Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Hey everybody, welcome back it Doug Shafer, another episode of The Taste. We've got a special guest today, Gerald Casale. Gerald, welcome.
Gerald Casale:
Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, Gerald, we just met today, but, uh-
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I've known of you for a long, long time because, uh, you're best known as a musician. Gerald was a bass player for the band Devo and-
Gerald Casale:
And founder.
Doug Shafer:
And founder.
Gerald Casale:
And songwriter.
Doug Shafer:
And songwriter, and music producer and one point a wine educator and now a Napa Valley vintner. So-
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
We've got a lot to talk about today.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But I gotta tell you, years ago, how did I discover Devo.
Gerald Casale:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
I was teaching Junior High School in Tucson, Arizona.
Gerald Casale:
Oh, wow.
Doug Shafer:
1979, 80, 81. I'm teach- I'm 23. I'm country rock Eagles-
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
-all that stones and my kids who were 13 and 14... My students.
Gerald Casale:
Your students.
Doug Shafer:
I don't have kids. All of a sudden I'm walking through the quad one day and some guys got a, you know, boom box. Remember what boom boxes were and this and this, this, this sound is coming out of this thing I say, "What is that?" And they're like, "Hey Mr. Shafer, this is really cool it's a Devo." And I was like, so, that was, that was the beginning for Devo for me. Tucson, Arizona. So thank you. Um-
Gerald Casale:
That was in great period in history. It really was.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, it was nuts.
Gerald Casale:
Well, there was such an explosion of creativity right then and so many great bands, very diverse sounds, all, everybody was unique. And, uh, it just seemed like, every three months, there was a new sound and a new, you know, a new direction.
Doug Shafer:
Well, and you guys were totally unique. I don't think, you know, and what, you know, I want to start in the beginning.
Gerald Casale:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
But before we do that, give me a, give us, because a lot of folks might not know Devo. What were you guys doing? What was the music? Well, I mean, how would you, would, can you categorize what you guys were doing?
Gerald Casale:
Well, that's why we call it the Devo. You know, it, you couldn't characterize it.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughing)
Gerald Casale:
Because what we were doing was kind of, uh, almost conceptual.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
You know, it was experimental and conceptual. Started in the mid ‘70s in Ohio. I'm, I met at Kent State University because I was a student there.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
And he was coming from Akron to take art classes and I was a full-time student. And I kept seeing his work and he kept seeing mine, we go, "We have to meet, we have to check it out." Then we both, both found out we played music. And I didn't like the music he played, and he didn't like the music I played. So we agreed that we'd, uh, have the same approach to music as we did to art, which was, if it looked like something else we'd stop doing it. So if it sounded like something else-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay.
Gerald Casale:
-we'd stop doing it. So we started with a tabula rasa, and agreed that we were going to strip everything down to some elemental, you know, back to the primal state of things-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Gerald Casale:
-and start from there. And I had this whole philosophy at the time about de-evolution.
Doug Shafer:
De-evolution-
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
-which is the, the source of the name, right?
Gerald Casale:
Right, that's got shortened to Devo.
Doug Shafer:
Aha.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, I was trying to do de-evolution art is what I was trying to do. Strip it all down. So we did it with music. And we started experimenting, and we hit something we both liked together. And that became the Devo sound that we created. And it was, you know, there was substance to it. It wasn't just style.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
It was ideas.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
And he, he had a Minimoog, right?
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
And I, I was obsessed with drum and bass stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
And we found that, that kind of primal driving-
Doug Shafer:
Its-
Gerald Casale:
-rhythm. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
-it's, it's great. I mean, if I'm ever having a, a slow morning-
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
-and I need something in the car-
Gerald Casale:
Oh men.
Doug Shafer:
-to get me going,-
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
-boom.
Gerald Casale:
Sure.
Doug Shafer:
Play a Devo.
Gerald Casale:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
So going all the way back. Born and raised in-
Gerald Casale:
Ohio.
Doug Shafer:
-Ohio.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Akron.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
What was that like?
Gerald Casale:
Um-
Doug Shafer:
50s, 60s. years, right?
Gerald Casale:
Sad (laughing). You know, it was, uh, it was the end of the Industrial Revolution and all the tire companies were moving out of town. So the economy was tanking. You know, it was blue collar, it was, you know, a lot of religious fundamentalism.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gerald Casale:
Very anti-intellectual, you know, not, not conducive to artists and creative people. But, you know, that kind of, always works in its own way. Like, when you look at artists and musicians, they always came from these kind of pressure cooker downtrodden areas that made them stronger.
Doug Shafer:
I'm with you. So Akron back then, slow play, slow economy.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
How did you get into art? That was, was that something from a kid you were-
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
-just, you just loved it?
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, you know, I don't think people really choose on that level. I think you're driven by some imperative to do what you do.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
And some people are lucky enough to find out what that is sooner than later. And I was always drawing, I was always writing, always thinking, and it just was, it was in me.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
And it had to come out as John Lee Hooker said, "Gentlemen it's gotta come out."
Doug Shafer:
So, so school and high school was more art and drawing was it, was it or just sports activities stuff?
Gerald Casale:
You know, I was, yeah, you know, I think part of me always tried in the beginning to fit in, you know, I kind of gravitated towards the, the preppy kids that were headed for college. And, and I was accepted because I could, I had a sense of humor, and I could draw. So like the jocks didn't want to beat me up because they'd ask me to draw pinup girls, right? So I draw them pinup girls. And then, "He's okay." Right?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
And then the greaser guys, I draw hot rods for them. So they didn't, they didn't beat me up at football games or anything. And I was coordinated. I was, uh, you know, I played, uh, baseball.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
I played football until the 10th grade then kids got too big-
Doug Shafer:
They get too big.
Gerald Casale:
-and I was getting creamed. And I, I was a receiver and I, I received all right (Both laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Well, that's, um, that's challenging because it's, it, when I think about that because the, the peer pressure especially, you know, I don't know about you, but I can remember, I can remember junior high and high school like yesterday.
Gerald Casale:
Sure.
Doug Shafer:
When all the, the, just the stuff. And I know it's, it's probably miniscule now. It's no big deal. It's junior high or high school, but in your, in your life experiences those are, for me, those are just the, that shaped my life.
Gerald Casale:
Well, and you know what?
Doug Shafer:
You know.
Gerald Casale:
In a way, it never ends.
Doug Shafer:
It's-
Gerald Casale:
I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, it's different levels.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah. But I mean, it's all high school in terms of interaction.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
Social order, uh, the duplicity, um, you know, sabotage, whatever. We, it just gets from a small micro level in a little town to the whole nation and it's the same thing going on.
Doug Shafer:
And the only thing, the only reason I think I survive and make it is I just as I've gotten older, I've gotten more confidence and-
Gerald Casale:
Sure.
Doug Shafer:
-it's because of life experience.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Because well, back then you don't have any confidence.
Gerald Casale:
No.
Doug Shafer:
Life experienced looks like. This is-
Gerald Casale:
Everything is devastating.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, everything's devastating. You know, you know, she didn't you know, she didn't pass me a note back.
Gerald Casale:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
You know, it's the end of the world.
Gerald Casale:
So, yeah, I lucked out because I had two high school teachers that actually, you know, helped me and directed me to get a scholarship to be able to go to college, otherwise I could have never gone.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. So, um, and brothers sisters.
Gerald Casale:
Oh, yeah. You know, I came from a Catholic family so they didn't believe in birth control, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gerald Casale:
And so yeah, there was-
Doug Shafer:
How many?
Gerald Casale:
Five children.
Doug Shafer:
Five kids.
Gerald Casale:
And there would have been seven. My mom had a set of twins though they didn't survive.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Gerald Casale:
But there were five. And I was the oldest. So I really took the brunt of all the authoritarianism and all the responsibility. I was the babysitter de facto of all the time.
Doug Shafer:
So big responsibility early on. Plus you get the heavy cause I've got kids and my oldest is like, you know, the youngest gets away with murder, you know.
Gerald Casale:
That's true.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. So-
Gerald Casale:
That's true.
Doug Shafer:
I don't know if it's just the parent gets more experience or just the parent gets kind of tired.
Gerald Casale:
Both. They get beat up-
Doug Shafer:
I think they get beat up.
Gerald Casale:
-and they decide to leave the kid alone, which really works out.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
They become well adjusted.
Doug Shafer:
How about you folks? What, what were they doing?
Gerald Casale:
Uh, you know, they were, you know, my mom was just a, well, a housewife that, you know, worked all day long because she had all these children, right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
And so she had to cook and take care of the kids in the house and, and my dad worked all day. He was a, he was a technician he, he made molds for the aerospace industry. So they had, you know, tolerances of thousands of an inch, you know, for these parts for planes and rockets and stuff.
Doug Shafer:
And that's back before computers-
Gerald Casale:
Oh, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
[inaudible 00:10:07] so everything had to be done-
Gerald Casale:
All of them.
Doug Shafer:
-with the slide rule and you have to just think about that.
Gerald Casale:
It was manual cutting of blocks of steel.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Gerald Casale:
There was no CAD CAMs or anything.
Doug Shafer:
Think about that.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, I know.
Doug Shafer:
And that was not long ago.
Gerald Casale:
No.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
This was the 50s.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Okay.
Gerald Casale:
But it got us to the moon.
Doug Shafer:
It got us to the moon.
Gerald Casale:
And how they can't even get back there.
Doug Shafer:
I know (laughing). No, I remember cause my dad flew bombers in World War Two and years ago. Once a year they'd bring, they'd bring these B24s in the Napa and he took us all up. A bunch of his kids and some grandkids. This is about eight years ago and we flew the valley at sunset, it is beautiful. But this plane, it was, he called it, he said they call it a freight train, a flying... A freight car in the air. I mean, this is -
Gerald Casale:
It's frightening how crude it is, right?
Doug Shafer:
Crude.
Gerald Casale:
I know.
Doug Shafer:
I mean, just rickety rackety. I'm thinking, "God these guys for flying these things."
Gerald Casale:
I know.
Doug Shafer:
It's frightening.
Gerald Casale:
It's like when you see the Apollo capsules that went into space.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, the original ones are tiny.
Gerald Casale:
Oh my God. You had to be a suicide pilot.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Well these guys were those test pilots.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So growing up in Akron, how about, you know, you're now into wine, wine at home in Akron?
Gerald Casale:
You know what happened was, uh, you can imagine what our diet was like growing up in Akron, it was meat and potatoes, all the, all the vegetables were canned, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gerald Casale:
And it was like, the worst really, I mean, you know, the big, the big Friday night dinner if you were lucky was an overcooked rump roast that had been, you know, pot all day long, you know? And, and so when I did taste wine, it was horrible. It was like Mogen David level wine.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Gerald Casale:
Right. Night Train, Mogen David, same thing with cheese. I couldn't understand, you know, you would see these magazines with people about wine and cheese. And I thought, "This is horrible stuff." Right? And it wasn't until I went to the university and met out-of-state students who had a different life experience. I made some friends with New Yorkers.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
And they started turning me on to real wine. Right?
Doug Shafer:
Well, I'm with you.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And so cheese, you know-
Gerald Casale:
And the cheese.
Doug Shafer:
-and cheese we used to have just the American cheese. I grew up in Chicago.
Gerald Casale:
Velveeta.
Doug Shafer:
Velve- Yeah, Velveeta.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, that was all I knew about.
Doug Shafer:
Does anybody know what Velveeta is anymore?
Gerald Casale:
No. Luckily. You don't want to know.
Doug Shafer:
Well, I just started to think about trying to pair one of my wines with Velveeta.
Gerald Casale:
Oh, man.
Doug Shafer:
Maybe we should do that.
Gerald Casale:
Oh, men.
Doug Shafer:
We should give that a try. Come on. We can try that. Maybe not. Maybe not. I had the same experience in Chicago with seafood.
Gerald Casale:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
And fish. And for as I got older and married and dating a gal and you know, go out to dinner and you know, I was like, "No, I don't need fish."
Gerald Casale:
Or I need fish.
Doug Shafer:
"Because why not?" I said, "Because it's horrible."
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
There is this tuna in the can just smells and that's... And so it took me to my you know, mid 20s, 30s to realize hey, fresh fish is really good.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah. Uh, same thing happened to me. I mean, it's so sad how people get turned off to whole categories of life experiences because the first experience is so bad.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
You know. And that could happen with food. It happened with wine. And so then the big, the big revelation came when we signed our deal with Warner Brothers Records in 1977.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
And we flew out to LA because at that time, you had to be near the record company-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
-once you signed a deal. It required physical proximity.
Doug Shafer:
You had to be there.
Gerald Casale:
And we landed in the middle of the California food and wine revolution. This is when all these great experimental chefs before they became moguls, like Alice Waters, Michael McCarty, Jeremiah Tower.
Doug Shafer:
All the chefs.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, Bruce Marter, Wolfgang Puck, restaurants were opening up every three months and, and these guys were the same age as me. And they were into the new wave music and I was getting turned on to California wine and food by them in their restaurants. And it was just mind blowing. Everything changed.
Doug Shafer:
Well, okay, I'm going to circle back cause we are gonna come back to this. So cause I was curious about some, cause I've done a little research on your, on your life. So your, your art and design was... Did music kick in as a kid? Were you playing an instrument as a kid or in high school?
Gerald Casale:
I was self-taught I-
Doug Shafer:
Self-taught?
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, I got an acoustic guitar when I was like 16-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
-and started listing, you know, on my vinyl records on my record player and picking out basslines and guitar lines.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, well, cause I wondered. I didn't know how that happened.
Gerald Casale:
And then I bought a book, I think, you know, you used to be able to buy song books that came with records and it was Bob Dylan's-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gerald Casale:
-another side of Bob Dylan. I think it was when he was acoustic folkie and I loved him. And I got the book and-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
-put all the finger patterns in front of me and did it.
Doug Shafer:
Good for you. God, how cool is that? So you're, so you're, so you get a couple great teachers in high school.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
They turned you on, got a scholarship went to Kent State.
Gerald Casale:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Kent State were exact- exactly in Ohio? Which city is it in?
Gerald Casale:
It is in the town of Kent.
Doug Shafer:
Town of Kent?
Gerald Casale:
And at that time, there were only about 15,000 students there.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
It's like 45 today, 45,000 students. And it was an interesting juncture because people think, "Oh, it's the Midwest, oh, it's sleepy, it's out of it." It, actually we are not the Midwest. In northeastern Ohio, there was a, there was a conduit from Berkeley to Chicago to Kent to New York.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Gerald Casale:
So when Mark Rudd started SDS, it Columbia, he came the next year to Kent and started a chapter.
Doug Shafer:
Students for a Democratic Society.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I remember that.
Gerald Casale:
And, you know, this was the middle of protesting the Vietnam War.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gerald Casale:
Um, all these things were going on, uh, and that's how Kent became just by accident, you know, a footnote in history because-
Doug Shafer:
Well, yes. You know, you were there.
Gerald Casale:
I was there. And-
Doug Shafer:
May, May 19th, May 4th-
Gerald Casale:
May 4th, 1970. And what it was, was-
Doug Shafer:
What happened?
Gerald Casale:
-Nixon had expanded the war from Vietnam into Cambodia without an act of Congress.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
He just did it.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gerald Casale:
And back then, you know, people were pretty well apprised of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and they, these protests were all about what Nixon did that was attacking the Constitution and the rule of law. And, of course, that time, there was student outrage already because of the Vietnam War. So that protest on the Monday May Fourth was about Cambodia and Nixon.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
And there were protests all over America that day.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gerald Casale:
All for the same reason. But what we didn't realize is that the governor had made a deal with the National Guard to come in the night before and lay in wait for this protest.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, no.
Gerald Casale:
So before noon, because it was always announced.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
You know, the students are going to, they're going to gather at noon, they're going to protest.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
Before noon, the univers- the governor of the, yeah, the governor of the state announces martial law in campus, which means your first amendment rights are suspended. So the National Guard surrounds us and tells us to disperse and of course, the students are giving them the finger and hell no we're not going to go.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
Hell no we're not going to go and so they, they advance on us with tear gas, masks, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
Gas masks. They have M1 rifles with bayonets that's on them. And of course-
Doug Shafer:
Bayonets.
Gerald Casale:
-you're scared, yeah, you're scared, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
-they start marching us over the hill from the commons to this parking lot, where they're going to put us on buses send us to jail in Ravenna, Ohio. So at one point they, they stop at the top of the crest of the hill, and they do a formation and we're all like, "What are they doing now?" And we're staring at them. And people are chanting, and they get in a formation and the first row of them kneels down just like the Civil War.
Doug Shafer:
Oh my god.
Gerald Casale:
The next thing we know, they shoot at us. And it's live ammo.
Doug Shafer:
It's live ammo.
Gerald Casale:
And live ammo, nobody knew this. Nobody knew this. And there was that moment, it's like the Scorsese says he film Raging Bull where everything goes into slow motion and Jake Lamotta is getting hit in the face.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
The sound changed. Everything went away and there was a freeze frame and then boom, back to live action.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
Screaming, crying, students running and they're, there, you know, a few yards from me is Alison Krauss, who I knew, laying there with a bullet through her back. And then somebody starts screaming about Jeffrey Miller, who I knew-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, Gerald.
Gerald Casale:
-and he's about 20 feet from me on the, like road that led to the practice football field. And he got shot in the head. And long story short four students died that day and nine were wounded. One of them was paralyzed for life. And ... and I was right in the middle of it. And it, it changed me. It was, I had a nervous breakdown basically.
Doug Shafer:
Well, why wouldn't you?
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I mean-
Gerald Casale:
Nobody wants to see what real bullets do.
Doug Shafer:
No, I can't even imagine.
Gerald Casale:
It's hardcore. The exit wounds are a grotesque. An M1, M1 rifles with military bullets. I mean, it was unbelievable.
Doug Shafer:
And of course, we were there, and this made national, national news you know-
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
-cover of Life Magazine and all, I mean-
Gerald Casale:
And it's still going on 50 years later. You know, the commemorations because there was never any justice. The parents did a class action suit and lost because hey, guess what it was martial law folks and you students didn't have any rights. And of course, they were pariahs, you know the, the way the news spun it was, the students were at fault. Students threaten the National Guard.
Doug Shafer:
Right, right, yeah.
Gerald Casale:
Most people thought of how those kids deserved it. You know, those damn hippies.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, those damn hippies that was the rallying cry.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You, you're, what are you? 20, 21?
Gerald Casale:
20.
Doug Shafer:
20?
Gerald Casale:
20. (Laughs). And, and I think that changed me after that. I started reading, you know, like analysis of, uh, of the US actions in the world and government and the history. The real history of the United States.
Doug Shafer:
Did you just leave? Did you finish? Did you just say, "I not gonna get the hell out of here?"
Gerald Casale:
Well, I had to, I graduated in absentia. That was my, I was a senior.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
And I had to get my diploma in the mail because they closed off the campus for the whole summer. Nobody was allowed on campus. Our, our class didn't get to graduate. We didn't have a ceremony. (Laughs). We (laughing), I got my diploma in the mail.
Doug Shafer:
In the mail.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah. And, uh, it was, I think that's what... I was no more a Mr. Nice Guy after that. I had a kind of a radical realization about that, everything we're told is basically a fantasy and a lie. You know, like the old allegory of the cave, the Plato's, Plato's allegory of the cave, where - you react to shadows on the wall, and you have no idea what's going on outside the mouth of the cave.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right. Oh, man.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
How did you get through it?
Gerald Casale:
You know, it took, I swear there was a two year period where I-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah,
Gerald Casale:
-was kind of adrift.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
I was kind of adrift. But I stuck to my graduate school program.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
And went through that. But I met very interesting visiting professors and poets from the Black Mountain College like Black Mountain school, outside of Chicago, um, Ed Dorn, and others, and, um, that really helped me. Really these guys were smart.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah,
Gerald Casale:
And they were cool. And I became very committed bohemian at that point.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Gerald Casale:
And I started Devo in ‘73.
Doug Shafer:
You started grad, grad school, grad school at Kent state?
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So you stayed there?
Gerald Casale:
Well, because I had a scholarship to the University of Ann Arbor for grad school.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Gerald Casale:
But the governors of the four states you know, like, what was it? Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and Indiana, agreed that any student who had been part of a an official protest group or anti-war group, you, be denied you, they, you couldn't be an out of state student. So because they said, "Outside agitators caused all this." So I was now an outside agitator if I went to Ann Arbor. So I lost my scholarship and had to come back home with my tail between my legs and go to graduate school at Kent.
Doug Shafer:
How can they do that?
Gerald Casale:
They did it. It wasn't just me, it was all out of state students who had been part of any anti-war group who lost their scholarships.
Doug Shafer:
And you know, and now all these years later, you look at (laughing) I'm just having a moment here cause I was ... I'm a little younger than you. So I'm in high school watching this stuff on the nightly news with my parents and not really understanding it and just the way you know, anti-war and as it turns out, many years later, it's like, "Yeah, they were right, because it was a lousy war." I mean you know what I mean?
Gerald Casale:
I think we were on the right side of history.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, you were.
Gerald Casale:
But it took so long for people, you know, the official narrative to acknowledge that the Vietnam War was a mistake.
Doug Shafer:
It took so, it took years, decades?
Gerald Casale:
Yeah. And now it's like that is the prevailing-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
-view.
Doug Shafer:
But look at the damage. That has been done.
Gerald Casale:
Oh yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So many lives.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah. Exactly. But you and I understand that, uh, you know, the only thing that's moral really is contributing, like living and contributing, you know, not being toxic, not being evil. Making wine is fundamentally moral pursuit.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, around here we like to think, sometimes I think about, sometimes people ask me, it's like, you know, "Why do you do this? What's, what's the goal?" And I think they're talking about you know, "Oh, I'm trying to make a fruity balanced, blah, blah, blah, wine, you know, set." And they go, "No, no, no, no. Why, why do you really do, do this?"
Gerald Casale:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And it was a few years ago I was kicking their ass like, it's it's a great way to bring joy to people's lives.
Gerald Casale:
Exactly. And it's, it's just, it's spiritual in a way-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gerald Casale:
-cause this is combination of art and farming and wine is a living thing that keeps changing, and you're working with the earth, you're working with nature, and then you're creating this thing that does bring joy to people. You know, it's not just like a bottle of vodka. (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
No, exactly.
Gerald Casale:
You know.
Doug Shafer:
And what's so cool is you and I could take the same ton of grapes, exact same grapes.
Gerald Casale:
Completely different wine.
Doug Shafer:
You take it to your place and I take my place, and then we meet up two years and say let's taste them.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's like different animals.
Gerald Casale:
Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
That's, that's the magic of this stuff.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, exactly.
Doug Shafer:
Cool. All right. So, this is, this is really fun.
Gerald Casale:
Right,
Doug Shafer:
So, grad school. So this one, this one Devo. So, how did-
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
-how did it form? You know, I mean, how do you do that? How do you do that? How do you form a world-renowned rock band? A music band?
Gerald Casale:
Well, I had these ideas and I kept trying in my own way to apply this, this philosophy of de-evolution cause that's what I decided was going on in the world is what I saw. I labeled it as de-evolution.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
I didn't think people were getting smarter, I didn't see progress, I had grown up in the ‘50s and ‘60s with these visions of you know flying cars and domed cities and you know-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
-future that was-
Doug Shafer:
The futuristic thing?
Gerald Casale:
-we didn't have to work anymore.
Doug Shafer:
The Jetsons.
Gerald Casale:
Instead what I was looking at was demise of social order infrastructure. People seemed to be getting dumber. They were repeating sound bites and ad from you know, and slogans from TV. And, and I kept trying to you know, apply this visual aesthetic to music and I, I can say that I wasn't doing a great job of that 'cause I was too mired in blues music.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
My stuff was too blues oriented.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Gerald Casale:
So it was academic and, and that's what happened after meeting Mark. He was, he was of course, a trendy guy.
Doug Shafer:
He wasn't in the blues?
Gerald Casale:
No he wasn't, but what he did, he was imitating all these guys like Emerson, Lake and Palmer.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Gerald Casale:
And all the prog rock. Right?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
Where it was just how many notes can you play? How many times signatures can you change to? And I didn't like that. I thought it was indulgent. I thought it was masturbatory.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
So that's when we agreed, "Okay, you won't do what you're doing, I won't do what I'm doing. We're going to make something as original as our visual art and if it sounds like other music, we stop right there." And so we really set a high bar for ourselves. And, you know, it's like a class project, right? "Here's the problem class."
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
"See what you can do with this." And so it became inspirational to put your mind to making this idea come to life in reality, like, "Where's the proof?" You know, proof of concept.
Doug Shafer:
That must have been wow, I bet you're like, you know, you're waking up in the middle of the night just, right?
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Just, yeah, just-
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, your mind would race it couldn't wait.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
You know, that's, that was the collaboration. You couldn't wait to get back together the next day, had all these ideas. Maybe you had some basic thing you recorded on a little four track and now you were gonna work on it. And it was just, that's all you thought about, you know, it just became obsessive. And that's what we spent all our time on. And of course, we were looked at as idiots. I mean, the prevailing culture was like-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah
Gerald Casale:
-these poor dummies. Oh my god, they're sad.
Doug Shafer:
This won't last. What a bunch of nuts.
Gerald Casale:
You know-
Doug Shafer:
For those of you who don't know Devo, just get on your computer and go YouTube Devo some songs and you'll see what we're talking about. But all right -
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, 'cause can you imagine, you know, Jocko Homo was written in 1975.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
You can imagine what people thought when they heard us playing Jocko Homo in 1975.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughing).
Gerald Casale:
They just thought, "Oh, these people are nuts and they're losers." You know. And of course, the guy that was the manager of the local McDonald's, he's the one that got all the girls and all the dates.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
We couldn't even find a girlfriend.
Doug Shafer:
'cause he's got the, you know, free double Macs or whatever.
Gerald Casale:
No.
Doug Shafer:
So are you guys playing gigs? Are you recording? Are you just-
Gerald Casale:
We're pretty much in basements and garages and then once in a while, what would happen is I would pretend to be the group's manager, and convince some little club owner that we were a cover band.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
So that, and this was part of our, you know, pranks on people.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
We love playing pranks. So we'd show up and of course, we didn't cover any songs and I'd go, "Okay, this is one by Bad Company." And then we'd play Devo's, Be Stiff. And you just see the crowd, like-
Doug Shafer:
Devo's, Be Stiff.
Gerald Casale:
-take them about a minute and realize, "That's not Bad Company." And then they start screaming at us and get really pissed off. You know, we got paid two different occasions to quit playing. Like the bar owner said, "Look, I'll give you 75 bucks. Just quit now." Right? And we thought that was a big victory.
Doug Shafer:
That's funny. Did they ever throw stuff at you?
Gerald Casale:
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I remember it was some movie where there's a cowboy band and they, they, oh, it was, it's the Blues Brothers.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Where they're playing the Cowboy bar and there's a screen and people are throwing beer bottles at them.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, we had those experiences. We played in a Halloween party, in Cleveland, Ohio. And the, everybody was in costume. And it was for a radio station and they, they had taken all their guests and given them nitrous oxide.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughing).
Gerald Casale:
They had, you know girls who are dressed like prostitutes, guys are dressed like Frankenstein.
Doug Shafer:
Right?
Gerald Casale:
Or the devil. And now we're playing in front of them. And that takes them about five minutes. And they're throwing cans and bottles of beer at us. And the one guy just walks up on stage, grabs the microphone out of my hand, and pushes me down and, and throws, and throws the mic down and breaks it. And, and our, you know, our sound man, and our guitar guy that was helping us out, tried to protect us, but we had to go offstage and we had to go in the back-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
-in the dressing room. And then we had to go out the back door.
Doug Shafer:
They were gunning for you.
Gerald Casale:
But, you know, we were in our costumes. And so we went to the car, we dressed in our street clothes. We came back as guests. They didn't recognize us, 'cause we had had clear plastic masks and put uniforms on.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
And, uh, yeah, we came back and Sun Ra came on at midnight. Sun Ra. We got to see Sun Ra.
Doug Shafer:
Oh my gosh.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah. And then and then in, in Liverpool is what you're talking about happened.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
There was literally a, a chicken wire screen -
Doug Shafer:
A chicken wire. That's it.
Gerald Casale:
-between, you know, the floor and the ceiling. Between the stage and, and where the crowd stood and we go, "What's this?" They go, "Oh, you'll see mate, you'll see." I go, "what?"
Doug Shafer:
In Liverpool.
Gerald Casale:
Oh my God. Just these guys just started spitting at us that was part of the ritual gobbing they called it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
Spitting at us, climbing this chicken wire fence screaming like, it look like Island of The Lost Souls, the move. We were so glad for that barrier (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Didn't these guys who book bands don't they ever, you know, get a tape and realize what they're getting into?
Gerald Casale:
Well, you know, if they're smart they do. Things were very open and loose back then. You know?
Doug Shafer:
That's just nuts.
Gerald Casale:
Thing's didn't have a roadmap back then yet.
Doug Shafer:
Hey, I just, I just thought of some, how did you guys come up with the costumes? Was that-
Gerald Casale:
That was me.
Doug Shafer:
Is that you?
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Brilliant, brilliant.
Gerald Casale:
We, uh, we, we just hated what was going on in stadium rock and-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
-all these guys prancing around in, um, like platform shoes-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Gerald Casale:
-and spandex pants and look at me, look at my big hair. And so we were just reacting to all that. And I said, "Well, we're going to do something very austere and kind of, you know, industrial and foolproof." And, uh, I found those yellow suits in a janitorial supply catalog. And I realized, well, if you put a cinch belt on them-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
-so that it was complimentary to the body.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
We put a logo on it. It won't look like uniforms that were designed for people to spray dangerous chemicals. That's what they were for.
Doug Shafer:
That's what they were, they were hazmat’s, yeah.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah. So and we cut our hair short and people went nuts because they were laughing their asses off at us like we were fools-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
-or they just thought it was so cool and futuristic and whacked, right? They couldn't quit watching.
Doug Shafer:
Well, you hit, you know, you, you hit it.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You hit it. And then what happened? When the big break was, was the Bowie the big break?
Gerald Casale:
I'll say-
Doug Shafer:
Did Bowie sow with you guys?
Gerald Casale:
Bowie-
Doug Shafer:
What's, what happened there?
Gerald Casale:
Bowie heard a tape. You know, we had, we had gone to see Iggy Pop on the Idiot Tour. And Bowie was playing keyboards for him and we saw him in Cleveland, Ohio, at Swing Goes (laughs). And we left a tape. Turns out, Iggy listened to it and gave it to David. And we found this out months later, in a roundabout way. And we met David's attorney Stan Diamond out in LA when we went out there.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
And he hooked us up.
Doug Shafer:
So you so they called you up and said and you, gave you a contract?
Gerald Casale:
Well, he wanted to produce us-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
And he wanted us to sign to his label Bewlay Brothers, which had a production deal with Warner Brothers. But then, you know, I had apprised myself of the music business by that point and-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
-the deal was bad.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
I mean, we love David Bowie, but it was a bad deal.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, well, good for you.
Gerald Casale:
Well, because they're gonna give you, a record company is going to give him $500,000 an album, he's going to turn around and give us $200,000 now, but, but he's going to recoup all the 500,000 out of our sales, even though we only have received two.
Doug Shafer:
Oooo.
Gerald Casale:
That's not a good deal.
Doug Shafer:
That's not a good deal (laughing).
Gerald Casale:
So I told Warner Brothers, "No, we want a direct deal." You know, like, "No, you know, that's your deal." And I go, "Well, we can't do it."
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Gerald Casale:
So then David, he, he's like, "Well, then I'm not going to produce the record here. Have Brian Eno, you'll like him. He'll produce the record." And Brian Eno-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, really.
Gerald Casale:
-agreed with Warner Brothers that he'd produce the record in the same German studio that David was going to use.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
Where they had worked together on the album Low. And that, you know, he agreed to not get paid until Warner Brothers gave us a deal. Because he, he assured Warner Brothers that if he produced the record, they're going to want it. So they agreed what he'd get paid up front-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
-if they're going to pay him. And they agreed what they'd give us. So as a right of first refusal, like, "If we like this record, here's what we'll give you."
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
And it was a good deal. So we went to Germany and we recorded with Brian Eno and it all worked.
Doug Shafer:
Is he the one that wanted to change your style? I read somewhere somebody wanted you guys to change your music sometime. Was that-
Gerald Casale:
Well, he wanted to make it prettier. He, he didn't like the industrial edge it had, he thought it was too nasty. And he had gotten-
Doug Shafer:
No, is great.
Gerald Casale:
Well, at that point in his life, you know, he'd gotten Zenned out, he was no longer the guy that was in Roxy Music. He was doing a lot of that ambient beautiful music.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
Music for airports, and stuff. And he had developed these set of cards called oblique strategies that had all these like, kind of Zen like sayings almost, you know what I mean?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
Like almost Haiku stuff, right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
And he shuffled the deck and then-
Doug Shafer:
Give you a card?
Gerald Casale:
He would read it and, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That was supposed to change you -
Gerald Casale:
No, we thought, "Oh boy, this is corny." (Laughing) This is corny. Because I mean, God we had, we had worked on this stuff for years at that point, right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, 'cause you've been, yeah. So at this point you're going, you're recording but you've been together six, seven years?
Gerald Casale:
Well-
Doug Shafer:
Or something like that? Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
Solidly four.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
Solidly four with the same lineup.
Doug Shafer:
That's a long time.
Gerald Casale:
And we had, we had like 50 songs that we were like culling from, for album one, right? And we were committed to playing them a certain way. We couldn't think of playing them another way.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
So-
Doug Shafer:
And so-
Gerald Casale:
Brian put a lot of tracks on our records and a lot of harmonies and then when it came to the final mixes, Mark and I were pulling them down (Both laughing).
Doug Shafer:
So-
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Uh, well, good. You did well, my friend.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So but I'm, I was looking at a bunch of stuff a couple days ago, but you know, you guys say that, you know that cover of Satisfaction that cover of Working in a Coal Mine.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I mean that's just I mean, but I'm looking at, I'm listening to the music in my car and it's just like I'm like thinking these guys are really having fun.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I mean-
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
-was it, was it just fun?
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, it was fun and that was part of it. You know we were mutating things and we had a sense of humor. But we weren't trying to make comical music, you know.
Doug Shafer:
No.
Gerald Casale:
When people, when, you know when we re-did Satisfaction, um, Jann Wenner of Rolling Stone, decided we were the devil. He hated us. He thought we were making fun of the Rolling Stones right?
Doug Shafer:
No.
Gerald Casale:
And we weren't at all.
Doug Shafer:
No.
Gerald Casale:
We were trying to use a classic song that we loved to show people what Devo meant. Like here, this is how Devo would do Satisfaction, right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
So that was again, proof of concept, something that somebody could understand maybe because it wasn’t original. It was a, you know, a cover, but a whacked cover. But we had to play it for Mick Jagger to be allowed to put it on the record because the legal people considered what we'd done a parody. And back then intellectual property was taken seriously.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Gerald Casale:
Like you do a parody, you had to get the permission of the writer.
Doug Shafer:
So-
Gerald Casale:
So we flew to New York, Mark and I and played it.
Doug Shafer:
Played it in front of him, live?
Gerald Casale:
Right there. No, we played it on a boombox. And it was in Peter Rudge’s office, who's the big evil manager at The Rolling Stones-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
-at the time. Who ended up getting indicted for fraud and all kinds of other stuff but he, we're in this beautiful office, Midtown New York, fireplace going, oversized brown leather club chairs. Jagger walks in, it's like 1:00 in the afternoon and he was staying in some apartment in the building.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
And he came in just he didn't have any shoes on he had velour flared pants and a velour turtleneck, uh, matching turtleneck.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
And a glass of red wine. And he's polite and he, he sits down and goes, "All right, let's hear it then." We put it on the boom box and we're thinking, "Oh man."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, this is not gonna go well.
Gerald Casale:
We're shaking in our boots, you know, we feel like Wayne's World, like-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
- we’re not worthy. And he starts swirling the wine and he sits it down on this afghan rug next to the chair, and he gets up. And he's in his stocking feet and there's hardwood floors. He starts dancing like Mick Jagger in front of the fireplace to the song.
Doug Shafer:
To the song. You got to be kidding me.
Gerald Casale:
It was like, "Wow man." (Laughing)
Doug Shafer:
He did that.
Gerald Casale:
He goes, "I like it. I like it." You know, of course we were just elated and -
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah.
Gerald Casale:
We flew back to LA that following Monday and went straight to our manager's office we had just signed with Elliot Roberts. He was Neil Young's manager. And if he was good enough for Neil Young, he was good enough for us.
Doug Shafer:
No kidding. And you did something with Neil Young. Didn't you guys, did the movie?
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, we, we, we, worked on his movie with him, Human Highway. That's how we met earlier.
Doug Shafer:
Which is a kind of cult classic.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah. And we go, "Elliot, you wouldn't believe it. He liked it so much." He goes, "Yeah, yeah." He goes, "Listen, before you even got there, I called Peter Rudge. And I told him to tell Mick to act like he liked it, because you guys are going to make him a lot of money on that cover."
Doug Shafer:
Oh, no. Oh, no.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah. You'll see?
Doug Shafer:
Was that a heartbreaker?
Gerald Casale:
You'll see. Oh, yeah, because, you know, this is, you're getting a fast education. You know, you're moving from innocence to experience in Hollywood really fast.
Doug Shafer:
Really fast.
Gerald Casale:
And, uh, and, and because we had to, we didn't retain any of the publishing because that was part of the deal. Like, "Oh, I'll let you cover but it's ours."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah. And, you know, even there-
Doug Shafer:
But, but it worked out but you'd benefit you guys 'cause-
Gerald Casale:
Of course it did.
Doug Shafer:
Of course I mean, it's because of that, that, you know, connection with - all these stuffs.
Gerald Casale:
All these experiences were life changing.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
Saturday Night Live was just a life changing.
Doug Shafer:
When were you guys on there? Once or twice?
Gerald Casale:
Well, that was October, I think it was October 18th 1978 we go on Saturday Night Live.
Doug Shafer:
Boom. That'll do it.
Gerald Casale:
We went from playing 300 seat clubs to two and 3000 seaters because of that-
Doug Shafer:
Because of that show.
Gerald Casale:
-TV show.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Gerald Casale:
You know, something like 12 million people saw us that day.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
And we were, we played well.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
Because we had been playing so often and so much that we were tight.
Doug Shafer:
When you guys were, so you're touring a lot, you're playing a lot. I mean, I've always been curious because I've never met personally, someone like you who has done this and did that. I mean, that lifestyle. You're on the road all the time. Is there, is there a home, is there any type of you know, I'm going use the term normal, well, normal is what you know. Well, normal is what you know.
Gerald Casale:
No. I mean, you know, no, there isn't a home. I mean, you, yeah, you're back in town. But I have to say, See, I loved it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
I loved it. Because growing up, I didn't have a good association with my home. It was oppressive. Right?
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
And I would never get to travel. I didn't see the world at all. You know, I saw Cleveland and Akron basically. Or maybe Detroit, I drove to Detroit-
Doug Shafer:
Detroit.
Gerald Casale:
-to the Blues Festival that was about it. So, for me, every city was exciting, you know, and everything was an experience and I loved hotel rooms personally.
Doug Shafer:
I, I spent a lot of time there too. I do too.
Gerald Casale:
And especially when we started making money and the hotels got nicer.
Doug Shafer:
Get nicer. Um, so, and so if you're going into, you're on tour, you're doing a show, but you still have maybe one or two days in that town a lot of time so you can explore.
Gerald Casale:
That's right. And that's how, that's how the fascination with wine really kicked off.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I was gonna... I wondered if that's how it kicked in.
Gerald Casale:
Okay, well, again-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
-we go to California. These guys are turning me on, I'm tasting, you know, I had your, your experience with cheese where you go or fish you said "I don't eat fish." Right?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
I was like, "I don't like wine and they laughed at me right?"
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Gerald Casale:
And I said, "Here try this." And I remember here Michael McCarty at Michael's restaurant, "Here eat my spaghettini with salmon roe and drink this Kistler Chardonnay, right? It's like, "I get it." And so when we were on the road promoters were oftentimes even if they were unscrupulous they tended to be educated people and because they had money they got to do cool things. So I remember our first trip to Europe where we toured Europe-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
-the Italian promoter said, "Hey, Devo, I'm going out to Castello di Ama, you want to come?" You know, and it's like, everybody else is like, "No, we're going to shop in town." And I go, "I want to come." And seeing-
Doug Shafer:
But it is a gorgeous property.
Gerald Casale:
Oh my God.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, it's gorgeous and the hills.
Gerald Casale:
And seeing this life style, all right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
And the guy had a shift there. And we go into the caves with the spring and stuff out. And I just was-
Doug Shafer:
[inaudible 00:45:08]. Yeah. Okay.
Gerald Casale:
-so envious of this like, "This is the life." My God, and you're only like 45 minutes out of Florence, right?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
So it's town and country, it's incredible. And the, and the food and the wine was mind blowing. I still remember having some weird, like some ravioli with ewe’s milk and black truffles that was like baked in the oven and just-
Doug Shafer:
Boom. Right there.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Nothing fancy boom, and really good glass of red wine.
Gerald Casale:
Oh, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Which is so good.
Gerald Casale:
You know what, they were making Pinot Noir these guys at Castello di Ama.They called it Pinot Nero. And it was first time I-
Doug Shafer:
In the heart in the heart of Tuscany.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, because this is when the Italian winemakers broke with tradition. You know, they didn't care if they got the rooster on the bottle anymore.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
And so they were making the super Tuscans.
Doug Shafer:
The super Tuscans.
Gerald Casale:
But these guys in addition to that were making Pinot Nero.
Doug Shafer:
Pinot Nero.
Gerald Casale:
And I think were the only ones doing it. It was quite good at a very French style. And I got addicted to the French... I mean, that's what happened. I, as a kid, not a kid, as a 30 year old, I start, you know, getting turned on to wine and of course in California, it's all these massive Cabernets.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
Everybody's like losing it over these big Cabernets, the over-oaked malolactic Chardonnays-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Gerald Casale:
-that’re like milkshakes. And of course, when you're, you know, when you're new, that stuff all tastes amazing 'cause it's this flavor overload.
Doug Shafer:
Right?
Gerald Casale:
Crazy.
Doug Shafer:
You can't You can't miss it.
Gerald Casale:
No.
Doug Shafer:
Boom, it's right there.
Gerald Casale:
But then as we traveled, and I drank, you know, Barolos and Barbaresco and some Antinori super Tuscans, and then we get to France and I'm tasting really good Bordeaux's for the first time. And then-
Doug Shafer:
What happened?
