. So she would say if you put the meat, the potatoes, the carrots, the broth, the seasoning all in at one time and let it cook slowly. They will all kind of meld together. If you add seasoning at the end it really stands out. So the whole philosophy at Clarice is to get all you can the best ingredients in the vineyard and then turn around and, um, bring them in together disparate sections in the vineyard. Kind of do a field blend but bring them in and ferment them together.
Doug Shafer:
Nice. Nice. Tell me more about your grandmother. Cause she's got a story, Clarice.
Adam Lee:
She does have a story. Um-
Doug Shafer:
I need to hear this one. This is back, this is Texas back in the early 1900s, I think. But can [-
Adam Lee:
Yeah. She was born in 1896. And she was, um, living in a small town called Giddings, Texas. And in Giddings, Texas she had been arranged to be, uh, married to the son of the pharmacist in town. Which would have been a huge financial step up, a societal step up, uh, to, to, to do that. But she had fallen in love with a guy who was a farmer. And he, they would leave notes for each other underneath a rock down by the creek there in Giddings. And eventually, two days before her birthday, she eloped with him. They ran off on a horse and buggy went all of 17 miles away to Dime Box, Texas. They were chased after by her brother and father, but it started raining that day. And they couldn't catch up, uh, to her. And so my grandparents from that point forward, were married for 67 years. And-
Doug Shafer:
I just love it. (Laughs). I just... ain't that great. That's so romantic. And so cool. And so Texas. It's great.
Adam Lee:
I-it, it, it is Texas. It's romantic. And you know, it's funny, Doug, I never really found that story out until my mom told me later about Clarice's daughter. Because my grandmother, you know, I, I obviously I met her later in her life. And she was more of a grandma. She was the person, she would let me eat the charms out of the Lucky Charms and not the cereal, you know. (laughs) She'd sit on the floor watching Scooby Doo with me, that kind of thing. But, um, she wasn't going to tell me that story. But my mom told me that story about the background, and she told me in relation to the idea of moving out to California and taking a chance on making wine. And she said you know in, when you're young in your life, and you don't really have that much to lose, that's the time to take those chances. Doug Shafer:7: Right. Right. So it's a lovely wine, it's a great story and also you're doing something, there's a whole new concept you're doing with, with sales and, and marketing. Tell us, tell us about that.
Adam Lee:
Yeah. So what I'm really trying to do there is to do, um, something very, very different which is starting a, it's a wine club per se. In some ways you could say it's traditional that, okay you, you sign up you get some wine you're, it's a subscription. But what I do after you get the, the wines, are simultaneously with it. Is you get to go to events and parties and other people's wineries. I, um, I try to involve other people. I, I'm under no illusion that, uh, Clarice is going to be the only Pinot or the only wine they're going to drink of any sort. I, I remember the days, uh, where we all were really working to support each other, certainly in the Pinot world. But in California Wine, we were underdogs. We were, uh, you know, I, I met Robert Mondavi twice in my life. And, and the what he did really as far as promoting California Wine... W-w-what a lot of people early, early on, did your, your father, um, promoting California Wine made a huge, huge difference. I, I worry a little that we have gotten, um, so big and, and so successful that we spend time trying to take shelf space from one another. 8 And what we need to do instead is to get more people drinking more good wine. So I like to do events. I've done events, uh, at wineries down in Santa Barbara. I've done, uh, events over in Napa with different wineries and, and, uh, working with people there. Where my members come and they get special tastings at certain places. Uh, at the same time, we also do, um, private Zoom tastings and Zoom events with members. I've, uh, had discussions, uh, on wine ingredient labeling. I had the head of, uh, the African American Vintners Association on talking about inclusivity in the wine business, uh, do a lot of different things to try to make it more of a community.
Doug Shafer:
Nice, nice. I like it good for you. Hey, I want to have a gig over here at Shafer with your customers because I want to take those Pinot Noir lovers. I'm going to turn them into Cabernet lovers. That's what I'm going to do. Ah, ah.
Adam Lee:
Yeah. Y-y-ou make a little more than just Cab. Maybe they could be a Chard lover too.