Gerald Casale:
-this French guy takes us to La Coupole after a show and he orders some Burgundy and it was, uh, God what was it? It was, it was Chambolle-Musigny and but I remember just suddenly, like, I couldn't stop thinking about this flavor like-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
You know, I'd go back to my cabs and these big-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
-you in the face wines. And I kept thinking about that.
Doug Shafer:
That wine?
Gerald Casale:
And then I started educating myself about Pinot Noir grapes.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
And the older I got, the more I just, I was a junkie for Pinot. That was it. And I thought, "If I ever get to make wine, that's the first one I'm going to make because that's the one I'm passionate about that I want to make that varietal.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
You know. And so when I got the opportunity here because of my partnership with this restoration architect-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gerald Casale:
-who's still trying to build the Mies van der Rohe 50 by 50 house that he designed and 1950 that we're still trying to make that our tasting room. Uh, but he, my partner owned 25 acres up on Monticello road in Napa. And I, I knew, you know, before I even started thinking about growing or sourcing grapes that I wasn't interested in Pinot Noir from Napa.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.
Gerald Casale:
So I spent a year trying to find a source for Pinot Noir in Sonoma.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Gerald Casale:
Hopefully Russian River but that was too expensive. But I found in Sonoma coast I found what I wanted, which because I wanted 667 clones and Pommard clones. That was what I decided is the blend I liked the best. And I found the source and started becoming a fledgling winemaker. Released my first, I released a 2012 in 2014.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
And people liked it. I mean, you know, is the people I could get it to and I had it in a dozen restaurants in LA, I had it in wine shops like K&L up here in San Francisco and down in LA and, uh, got it into Wally's.
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Gerald Casale:
Mr. Navarro liked it. And, you know, I made a very, very on purpose French style austere, you know, fruit suppressed Pinot Noir, right? Balanced.
Doug Shafer:
You, You brought me a bottle-
Gerald Casale:
I did.
Doug Shafer:
-with the label, the label is 50 by 50-
Gerald Casale:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
-is the name of the brand and I love that style myself. So I'm looking forward to try this.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So is my wife.
Gerald Casale:
It matches with food. See, that's-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And that's where and that's where your whole-
Gerald Casale:
That's how it started.
Doug Shafer:
-wine education came from.
Gerald Casale:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
It came from those experiences.
Gerald Casale:
The pairings are the best.
Doug Shafer:
Thanks for this man.
Gerald Casale:
Because it makes the wine and the food another level. I never just drink wine to drink wine. I mean, maybe Rose. I do like good dry Rose, and I make Rose. And I, for Rose, uh, the, the grapes I have from Sonoma, uh, are too big, too hardy.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
So I found a source Ranky Vineyards in Carneros and I just use 667 and I just make the Rose on purpose. We pick for Rose. We're picking it brix level, you know it's not some afterthought or one off.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
It's, we're making the Rose.
Doug Shafer:
You're you're making the Rose and the Pinot?
Gerald Casale:
And now I'm trying to make a white Pinot.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Gerald Casale:
I'll tell you what happened.
Doug Shafer:
Wait a minute, you can't make a white Pinot. Because that's going to be Rose. How you gonna do that?
Gerald Casale:
No.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. All right.
Gerald Casale:
I'll tell you who- I'll tell you who, it, it was, what's his name? Tony Riedner.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
Tony Riedner was a winemaker that worked for Domaine Serene for years. So he started making white Pinot Noir called The Pretender. And I talked to him in Portland at this incredible wine bar where they had The Pretender and I didn't know what it was. I was given blind. Right and I'm trying to guess that it's some high end Albarino, Albarino-
Doug Shafer:
Albarino.
Gerald Casale:
Or something. Maybe a, maybe it's a Pinot Bianco from-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
- Venetzia or something, you know, I told -
Doug Shafer:
Pinot Gris. Yeah, something like that.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, they go, "No, look. white Pinot." Doug Shafer Wow's he gets, how's he doing without getting any color?
Gerald Casale:
Well -
Doug Shafer:
If you can't tell me it's all right. You don't have to.
Gerald Casale:
No, no, he would only give me hints. He goes, "Good luck." He gave me a lot of pointers. Yeah. He gave me a lot of pointers and you know what, there are white Pinots that do have a hint of pink.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Gerald Casale:
But they don't have any flavor of Rose. This, this was bone dry, but with a beautiful silken finish on the tongue because it's Pinot Noir grapes. And I, I loved it because it was such a great alternative to chard.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah.
Gerald Casale:
And I just thought, "Well, everybody in the world's making Chardonnay, I can't bring myself to do it. You know, I wouldn't even want to compete."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, it's crowded.
Gerald Casale:
But I want to make white Pinot. And so we experimented last year and it was pink.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
I didn't release it.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
But this year, it's looking promising. It's, uh-
Doug Shafer:
All right.
Gerald Casale:
We picked a little riper. We did a whole cluster press right away. There's maybe the slightest tinge of pinkness but it actually it's in the barrel in, in-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gerald Casale:
-you know, French oak and, but blonde, blonde oak.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Gerald Casale:
And it's tasting promising.
Doug Shafer:
All right.
Gerald Casale:
Think I'm-
Doug Shafer:
If you bottle that puppy I want-
Gerald Casale:
Oh yeah.
Doug Shafer:
-I want a phone call.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
Doug Shafer:
And I'm, I'm buying.
Gerald Casale:
But 'cause, you know, I'm just this fledgling little, I produce some four to 500 cases. That's what I'm doing.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's great. I mean, and you've been doing it for five years now?
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And it's called 50 by 50?
Gerald Casale:
50 by 50.
Doug Shafer:
And you've got a spot in the Wooden Valley. You've got a vineyard there. Wooden Valley which is-
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
-southeast, southeast Napa Valley.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, it's it up, up Monticello road.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
3576.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
And that's where we're still trying to get that house finished and open to the public. You know, the barn is finished.
Doug Shafer:
Well tell us, well tell us about this house 'cause, in this architect, this is a good story.
Gerald Casale:
Mies van der Rohe-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
-the preeminent, you know, architect from Europe that came from the Bauhaus school with Walter Gropius. And he came to Chicago from Vienna. And, and he single handedly, you know, created that international style that we all know that we all start to call mid-century modern now, um, of clean rectilinear lines steel and glass, you know, function determining the form.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gerald Casale:
Materials that last are durable like, you know, polished concrete, um, wood veneers, stainless steel, and he designed a house that was 50 feet by 50 feet. With panels of glass walls, the each side is 50 feet, two panels of glass, 25 feet long, 10 feet high with a center post and you know, on each side that's the load bearing post-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
-that they lock into. It come together at a right angle with a Malian at the end-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gerald Casale:
- 45-degree angles and it's on a concrete pad and then the core, rooms, you, you walk around basically-
Doug Shafer:
The core of the house.
Gerald Casale:
... You walk around the core. So each room the divider comes out to about three feet within the, to the wall.
Doug Shafer:
Through the glass wall.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah. So you have a constant flow corridor and then the rooms you know, you're in a partitioned off room and there's, so there's the eating area, the dining area, two bedrooms, bathroom and an open kitchen with stainless steel counters.
Doug Shafer:
Very cool. So when you get that completed that's going to be your - will that be the, the kind of the winery?
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
If you visit the winery that's -
Gerald Casale:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Gerald Casale:
That's where you'd come and sit and drink the 50 by 50 wines.
Doug Shafer:
Cool.
Gerald Casale:
And, and maybe someday I will attempt to throw my hat in the ring with a Bordeaux style Cabernet.
Doug Shafer:
Well, you have to because-
Gerald Casale:
I have to.
Doug Shafer:
-because you're an artist, we all are, you know, it's um-
Gerald Casale:
I know and I already have the logo and you know, it Wouldn't be called the 50 by 50. Except small, but say another fine offering by the 50 by 50, but it would be called Parliament.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
I've, I've registered the name and it's a beautiful wood cut of an owl from German expressionist artists from the 30s.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, well, you need to do that.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I want to see that.
Gerald Casale:
Parliament.
Doug Shafer:
So, where are you making your wines now? Are you custom crushing?
Gerald Casale:
Right over at a barn near Judd’s Hill.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
Eric Lyman.
Doug Shafer:
That's right you mentioned that.
Gerald Casale:
You know, all the equipment’s there. I work with him.
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Gerald Casale:
We truck to stuff at night from Sonoma over-
Doug Shafer:
Over here.
Gerald Casale:
-you know, it's a single vineyard in Sonoma.
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Gerald Casale:
And we truck it out at night. I was, I still it was funny the last harvest walking you know, the, they're hand picking it but they have the big tractors with the HDL, HT, HTML lights.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Gerald Casale:
Like day for night.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Oh, it's fantastic.
Gerald Casale:
I know.
Doug Shafer:
It's so cool.
Gerald Casale:
Oh, it was great.
Doug Shafer:
I mean, and, um, we're talking about picking grapes at night which is now everyone that's all anyone does.
Gerald Casale:
You kind of have to.
Doug Shafer:
You can, it's, it's the way to do it and the benefits are just endless. But in the old days we'd start at sun up and these guys would be working until 2:00 or 3:00 in the afternoon the fruit gets to be 90 degrees and it's, it's brutal on the guys and gals picking.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And it's tough.
Gerald Casale:
And it's brutal on the wine itself. A lot can happen right there. I mean, you're picking because all the numbers are right and you're tasting the grapes right up in your you don't want that experience of that day of picking to take it over the top.
Doug Shafer:
No.
Gerald Casale:
And it can-
Doug Shafer:
It can really quickly.
Gerald Casale:
-especially now that everything's much hotter than it used to be.
Doug Shafer:
Well, we had hot years back in the 80s, too, but you know, what really helps us out is, is production because we show up at, uh, some of the guys show up at 5:36 in the morning. We've already got grapes.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And start processing.
Gerald Casale:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
In the old days, we wouldn't get grapes till noon. So we'd be here. Thank God we were young 'cause, you know, we get no sleep at all. We'd be here till 11:00 o'clock 12:00 o'clock at night.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, I felt beat up. I'm a senior citizen now and I, you know, it's not, it's not like it used to be when you're 72 things change.
Doug Shafer:
Well, you don't look 72 my friend. So kind of curious just because I'm-
Gerald Casale:
Must be the wine and the food.
Doug Shafer:
-because I'm a fan, it is the wine. Are you guys, do you still, are you still playing music? Is Devo retired?
Gerald Casale:
well, you know, that's a sore point.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
I mean, we could be playing music we, because we are now "a legacy act."
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
And because we're, we're so known for our live shows, right?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
We get offered so much more money now than we ever got offered.
Doug Shafer:
Oh my gosh, really?
Gerald Casale:
No, it's like this is it. It's now or never, right? It's like, "Oh, who's left from the 80s that was a real band that can really deliver? Oh, Devo." And Mark Mothersbaugh says "No, no, no, no." Anyway, so, it's sad because I love playing I love performing.
Doug Shafer:
I'm with you.
Gerald Casale:
Every time we play, people like it.
Doug Shafer:
Any other ways you can you prefer any other ways you can perform, perform solo or local, local stuff?
Gerald Casale:
Sure, sure I'll do that just because I love performing. But there's really no money in it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Does is Mark like Cabernet? Maybe I should go visit him take a little Cabernet
Gerald Casale:
Mark has no interest in wine. It's very funny. Well, he's he never, you know, he Yeah, he he wasn't a druggie he wasn't a wine drinker. Maybe have an occasional Martini.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. How did you guys dodge all those, those years because the years you were hot, that was just where the whole drug scene on the, on the the rock scene and drugs and-
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
-challenging?
Gerald Casale:
Well, you know, I've always been a connoisseur and a person that prides myself on not losing it like I don't over drink.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gerald Casale:
I didn't overindulge. I, I-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
-yeah I did cocaine like everybody.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
But, you know, I knew-
Doug Shafer:
It was the 80s.
Gerald Casale:
-I knew, uh, two lines is good, four lines is bad.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. That's a good one.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah. And, and, and, you know, it was treated as if, like, at 5:00 o'clock somebody goes, "Hey, Jerry, do you want a cocktail?" That's how cocaine was treated in the music business. Every and our manager at the record company had it. Every promoter had it every manager had it.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Gerald Casale:
And they'd go "Yours is shit. Try mine." And so it was like this. Everybody was convinced it wasn't addictive. It wasn't dangerous. They were convinced of it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
It was cutesy like vitamin C.
Doug Shafer:
Right?
Gerald Casale:
Right. And luckily, I escaped unscathed. I wouldn't. If I even smell it now it turns my stomach.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, there was a time where it just seemed.
Doug Shafer:
It's like having a beer.
Gerald Casale:
It was.
Doug Shafer:
Kind of.
Gerald Casale:
It really was.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, I remember that.
Gerald Casale:
And I hated needles so I never went there. I w- they had no interest in "going downtown" (laughs). I liked, I liked getting pumped up, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Well I think that, yeah, I think well the wine thing's a natural. And, you know, the other thing is. I was going to ask you about, you're not the only musician doing wine.
Gerald Casale:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
Sting. M- Pat Monahan, Train, Les Claypool.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
What do you think there was a connection with music and wine or is it just, uh-?
Gerald Casale:
I do think there's a connection with music and wine. You know, and it's a double-edged sword because unfortunately a lot of artists, a lot of recording artists put their names on shit product that somebody else makes. It's just they're dialing it in there. They had nothing to do with it.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
And, and it just gives, it gives you a bad name. And, and people look at you askance like 'Oh yeah, another celebrity trying to make wine. And so, you have to really prove yourself-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Gerald Casale:
But, w- the people you named and like Maynard from Tool-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Gerald Casale:
Uh, they're serious.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
They're totally hands on. They're really doing it. They're really there. And I've, I've tasted their wines. Um, I don't like any of them (laughs). This is my personal taste. I mean, there's, there's people that do like them. But they're very, they are very muscular in your face.
Doug Shafer:
This is, this is - hey. Art, music, wine. You and I, let's go to an art museum and see what, see how many times we agree on a piece of work.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah exactly.
Doug Shafer:
I mean, you know, it would be 10% maybe.
Gerald Casale:
Yes, very subjective, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And that's, you're not right. I'm not right.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You're not wrong. No one's right. No one's wrong.
Gerald Casale:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
That's what's fun.
Gerald Casale:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
You know, and, and you know with wine my tastes are changing all the time. But to me that's fun.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Because if I just drank Cabernet all the time, uh, it's boring.
Gerald Casale:
I couldn't do that.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
I'd, I would get beat up. I think I'd gain a lot of weight too (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Greek. Some of the white wines from Greece, I'm just doing that. I'm, I'm-
Gerald Casale:
Really?
Doug Shafer:
... kind of, I'm kind of banging through those right now. All their slate and lean and steely, steely and just-
Gerald Casale:
I'll have to try that. I've never had a Greek, a Greek wine that was any good. I've never had any.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, I, I can help you out on that one.
Gerald Casale:
I'm, I'm a big fan of Sicilian whites.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Similar maybe, a little bit.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
I really love the, the, the volcanic nature-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
... of like, from the ones around Etna-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
... are really good.
Doug Shafer:
So-
Gerald Casale:
And there's one they make, it's like, it's like pinot grigio, they, grillo.
Doug Shafer:
Grillo.
Gerald Casale:
It's G-R-I-L-L-O. L-L-O. Grillo. It's so good (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Good. All right.
Gerald Casale:
And it, it's got that quality you're talking about.
Doug Shafer:
That steely slate.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's why I love that stuff.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh (laughs). And Chablis. -
Gerald Casale:
Yeah. Sure.
Doug Shafer:
That's just like, you know.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
If I ever could have expensive, you know, rock or rock band I could make a lot of money. I could go buy land in Chablis (laughs).
Gerald Casale:
You know, all, all wine that's good is good whether somebody likes it or not in the sense that it's made well. It doesn't have flaws, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Gerald Casale:
It's like, that's the first thing, you know.
Doug Shafer:
That's the, yeah.
Gerald Casale:
Uh-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, can't have flaws.
Gerald Casale:
It's like with music, you've got to be in tune basically (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Good point. I never thought about that.
Gerald Casale:
Unless you're out of tune on purpose (laughs). Which-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Gerald Casale:
Which Jimmy Hendrix would do.
Doug Shafer:
Jimmy Hendrix do. So, Gerald for 50 by 50-
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... where do, where do people find your wine. What's the, what's the play? Is there a website they can hit and ...?
Gerald Casale:
Oh sure.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, okay.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah, you can, you can order it direct.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah sure. It's thefiftybyfifty.com. All, all-
Doug Shafer:
Fiftybyfifty.com.
Gerald Casale:
... letters. Thefiftybyfifty.com because some German internet parker had fiftybyfifty numbers.
Doug Shafer:
The numbers.
Gerald Casale:
And he wanted thousands of dollars to let me use it for a website, you know, that's the game they play, but you just-
Doug Shafer:
Didn't you tell him you were Devo.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah (laughs). That, that made the price go up.
Doug Shafer:
Oh no.
Gerald Casale:
He assumed I was rich.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Gerald Casale:
He didn't know Mark Mothersbaugh won't let us make money (laughs). So, uh, um, yeah. Thefiftybyfifty.com all letters. And it's all there.
Doug Shafer:
Super.
Gerald Casale:
I'm about to re- release the '19 rose-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Gerald Casale:
... in about two weeks.
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's a great time of year. Spring time is here. All right, Gerald thanks so much for taking the time.
Gerald Casale:
Well thank you man.
Doug Shafer:
This is a real treat. Really cool.
Gerald Casale:
I mean you're, you're it, you're the master.
Doug Shafer:
Oh man I'm just, I'm just growing grapes and making wine.
Gerald Casale:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Just like everybody else.
Gerald Casale:
30,000 cases or something like that.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, every year, every year.
Gerald Casale:
Nice.
Doug Shafer:
It's like a job. All right man, take care, thanks.
Gerald Casale:
Thank you.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
So here we are everybody. Welcome back to another episode of The Taste. I'm Doug Shafer and we have a special guest today. Um, Robin Lail, a true original longtime Napa Valley native, not too many Napa Valley natives around here. Um, she and I, we've seen each other for years coming in and going. She, at various Napa Valley events. She knew my mom Bett, she was a dear friend of my dad, John Shafer, knows my sister, runs, hangs with my wife Annette. Robin, welcome to The Taste.
Robin Lail:
Thank you very much.
Doug Shafer:
And I-
Robin Lail:
It's great to be here.
Doug Shafer:
It's super to have you in, and I know for sure that you do not know the first time that our paths crossed.
Robin Lail:
I do not.
Doug Shafer:
I'll, I'll tell you why, because-
Robin Lail:
(Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
... it was 1979 and I was, had a summer job at as a tour guide at Robert Mondavi Winery.
Robin Lail:
Oh, that's amazing.
Doug Shafer:
You were working there.
Robin Lail:
Yes, I was.
Doug Shafer:
So we never actually spoke to each other, but I saw you going back and forth of Bob's office and I was out there in the front of the building welcoming guests. It's pretty funny-
Robin Lail:
Making people happy.
Doug Shafer:
Well, trying. We, we had, that was, that was one of the best jobs I've ever had. Um, so that was a summer of '79. And, you know, we tried to do a little research on folks that come in and your story is, is, goes on forever. I mean, back to the 1800s with one of the best known names in that era Gustave Niebaum then we get to one of the greatest winemakers in the valley, your dad, John Daniel. Then your story, working with Mondavi, working with Bill Harlan, starting your own winery. It goes on and on. So this, we could be here all day long.
Robin Lail:
I'll speak very rapidly. (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs). No, but I, I do, I gotta tell you something. We were doing some research and, um, but I do want to read this what we found. This was, uh, an article in the August 14th, 1908 Napa Weekly Journal, the local newspaper and it was about Gustave Niebaum's, uh, passing and his estate. Niebaum's estate, valued in the neighborhood of two and a half million dollars bulk of which is left to, to a widow.
Doug Shafer:
And I quote, "The San Francisco Call on, of Sunday morning says that at the request of the widow, the will of the late Captain Gus- Gustave Niebaum who died in San Francisco last week will not be open until the end of next week. The estate is valued, valued in the neighborhood of two and a half million dollars. It's the understanding of those who enjoyed the confidence of the captain that the bulk of the property is left to Mrs. Niebaum. Although the couple had no children, they took into their home and raised from babyhood a niece and nephew, who had been left orphans by the death of their parents, Mr. and Mrs. Shingleberry Shingleberger.
Doug Shafer:
Captain Niebaum and his wife were greatly attached to the two children and brought them up with the same care and devotion as though they had been their own. The captain was greatly displeased..." This is great. "The captain was greatly displeased with the marriages and family differences followed." Don't you love that?
Robin Lail:
(Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
"The girl, the girl became the wife of John Daniels, John Daniel Sr., Uh, a young businessman and her brother married, and, and her brother married an actress."
Robin Lail:
Shocking.
Doug Shafer:
Again 1908, shocking news. Today it would be fantastic. Um, it's like Prince Harry. Anyway, "... following the fire of 1906, a reconciliation was effected between Mrs. Daniels and Captain Niebaum and her husband came to enjoy his highest, his highest esteem. Young Shingleberger never regained his, (laughs) young Shingleberger, the one who married the actress never regained his, his, his place in the affections of the captain." I love the way they get into the family stuff.
Robin Lail:
(Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
"Uh, the children were the son and daughter of Mr. uh, of Mrs. Niebaum's brother and despite the attitude of the captain she continued in, in her devotion of them. It is believed that she will make ample provision for both." So, this is 1908. So I've got to ask you, you got to tell me about Gustave, Gustave Niebaum.
Robin Lail:
Well, you know, I didn't know him personally. (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Robin Lail:
The, you would need so much face work (laughs), if that were the case.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
Well, Captain Gustave Niebaum, um, was my Great Grand Uncle, and, um, was larger than life.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Robin Lail:
He definitely was. He was just one of those individuals. He was a man who was a sea captain. He was a man who has a life-long love affair with the sea. He was a man who had an affair life-long love affair with Alaska. He was a man who fell in love with wine and started a winery in Napa Valley in 1879 called Inglenook. He was a man who, um, spoke five languages-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Robin Lail:
Fluently and had a working knowledge of two more. He was a man who collected the largest wine library in the world and read every volume in the library, which were written in multiple languages. He didn't need to do that, but he did. He was a man who was the Russian vice counsel to San Francisco. The Counsel was kind of a lazy guy, apparently, and so he was acting, actually acting counsel. He was a man who probably was in the court of Nichols and Alexandra when they were still in power in Russia.
Doug Shafer:
In Russia.
Robin Lail:
He was a man of- of who was reclusive but loved to, um, entertain his friends in a very grand way. He was a man of great excellence. He was a man who followed Louis Pasteur and was very particular about the cleanliness of his winery and did white kit glove inspection tours when he was on property, which was stunning to people. He was a man who tried to find a cure for Phylloxera when it hit the vineyards-
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Robin Lail:
In Napa Valley in the 1880's,late 1880's and ‘90s. Um, he did not just, fold up his hands and assume the lilly position. He went after it avidly, working with all kinds of people from all kinds of areas, including Europe. Um, to try to find a solution, which he was not able to find. He was a great collector. Um, he had beautiful Flemish glass from the 17th century, and, um, collections of- there was a Russian tea set that he has that is extraordinary beautiful that was inlaid with all different colors of enamel. He was a man who, um, wasn't a sharer guy. He didn't like to share. So-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robin Lail:
You know the vintners in Napa Valley, even at that time were sharing a lot of information. Not so- Not so for him. He was a man who built a brand out of nothing and there were no brands at that time and he was a man who started selling his wine on a worldwide basis in the late 1800's. He was spectacular.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Doug Shafer:
How did... So he's a sea captain. He's, he's traveling around the world. How did he find Napa Valley?
Robin Lail:
While he began from very humble origins, by the time he came down to San Francisco, he had a small fortune of $600,000, which he invested in a company called the Alaska Commercial Company. So that company took him all over the world. But in the meantime, he was living in San Francisco-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
... and used to go to visit friends in Napa Valley. During his tenure at the Alaska Commercial Company, he spent a lot of time in the great wine making regions of Europe.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
And developed a second lifelong love affair, and that was with wine.
Doug Shafer:
With wine. And because this is in the late 1800s, right?
Robin Lail:
Well, not so late.
Doug Shafer:
Not so late.
Robin Lail:
So we're in the 1870s.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Robin Lail:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And so, um, so somehow he found his way up to Napa Valley, and-
Robin Lail:
Yes, as a guest and loved it.
Doug Shafer:
As a guest and loved it. And obviously bought, he bought a big beautiful piece of land in Rutherford.
Robin Lail:
Well, it started out with a modest piece of land-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
... which he just added to, and added to until it was 1,830 acres.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. 1,830 acres. Wow.
Robin Lail:
It was a determined individual. (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs). And then, but, um, and so when he, then he built, he built the estate, the Inglenook Winery, correct?
Robin Lail:
He did.
Doug Shafer:
What year was that?
Robin Lail:
Um, the winery was finished in 1883.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, and it's a beautiful building to this day.
Robin Lail:
It is indeed.
Doug Shafer:
And he started making wine. Do you know what kind of wines he was making?
Robin Lail:
All kinds of wines.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
So you know very well Doug, that, um, even after the repeal of Prohibition, and the few wineries that opened and then slowly grew to more and more, more businesses, the, that the vintners were making huge numbers of wines.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
So all kinds of things that you wouldn't expect including Rieslings and Gewurztraminer
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
... and you name it, and they were making it. And so Niebaum was not so different. I don't know if you know that by the time, the first commercial winery was Charles Krug in 1861. And by the late 1880s, there were, and I'm sorry, I can't give you a specific number, between 120 and 200-
Doug Shafer:
Right, it was close to 200, I do know that. Yeah.
Robin Lail:
... making wine here in Napa Valley. And in 1889, 27 wineries from uh, Napa Valley, went to the Paris Exposition and showed their wines and won, um, gold medals and silv- silver medals and Inglenook won in addition to that a certificate of excellence. So there was-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robin Lail:
... there was a lot going on here. The wines that were being made were beautiful. But you know, Inglenook was the first winery, for instance, to develop a brand.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
Because so many wineries at that time were shipping wines to negociants in San Francisco. And negociants were then creating blends from all over California-
Doug Shafer:
All over, right. And then bottle.
Robin Lail:
... and then sending them across the country or around the Cape unrefrigerated, very exciting. (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Robin Lail:
So Niebaum was quite an innovator. You know, he was a man who pioneered double sorting, he pioneered, um, meter by meter planting-
Doug Shafer:
Mmh.
Robin Lail:
... if you go to Opus today, my darling friends at Opus, they will tell you they pioneered meter but not true. No, no, it was Niebaum. He did it.
Doug Shafer:
He did it.
Robin Lail:
And it was of course trying to reproduce what he had seen in Bordeaux, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
... the great producers, so.
Doug Shafer:
Well, this sto- you know, we need to get this story out because everyone thinks, you know, Napa Valley and California is just all happened in the, you know-
Robin Lail:
Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
... recent 60, yes, the last 40 years. It's been the last 180 years. So -
Robin Lail:
It's really amazing. And, you know, my family's been making wine here in the Valley for 140 years.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Robin Lail:
So that's pretty exciting. You know those-
Doug Shafer:
That's pretty cool.
Robin Lail:
... those roots down into the past, give the cachet or the, um, position of wines coming from this area, um, greater depth and meaning I think, you know, because it's not just a Johnny-come-lately kind of thing, "Oh, yeah, so let's, let's go to Napa Valley and make wine." And not only that, in terms of the Napa Valley appellation and its fame today.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
That's built on over, well over 150 years of effort. And, um, it's kind of a sad thing when people come here and, um, have no understanding of that, because they're missing something really special.
Doug Shafer:
That's part of the reason I do this podcast. I've had some f- folks in here who have like yourself, you know, family ties, going back 80, 100 years making wine. And it's great.
Robin Lail:
It is great. It's exciting.
Doug Shafer:
And I, we posted something the other day because it's been 40 years since I went to high school here, you know, in St. Helena and uh, the, my, the photo was out here, right here at the, at the ranch and the background is uh, the mountains of Stag's Leap. It was like oh, and this, you know, I was 17 years old, but I'm looking at the mountains of Stag's Leap and it's like, wow, they still look the same. And I thought a little later, it's like, wow, those things have looked the same for hundreds of years and 150 years of people growing grapes here, making wine.
Robin Lail:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
We have a short time on earth and we come and go and our grapes and wines, they last so many years, but you know, this place and the surrounding mountains and, and topography-
Robin Lail:
And the soul.
Doug Shafer:
And the soul.
Robin Lail:
And the soul, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, just maintain and carry on and it's, it's a little overwhelming sometimes when you think about it. But, but also kind of comforting. It's nice to know, it's a great place.
Robin Lail:
It is.
Doug Shafer:
So Gustave and Suzanne, according to the newspaper had no children. But, uh, there was, her niece and nephew, the Sh- Shinglebergers-
Robin Lail:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
So they took them in, a son and a daughter.
Robin Lail:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And the daughter married, grew up and married John Daniel senior.
Robin Lail:
Correct.
Doug Shafer:
I have that right?
Robin Lail:
No, you're absolutely right.
Doug Shafer:
It was, it was, I had to do some studying here. It was kind of complicated.
Robin Lail:
John Daniel senior married Leah Shingleberger.
Doug Shafer:
Leah Shingleberger, thank you. And then they had a child, a boy named John Daniel, Jr.
Robin Lail:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
Who is your father.
Robin Lail:
Right. And a daughter named Suzanne Daniel.
Doug Shafer:
So your dad was born when? 19...
Robin Lail:
1907.
Doug Shafer:
And he grew up here. So he did he, he grew up at-
Robin Lail:
He did not actually.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, sorry.
Robin Lail:
So, oddly enough, um, history repeated itself. And so Leah Daniel died when my father was seven years old.
Doug Shafer:
Oh wow.
Robin Lail:
She contracted diptheria and it's said that she died of a broken heart.
Doug Shafer:
Hm.
Robin Lail:
Because John Daniel Sr. um, was a bit of a philanderer unfortunately. And, um, Captain Niebaum and Susan Niebaum looked at this situation, came to John Daniel Sr. and said you, sir, are not fit to raise these children.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
We will raise the children. And John Daniel Sr. might have been a philanderer and probably was, however, he wasn't a fool. And so he said, "Well, very well you can do that. But if you do it you must agree to leave all your holdings to, um, the children, John Daniel and Suzanne Daniel."
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Robin Lail:
And they agreed to do so. So, um...
Doug Shafer:
So Gustave and his wife raised-
Robin Lail:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
... raised your father?
Robin Lail:
So they raised my father's mother and they raised my father. So what happened was that dad was raised both in San Francisco and at the ranch.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, got it.
Robin Lail:
So yes, he was here from the time he was a boy but, um, and I have some really killer darling pictures of he and Suzanne, you know, when they were little in the pony card and-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Robin Lail:
... at the ranch.
Doug Shafer:
Fascinating. So he grew up, so okay, as he, so what was his childhood like? He was in a city in San Francisco and up here.
Robin Lail:
So my dad, my dad, um, I found one of his (laughs) this is a good pertinent to nothing. I found one of his, um, diaries-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
... in the attic.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, neat.
Robin Lail:
And it was written at the time he was seven years old and every, every night it's said wrestled with Ned Spalding.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Robin Lail:
So I think he was working a few things out at that time. And um, the thing that's a bit touching is that when my father passed away in 197- 1970, um, I received a letter from Ned Spalding, who I had never laid eyes on-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
... and it killed me and I wrote back to him and said, wrestled with Ned Spalding, yeah, it was a lovely thing.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, wow.
Robin Lail:
So, um, dad went to private schools.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
He went to Potter High, um, and he played a little football while he was at Potter High. And in the summertimes, he worked at the ranch in the vineyards. And, um, so you know, was um, learning by touch and feel-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Robin Lail:
... at the beginning and he had, because of his growing up there, had this great passion for this beautiful property and also for the legacy that he came from.
Doug Shafer:
So that's where, okay, so he grew up in the vineyards in the summer, was he working in the winery too you think? Or just mostly-
Robin Lail:
No, he wasn't working in the winery because it was prohibition.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's right.
Robin Lail:
(Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
I was gonna ask you about that. What happened with Ingle- Inglenook during Prohibition?
Robin Lail:
So, you know, I'm sure quite well, that there were, that everybody closed with the exception-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
... of two producers, one was B- Beringer.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
And one was Beaulieu, now called BV.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
And Inglenook continued to keep their vineyards in pristine condition and sold grapes to, um, Beaulieu.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
So that's what happened during Prohibition of Inglenook. And I think you know also that in 1939, it became apparent that Prohibition was going to come to an end.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
And so several vintners, not many, but several vintners made a 1939 vintage.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. At that point, I think was he, was, was he working at, was he making wine at that point? Your dad?
Robin Lail:
My dad was sent by his father to reopen Inglenook-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
... at the end of Prohibition, so when, um, he, he went there, you know, prohibition just landed, sorry, lasted for 13 years.
Doug Shafer:
Correct.
Robin Lail:
And, um, there was a vintage made that year which was in 1933, excuse me, not 1939-
Doug Shafer:
And he was, and he at that point did he, he was the owner because he inherited it?
Robin Lail:
He was not the owner, Suzanne, Suzanne Niebaum was still living-
Doug Shafer:
Got it, okay.
Robin Lail:
And she died in 1936.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
So which point he became the owner but wasn't the manager, um, until 1939.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
So he was sent there and then immediately became an apprentice.
Robin Lail:
So he, you know, all the time learned the hard way. He was only 26 years old - So Carl Bundschu was the winemaker-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
... when the winery opened and you know, the Bundschus still are going today-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
... which is very exciting. And Carl Bundschu was the prototype of the winemaker. He had-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
Very, very fat cheeks and a giant bulbous nose and some hair and, and there was so much intensity in his face, it was absolutely fabulous. He was just brilliant. And he made beautiful wines, really exciting wines. And I don't know exactly when George Dewar took over-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
... for Carl Bundschu. I think it was probably in the late, um, 30s. And then George Dewar was the winemaker until the winery was sold. And then for some time after that, and what's really tragic is that George Dewar eventually had a nervous breakdown and burned all his wine making notes.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, oh.
Robin Lail:
So no one knows how these wines from Inglenook which have such longevity-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
Just, um-
Doug Shafer:
They're gorgeous wines.
Robin Lail:
I just, um, just poured a 1959 Cabernet Sauvignon the other night that was spectacular. Just beautiful.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's sad story.
Robin Lail:
Sad story. Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. But, but beautiful wines. And so your dad, but so your dad owned I- Inglenook and ran it for, for all those years.
Robin Lail:
He did. He did. For 30 years.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. And then and at some point he married and you and your sister came along, and you grew up, where'd you grow up?
Robin Lail:
Um, Inglenook.
Doug Shafer:
Inglenook.
Robin Lail:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Right there.
Robin Lail:
My sister started out in San Francisco, but um, Inglenook in, in the interim periods.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
And I was born and at Inglenook from three days after I was born, so ...
Doug Shafer:
Wow, what was that like?
Robin Lail:
It was magical. It was magical. It was so magical, so, so beautiful and so rural, and so, I, I can't even begin. It was like Eden.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
And to be honest with you as a child, perhaps I didn't appreciate it to the same level I can remember when we used to travel. Mother and dad would come home and wax eloquently about, "Oh, let's do a John, it's so beautiful. Isn't it so beautiful?" And I would look at them and think to myself, "Well, you know, it's yes, it's very attractive, but there's no mountains and there's no oceans. So how beautiful is it?" And of course as you begin to age and grow older in this place, the beauty just absolutely is mesmerizing.
Doug Shafer:
It is.
Robin Lail:
It's just breathtaking. So, but it was a happy place to grow up. I had a pony and then I had a horse-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
... and, um, a wonderful dog. It was a little isolated honestly-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
... um, because it seemed like for my mother it was a very long way, (laughs) for play dates and so forth.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
So, it was a place of the heart. And it was days in the mountain and on the mountain and days finding secret places and, getting the eggs from the chicken coop and raising a calf for 4-H and all those wonderful kind of rural things and just investigating every part of that property. And when I was quite young my mother left for, let's see, she left when I was around three-
Doug Shafer:
Mmh.
Robin Lail:
... and divorced my dad and remarried. And then divorced that man and came back and remarried my dad and um, when I was seven. And the period she was gone, we used, um, to have picnics on the weekends.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Robin Lail:
We had a Chinese cook named Charlie who was such a pal. And um, Charlie made fabulous lunches, these really thinly sliced French bread sandwiches with, with roast beef and ham-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robin Lail:
... and tuna and peanut butter and jelly, huge platters of them. So we'd have these picnics on Novell Creek. And, um, which was, there was a stand of redwoods. And it was above a dam that we had on the property.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
And it was, that was magical.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
And, you know, I can remember those are just kind of snippets that come to you from your childhood. I can remember these hampers full of, of these wonderful, yummy foods. And then, um, wine obviously for the grown ups and, um, I can remember that after the lunch was over, the grown ups would spread these big blankets and they would lie down and be chatting and then kind of have a little snooze (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Take a little snooze (laughs). We call that a siesta.
Robin Lail:
But it was, I don't know how to really encapsulate it well.
Doug Shafer:
You just did, as beautiful.
Robin Lail:
And you know, just the other thing, Doug, is that I was playing in the vineyards. So that was marvelous.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robin Lail:
I mean, the vineyards for me were magical throughout the season. So, um, wonderful in the winter, and when the mustard would starting to grow, and then just become this wonderful carpet in the, in the early spring, and I can remember hiding in the mustard-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Robin Lail:
... because it was so tall and looking up at the clouds and making, making stories and then you know, spring would come along, and then the magic of the vine starting to bud and then bloom, and that, I just loved it. And we had, I had a tree house that was over, branched over the vineyard-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
... in one place and it, there was an Indian mound, burial mound, in that part of the vineyard. And so when they would till then in the spring, I would go out and look at, you know, for arrowheads and so forth. Then you know then the grapes would start growing. And then they would turn color-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robin Lail:
... and then I would try to eat them and they were so nasty, (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Robin Lail:
Teeny and filled with seeds and so sharp.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, unripe grapes are tough.
Robin Lail:
(Laughs). So, um, but then, and then the great crescendo, which was harvest and the wonderful excitement of these grapes being harvested and taken to the winery, and then this fabulous perfume-
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Robin Lail:
... that would come from the winery, it just-
Doug Shafer:
Because you lived right, you lived right there, right?
Robin Lail:
Well, we lived, we lived right behind it. Yes. And so, that was ecstasy. It really was. And the, the vines going to sleep. It was a whole show every year.
Doug Shafer:
The whole year.
Robin Lail:
It was this fabulous scene.
Doug Shafer:
All the seasons.
Robin Lail:
Yeah. So it was wonderful. I loved it.
Doug Shafer:
Thank you for that. That was just beautiful. ... that's great. So the folks had some wine, were you, did, uh, did dad ever give you a little, little glass of wine or water and wine, anything like that?
Robin Lail:
So, no.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
There was wine on the table every night. When my mother came home... Honestly, Doug, I think perhaps she felt a bit guilty ... for her excursion. And, so she announced pretty much upon arrival that she was going to raise my sister and I in the Mormon Church.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
It's a fine religion, um, which does not embrace wine in any way. And so, my father, from the time I was old enough to comprehend what he was saying to me used to say, "I see myself as the caretaker of this legacy, of this heritage, of this land, and it will all be yours one day." And it's a dangerous thing to say to a child because things happen, things happen, they can happen. Maybe it rolls out as planned and everyone-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Robin Lail:
... lives happily ever after. Um, in this instance, my mother happened and that was the end. And so wine on the table we were allowed to smell it, but not to taste it. I remember the first time I ever went, and we, and we did what - trash-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robin Lail:
... talk about something sad, so we never talked about the wine business-
Doug Shafer:
Mmh.
Robin Lail:
... and my dad was such an amazing contributor to the business and s- involved up to his armpits, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Oh he was, he was-
Robin Lail:
... heart and soul.
Doug Shafer:
He was one of the key guys.
Robin Lail:
Well, there were only what? 10 wineries.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robin Lail:
Nine, sorry, nine wineries that reopened-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robin Lail:
... after prohibition out of this 200 odd that were extent before the turn of the century. So he, you, you know, was Robert Mondavi's mentor-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
... and those two guys shared the vision that Napa Valley could make wine second to none in the world. And as we know today, so well, Robert Mondavi just continued to pursue that and did so with great excellence and great effectiveness, and was so important in the building of the, of the magic of the Napa Valley appellation worldwide.
Doug Shafer:
Yes, he was. But your dad was his mentor.
Robin Lail:
He was his mentor. So no, no tasting wine.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robin Lail:
And the first tasting I ever went to with my dad, I was at Stanford. And, um, my dad had gone to Stanford and my sister as well.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
And so he came down and picked me up and I said dad, what do I do if the wine just tastes awful? He said, "This is what you do." He said, "You look at the wine, you hold the glass up, you smell the wine, then you taste it. And then you look into the eyes of the person standing around the, across the table, and you pause for a moment, and then you say, 'This wine is really interesting'." (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs). It worked, it worked then and it works now.
Robin Lail:
It works now, and I could, I must tell you that when people tell me my wine is interesting, I tend to become inflamed. (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs). That's pretty funny. So you're at Stanford so, well, you know, you're out of the house, Stanford were you drinking beer, drinking wine?
Robin Lail:
Yes sir, yes sir.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, good. That's good to know.
Robin Lail:
I drank beer. And I drank a lot of gin actually, when I was in college. I don't touch a drop of it, (laughs) today.
Doug Shafer:
Gin, yeah, gin, gin is not good.
Robin Lail:
No, no, it's very bad. (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
You and I have the same genetic make up on that one, (laughs). So Stanford, um, and, uh, anything fun in college? Sports, major activities, just-
Robin Lail:
Oh, I played tennis for Stanford-
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Robin Lail:
... and, um, and actually, I had this professor at Stanford who used to say, his name was Watkins, and he used to say in his lectures without fail every single day that you were in his class, "You people," that was all, all of us students on the other side, "You people don't get it. You have no idea the value of what you're, what you're in right now. You, you won't get it for years." And we all used to look at him and think of course we get it. Well, um, when I graduated or I was meant to graduate, it was the week after grades were coming out and I got a call from a professor of a graduate seminar that I had taken. And he said, "Miss Daniel," he was Yugoslavian, "Miss Daniel, I would like to take you to lunch at the Faculty Club."
Doug Shafer:
Hm.
Robin Lail:
I had not been a stu- I had been more of a, let's say, socially active and I don't mean ridiculously but I sat on a couple of committees. And I was not, um, comfortable in the company of professors. I did not seek their company. Um, I studied hard and did well, but you know. So this seminar, though, was a disaster, because the, the professor had escaped from Yugoslavia during a revolution, the revolution of the time. And I felt so terrible for him that when I would go to see him during his office hours, I would cry. And so now he's called and invited me to lunch and I think that's it, I flunked, I flunked the seminar and I'm not going to graduate.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
So we go to lunch and it goes on and on and on, and I am tongue tied, not good at making small talk at the time. And so he holds conversation and finally dessert comes and he said, "You know, Mrs. Daniel, um, during the course of the seminar, I thought you were hopeless."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Robin Lail:
He said, "But Miss Daniel, the paper you wrote was brilliant. And I am going to put it in the Hoover Institute."
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Robin Lail:
"And Daniel, I strongly urge you to continue your education, go to graduate school, get a PhD because the things that you write will be of great value." And Professor Walkins was so correct. I was so dumbfounded. Dumbfounded and, you know, I already had the plans of what I was going to do so basically, it was too late. It was too late in that particular genre. And yes, I yes, I did miss it. Yes, I did. Dang it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robin Lail:
So you know, we all have these, maybe not many, but these paths not taken.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
Um, and another one for me was that very summer I had, um, my father's distributor had gotten me a job working as American concierge in ILLUM's department store in, um, Copenhagen. And I didn't take the job. And you know, the those kinds of jobs were not available at the time, you just couldn't go do things like that. So it was really extraordinary opportunity. And my beau had decided to stay in San Francisco and I stayed home to see my beau. And so you know, those, those kinds of paths, every once in a while, not on a daily basis, thank goodness, but every once in a while, they pop into your mind and, and there is a moment of saying, "I wonder what would have happened?"
Doug Shafer:
Oh, sure. We all have that.
Robin Lail:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
We all have that but you have to look at the reality and the path you did take.
Robin Lail:
Yes. Hubba hubba. (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
And, and find the joyous moments and there's a lot.
Robin Lail:
Yes, that's absolutely true.
Doug Shafer:
But I'm with you, it's kind of fun to wonder, wonder sometimes.
Robin Lail:
Well, you have no idea so it doesn't last long.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, plus you're going to make this beautiful dream where the reality goes, maybe that wouldn't have happened at all.
Robin Lail:
(Laughs). That's exactly right.
Doug Shafer:
So, so you're staying in, you graduate. You're staying in San Francisco with your guy. Was that, was that John?
Robin Lail:
No.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, no. Okay, we'll get to John later. But, um, you mentioned earlier, some things don't always happen the way they're promised. And in '64, your dad sold Inglenook.
Robin Lail:
Yes, he did.
Doug Shafer:
That must... Was what was that like?
Robin Lail:
So I was working, um, at the Bank of America-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Robin Lail:
... at the time, and I remember getting the call. And I remember the sense of death that hit me that was so overpowering. The death of this legacy, which even then was unique. I mean, it was something-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Robin Lail:
... quite special. For the business I think, not just not just Robin you know, no, but for a much bigger circle than that. And so I was devastated and you know Doug I'm writing a, uh, or I shou- glacially writing a book.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, great. Good.
Robin Lail:
And, um, which is, really it's a memoir and it's such an interesting experience. I mean, you, you have played in this field very successful yourself with your book about your dad and, uh, but I wonder if you, during that period of time that you were writing, had epiphanies about things that had happened during the course of, of your growing up in your life, and I certainly have had them in this instance. And one of these epiphanies was not very pretty, and it was, dad, you know, why didn't you just go to mother and say, "Look, Betty, this is not an appropriate decision for you, as to the future of these girls, and why don't we ask them if they would be interested in carrying on here." You know, maybe not drinking. I mean, you know, there could have been a dozen ways to put it together, but it never happened.
Doug Shafer:
Hm.
Robin Lail:
And it was just sold. And another person that was quite devastated when he found out was Bob Mondavi. And that was before Robert Mondavi got built.
Doug Shafer:
So he was still at Charles Krug?
Robin Lail:
No, he was I think he had been ousted by that point in time.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, so. Oh wow.
Robin Lail:
And he's, he was so devastated. And because he and dad we're close and on the same page all the time in the business and, um, he said, "If only if only he had approached me I would have, I would have found a way to buy the winery." And he would have because that's who he was, you know? He started Robert Mondavi with, uh, two $25,000 loans from friends, you know, and then going to the bank and saying, "Look, I have all this backing and I want you to back me even more." And they did.
Doug Shafer:
I never knew that story.
Robin Lail:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So you're devastated. Um, and you're living in the city. What, what was it like for Inglenook from where you stood? Did the quality suffer greatly? It was, it was bought by United Vintners, correct?
Robin Lail:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
Initial purchase.
Robin Lail:
So the United Vintners was a cooperative and then as time went on, it was purchased by the parent company, Heublein.
Doug Shafer:
Heublein bought it, okay.
Robin Lail:
And, um, you know, it was basically over. And so there was, I just didn't follow it that closely. And for my dad, it was a classic situation where he had been, um, they had said, of course, we want you to stay on for a period of three years. And it just got ugly so fast, you know, that things were being done without his, um, without his involvement in any way. And it affected, you know, his, his position. And so that fell apart very quickly. It was a very heartbreaking situation. And then, I don't know if you recall this, I'm sure you will want to mention it. But, um, when the whole thrust for the Ag Preserve started-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
... um, it came on quite suddenly, the Board of Supervisors probably had been working on it for months but there was not brought awareness of it in the community. And so it was launched and my dad said, "Well, you know, so I see this is a land reform," and he had been a great champion of, of the little growers for years and years and had been active in working with them, um, in standing up for them against the last minute purchases of Gallo coming in, you know, and saying, "Okay, we'll buy them for-"
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
"... not so much." So, very fine company, by the way, obviously, but, um... so he, so he fought it. He fought it diligently. He had, my dad was a real record keeper and there were no computers obviously at that time. And I know that he had an entire four drawer cabinet filled with correspondence and efforts to try and right this, right the cart.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Robin Lail:
And you know, today and long ago, I had a different opinion and know that the Ag Preserve is of in- inestimable importance to us here.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robin Lail:
Then and now.
Doug Shafer:
But at the time it was very controversial.
Robin Lail:
It was.
Doug Shafer:
And both, and both sides had valid points. I mean, it was.
Robin Lail:
True, however, um, a bad thing happened. And so when I see controversies come up today, Doug between, you know, groups that have been passionate feelings and other groups that oppose those feelings, I feel very concerned. And I feel concerned because what happened to my dad was horrendous. And, um, people stopped talking to him, his friends stopped communicating with him, and he was asked to resign from the Napa Valley Vintners.
Doug Shafer:
Wow, I didn't know that.
Robin Lail:
Heartbreaking. And so heartbreaking that indeed, you know, in 1970, he committed suicide.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
He had a nervous breakdown. And that was it. So, and the funny part about that, if there is a funny part about that, is that when I was a young woman, um, I was not allowed to see, date anyone who had a history of suicide in their family because my father felt it was a gen- (laughs), a genetic issue.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, wow.
Robin Lail:
So, (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
And you're and you're what and you were like, 30.
Robin Lail:
I was 30.
Doug Shafer:
30.
Robin Lail:
Yup. And so green. Honestly, so green.
Doug Shafer:
You're 30 and you're green and you're living in San Francisco.
Robin Lail:
Yeah. Well, not for long.
Doug Shafer:
This, this was devastating.
Robin Lail:
Living in Mill Valley.
Doug Shafer:
How did you, uh, how did you pull yourself together? How'd you do that?
Robin Lail:
Well, bad things happened. Doug there were a lot of bad things that happened and my dad changed his will the day before he died. Again, guilt I think.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Robin Lail:
He knew he was going to do it and put me, and I had been working with, with him for a year. I'd been commuting up to the ranch and he was now training me to be his boy.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay.
Robin Lail:
His boy that would take over and save everything and the constant comment was, "Save everything."
Doug Shafer:
'Cause he still had land.
Robin Lail:
Oh, a lot of land.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay. That's, 'cause [crosstalk 00:44:36].
Robin Lail:
He sold the front, the front part of the winery and 90 acres so there was-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
... still a lot of land and Napanook. And the property where Opus is today and, and, and, and. So there was-
Robin Lail:
And he effectively tied my hands in a bow knot when he, when he rewrote his will, and so there was a lot of selling and a lot of, um, just stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robin Lail:
So to be honest with you, I had a very bitter, very bitter two years. And a real battle, internal battle with my mother. And my mother was a very strong woman and she clearly had some issues, but nonetheless, you know that, it was a very, very difficult time. And I must say, I didn't do very well. I didn't. I tried hard-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Robin Lail:
...but I just didn't do very well. And so... Then at some point, you sit up in your bed and you say, "Wait a minute, okay, who are you harming with this kind of bitterness?" You know, it's just one person, hello, it's me. And so I just stopped. I just stopped being bitter and I thought, "Okay, here we are. Let's go on." And I love so much that quote from Henry Ford, which, which is attributed to Henry Ford, but if you go after it, it may be who knows, someone else. And it is, "Whether you think you can or you can't. You're right." And so, um, things, things happened and it was bumpy.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Robin Lail:
It was bumpy and I was hired, we moved back to Napa Valley in 1972. John went to work for Oakville vineyards.
Doug Shafer:
John, John, your husband?
Robin Lail:
John, my husband. Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Great guy.
Robin Lail:
From, um, 1966. And now we're in 1972 and have two little children. Erin and Shannon. And John goes to work for the people who have, my mother has sold, (laughs), sold my ranch my ranch, you know, in my little heart.
Doug Shafer:
Sure, where you grew up.
Robin Lail:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
The people that bought it, hired John.
Robin Lail:
John as a vice president of marketing and they had 400 limited partners-
Doug Shafer:
Oh my.
Robin Lail:
... and Oakville Vineyards and so I became the person who was giving guided tours through my home.
Doug Shafer:
Through the home you grew, the home you grew up in.
Robin Lail:
My home.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, no.
Robin Lail:
And when the phone would ring, I would think I've got to answer the phone, excuse me, me I have to- No. Not my phone.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs). Not your phone.
Robin Lail:
So you know, that was kind of part of the bumpy part. And I went to work, I was hired by the board of directors for a brand new volunteer center here in Napa County and I became the executive director of the board of directors.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
I mean, excuse me, other of the Volunteer Center.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
And I started with a one time, um, one year $19,000 grant. (Laughs). So that was quite an experience. And, in 1977, I had built a core of 10,000 volunteers and we were working with 250 private and public NGOs. Well, private NGOs and public agencies and, um, I was having chest pains. And about that time Robert Gerald Mondavi came to see me come, said in to have lunch. And then he said, "I'd like you to come to work for me as my secretary." And I said-
Doug Shafer:
This is Robert Mondavi.
Robin Lail:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
... called you up.
Robin Lail:
So-
Doug Shafer:
You had known for your whole life basically.
Robin Lail:
Since I was four.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
And I said, "Well, Bob, thank you so much, but I can't do that. I am, I am an executive." And he said, "What are you talking about?" and I said, "I'm the executive director of the Volunteer Center." And he said, "Well, that's just lovely." So I went right to work for Robert Gerald Mondavi, who became Mr. Mondavi overnight.
Doug Shafer:
No, you were, 'cause I remember when I was working there in '79. You started in '77. Right?
Robin Lail:
Yes, exactly.
Doug Shafer:
No, you walked by 'cause I was just there for a couple months in the summer but the full time tour guys were like, "Oh, there goes Robin. She's like, you know, she's she's like Robert's, right hand, in other words. She knows she knows everything." She’s the one.
Robin Lail:
So it was this, an epiphany number two. I didn't realize until just a year ago that I really think what happened was that Robert Mondavi said, "Look, what's this? What's this person? Daughter of John Daniel doing? She's working as the Volunteer Center. She needs to go back into the wine business. She needs to pick up the pieces and carry on." I'm sure that was the driving force and because he didn't need Robin Lail, who was just obstreperous and full of fun and all that kind of thing, working as his secretary, but that's exactly what happened. I went to work there and it was a training period. Five years of training.
Doug Shafer:
I like that.
Robin Lail:
And it was fabulous. So yes, I was the secretary. Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, but that's-
Robin Lail:
We went to lunch, you know? We would go to lunch and he would order five bottles of wine for the two of us. And then he would look at me and say, I want you to tell me what you find in each of these wines. One of them was al- always a Robert Mondavi. And Margarit taught me early on that you always say, "But your wine is the most-" (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Robin Lail:
"Your wine is the most spectacular." So by the influence of both Bob and Margarit, you know, I got, I got the opportunity to, to start, to found the first Auction Napa Valley.
Doug Shafer:
Right, I wanted to talk to you about that, but first, those of you don't know Auction Napa Valley is, used to call it the Napa Valley Auction House at Napa Valley. And it, uh, was started in 1981. And Robin was going to tell us what happened because she organized it but it's been going over, this will be the 40th year and they've raised over $190 million for charity in this valley. So what's the story behind the auction? How did that happen?
Robin Lail:
The story behind the auction is, is pretty interesting actually, Robert Mondavi had been recruited by the St. Helena Hospital to do a capital campaign of $7 million. And I know you can't possibly know, but at that time, there were not very many vintners still in the valley. And $7 million was a lot of money, really a lot of money. And so many of the vintners that were extent at the time, you know, were running pretty close to the...
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
Close to the hip.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
So this was not an easy deal. And so we put together a list of, as you always do in a capital campaign, a list of the potential primary large donors, and one of them was a woman named Pat Montandon who was quite a figure in San Francisco socially and was married to Al Wilsey. And, um, so we invited her to lunch. And that was not really me, but it was Robert Mondavi and Margarit and I was at the luncheon table, the secretary, to take mental notes. So Pat came to lunch and as fate would have it, she had given a very large party the previous year. And at their, at their home, which was a beautiful home on the Rutherford crossroad. And a lot of people had become very annoyed because they were not invited to this party and there was a big splash in the newspapers about it, and it was not sort of something that was hidden in any way.
Doug Shafer:
That's funny.
Robin Lail:
So she wanted to give another party but she already had this part, you know this problem because she was not everybody's favorite right at that moment. So she arrived at lunch with an agenda and we certainly had an agenda and her agenda was, she said, "What I'd like to do is host an auction for the Napa Valley vintners," and Margarit Mondavi said, "Oh my goodness, it could be like the Hospice Du Rhone and the Hospice Du Rhone, as you know so well, Doug, is the only extent wine auction which had been going on I believe since 1700 in Burgundy.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
There were no wine auctions except the Hospice Du Rhone, so Burgundy France. Margarit just pegged it right away, she said and Robert, Mr. Mondavi at the time, said, "Robin, this is the exact kind of, um, thing that your father and I looked for, have looked for for so many years. That really could be an event that could promote the Napa Valley appellation and do good at the same time." And that was the beginning.
Doug Shafer:
And he said, "And it's all yours," right? (Laughs).
Robin Lail:
So, but no, absolutely no, he certainly did not. So now I was going to be at the Wilsey's. So we had a meeting at the Wilsey's and there was a very, I went to the meeting and there was a very large day bed in this kitchen area, which is where all the vintners came and we had this meeting with Pat Montandon. And the meeting was so intense and I got so nervous and skirts were very short at the time very, very short. And I scoochied way back up against the back of this day bed and there was a lot of day bed in front of me. And at some point in time, I had to get off it. (Laughs). And it was no, no mean feat to keep the dress down. At any rate. So, um, time went on the vintners agreed to do auction, they were very cautious about the idea. And, um, it became apparent that it just really wasn't going to work out too well to have it at a private home.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
And so we moved to the next square and the next square became Meadowood. So what happened was that Bob and Margarit were traveling a great deal at the time. And this was in 1979-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
... that we decided we were going to do this and the launch date was 1981. And so, time went on, time went on, I started to get really concerned that nothing was being done, you know? And so I finally said, "Would you mind if I get started here?" And so no, they wouldn't mind. And so I put together a committee of people that was so remarkable and the participants on this committee primarily were wives of vintners. Brilliant women, um, or growers. So Martha May and Laila Yeager and Margarit Mondavi, not surprisingly, and Priscilla Upton and, and, and, and... people who were, these women who had done all the, there were no, there were no restaurants to speak of. There was Grapevine Inn, so these women were the great entertainers, you know, for their husbands and building their businesses.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
And they were fabulous. Oh, so bright and so marvelous. And, and then in addition to this fabulous group of women, there was Bill Harlan and Peter Palmisano and Herb Schmidt.
Robin Lail:
And so it, that was basically our working group and we we built this auction from scratch, and it was a very exciting process. In 1980, um, Bill Harlan and John and I, and Bill's, uh, date went to Bordeaux and but the purpose of the trip was really to go to Burgundy to go to the Hospices de Beaune to see what was going on. So from the beginning, the idea behind auction Napa Valley was, um, threefold, it was to produce monies to help, the, the first auctions were just in support of medical. So it was just the two hospitals-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
... the Queen of the Valley and the St. Helena Hospital and then Clinic Olé and now it's a completely different thrust, which is children's health care and wellness and education. The purpose of the auction originally was to raise money for philanthropy within the community, um, to integrate the community with the vintners. To be, to bring us together with the people of the valley is very, very important. And to do so in a really positive way. And, um, the last and not least, was to promote Napa Valley.
Doug Shafer:
Sure. It's, um, it's just been a big win.
Robin Lail:
It's been a big win.
Doug Shafer:
On all those counts. And, and thank you very much for getting it going. 'Cause, I love, I love Mr. Mondavi, but boy, he's tough to, was tough to tie down those days. So someone had to get the-
Robin Lail:
Well, we had, we had a committee. I should not miss the committee, and the chairman of the committee was Louie Martini ... Jr. And, uh, no, Louis, which is it? Louis L? Uh, there's an initial there. It was the younger Louis Martini-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Robin Lail:
... and Chuck Carpy.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, great guys.
Robin Lail:
So they, they were great too.
Doug Shafer:
So after a few years with Mondavi you, you kind of continue to get back into the wine business in a big way. And you met a guy named Christian Moueix. Tell me about that. Who's that guy?
Robin Lail:
So that introduction was made by Bob Mondavi.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
And, um, Christian Moueix is a fascinating person. We first met in December of 1981. And then we co-founded Dominus in May of 1982, with my sister, Marky, and it was a venture that lasted until 1995. It was a venture that had, for me, just Robin by myself in my little room. I thought it was the opportunity to start again.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robin Lail:
To rekindle this legacy, but to bring it into the 21st century in a brand new way. You know, and for Christian the same you know, coming from, from Saint-Emilion I'm sorry, from Pomerol and Saint-Emilion and his amazing reputation there. And the fabulous wine-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Robin Lail:
... you know, obviously, he was champion of Petrus the time and, and also the director. So I just thought, and 14 other chateau by the way-
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Robin Lail:
... but, um, I just thought that this could be a merger that would create a brand new excitement, um, with gre- with great legacies on both sides. And unfortunately, that was, I believe, not Christian's view I think that perhaps he, from the outset was interested in, um, a vineyard, you know, that he, he had looked before and couldn't find anything and so, um, he was interested in perhaps taking over the vineyard. So it was a very, very interesting, um, venture. I learned a great deal, Doug. I am very, uh, I admire Christian's capabilities enormously and really value the interactions that I had at the time and, um, the opportunity. And, um, you know, basically, when I emerged from that, from that joint venture, um, or partnership I came - came out with, um, two and a half acres of Merlot across the street from- from Napanook.
Doug Shafer:
From Napanook. In Yountville. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
And, um, and, um, a knowledge that if I was ever going to start over, it had to be now with the two and a half acres of Merlot-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
That was 1995 and I was 55 years old. And what's interesting about that age at that time is-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Robin Lail:
Is that, uh, that when my dad sold Ingelnook he was 55 years old. So...
Doug Shafer:
Oh, really?
Robin Lail:
So, yes.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. And that's when you started, you started that was, that's when Lail Vineyard started?
Robin Lail:
That's when Lail Vineyard started, yes.
Doug Shafer:
Look, I'm gonna jump back on you. Before that, you had a little gig with Mr. Harland?
Robin Lail:
I did.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Oh tell me about that one.
Robin Lail:
So that, that was um, much more interactive, if you would say.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Robin Lail:
Um, and uh, it's such an education.
Doug Shafer:
Of course.
Robin Lail:
So uh, Bill is such an important figure in my life.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Robin Lail:
Uh, in terms of, probably call it an apprenticeship I suppose.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
I mean, it was never presented that way, but I started out as his secretary. I went to work, I went to work for Bill in um, 1982.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
In San Francisco.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay.
Robin Lail:
And then uh, we moved back to Meadowood in 1985. But we started um, Lail Vineyards. Uh, sorry, excuse me. I have a one track mind. (laughter) Lail, Lail, Lail. Uh, we started Merryvale Vineyards in um, 1983. And when I say we, that partnership was composed of John and Robin, um, Bill Harlan and his partners at Pacific Union, Peter Stocker and John Montgomery.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
But in terms of activity, basically um, Bill and I were kind of on the, on the-
Doug Shafer:
Operations, yeah.
Robin Lail:
Operation line. And so, what did I learn from Bill? I learned, what did I learn from Robert Mondavi? So much. In both cases, so much. And Bill was not an easy man to work for. Um, he was a man who was interested in what was wrong versus what was right. My, my favorite story is his story of Bill playing tennis with our, tennis pro at Meadowood, Doug King. And um,
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Robin Lail:
Doug saying, "Oh, way to hit the ball Bill. Oh, way to hit through that ball. Oh, that looks really good."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Robin Lail:
And Bill puts down his tennis racket and approaches the net. And uh, Doug just (laughs) what's gonna happen now and approaches the net.
Robin Lail:
And Bill leans forward and says to him, "You know Doug, I'm not interested in what I'm doing right, I'm interested in what I'm doing wrong." And so I think that that was, at that time, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robin Lail:
And that was a, we had a long go together, um, kind of, a driving force.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robin Lail:
It was always the pursuit of excellence.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
It was the pursuit of the highest degree of excellence, not just kinda good old, good old, no.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robin Lail:
It had to be top of the heap, it had to be beyond, the next level, the next level. So the drive for excellence really suited me.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Robin Lail:
The challenge suited me. But it was, it was, it was hard. But I'm so grateful.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Robin Lail:
So, I think that Bill, well I know BIll's responsible for me being where I am today.
Doug Shafer:
Well look at the education you've had. You know, and then, and then finally you get to put all together.
Robin Lail:
Well -
Doug Shafer:
In 1995 you started your own thing.
Robin Lail:
It wouldn't have happened because, mind you, I went to work for a miss, his secretary.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
But in 1985, I became managing director of Meadowood because there was none right at the time and we were working at Meadowood to go to the next level, big jump.
Doug Shafer:
That's right, I remember that.
Robin Lail:
To be, to be an international -
Doug Shafer:
Destination, resort. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
Destination of the highest order.
Doug Shafer:
I remember those years when they re-did everything, yeah.
Robin Lail:
So, you know, (Laughs), and then of course, Merryvale was still going and then he, he bought Sunny St. Helena winery.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
With me saying, "Don't do it, don't do it, don't do it." (Laughs) but he did it, and then I became president of Merryvale, and um, there's a lot going on. And none of that would have happened if he hadn't been propelling me to try and help me be all I could be. So he is a very interesting man, he's a man who plays the long game. He's a man who's very interested in what other people's opinions are, even if he has a very clear opinion himself, which has been under development for a long period of time. And um, he listens and then evaluates and moves forward.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
But he's very patient. He's very patient, if you look at the Napa Valley Reserve, that was a project that probably took oh, at least 10 years, to put into being so, I love that. I love um, his attention to detail. He's an outstanding editor. Outstanding negotiator, and an outstanding builder of character.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Robin Lail:
You know? That, you cannot survive in that kind of organization without some temerity and some ambition and some desire and you know, things that carry you over, the little bumps along the way. He is a very valuable person in my life, I'm very grateful of my association. So.
Doug Shafer:
Fantastic, so you're working with him for what, 10-12 years? Something like that.
Robin Lail:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
And then, finally, we get to Lail Vineyards.
Robin Lail:
Finally, yes. (Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
The origin. Tell me about Lail Vineyards, it's 1995.
Robin Lail:
No, you know,
Doug Shafer:
Is that it?
Robin Lail:
You know, Doug, I was terrified from starting over, I think we've gone way over 10 minute?
Doug Shafer:
No it's fine, we got, we got all day. We can go all week. (Laughs)
Robin Lail:
(Laughs). So um, I had always been afraid of trying to start over.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
You know, I did not have 17, 1800 acres of land, I did not have a winery rebuilt in 1883, I did not have a lovely Victorian mansion with four acres of garden.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
I had no there, there.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
And by the way, um, when I started, I had two and a half acres of grapes. And no capital. But -
Doug Shafer:
That's scary.
Robin Lail:
Oh it's very scary.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Robin Lail:
(Laughs) It's lunatic is what it is. But it was very apparent to me that if I didn't try, you know, it's just all going to go away.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
For sure. And so, we started with nothing. It's been a very interesting path. Uh, for a long time, can you imagine? For a long time, I also started pretty simultaneously at a company called Connections.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
And Connections, uh, was in the business of entertaining influencers and changers, throughout the country.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Robin Lail:
People, people who would stand behind us, should prohibition, the prohibitionist be effective and coming back again. People that would come to um, bolster the wine business. And I started Connections because I wanted to very much to make a mark, some kind of a mark for the vintners to replicate what my dad had done. And you know what I never figured out, Doug, was at the time I started doing that, there are a lot of vintners.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Robin Lail:
There were a lot. There were not nine vintners. There were a whole lot. Because there had been this huge uptick. In the 80's & 90's which continues today.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
But, so, to be of some importance was not going to be easy. So, this, this company was to arrange extraordinary visits to Napa valley for people in positions of power and influence. And um, I spent 10 years doing that, and so that basically, and then there was a woman, I don't know if you ever crossed paths with her, she's a marvelous woman named Katie Span.
Doug Shafer:
No, I don't know her.
Robin Lail:
And Katie Span was a powerhouse who was very successful in business and um, a very good friend of mine. And so, now Lail Vineyards is creeping along simultaneously to this other business that is taking absolutely every moment of my time.
Doug Shafer:
Oh is it, that's, that's great.
Robin Lail:
Oh yes, right out of the starting gate. And um, which just, and she finally said to me, "Robin, what are you doing? This is ridiculous. Your heritage lies here in Lail Vineyards, and you're spending all of like your time over here and not developing your Lail Vineyards. What are you doing?" And so, point was well taken, you know? And I said, "Ah." So.
Doug Shafer:
I don't know if I agree. Where's your passion? Or is it, or, is it?
Robin Lail:
It was a passion for both.
Doug Shafer:
Exactly, what's wrong with having two passions?
Robin Lail:
So in the world of- Cause I love people.
Doug Shafer:
There you go, I mean.
Robin Lail:
Okay, oh well no you can have two passions. But if the pas-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, you can have more than two.
Robin Lail:
Okay, okay.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Robin Lail:
Can I have three?
Doug Shafer:
You can have three.
Robin Lail:
I have to go now.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Robin Lail:
(Laughs) uh so.
Doug Shafer:
Well I'm glad, I'm glad you've got them both. But tell me about the wines, tell me what, what kind of wine is Lail making these days.
Robin Lail:
Lail is making six wines.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
We're making um, one two three, one two three four, Cabernet Sauvignons, and two Sauvignon Blanc.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. And you've got your original vineyard, Napanook, and you bought another Vineyard up on Howell mountain?
Robin Lail:
Um, we have our original vineyard, Totem, which is across the street from Napanook, it was originally a part of Napanook. But much more interestingly, frankly um, Doug, when um, George Yount planted the first Vineyard in 1839 in Napa Valley, um, Totem, the little two and a half acre property, um, sits on part of that original, the land where that original vineyard was, and so I was talking earlier about the soul of the valley.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robin Lail:
So I think there's some soul that comes out of that, out of that depth of history. I'm a little um, perhaps silly that way, but um, I, I feel that very strongly, so.
Doug Shafer:
I think that's perfect, and you know, everybody drives by that spot. When you come into Napa valley, and you're on the Highway 29, it's four lanes, and it chokes down to two lanes right? Just north of Yountville on your right, if you're heading north is where Totem is.
Robin Lail:
That's right. And that's where we grow the grapes for our single vineyard. Um, Georgia, Sauvignon Blanc.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. That's the one, that's my favorite.
Robin Lail:
Oh I love it.
Doug Shafer:
And you've got a couple, but tell me about Blueprint, cause you've got a couple wines named Blueprint right?
Robin Lail:
So we do have a couple wines named Blueprint. So when we got into the business, nothing would do, but then I tried to make wines of the highest quality. You know, it's called chasing Shafer. (Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Oh stop, really stop that right now. (Laughs)
Robin Lail:
So um, we've worked on that long and hard, and we've been very lucky and um, very lucky with the critics. Very lucky.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
So, but it's very important to um, generate younger people coming into your business.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
And so that was the reason for starting to make Blueprint Wines, we make a Blueprint Cabernet and a Blueprint Sauvignon Blanc. And originally, the wines were called Blueprint in honor of my husband John Lail. Who is an architect who has designed over 50 wineries in Napa Valley, and done a huge number of wine caves as well.
Doug Shafer:
He's done that many wine, I didn't know he did more than 50, wow.
Robin Lail:
Yes. So lovely to salute that.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
Those will probably last longer than the wines we're making, although I'm not sure. (Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Robin Lail:
Um, however uh, last year, we uh, moved forward with the Blueprint wines and the Blueprint wines are wines meant to be of great value. Um, retail pricing is um, modest I think.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
It's $80 for the Cabernet and uh, $40 for the Sauvignon Blanc. And they're great value wines.
Doug Shafer:
Super.
Robin Lail:
So you get a lot more for your buck than um, what the price tag says.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robin Lail:
But, um, and again, of great interests that we found that these wines which we were originally directing at a younger audience um, have vertical appeal, so that's very exciting.
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Robin Lail:
So I find them on the counters of friends of mine in the wine business.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
Which is a great salute, I love that. And now you have two of your own cellar. (Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Thank you very much by the way.
Robin Lail:
Because I brought them here today.
Doug Shafer:
I know, thank you.
Robin Lail:
(Laughs) but um, just recently, we have changed the direction of the Blueprint wines, so at least the reason behind them, and um, I personally and my staff are real believers that we're living in a climate crisis.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
That is of great magnitude. And I recently was appointed as the United States Representatives of the Porto Protocol.
Doug Shafer:
I was gonna ask you about that. That's, congratulations, that's really cool.
Robin Lail:
Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
Tell me about it, can you tell me about that?
Robin Lail:
Yes I can, yes I can.
Doug Shafer:
Yes, you're the, yeah.
Robin Lail:
So the Porto Protocol was founded in Porto, Portugal.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
In July of 2018, um, and it was founded by Adrian Bridge who is the CEO of Taylor Fladgate.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
In Portugal. And uh, the keynote speaker of the first conference, it was a conference that started the initiative, uh, was Barack Obama. And, the idea is this is an initiative that is principally directed towards um, vintners and growers. And the idea is to drive people to become members and as a part of the membership, the new requirements are pretty little.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
Um, there's a letter of principles you have to sign which is pretty simple. And then you agree to take action, and um, upgrade what you're doing.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robin Lail:
It can be in a small way or a very big way, it doesn't matter just to take action.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), taking action.
Robin Lail:
To move forward, to modify your carbon footprint on the planet Earth. And the agricultural business is um, particularly, the wine business is very well geared to that. Um, vineyards sequester carbon dioxide, but there are many things that we can do in our vineyards that improve that even more. Um, wineries generate a lot of carbon dioxide. And so, um, very often um, vintners believe that they have carbon credits coming from the, from the vineyard to counterbalance their carbon dioxide production. Which is true. But you know, it's, it's a time for us to be looking about, really seriously about what we're doing and how we're doing it.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
And, and to again, to take action, it's pretty simple. And the idea for me, my primary excitement is to um, attempt to generate as many members as I can, not only for the impact on the footprint that they're making, but also to build a loud voice. And I remember very well, you know I recently went to uh, uh, climate conference and Jerry Brown was speaking and he said something that was so obvious, but so succinct, and it was, "That if you want politicians, um, to come to your side in regards to anything you're doing."
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
He said, "It's important to create a loud voice." And he said, "Then they will come. Because their primary interest generally is in keeping their seat, that's their basic interest."
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
So pleasing that people.
Doug Shafer:
I'd have to, have to agree with that.
Robin Lail:
(Laughs), so um, I'm, I'm very excited um, the Napa Valley Vintners have joined the protocol, and in addition to that, we have um, a number of other people here in the valley. And, um, this is a global effort, and uh, I think we're gonna do some, make, do some good.
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Robin Lail:
So, we're not gonna create you know, whenever you talk to people about the climate crisis Doug, what happens is that people immediately shut down.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
"It's too vast, it's too uncontrollable."
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robin Lail:
"It's too far gone, it's too ..." All these things. "And what can i do?" And the fact of the matter is that we can all do something, but because it's so vast, people usually go to the door marked, those other people have to do it. The big people have to do it. The really big people.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robin Lail:
And it's true, the really big people do have to do it, but all of us.
Doug Shafer:
All of us.
Robin Lail:
Need to pay attention and, and lean into it I think.
Doug Shafer:
And, and your, your sales of Blueprint wines I think,
Robin Lail:
So-
Doug Shafer:
A percentage goes to climate change.
Robin Lail:
Yes it does. So, now it's ten percent of our, of our online sales um, go to an organization that's deep in the fight against climate change.
Doug Shafer:
Good for you. That's really great.
Robin Lail:
Thank you, thank you, that's very, you know I wish it could be much faster.
Doug Shafer:
Well it's, you know, you gotta take one step at a time, that's a start. And you started, so, hats off to you.
Robin Lail:
Thank you, thank you.
Doug Shafer:
So if people want to find Lail Vineyard's wines, where do they go?
Robin Lail:
Well I think the best place for them to go frankly is to Lail Vineyard's, um, either by telephone.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
And speak to Chantal, who is our Direct to Consumer, individual, or to our website.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robin Lail:
Um, which is www.lailvineyards.com
Doug Shafer:
Great, good.
Robin Lail:
And we'd love to have you come by the way.
Doug Shafer:
Yes, check out, the Cabernets are fantastic and the Sauvignon Blanc is my favorite. So Robin, thank you so much for being here, this has been fantastic, thanks for getting me all that historical information right, it's uh, quite a story.
Robin Lail:
Oh Dough, it's been so much fun to talk to you. I knew it would be.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Robin Lail:
And (laughs) I go away just clapping my hands, thank you, you're great to work with, I loved it.
Doug Shafer:
Thanks for your time.
Robin Lail:
Thank you.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Welcome back everybody it's Doug Shafer with another episode of The Taste. Today we have longtime friend, Spencer Christian, who I must say, I knew him before I met him because I'd see him every night doing the- doing the weather-
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
On ABC TV here in the San Francisco Bay Area. Um, he's a familiar face, a familiar voice, and we finally met back in uh... I think I was... I was thinking about this Spencer...
Spencer Christian:
2003? 04?
Spencer Christian:
Exactly right, right around 03.
Doug Shafer:
And you were up here with Leslie Sbrocco.
Spencer Christian:
Leslie Sbrocco, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Who's been on The Taste early on, from about a year ago-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And uh, you were- you guys were filming a pilot for a food and wine show here at Shafer. We-
Spencer Christian:
That's exactly right.
Doug Shafer:
We did it late afternoon, early evening.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It was a fun time.
Spencer Christian:
It was a lot of- lot of fun, great experience, and what a venue; oh my gosh. It's just beautiful.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
I'm surprised the show never got on the air. But um... (laughs) But we had fun shooting the pilot. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I had a good time.
Doug Shafer:
Anyway, listen Spencer, there's so much we've got. You- you're a wine collector, everything you've done to educate and get people excited about wine-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You've got all your years on television, 13 years on Good Morning America-
Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Doug Shafer:
Meeting Presidents, famous people, we’ve got a story that you just wrote a book that came out in the last year, this blew me away called "You Bet Your Life"-
Spencer Christian:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
A memoir about a tough, tough gambling addition-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That you had some tough times, so a lot to cover. But let's go all the way back. Where were you born and raised? Talk to me.
Spencer Christian:
Well, I was born and raised in Virginia, and um, it's a beautiful state by the way.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
It- it has a- a lot of the features that-that California has. It has beautiful coastline and warm beaches, (laughs) like southern California-
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Spencer Christian:
It has the- the central part of the state which is, just all kinds of history, you know? Colonial history.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
Civil War history, and beautiful farmland. And then the Western part of the state it has mountains and actually has skiing. So uh, it's a beautiful state. But- but I was born in Virginia.
Doug Shafer:
And they've got... and now they're making some really good wines too.
Spencer Christian:
Oh yes, that's right. Quite a few good wines there.
Spencer Christian:
I was born in 1947.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
So um, the first 20 years of my life were spent growing up under the old system of racial segregation in the South because-
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Spencer Christian:
Because Virginia was... it was and is a Southern state, Richmond was the capital of the confederacy. So people who are n- not old enough to have been ar- around and remember what people of color went through-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
In those days have probably seen, you know news reports or documentaries or whatever, every- every day of my life for the first 20 years of my life I was a second-class citizen.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Spencer Christian:
Um, and I... you know, there were signs telling you where you could- could not go, you know, whites only, whites only, black people couldn't go to restaurants or the schools of their choice, or movie theaters, um... but my parents were remarkable people. They uh- pointed to every little step forward of the civil rights movement-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
As a sign of hope and progress. And they instilled somehow in my brother and me this positive, hopeful, aspirational approach to life that despite the daily adversity or indignities that we faced-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
That th- th- things were getting better and our society was moving in the right direction, that you can achieve whatever you want. So I grew up with that approach to life, and here I am.
Doug Shafer:
So tell I... that's (laughs) that's fascinating. So where'd your folks come from?
Spencer Christian:
They were born and raised in the same um dirt-poor little rural county that I grew up in in Virginia called Charles City County. There is no city there, it's all rural... um, my Dad was of that um... generation of young black men in World War II who-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Went and served their countries in the- in the segregated military-
Doug Shafer:
Oh man.
Spencer Christian:
But came home still treated like second-class citizens, not received as heroes. But they had this strong work ethic and this strong faith that you know, God will deliver you through all kinds of adversity, but you know, work hard and be a good person, treat other people the way you want to be treated, and um, you know and- and- recognize injustice. I mean be- feel outraged-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
About the unfairness of it all. But- but carry yourself with a- with a sense of dignity and strength and uh- and I know all these things sound corny, like (laughs) the little values that they-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Toss out in Sunday School.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, sure.
Spencer Christian:
But somehow, they all worked for me in helping me feel that I could... I could take the slings and arrows you know, I could- I could deal with the... the uh difficulties that I faced in my early life because no matter how... here's the thing Doug. No matter how... um, unwelcoming and unfair the outside world seemed to me every day, when I came home I came home to a home that was loving and accepting and supportive and encouraging and that gave me a feeling that I can- I can get through anything in life. I know it sounds weird but that was- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I... um... just kind of blown away.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I mean
Doug Shafer:
I mean for them, growing up the way they did, and to be uh- open-minded and positive and not be resentful-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And then for you and your brother, just one brother, right?
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, just one brother that's right.
Doug Shafer:
Um... to be- to be raised in that community where whites only-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Couldn't use the bathroom, can't eat at that restaurant, as you said the indignity-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It just kind of blows me away and um, the fact that your folks could have that type of home for you guys.
Spencer Christian:
Well you know, that wasn't the rule, that was the exception.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Actually, because many of my peers, many of the kids with whom I grew up uh- did feel that sense of despair-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And hopelessness. But the overall feeling was more one of despair and hopelessness. Like, how will I ever be able to overcome this? Will- will this society ever make me feel like I belong?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Um... but what my parents used to do was they were very uh, wise and instructive. We would sit down and have a family dinner in the evening, you know long after a long day of work for my dad-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
We'd watch the national news-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And if something came on about the civil rights movement and you could see you know, there was a step forward being made or the march in Washington was about to occur-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Or President Johnson was about to sign the Civil Rights bill into law, they would point to that, my parents would you see? Things are getting better.
Doug Shafer:
That's neat.
Spencer Christian:
There was reason for hope.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Spencer Christian:
So, they kept reinforcing those teachings, you know? It wasn't like a one-time thing... have hope, be positive, go out there conquer the world but-
Doug Shafer:
It was a daily-
Spencer Christian:
Reinforce- yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Fantastic.
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I remember sitting there with my folks watching the nightly news every night, that was like the thing.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know, everyone sat and watched it.
Spencer Christian:
It was.
Doug Shafer:
Um... so sitting round the house-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Just because I've got to ask the question... any wine at the dinner table?
Spencer Christian:
Ah, no, I had not discovered the joys of wine when I was young. My parents- we were Southerners, and the Southern alcoholic beverage of choice, the adult beverage of choice-
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Spencer Christian:
Was bourbon.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. (laughs)
Spencer Christian:
So on weekends, my parents would- would have- would make what they call a- a highball. (laughs). And it-
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Spencer Christian:
They'd pour a little bourbon into a glass, a couple of ice cubes and some Coca-Cola, and uh that... but I didn't discover wine until well, when I got to college I drank cheap wine-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
The late 1960's we were all drinking cheap wine. Um... but I uh developed a taste for scotch in my early -
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Years. Where I'm 22, 23... I was about 29 when I first... when I- when I had my wine epiphany. (laughs) Do you have time for me to describe it?
Doug Shafer:
Sure. Sure.
Spencer Christian:
Um, my-my wife and I, this is my first wife, we- we used to go out to dinner a lot and we enjoyed fine dining. Neither of us had a curiously about wine or a particular knowledge about wine, but whenever we'd go out to eat the server would always present a wine list and suggest something. And- and we'd listen to his suggestion and we'd follow that, but we didn't absorb any-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
Of the knowledge about wine. But one night we were taking a friend out to celebrate his engagement ... And we went to- we were at steakhouse in Baltimore, and I decided for this festive occasion I should order the most expensive bottle of wine on the wine list.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Spencer Christian:
Not knowing what that might be. And I looked at the list and there was- and this was in 1976-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
The wine that was the most expensive was a 1966 Château Lafite Rothschild. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
There's a name.
Spencer Christian:
Yep. So I picked it. Um, it was about 90 bucks. Can you imagine, spending only 90 bucks today for a Lafite Rothschild? (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that's -
Spencer Christian:
But- but from the moment the bottle was uncorked, the bouquet lifted out of the bottle and just drew me in. Um, and I- I was mesmerized.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Spencer Christian:
I'd never had a sensory experience like that before. And then I- I swirled the wine in the glass instinctively, no one had ever taught me to swirl-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Spencer Christian:
See, it just... I- I just somehow understood that if I swirled it the bouquet would keep lifting out of the glass.