Doug Shafer:
Chard lover, a little Syrah, we can do, we can do a few things. So- Adam Lee:9 Yep. Doug Shafer:9 ... good. Thanks for telling us about that. It's a great project. Um, and so after that, um, I’m bouncing back to Jackson family in 2018. You're involved with something called Root and Rubble. Tell me about.
Adam Lee:
Root and, yes. So Root and Rubble was a project that an idea that I came up with after having spent some time in France in Chateauneuf-du-Pape. And seeing some of the great producers their aging, fermenting and aging their Grenache in concrete.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Adam Lee:
And I wanted to and, and over there in Chateauneuf, they call, uh, the, uh, Grenache, the Pinot Noir. You know there's, Chateauneuf are a blend of multiple red grapes. Doug Shafer:0: Right. Adam Lee:0: And they call the Grenache, the, the Pinot Noir of those grapes. And, uh, it came to me that maybe we could try making, uh, a Pinot that is all concrete. Uh, oak is, uh, a very expensive part of winemaking. And maybe there was something there about making a wine that wasn't just a light and fruity wine. But that, we could try and do some experiments, uh, and work truly with, with concrete. So we've been doing that as well and, and making an all concrete aged and fermented Pinot Noir.
Doug Shafer:
Nice. And so that's a, that's a KJ. Is that under the label, Root and Rubble, or is it -
Adam Lee:
I-it's, it's under the label Root and Rubble. Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Cool. Okay, I got a look for that one. And then you've got another project. Speaking of Chateaunuef, I think you met somebody over there. Tell me about that.
Adam Lee:
I did. I met a very, very good friend of mine, a gentleman named Philippe Cambie. Uh, Philippe is one of the leading winemakers in, in the world, certainly in the southern Rhone, and in, um, in all of France. He, uh, consults with 81 other wineries around the globe.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Adam Lee:
And Philippe's, just a, a big hearted, wonderful, wonderful, uh, gentleman. Um, he is someone that is, um, incredibly knowledgeable, obviously, as far as winemaking goes. Uh, and we were drinking at his house, um, having dinner and, uh, he mentioned that we were just talking about our, our lives in wine. And I was talking about m-my story and he just mused, kind of off the top of his head. I've always dreamed of making Pinot Noir.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Adam Lee:
And I loved love that wording. I mean Philippe, uh, Philippe's three white, first wines that he ever made, uh, all got 100s from Parker. So he could have said, I think I could be successful at making Pinot. He could say, uh, I could make money doing it. I mean, there are many ways he could have worded it. But when he said I've always dreamed of making Pinot Noir, uh, that just really tugged at my heart. And I, uh, basically emailed him, uh, once I returned. Thanked him for the dinner and mentioned that to him and asked him if he would be interested in starting a Pinot project together. So we started something called, uh, Beau Marchais. Uh, Beau Marchais is really his interpretation of Pinot Noir. I'm kind of the shepherd, uh, of that. But it's made in the same style in same way that he makes Chateauneuf-de-Pape
Doug Shafer:
Ah, interesting. Because I, we, you gave, you were so generous to give us so much wine, thank you. Um, we, we popped that the other day along with the Clarice, very different expression of Pinot Noir. And really kind of cool. It was just, it was different. It was, um, I don't know it was earthier. I got, maybe I got a little, a little more oak on it. It was kind of a deeper Pinot. God, I've never talked about wines on the show at all, this is kind of fun. (Laughs) It was, uh, it was very different than the, from the Clarice in a, in a really cool way. So that was, it was, how fun for you to be making these different styles of wine. Kind of cool.
Adam Lee:
You know, it is. And for me, it's also fun. I mean, Pinot is something now that I've done, it's hard for me to believe. But you know, in the middle of the 28th harvest here in my life right now, um, and we're getting old, Doug. I hate to say it, but it's, it's true.
Doug Shafer:
No, we're not. No, we're not.
Adam Lee:
No? (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
We're just taking our stride baby. Don't even think about that.