Doug Shafer:
Wow, that's what happens.
Spencer Christian:
And I took a taste, and I was hooked. And within two years from that um, little wine epiphany I had accumulated... I had- I had built wine cellar in my home and had accumulated about 1600 bottles of wine. (laughs) So that's how I started my love affair with wine. 1976.
Doug Shafer:
That's amazing.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know, some people have moments like that. Um, and some people don't.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
A- a lot of times I get asked that same question, it's like "Nope, I don't have a moment."
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I have a- I have a lot of moments-
Spencer Christian:
A lot of moments, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
No one sticks out.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Well b- bouncing back to high school-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
What did you do in high school?
Spencer Christian:
Well-
Doug Shafer:
Sports, activities-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Drama, I mean d- drama probably, right? Because-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Most people think that, right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.
Spencer Christian:
Because, I've got this 48 year career in TV. But no, I was never attracted to drama-
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Spencer Christian:
Because I never... I always enjoyed um... I- I guess being bit of a showman, being myself... but I- I never- but I knew I didn't have the talent to play another character.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
So I wasn't attracted to acting. But I was... all through grade school I was you know, a high-achiever academically, I was a kid who wanted to prove he was the smartest guy in the class. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
But I also played baseball and basketball. Baseball was the only sport I really stood out in and I played baseball in college. Uh, even though I- I wasn't on athletic scholarship-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
So high- high school I uh- I was Student Council President, President of the Class, and on a baseball team, and um-
Doug Shafer:
Popular guy?
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, I think it was, I mean I was a little bit nerdy in that I always wanted to be, you know the - the A student. I always had a book in my hand, but at the same time I- I- I think I had enough of a sense of humor that some of the kids found me entertaining. And I played sports so I, you know, had enough l- enough jockey-ness in me-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
That I wasn't a total nerd. (laughs) So yeah, I was kind of popular.
Doug Shafer:
Good. That's great. And then, uh, I heard um... I don't think anybody knows about this. You tried out for the Orioles, Baltimore Orioles?
Spencer Christian:
Oh yeah. Well- well-
Doug Shafer:
When did that, what's that story?
Spencer Christian:
Okay. So I- I was in college in the late 1960's.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And um... I was smart enough to know that all- I was a good college ball player, but I was far, far, far from major league material.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
So let me make that clear right away.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
But there was a guy on our team, um, the third baseman who was just a natural; this guy was just a gifted athlete. And the Orioles were scouting him. So, one day there was scout there to watch this guy Devereaux.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And on that particular day I went three for five with two doubles and a home run. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Nice. Nice. Nice.
Spencer Christian:
So this scout simply told me, "Hey son, we're having an open tryout, you know, in this town called Petersburg Virginia. He said, "If you want to come we'll be there; we'll watch you." But it wasn't like they... really recognized major-league talent in me, he just told me if you want to come over-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
So I went to this open tryout, went through all the drills and everything, uh, of course I didn't make it. (laughs). But, uh I did hit one- I hit one or two balls to the warning track. So I showed that I had some, you know, had some power...
Doug Shafer:
Had some game.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Uh, and this- this experience I knew I would be talking about 50 years later. (laughs) and I am.
Doug Shafer:
No, I think it's great, it's pretty cool. So in college, you're... so you get oh.
Spencer Christian:
Oh yeah.
Doug Shafer:
After high school, you go to Hampton University.
Spencer Christian:
That's exactly right.
Doug Shafer:
Where's Hampton?
Spencer Christian:
Hampton is- is is actually in the town of Hampton Virginia, which is near the East Coast, it's near Virginia Beach.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And Norfolk-
Doug Shafer:
Norfolk area.
Spencer Christian:
So I graduated from high school in 1965. And you know about my background growing up in the old segregated South.
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Spencer Christian:
So, um, my entire life experience up to that point had been rigidly - a racially segregated life. Um... I- I had, yeah, I was a good student in high school-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And I did well on the SAT, so I had a scholarship offer to Columbia University, an Ivy League School. And my dad really wanted me to go there because, you know, you- you know, it's prestigious, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Sure, right.
Spencer Christian:
Your son, poor black kid from the Old South going to an ivy league school. But I- I think I made a wise decision. I knew that I wasn't socially and emotionally ready for that kind of environment. I was a sheltered, poor kid, you know, innocent and naïve, and uh although I dreamed of going to New York one day, I knew that -that big university-life probably was too big- too big a leap for me at that point. So I chose a safer route, and I went to one of the historically black universities, Hampton- it was called Hampton Institute in those days.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Now it's called Hampton University. Um, and I majored in English, minored in Journalism, and interestingly enough, like two years into my c- college experience, in 1967-68, all those racial barriers in the South were coming down. And you know, students- black students, white students, you know, his- Hispanic, Asian, whatever-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
kids were working together on political campaigns and- and they were- they were integrating the country. And by that time, um you know, I was working the campaigns and what not and, uh, and feeling kind of liberated.
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Spencer Christian:
So I think I chose the right academic path. Um, you know um, I'd like to be able to say, "Hey, I went to an Ivy League School." But, life turned out okay for me. Having - (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
No, I think it's what you do with where you go-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And I mean um... look you were right in the middle of it.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
The whole civil rights thing, everything.
Spencer Christian:
Oh, I worked in political campaigns, marched against the war in Vietnam-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Marched for women's rights-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
Civil rights, all of that. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So in college you're doing English and Journalism, what's- what was the plan? Was- was there a seed planted? Were you thinking you were going to go a certain direction? What was... was there a-
Spencer Christian:
I was hoping to become a print journalist, believe it or not.
Doug Shafer:
A print journalist.
Spencer Christian:
I had no interest in broadcasting, can you believe that? (laughs) I thought-
Doug Shafer:
Well I never thought I'd do a podcast, you know I mean I'm with you.
Spencer Christian:
Well there you go. Um, I- I think um... I was so fascinated by the way the news media covered these profound changes-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
That were going on at that time that uh, I decided I wanted to be journalist. I wanted to write for The New York Times, the Washington Post, and en- enlighten the masses-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
And all that. Um, it just happened that the first major interview I had for a serious job was at a television station in Richmond Virginia of all places. Um, it was a station that had hired the first African-American newscaster uh ever. and the - and the news director who hired this guy was like the Lou Grant character from the-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Old Mary Tyler Moore show.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
So when he met me, I- I recognized he had this gruff exterior but he was- he was a guy with a heart of gold. We sat down and talked for two hours, it wasn't even an interview. It was like getting- a getting-to-know you kind of thing. And he said," I think I see something in you. I think you can- I think you can go far in this business."
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Spencer Christian:
He took me to the studio, I had never been in a television studio before in my life, put me in front of a camera and had me read some news copy.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Without a teleprompter, I'm just, you know, looking down and looking up. And I was totally unintimidated, which is crazy. But I, for some reason I felt like "Yeah, I belong here." (laughs) and he said, "You're a natural, you're hired." And that's how my TV career started.
Doug Shafer:
That's how it started?
Spencer Christian:
1970, 71. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You know, come on. I thought there was a better story because I wanna- I wanna be on TV.
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So I- I- you know, I gotta go meet Lou Grant.
Spencer Christian:
Well the thing is... I shouldn't, Lou Grant, yeah. I should- I should point out I was hired to be a news reporter; that was my-my goal. I- I was inter- I- I am more known for doing weather than any other thing I have done in TV.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
But my passion then and- and even now my greatest passion uh is still news. And so I was a news reporter. I was two years into my stint as a reporter I was asked to fill in on short notice on weather because our weatherman there had quit uh unexpectedly, and I had done a lot of science reporting so... the management knew that I understood enough about the atmosphere that I could talk knowledgeably about weather. And from that- that little fill-in led to being offered the full-time weather gig which I resisted at first, because I said, "Oh no, I'm a- I'm a journalist."
Doug Shafer:
You're a journalist.
Spencer Christian:
"I do news." They said, "Well, you know, we could almost double your salary."
Spencer Christian:
I said (laughs), "Well, I'm a weatherman." (laughs) And of course, doing weather on a local newscast, is a more prominent role-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
You get more exposure than a reporter who's out in the field and you might see him or her a couple times per week. And so I'm-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, you're every broadcast.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, every broadcast.
Doug Shafer:
You're that familiar face.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, so I became well-known very quickly and then stations in bigger markets started offering me jobs. And within- within a very short time, I mean in just a few years I went from Richmond to New York. Boom, just like that.
Doug Shafer:
Well right. Richmond, I was reading your bio... you went to Baltimore for four or five years-
Spencer Christian:
Oh Ba- actually it was- it was under two years in Baltimore; it was a quick-
Doug Shafer:
Okay pardon me, it was two years 75 to 77.
Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Doug Shafer:
And then you're in New York, when?
Spencer Christian:
In 77.
Doug Shafer:
77.
Spencer Christian:
At the ABC flagship station, there WABC. So that was from 77 to 85. And during that period of time I was invited by the network to fill in a lot on Good Morning America. So even though I was working primarily for the local station there in New York and was well-known in the local New York Metropolitan area, I was getting you know... eight, ten weeks of exposure on the network every year on GMA. And then, finally in 1986 I joined Good Morning America full-time. And um, and that was amazing. Not only because it's a network show, but the management, the executives there at ABC news, told me wh- when I was hired on GMA, "Look. We want you to do the weather every day-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
Because that's an important role for us. And we're going to send you out in hurricanes and floods and blizzards and all that. Um, but we know you have other passions and other interests and you can pursue all those interests and do any kinds of reports or stories or interviews you choose to do in addition to doing weather."
Doug Shafer:
They gave you carte blanche.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, it was a rich experience; it was unbelievable. That's how I got to meet all these... you know, fascinating people from you know, Presidents to Kings and Queens and Academy Award winners and Super Bowl winners, and... (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I'm with you. Okay, some of the... pause for a sec, quick step back.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So you- you married Diane, first wife, right after college.
Spencer Christian:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
And then had a couple kids?
Spencer Christian:
Yes. We have two kids-
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Spencer Christian:
Jason and Jessica.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, super.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And so, now you're jumping in... I mean, was the goal to get on national TV, or was it to get a really good local gig? Probably the goal is national, right?
Spencer Christian:
Well- well yeah, and the goal generally is national. But when I- when I first broke into the business, even though I- I said earlier journalism is my passion, it really is.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
I became recognized really quickly and I started connecting that recognition with my involvement in political causes and social causes when I was in college. And I thought, well maybe I could just stay here in the local news, make a big name for myself in Richmond-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
And run for Congress one day. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
I seriously thought about that. But um, things started happening, opportunities started coming my way in- in TV so quickly; the offers from the bigger markets. I- I began to realize, you know I probably should stay with this and see where it takes me. Not necessarily thinking I'd end up at the network, but I knew I'd go somewhere bigger than Richmond and bigger than Baltimore.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
And then when the New York offer came, I thought, "Hey, this is it." And I was, I mean I- I- I want... I want it to be clear (laughs) then whenever I talk about how quickly these opportunities came, I'm not being boastful, I'm- I'm still kind of in awe a- about how quickly these opportunities came my way. So I'm trying to make the point that I'm a fortunate guy. I believe that I deserved those- you know, those- those opportunities. Um, but there are many other deserving people who never get them, you know? But anyhow.
Doug Shafer:
Now, you listen. You're a talented guy, right place at the right time-
Spencer Christian:
That's it.
Doug Shafer:
You- and you work hard. So... getting back to your wine epiphany-
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
That was right about when you were in New York-
Spencer Christian:
That's right, just before-
Doug Shafer:
Okay,
Spencer Christian:
We moved from Baltimore to New York.
Doug Shafer:
All right. So that's... so meanwhile now you're in New York-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You've got the wine bug.
Spencer Christian:
Yup. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
And when you get into things, you get into them big. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
But, so- so- so this is the mid 70's?
Spencer Christian:
Uh, late 70's now.
Doug Shafer:
Late 70's, all right.
Spencer Christian:
77.
Doug Shafer:
All right. So we got into business... we started making wine the late 70's. But I remember it was really tough to sell California wine in New York.
Spencer Christian:
It was.
Doug Shafer:
New York merchants were only buying imports. So...
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Talk to me. What were you drinking, what were you collecting, was there something like the Wine Spectator, were there wine clubs, how did you like learn about it, how did you get into it?
Spencer Christian:
That- that is- such a great question.
Spencer Christian:
Well, after that weekend experience with my one epiphany with the ‘66 Lafite, uh, I... as you pointed out, when I get into something I really get into it.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Spencer Christian:
So I went out and bought every book, uh I could find on wine that weekend. I went to bookstores and I bought Alexis Lichine, and Hugh Johnson and Michael Broadbent, and all those-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
All of those... yeah. And started reading - and then and I would read more about wh- wh- um, the great wine regions of the world, my curiousity was peaked so I would go out and buy different varietals. But I was buying mainly old world wines, I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
You know, because I'd been introduced to Bordeaux and I loved it. And I tried burgundy and I thought, "Ehh." Red Burgundy, and I thought, "I guess I don't like the Pinot Noir grape"-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
"as much as I like the Bordeaux grapes."
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Then I tried some white wines, and I tried some Italian wines. But I was buying mainly Bordeaux.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And- and apart from you know, reading all these books, I found a wine mentor.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
I was buying a lot of my wine from a wine store in Manhattan that was a block from the ABC Studios-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Spencer Christian:
Called 67 Wines and Spirits.
Doug Shafer:
I know that place.
Spencer Christian:
You know that place?
Doug Shafer:
I walked there - selling wine to them.
Spencer Christian:
And years ago, Jack Lang was the wine guy-
Doug Shafer:
Okay, okay.
Spencer Christian:
The late Jack Lang. He was my wine mentor, and I'd stop in there all the - you know, three days a week and we would just talk about wine.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
How fun.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, it was great.
Doug Shafer:
So you're getting into wine. You're in New York, in the big time.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Um... we mentioned it before, this is when - this is when the gambling thing kicked in.
Spencer Christian:
That's exactly right.
Spencer Christian:
In 1977 when I started working at WABC, uh, there were a bunch of guys in the newsroom who had a Friday night poker game.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Uh, that went on in the basement of the building after the el- eleven o-clock news. So I- I had played poker once or twice I thought-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Let me play poker with the guys.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Um, and wh- what started as a friendly game, (laughs) where you could win or lose a couple hundred bucks on a Friday night, morphed into a cutthroat game.
Doug Shafer:
Oh man.
Spencer Christian:
In which you could lose a thousand or two dollars on any given Friday night. Um, and, not being an experienced player I was losing more often than winning-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Spencer Christian:
So I- I that's when I was first... I don't know, not bitten by the bug because I wasn't really enjoying it that much, but I began chasing my losses, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Interesting.
Spencer Christian:
I wanted to- I couldn't wait to go back every Friday night to try to make up for what I had lost the previous Friday night. And at about that time, casino gambling opened up in Atlantic City, New Jersey.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's when it became legalized. Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. In 1978.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And A- Atlantic City is just over a two hour drive from New York, so uh I could easily get down there for a weekend getaway with my family; my kids were young then-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Spencer Christian:
My wife and I we'd drive down with the kids or another couple, spend the weekend, but... from the moment I first walked into a casino I was- I was hooked. Uh-
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Spencer Christian:
There was something electric about it, you know? There was a buzz-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
That I felt. And it was almost like a drug I guess.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
I don't do drugs, but I can imagine the high that I felt being in the casino is what a lot of people are chasing with substances.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
So I played craps, and blackjack, and all those games and, uh within a short time I had become a high roller. Within a couple of years I had begun playing at such high stakes and putting so much money at risk that I was getting, you know, the VIP treatment with the gourmet meal, restaurants in the VIP suites-
Doug Shafer:
Jeez.
Spencer Christian:
Limos, and you know everything is comped-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
Because they know you're going to give them enough action.
Doug Shafer:
So on the- the casino thing you became a VIP which means that you got the limos, you got the suite, you got the free dinners. Gourmet dinners. I'm assuming you're getting great wines and you being into wines what was that all about?
Spencer Christian:
Oh yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Was that kind of fun?
Spencer Christian:
Oh that- that part of it was- was kind of fun.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, all right.
Spencer Christian:
Even- even on a losing night in the casino-
Doug Shafer:
Okay (laughs).
Spencer Christian:
I knew I could go into the gourmet restaurant, order a bottle of, you know 1959 Chateau Latour or- or '61 Chateau Margaux.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Spencer Christian:
Uh, or uh an '87 Shafer Hillside Select. Uh (laughs) which I did.
Doug Shafer:
Right (laughs).
Spencer Christian:
So to make a long story a little bit shorter- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Um... within about six years, between 1978 and 1984, I had lost so much money and was so embarrassed; you know felt so... uh- uh silly and foolish and ashamed-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Of myself and didn't want people to know.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Spencer Christian:
Um, I was borrowing money here and there to cover my losses, and taking out extra mortgages on the home, and I fell behind on Federal Income Taxes. To the- to the point where a guy in a dark suit, something like out of a movie, showed up at my house one day, representing the IRS, tacked a sign on my front door saying, "This house- this home has been seized by the Internal Revenue Service for um... failure to pay back taxes."
Doug Shafer:
Oh, Spencer.
Spencer Christian:
And I uh had to move my family out of the house, the house was sold at auction by the- by the IRS. And we had to move into a rental property until I could recover.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
That was the beginning of nearly 30 years of uh being on this destructive-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Path of gambling.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, I mean, I- I- I was on the verge of financial collapse. Even though I was earning a lot of money, for the entire 30 years I was gambling. And you know, um, there were frequent trips to Vegas-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Spencer Christian:
And they fly me to the Bahamas, when- when Good Morning America would send me out on a Friday remote; you know they would send me to different places-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
All around the country. If I was anywhere west of the Mississippi River in that Friday broadcast I would take a flight to Vegas and- and gamble until Sunday and then come home. Or, fly my family out and call it a vacation.
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Spencer Christian:
And then um, if I was anywhere east of the Mississippi River on a Friday, I'd end up in Atlantic City as my gambling venue. Um, and I- I was the- the- the first few years it was exciting, it was fun, and you know, the high roller treatment-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Spencer Christian:
Was um, like a narcot- narcotic.
Doug Shafer:
Sure, you get to- it sucks you right in.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. But- but you know after 20 years or so it was just wearing me down. I had earned all this money and was taking care of my family but I was always drowning in debt.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
And you- you know, and always stressed out about how can I handle this and make it right without the world finding out?
Doug Shafer:
Oh, because you're- you're Spencer Christian on national TV, Good Morning America.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That... oh, that must have been a lot of pressure.
Spencer Christian:
It was a lot of pressure. And- and yet I- I think the way I was able to survive that pressure and- and even thrive under it... because pressure, the pressure is huge. I mean, and it's mind-bending, uh, is that I did have other things in my life that gave me joy.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
You know my family gave me joy, I was and I still am-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
A dedicated father. Um, I loved my work so I never missed a day for work because of gambling.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
I showed up every day (laughs) at the studio at 5 A.M. for GMA. Um, and you know I'm a person of faith so I continued the practice of my faith and you know feeling God's presence in my life, and his- his support. But despite all that, I was I- it took me all those years to get off that self-destructive path.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Well, I'm glad you're off it.
Spencer Christian:
I'm off it. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Speaking of destructive things, I want to come back. You mentioned going back on these remotes-
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So, you're the guy... (laughs) sorry. You're the guy in the rain slicker-
Spencer Christian:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Out on the- the corner street in New Orleans or somewhere-
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
With the winds- you know winds blowing you sideways, and- and there's trees blowing in the background behind you like down the street.
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I mean, I've met a couple folks like you, I mean they do the disaster reporting and the stories are classic. You know the one, is the one guy is a photographer, he says, "Well, I land I get the biggest SUV I can get, a couple of five gallon jugs of gas, a couple five gallon jugs of water, and I'm driving in on an empty freeway where the four lanes coming out are packed."
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
And um... tell- tell me. Any crazy, wild, dangerous?
Spencer Christian:
You just-
Doug Shafer:
I'm sure there's many, but-
Spencer Christian:
You described it perfectly, that's exactly what it's like. Let's say a- a hurricane was expected to make landfall in Charleston, South Carolina.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
So um, the... you know the airports start to shut down within 100 miles of wherever the storm is expected to hit.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Spencer Christian:
So, GMA would fly me into someplace, you know, maybe in Tennessee. And I'd get into a rental car and drive myself all night to that point on the South Carolina coast-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Spencer Christian:
And as you said, as I'm driving and everybody else is driving-
Doug Shafer:
Coming out-
Spencer Christian:
Out because they're being evacuated. And so then the big SUV with the- with the camera crew, and we'd stop along the way and buy non-perishable food items-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
That would last us two or three days.
Doug Shafer:
Smart.
Spencer Christian:
Because we know electric power is going to be out, you are not going to be able to get a hot shower, there won't be any restaurants.
Doug Shafer:
Oh man.
Spencer Christian:
So we're surviving on, you know, peanuts and peanut butter-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
And chips, (laughs) and crackers.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Um, and then there's the storm, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
You get there and it- it's only you and the emergency services people, everybody else is gone.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Spencer Christian:
And the wind starts to get stronger and fortunately, I don't know if it's fortunate but fortunate for the TV producers, a lot of times the storm would be at its peak when I was actually on the air. (laughs) The timing was so, here I am with one arm wrapped around a utility pole so I don't get blown away, and uh and struggling against the wind and the elements to describe what's going on. And uh, it's... the crazy thing is I was never afraid for my life. My whole- my thought was always, "Can I get out of here before all the roads close, before the bridges shut down; and will I be able to get home to see my family this weekend?"
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Spencer Christian:
And sometimes I didn't. Sometimes I was stranded in these places for two or three days until power was restored and the flood waters receded.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Spencer Christian:
(laughs) And I was- I was in fourteen hurricanes.
Doug Shafer:
Fourteen.
Spencer Christian:
Fourteen.
Doug Shafer:
Fourteen. (laughs)
Spencer Christian:
And um, and then there were floods and blizzards and all kinds of natural calamities.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) And you'd go- you'd go find them. Oh.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, they called me... what they called me the Master of Disaster. (laughs) I was the guy Good Morning America sent into every, uh, disaster. And uh, even earthquakes which are not weather related-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Spencer Christian:
Even though we- we're to think earthquake weather here... I was on a World Series assignment in 1989, during the Bay Bridge World Series and the Loma Prieta earthquake hit.
Doug Shafer:
You were on that one?
Spencer Christian:
I was here and I had covered the first two games, which were in Oakland. And you may recall there was a day off, and then the day that game three was supposed to be played was the day Loma Prieta occurred. So I thought, "Oh, I'm going to be smart this time. Traffic is crazy here in the Bay Area, I'm not going to try to drive down to the ball park to Candlestick in time for the start of the game, because my- my assignment was to do post-game interviews."
Doug Shafer:
Oh, post-game.
Spencer Christian:
So, when the earthquake hit I was on the 19th floor of the Saint Francis Hotel, in Union Square.
Doug Shafer:
Oh man.
Spencer Christian:
Can you imagine being up in a high-rise building like that?
Doug Shafer:
Was it moving? It was moving.
Spencer Christian:
Oh gosh... it, yes. It was- it was terrifying, I thought that I was going to die right there. But anyhow I you know...
Doug Shafer:
Elias and I were at the game.
Spencer Christian:
Hmm?
Doug Shafer:
Les and I were at the game.
Spencer Christian:
Oh you were?
Doug Shafer:
Someone gave us tickets, right at the last minute, it was... the Giants versus the A's, you know, local. So we went, we had just finished harvest-
Spencer Christian:
Wow.
Doug Shafer:
And our sales guy said, "Hey, I got two tickets, you guys have been working hard, go- go see the game." We're like cool. Beautiful day in October, we get down there early, everybody's you know, tailgating, getting crazy. We- you know we split a six-pack; all we could take was three beers apiece because we were so tired from harvest.
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
But it was harvest time. But that's why we- we were just sitting in the sun in the parking lot.
Spencer Christian:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
Because it was just like, you know, after harvest it's always a big let-down.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And we're in there and that thing it shook and um...
Spencer Christian:
Oh gosh.
Doug Shafer:
And it like we got out of there real fast. And uh, it was long drive home.
Spencer Christian:
What- what was your first reaction? I mean were you frozen, were you-
Doug Shafer:
Uh, it was funny, it was um... the noise was deafening and I thought people were slamming their feet, like stamping. I looked up and no one's feet were moving, it's like...
Spencer Christian:
Oh no.
Doug Shafer:
And the- the light tower started really swinging.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It was over. And then everybody cheered. The power went out but it was still daylight.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And still it was five o'clock and October it's still daylight. Um, everybody cheered because it's like, "Hey, San Francisco had lost the first two games and it's like okay, we had an earthquake now we're going to come back and beat you guys Oakland."
Spencer Christian:
Right, right.
Doug Shafer:
But then it was like twenty minutes, nothing going on, no one knew what was happening.
Spencer Christian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And a guy next to me had a little mini TV. I heard him go "Oh no." I look at the TV and it showed the section of the Bay Bridge down.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And that's when, you know, I said "Elias, just follow me; we're out of here."
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So we got out. I said... well you know.
Spencer Christian:
It's...
Doug Shafer:
That was a long night.
Doug Shafer:
19th- 19th floor. Ooh for you.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, you know I ran down 19 flights of stairs, uh, you know. It was only a 15 second quake, but I probably got down eight or ten floors before you stopped shaking. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You probably start moving right away when you got out of that building, yeah.
Spencer Christian:
It was crazy. But I- I've had so many assignments like that, where you know, the- the thing that you initially went there for became a different story.
Doug Shafer:
Becomes something else.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Interesting.
Spencer Christian:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
That's cool. And then 1995, you started a new show.
Spencer Christian:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
On Home Garden TV, HGTV, and tell me about that.
Spencer Christian:
Well, I was... it was a wine show, it was called Spencer Christian's Wine Cellar. And um... you know I had talked so much so Good Morning America during the little casual chat segments about my passion for wine. Um, that viewers knew that I was a wine enthusiast.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
And whenever we'd do a cooking segment, the chef would always have me there to talk about food and wine pairing. So, out of the blue I got a call one day in 1994 from someone representing this new network called HGTV, Home and Garden Television. And, uh, I was asked if I would... if I might be interested in hosting a show about wine, a show that would be designed to kind of you know, take the intimidation factor away and make wine more accessible-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
To... and I said, "Yeah, you've got the right guy." We just did a deal like that. It was another one of those opportunities that just came out of nowhere.
Doug Shafer:
Well nothing had been done like- on TV with wine before, I don't think, right?
Spencer Christian:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
It was the first one.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, it was the first. And it- it ran for five years.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
It- it- I think three years into the running, yeah around 1998, um, Scripts Broadcasting, which is the parent company of HGTV, bought the Food Network-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And- and moved my show over to the Food Network for its final two years. Uh, but then at the end of that five year run, the Food Network people (laughs) strangely enough were not interested in having a wine show on the Food Network, so the show didn't get renewed. Um, you know, because wine and food go together you'd think-
Doug Shafer:
You'd think so-
Spencer Christian:
It would be a perfect marriage, but...
Doug Shafer:
What did you do on the show? What were some of the things you did?
Spencer Christian:
Oh gosh, we would- we would go to wineries-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And talk to vintners, winemakers, about... first of all about um, you know, the wine making lifestyle. I mean, family wine makers-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Like the Shafer family, the Mondavi family, the Groth family... we'd talk about you know, the family legacy and the history and why they had such a passion for what they do. You-
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Spencer Christian:
Much like you and I have talked many times. But we'd also go to restaurants sometimes and do segments with chefs on food and wine pairing. We would uh, talk to, uh, sommelier about wine etiquette. You know, like-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
What do you do with your cork?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
I mean, if you sniff the cork, does it really tell you anything about what the wine is like? (laughs) Um, so what's proper wine etiquette? I mean, we did segments in wine stores about, uh, cultivating a relationship with a wine merchant as I did with Jack Lang.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Um, if you have an interest in wine and- and want to learn more about wine and not feel foolish, not know what to do when you pick up a wine list, or walk into a wine store... get to know a wine merchant. They- they love to talk about wine, and they will help guide you and you know. So we did segments like that.
Doug Shafer:
You were doing, in- and... and I'm of the mind I think we still need that.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And I'm just kind of- kind of amazed there's nothing like that on TV.
Spencer Christian:
I am too.
Doug Shafer:
And- and you jumped into this thing, I... what was the motivation, there was no template for you to work from, to- to come up with it, I mean, how'd you come up with it and what was the whole process to figure that one out?
Spencer Christian:
Yeah uh well, you know it was... um, it was on-the-job-learning is basically- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
What it was. But I had a- a brilliant producer, um, HGTV had uh, done a contract with this production company in LA called um... oh gosh, Gary Grossman, I forget his partner's name, but- but there were two guys there; one was Gary Grossman. And- and they had a producer in-house who was assigned to my show, her name was Kathy Katz. And Kathy knew very little about wine going into this, so we had a couple of meetings where we- I talked to her about my passion for wine.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Very much like you're talking to me now. And she was taking notes-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Spencer Christian:
And um, th- there was... she said there was something infectious about the way I talked about how much I loved wine that stimulated her interest in it. So she started reading about wine, and sampling wine, and tasting wine-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Spencer Christian:
And as we started doing this show, um, my TV experience combined with her production experience and our shared passion and curiosity about wine led to ideas that just worked on the air. And uh, I- in the first show, it was- it was... I think it started with me walking down between two rows of vines uh, at um... oh, um, S- St. Supery-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
And um, we sh- we filmed this in like 1994, the show hadn't even gone on the air yet.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And I said, "You- you know, people often ask me what is it about wine I love?" and I just started talking spontaneously about my passion for wine, I talked about that one epiphany I described to you-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
With the Lafite and um, and I just... (laughs) and the camera just followed me you know? And when it was over, Kathy said, "That's it, that's what's going to work for us." She said, "That natural enthusiasm and spontaneity," she said, "And if we can carry that over to maybe doing segments with chefs or segments with winemakers, or going into the barrel room..." she said, "As long as, you- you know, your passion always is at the forefront, uh it's going to bring people in." And it did.
Doug Shafer:
It did.
Spencer Christian:
It did.
Doug Shafer:
And that response was -
Spencer Christian:
Oh my Gosh. People would stop me on the street and say, "You know, I never thought I'd watch a show about wine. But you know, I always wanted to know how, you know, when they give me that wine list what sh- what should I be looking for?"
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
"What does that label tell me about what's in the bottle?" And they- they would say, "Would you explain it to me? And now I don't feel intimidated." And we would- um sometimes decide what the next segment would be based on what people were saying to me in- in the public, you know?
Doug Shafer:
On the street.
Spencer Christian:
Sometimes they would- they would offer suggestions. Like, "Why don't you do something you know, with a chef about cooking with wine?"
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Okay. You know? (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Spencer Christian:
We'll do that.
Doug Shafer:
Oh how cool.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Well, you were- you were a pioneer, you still are. So, congratulations.
Spencer Christian:
Well- well I- I guess we became the template for others. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You did, you did. And I- I'm not sure what the... it- it's seems like wine doesn't work on TV.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, I guess not.
Doug Shafer:
I don't know, what do you think?
Spencer Christian:
I don't- I guess the reason is, I've heard this- this opinion-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
That uh, food... cooking works on TV because people will watch the cooking demonstration and feel like, "Okay, I can try to duplicate that at home."
Doug Shafer:
I can go do that, I can stir that pot, right.
Spencer Christian:
But they- they can't... they don't have that same feeling about looking at a wine show. They're not going to make wine at home.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
But I still feel like we offer them useful information. You know, we'll talk about the joys of wine and the wine experience, and how it's more than just sipping a beverage, it's about you know relationships and ... but so far, no wine show on TV has really made it big.
Doug Shafer:
I think yours was the longest.
Spencer Christian:
Probably.
Doug Shafer:
I think it was.
Spencer Christian:
A five year run.
Doug Shafer:
Five years, yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Look at all the things you do. How do you - do you sleep at night?
Spencer Christian:
(laughs) You know, I- I don't require a lot of sleep, but if I get six hours... uh, I'm fine. Uh, sometimes after six hours... this morning for example. (laughs) I got up this morning at about six after having gone to bed just before midnight. And my wife said, "How'd you sleep hon?" And I said, "I slept really well." She said, "You didn't wake up at all during the night, you just-" I don't normally snore.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
She says, "You've been snoring last night." (laughs) I guess I sleep pretty well. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So, 1999.
Spencer Christian:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
A big year for you.
Spencer Christian:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
You moved from uh Good Morning America out to the San Francisco Bay Area, to a local show here. Um, your HGTV show ended.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Your marriage ended.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Um, tough time. What was... how'd you get through all that?
Spencer Christian:
You know, I'm still not sure. But I did get through it. Um, 1999 was probably the most difficult year of my life.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Because um, as my final contract at Good Morning America was expiring at the end of 98-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Um, the- the management, there was new management-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
This wasn't the management that had originally hired me-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Made it clear to Charlie Gibson, Joan London, and me; that was, we was-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
We were that main team for so many years, that they were looking to build a new team for a new generation of viewers.
Doug Shafer:
Mm.
Spencer Christian:
And we weren't treated unkindly, it's just that we were forewarned that at the end of this contract there won't be a new one. So by the time mine expired, uh Joan was already gone from the show and so was Charlie Gibson, although they eventually brought him back.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
So, it was certainly a letdown even though I was treated nicely, uh who wants to leave a show like that-
Doug Shafer:
Oh that's got to be-
Spencer Christian:
Or a job like that? Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's got to be tough.
Spencer Christian:
So, um, so ABC7 KGO in San Francisco, an ABC owned station, made me an offer to move here. Uh for which I'm very grateful, been here for 20 years now. But in- in terms of visibility, prestige and certainly income, it's a huge step down to go from a network to a local news. So, here I am with all this gambling debt... (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Oh that's right.
Spencer Christian:
Right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah?
Doug Shafer:
I'm sorry, how could I forget that. (laughs)
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, I've still got massive gambling debt.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
1999 as I was moving here I had credit lines at 14 casinos in Las Vegas and in Atlantic City, and they were all tapped out. Um, so I'm moving here with all this debt and trying to juggle it, behind on Federal Income Taxes again.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Losing this wonderful job that I loved so much and moving to a place I love but with severely reduced income.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And also, at that time going through a divorce from my first wife. Uh, you know, people always ask, "Well, was gambling the reason?" Well, it- g- gambling had to be a reason she wanted to leave the marriage but it wasn't the reason.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And out of respect to Diane, my first wife, whom I- I love dearly and respect so much, I uh- I won't' share all the details of why she wanted to leave the marriage, but she did.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And- and I reached the point where I realized her mind couldn't be changed, so we went through this amicable divorce, but it was still painful-
Doug Shafer:
Still painful.
Spencer Christian:
Still stressful, and expensive.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
So now I'm out here and I- and I- felt lost the first year I was here. I was 3000 miles away from everything and everyone that had been dear to me for so long.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
And even though I'm in this beautiful place and I'm close to the wine country, which I dearly love, and I'm cultivating new friends, I've got all this stress that I'm dealing with, money I owe to these casinos and you know, they're going to deposit these markers I've signed-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
In my- my checking account, because I don't have the money to pay them off. So I ended up going through a- a bankruptcy that um, um in the year 2000 I believe it was, 2000 or 2001.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Um, that didn't get rid of my- my ordinary consumer debt, you know I honored those debts, but it wiped out the casino debt. And um, and I- I quit gambling for about... almost three years.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And the um, the longer I was away from it the less I missed it. The- the more I was you know, really embracing my new life. So now we're talking 2001, 2002...
Doug Shafer:
And you got remarried in there too, right?
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, got- got remarried.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Actually, I got remarried just 12 years ago, but it was to the women who became my sweetheart around 2002. To Lynn.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay, okay.
Spencer Christian:
To Lyn.
Doug Shafer:
Thank-you.
Spencer Christian:
So by 2002, Lyn and I are together and- and I'm getting back on my feet financially a little bit, and emotionally a little bit. Um, (laughs) but then in 2003, remember when the televised tournaments uh- poker tournaments became a big deal? You know, people were watching the world series of poker?
Doug Shafer:
I do remember that, no, don't tell me... come on...
Spencer Christian:
I- so I- so I- I had thought I had quit gambling, and I had this relapse and started playing poker in 2003, 2004. I- I don't know why, I just fell into it.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And so I didn't, it- it wasn't quite like the old high-roller stuff, where you know they comp you the suites-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
And the rooms and all that. But I was hooked on the- on the game.
Doug Shafer:
On the game.
Spencer Christian:
So... just like my- my uh- my stage one of my gambling (laughs) now I'm on stage two.
Doug Shafer:
Stage two.
Spencer Christian:
And I've got to play at higher stakes. It wasn't enough for me to go to a low-stakes game and just enjoy the challenge. I had to play for higher stakes and higher stakes, looking for that bigger thrill, that bigger win. And of course, that led to another downward spiral.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Spencer Christian:
So for the next 10 years, I had this downward spiral financially, once again. And- and I still had this gambling addiction, you know it- it was expressing itself in a different form-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
But I was just as addicted as I had been. So... the turning point came around, uh 2012, 2013. My daughter Jessica, who is now the mother of my two awesome grandsons-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Noah and Zach, uh Jessica came out to visit me in 2012. And she had just got engaged to Josh, my wonderful son-in-law. And she basically said this to me. She said, "Dad, you know that I love and admire, I love you and admire many things about you, and I think you're a person of great character and I- I really admire the- the things you've overcome in your life." She said, "But uh I'm getting married soon as you know, I'm going to bring grandchildren into your life, and I want you to ask yourself if this is the behavior you want to model for your grandchildren."
Doug Shafer:
Mm.
Spencer Christian:
She said, "If you were to have a heart attack and die at the poker table one night, do you think people would remember the good things about you, the positive things-"
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Spencer Christian:
"and all your accomplishments, or would they remember that you were just a degenerate gambler?" She said, "I- I- I hope you can turn your life around."
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Spencer Christian:
That was unbelievable. You know, you- you talk to people who have these sudden religious conversions, and they- they just- just call it a come-to-Jesus moment-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Spencer Christian:
I had a come-to-Jessica moment, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Right then and there, I knew that I wanted gambling out of my life.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Spencer Christian:
And that's where the turnaround began. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Jessica, what a brave girl. Wow.
Spencer Christian:
Really brave, really brave. And um, so I, I'm often asked to just put into a few words uh, how it is I was able to turn it around. Doug Shafer: Right.
Spencer Christian:
And I say I was saved by love. I was saved by love. My, my daughter loved me enough that she was willing to take the risk, that she could alienate me or offend me or, you know, tick me off. But, but she just... But any, but she did it lovingly. She didn't lecture me. Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Spencer Christian:
You know? She didn't scold me. Doug Shafer: Right.
Spencer Christian:
She started by saying, Dad I love you and I admire you but I'm concerned. Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And how could you not, re-, how could you not respond in the right way to that. How can you not be receptive to that message? Doug Shafer: I'm with you.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Doug Shafer: Children are funny that way, aren't they? (laugh)
Spencer Christian:
(laugh) Yeah. (laugh) They really are. Doug Shafer: I have a few similar stories. So I really appreciate your openness and forthcoming on, on your life, Spencer, and, and, and your addiction, the gambling addiction and you wrote this memoir, book, called You Bet Your Life, which outlines the story. Why'd you do it? What were, what was, were you trying to get a message across, was it just a ...
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, I- Doug Shafer: What was the motivation or what was the goal?
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. I- Doug Shafer: Or if there is one.
Spencer Christian:
I, oh no there was one. I, I think there basically two goals Doug um, one is self-serving. Doug Shafer: Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And that is that it was ah, I needed that cleansing confession. I needed to just go public. Doug Shafer: Okay.
Spencer Christian:
To relief myself of the guilt and the shame that built up in me over this thirty year period. Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
I mean I, um, oh yeah I have high self esteem and all that but ah, I was carrying so much guilt and shame because I would think about the person I always believed I was meant to be ... Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
But I wasn't really, I hadn't become that person. You know I had ah, been so wasteful and willful and um, irresponsible and ah, I was just ashamed of myself. So, I felt, you know, if I know for sure now this thing is out of my life, I don't want any part of it anymore. Ah, if I just tell the world, you know I was living a double life. And um, and, and um, and I'm done with it.
Spencer Christian:
It relieved me of all that guilt and shame. But, second purpose that it serves is, that it's an example for other people who might be facing any kind of, you know, difficulty or craziness in their lives, that you can turn your life around. Takes courage. Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Takes strength. And sometimes it takes support. A lot of support from other, other people. Um, but you can do it. And ah, I guess I, I want people to know if this, this guy they use to see on TV every morning, on national TV, who seemed to have a perfect life, but didn't have a perfect life ... Doug Shafer: Right.
Spencer Christian:
If he has problems like this and can talk about em, maybe I can talk about my problems too, you know? Doug Shafer: Which is the first step to fixing em.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Doug Shafer: Wow. Well you're a liberated guy?
Spencer Christian:
I am. I am now. (laugh). I certainly am. Yeah. And ah, the, the, you know, the responses to the book have been amazing. This book is never gonna sell a million copies, I'm not gonna get rich from it. Um, but it has been richly rewarding if I may make that ... Doug Shafer: Sure.
Spencer Christian:
... little play on words. And that people write me, send me Facebook messages or walk up to me in, in person, in, in the public and say, you know I read your book, wow. It really helped me because I had a problem like this or it gave me the courage to go talk to my spouse or my sibling. Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Doug Shafer: Isn't that something.
Spencer Christian:
So, yeah. Doug Shafer: Well congratulations.
Spencer Christian:
Thank you. Doug Shafer: That's great.
Spencer Christian:
Thanks. Doug Shafer: And back to, back to wine. Um, you got a new show.
Spencer Christian:
Yes. Doug Shafer: Sips with Spencer which you were nice enough to put me on about a year ago. I appreciate it. Tell us, tell us about Sips with Spencer, what's that all about?
Spencer Christian:
Well, that's still one of our most memorable segments. Ah, the segment we did. No actually it was just ... well you know. Doug Shafer: It was fun.
Spencer Christian:
We had a lot of fun. We were just being ourselves. Doug Shafer: Right.
Spencer Christian:
Um, so the, the, it's similar to the, the show I did years ago, um, in that I'm introducing, the viewing audience, to the joys of wine. In all the ways that we enjoy wine, you know? And I, I wanna ... we, we go into ah wineries, like yours ... Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And talk to the people there and the families there and the vintners and the vineyard managers and the winemakers about everything that goes into taking the wine from grape to glass. But beyond that ah, we do some of those other things I talked about earlier. Ah, like food and wine pairings and ah, I did a segment at Meadowood, with ah, with the executive chef there. Doug Shafer: Oh great.
Spencer Christian:
And the Sommelier. And I helped the chef cook a meal and the Sommelier gave us guidance on, on pairing the various courses with wine. And we've gone into wine shops and try to help deliver the message that looking for just the right wine shouldn't be an intimidating experience, if you're not a knowledgeable Oenophile. Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Um, so it, it's you know, all those things. It's, it's about the total enjoyment of wine and we're looking for a ah, long term sponsor. You know we had limited sponsorship early on. We had eight half-hour episodes. Doug Shafer: Right.
Spencer Christian:
Yours was one of the first and um, then that sponsorship arrangement expired and we've got limited sponsorship for a couple more segments here and there. So we're still looking for a long, long term deal that will give us a whole seasons worth of programs. Doug Shafer: Okay, good.
Spencer Christian:
There must be somebody out there. Doug Shafer: Well maybe some, yeah one of our, one of our loyal listeners, you know, contact Spencer.
Spencer Christian:
There you go. Doug Shafer: We need a sponsor. Well good and ah, how about, are you still collecting, you know, as far as wines?
Spencer Christian:
Ah I am, but, but my collection is way more limited than it was back in the day. (laugh) Back in my New York days when I was making the big bucks and had the, the wine cellar in the house and all that. Um, I could, I could ah, I could keep a collection of 15, 16, 1800 bottles. Ah, I think Lynn and I probably now have about 500 bottles. Doug Shafer: Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Roughly. Um and you know, as we, as we consume the wine we replenish the stock. Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And, and, course my, my tastes have branched out beyond Bordeaux. Doug Shafer: Yeah, that's good. That's why I was curious about that. Is it still Bordeaux or you, you're, where we, where, what's our interest these days?
Spencer Christian:
Well Bordeaux will always own a special place in my heart because, you know, it's like your first love. But um, and ah, here in Napa Valley it's like being, you know, in Bordeaux 2.0 because (laugh). Doug Shafer: That's true.
Spencer Christian:
Right? And so I get to enjoy the, the Bordeaux family of grapes but, you know, from a different terroir and a different, slightly different character. Um, and, and so I have a lot of, yeah, a lot of Napa Valley Cabs ... Doug Shafer: A lot of Cabernet's, yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. And Cab-based wines. Um and in the last five or six years, I've developed a great passion for the wines from Tuscany. Oh my gosh, I love what they do with the Sangiovese grape. Doug Shafer: Yeah. I'm with you on that one.
Spencer Christian:
Brunello and the Chianti Classico Reserva. And the Super Tuscans, which are made from the, many of em, from the Bordeaux grapes. Doug Shafer: But some, sometimes I, I love those but boy just the, just the Chianti, the classic, the reserves are just great.
Spencer Christian:
They're, they're amazing. I had one at dinner last night. Doug Shafer: Yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Doug Shafer: There you go. Well good. So Spencer you've got, we can still see you weeknights on ABC.
Spencer Christian:
Yup. Doug Shafer: Doing the weather.
Spencer Christian:
Doing the weather, um, Monday through Friday ah, on the 4pm and 6pm news. Doug Shafer: Got it.
Spencer Christian:
On ABC-7. Um and ah, and, and occasionally, ah Sandhya Patel does the weather at five and eleven, those are the two half hour newscasts that I do the weather four and six, one-hour newscast so if one of us is off then the other one does all the shows. Doug Shafer: All four of them.
Spencer Christian:
So once in a while you'll see me on the 11 o'clock news. Ah and then we have Drew Tuma, who is our ah, weekend ah, weather anchor. Ah, meteorologist. When Drew is off sometimes um, I'm the only person available to, to do a weekend fill in. Ah, that happens maybe four, five times a year.
Spencer Christian:
But my, my regular schedule, Monday through Friday, four and six p.m. And, and I'm loving it. I mean I, I'm 72 and a half (laugh). Doug Shafer: Man, you don't, you don't look 72 to me. You look good.
Spencer Christian:
Well, thank you sir. Well, red wine is a preservative. You know that. Ah, but you know I still um, really enjoy what I do. I, I just ... I, I love my job and, and ah, I, I love the experiences that it ah, affords me. Um, and as long as ah, I'm energetic and youthful enough that they wanna keep putting me on the air, I'll keep going in there to work. Doug Shafer: That's great. You know I, I've always been curious about your guys work schedule. So I mean, do you get in at ... if you're on at four and six, I'm assuming you probably, you get into work late morning, noon, something like there? About right -
Spencer Christian:
Ah, I get in there, ah generally between 12 and 12:30. Doug Shafer: Okay.
Spencer Christian:
And it takes about three hours to ah, ah, you know, ah review all the ah, weather charts and maps and computer models and read through the weather discussions that are provided by the National Weather Service and other forecasting services, to get a good, you know, mental picture of ... Doug Shafer: What's going on.
Spencer Christian:
... how the weather's moving. And then um, after, after you do that ... Ah, that doesn't take three hours, that takes about an hour. But after we do that we have to build a sequence of graphic images on our computer graphic system that will illustrate how the weather's moving. And although we have all this high tech state of the art equipment ... Doug Shafer: Right.
Spencer Christian:
... It's time consuming. It's a time consuming process because much of the information that you see on these graphics has to be manually input, so ... Doug Shafer: So you're doing that work?
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Oh yeah. Doug Shafer: Okay. All right.
Spencer Christian:
Each person that's one the air is responsible for his or her own show. Doug Shafer: Okay.
Spencer Christian:
So yeah, I'm doing that work. And we, now we used to have weather producers, but that position has been largely eliminated, I think, and stations are cutting costs. So the person whose on the air is the weather producer. (laugh). Doug Shafer: Doing the producing, wow. That's good, that's good to know.
Spencer Christian:
(laugh) Yup. Doug Shafer: And ah, I always love the ones where um, guys or gals doing the late night shows, um, and they're all dressed up. It's like okay, they went out to dinner. They had to go to some fundraiser. It's like, I'm kinda like watching them going, have they been drinking or no. I can't really tell.
Spencer Christian:
They might have been. Doug Shafer: Yeah, but no. They, they've, they're ...
Spencer Christian:
They're professionals. Doug Shafer: They're professionals, that's true.
Spencer Christian:
But you know, so many people are fascinated by, by weather. Doug Shafer: Sure.
Spencer Christian:
Because it affects so many things in our lives. Ah, during my years at Good Morning America, I did a number of things we call weather duets. There would be, you know, famous people who'd come into the studio to be interviewed for their latest book or movie or whatever. Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
And, they would see me at this green screen and they would want to do the weather with me. So, I did weather duets with um, well Bill Murray, who did the movie Groundhog Day. Doug Shafer: Oh my gosh, yeah.
Spencer Christian:
Ah, Chevy Chase, ah, ah, Billy Crystal. Tom Hanks. Even Henry Kissinger did the weather with me. (laugh). Doug Shafer: That's really funny. I'm gonna, I gotta look those up.
Spencer Christian:
We've got a cold front over here. (laugh). Doug Shafer: (laugh). Oh. Anything new coming up? Anything in the works?
Spencer Christian:
Nothing new other than trying to get this wine show off the ground. But, I, I do plan to write another book. Doug Shafer: Oh good.
Spencer Christian:
Ah and I'm not quite sure ... I haven't really narrowed it down precisely what the theme is going to be, other than I know I have to write about my own life experience because that's the thing I know best. Doug Shafer: Right.
Spencer Christian:
And the, the thing I have the most expertise in, is you know, reflecting on ah, my own life experience. Um, so it was, so yeah, I'm, I'm trying to figure that out. Doug Shafer: Figure that one out?
Spencer Christian:
And carve out a schedule for writing. Ah, my wife and I travel to, to Italy every September. We're so in love with Italy now. So, we're already planning next September's trip to Italy. Doug Shafer: Great.
Spencer Christian:
And you, you probably know from reading the book that I developed a friendship with Jimmy Carter over the years and ah, had the great honor in 1999, when I first moved here, of being invited to Georgia to emcee his 75th birthday celebration. Well, this year, 2019, I was invited back to emcee his 95th birthday celebration.
Spencer Christian:
So I'm in fairly regular contact with the close associates of the Carter family, checking on his health now. Doug Shafer: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Spencer Christian:
Because, you know, he has had a couple falls and spills lately. But, boy I'm telling yeah, he's a, he's a tough dude. (laugh). 95, he's still out there building houses for the poor. Doug Shafer: For the Habitat for Humanity.
Spencer Christian:
Habitat for Humanity, yeah. Great admiration for him. Doug Shafer: Good for you.
Spencer Christian:
Oh and of course, I, I invest a lot of my time in being a grandpa now. Doug Shafer: That's right. Well, that's big. That's a priority.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah. Doug Shafer: And if people wanna find your book, You Bet Your Life, where do they, where do they look.
Spencer Christian:
Ah, it's available ah, at, at fine bookstores everywhere. (laugh). You can order it on Amazon.com, Barnes and Nobel. I ah, no knock against Barnes and Noble but I think the price is better at Amazon. Doug Shafer: Okay.
Spencer Christian:
Ah, ah and there's still some bookstores that, that have it available, but ah, you know, the first release ah, was, was the time when it was widely, you know ... Doug Shafer: Displayed.
Spencer Christian:
Yeah, displayed, yeah. So now you're more likely to find it on, on Amazon.com or any book retailer's website. Doug Shafer: Great. Spencer Christen, thanks for coming in.
Spencer Christian:
Doug Shafer, thanks for having me my friend. Always a pleasure. Doug Shafer: Great seeing you. Thanks.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Taste. Doug Shafer with another episode. We've got a couple of guests today. They are siblings, third generation of a long time Napa Valley winery family, Hailey and Lorenzo Trefethen of Trefethen winery. I've known their folks, John and Janet for a long time, but haven't spent too much time with these guys. So it's kinda fun to have them here. I think Lorenzo, my last... My best memory of you is some of those crazy things you and my nephew (laughing), long, many years ago-
Lorenzo:
Oh-
Doug Shafer:
... back in high school.
Lorenzo:
... I was wanna say we've been on... I've seen you on the road.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, on the road but-
Lorenzo:
That's always where we catch up (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
That's usually where we see each other. But my first recollections were some high school boy stories.
Lorenzo:
Oh -
Doug Shafer:
That's okay, yeah, we don’t have to go into them
Lorenzo:
We might go into them. We'll see. Yeah. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
So welcome you guys. Good to see you. Hailey: It's great to be here.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Hailey: Thank you Doug.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
Um, so listen Trefethen around 50 years or more, we gotta start in the beginning. Give me some history. It's a real historic property going way, way back.
Lorenzo:
Oh yeah. How much time you have?
Doug Shafer:
Oh, we got, we got as much as you guys want. (laughing).
Lorenzo:
Well 1800s, there was a, the first boom, uh, golden age of Napa Valley. And the property that we're on now is called Eshcol. And um, Hamden McIntyre who was kinda like the Howard Backen of his day, um-
Doug Shafer:
Archi- architect who's-
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Lorenzo:
Architect. Uh, every, every new winery in the Napa Valley seems to be a Howard Backen project. Back then it was, uh, it was Hamden, and he was originally a ship captain for Gustave Niebaum.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Lorenzo:
And he- Hailey: He actually wasn't the ship captain.
Lorenzo:
Not the ship captain. You correct me. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
This I like, this is fun. This is - Hailey: Yeah, he had the honorary title of captain because he did spend so much time on ships and everything, but he was actually an engineer by training.
Lorenzo:
Oh, there you go. Hailey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lorenzo:
See I'm learning something too.
Doug Shafer:
But we all are (laughing). Hailey, thank goodness you're here. But what a great name, Hamden McIntyre. Okay, so he's an engineer. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
We called him captain. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And he designed buildings. Hailey: He also, he made a little wine. And so that's why he had this insight into designing wineries. So, he designed what's now known as like the big four. And so Eshcol, our winery was one of them.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Hailey: And then Far Niente, the Culinary Institute at um-
Doug Shafer:
Graystone- Hailey: ... of America.
Doug Shafer:
... Graystone. Hailey: Graystone. Exactly.
Doug Shafer:
Which was Christian Brothers years ago, right? Hailey: Yeah. Um, and then uh Inglenook.
Doug Shafer:
Inglenook. Hailey: And so-
Lorenzo:
And Frog's Leap and Flora Springs and (laughing). The list goes on and on and on. Hailey: Put the big four. And so it's fun cause there's like little-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, Flora Springs. Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Yeah, yeah. And what, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, and the Frog's Leap- ... Frog's Leap barn. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh my gosh. He did all those? Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
He did all those. No, it's crazy. It's like every time we go out- Hailey: And when you start going into the buildings, you'll see things that are-
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Hailey: ... like very uniquely his.
Lorenzo:
Like-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's cool.
Lorenzo:
... oh, this looks familiar. Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
And mom tells stories she cause essentially Far Niente-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
... and Eshcol were more or less the same building. One was just made out of stone and built into a hill as opposed to where we are in the Valley floor and all in wood. And she tells stories about basically walking Far Niente blindfolded cause it was the same layout.
Doug Shafer:
It's the same layout.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Cause I can remember Far Niente was abandoned forever.
Lorenzo:
Yeah, so was Eshcol.
Doug Shafer:
And so was Eshcol. Okay. Cause okay, all right. All right. Well don't let me interrupt. Hailey: Oh no -
Doug Shafer:
Carry on. So Hamden? Hailey: I mean when the winery was built in 1886, there were over 140 wineries in the Valley. So it was booming. Uh, the cool part about the Eshcol building was it was really technologically advanced cause it wasn't built into a hill. Everyone else was built into a Hill. So you drive your horse and buggy with your grapes up and you'd be at the third floor. Um, and at Eshcol they actually develop this whole horse-drawn elevator system. And then in 1910, got a Foose engine and they actually had a conveyor belt that took grapes up to the third floor.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. So, let's start in the beginning, we wanna get grapes on the top floor because? Hailey: So while you don't have pumps and everything, so you wanna use gravity-
Doug Shafer:
Gravity. Hailey: ... basically. So on the third floor you wanna crush everything and then they just use like wooden troughs and all the juice would just freely, freely flow down to the second floor, um, into big wooden vats. And so, uh, the second floor has these really tall ceilings because you were had all, you were... You were fermenting in there.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Hailey: So you had really lovely-
Doug Shafer:
The big tanks. Hailey: ... tall ceilings and big tanks. Um, and then down to the first floor for kind of like barrel aging and bottling.
Doug Shafer:
That's so cool. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And so I got it. So when you're on a hillside, you got the road that goes up the hill- Hailey: Exactly.
Doug Shafer:
... to the top, you draw them up. But with your place on the Valley floor- Hailey: Horse drawn elevator.
Doug Shafer:
The horse drawn elevator. Hailey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
So it was powered by a horse drawn.
Lorenzo:
The horses and then-
Doug Shafer:
And then stee -.
Lorenzo:
... uses like this like original internal combustion engine. It's like one cylinder. (laughing). It's the size of this table. Hailey: Bigger.
Lorenzo:
It's like eight horsepower maybe. (laughing). And now, now we have like just a little electric motor. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's wild. That's so cool. That's... Thanks for explaining that. All right.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Cause I wondered... Cause I remember I was reading something about, it was gravity flow. I'm thinking- Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... how could be gravity flow on the valley floor. Hailey: On the valley floor.
Doug Shafer:
Now I get it. Okay. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
The horse. Okay. Hailey: Yeah. And most of the other like... Most of the reason that the other buildings in the Valley are still all stone or the wooden ones from that era have all burned down.
Doug Shafer:
Had burned down. Hailey: And that's how dad always thought that this building, you know, would go. So one of the first things he did when he started making wine in there was put sprinklers in.
Doug Shafer:
Good for him. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Smart guy.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. As it turns out, it was a another natural disaster-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. We'll, we'll get there. We'll-
Lorenzo:
... that gave us some problems (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
... we'll get to that, we'll get to that later. We have -
Lorenzo:
We got a lot more to get to.
Doug Shafer:
... we got a lot of time. So, so the boom for Napa Valley of the late 1800s and a hundred wineries. Hailey: Yeah. And Eshcol-
Doug Shafer:
Ham- was Hamden, was Hamden... It was Hamden's property. Was he making the wine there? Hailey: No, he was commissioned by the Goodman brothers.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Hailey: And the Goodman brothers actually they were bankers and so brought the first bank to Napa. Um, things like that, but really also-
Lorenzo:
And there's the Goodman library in downtown Napa. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And in downtown St. Helena, the Goodman-
Lorenzo:
Downtown.
Doug Shafer:
... store.
Lorenzo:
There you go. Hailey: Oh yeah.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Was it the same family?
Lorenzo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
Oh man.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. They were major philanthropists and really like built the, the, the Valley in the early, early 1800s -
Doug Shafer:
I heard.
Lorenzo:
... or late 1800s.
Doug Shafer:
I didn't know that. You know, the more I find out-
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... about this Valley, it's just totally-
Lorenzo:
It's fascinating.
Doug Shafer:
I mean it's... Where everybody's related to everybody. Hailey: (laughing). Yeah, it is.
Lorenzo:
No, it is a small incestuous business (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
We can probably, we can probably manage, you know, eight or 10 marriages and everybody be related.
Lorenzo:
Oh dear.
Doug Shafer:
Oh -
Lorenzo:
And hopefully not bad incestuous.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah (laughing). I don't wanna go there. Hailey: - from outside.
Doug Shafer:
All right. So the Goodman brothers were making wine, how long did they make wine? Any idea? Hailey: Um-
Lorenzo:
Well the, they, they actually had some pretty early success. So 1886, the building was built, all... And I should say it's this beautiful, uh, building and all the timbers are Douglas fir-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
... and all the siding is Redwood. It's- Hailey: Yeah, tongue and groove Redwood-
Lorenzo:
... very unique. Hailey: ... and old growth. Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Um- Hailey: Couldn't build it today.
Lorenzo:
Couldn't build it today if you wanted to (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
And built right across from Oak Knoll Station. Um- Hailey: Train station.
Lorenzo:
... the railroad. Hailey: Train, train tracks.
Lorenzo:
Yeah, cause they were, you know, moving the, the barrels basically out the front door onto the train and then down to San Francisco.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Lorenzo:
Um, but in 1889 at the World's Fair in Paris, um, that's when Inglenook won gold and a few of the Eshcol wines won some medals. And that was sort of like the first, the very first bottle shock, all the way back then.
Doug Shafer:
All the way back. Hailey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lorenzo:
Um, and uh- Hailey: And won awards for Cabernet, for Riesling, which are really fun cause of the variety-
Lorenzo:
Semillon dessert wine. Hailey: ... that we grow now.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Um, and-
Doug Shafer:
That's neat.
Lorenzo:
... and they, uh, it was-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
... it was this, cause the French had just recovered from phylloxera.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
And so they as a thank you to the Americans for kind of coming up with some rootstock that would fight back against phylloxera, they invited the Californians to attend, not thinking that they would win most of the medals (laughs)-
Doug Shafer:
And we did.
Lorenzo:
... which they did.
Doug Shafer:
And we did, and we did.
Lorenzo:
Yeah (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
That's, that's a good story. Hailey: Yeah. But one of the Goodman brothers actually passed away and so it kind of started changing hands and-
Doug Shafer:
Right. Hailey: ... started kind of going downhill.
Lorenzo:
Yeah, the Faver family. Hailey: Yeah. And they kept it going for a while and then you had Prohibition. And so-
Doug Shafer:
And that knocked it out. Hailey: Yeah, I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Hailey: ... they tried to make wine for as long as they could. Um, tacked like sheds onto the building to store all the wine. And after Prohibition tried to sell it off-
Lorenzo:
Yeah, they were running out of space. Hailey: ... 5 cents a gallon. But-
Doug Shafer:
Yep, just didn't make it. Hailey: ... I mean you had that and the combination of phylloxera, I mean, you had... You couldn't make money cause you couldn't sell wine.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Hailey: So you had no money to put back into your dying vineyard and it just destroyed Napa.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Hailey: So you went from-
Lorenzo:
Yeah, it destroyed the American fine wine industry. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I agree.
Lorenzo:
It was fun listening to some prior podcasts-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
... and hearing, you know, the advance of Thompson seedless across California (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Well yeah, because yeah, I mean you're not making wine, you just gotta make-
Lorenzo:
You gotta make a bunch of -
Doug Shafer:
... raisins and table grapes.
Lorenzo:
... raisins. Yeah, exactly. Hailey: Yeah. And that's our property as the vines died rather than planting like a Thompson, a seedless, they'd plant a Walnut tree, a prune tree-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Hailey: ... a pear tree, anything else, cause they could harvest that.
Doug Shafer:
So basically that winery kind of went into hibernation- Hailey: Yes.
Lorenzo:
Like so many in the Valley.
Doug Shafer:
Like so many.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And the property-
Lorenzo:
It was one of the many ghost wineries.
Doug Shafer:
... it was still, it was a big property. It stayed all in one- Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... one, uh, one ownership. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Hailey: The Eshcol, Eshcol property originally was about maybe 240 acres-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Hailey: ... and it stayed, stayed together until my grandfather-
Doug Shafer:
All right. Hailey: ... bought it.
Doug Shafer:
So then we fast forward to granddad. Hailey: Yeah (laughs).
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Tell me about your grandfather cause he's got a story.
Lorenzo:
He's-
Doug Shafer:
Eugene Trefethen.
Lorenzo:
... he does. Yeah, well yeah, I'll take... My middle name's Eugene, so- Hailey: You take it.
Lorenzo:
... maybe I'll-
Doug Shafer:
Lorenzo, you go. You go.
Lorenzo:
... I'll talk about granddaddy (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
You guys get along very, you guys get along very well-
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... I like this.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Surprisingly well, right? (laughs). Hailey: Just wait.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing) - out.
Lorenzo:
Uh, I liked so um, granddaddy grew up in the working summers in Santa Clara Valley.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Lorenzo:
Which was... You read the novels of John Steinbeck, that was the Valley of the heart's delight. You could grow anything down there.
Doug Shafer:
Right. That's true.
Lorenzo:
And over his lifetime he watched that become Silicon Valley.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
And then he was... We had, the family had a ranch in Walnut Creek that we called the North 40, cause it was as far away from San Francisco as anyone wanted to get. And then- Hailey: And it really was walnuts.
Lorenzo:
And there was walnuts. Hailey: It was, it was a walnut farm.
Doug Shafer:
Walnut Creek, that's called Walnut Creek. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Lorenzo:
Yup. And he woke up one day, they'd put the tunnels in, they'd started converting everything to housing, and he woke up one day and realized he had like the last walnut farm in Walnut Creek.
Doug Shafer:
Oh my gosh.
Lorenzo:
So he, he always had his roots in, in agriculture, and when they came to Napa Valley, he was really looking to invest in a place that was going to protect agriculture.
Doug Shafer:
But his, his day job was Kaiser steel, right?
Lorenzo:
His... Yeah, what was Kaiser. Kaiser was- Hailey: Industries.
Lorenzo:
... Kaiser Industries.
Doug Shafer:
Industries. Pardon me.
Lorenzo:
It was, it was Kaiser steel, Kaiser Cement, Kaiser Gravel. There's the Kaiser Pipe plant here in Napa.
Doug Shafer:
Big projects. Hailey: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Kaiser Air. Kaiser Car.
Lorenzo:
Kaiser Air. Hailey: Kaiser Concrete.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. They- Hailey: Pretty much anything you could think of.
Lorenzo:
... uh, they did a few small projects like, like the-
Doug Shafer:
Hoover dam.
Lorenzo:
Hoover dam (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I did, I did some-
Lorenzo:
... the Bay bridge.
Doug Shafer:
The Bay bridge. Hailey: The Bay bridge was a good one.
Lorenzo:
There's actually, I love this story. This just speaks to like that era.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lorenzo:
So they, they get the contract to do the underwater pylons for the Bay bridge, which at that point in time was the largest over-water expanse in the world-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Lorenzo:
... by far.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Lorenzo:
And they get the whole company together. Uh, all of Kaiser at the San Francisco ferry building, and they're all having a party. And Henry Kaiser, Eugene Trefethen, Cornell Meyer, and a few engineers get on a tugboat and go into the, the Bay towards Yerba Buena Island. And they go, "All right, great. We got the contract. How the hell are we going to do this?" (laughing). Hailey: Never done anything like that before.
Doug Shafer:
Well no one had ever done anything- Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
No one had ever done anything of... Yeah. And it was just like ... they, they... Henry would have these crazy ideas and he turned to Gene and say, "Go make it happen."
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Lorenzo:
Um, and one of the, one of, I think, the brain-childs of our, my grandfather that we, um, are... It's just amazing to see what it's become. As Kaiser became, uh, not the first, but one of the first, um, and definitely one of the major companies in the US to provide healthcare for its employees.
Doug Shafer:
There you go. Hailey: Yeah. This was one of the last things that granddaddy did before he retired.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. And-
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Lorenzo:
... uh, so it used to be you had to work for Kaiser to get Kaiser healthcare.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
And now, of course there's Kaiser Permanente.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
That's what it grew into.
Doug Shafer:
So that's your granddad?
Lorenzo:
That was, that was granddaddy. He was- Hailey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lorenzo:
I mean the story's amazing. He just, he... I like to say he dropped out of business school to go work for a small San Francisco startup in the 1930s (laughing). But he really didn't drop out of business school. You did not... There were no startup scene in San Francisco.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
He was Henry's right hand man and he became eventually chairman and-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Lorenzo:
... I think president as well.
Doug Shafer:
No, he ran it.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Um-
Doug Shafer:
What a story.
Lorenzo:
But uh- Hailey: Yeah, but it's funny, I mean those are the values that kind of stuck with us, you know,
Lorenzo:
Right. Hailey: ... to the point that today, well we have Kaiser at Trefethen-
Lorenzo:
Well- Hailey: ... and that's my healthcare. But-
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Hailey: I mean that's for every employee across the company. And you know, healthcare and, and benefits have always been-
Lorenzo:
Yeah, all of our guys- Hailey: ... taking care of your... Taking care of your team is something-
Doug Shafer:
Um- Hailey: ... he definitely instilled in us.
Doug Shafer:
So, so he's got the last Walnut Creek, Walnut orchard in-
Lorenzo:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
... Walnut Creek and he's saying, and here comes urban sprawl, and he does?
Lorenzo:
And so he came... I mean, he and nana started visiting Napa Valley and nana had, uh, an affection for wine. Hailey: She'd always loved wine.
Lorenzo:
She'd always loved wine.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Lorenzo:
And that was probably part of the success of Kaiser actually, is they were doing... They were getting all these projects and the, the Trefethen sort of campaign dinners to get these projects became-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
... famous because Nana was also a master gardener. And so you'd have sort of fresh vegetables on the table and this weird, um, substance called Bordeaux. (laughing). Um, and, you know, no one had had good wine in the US and people- Hailey: Most people were drinking scotch and soda.
Lorenzo:
... it was like a steak and scotch.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, beer and bourbon. Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Exactly.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lorenzo:
And so they came to Napa and there were... It was 1968 and there were a series of rather controversial zoning regulations in front of the County supervisors-
Doug Shafer:
- right.
Lorenzo:
That, uh, said about to establish the first agricultural preserve in North America.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lorenzo:
And if... And Napa was a poor agricultural community.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
And anybody who wanted to make some money as a land owner was looking to sell to a developer.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
And my grandfather came in, did a handshake deal on a few properties, but with the condition that the supervisors passed this thing.
Doug Shafer:
Oh wow.
Lorenzo:
And he flipped the economic calculus for enough people that this passed, and as, you know, that Ag preserve is a foundation of the Napa Valley today.
Doug Shafer:
It's kept us green. Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Kept the developers out.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. Hailey: I mean just forward thinking. I mean, and, and it goes to his history with Walnut Creek and, and the Santa Clara Valley, but just having that vision for something for the future, for it to remain in agriculture, that whole generation. It's just amazing.
Doug Shafer:
Well, he saw the Santa Clara Valley get paved over. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
He saw the whole East Bay get developed into housing. So how, how old, how old were they when they moved up here? Or when he bought the property?
Lorenzo:
He, um... Well he, he was- ... up here partially, I think, because he fell victim to his own retirement policy at Kaiser. (laughing). So- Hailey: He implemented a mandatory retirement-
Lorenzo:
... he was in his late 60s. Hailey: ... age.
Doug Shafer:
Oh no. And it came back to bite him.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Hailey: Yeah. He wasn't, he wasn't totally ready. (laughing). So this was his retirement project.
Doug Shafer:
Oh bless his heart. Hailey: Yeah. But he wasn't-
Lorenzo:
But he got a few others. They, they got the whole family into it actually. They had started sending bottles of wine to, um, Nana's sister and Barbara and Mill Eisele came up the year afterwards-
Doug Shafer:
I remember the Eisele’s.
Lorenzo:
... and setup Eisele vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
Up in Calistoga.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Which later became, uh-
Lorenzo:
Araujo.
Doug Shafer:
Araujo. Who did the Eisele bottling. Or, Phelps did the Eisele botting - Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And Araujo bought it. Um, okay, so there are... So he's, is he living up here in '68? your grandparents? Hailey: Slowly.
Doug Shafer:
Slowly. Okay. Hailey: Yeah, kind of splitting their time between San Francisco. They still had the-
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Hailey: - still had the place in San Francisco. And we're here and kind of remodeling the house that was built in 1910 on the property.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Hailey: Kind of-
Doug Shafer:
But they weren't, they weren't making wine. Hailey: No. He had no intention of making wine.
Doug Shafer:
No intention of making wine? Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But then now your dad, so how old was your dad when this is all going down?
Lorenzo:
Oh, he's a young whippersnapper.
Doug Shafer:
Young-
Lorenzo:
(laughing) Hailey: Yeah, just out of college -
Doug Shafer:
This is, this is father John?
Lorenzo:
He came back from the Navy and was actually going, uh, to business school on the peninsula and he came up with a small business plan for a theoretical family-owned winery.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Lorenzo:
In one of his classes. And on the weekends he was coming up and, um, attempting (laughing) to make wine in the basement of the house. Um, and there were a few incidents. I mean, he was literally making wine in like steel trash cans basically. Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Um, and- Hailey: Some good stories from those days.
Lorenzo:
... he put the lid on cause he'd, he'd, he'd sorta get the fermentations going-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Lorenzo:
... then he had to go back to school.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
So one day he, uh, one weekend he, you know, it was the beginning of fermentation, he put the lid on a little too tight and he came back and the whole can just like the entire side-
Doug Shafer:
Split.
Lorenzo:
... had split and there was half fermented wine-
Doug Shafer:
All over.
Lorenzo:
... all over the place. Hailey: But that led to him also sleeping next to fermentations later-
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Hailey: ... when we started actually making wine.
Doug Shafer:
Really? Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Good. Hailey: Yeah. But dad actually... I mean, he took over kind of the day-to-day farming operations from my granddaddy.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Hailey: And really kind of threw himself into understanding that side of the business, which is where we started.
Doug Shafer:
So when he got out of school, he came up here and started- Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... running it? Because it was a big property. Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Hailey: Yeah. Um, over 400 acres of grapes. And yeah, and it was a lot. But he took that on and then went on to... I mean, it was a time when great-
Lorenzo:
Well, and also figured out that all grapes weren't the same. (laughing). That was... You know, granddaddy wanted to grow grapes cause he'd grown walnuts and, you know, walnuts basically are walnuts. But then dad was like, you know, "We should probably plant different things in different parts of the vineyard." Um, (laughs) and so started that.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
All right. Well that's cool. And now meanwhile though, we got to take a step back because we've got to talk about your mom- Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and your dad. So your... Cause they met at, they met at Stanford, right? Hailey: No.
Doug Shafer:
I think, no, where did they meet? Hailey: They met-
Lorenzo:
They met-
Doug Shafer:
Where did they meet? Hailey: ... in Napa.
Doug Shafer:
They met in Napa. Hailey: Mom was working in the wine growers office for Ren Harris, right?
Lorenzo:
For Ren Harris. Hailey: And dad was going up there and he was kind of feigning interest in joining. (laughing). Uh, but really he just wanted to go talk to this cute girl.
Doug Shafer:
He was just was, he was flirting with the girl? Hailey: Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Smart guy. Hailey: Exactly. And so, uh, yeah, they actually, they met and got married and launched the first vintage of Trefethen in the same year.
Doug Shafer:
Holy cats. But stepping back with your mom, where, where, where's your mom grow up? I don't know this. Hailey: Mom grew up in the Sacramento Valley.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Hailey: In a town called Williams.
Doug Shafer:
Williams? Hailey: On a rice farm.
Doug Shafer:
On a rice farm? Hailey: And so she's a Mald-... You know, so she's a third generation rice farmer.
Doug Shafer:
So she's a, you know- Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Janet, don't take offense, you're a farm girl. Hailey: Exactly. Absolutely.
Lorenzo:
No offense taken, she- Hailey: No, she's-
Lorenzo:
... wears that proudly. Hailey: ... prideful. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Of course, she does cause yeah, she's ridden horses forever. Hailey: Exactly.
Doug Shafer:
That's right. Hailey: She grew up riding horses. She'd have to beg her dad to get a new brush or comb for, but I mean that was her life. She loved riding.
Doug Shafer:
She was Ag, Ag, Ag. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. I never knew that. All right. And then she ends up here? Hailey: So she still grows rice.
Doug Shafer:
Still grows rice? Hailey: Still grows rice.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Good for her.
Lorenzo:
Yup.
Doug Shafer:
So they meet, your dad, uh... So they all get... They get married. And this is what year? Hailey: 1973.
Doug Shafer:
73, they get married? Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Move... They're living here and they start making-
Lorenzo:
First crush.
Doug Shafer:
... wine. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
First crush?
Lorenzo:
First commercial - Hailey: Mom majored in journalism, so she started doing all of our, all of our marketing-
Doug Shafer:
She did all - right. I know that. Hailey: ... Dad made all of our wine in the early days.
Doug Shafer:
And so dad, was dad was wine maker? Hailey: Dad was winemaker?
Doug Shafer:
All right. Hailey: ... for the first couple of vintages.
Doug Shafer:
Well, how (laughing)... All right, so where did he learn how to make wine? Because, you know, this, these experiments have-
Lorenzo:
Out of a book-
Doug Shafer:
... gone awry. But-
Lorenzo:
... he got (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
... of which I've done the same.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I've done the same thing (laughing). It's like, oops, that didn't work.
Lorenzo:
I mean this was the amazing thing back then is you... It was really the wines of early Napa Valley were a testament to the land cause-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
I mean- Hailey: We didn't know that much about wine making.
Lorenzo:
- they were doing. Yeah. There were a few people, there was Andre Tchelistcheff, there were, you know, the Mondavi's have been here for a while. We, we, we would call them up with all of our questions (laughing)-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
... and Mike Grgich too. Hailey: But the big one was, is in the early days it was like, who are we gonna sell those grapes to?
Lorenzo:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
That's - how many, how many acres of grapes? Hailey: Over 400 acres of grapes. And they were-
Doug Shafer:
Cause that's what your- Hailey: ... they were less than 25 wineries in the Valley.
Doug Shafer:
... that's what Gene started, your granddad? Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So he's selling grapes- Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and there's only 25 wineries. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I'm interrupting you. Okay. Hailey: No, it's fine.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah. Hailey: No, it's crazy. And so that's actually when-
Lorenzo:
Well no, dad was... Dad, dad was selling grapes. Granddaddy really like put the estate together, started to re-energize the estate-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
... cause it was a whole mess out there.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
And uh, and dad kind of took over that planting process. And then of course, selling grapes. There's lots of- Hailey: Yeah, and that like him-
Lorenzo:
... stories about that. Hailey: ... co-founding the Napa Valley Grape Growers Association so that they could have a voice in terms of how much money they would get for their grapes because otherwise you were at the whim, you know, whatever the winery-
Lorenzo:
The co-ops. Yeah. Hailey: ... wanted to give you-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, the co-op was big. Hailey: ... is what you had to take.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, cause we moved out in '73 and it was an existing vineyard, but yeah, dad was selling the grapes to the co-op. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And they controlled everything. All the pricing, the whole deal. Hailey: Exactly.
Doug Shafer:
So your, your- Hailey: So grape growers-
Doug Shafer:
... dad John helped form the grape growers? Hailey: Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Aha. Hailey: And it really was to try and be able to, you know, get-
Doug Shafer:
Have some- Hailey: ... good money.
Doug Shafer:
Have some strength. Hailey: Yeah. Exactly. Have some strength in terms of us being a grower.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Back, cause people don't realize, you know, how it was tough to make money growing grapes back then. Hailey: It's still is (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
It's still is. It still is.
Lorenzo:
Yeah, exactly. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
It's still is. Um, all right. So now what do your grandparents think about your dad and your mom like doing the wine thing? Was that- Hailey: Well dad-
Doug Shafer:
... were they, were they onboard? Hailey: ... went to granddaddy the first time and said, I think, you know, everyone really likes our grapes, like that it's good quality.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Hailey: And dad kind of said we should start a winery. Granddaddy looks at him and says, "I'm too old. You do it."
Doug Shafer:
Right. Hailey: And so that's-
Doug Shafer:
So did it.
Lorenzo:
And they're sitting around this first vintage is now like all fermented and uh, they're, they're going, "All right, what are we gonna call this thing? We got, you know, put it in a bottle, put a label on it."
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
And mom, the newlywed into this Trefethen family says, "Why don't we call it Trefethen." And all the Trefethens go, "That's a terrible idea. No one can pronounce our name. It's too long." (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
That's true. It's a challenge. It's true. It's good point. Hailey: It's memorable.
Lorenzo:
It's, but it is, it is... Yeah. She, uh, mom, she had the foresight to recognize that really, you know, the, the name on the bottle matters-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lorenzo:
... and the name on the bottle in, in, in certain parts in our history is really like, that's been the ultimate quality guarantee.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Um- Hailey: We put our name on it and stand by it.
Lorenzo:
... and it means everything to us. Um, and it is, there is, it is memorable, and I swear it gets easier to pronounce the more you enjoy-
Lorenzo:
... the wine. Yeah. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Well that's so... When they started the winery, they, they... Did the, the, the old building, that beautiful building- Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... cause that... Had that been abandoned, was it being used? They had- Hailey: Dad has lots of stories of getting in battles with pigeons and bats and everything else (laughing) that was living in there. So he had to clean it out and clean it up so he could make wine in there.
Lorenzo:
And the first time moms saw it, she said, "Oh, John, what a great building. Can I keep my horses here?" (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Of course, of course she did.
Lorenzo:
He said, "No, I've got another idea."
Doug Shafer:
But that- Hailey: Yeah, so they cleaned it up.
Doug Shafer:
... must have been so cool.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. No, but it was-
Doug Shafer:
It had abandoned, abandoned for years and years and years. Hailey: Well it's one of those buildings that from the outside you'd be like, oh, okay. It's kind of a funny color.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Hailey: It looks like a big barn, but when you go inside and you see all of this Douglas fir and Redwood-
Lorenzo:
Yeah- Hailey: ... and how it was constructed.
Lorenzo:
It's spectacular. Hailey: It's, it just has this warmth too. And this aroma of wine being made there for 133 years, you know. It's really-
Doug Shafer:
That's, that's neat. Hailey: ... special.
Doug Shafer:
That's a good question. The color of the building, has it always been that color? Hailey: Since we've had it, yes.
Doug Shafer:
It's a great color. Hailey: We've kind of... One of the theories is that maybe it was red and faded-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Hailey: ... to that color, but that's the color it was when we got it, and we've kept it that way.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, it's beautiful. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Oh.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Kind of jealous, but that's okay. (laughing). Uh, so, yeah, speaking of grapes and wines, the I... My understanding is your, the first big winner was Chardonnay for you guys, and I think still is. Are you guys kind of known for Chardonnay for the most part, you think?
Lorenzo:
Uh, Chardonnay and Cabernet.
Doug Shafer:
And Cabernet?
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Right. But early on was Chardonnay was the-
Lorenzo:
Chardonnay was the, was the grape we built our brand on.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
And I was on a panel recently. I learned that... Just how rare Chardonnay was when we first planted it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
It was... I mean, grape sort of, you know, you had the... Wine had forever been sold on the basis of place. And then in California, some clever marketers started using those place names to sell wine that had nothing to do with that place.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
And so the fine wine makers started putting the variety of, of wine grape on the label. But Chardonnay was basically unheard of-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lorenzo:
... outside of Burgundy and Champagne. And when granddaddy planted our vineyard, I mean that was a, a massive increase in the amount of the Chardonnay grape-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
... in the Napa Valley. And it was a big- Hailey: It also had a good relationship with Domaine Chandon.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Hailey: - (laughing) why we have a lot of Chardonnay and Pinot on the property.
Lorenzo:
Exactly. That was our first real grape, grape client. And we still grow grapes for sparkling wine-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
... producers today.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Lorenzo:
Um, and we love our bubbles. Um-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, the bubbles are great cause-
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... they pick early, man. (laughing). We love... Growers, we love, we love that. Hailey: Exactly.
Doug Shafer:
But you've got a great spot for... I mean because people always talk about, you know, the, the coast and Carneros cool weather for Chardonnay and pinot but-
Lorenzo:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
... and you guys aren't there, but you're in South Napa and you're over there on the highway cause I'm, I'm here in Stags Leap, I'm not that far from you guys.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
A couple of miles. But I'm over here-
Lorenzo:
Out of the fog-
Doug Shafer:
I'm out of the fog- Hailey: The Valley is a little bit more narrow here.
Doug Shafer:
I'm a little warmer, but you guys have that straight shot with, you know, the fog and the breeze is coming up- Hailey: Straight to the Bay.
Doug Shafer:
... in the afternoon. Yeah, straight to the Bay. Hailey: We'll have um, you know, up to 50 degree temperature swings between day and night-
Doug Shafer:
Wow. Hailey: ... and we'll get that fog that comes and sits over the vineyard and keeps it nice and cool in the morning, and then it'll burn off around noon and get nice intense heat then to ripen the Bordeaux varieties. But because of those like cooler nights, that's the biggest reason of why we can grow Chardonnay, Pinot, Riesling.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Hailey: And even why even our red wines have that bright acidity to them is because those grapes get that break at night, really get to maintain that acidity, that brightness, and then they get the heat during the day to develop flavor.
Doug Shafer:
No. It's a good spot. Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's a pretty cool place.
Lorenzo:
We love it. Hailey: And it's really cool. I mean it's... It allows us to grow nine different varieties on one property.
Doug Shafer:
Nine different varieties? Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You said you grow Riesling? Hailey: Yep.