Adam Lee:
I got, I got plenty of time to go. But, uh, it's allowed me to look at Pinot in a different way. And that's something I never really imagined, uh, you know, 20 plus years into it. That you could meet somebody, you could make wine, really kind of following their advice in, in their direction. And that was so thrilling. Now that I'm taking something that I know extremely well like the back of my hand, and I look at it anew. And that's, that's really exciting for me.
Doug Shafer:
That’s gotta be fun. So you guys, you're together. It's a partnership. You're making the wines here and he's over in France making wine right now this time of year. So how do you do that? Just get on the phone call and say, "Hey, it's tasting like this. It's looking like this." How's that work?
Adam Lee:
Y-yeah, a lot of... I mean, things like Zoom, obviously. Um, just the, uh, being able to, to be in touch with one another, FaceTime, showing him the vineyards when I'm out there. Taking pictures, um, and talking about it. And then, um, he comes over here three times a year and we taste and we blend - that was challenged by COVID. Not so much by anything else.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Adam Lee:
He wasn't able to get over here last year. So we ended up shipping samples to him. And I, uh, I did that and then ended up, uh, managed somehow to get over there in June this past year and taste with him.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, good for you. Yeah, that probably was a challenge. Um, that's neat. Well, so you got a lot going on. I got to ask you what's coming up? You got anything new? You got anything cooking?
Adam Lee:
Uh, I-
Doug Shafer:
That you, that you can talk about?
Adam Lee:
Yeah, there, there are a few, uh, different things. I mean, I consult for a few other wineries. Again Jackson's all cool with that as long as there's not anything huge, big. So I, I consult with a few different people. Uh, a vendor called Bucher here in the Russian River. Um, I play with a few things. Uh, Philippe has talked to me, uh, and another producer in Gigondas about kind of doing the, the mirror reflection of, uh, of what we do with Beau Marchais. And so instead of Philippe's vision and, uh, of Pinot here in California, maybe my vision of Grenache, there in over in Gigondas in the southern Rhone. And so that is something that we've been playing around with the idea. Uh, this year in France, uh, was not the year after the frost, that they had. And with COVID it was not the year for us to take it on. But that's, uh, there's some talks going on about that. So that could be a lot of fun.
Doug Shafer:
That'd be fun. Um, you know what, I, I really wanna make Chablis. I wanna make Chablis, there's only one place to make Chablis and that's in Chablis. Because I just love those wines so much. That's one of my dream.
Adam Lee:
I, I, I agree with you, Doug. That, it is a place that is so unique. I mean, California makes some incredible, incredible Chardonnays. But I don't think there's another place like Chablis.
Doug Shafer:
Ah, those wines, just love them, just love them. Anyway, and you know, you know, 15, 20 years ago, I didn't love them. And I do now. So again, as we change and experience different wines through life and tastes change and preferences change, and it's, uh, it's fun. It's a journey. It's a journey.
Adam Lee:
It is.
Doug Shafer:
So Mr. Lee where can people find your wines? What's the best... How can they get, get a hold of Clarice if possible? Or the Beau -Marchais and Root and Rubble? What's, how, how do they do it?
Adam Lee:
So the easiest way really is just to go to claricewinecompany.com, you can sign up there for the mailing list. Um, and, uh, most of it sold through that subscription model. Occasionally, I have some extra cases here or there. Same thing and, and by doing that, I'll get you on the Beau Marchais list, as well. So just please, you know, just go to claricewinecompany.com and you can sign up there. There's a little bit that's out but it's almost all restaurants. I, I, Blackberry Farm does some, uh, in Tennessee. Uh, coupled with the Bellagio. Th-there are more places like that to get it than Clarice really doesn't appear in retail right now. Doug Shafer:7 Got it. Got it. Alright, well Adam, thank you so much for taking the time during this busy time. I really appreciate, because I, I know what's going on with you. And same things going over here but, uh, mornings are busy, afternoons, we get a little bit of a break so it's a good time.
Adam Lee:
Thank you Doug. This was fantastic. It was good to catch up. And, and when we all feel a little more safe, um, in getting together in person. Let's drink some Chablis together.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs) Sold, my friend. You take it, you take it easy, great talking to you. Thanks for sharing your story.
Adam Lee:
Take care.
Doug Shafer:
I'll see you. Bye.