Doug Shafer:
They grew Rieslings back in 1800? Hailey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
1800s there too? Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's cool.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Hailey: Riesling was... Well, so we started with Chardonnay in '73.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Hailey: And then in '74, we started making our dry Riesling and our Cabernet.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Hailey: And we've been making those three ever since.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. And, and Chardonnay was just the surprise, I guess. It was... So we were... I mean we were really... My grandparents and parents were crazy to be (laughing) here doing what they were doing back in that time. It was, uh... I mean the, the Valley was not a place for wine. It was general agriculture. There was more of other things than there were of grapes planted. Um, and, you know, my grandfather, when he started pulling out, there were some orchards, and you start pulling those out to plant grapevines, everyone thought he was crazy.
Doug Shafer:
Crazy because there's no money in grapes.
Lorenzo:
No.
Doug Shafer:
No. There's not.
Lorenzo:
And dad started... Mom and dad started making wine, and clearly lunacy ran in the family (laughing) cause who in America was drinking wine at that time?
Doug Shafer:
Well, I'll tell you who, because my father moved us out in '73 from Chicago- Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Right when your folks started- Hailey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... making wine. And the reason he did it was because he kept reading these research reports saying there's a coming wine boom in California. Hailey: That's amazing.
Lorenzo:
That's... I heard you say that in some other podcast, and-
Doug Shafer:
I've told same stories over and over.
Lorenzo:
Where, where was he getting his information? (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
No, I don't know because his job, his job at this other company was to do research, like what's the new Twitter, what's new, whatever.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And so he kept coming across this pending wine boom. And he was a bourbon and beer guy.
Lorenzo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And he came out and bought this ranch, not because he wanted to make wine, because as an investment-
Lorenzo:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
... instead of putting stock.
Lorenzo:
How many other people did that though? He must've been-
Doug Shafer:
Again, so all his neighbors in Chicago-
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... said to my parents, you're crazy.
Lorenzo:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
The Shafers are nuts. The Shafers are loony. What are they doing?
Lorenzo:
Yeah. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
It's like they got a covered wagon and they're moving out to Napa Valley. It's like where is that? (laughing). No, it's, I mean... So your parents and-
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... my parents and my parents- Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... crazy, crazy, crazy like a fox, you know.
Lorenzo:
Those... Yeah, no, that, that... And something that I think defines, you know, both of our companies now, it's just that pioneering mindset that like they were first movers and there was something in their character that they wanted to come out-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lorenzo:
... and try something that like anybody who knew anything about wine, knew that fine wine did not come from California. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And I was, you know, I was 17, but I was totally ignorant. Hailey: That's a-
Doug Shafer:
I had no idea. Hailey: ... big change for a 17 year old.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, but it was okay. But I had no idea that there was... This was -
Lorenzo:
Yeah, from Chicago -
Doug Shafer:
... viable business. It's like I'm going with mom and dad- Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and off we go.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It was fun.
Lorenzo:
Uh-
Doug Shafer:
So you're... Go ahead.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. So we're... We start making Chardonnay and uh, yeah, I'm, I'm eventually getting to it, Hailey is like, come on. Yeah. (laughing). So, uh, there were, there were a few tastings in the 70s that sort of started to change everyone's opinion in this Valley.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Lorenzo:
And the first was, uh, of course now what we call the judgment of Paris. And that was, uh, actually an Oak Knoll district Chardonnay-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Lorenzo:
... from Montelena. And then, and that really set the stage for another tasting because it wasn't very well received in France. Stephen, who put it together was banned from the French wine tasting circuit for a year. And the, the French were like tried their best-
Doug Shafer:
Steven Spurrier. I didn't know that.
Lorenzo:
Yeah, no, cause he was a French wine merchant.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
French wine educator. He was important in the business, and they, they essentially excommunicated him for a year-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Lorenzo:
... you know, go sit in the corner, think about what you've done. (laughing). Um, but Le Figaro wrote the tasting up as laughable, and Lamond wrote it up as not to be taken seriously.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lorenzo:
Um, and so... But I guess the question had been called. And so in 1979, the French put together the largest wine tasting or one of the largest the world had ever seen. Um, they tasted wines from 33 countries, and they called it the Wine Olympics. And when the results were revealed, the, uh, it was a blind tasting of course, at the end of the day, Trefethen Chardonnay was declared the best Chardonnay in the world.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man. 1979?
Lorenzo:
Yep. Hailey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Lorenzo:
And no one was more surprised than our parents. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
And your, and your dad was the winemaker? Hailey: Yeah, hmm-
Lorenzo:
Dad and David Whitehouse.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah, David. Yeah, David-
Lorenzo:
- first vintage together. Hailey: That was... Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
David came on board. Hailey: Yeah. Exactly.
Lorenzo:
Yeah, that's right. Hailey: But that-
Doug Shafer:
That's pretty cool. Hailey: ... I mean mom at this point was selling every single bottle of wine. She'd go across the country, she met you, and then she sold you wine.
Lorenzo:
She made sure you had refrigeration. (laughing). Hailey: She had her book. And every place that had Trefethen, you know, was down in this book. So, you know, when they were telling her that, you know, the wine had just won, she's like, "No, that's not possible. I know where every single bottle is." (laughing). And she's just like, she refused-
Lorenzo:
We don't have anyone in France. Hailey: ... to believe it. Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's, that's funny.
Lorenzo:
Yeah, she's telling all of these journalists that they were mistaken. (laughing). And yeah. It really, I think it was, yeah. It was... I mean, it was, move, news moved more slowly back then as well.
Doug Shafer:
Yes, it did. Yeah.
Lorenzo:
So it was this weird like slow build and finally where they, I think they said, well, I guess it happened. And, and people were reading the articles and started buying the wines, so we were like, great. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
That's fantastic.
Lorenzo:
Um- Hailey: But I mean, the, the French were so outraged, there was actually a rematch.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. So -
Doug Shafer:
Oh, they did here? Hailey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lorenzo:
So the, the wine Olympics were organized by Gault et Millau, um, the restaurant guide.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lorenzo:
At the time, they were pretty much as big as the Michelin guide. And as you can imagine, there were some rather disgruntled wine producers in Burgundy. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lorenzo:
And, uh, Robert Drouhin wrote a letter to Gault et Millau and Christian Moueix, um, which we have framed in our tasting room. Um, and he expresses his great disappointment with the (laughing) results of the Wine Olympics, and offered to essentially host a rematch. So the following year they took over the big Burgundy auction at Hospice du Rhône.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lorenzo:
Or for part of it. And they re-tasted all the top finishers from the year before. All the grand crus from Drouhin were included in this tasting. The Drouhin's like handpick the judges and they, they wanted to make sure that, you know, this-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
... was run right, run properly.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
Um, and uh, we won again.
Doug Shafer:
You won again? (laughing). Hailey: We won again.
Doug Shafer:
That's so cool. Hailey: Yeah. And my parents didn't know about the rematch either. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
They didn't know?
Lorenzo:
No. Hailey: No.
Lorenzo:
This was all a surprise, the both times they called us up and, and mom I think was a little more prepared the second time cause it had-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's - Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
... already happened once. But it was, the response was more like, "What? They did it again?" "Yeah." (laughing). Hailey: I mean I think our parents thought someone was playing a practical joke on them -
Lorenzo:
Oh yeah. Hailey: ... because that's the kind of community Napa was, you know, that wouldn't have been unheard of.
Lorenzo:
And those were the type of friends dad had. (laughing). Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's true. That's true. That's fantastic. So that just gets it ... That's gets it going. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Because, you know- Hailey: That way we won't-
Lorenzo:
That kind of going. And that, you know, those, those tastings, they just, they brought attention-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
... to the Napa Valley. And all of the great wines- Hailey: To California.
Lorenzo:
In California and- Hailey: ... as United States could produce great wine.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
This whole wine... I mean, yeah cause the French basically had a monopoly on fine wine up until then. And we shattered the myth that you could only-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
... we Napa shattered the myth that you could only make great wine in France. And it opened the doors for so many other great winemaking regions across-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
... the world. And I just love the serendipity of this. Like we were... We just were there at the right time and it was (laughing)-
Doug Shafer:
It was good timing.
Lorenzo:
... a complete surprise.
Doug Shafer:
Good timing.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So speaking of timing, so Lorenzo, you show up in '83?
Lorenzo:
I do.
Doug Shafer:
Hailey, you show up in ‘86? Hailey: Exactly.
Doug Shafer:
And I hear stories about your dad who's a pilot, like (laughing) using your driveway as his landing place and take off runway? Hailey: Yeah. Well why not? You know? I mean, it's a nice like half-
Doug Shafer:
This, this... Is this, is this- Hailey: ... strip right there. It's very true.
Doug Shafer:
This is totally true? Hailey: It's totally true.
Doug Shafer:
Totally true. Hailey: He kept his (laughing) airplane on the property.
Doug Shafer:
I can't, I just love this thing. Hailey: He painted... He painted a white stripe across the driveway, and he knew that if a car was past that line, he could go ahead and come in for a landing and he wouldn't hit the car. But if-
Doug Shafer:
He would actually land when there were cars like on... So the cars would kind of see this plane- Hailey: Kind of. I mean we weren't that busy, but, you know, just to make sure.
Lorenzo:
Nobody came to Napa. Hailey: (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Still kind of crazy. Hailey: Yeah. Yeah.
Lorenzo:
It was also on the, uh, on takeoff, because you can't see around the corner of the entrance to the driveway, and you always take off into the wind-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
... and the wind is always blowing up Valley.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
So he's taking off towards the entrance of the driveway. If he was not yet to that line and someone turned in, he'd, he'd be the good host. He throttled down, he'd turn around, you know, (laughing) come on, you know. But if he was past that line- Hailey: Past that line.
Lorenzo:
... he was past the point of no return. So-
Doug Shafer:
He's going up.
Lorenzo:
He's going. And a few-
Doug Shafer:
And here comes the car.
Lorenzo:
Yeah, I guess a few visitors, early visitors to Trefethen and got a free and immediate vineyard tour. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.
Lorenzo:
Ahhh!
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. So they turn off the road.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
I just love that. As little kids, do you guys ever remember that, flying with your dad? Hailey: Flying with dad, absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
Flying with dad, absolutely. Hailey: Landing on the driveway, no.
Lorenzo:
No. Hailey: I think that maybe was before-
Lorenzo:
I was- Hailey: ... we really remember.
Lorenzo:
I was almost born in a plane. I was a - I was two weeks late and so-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, you're not supposed to fly... What was-
Lorenzo:
I was, I was comfortable. Um, and uh (laughing)-
Doug Shafer:
Wait, doctors say you're not supposed to fly or was you- Hailey: You just take the doctor with you.
Lorenzo:
Well you take the doctor with you and dad did some light acrobatics to kind of encourage me to-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, you're kidding me.
Lorenzo:
... hey, come on out buddy. Yeah. (laughing). So-
Doug Shafer:
There was, there was- Hailey: And he still took, he still-
Doug Shafer:
... a doctor in the plane? Hailey: I don't know.
Doug Shafer:
No. Okay. Yeah. Hailey: I'm joking.
Lorenzo:
No, I think they were up with the, with their OB. (laughing). Yeah. Hailey: But, uh-
Doug Shafer:
That's pretty funny. Hailey: Lauren was... He was kind of so late that he was just on time-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Hailey: ... which is a knack he has. So he's born on three 17. March 17th, which is St. Patrick's day at 3:17.
Lorenzo:
AM. Hailey: AM.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Lorenzo:
Doubly lucky. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
That's pretty funny. (laughing). So you guys growing up in Napa, so '83, '86, I'd start here as Wine maker in '83. I remember it from my point of view, which was just kind of just one directional cause I had just gotten married and having kids. But... So you guys growing up, I mean you're living... Where were you living? Living on the ranch. Hailey: Yup. Living on the ranch eve- We'd go to the winery every day after school.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Hailey: And then the... Our parents' house is actually up at our Hillspring vineyard, which is just like two or three miles from the main ranch-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Hailey: ... from the winery. Um, and that's really where we grew up. I mean, we played outside all the time. I mean-
Lorenzo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Hailey: ... you know, Hillspring-
Lorenzo:
Or were inside in the cellar (laughing). Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Climbing around on barrels, playing hide and seek. Hailey: But mom instilled her love of horses. So we grew up riding horses.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Hailey: So we'd ride horses through the vineyard. We kept busy and had a blast.
Doug Shafer:
You weren't bored? Hailey: No, not at all.
Lorenzo:
Oh, no. Hailey: Not at all.
Doug Shafer:
Busy? Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
This family does not get bored.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
There's always something to do. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
And so Lorenzo, you were, you were Justin-Sienna, and then-
Lorenzo:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
... onto Stanford. Any, any notable activities or crazy things in high school or college?
Lorenzo:
Oh-
Doug Shafer:
Besides those stories I've heard about you and my nephew, but we won't go there. (laughing).
Lorenzo:
Uh, there was a teacher at Justin-Sienna, Mr. O'Connor, Mr. O, who I really latched on to. Um, and I actually, I just had dinner at his house last night, um, where they get the sort of former students and colleagues together every Wednesday night for dinner. It's really cool, a community thing that they do. Um, but he was a science teacher and, uh, I loved biology. I loved environmental science, which he taught.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Lorenzo:
And so I went to school thinking I was gonna, um, do biology. Uh, I went to college and I went, you know, something like 30% of the incoming class at Stanford has, declares premed.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Lorenzo:
And so they do their best to weed them out with chemistry. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I-
Lorenzo:
We took a year of chemistry to get into biology just to... That was the pre-req. And I think the mean on the final of organic chemistry was like 30.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that's -
Lorenzo:
Even the guys who aced the test, thought they'd just gotten rocked. Um, and that was a... That kinda left a bad taste in my mouth with chemistry. (laughing). But- Hailey: No, cause you said... You always said it was all very geared towards premed too.
Doug Shafer:
Sure. It is. Hailey: So not, like not what attracted you-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Hailey: ... into that to begin with.
Lorenzo:
No, no. And then- Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
... I got through all this to get to biology, and it's the exact same thing that we learned. It's the same syllabus as high school.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
And the professor walks in, he does one of these things like, "Look to your right, look to your left, one of you will not be here by the end of this course."
Doug Shafer:
Oh wow.
Lorenzo:
And I stood up and walked out. (laughing). Um, but uh, while I was there I, I started to get into wine.
Doug Shafer:
Oh good -
Lorenzo:
Um, I mean we'd always enjoyed, the wine was always the table.
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah. You grew up with it big time. Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Everybody was, you know, drinking beer in college and I didn't quite have a taste for it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
I remember we were at a formal dinner and uh, as freshmen and everyone was drinking a certain $2 bottle of wine uh, and we... I just, after the first bottle, I was like, "Man, I can't do this anymore." And I went back up to room. I had like a dresser drawer full of the f- the family product.
Doug Shafer:
I've got it.
Lorenzo:
And brought it, brought it down. Instantly became the most popular table. (laughing). And, uh, I would then, um... I went on to take over a one unit pass fail course. Which was a wine tasting course, which was basically pre-game for pud, pub night.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Lorenzo:
(laughs). Um, but I, uh, yeah, taught... I became professor Trefethen and-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, you taught it?
Lorenzo:
... taught a, a couple quarters. Yeah, one year of the wine tasting course at Stanford, got, got them to buy, you know, Riedel glass where we got them, uh, industry discount. And then, um, had to like figure out how to look like I knew what I was talking about in front of all of my friends. So learned a lot-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
... teaching. Like preparing to teach that.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lorenzo:
That. And it was... It was really cool to just see how wine brought everybody together. Um, and that was, yeah, sort of my first taste of the -
Doug Shafer:
So, yeah. So got it. All right. So that's what got you going on that path. And then meanwhile-
Lorenzo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... you're, you're doing Napa high school or- Hailey: Yeah, I went to Justin.
Doug Shafer:
... Justin Sien- Justin-Sienna. Hailey: I went to Justin-Siena, and then went to Santa Clara. So the joke was that I got 15 minutes farther away from home than my brother. (laughing). Um, but I figured out how to travel in college. And so I spent time in Baja and Costa Rica and in Argentina. Um, and-
Doug Shafer:
Cool, was that... Is that part of schools and internships, those things? Hailey: Yeah. Yeah. But nothing related to wine-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Hailey: ... actually.
Doug Shafer:
All right. Hailey: But it was kind of when I realized that I wanted to come back into the business.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Hailey: It was when I was in Argentina cause you couldn't just pick up the phone and call home. And this was... I mean I... In college, I was two hours away from home. I could always come home -
Doug Shafer:
Sure. Hailey: ... I could always call home. It wasn't a big deal. And so, you know, in Argentina, email, set up a time, you know, get everybody on the phone -
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
Skype didn't work very well. Hailey: And then it's not just like how's mom, dad and my brother, it was what's going on at the winery. This is the first time I'd ever been away during harvest. Like I'd always been home for harvest.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. All right. Hailey: And so it was like, well, how's this person? How's this person? Like what's going on in the vineyard? Like how's the, you know, it was all of this. And that's when I realized how big of a part of my life this was. And -
Lorenzo:
And that's still you - Hailey: ... I always wanted it to be.
Lorenzo:
... you're, you're just always like, how, how's everyone doing? You know, (laughing) like day-to-day, like you're keeping everyone together at the winery. Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
So- Hailey: And so that's when I realized it was a when not a if.
Doug Shafer:
Int- interesting. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So that's... So both you guys kind of like from early on it's like the wine thing's-
Lorenzo:
It was-
Doug Shafer:
... kind of imbued, you know.
Lorenzo:
... the, so the genius of my parents, I think, was they never pushed us into it.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Hailey: But always took us everywhere.
Lorenzo:
It was always- Hailey: I mean they took us-
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Hailey: ... to winemaker dinners. They took us on the road. We were (laughing) in the cellar with dad, like, you know, summer jobs were at the winery. I washed glasses in the tasting room, which was funny cause I couldn't pour wine. But if someone ever got a hard question, they'd come and get me, you know?
Lorenzo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Hailey: We'd get, we started giving tours when we were probably 11 or 12. Um-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, so you've been... Yeah-
Lorenzo:
You might've have seen as around in the early days, mom just took us to her business meetings- Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
... in the crib and she'd have-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
... a little sweet reserved.
Doug Shafer:
I do remember. I do remember that. Yeah. It's like-
Lorenzo:
Yeah. From Robert Mondavi -
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
And she would, you know, if we got a little fussy, she'd rub something on (laughing) our gums- Hailey: On our gums.
Lorenzo:
... and we'd go right to sleep. Yeah. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
So it was kind of like, it wasn't like if you... For each of you, it wasn't if you're gonna come back, it's like kind of when. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Uh, I was maybe had less of that. I, I definitely-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
... had to go away-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
... to come back.
Doug Shafer:
Where'd you go?
Lorenzo:
And gain some perspective. Yeah, just a few hours away. Yeah. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I'm with you.
Lorenzo:
Um, but it's still... I mean, I, I remember coming back for Thanksgiving and just... I mean, Stanford's a beautiful place, but coming back here and being like, "Man, it's nice here."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
It's just a great spot. Hailey: Oh, well Thanksgiving too is like right after the first couple of rains and you have all of that new growth in the hills and everything is so vibrant and green.
Doug Shafer:
That's beautiful.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Hailey: And it just-
Lorenzo:
Plus all the- Hailey: ... feels really good.
Lorenzo:
... the fall colors. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. All right. You're here.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And then fast forward-
Lorenzo:
No, it was, it was, it was a long seduction. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
All right well speak. All right. Well this, I need to know if this, this helped seduce you. Cause 1997- Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... you come out with a new wine- Hailey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... which I didn't know until I did some research (laughing) because I was, so Trefethen makes this wine called HaLo. What's? It's kind of a cool name. It's a really good Cabernet. It's cool. HaLo. It's got like-
Lorenzo:
Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Well it's an honor of you two. Hailey: Yeah. So I got to go first-
Doug Shafer:
Hailey, Hailey and Lorenzo. Hailey: ... even though I'm younger.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. I always thought it should be Loha.
Doug Shafer:
Loha?
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Hailey: But it, it comes from (laughing)-
Doug Shafer:
I love it. That's great. How, how cool of your folks to do that for you guys? Hailey: I think it was another one of those little subtle things of, you know, without directly saying, are you gonna come back? It was like, well, there's a wine named after.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, Yeah. (laughing). Hailey: And also it's, it's a best wine.
Lorenzo:
It was-
Doug Shafer:
No, no pressure. No pressure.
Lorenzo:
... but it was... I mean we were in high school. It was like both like flattering and super awkward- Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
... at the same time. Hailey: It's still is.
Doug Shafer:
Oh- Hailey: They want us to talk about HaLo.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, especially, especially in high school.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah. It's like-
Lorenzo:
And you're like, "Thanks for naming the thing I can't drink after me." (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Well, we got, you know, we've got Relentless named in honor of Elias. So it's like, you know, we're... He and I tastes with a couple of people and it's like comes time to taste Relentless, someone says, "What's the story?" Elias just rolls his eyes and says-
Lorenzo:
I'm talking-
Doug Shafer:
... you know, I'm not talking about this.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And so, so I have to tell the story. Hailey: I think all of us. It's kind of... I think that speaks to our family is that I'm not... I don't really like talking about myself.
Lorenzo:
No.
Doug Shafer:
No. It's, it's tough. Hailey: ... so like talking about HaLo is super awkward. Um, and so to that point, Lauren and I actually just-
Lorenzo:
We turned the tables on- Hailey: We turned the tables.
Lorenzo:
... on mom and dad. Hailey: Um-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, you, okay. What, your, your, your-
Lorenzo:
We got a little something.
Doug Shafer:
Lorenzo, Lorenzo is pulling a bottle out.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Yeah. We wanted to share this with you.
Doug Shafer:
Oh this is cool.
Lorenzo:
Especially-
Doug Shafer:
What's this?
Lorenzo:
... given your history with the grape called Merlot. Uh, so we, um, we spent like a year and a half putting this together. The idea sort of germinated and, um, over a long period of time. But we were actively working on this for like a year and a half.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Lorenzo:
And we somehow kept it secret from mom and dad. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh wow.
Lorenzo:
So, we, we review... We, we sort of revealed this at the company harvest party last year, and we just released it at the winery-
Doug Shafer:
I was about the say-
Lorenzo:
... as a finished wine.
Doug Shafer:
... one of my questions later is, what's new? We’re, we’re - Hailey: Yes, so just released-
Doug Shafer:
... we'll find out. Okay. Hailey: ... uh, September of this year is the first vintage of The Cowgirl and The Pilot (laughing). And we talked a little bit about my parents-
Doug Shafer:
Oh my gosh. Hailey: ... mom the cowgirl and dad the pilot.
Doug Shafer:
You guys look, oh, Jesus, there's the plane. All right. So I'm looking at a bottle. Um, we're gonna somehow get a photo of this-
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and get this up on, on the Shafer site or so, or where we promote this thing. It's called The Cowgirl and The Pilot. It's kind of a vineyard scene with mountains in the distance and the foregrounds, this gal on a horse galloping-
Lorenzo:
Yeah. And her dust -
Doug Shafer:
And her dust -
Lorenzo:
... is creating the vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
Her dust is creating the vineyard. Thank you, Lorenzo. And then in the distance, a little farther back on the right is an airplane that's either taking off or about the land-
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... which is cowgirl-
Lorenzo:
Cha- maybe chasing behind.
Doug Shafer:
Chasing, chasing?
Lorenzo:
Yeah (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
I, I get that. The cowgirl and-
Doug Shafer:
How cool?
Lorenzo:
And setting the width of the vine rows.
Doug Shafer:
So you kept his... Look at you got the back. Hailey: we got 'em back.
Lorenzo:
We got 'em back.
Doug Shafer:
Oh this is really cool. And it's just being released like right now?
Lorenzo:
Er, yeah, like two... a month and a half ago.
Doug Shafer:
Just released it's called The Cowgirl and The Pilot, and it's a 2016, it's Merlot. Hailey: It's 100% Merlot.
Doug Shafer:
100% Merlot from Oak Knoll.
Lorenzo:
It's our best Merlot.
Doug Shafer:
It's your best Merlot.
Lorenzo:
Yup.
Doug Shafer:
Which is a, it's a, it's a good spot to grow Merlot. Hailey: It really is.
Doug Shafer:
Oh my gosh, it's cool. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Are you gonna let me keep this? Hailey: Absolutely.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yay, thank you. Thank you. I love it, I love the label.
Lorenzo:
And it's I mean, so this was the, the idea for the package sort of germinated between the two of us and we got really excited and started putting together- Hailey: The name was easy.
Lorenzo:
The name was super easy. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
The cowgirl-
Lorenzo:
And the artwork was really... I love the way that the artist interpreted, uh, the story of Trefethen and he heard this story about Janet and John Trefethen building this place. And so the cowgirl and the pilot on the label are literally building the landscape.
Doug Shafer:
That's a great name, just really cool.
Lorenzo:
Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
Congratulations.
Lorenzo:
Thank you. It's very cool. Hailey: I mean, and just reflects to we and our parents, that's the other thing, like as much as sure we were at, we were at their work every day after school and we knew a lot about what they did. They also have always had fun. You know, mom still rides competitively, she shows on a national level.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. Hailey: Um, and you know, dad's still flying, riding motorcycles, you know, occasionally racing cars.
Doug Shafer:
He does?
Lorenzo:
Yeah, he's the motor -
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that's right. I read about it. Hailey: Um, and so they just have this love and passion for, for life and enjoyment, you know?
Doug Shafer:
That's pretty cool. Hailey: And that it just fits so well into, into the winery and that we get to have a little bit of fun there too once in a while.
Doug Shafer:
Well, well, well done. That's gorgeous. Hailey: Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
So things are rolling along, shifting gears here and there. Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But this is an important story.
Lorenzo:
Going back to the beginning. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
August, 2014. Hailey: Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Here in Napa, we're all gearing up for harvest. 3:00 AM big earthquake hits Napa, 6.0. I was in St Helena in bed. I literally got, which was 25 miles away. Yeah, I was thrown out of bed. You know, I'm running to, I had two little babies at the time, running to see if they're all right. The house was shaking. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You guys were right in the thick of it. Hailey: Yup.
Doug Shafer:
Talk to me. Where were you, what happened? Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
What's... I mean it was - Hailey: I was, I was at home and I lived just East of downtown Napa and luckily my neighborhood is on rock. And so my house was just fine, which was good because there was plenty else to keep me busy.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs) Hailey: Um, and you know, between tr... calling my mom, um, cause at this point my dad and my brother are out of town and so I'm calling my mom on the way to the winery and up to her house to make sure that everything's okay. Um, and-
Doug Shafer:
That, that's three in the morning, four in the morning? Hailey: At three in the morning, yeah. And it was amazing. I mean, driving all the lights are out.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Hailey: You know, the traffic lights and everything like that. And yet everyone understood that if you were on the road at, right then you had somewhere important to be.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Hailey: And so everyone was so courteous and safe and it was, um, even just that drive in was, was really telling of what was to come for this community.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Hailey: Um, and anyway, mom and I, um, connect, we find each other and make it down to, down to the winery. Um, and it was one of the most special things. There's, uh, four people there, four of our employees there-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Hailey: ...um, with us. And so we're all standing there out on the crush pad and there's a little bit of moonlight. And so it's just enough to kind of tell that things are not right.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Hailey: Um, and you can tell that the building is leaning. Uh, so this is the, and then as the sun Rose, we got even, even better look. And so the winery, the Eschol building built in 1886 was leaning four feet to the West.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. Hailey: So this three story building is leaning way over. Um-
Doug Shafer:
I remember, dri-driving on the highway and seeing it going, "Oh, man." Hailey: Yeah. So that, um, that day kind of changed my life and my trajectory at the company-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Hailey: ...for sure.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs) Hailey: Um, but I think it probably was incredibly painful for my brother and my dad, um, trying to get home and not being able to.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. No, I mean, we were just, it was, uh, it obviously wasn't as bad as being here, but it was almost worse.
Doug Shafer:
It's almost worse if you're not here.
Lorenzo:
There's this feeling of powerlessness. And we were, um, you know, and-
Doug Shafer:
Where were you Lorenzo?
Lorenzo:
We were, dad and I were in, uh, North Carolina.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Lorenzo:
We were trying everything we could to get on, you know, the first flight home, which was not soon enough.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
And getting these terrifying photos. And I mean, I don't think... we told you a little bit about mom's history and she's a tough like farm girl, cowgirl. I've never heard her hysterical until that-
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Lorenzo:
...that call that day. And it was, it was like, okay, this, this is serious, so we need to get home. Um, and- Hailey: But it was kind of amazing. There's also, there's a group that just, you never know how you're gonna react in something like that. And I think just because there was so much kind of, there was this chaos, you know, there were a group of us that just really focused on, okay, one thing at a time, right? This is the beginning of harvest. How do we do this? How do we make sure everybody's safe? How do we make sure like, and go through. And we may... sat down and made a list we're like, all right, "We have employees that need to come to work that need a job."
Doug Shafer:
Right. Hailey: Um, we're not going to have a tasting room, that was clear. You know? We were at the very beginning of harvest, how do we still make our wine here?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Hailey: Right? We've been estate grown, produced, bottled, everything has happened on that property since we began. And so while, while everyone was great, they were like, "Hey, if if you need to make your wine, we'll make room. Like you can make it at our place." And there's such generous offers, but for us, we're like, well, that's not going to feel right. We've got to make it here.
Doug Shafer:
You did there. Hailey: Yeah. And so five, four, five days later we were, we'd resumed harvest. We were picking grapes and crushing in hard hats and safety vests.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs) Hailey: We had people stationed around the building that was leaning over with um, air horns and sort of watching it.
Doug Shafer:
So you were, were you working in the building? Hailey: No, we-
Doug Shafer:
Because -
Lorenzo:
They were working around it, the crush pad basically in the shade - Hailey: We got a crane basically the next day. Um, it was great. We were doing some just some minor work on a catwalk and called them up, said, "Hey, can you bring a few more guys and a little bit more equipment?" And so they came out and we moved our entire kind of like crush operation around the corner a little bit farther away from the building, so we'd be safer.
Doug Shafer:
Little bit safer. Hailey: And then we started working on the shoring system that would really kind of just keep the building from moving anymore. Keep it in place and keep it safe so that we could get through that year's harvest.
Lorenzo:
Which - itself was an amazing engineering feat.
Doug Shafer:
You know I didn't even think about that, because you're right in the middle of harvest for goodness sakes.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I mean-
Lorenzo:
It was the very beginning. We'd done one pick.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, not harvest would've been cha, you know, traum-traumatic enough, but you've got harvest going on. Okay. Hailey: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean amazing teamwork, like seeing the team come together around all of that, it's one of the most bonding things that you can... Like, it was incredible.
Lorenzo:
It really like just highlighted how strong the company was.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Lorenzo:
Um, and that, that really was, I mean it was the most... And also the community. Like food started showing up from all of th-th...
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Lorenzo:
Like nobody called and was like, "Do you need any-?"
Doug Shafer:
They just show up.
Lorenzo:
They showed up with like, "Here's some lunch." (Laughing) And it was just this outpouring of support that was amazing, that kept, that kept us going really.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And I remember it because, because it's such a gorgeous building, it's so historic, you know, it's, it's got it, got it- Hailey: Was on everybody's-
Doug Shafer:
...got on every CNN, right? Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It was like- Hailey: There was no hiding it. Other people had damage (laughing) there's no hiding a building leaning over four feet.
Doug Shafer:
I know. Was that, was that like kind of heartbreaking or was it- Hailey: It was hard. It was hard in a time to deal with-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Hailey: ...some press people when all I wanted to do is take care of what was actually going on.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, they were showing up? Hailey: Oh yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh no. Hailey: People like try... Yeah. We, yeah, we had someone posted at the gate cause people would just drive in like... And people, you know, people would just like, they'd want to walk straight up to it. I'm like, this is a building that is about to like fall over more if there's an aftershock and you know-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah (laughing) get out of the way stupid. Hailey: Yeah. They're like, "Can we go inside?" Absolutely not (laughing)
Doug Shafer:
That's, that's tough. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Cause you guys are dealing with so much anyway. Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Um, yeah. But I mean Hailey and, uh, are, I mean he was just promoted CEO. Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Jon Ruel really stepped up. Um, and uh, I mean Hailey took over the entire process of putting, putting the building back together. Um, and you know, had you ever seen a blueprint? Hailey: No.
Lorenzo:
(Laughing) Hailey: Never looked at building plans before.
Doug Shafer:
Look at you. I remember you telling me this, you... this was your project. Hailey: Yup. So, well, I had an amazing team, you know, and they helped so much. But yeah, the team that we put together, it's fun. Actually, the structural engineer that we ended up working with, his dad had worked on the building in the 80s. And he ended up undoing some of his dad's work. But it was really fun and we didn't realize that until after we'd hired him.
Doug Shafer:
I'm going to ask you a terrible question. I think I know the answer. Did you ever think of saying, "The heck with it, we can't save this thing. We got to tear it down." Hailey: We sat down and we said we need to look at everything.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, you have to. Okay. Hailey: You know, cause we, we didn't know if this building was even saveable at this point.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Hailey: We hadn't had an engineer out to kind of tell us that.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Hailey: And so we did. We sat down-
Lorenzo:
Yeah. And that budget for the repair- Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
...was not very forthcoming. Hailey: Was not expected.
Lorenzo:
It was like, well yeah, not, not only do we not have it, like everyone was like, we don't know how much this is going to cost. Like no one's ever done anything like this before. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But then after, from what you know, our discussion earlier about the history, the history of, of it, it's like I'm going, Oh my gosh, you can't do it. Hailey: This home, you know? And I mean also, I think the, the-
Lorenzo:
It was emotional. Hailey: ...kind of the support from the community too, we realized this building's been standing here, not just for us, but for everybody who drives up and down Napa. You know, it's been standing there for longer than any of us have been alive.
Doug Shafer:
It's a landmark. Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Big time. Hailey: And so, you know, we kind of, it did come down to a little bit of an emotional decision, you know, that if it was that, if it was possible, we were going to save that building.
Doug Shafer:
Well, you did it. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It took what, two, three years? Hailey: About two years. Yeah, a little less than two years.
Doug Shafer:
And you know, on behalf of the Napa Valley and all our people who visit here, thank you. Because it's, um, it's, it's a precious building.
Lorenzo:
I remember the day it, they got it, you know, before we were really rebuilding it. Should we just the first, uh, challenge-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
...the challenge was just get it upright. Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
And I remember that day that the building got upright and it looked the way that it had before. Um, I just, I had this weight that I didn't know I was carrying, like lifted and it was... I just took like the first real breath I think that I'd had since the earthquake. Hailey: Yeah, no, it was funny. It was like, I, I didn't cry about all of this-
Lorenzo:
No. It was like get to work. Hailey: ...like a year later or something.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
But it was, I mean, it was, yeah, it was amazing for you know... Not something we would ever wish to repeat but it certainly made us stronger and- Hailey: Gave us some really great opportunities.
Lorenzo:
Definitely. Hailey: To make some improvements.
Lorenzo:
I, I agree with you. You know, looking back some of those tough things we've gone through here, it's like, at the time it's like, "Oh man, how come we got dealt this hand?" Hailey: Yeah, dad always talked about Phylloxera.
Lorenzo:
But years later-
Doug Shafer:
The second coming. Hailey: Yeah. I mean, but Phylloxera gave us a chance to, you know, we knew our soils better. We knew where, we knew more about wine. We knew more about grape growing. So you knew what should be planted where and then you'd actually, you make the of whatever you get, right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, and you guys are, are-
Lorenzo:
Catalysts -
Doug Shafer:
...you guys are so young. You got a lot more to go.
Lorenzo:
(Laughing) Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I'd say that with-
Lorenzo:
You do too.
Doug Shafer:
I do too.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Hailey: (Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Um, so that was '17 we got it restored, reopened and then '18 was a big year. What happened in 18? That was the anniversary was that- Hailey: Oh, our 50th anniversary?
Lorenzo:
Yeah, we both were like, "Huh?" Hailey: (Laughing)
Lorenzo:
(Laughing) another year went by.
Doug Shafer:
You guys took me through that, I'll take you through this.
Lorenzo:
Yeah, yeah (laughing) Hailey: Thank you.
Lorenzo:
Thank you Doug (laughing) Hailey: Oh man.
Doug Shafer:
So that was anniversaries, you know?
Lorenzo:
Yeah, so that was a big one. Hailey: No that was really fun. My brother played an even, even bigger role. I was at the winery more, but he was out on the road-
Lorenzo:
Judging by my airline status, I traveled more last year than I ever have before. And we're, you know, you know the drill, you're, you're out on the road all the time. So- Hailey: But it was great fun because we went into the cellar and we pulled out a lot of old vintages and to be able to share those with people is, it's really special. I mean, especially old Chardonnay cause people don't think Chardonnay can age.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Hailey: And see you pull out a 20, 25 year old Chardonnay and it's gorgeous. It's still has so much life and vibrancy to it. And people are like, "I maybe would think it's five years old", you know? So, um-
Lorenzo:
That's great. And we've got, I mean, my, our folks had the foresight to save a lot of what they, of every wine they ever made. Um, so we have a full library and we've really embraced the throwback Thursday meme. So every Thursday we're opening something for, from the cellars. Hailey: Yeah, still today. We, every Thursday, we open up a large format old wine.
Doug Shafer:
Cool. That's good. Ah, don't tell my crew here though. Hailey: (Laughing)
Doug Shafer:
So these days it's you and, you two, mom and dad, who's, who's doing what? How's it, what's going on these days duties-wise? Who's in charge or who's not in charge? Hailey: Oh, man I think there's still enough work for all of us.
Lorenzo:
Oh, there's plenty. We should probably back up though, because before we came back or actually as we were coming back, Dad hired a guy- Hailey: No, I was in high school.
Lorenzo:
...you were having - that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, dad hired a guy named Jon Ruel, uh, in the vineyard to take over our, uh, uh, viticulture. And he has just worked his way up through every part of the company and-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Lorenzo:
...the impact that he's had on, um, the wines that we make and the way the vineyard works and the team that he's built is just amazing. And so Jon's our CEO today.
Doug Shafer:
Great. And the fact that our viticulturist is, you know, who started as a our viticulturist is our CEO, should tell you something about how we run this place. Hailey: I was his first vineyard intern and dad also took me to his, uh, his final interview, which we had at the Red Hen.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs) Hailey: That was good.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
That's funny.
Doug Shafer:
So Jon's been there over 20 years probably.
Lorenzo:
This is his 15th. Hailey: It's his 15th year. He just... yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, okay. Yeah. And so Jon has the most difficult job at the winery, which is trying to manage four Trefethens.
Lorenzo:
(Laughing)
Doug Shafer:
So he manages the four of you?
Lorenzo:
Yeah, he's, yeah, I mean that's, that's an impossible task I think. But, uh, Hailey and I are, are working, um, sort of, uh, under his guidance and mentorship.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Lorenzo:
Which turns out to work a lot better than working for your parents.
Doug Shafer:
That makes a lot of sense (laughing)
Lorenzo:
Which we kind of tried. Um, and uh, mom and dad are still involved but much more as ambassadors-
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Lorenzo:
...and, uh, uh, advisors.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Jon is running the day to day and Hailey and I are bouncing around from one special project to the other.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs) Hailey: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Yeah, we're a little more operations kind of based and Lorenzo's a little bit more-
Lorenzo:
Yeah. There's also a real like complimentariness that's not a word, um, in, in our personalities. Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
And I tend to sort of bring a crazy idea back and say, "Hey, what if we do this?" And Hailey's like, "Well, here's how it's actually going to work." (Laughing)
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Lorenzo:
So she, she keeps us grounded. So we're kind of like - Hailey: Yeah, he pushes me to think bigger.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Hailey: So it works really well.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. It's, it's the, it's the, it's the gas on-gas off. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, no, it does work well that way. Hailey: You need both.
Doug Shafer:
Um, we need both.
Lorenzo:
Right. Hailey: Otherwise you're not going to go anywhere.
Doug Shafer:
I-I, yeah I'm with you.
Lorenzo:
(Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You know, I've, I've up to today, I've seen you guys not that often separately, but never together. I got to tell you, sitting here, it's like, this just feels really good. I mean, I'm being, you know, this is the - bravo, and bravo to your folks for getting Jon in his position. And yeah, I mean for you guys to be, you know, you know, working side by side with your parents and trying to figure that out, you know, having that one step between is brilliant. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's really brilliant. Cause uh-
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
...that's good.
Lorenzo:
Yeah, no, but, and with just, the, the team, uh, that that has, I mean we have crazy tenure.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Um-
Doug Shafer:
Well that's -
Lorenzo:
The folks that have been around for, you know, multiple decades and- Hailey: Yeah, one of my favorites is-
Lorenzo:
...and in some cases multiple generations. Hailey: ...you know, in the ‘70s and ‘80s we weren't great about putting pipes down on, you know, where pipes were down on a map, right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, the old, the old as-built thing? Yeah. Hailey: Yeah, yeah. We, we weren't really great at that. But the great part is, is we, you know, Paulino still works for us. So if we have a question about where something is, you just go ask Paulino because he put it in.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Lorenzo:
It's like over there, it's like 10 feet from that tree. Hailey: Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
The problem is when they cut the tree down, it's like, "Oh shoot, where do we go now?" I've had that one. I've got old as-builts, it's like, you know, it's 20 feet from this big boulder. Well, then all of a sudden we redo the vineyard and the boulder's gone. It's like, "Oh no, where'd it go?" Hailey: Yup.
Doug Shafer:
All right, so what, speaking of projects, because I think you're in charge. You, you don't, you don't, you don't just grow grapes, aren't you growing like a thousand things? Hailey: We are, we grew a few other things.
Doug Shafer:
What are you growing? Talk to me, I didn't know this. Hailey: So there's a, yeah we have a garden on property as well. And that started, um, like really formally in 2008, I think. But it's, uh, a garden we call Luerta.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Hailey: ...and everything that's grown there pretty much goes back to the employees.
Doug Shafer:
That's cool. Hailey: So, yeah. And so, you know, during summer, well like this year, we harvested about a thousand pounds of tomatoes alone in one week.
Doug Shafer:
A thousand pounds of tomatoes in one... How big is this garden? Like acres? Hailey: No, no, it's almost an acre. It's not quite an acre.
Doug Shafer:
That's still big. Hailey: But it's... we-
Lorenzo:
The, the productivity of a tomato plant is-
Doug Shafer:
I know.
Lorenzo:
...it's like you're looking at your grapevines coming out like, what are you doing guys? Come on. Hailey: (Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Step it up. Hailey: Yeah, but we'll grow, you know, 10 to 15 varieties of tomatoes, a lot of chilies, right? Cause it's chilies upon chilies, upon chilies.
Lorenzo:
Our guys love chilies. Hailey: And then toma, you know, tomatillos, zucchini, squash, green beans, eggplant. Um, and right now we've got the winter crops going in, but we'll do some fun stuff too. We did okra this year. Um, you know, so there's always something new and they're the favorites.
Doug Shafer:
So it's, it's for the staff, now what about, is French laundry involved too? Do they ever- Hailey: So, um, you know, French laundry redid their kitchen?
Doug Shafer:
I do. Hailey: A couple of years ago and they, during construction, had lost part of their garden to construction and I knew some of the gardeners there actually through our high school teacher that Loren mentioned, Mr. O'Connor.
Lorenzo:
Mr. O, yeah. Hailey: And I had great sympathy for anyone who lost space to construction after we just to have gone through this.
Doug Shafer:
Of course, of course. Of course you did. Hailey: And so looking around and talking to him and I was like, well, I have, we have a fallow field. Why don't you guys come and you can grow a few vegetables. Um, and you know, on the property we'll set up some water-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, while, just while you're under construction. Right?
Lorenzo:
(Laughing) Hailey: And it ended up just being a really great kind of natural partnership and I truly believe in, in when you can, growing everything local, um, and having that. And so I mean there's just, again, just like we're all estate on the far-, you know, on the vineyard side, And so it just made so much sense that we would want to grow all of our own produce as well and be able to grow produce locally. And so, that very temporary relationship is still going. And so French Laundry still, they have a little bit of land that they can, um, produce things on.
Doug Shafer:
That's fun. Hailey: Yeah. And so it goes back to the restaurant. And sometimes like we'll sell them blackberries or you know, Kiwis or -
Doug Shafer:
You get a free dinner or something like that?
Lorenzo:
Not so much. Hailey: They drive off - we get some of their extras. It's pretty funny, they'll bring over like these big bins of chilies thinking that, you know, like they're like, this is-
Lorenzo:
Yeah, we grew too many this year. Hailey: Yeah, and they just watch it disappear within a span of like 10 minutes. And they're just like, what, what, they're just like, how, wh-wh-?
Doug Shafer:
That's amazing. Hailey: Yeah, but it's fun. I mean, and then we have a, we have a company salsa party. So all the ingredients have to come from-
Doug Shafer:
A company, a company salsa party. That's another good idea. Hailey: Yeah. And so we'll have, you know, 20 to 30 salsas and everyone, uh, everyone in the company comes to judge.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Hailey: And so we have this big tasting and you'll just see like-
Lorenzo:
And, and the, our employees are making the salsas as well. Hailey: Yes, sorry.
Doug Shafer:
Sure. Hailey: Yeah. From all the ingredients on the property. And it's funny cause even people will sit there and popping like and snacking on Chili's during the day, when you're tasting 20 or 30 salsas-
Doug Shafer:
Oh no, no, no, no. Hailey: ...you just start sweating. Like everyone right red-
Doug Shafer:
You sweat. Hailey: Everyone, you know, loving it. You know, and it's, it's a lot of fun.
Lorenzo:
And the, it's a really cool nod to the culinary history at Trefethen, which I mean, you know, it was, I actually love that you started the podcast with Cindy Pawlcyn.
Doug Shafer:
Oh I know.
Lorenzo:
She's-
Doug Shafer:
She is the best.
Lorenzo:
I mean we grew up at Mustards.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
And uh, it, uh, but she was a rare beast in those early days. There was no one here. And, and so- Hailey: Culinary desert.
Lorenzo:
And especially in-
Doug Shafer:
With regards.
Lorenzo:
...before Cindy. Hailey: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Lorenzo:
Yeah, there you go. BC, before Cindy. Um-
Doug Shafer:
That's a good one.
Lorenzo:
(Laughing) It was, uh, there were, um, there was, there was really nothing here and we were all, we, the, the vintners in Napa Valley were making wine to go with food.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
But there was no food. And so mom and Nana and a few other ladies- Hailey: Jamie Davies from Shramsberg -
Lorenzo:
Yup, Molly Chappellet Hailey: Mondavi.
Lorenzo:
Yup. Uh, they got together and started basically teaching themselves to entertain. Um, and- Hailey: Teaching each other recipes that they knew to expand your repertoires.
Doug Shafer:
Interesting. I didn't think like that. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But that was the original group.
Lorenzo:
That was, and they... I'm sure we missed, Emily Didier. Um, there, I'm sure we miss someone. Um, but they started, uh, it, they kinda got a little bit bigger and then, and we had this little pool house on the property that, um, once a month or something like that would become the Napa Valley cooking class.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, cool.
Lorenzo:
Um, and for 20 something years, um, we hosted it- Hailey: Well, and it worked so well cause mom and these other ladies were often, um, you know, they're traveling across the country and at that time your wine, the wine buyer was the chef.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Hailey: And so we'd invite the chef to come out to the property so they could experience it with us and we'd ask them to do a cooking class.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, perfect. Hailey: And so, you know, and they were of course willing, cause at that time there wasn't a celebrity chef scene and so it was really fantastic. So they'd come out, teach a class, you know, and be able to come and see the property.
Lorenzo:
Hailey, you're up on a stool next to the kitchen counter watching Jeremiah Tower and Cindy Pawlcyn was one of the chefs-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
...um, and the Thomas Keller as well.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Lorenzo:
Um, those were some of the first, and we had these great relationships with um, Wolfgang Puck and Charlie Trotter. Um, and the, just the relationships that developed from there. And I mean the, the food that's happening like the... We had no idea what was going on.
Doug Shafer:
It was right there.
Lorenzo:
And a few of these great people decided I'm gonna stay here- (laughing)
Doug Shafer:
And open up a restaurant.
Lorenzo:
...and open up a restaurant.
Doug Shafer:
You guys had a, you had a front row seat.
Lorenzo:
We had a front row seat. Hailey: Yeah. It was really fun where in the process of bringing even more food back to Trefethen.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Good. Hailey: Um, I mean, finishing up a commercial kitchen right now so that we can do some wine and food pairings and kind of bring some of that back. And again, I mean, using the produce from Luerta.
Lorenzo:
It’ll be table for both the food and the wine.
Doug Shafer:
So you've got that common, you've got the new wine Cowgirl and the Pilot. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
What else is coming? What else is coming? Hailey: Um, Lorenzo?
Doug Shafer:
Lorenzo, you got, you've got?
Lorenzo:
Something for you.
Doug Shafer:
Lorenzo brought this bag in today and he keeps pulling things out of it.
Lorenzo:
(Laughing) I keep pulling things out.
Doug Shafer:
So here comes something new.
Lorenzo:
Um, so we-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Lorenzo:
...we've only been working on this for about five years.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, so five years.
Lorenzo:
And uh,- Hailey: So that's the original label.
Doug Shafer:
That's the original label. It's beautiful. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Classic. Hailey: If were talking about, you know, the wine Olympics in Paris and everything-
Doug Shafer:
Right. Hailey: ...this is the label that was on, on that.
Doug Shafer:
Very distinctive, love it.
Lorenzo:
And that script was done, uh, so remember moms wants to call it Trefethen. The Trefethen -
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
Mom finds this calligrapher named Sumner Stone, which is like the, just the best name. Like he had to be a calligrapher. Right? Um, he'd, he, she worked with him, he brought in few, um, sort of old, uh, or just nods to our Celtic history cause Trefethen's a Celtic name.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Lorenzo:
And created this very distinctive script. Uh- Hailey: And Lorenzo and I have just always had a love for it.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Hailey: And you know, it's, it's, it's a fondness. Um, maybe it's cause it's the first bottles that we started drinking when we were little, but-
Doug Shafer:
Interesting to hear it. Cause you think the kids would be saying, Oh, this is kinda old and tired, this is mom or dad.
Lorenzo:
So it was that script, and then the top of every bottle is the flower. Hailey: The Trefethen flower.
Lorenzo:
Trefethen flower.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Lorenzo:
And that's been on every bottle we've ever made. And we both have just this great affection for those brand marks. Hailey: It's like our family seal.
Lorenzo:
Yeah. Hailey: Yeah.
Lorenzo:
And we'd been through so much over the last few decades and all this sort of internal evolution, we needed an external reflection of that.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Lorenzo:
So in order to uh, move us forward, we reached back and we created a new label based on the very first label we ever did. But we didn't want to make a retro label, we wanted to like have something that brought us into the modern era.
Doug Shafer:
And so I'm looking at the 1977 and finally he's going to show me the new label.
Lorenzo:
There it is, there is the reveal. I know.
Doug Shafer:
The reveal. Oh, that's beautiful.
Lorenzo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Some type, you got the flower blown up, that's beautiful.
Lorenzo:
Yeah, yeah. So it's got this very sort of modern, crisp feel.
Doug Shafer:
Modern, crisp, but it's still a throwback to the original.
Lorenzo:
Totally, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's beautiful.
Lorenzo:
It's, uh, you know, that whole, we did this with the reconstruction of the winery as well. We really embraced the, the legacy, the things that had been built.
Doug Shafer:
It's gorgeous.
Lorenzo:
Now moving into the future.
Doug Shafer:
And the separate back label just rolls to it. That's cool -
Lorenzo:
Yeah, it's a three point.
Doug Shafer:
And I love this color capsule, this cream color. It's just beautiful.
Lorenzo:
Yeah, and every, every detail, I mean we could go on for way too long, but one of the things that I really love is the bright green bottle that we found.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Lorenzo:
Again, to reflect the bright wines that we make and just these wines of vitality and, and really like, uh, I've been using the word tension recently. I love that to describe the wines that we have always made.
Doug Shafer:
Beautiful. Congrats you guys.
Lorenzo:
Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
So if people want to find Trefethen wine, where do they go? To the wine shops or- Hailey: Well the best is to come see us. That's the best place is to come see us.
Lorenzo:
Napa Valley. Hailey: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Come to Napa Valley's to come see this beautiful building they're in.
Lorenzo:
Yup. Trefethen.com, which will be getting an upgrade as well-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Lorenzo:
...early next year. Um-
Doug Shafer:
So you can order wine right on order wine right on the site.
Lorenzo:
Wine there. But we're also distributed throughout the US, um, mostly in restaurants.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Lorenzo:
But your favorite retailer, especially those great fine wine retailers can get our wines and uh, uh, even internationally as well.
Doug Shafer:
Great. Hey, well you guys, thanks for coming in. This is exciting. Thanks for showing us the new, the new, the new reveals, very new.
Lorenzo:
Thank you for having us.
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, say, say hi to mom and dad. Hailey: We will.
Doug Shafer:
All right. Take care. See you guys.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Taste. Doug Shafer with another episode. Really excited today I've got a long-term friend of mine who, uh, we've known each other a long time, but have not spent enough time together. In fact, I was thinking about it this morning, I don't know a lot of this guy's story. He's a food, wine lover. Our paths have cross forever. He's currently the executive wine editor of Food and Wine magazine and Travel and Leisure. I, I've see him in New York. I see him in Aspen. I see him in Napa. Mr. Ray Isle. Welcome Ray.
Ray Isle:
Doug, thanks for having me. This is great.
Doug Shafer:
I also was thinking this morning, I was trying to remember, we've known each other 20, 25, 30 years. When-
Ray Isle:
I-
Doug Shafer:
... did we first meet?
Ray Isle:
I think, I think we met, it's a little vague, but I'm, I'm pretty sure we met when before I was writing full time when I was, when I was freelancing as a journalist and working as a supplier rep for Dow's and Graham's ports.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Ray Isle:
And I think we met at a, either a wine or a lobber, um, sales event-
Doug Shafer:
Oh-
Ray Isle:
... 'cause you were with-
Doug Shafer:
I was with Winebow.
Ray Isle:
... you were with Winebow, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
In New York.
Ray Isle:
In like '90, somewhere between '98 and 2000. So probably at the Winebow harvest, you know, fair.
Doug Shafer:
At the harvest tasting thing.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Funny.
Ray Isle:
And that's, that's a while back now. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
But then I know we definitely hooked up when you were working with Josh Green-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... at Wine and Spirits.
Ray Isle:
So I left, I, I worked for a couple of years, um, doing, being a wholesale supplier rep-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... selling port, which trying to haul- haul a bag of, and a bag of port around New York in August and walking to stores-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
... (laughs), and saying "You want some port?" And the guys that look at you like, "What are you, you lunatic? Go away."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Ray Isle:
It taught me a lot about sales. But then I, I left that job too because Josh Green had read something I'd written and he hired me full time as an editor at Wine and Spirits magazine. And I-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... was there for five years at- at, um-
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Ray Isle:
... and it was great, it was a great place to work.
Doug Shafer:
Super. Well let's start. I gotta start all the way back. So-
Ray Isle:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
... born, born and raised?
Ray Isle:
I was born and raised. It's true. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
I was, I was born and raised in Houston, Texas. Um, my, my dad was a professor, um, at Rice University. And I grew up in Houston, uh, not in a wine drinking family. There was, there was certainly beer around. I remember that my, my father was really thrilled the first time that Coors was available East of the Rockies.
Doug Shafer:
Mine was too.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
We used to, Chi- sorry, I'm jumping in, Chicago-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... 'cause he, he'd take us out to Colorado to ski.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
He was, he was just ski bum, so he'd- he'd drag us out to Colorado. And lot of times we went with him and a couple of the dads and just the kids, they'd always bring an extra suitcase and they fill it with-
Ray Isle:
And fill it with-
Doug Shafer:
... Coors beer and bring it back. And he kept it in the basement. It was just like gold.
Ray Isle:
Yeah. The same-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
... damn near the same thing. My dad, he didn't, 'cause he was a teacher he had summers off, we'd go camping in Colorado.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
And he'd literally load up the back of the car with cases of Coors and we'd come back. And then suddenly it was available and it was, it was, then there was, I mean it's hard to imagine now, but there was this kind of murmur of it's going to be available, you know, in Texas-
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.
Ray Isle:
... at some point soon. And uh-
Doug Shafer:
Well same thing in Chicago. Well this is, well here's, you know, we were talking before we came in about business and, uh-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... Think about that, 'cause I remember Coors was like, you know, you can't get it. It's, it's-
Ray Isle:
It was this-
Doug Shafer:
... gold. It's, it's, it's-
Ray Isle:
It was a regional specialty of all things.
Doug Shafer:
... So this, this image and the desire for it-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and the minute you expand it and go nationwide, all of a sudden it's readily available-
Ray Isle:
And then-
Doug Shafer:
... the, the thrill-
Ray Isle:
... then it's kinda like, it's yet another-
Doug Shafer:
... the thrill is gone.
Ray Isle:
... yeah, it's yet another, you know, yet another can of beer. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
But it, it's, it's, it's funny that- that sort of, you know, the romance of scarcity is a really interesting, and this applies a lot to wine obviously too.
Doug Shafer:
It does, it does.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Maybe I should shut down five or six states and make it a little tougher to get.
Ray Isle:
There you go.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Ray Isle:
That's an idea. Just, just cut people off now and then to make them-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
... make them, make them hungry-
Doug Shafer:
I'll run that by my-
Ray Isle:
... or thirsty.
Doug Shafer:
... my sales team and see what they say, they're not gonna like that. Um, brothers and sisters?
Ray Isle:
I have one brother.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
Um, none of us are in Texas anymore. My brother is outside Philadelphia. He's a musician and, and runs a, uh, a bicycle shop too as well.
Doug Shafer:
Cool.
Ray Isle:
Um, so different path than me. And I live in, I live in New York City, which is where Food and Wine is-
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Right.
Ray Isle:
... is based, part of Food and Wine based, part of us, weirdly part of the magazine is down in the Birmingham, Alabama and part of it's in New York.
Doug Shafer:
Interesting. Wow. That's a, that's a-
Ray Isle:
Yeah. Well the short version of that is 20 thousand square feet of test kitchens.
Doug Shafer:
Aw.
Ray Isle:
The rent, the retail cost of 20 thousand square feet of test kitchens in Birmingham, I, 100 bucks a month or whatever it is.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
(laughs). And then in New York it's, you know, really, really expensive.
Doug Shafer:
Hundreds and thousands. Yeah.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
So.
Doug Shafer:
So, and your mom when you were kid?
Ray Isle:
So my mom, um, my mom was a pro-, she taught ice skating. She was a professional.
Doug Shafer:
She taught ice skating in Houston, Texas?
Ray Isle:
Ice skating in Houston Texas, yeah. She, she had been a competitive ice skater, um, in up at Connecticut where she was from. Went to Stanford met my dad there, they got married, he got a teaching job in Houston, she came down. I think first few years, she occupied herself raising me and my brother.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
Eventually she was like I gotta get away from these two.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
And, and started, you know, sort of part time and then, and then, you know, fairly full time freelance teaching ice skating, which in Houston was a very weird thing to do.
Doug Shafer:
That's pretty wi- so I gotta ask you did you skate?
Ray Isle:
I skated, I did.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
I even played hockey briefly.
Doug Shafer:
But was it, so you were more hockey than triple axles.
Ray Isle:
Yeah, my brother went more towards the, the jumps and spins and I went more towards the, the whacking a puck around with a stick.
Doug Shafer:
Hockey in Houston. I just love it.
Ray Isle:
It was, it was, yeah, the Houston Aeros. They, the team launched when I was there and they had got, they got somehow got like Gordie Howe from, you know, Canada-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... to come down and play for the Houston Aeros.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, I didn't know that.
Ray Isle:
I mean that sort of twilight of his career, I think. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I remember growing up in Chicago Gordie Howe was the big-
Ray Isle:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
... cause I was a Blackhawks fan and all that.
Ray Isle:
Yeah, he's a big deal. I don't think the Aeros lasted very long-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
... because Houston- Houston's not a talk, hockey town. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Um, so wine wasn't a big part-
Ray Isle:
No.
Doug Shafer:
... of the home scene but what about food?
Ray Isle:
Food was, I mean my mom was a pretty good cook. It wasn't, you know, this is the '70s and-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... and it wasn't the restaurant and chef world wasn't like it is now-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... with sort of star chefs-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... and they weren't, you know, the, I think the only TV shows was Julia Child and The Galloping Gourmet.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
Um, but she did cook and, and liked food and we ate, we ate good food.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
My dad, when she started teaching of course, then my dad cooked sometimes. Basically it was a series of hamburgers or chili, canned chili, or hamburgers or canned chili-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
...or hamburgers and canned chili.
Doug Shafer:
I know that drill.
Ray Isle:
(laughs). Yeah, so. But, um, I don't know. I, I got, we had a neighbor, I had good friends who lived down the street and, and my friend's mom was a quite good cook and I remember hanging out in the kitchen with her and, and, and just kind of helping out occasionally. And there was something about it that got me into food as an, as an idea. I, I had zero clue that I was ever going to end up-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Ray Isle:
... in this world, uh-
Doug Shafer:
But there was something.
Ray Isle:
... Yeah there was something. And, and it's, you know, that, that, that early sense of, of flavor and that, some stuff actually really does taste way better than other stuff. Um, I think probably was, I probably got that pretty early on.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
Um, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Well again that's I, I'm, I was kind of curious. I was wondering if there was something. So there was something.
Ray Isle:
Yeah. There was something.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
And then it, and then it took a while. You know, I went to college as, as one does, and then I went on to grad school and I was, I was headed down the same path as my dad, I was headed towards being an academic. Um, I got-
Doug Shafer:
Uh, back, I'm going to back up.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
High school, how well was high school in Houston?
Ray Isle:
High school in Houston, college in Houston.
Doug Shafer:
Sports, Sports activities? Nothing?
Ray Isle:
No, I was not a sports guy.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
I- I ran occasionally-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... but you know, um, I, I was, uh, I was a music head. I mean, I'd spent-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Ray Isle:
... a lot of time listening to music, um, loudly in my room.
Doug Shafer:
I gotta to ask you, you know, growing up in Texas, because you know, I've known you for a long time, where I first met ya I would never have guessed that you came from Texas because, you know, there's that stereotypical Texas thing.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I mean, what was that like? You were like living in that or was it...
Ray Isle:
Well, I was, I was-
Doug Shafer:
... Houston was different?
Ray Isle:
... sort of tangential to it 'cause my, 'cause, 'cause my dad was a college professor. I mean it's not like we were out on the farm with the cows-
Doug Shafer:
Right. (laughs).
Ray Isle:
... you know. Though he did later in life actually buy a farm out- outside Houston in Schulenburg. He sort of, he sort of morphed into a Texan.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Ray Isle:
I mean he grew up in Eastern Washington, which was a fairly-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... country area.
Doug Shafer:
Country and farm land.
Ray Isle:
My mom grew up in New Haven, um, in a university town, you know, um-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Ray Isle:
... I, I think part of it is that, you know, like when I, when I left Texas after college, I mean I still had a, I had a Texas accent I said y'all and all this kind of thing. Um, I'd been gone for a while.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
It's kind of, it's kinda been trimmed out. If I go back there, my, my accent starts to change a little bit. The more I stay it- it- it sort of heads towards a little bit more Texas accent. And it's, you know, it's, it's funny, it, um, it's a great place to grow up and it's, and it's a state with a ton of character-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... and has a lot of personality and I'm, I'm quite happy to come from there. I don't always agree with-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Ray Isle:
... some aspects of my home state, (laughs) but it, I probably retain some inner Texan-ness.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Ray Isle:
You know I still, I still own some cowboy boots, you know? It's (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Well-
Ray Isle:
You know they hand them to you at birth if you're in Texas.
Doug Shafer:
... everybody, everybody's got cowboy boots. You gotta have cowboy boots.
Ray Isle:
Yeah. Yeah, so. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But so, so you stayed, you went to Rice where your dad was teaching.
Ray Isle:
Went to Rice, yeah. Was an English major, did a lot of theater, went off to grad school. Well, no, I should rephrase that. I went off to Austin to be in a really crappy band for a year and a half.
Doug Shafer:
Well you mentioned music I was going to ask you about this.
Ray Isle:
Yeah. So-
Doug Shafer:
You were in, you were in a crappy band.
Ray Isle:
I was in a crappy band.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, come on.
Ray Isle:
Yeah, I was in, I was a DJ at, in college and in a band or two all bad.
Doug Shafer:
Well-
Ray Isle:
Um, I mean loud-
Doug Shafer:
Loud.
Ray Isle:
... and fun. I mean I mean it was a blast.
Doug Shafer:
What cha, what cha, what cha play? What - ?
Ray Isle:
I was rhythm guitar and lead singer or lead shouter as the case may be.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
I mean this is sort of the punk era too. So, you know, it was a, it was a, um, you know, I think everybody should be in a band at some point. It's a, it's a blast.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
But I, one, one thing I learned, so we moved to, we sort of on the band en masse, moved to Austin to be a band.
Doug Shafer:
And this was after college?
Ray Isle:
This is after college. Did that for about two years. Sort of realized we weren't that good. And one thing you realize is that like the, all the, all the stuff you hear about band problems like the, you know, the drummer's a psychopath and the guitarist-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
... like wants to play louder than everybody else and you know, then the bassist is sleeping with a drummer's girlfriend and all that, is that happens in famous bands and it happens just the same in really awful like post-college bands.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
And so you have dysfunction and you're playing kind of crappy clubs. And I was working, I mean I was working actually at the Sheraton 800 number to pay the rent and then like doing music stuff at night.
Doug Shafer:
I love, really, the Sheraton 800 number?
Ray Isle:
(laughs). Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I love it.
Ray Isle:
Sheraton reservations this is Ray can I help you?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Oh wow, wow.
Ray Isle:
So you know, cause that's-
Doug Shafer:
I probably, I probably talked to you.
Ray Isle:
... that and there were a lot of music people in Austin that time who worked the Sheraton call center 'cause it was-
Doug Shafer:
Well so what, what years was, what years were you in Austin?
Ray Isle:
This would've been late eighties this is, this is like '80, '88, '89.
Doug Shafer:
Okay well I'm, I'm traveling late eighties, I'm traveling to Austin to sell wine.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Because back then for us it was tougher for us in the big cities. We weren't that well known-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and we ended up selling wine in secondary markets.
Ray Isle:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
The majority of our wines. Columbus, Ohio, I mean I used to go there all the time. Austin, Texas, you know, Chicago, New York, we couldn't break into-
Ray Isle:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
... you know, in a big way. But I remember going to Austin late eighties. It was, I just loved that town.
Ray Isle:
It, It was a fantastic place to hang out.
Doug Shafer:
It was so cool.
Ray Isle:
Yeah. And it, if you, um, you know, it, it, it was, you know, there's, there's this longterm Austin thing about, you know, keep Austin weird.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
It really was weird at that point.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughs).
Ray Isle:
They were, you know, it was, it's gotten fancier over time-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... and it was still pretty scruffy and kind of, you know, there was a fantastic music scene.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
Um, there was a lot of really good Tex Mex food.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
I mean, I- I wasn't, certainly wasn't going to high end places at that point.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
And it was a blast. But I about, you know, about a year into it, I was like, well, I, if I, I could do this for a long time and I will be in Austin in 20 years in a bad band-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
... you know, working in an 800 number call center and maybe this is not the- the future. So I, I applied to grad schools and literature and-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, great.
Ray Isle:
... and I ended up going off to Boston University-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... on a creative writing fellowship and I picked Boston because it was as far in the continental U.S. in terms of for like, uh, culture and distance as I could go from Texas.
Doug Shafer:
Well I was, I was aware that you went to Boston.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So you got your master's in Boston?
Ray Isle:
Got my master's in Boston. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay but I was thinking about that going from Houston and Austin to Boston was like, what was that? I mean A) you got the weather, B) you've got the cultural thing.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Because the Boston New England thing, there's a thing there.
Ray Isle:
Oh, there's a thing.
Doug Shafer:
You know there's a thing-
Ray Isle:
And it's-
Doug Shafer:
... and it's not good, it's not, it's not necessarily good or bad, it's just, it's a thing and it's, it's unique to that area.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
My experience. And so you rolling in there-
Ray Isle:
Yeah, rolling in there and, and, and we lived, um, me and four roommates lived in this hideous apartment above a fortune teller in-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
... on the basis of a place called Winter Hill, which is on the Somerville Medford border.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
And it's, it's basically where Whitey Bulger used to hang out.
Doug Shafer:
Oh. (laughs).
Ray Isle:
(laughs). So, so it was a really cheap apartment. It was a pretty rough, at the time and I mean it's much more gentrified now. It was pretty much relatively, you know, there was still kinda tough Boston aspects.
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah.
Ray Isle:
And you know, the, the, you know, there was, there was some skepticism about any college kid walking down the street, (laughs), and, and it, and it was just also just such a radically different culture. I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Ray Isle:
... you know, I remember a couple of things. One, I remember walking into the, at the time like I said, I did have a Texas accent and I walked into the local sandwich shop-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... called The White Sport weirdly enough. I don't know why it was called the White Sport. And I said, "do you all have something?" And like literally everyone in the place looked at me like, "who are you and what are you doing in our town?" (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
And you know, I thought, okay, (laughs), this, I feel a little conspicuous and-
Doug Shafer:
So you were probably 20, 24, 25. Something like that?
Ray Isle:
Yeah, I was, I was probably, yeah, around right around there. And I did finish that, um, degree at well and, and then from there I moved to D.C., um-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... helped run a rare bookstore, uh, in D C., um, weirdly enough, um-
Doug Shafer:
This is after your, after your?
Ray Isle:
... after- after the master's.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Ray Isle:
Yeah work, well I was writing fiction and trying to figure out how to become a novelist.
Doug Shafer:
So you arrive, so yeah, so yeah-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... so that, that, at this point the plan is I- I'm a writer.
Ray Isle:
Uh, yeah at this point the plan is I'm a writer, I'm gonna write novels that will-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
... sell enough to support me.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
That is very bad plan. I will just point out.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, come on now.
Ray Isle:
You know. Well, writing novels is not a bad plan, but writing novels that you expect to support you is not necessarily a good plan.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
Um.
Doug Shafer:
All right.
Ray Isle:
But then, you know, going into wine making is not necessarily a good plan either.
Doug Shafer:
Agreed.
Ray Isle:
You know, um, so I moved to D.C., but I ended up sort of meeting a girl and staying together with her even though she was still in Boston. I used to take the train up and she was working at a, at a, um, she was actually in grad school in- in Providence at that point and worked at a high end restaurant called Angels, which is closed eons ago.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
And I remember going up a couple of times and sitting at the bar and waiting for her to get off work. I'd take the train up, you know, and- and to go see the girlfriend. And the guys at the bar be like, you know, "have glass wine, try this, try this." And-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... and that was, that was the beginning of-
Doug Shafer:
Is that when it started?
Ray Isle:
...That's kinda when it started.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
That's kind of when, it's kinda when, I mean up until then I kind of just, if you drank anything, you drank, whatever. It's like you get out of college, you drink beer.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
You know there's a, there's a Miller light, you drink a Miller light-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... cause it's there, you don't want to give it a whole lot of thought. And that's the first time I started like giving any kind of thought to wine.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
And also started thinking, Oh this stuff's pretty good. And then I stayed in D.C. and that, and that girl who I'm no longer for a long time have not been involved with-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Ray Isle:
... but she moved down, we lived together for a little while and, and the, one of the big transition points from my life as a wine person was we went out to dinner with her father at one point to a restaurant called Restaurant Nora. And he ordered a bottle of '84 Diamond Creek Volcanic Hill, which probably had, I mean this- this is probably '89 at this point-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... and I-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... and I remember sitting at this table ostensibly talking to my girlfriend's father and, and my girlfriend, but basically sitting there drinking this wine thinking, what is this stuff? This is amazing, you know? And-
Doug Shafer:
So you can remember that?
Ray Isle:
... vividly, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause this, you know, people will ask me, "where was your moment? What was your wine?" I don't, I don't have one. I don't have the story like that.
Ray Isle:
Yeah. I, I, I vividly remember it and I remember, and it's often, you know, you know this feeling where you get to the end of the glass and you're like, man, there's, that's it, there's no more?
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
You're kind of like trying to, trying to take smaller sips, is it starting to disappear? And you know, the bottles empty. And I know, I remember it, you know, to this day and it, uh, and it really got me interested in wine. I mean-
Doug Shafer:
You can remember it was, it was Diamond Creek Volcanic Hill '84 vintage.
Ray Isle:
... Diamond Creek Volcanic Hill. It was 1984 vintage, which I had about, and it was on the Nora list.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
It probably was fi- it, there was more older wine floating around-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... kind of, I don't think there was kind of this rigidity of, of current vintage. And so I started looking at, cause I were working in a bookstore, I started looking at wine books.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
I remember I went out, I couldn't find Diamond Creek and I probably couldn't have afforded it actually-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Ray Isle:
... but I found like a Freekmark Abby Bosche-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... from the same year for 19.99-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Ray Isle:
... which is what it costs back then, which is tells you something. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
And I remember buying it, taking home, trying that. And, and my girlfriend who was living with me also had a little bit of wine knowledge from her restaurant career.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Ray Isle:
So, um, so I started going to Calvert Woodley. I started talking-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, in D.C. yeah, yeah great- great store.
Ray Isle:
... yeah, talking to guys, you know, do you have, what can I try? I mean-
Doug Shafer:
You're the guy hanging out on the weekend talking to the wine guy in the store.
Ray Isle:
Talking, talking to the wine guy.
Doug Shafer:
Saying, "What's, what's new? What's cool?"
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And- and that's their job. They love it. So they're like, they're like-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and someone like you walks in, they're like-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... you know.
Ray Isle:
And I, but I was like the what's new, what's cool, I've got 20 bucks. You know?
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
But, but at the time, 20 bucks could get you-
Doug Shafer:
It could get you some good wines.
Ray Isle:
... it could get you, could get you, um, it could get you, you know, Ridge Geyserville, Freemark Abbey, it could get you, you know, good Crozes-Hermitage, it could get you, you know-
Doug Shafer:
24 bucks could, could get you ‘88 Hillside Select.
Ray Isle:
... it, there you go.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
Which is kind of mind blowing.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
And he should've sold me some Hillside Select.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
Bastard. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
It was on allocation.
Ray Isle:
Yeah. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Well that's great.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So that's how it started.
Ray Isle:
That's how it started. And then-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... you know, fast forward a couple of years, I got, I got a fellowship to, um, another writing fellowship to Stanford, a thing called a Stegner Fellowship.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
Um, which is a, a writer in, it, it's sort of like a graduate write, a graduate school writer and residence thing. And I'd-
Doug Shafer:
So you're at Stanford. You're actually writing and you're teaching too?
Ray Isle:
And I was, I was teaching as a lecturer for a few years.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
So I was Stanford for five years, all totaled, um, 93 to 98.
Doug Shafer:
What were you, I was curious, so what were you teaching? You’re teaching creative writing?
Ray Isle:
I was teaching, I was teaching, um, creative writing to undergrads.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
And um-
Doug Shafer:
That must of been kind of fun.
Ray Isle:
... and a short, and a short story class as well.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
And it was a blast. I mean, it- it's, there's nothing, there are lots of things about academia I don't like the in-fighting and the politics-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Ray Isle:
... and that kind of thing. And a little bit of the, the, there's a weird having grown up in it, there's a weird kind of like stasis to it that you stay the same, you get older and older and the kids stay the same age.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
Which is weird cause you're always teaching 19 to 20 year olds and you're sort of gradually getting-
Doug Shafer:
Gradually older and older and older.
Ray Isle:
... older and older. Which, which rubbed me oddly. And, but the thing I did love about doing that was teaching.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
And teaching, teaching smart students about literature was a blast. And one of the things I still love doing with wine is teaching wine classes.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
It's, it's, you know, it, uh, wine class is a little different because you've got like an hour class, you've got 45 minutes before everybody isn't paying attention anymore.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.
Ray Isle:
So.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause you're tasting wine.
Ray Isle:
But, but I was fortunate because... so I was, I was hanging out at Stanford, um, and, and writing and, and teaching.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
But I was into wine. So I was buying wine, you know, once a week I'd go to K&L down, you know, nearby and, and buy something-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... what- whatever it'd be. You know, I was sort of exploring the wine world and, and then I started hanging out at wineries, you know, I mean, not really even hanging out, just driving up to Napa and tasting or driving up to Sonoma and tasting.
Doug Shafer:
So you'd come up from Stanford, you'd come up to-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... Napa and Sonoma and-
Ray Isle:
Yeah, drive up for the weekend with a, with a friend or, you know, whoever... there were some girlfriends, (laughs), you know, it's a great place to go with a girlfriend. You know?
Doug Shafer:
So this, so this was like, this was like a major interest, major hobby.
Ray Isle:
It was a major hobby.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
And, and what's interesting is it- it probably wouldn't have become such a major hobby, it certainly wouldn't become a career if I'd gotten a writing fellowship at Iowa or Michigan or Texas or any other school. I happened to get one in the Bay area, which put me close to wineries.
Doug Shafer:
And, and, and, and that-
Ray Isle:
And-
Doug Shafer:
... and that time period was when things were busting loose around here.
Ray Isle:
Oh yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It really, it really were, it really were.
Ray Isle:
It was. And, and what I found out, I actually found it out from a guy at K&L as there were a couple of salespeople that, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
... would- would tolerate, you know, some random 26 year old with 20 bucks, you know?
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
And, and he's like, you know, "You, you can, you can work bottlings for some of these small, really small wineries and they'll, they'll pay you in wine." And I, and, and I was like, "well, I don't need, I mean, I could use cash, but I'd really rather have wine that I can't afford."
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.
Ray Isle:
So I used to, um, work, I worked bottlings a couple of times. This is mobile bottling stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Ray Isle:
And I worked bottlings a couple of times for a guy named Duane Cronin in the Santa Cruz mountains who made-
Doug Shafer:
I know the name, yeah.
Ray Isle:
... Yeah, he made lovely, um, really lovely Chardonnay, Santa Cruz Mountain Chardonnay.
Doug Shafer:
Working in a bottling truck.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Ray Isle:
Or, or slapping or, or putting bottles into a box or-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... you know, you work all day-
Doug Shafer:
Or capsules on. Isn't-
Ray Isle:
... and then you get paid in six bottles of wine-
Doug Shafer:
... Yeah but isn't bottling just when you're working the line isn't it the most tedious thing in the world? It drives you crazy.
Ray Isle:
It's, it's really tedious unless you only do it one day out of the month.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, okay. There you go.
Ray Isle:
Then it's kind of-
Doug Shafer:
But when you do like six days in a row on a run let me tell you.
Ray Isle:
... then it's, and it, and it's yeah, no and then it's different. But I also worked, I came up and, and, uh, helped like did the same thing for Nils Venge at Saddleback.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, Nils. Okay.
Ray Isle:
Um, so I have some old Saddleback sitting in my cellar so that I've got paid in, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Well that was his own winery. He started Villa Mount Eden.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Years ago.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Great winemaker. And then he started his own label, Saddleback.
Ray Isle:
Saddleback.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, okay.
Ray Isle:
And then now his son is, is a pretty sig-
Doug Shafer:
Kirk. Kirk Venge. He got a-
Ray Isle:
... you know, very pop, well-respected consultant.
Doug Shafer:
I need to get him in here. I should get those, both those guys in here.
Ray Isle:
Nils has some amazing stories.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah I know he does.
Ray Isle:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
I've, I've heard 'em in a bar.
Ray Isle:
Yeah. Yeah. So, so, and- and as this is going on I'm- I'm kind of like, I, I'm sort of got this tea-, you know, the, the academic teaching thing going on and the, and the wine thing going on in. And the, the more I start doing the wine thing, I start thinking, I really like this world.
Doug Shafer:
Interesting. Okay.
Ray Isle:
And so what happened then was I, I basically forced myself on Clos LaChance Winery, which at the time was up in the Santa Cruz mountains in the old Saratoga Springs facility.
Doug Shafer:
Clos LaChance, yeah.
Ray Isle:
Um, you know, it's sort of like we don't, we need an intern. Well I'd really like to work for free.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
And so I worked harvest, um, '97 and '98.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
Uh, as a, um-
Doug Shafer:
Just a grunt.
Ray Isle:
... volunteer cellar rat-
Doug Shafer:
Cellar grunt, yeah.
Ray Isle:
... like hosing, you know, hosing out everything that could be hosed out.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
Scrubbing things, cleaning, and despite the fact, and- and you remember '97 was, was a huge harvest. Um-
Doug Shafer:
That's the-
Ray Isle:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
... that's the year I rented tanker trucks.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And parked them here to use as tanks.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause I was out of tanks.
Ray Isle:
Yeah, and, and so, and the Clos LaChance model was that the guy who founded it was an HP executive.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
And he had this idea that, um, which was a pretty smart idea, that there are all these, and it's probably still the case, their all these Silicon Valley execs and up to the Hills there who have these-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... have might like a one acre vineyard in their backyard.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
And then he would help them plant it and then he would take the fruit and that would be, you know what, that would be some of the fruit that was coming into the Clos LaChance pipeline.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Okay.
Ray Isle:
And-
Doug Shafer:
Smart.
Ray Isle:
... which is, which is great except in a year like '97 where there's just a super abundance of fruit. So it's just like-
Doug Shafer:
Just keeps coming.
Ray Isle:
... this onslaught of Pinot Noir.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
So I did a lot of punching down in macro bins. Um, but I really loved it. I mean, it was, it was, I sort of moved my teaching schedule where I could work there full time during the harvest. And, and I kinda just fell in love with both. You know, I'd already kind of fall in love with wine-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... but I fell in love with the, the world of wine too, just the people, the, the, the whole thing. Um, you know, the smell of, of-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, the fermentation during harvest it's just fantastic.
Ray Isle:
... fermentation and, and it's, as it turns out, I now know it's a great education as a wine writer to work a couple of harvests because you learn so much, so fast about just the, the way aromas shift over- over fermentation, the way what, what, you know, freshly crushed grapes smell like, and then you smell it on the bottle, and, and what that transition is.
Doug Shafer:
You know I, just it's funny, you funny you bring that up-
Ray Isle:
It's-
Doug Shafer:
... that you, because you had that experience it just makes you... and someone that doesn't and the write about wine, it's, it's no, no big deal, but there's no way they can relate to it. But since you've had that, if you and I were tasting a wine something I made-
Ray Isle:
Right. Right.
Doug Shafer:
... and I'd say this and that and you're coming at because, 'cause you, you have a feel for what goes into that.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And it's, it's-
Ray Isle:
From, from start to finish.
Doug Shafer:
... Yeah.
Ray Isle:
Which, and I feel very lucky about that. Um, you know, I, I-
Doug Shafer:
Interesting. Good.
Ray Isle:
... it was really fortunate th- that I got that chance and I, and I kind of did the, I kinda did the internship one cause I was curious, but two I thought, you know, maybe I can write something about this. I'll write an ar- you know, I, I was writing pretty regularly for the Stanford alumni magazine.
Ray Isle:
I just thought, you know, I'll, I'll do something with this.
Doug Shafer:
That's right, so meanwhile you're still writing.
Ray Isle:
Still writing, yeah, still writing.
Doug Shafer:
And are you publishing anything?
Ray Isle:
Published short stories in quarterlies here and there.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. All right.
Ray Isle:
I was working on a novel, which has not seen the light of day and will not see the light of day. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
I mean it, it's got a, you know, it has its points, but it, it structurally just was a mess, so.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
And I think looking back, I think I'm probably a journalist rather than a fiction writer. I mean, I love writing, but I like facts. I like learning new stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
Um, and I, and I was figuring out at the same time I was falling in love with the whole world of wine that wine as a subject to write about is pretty cool because it's- it's not just, you know, tastes like blackberries and 93 points.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
It's, you know, it involves cultural history, it involves economics, it involves agriculture, it involves, you know, um, you know, unique personalities, it involves really interesting personalities. It, you know, it's, it kinda covers, you know, it's, it's either art or artisanship. Um, it's, it covers kind of the whole world nexus of things you could write about.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
You can come at it any direction you want.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, you, it's true because I'd like to see more-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's part of the reason I do this.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I'm getting stories from people. I get now, now I know, now I, I find out where they came from and what they do and what their interests are and it's like, Oh, that's why they kind of do this when they make wine and they do that.
Ray Isle:
Yeah. And I think, I think it's vital. I think that's, you know, it's one of the problems I have with the sort of critical structure around wine, which is the, the, the point score and the, the wine right up.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
Is that it, it, it eliminates the story behind the wine. It boils down some adjectives and a point score, which, and the, and the story and the people behind the wine is what I find, and the story of the place is at least with real, you know, let's, you know, you could have manufactured wines that are an industrial product for sure.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.
Ray Isle:
And that's like they're not that different from Coca-Cola. Um, but with, with actual wine that comes from a place and it's made by-
Doug Shafer:
People.
Ray Isle:
... people and who have, uh, who have some kind of vision, you know, that's a, that's a big part of the wine for me. That's, that's part of why it's exciting and interesting. And it's why it's like I always, I always feel like if you, you know, if you can just as a consumer, if you can go to a region you love, you should go there cause you'll, you'll understand the wine so much better just by walking around a few vineyards and talking to the people live there. Whether it's Napa or, or Piedmont-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
... or, or you know, Rioja or whatever.
Doug Shafer:
Wherever.
Ray Isle:
So-
Doug Shafer:
So, so the wine bug's kicking you big time.
Ray Isle:
(laughs). Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So most people when they get the wine bug, you know, they'd go to Fresno State-
Ray Isle:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
... or UC Davis and get a, you know, cellar job or-
Ray Isle:
Yeah, or-
Doug Shafer:
... or you know, and, and start, you know, making wine.
Ray Isle:
Well, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But, but you didn't-
Ray Isle:
I didn't.
Doug Shafer:
... do that.
Ray Isle:
No.
Doug Shafer:
You didn't do that.
Ray Isle:
I thought I was gonna move to Napa or Sonoma-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... and work for a winery and maybe in, in some kind of, you know, marketing-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
... context or whatever. I did, I didn't have the, the scien- I didn't think I had the scientific background to do, I mean, I would have had to have, you know, gone to UC Davis and done a lot of like-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... backup work in, in chemistry and biology-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
... and so on. But what weirdly what happened was I met my now wife, um, at a, her cousin married my cousin basically.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay.
Ray Isle:
Got set up at the rehearsal dinner. We're sitting next to each other. It's like you're single, you're single. Okay.
Doug Shafer:
A wedding set up.
Ray Isle:
It was a total wedding setup. And it worked. And, and they aren't even married anymore, but we're still together. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
So, um, but, but she was in New York.
Doug Shafer:
When was this? What year?
Ray Isle:
This was, this was '90, uh, '98.
Doug Shafer:
'98 so you were, you were still-
Ray Isle:
Well no, well we met in '97.
Doug Shafer:
But you were, so you were still in Stanford but working up-
Ray Isle:
Still in Stanford.
Doug Shafer:
... working wine, working at - right.
Ray Isle:
Working wine stuff, thinking I'm going to move up to Napa, Sonoma, I meet this girl. Um-
Doug Shafer:
She lives where?
Ray Isle:
She lives in New York.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
She has a great job in New York. She does not see necessarily the wisdom behind leaving her great job in New York to move to California, to a guy who, with a guy who wants to be in the wine business-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
... and who isn't even necessarily saying let's get married. Just like kind of like be cool if you were here and I don't have a job.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
'Cause I'd kind of decided at that point I wasn't going to pursue teaching anymore.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
I didn't, I didn't, the whole sort of pursuing tenure track-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... academic job. One, it was going to take me out of wine. Um-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... and two, it was gonna realistically in academia, Stanford doesn't hire from within, so I was going to be in Duluth or God knows where working.
Doug Shafer:
Sure, yeah.
Ray Isle:
I'm trying to get worked my way up the ladder and I just thought I don't want to be in that world. I want to be in the wine world.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
But, so I met her and then we- we were going out for a little while. I was very excited about it 'cause I-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Ray Isle:
... fell in love with her. And um, and... in a weird series of meeting people, a friend of mine who was, um, in the Stanford writing program, had another friend... it, it ended up with me being at a dinner party with, um, a guy named Peter Scott-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... who, um, worked for Premium Port Wines, which is the Dow's and Graham's, the Symington family.
Doug Shafer:
Out of New York.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
And we were chatting and he's like, you know, I- I- I said something about getting in the wine business and said something about having, you know, trying to figure what I was doing 'cause my girlfriend was in New York and he's like, "we actually have a, you know, we have a supplier rep job open in, in New York, the New York sort of Northeastern area."
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
"We've been looking for someone who has an educational background who really likes port." And I'm like, is this like a setup, (laughs), you know, 'cause I, cause I actually love port-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... and, and I, I was voluntarily drinking port at the time. Um, and I had an educational background. 'Cause they wanted someone who could explain this stuff to account people.
Doug Shafer:
That's true. Because... when you pour a port people are like, "Huh?"
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
"What is this?"
Ray Isle:
Yeah what is this.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
And when you the nuances of, of Tawny versus, versus Ruby versus vintage versus late bottle vintages, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Late model vintage, right.
Ray Isle:
And so essentially I applied for the job and they hired me-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
... and I was like, guess I'm going to New York to sell port.
Doug Shafer:
So, boom.
Ray Isle:
So, boom.
Doug Shafer:
So you're, so you're from California back to New York. You're how old?
Ray Isle:
I am-
Doug Shafer:
That's funny.
Ray Isle:
... at that point I'm what?
Doug Shafer:
So it was '90's?
Ray Isle:
35, 34, you know.
Doug Shafer:
So it was '99. Something like that?
Ray Isle:
'90, uh, I got there and I mean I started working for PPW in '98.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
So, and zero sales experience.
Doug Shafer:
Oh my gosh.
Ray Isle:
You know, I mean like literally zero. And fair amount of port drinking experience, tons of educational experience and not much New York experience.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Ray Isle:
And so, um, it was, it was educational. Um-
Doug Shafer:
And selling port in the summer.
Ray Isle:
Selling port in the summer, selling port in the winter, selling... and it, and port, you know, the, the, I now know, you know this, we would, you know, you'd walk in, you'd meet an account, they'd, they'd buy like, you know, four bottles of Six Grapes and you're, uh, six grapes and you'd be like, yes. Nailed it.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
(laughs). And then you'd talk to someone who was selling Pinot Grigio. They're like, "yeah, I sold 50 cases to the guy."
Doug Shafer:
50 cases today, I know. Oh.
Ray Isle:
Kind of like, this is an odd situation.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Ray Isle:
But it was, it, it was also, again, incredibly helpful. One because... and going back to what, you know, helps as a later on as a full-time wine writer, working in the business of wine is really helpful. It, it, I think it's easy to forget as a writer that the stuff has to actually be sold to people.
Doug Shafer:
It's a business.
Ray Isle:
It's-
Doug Shafer:
It's, it's a lot of work.
Ray Isle:
Yeah. And you can make an amazing wine and if you can't sell it to people you're going to go out of business.
Doug Shafer:
You're not making wine again.
Ray Isle:
You aren't making wine again.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
And you learn about, you know, how wine is priced, and why some wines sell and why some wines don't, and how that whole structure of the three-tier system works and- and everything. And it was, I mean sales is tough. I have, I have massive respect for people who are good at sales.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
I was not particularly good at sales. I can talk and I'm, I'm relatively friendly but I'm not like a shark.
Doug Shafer:
Closing a sale. I'm just blown away 'cause I, I've traveled with a lot of people, you know-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... did sales calls-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and I, I don't know how they do it, but all of a sudden it's the end of the, at the end of this, you know, session with the wine buyer I'm sitting there doing the Doug Shafer thing-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and this whoever the rep is says, you know, says, "well, you know, can I put you down for three cases?" And it's like, I'm like, Oh wow, how did he do that? And then the guy says, "sure."
Ray Isle:
Yeah. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
And I go wow how did they do that?
Ray Isle:
Yeah. And, and, and you're like, that's, that's wild. And it's, and the guys who or gals who are really good salespeople, that's a both a personality and a talent.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
I mean, it, it's a, it's funny, in the, in the magazine world where I am now, we've got the edits, editing side and the sales side.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
And the edit side is, um, basically if you, if you're at a party, the salespeople are the fun people, but they're also kind of the dangerous people. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs). That's-
Ray Isle:
So the editors are great to talk to, but they're calmer, you know.
Doug Shafer:
They're calmer and they kind of keep the ship, ship on an even keel.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Good, good point.
Ray Isle:
Yeah. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
But you know, I love hearing your story because you've got this, you know, interest in wine and then you've got some, you know, experience with production, which gives you that and now you've got experience with the business of selling.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And kind of this background, it's all leading to where you know where you're going to keep going here. But it's kinda-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... it's kinda cool.
Ray Isle:
Well it was, I mean at the time I, I still didn't have any real clue how I was going to get the writing and the wine to, to-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... to merge. And I was, you know, I mean sales is fascinating. I remember working with like, you know, the, the Italian account guy, you've probably worked with the same guy for, for Winebow -
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... in deep Brooklyn and, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... you'd show up at these, you know, in Bensonhurst and so on, you'd show up, you count, you'd have an espresso and you know, he-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... he'd talk to the guy in Italian sell some wine, you know, you show up at next account having espresso, sell some wine, next account happens, espresso sell some wine. You know, we called on one sports, like what do you call, like a sports club-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... like a bar with some TVs with Italian soccer.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, sports bar.
Ray Isle:
And it's sports... well not even a sports bar, more like a sporting club-
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Sporting club.
Ray Isle:
... an Italian sporting club. You know and he talks to the guy and, and, and it's like literally like there's two old guys sitting on stools-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
... and, and one’s, you know, smoking cigars, despite the fact it's illegal at this point, smoke cigars.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
And we'd do like three espressos and he's like, you know, he'll take 13 cases of vintage port. And I'm like, (laughs)-
Doug Shafer:
Who takes 13 cases of vintage port?
Ray Isle:
... vintage port. And this is a place that like maybe sells one Moretti a day. And I said, "well, are you sure?" And he's like, "yeah." I was like, "well, what does he need with 13 cases?" He's like, "don't ask."
Doug Shafer:
Oh, wow.
Ray Isle:
(laughs). So.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Ray Isle:
So it was like-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... okay we're gonna have an espresso. And by the end of the day you've had like 19 espressos and-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... your, your, your brains are about to explode. But, um, it was a fascinating education. But what eventually what happened was I wrote something, I mean I'd written some wine pieces for Stanford alumni magazine.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
Um, and, um, first thing I ever published about wine was for Stanford alumni magazine about Stanford alums in the wine business.
Doug Shafer:
Perfect. Yeah.
Ray Isle:
There you go. But I wrote, it actually wasn't even a wine story. I wrote a profile piece about an author, um, uh, Larry McMurtry. And Josh Green is not a Stanford alum, but he had someone on staff who was and I think at the West Coast office and they read this story and my bio said Ray Isle works in wine in-
Doug Shafer:
In New York City.
Ray Isle:
... New York city for wine import in New York city. And he actually, I think he reached out to me just to find out who I was cause he liked, cause he liked, really liked the profile.
Doug Shafer:
And this, this is Josh Green who founded Wine & Spirits mag-
Ray Isle:
Who founded Wine, Wine & Spirits, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... magazine. Okay.
Ray Isle:
And we met up, um, I met up with him and with Tara Thomas, who's still his sort of-
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah, Tara.
Ray Isle:
... right hand person and we just got along really well. Originally, I was talking to him about doing freelance stuff and, and it pretty quickly turned into an editorial job offer-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Ray Isle:
... and which was exactly what I wanted to do, you know, to was to, to combine the writing and the wine into one job. So I'm, I'm kind of forever grateful to Josh. Thank you Josh. You know for that. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. So you walk, so you walked away from selling port.
Ray Isle:
I walked away from selling port to writing full time about wine, writing and editing full time about wine. What was going along, along with this was, you know, the thing about being in the business is, you know, when I was selling port I was also going to trade tastings and so on and, and even though my portfolio was port, port, Madeira, I -
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... Madeira was in there.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
But when you go to like the Winebow harvest tasting, you can taste 150, 200, 2000 different wines.
Doug Shafer:
From all over the world.
Ray Isle:
So I was tasting everything I could possibly taste.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
And then when I went to Wine & Spirits, because Wine & Spirits scores wines, you know, ala the Spectator and Enthusiast we would do, you know, we would do tastings for, for the, you know, critical part of the magazine and you'd do 40 McLaren Vale Shirazes in the morning and you do 40 McLaren Vale Shirazes in the afternoon.
Doug Shafer:
I was going to ask you about that because-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... I bet you were like in just heaven because all of a sudden you get to taste all these different wines.
Ray Isle:
Yeah, and it's, it's, that was like graduate school education in wine. I didn't, I didn't ever do any of the MW or MS-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Ray Isle:
... or any of that stuff because I didn't, I kind of didn't need to because I learned so much at Wine & Spirits so fast. Um-
Doug Shafer:
'Cause Josh was just a, you know, he- he's a wealth of knowledge.
Ray Isle:
He's a wealth of knowledge. He's a great taster. And, and that, and we were blind tasting. So you know, you, you, you do Australian, you know, McLaren Vale Cabernet-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
... then you'd do you Australia, whatever issue it would be, then, then you know, Australian Barossa Cabernet, then Australian, Western Australian Cabernet, and the next week you'd be doing Chianti and you do, you know, Chianti Classico, Chianti Rufina, and you know, and it's, so, it was this ongoing immersion in, in the character of wines from certain places and also in what was good and what was not good.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
And 'cause you're doing it blind, you also learning that what should be good is not always what's-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
... good and vice versa.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
So that was a blast. I mean, I, I loved being, I was at Wine & Spirits for five years and I- I became Josh's number two, um, person pretty quickly. Um-
Doug Shafer:
So you're writing, you were writing wine articles-
Ray Isle:
I was writing articles.
Doug Shafer:
... reviewing wines.
Ray Isle:
I was the critic for Iberia-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... uh, for the Spanish and, and Spanish wines primarily.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
I was writing, I, writing articles about a bunch of regions. I was editing a lot of the content, so.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
And, um, but the, the hitch was that Josh owns the magazine and, and there was nowhere to go eventually. It was like, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... the only place up was Jo- was, was-
Doug Shafer:
Was Josh's job.
Ray Isle:
... owning the magazine-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... and Josh owned the magazine, so that wasn't gonna change. And so it sort of, I had to, I, I, I had started doing a little bit of freelance writing for Food and Wine. Um, and, uh, they offer me, they kind of wanted to expand their wine coverage. And so I talked to them and I, and I left Wine & Spirits for Food and Wine.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
Which-
Doug Shafer:
And that was in 2005.
Ray Isle:
Five.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Ray Isle:
And then, which, which Josh was probably suitably annoyed by, but that's what happens with employees.
Doug Shafer:
Oh that's, you know, that's what happens. It, it-
Ray Isle:
And we're, we're pals now.
Doug Shafer:
... Yeah.
Ray Isle:
You know that, we got over that pretty quickly.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Ray Isle:
And so I moved to Food and Wine and I've been at Food and Wine literally ever since, which is kind of mind blowing.
Doug Shafer:
14 years.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
Soon to be 15.
Doug Shafer:
Soon to be 15.
Ray Isle:
Which in the media world right now is, is weird. This people don't last in, well, some magazines don't last first off, and then, you know, the tends to be a lot of turnover. But I've, um, I've been very fortunate to have a couple of great, you know, editor-in-chiefs of-
Doug Shafer:
So you started at Food and Wine, '05, so you were just like, what was your, what was your first job there? Just a writer?
Ray Isle:
I was the senior, senior wine editor. I mean Lettie Teague was still there. So Lettie, so I was, you know, Lettie was technically my boss. Dana was, Dana Cowin was everybody's-
Doug Shafer:
Right. Dana. Right.
Ray Isle:
... boss. Basically Dana ran the whole place.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
Lettie was still there. I was, so there were, I mean this time of more staffing in the wine-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
... in, in the magazine world.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
Uh, more robust budgets. But then Lettie left in 2008-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... I guess, or 2009, one of the two and then I just took over being the, the head wine person. Um-
Doug Shafer:
And so you run the whole wine department. Are you involved in the food at all?
Ray Isle:
I run the whole wine department, which is a wine department of me and an intern at the bar. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs). Are you involved in the food and stuff?
Ray Isle:
You know, the thing about Food and Wine is that, that, um, I'm not involved in actual recipe development, but the idea generation of stories, you can't extricate food from wine in some sense.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
You know, most of the stories have some kind of food aspect as well. I do straight, I do, my column is kind of a straight wine recom- recommendation column.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
But most features that I do have, are- are either tied to, you know, whether it's, you know, a Christmas feast in, you know, in, in Emilia Romana or whether it's, um, you know, a winemaker who's also a chef, or whether it's, you know, just, you know, it can, it, food can play in, in all sorts of ways.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Ray Isle:
But I mean, the name of the magazine is Food and Wine.
Doug Shafer:
Exactly.
Ray Isle:
So, so there's a lot of, of trying to incorporate the two together. Um-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I want to go in, I wanna go back to something you-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... kinda touched on a minute ago because right about the time you started at Food and Wine, 2005, we were talking here the other day, it seems like, 'cause we knew you were coming in-
Ray Isle:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And back, you know, back in before '05 or so, you know, newspapers had, you know-
Ray Isle:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
... you know, weekly columns or two or three a week. And then all of a sudden bloggers came on the scene. Budgets got slashed.
Ray Isle:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
You know, you know, to make an living as a wine writer I think was really, really tough.
Ray Isle:
It's-
Doug Shafer:
And I think... and is it still?
Ray Isle:
It is extremely tough. I mean I think-
Doug Shafer:
What's your take on that?
Ray Isle:
... I mean, as I said, I've been very fortunate to have a home-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... a home for 15 years. This is more of a media question than a, than a wine question in a way.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.
Ray Isle:
So there's been kind of, what's happened is there's been a shrink, you know, print media has shrunk down.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
Like newspapers their revenue is small-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... or they've cut, like you said, they used to have every newspaper used to have a weekly wine columnist, that doesn't exist anymore.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
I mean the Chronicle has one.
Doug Shafer:
Just, yeah. On the weekend.
Ray Isle:
Times, you know, maybe a few others around the country, but newspapers have cut a lot of stuff. Um, print magazines are smaller than they used to be, though they're more robust than people give them credit for.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
Digital media is grown enormously, but the problem as a writer is that writing for online does not pay nearly as much as writing for print.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
And, and so, so trying to make a living as a wine writer right now is, is tough because you're the, the what you're getting paid per story, most of which is going to be digital is, is hard to make a living on.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Ray Isle:
You know, and it's, and it's a shift of the, of the kind of economics of the whole content creation world, let's say.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
And it's still possible, you know, but it's a, it's harder, it's much harder and easier than when, than when I got into it. I mean, I, I got in in a really good time-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
... in that the interest in wine in the U.S. has gone way up.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
I mean, you know, just compared to like '95 let's say, when I, I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
... you know, when I first started getting really getting into wine in California.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
I think the number of people now who are conversant with wine and really interested in wine and want to read it and get information about it is massively bigger.
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Ray Isle:
But the, and, but this, and then this goes for not just wine writing, but name you're kind of writing on a, on a topic. The venues for publishing your work, um, that pay well have, have shrunk dramatically.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
There's still plenty of places you can, you can publish online, but you know, ranges anywhere from you know we'll get you exposure by publishing with us online.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Well yeah.
Ray Isle:
Thanks that, that's great. Does the, you know, does the janitor who cleans the room get exposure? No, he gets a paycheck. So I'm a writer, give me a paycheck.
Doug Shafer:
Give me a paycheck. (laughs).
Ray Isle:
(laughs). You know, it's like, come on man.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
Um, and, but even, even, you know, pretty established digital places pay less than what was the going rate for print. And so it becomes, as a freelancer, particularly it's, it's just, it's a tough time. There's, there's a lot of interest in content, but there's not a lot of pay for the content.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
And so, uh, I mean, write, writing in journalism's never been an easy way to make a living, but it's, uh, I think it's tougher now than it ever has been. On the other end, wine I- I do think is, I mean, even if, you know, sales have dipped a little in the past year, I think the U.S. interest in wine.
Doug Shafer:
There's still a good interest.
Ray Isle:
It's still good interest. I mean, totally separate thing for people like you is that there's been this massive proliferation of wines in the market.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
That is, I mean, the, the-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah and, and-
Ray Isle:
... who you're competing against is like thousands of different brands.
Doug Shafer:
So there's lots to write about.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
I mean it's great as a writer- ... it's really not good as someone just trying to sell a bottle of Merlot, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Um, so besides Food and Wine-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and Travel and Leisure, you've done lots of other things. Um, you've done some C, the CNN blog.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And uh. Oh, hey, I got to ask you about this, 'cause I did see a couple of these shows. You did this thing with William Shatner.
Ray Isle:
I did. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Tell me about, you gotta describe to everybody what this was.
Ray Isle:
Yeah, so-
Doug Shafer:
It's called Brown Bag Wine Tasting with William Shatner-
Ray Isle:
It was William Shatner.
Doug Shafer:
... which is the Star Trek guy.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So tell me about this one.
Ray Isle:
Well, so William Shatner turns out, really likes wine.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. (laughs).
Ray Isle:
He, he created this online video series called Brown Bag Wine Tasting, where he would bring wine in a brown bag-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... either to a studio or to a restaurant or grocery store and he taste it with random celebrities and, and whatnot. And I can't remember if they, his people got in touch with me or I got in touch with them, but I grew up watching Star Trek.
Doug Shafer:
Sure. (laughs).
Ray Isle:
And, and it's like, I mean, literally, William Shatner is Captain Kirk-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... you know, come on. And, and so this opportunity came up and just the prospect of being on camera with William Shatner was so-
Doug Shafer:
Oh man, you gotta go.
Ray Isle:
... you know, it's like, I couldn't say no.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
And he's a, he's an odd dude. You know? (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
He's, and he'd, you know, he knows what he likes in terms of wine. He's not, he's not a wine geek. He's not like talk about the soil depth-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... or anything like that. And, and so it was, it's somewhat like this.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
Two people sit in front of a microphone, but then talking about the wine and, and, and Captain Kirk quizzing you, you know but for my mind as I know he's Bill Shatner, but it's like, it feels to me like Captain Kirk is quizzing me about what I like about this wine, which is so surreal. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
So it's, so it's a brown bag, it's a blind tasting.
Ray Isle:
It's a blind tasting.
Doug Shafer:
Did he pour it? Does he know what it is?
Ray Isle:
He knows what it is. Yeah. And he's like-
Doug Shafer:
But he pours your glass and then he, then he runs you through the paces. (laughs).
Ray Isle:
... Yeah. But it's not, it's not, but thankfully it's not trying to identify it as just like-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, thank goodness.
Ray Isle:
... do you like it? What do you like about it? And he wants you to use a metaphor to like describe what you like. Is it like a horse running through a field or is it like being slammed with a rock or whatever, you know.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
And, and we shot it in some random restaurant in LA somewhere. It was a, almost an unusual experience, (laughs), but I wouldn't give it up.
Doug Shafer:
How fun. How fun.
Ray Isle:
I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, I would of loved that.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That was great.
Ray Isle:
I mean, if my 12 year old self could have seen me like being on camera-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... with William Shatner his brains would have exploded. So-
Doug Shafer:
That's pretty cool.
Ray Isle:
... Yeah, so.
Doug Shafer:
Well good. Um, and what you've done a lot television.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Stanley Tucci, PBS, CNBC's On the Money, Squawk Box and-
Ray Isle:
The Today Show.
Doug Shafer:
... The Today Show. That's great.
Ray Isle:
Lot of Today Show particularly with the fourth hour with, I mean, Kathy Lee just, just retired basically, but with Kathy Lee and Hoda, which is a blast. I mean it's, it's not, um, I mean, Today Show is, is daytime TV-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... like it's not in-depth wine content. It's more fun wine content.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah it's gotta... and they don't give you a lot of time, right?
Ray Isle:
No.
Doug Shafer:
What's the, is it like crazy?
Ray Isle:
No it's about three, three and a half minutes is your average segment.
Doug Shafer:
Three and a half minutes.
Ray Isle:
To get through five wines, let's say.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, come on.
Ray Isle:
With two hosts who are talking the whole time also.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
And you've learned, you learn, you eventually, first you panic, and this is also-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... keep in mind with the Today Show your time is also live TV in front of about 6 million people.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.
Ray Isle:
So there's no redoes.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
Um, uh, I was very glad that I had done theater in college 'cause at least I knew how to kind of like talk in front of an audience and teaching actually helped with that too.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
But you eventually internalize, you internalize a clock so you kind of have a sense of, of your, of the pace of the segment. You talk fast, you talk in sound bites, you know, um, it's like, you know, this Shafer wine, you know, Hillside Select, it's one of the greatest, sought after Cabernets in California from this one tiny plot of perfect vines in Stags Leap District.
Doug Shafer:
Just, just bullet, bullet points, just-
Ray Isle:
And, uh, try it. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
What do you think? You know, and they are like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, you know, I, I think, you know, it's great wine. Is it, how much does it cost? $275.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
And they're like, Oh my God. And then you like on the other hand, let's try Prosecco.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
(laughs). So, and it really does move you through that quickly. And it's, um-
Doug Shafer:
Is it fun?
Ray Isle:
Oh, it's a blast.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
I, I'm, I'm a ham. I love, you know, being in front of an audience and it's, it's exciting. It, you, I mean, people are wired differently as we know.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
There are, there are unquestionably editors I work with who would rather be shot than be put in front of a TV camera.
Doug Shafer:
Understood.
Ray Isle:
And then there are editors like me who are like, Oh, cool, where's the TV camera?
Doug Shafer:
Where are the lights? Where are the lights?
Ray Isle:
Go towards the lights, you know. (laughs). I'm gonna burn myself up in front of them, but, it is a blast. It's, you know, it's, it's a, it's an adrenaline rush. It's actually you, you do slump after you do a segment. It's like you kind of like, okay.
Doug Shafer:
Interesting, wow.
Ray Isle:
And, um, and I got along... I mean it really comes down to whether the hosts like working with you or not. And Kathy Lee liked me for whatever reason. And so-
Doug Shafer:
Well, you’re a nice guy.
Ray Isle:
I'm a nice guy, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, come on.
Ray Isle:
... there's some people she didn't like, they didn't come back on the show but, but, but so they sort of, they booked me pretty regularly and have done for a long time. I don't-
Doug Shafer:
That's great. That's fun.
Ray Isle:
... I don't know quite what's going to happen with that hour now that she's off 'cause she was, the wine thing was, was sort of something she came up with.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
She was, she was into wine. She has her own wine, out of, uh, Central Coast. And, but I mean, she loves wine. She's actually got a surprisingly good palette. I was on there on one segment, that's the one time I actually like lost my kind of ability to know what I was going to say cause I was, they were blind tasting. It was like, let's do a blind tasting segment. And so they came out with like, you know, big pink, fuzzy-
Doug Shafer:
Oh they, (laughs) -
Ray Isle:
... blindfolds and so on and I, one of the wines I poured was, it was Domaines Ott, um, Rosé -
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
... and I, and I, you know, they picked up the glass and Kathy smelled it and she's like, "you know, this smells like Domaines Ott." And I was like-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, she just nailed it.
Ray Isle:
... and, and yeah she nailed it cause it was, you know, she, she spent time in the Hamptons.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Ray Isle:
It was the, one in the Hamptons at the time. But even so, I mean I really like was dumbstruck for about 10 seconds where it's like you-
Doug Shafer:
She threw ya.
Ray Isle:
... just blind tasted that wine.
Doug Shafer:
She threw ya.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's, that's pretty cool.
Ray Isle:
No she has, she's, you know, people would be surprised she's got a very good palate.
Doug Shafer:
Well thanks for sharing that.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's kind of fun. I mean it's just cool.
Ray Isle:
Yeah it's like I don't know what you do with it, but (laughs)-
Doug Shafer:
No I was curious because then, well when you're watching TV, it's like what's going on behind the scenes.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But um, what, you know, I don't see really any in depth wine shows. Does wine and TV does, does wine and TV not work? What would work with wine and TV you think?
Ray Isle:
Yeah, it's, it's a question I've, I've thought a lot about and I don't have an answer for.
Doug Shafer:
Huh, okay.
Ray Isle:
And there, and there haven't been a lot of good in, in fact almost no in depth wine shows that are good. The Somm movies have been hit or miss.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
I mean I think Jason's a good director.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
I think the structure of the first one's a classic structure where you've got, it's like, you know, there's a, I forget the high school basketball ones, the same thing where he's got five guys struggling for something-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... and one of them, two of them are going to make it, one's not.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
It's, it's like if you can get a narrative structure like that, you could propel the movie along whether it's about Somm, you know, blind tasting-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... a Somm's and trying to get an MS or spelling bees or you know. But the baseline problem with TV and wine is that TV's a visual medium.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
It's, it's not a verbal medium. It's, and, and wine, the basic actions with wine are you pick up a glass, you know, maybe swirl it and you sip it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
And that's, that's just not that interesting.
Doug Shafer:
It's either red or it's white.
Ray Isle:
It's red or it's white.
Doug Shafer:
Or pink.
Ray Isle:
And you can talk about it then, but it's, it's, you know, compared to a cooking show where you've got people running around and knives and fire.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, kni- you've got knives.
Ray Isle:
You got knives and you've got fire.
Doug Shafer:
Fire.
Ray Isle:
Yeah. And you've got, you know, and all this-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah and fire's bigger. You've got the, you know, something's, uh, you know, you're grilling something-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and, and, and the grease is popping.
Ray Isle:
And there's, and there's innately time issues and wine is not time-driven it's slow. It's, you know, the quote... you know and I can't take credit for it, but it's like the original slow food. It's, you know, wines on a different-
Doug Shafer:
I've never heard that quote.
Ray Isle:
... just a different schedule than-
Doug Shafer:
That's a great quote.
Ray Isle:
... Yeah, and it's on a different schedule than, than, than food is. I mean, not that agriculture, but then cooking. So, so the tricky thing with TV is it's like, it's a visual medium-
Doug Shafer:
It's a visual.
Ray Isle:
... you have to capture attention. So you've got two things with wine. You can do an in studio show where you've got people sitting around swirling glasses and talking.
Doug Shafer:
Oh boy, that sounds boring. That sound boring, yeah.
Ray Isle:
Or even do an on, on site thing where you've got lots of panning shots of vineyards and so on. But the problem is that no matter how beautiful wine region is, vineyards all eventually start to look the same on TV.
Doug Shafer:
And barrels look the same and-
Ray Isle:
And barrels look the same.
Doug Shafer:
... and tanks look the same.
Ray Isle:
And tanks definitely look the same.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs). And hoses look the same, yeah.
Ray Isle:
I know.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. It's kind of boring.
Ray Isle:
Yeah. As, as a wine writer, I'll tell you, every wine writer sort of dreads the, let's go see the tanks, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Oh, well that, we stopped doing it because, you know-
Ray Isle:
Thank, God.
Doug Shafer:
... we used, we used to give tours, you know, to our and we finally started doing some questionnaires and people said, "hey, we just want to taste the wine. We've seen barrels. We've seen tanks."
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I'm like, good, I'm with you.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But every once in a while there's one or two that want to so we take 'em over.
Ray Isle:
It's like, you know one, 2000 gallon stainless steel tank really looks a lot like the next one. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
So.
Doug Shafer:
They do.
Ray Isle:
But, so I'm still trying to figure out what the, there's an answer out there. There's a great wine show out there somewhere that has yet to be done. And I, and I, I still can't quite nail it. I did this show with Stanley Tucci-
Doug Shafer:
Hmm, yeah.
Ray Isle:
... for one season, which foundered on the, the, it was actually would likely have been renewed except the producers were the financial aspects of it were all a total mess.
Doug Shafer:
Was it, what was it? What'd you guys do?
Ray Isle:
We basically, he was the host and I was the wine host and it was, it was almost like a get some celebrities and a chef together and, and have a, um, dinner party-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... with wine and we talk a little bit, we'd have them blind taste wines and rate their favorites. But it was also about like what Broadway show you were doing right now and what the chef's restaurant was opening. So it was kind of a chat show with blind, with like blind, do you love it, do you hate it wine stuff and talking points.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
And it, it, I think if it had gone for another season and been refined to some degree, you know, people, that's one way you get around the problem of people like not doing nothing but swirling and, and talking is you get celebrities.
Doug Shafer:
Well, you got, you got-
Ray Isle:
People watch celebrities.
Doug Shafer:
... you got people telling stories.
Ray Isle:
Yeah, yeah. You got people telling stories and they're people that innately other people want to watch. I mean, you know, we had Julianne Moore on the show.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
I mean, I'll watch Julian Moore. I mean she's, she's gorgeous.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
And she's an interesting and funny.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
...you know? Um, so we had this whole range of people, mostly people that Stanley had brought in and it was a blast doing it. It just, it just, it just foundered on financial issues, you know.
Doug Shafer:
All right, well let's, let's, you know, we'll get together off mic here and brainstorm some ideas.
Ray Isle:
Let's do that. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's a good reason to drink a bottle of Cabernet together.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I'm with you. It'd, it'd be fun to see if what would work.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But, it's, it's a challenge, isn't it?
Ray Isle:
It is.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause it's visual.
Ray Isle:
But like I said, there's, there's, there's a great idea out there somewhere.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
It may not be me who comes up with it, but there is a great TV wine TV show to be done.
Doug Shafer:
We'll do it together. You and me.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It'd be our next gig. Um, so almost 20, well, 20 years writing about wine-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... wine and food for you. Um, I- I was thinking about you the other day, you know, you got the old, you know, what do you pair with turkey? Uh, what are you going to do for Easter? You know, and it's Mother's Day, it's Father's Day, the top 10 wines for Christmas. How do you, how do you stay engaged and challenged when you still gotta deal so- some of those things?
Ray Isle:
Um, yeah, I mean the, the, you know, the, the, the service, you know, the journalism kind of falls into service stories and, and, and longer, more interesting stories-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... and the service stuff, you know, yeah, I mean, what wine goes with turkey, I don't think I'm doing that one again. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
And then you do the, I mean, Thanksgiving is the classic. It's like what wine goes with turkey. Then you do the column that's, you know, well, in fact, ignore the turkey because turkey doesn't have any flavor you got to pair it with all the sides.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Ray Isle:
And then you do the one where it's like, well you can't actually pair anything 'cause you've got so many different flavors, so go with the wine that pairs with everything. And then you do the, you know, well actually you should have cider cause ciders, the original beverage of the Americas, you know, and, and I've done all of these. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
You've done them all.
Ray Isle:
You know, and, and eventually you just go like, I don't know man, open a bottle of wine and don't worry about it. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs). Just, just, just grab one.
Ray Isle:
But, um, the thing that keeps me going through the, the, the service stuff is that it's still exciting to find new wines.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
So, and the, the research for those service stories is tasting a lot-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... and calling and calling in samples, or going to tastings or whatever. And you know, it's still pretty cool to find... I- I actually particularly like finding affordable wines, you know, because-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Ray Isle:
... it's really great when you find something, whether it's, whether it's 15 bucks or 35 bucks that wildly outperforms. It's-
Doug Shafer:
It's, it's price point, yeah.
Ray Isle:
... it's category. And, and I think it helps me not having grown up either wildly wealthy or as a wine drinker. I still ... will kinda come at it a little bit as a- as my former self of-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
... like, you know, what- what's, you know, this is... let- let me find something I can actually afford that's really great.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
And it's, you know, it's finding a 200-buck wine that's good is not that hard.
Doug Shafer:
Agreed.
Ray Isle:
You know it... there are some that are better and some that are worse, but, you know, the number of really god-awful 200-buck wines is pretty low.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
But it's- it is really interesting to taste through 20-buck Chardonnays, and-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... once in a while you get one and you're like, "Damn, that's really good." And then you get... if you get enough, the- for our column, that's pretty cool. And it also... I- I do think it's helpful to readers. Like, people really do wanna know what to buy, and there's a lot to buy out there.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
And it's daunting. And it... And there's- there's no question in my mind that most of our readers and most people who are not... who are the average American wine buyer, walk into a store and look at a shelf of wines and are, like, "Oh. I have no idea, man." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I know, it's... No, I'm with you.
Ray Isle:
You know.
Doug Shafer:
It happens to me. I mean, that- because that's your service.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's where you-
Ray Isle:
I mean it-
Doug Shafer:
That's part of the... part of the gig for you guys.
Ray Isle:
Yeah. And it's... I mean it... particularly with categories like Chardonnay, for instance, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
Ah, and- and I- I used this analogy when I was in some store here. Or maybe it was a class. But, you know, it's a little bit like if you went into a store and there were 200... like a Total Wine, and instead it was Total Food... and you went in and there were 200 kinds of chicken soup, and they ranged from, like, $4.99 a can to-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... st- $179 a can-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) What-
Ray Isle:
And there were- there were 200 different brands, too, and- and you would look at that wall of chicken soup and you'd be, like-
Doug Shafer:
What-
Ray Isle:
... "This is insane!" (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Ray Isle:
And- and, "I just want some good chicken soup to drink, or eat, or whatever,"-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... and that's like looking at a wall of Chardonnay in a, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that's a great analogy.
Ray Isle:
And-
Doug Shafer:
I'm gonna use that one.
Ray Isle:
And it's one reason why people love point scores, 'cause it- it-
Doug Shafer:
It gives them something.
Ray Isle:
... it's- it really is... And it's not an- it's not a non-valid shortcut, you know. I mean I- I think consumers need some help with this whole thing.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
I mean, I- I always say first- first pl- plan of attack if you're a buy... a consumer buying wine, is find a good wine store where people actually know something and will talk to you, and- and so on.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
It's much... Pay the extra buck, you know. That's- that's how I got my basic first education in wine, was going to K&L-
Doug Shafer:
K&L.
Ray Isle:
... and talking to the guys, and it was great, you know. I'd say I got, you know, last- last time I was here, I tried this whatever, Zinfandel, and he went back, "Well, why don't you try this from, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Exactly, yeah.
Ray Isle:
... one from Southern Italy and see what you think." And that's- that kind of even baseline advice, it goes a long way. But, um, I for- ... I can't actually remember where I- where we started with this question (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
No, no, it was... My god (laughs).
Ray Isle:
But... It's, like, a long tangent (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
I can't- I can't- I can't either. No, but it... No, it's um, it's staying... Well no, doing- staying engaged and-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... you know, from this-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's- that- that's what we were talking about.
Ray Isle:
So- so that... Yeah. So if the service stuff, it's... And it's always, you know, there's s- sometimes it's, you know, biodynamics s- starts coming up-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
... as a topic, so you start tasting a bunch of biodynamic wines to do that, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Ray Isle:
Natural wine.
Doug Shafer:
Um, well that's the... But you nailed it. Part of your job's gotta be trends. Spotting trends.
Ray Isle:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
How do you do that?
Ray Isle:
Um, talking to people.
Doug Shafer:
Talking.
Ray Isle:
I mean, and reading everything you can, and going to tastings. I mean it's, you know, talk to sommeliers. They're-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, they're too good.
Ray Isle:
They're very on trend. Um, it- that's- the trick is sorting out real trends from little...
Doug Shafer:
Blips.
Ray Isle:
Flips.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
Natural wine, for instance, I think is a real- is a real and lasting trend.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
Whether- whether you like the wines or don't like the wines, there's n- I- that category is not going away-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
... and I suspect it's only gonna grow.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I'd agree.
Ray Isle:
Whereas, you know, not to pick on Canary Islands, but Canary Islands' wines were a- a- a- ... momentary flurry of interest in the New York somm world. There's just not- not that much wine from the Canary Islands. Some of it's wonderful, but it's not gonna be a major national trend in wine 'cause-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Ray Isle:
... only 1,000 cases come into the US.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
You know. So you kinda sort- sort these things out, but-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Ray Isle:
... but also, you know, when you, as a writer let's say, and you'll start talking to a somm, they're, like, "I'm super into the Canary Islands right now," you think well; talk to another somm and they're, like, "I'm really into Santorini," and you start thinking, well what about some kinda column on volcanic island wines, you know.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Ray Isle:
And you suddenly... then you're looking at course... you know, what, you know, Canary Islands, um, Santorini, Corsica, you know, Sicily, Mount Etna, you know; and then it starts to be-
Doug Shafer:
There’s a -
Ray Isle:
... coalesce into a serv- ah, a really good column.
Doug Shafer:
Column.
Ray Isle:
Then there's the 10-buck wines for grilling, which-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Which is another one.
Ray Isle:
Which is another one, and people really wanna know what 10-buck wines are grilling, you know (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
So are you- you traveling a lot for the job?
Ray Isle:
I travel a fair amount, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
I travel- I travel... Well I'm out here this weekend, for instance, for this Food and Wine-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... Best New Chef Reunion weekend, which is a- a series of consumer dinners and so on, which I... That's one thing I travel for, is events.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
So like our food... our class... the Food and Wine Classic in Aspen, I'm there every year; Pebble Beach Food and Wine.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, we... Yeah, I wanna talk about that.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That you've... Aspen... Food and Wine has been doing the Aspen festival in June for how many years?
Ray Isle:
Oh, 30...
Doug Shafer:
30?
Ray Isle:
Ah, 35 or 40. Oh, god.
Doug Shafer:
So that's gotta be, that's-
Ray Isle:
Yeah. Well we're- we're 42-years-old, so it...
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
Yeah, a long time.
Doug Shafer:
And that's a, it's a wonderful... Again, describe that event for some folks-
Ray Isle:
So-
Doug Shafer:
... that might not know about it.
Ray Isle:
So that event... So the Food and Wine Classic in Aspen is kinda the granddaddy of the wine and food festivals in the US.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
It started, you know, I- I should know, but I was gonna say 37 years ago-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... 34 years ago. It was originally 500 people, Ju- I mean Julia Child among them, gathering in Aspen to- to do some cooking demos and so on. It's now 5,000 people; we take over the entire town. It's a weekend of wine tastings, cooking demos...
Doug Shafer:
Wine sem-
Ray Isle:
... party-
Doug Shafer:
Wine seminars. Yeah, parties.
Ray Isle:
... up on top of the mountain, wine seminars. Um, ah, it's- it's great. I mean, Aspen in June is spectacularly beautiful. It's- it's a walk... It's a walking town, and the- the level of chefs we get in is astonishing. I mean it's like... It's- it is a great lineup of chefs, usually doing- doing demos and doing interviews and things. And then, um, the wine seminar is we do 20, ah, 20, 22 different wine seminars and-
Doug Shafer:
Wow, and are you in charge of all that?
Ray Isle:
I'm-
Doug Shafer:
Kinda?
Ray Isle:
I'm co-in charge of it-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Ray Isle:
... with- with the, our- our person on our marketing side who- who does all the logistics for the-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... for the thing. And then, um, and that involves... So we- we bring in outside speakers, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
... and, I mean, and, um, typically not winemakers; it's typically other journalists or- or sommeliers who- who talk about topics, and it can be any- really anything from you know, super rosés for the summertime, to a deep dive into grower Champagne, to, you know, the up and coming Napa superstars, you know. And- and people... I mean, it's great. People love it. And it's- and it's- it's a- a kinda idyllic weekend in the mountains, saturated with food and with wine.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
So what happens with Aspen is there's- it's a- it's a c- it's a consumer event...
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
... but because of the nature of the event, there are a lot of winemakers in town because there- we have a grand tasting tent.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
There are several hundred wineries in the grand tasting tent. That draws a lot of account and trade people, so, um, there's a- there's a kind of connected event, or overlapping event, which is the AMEX trade program in Aspen-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... which is a in- invite on- only thing for restaurateurs. I created a sort of secondary event within an event at Aspen called Somm Talks, which is a- a... and again, invite only... series of sort of higher-end, um, like let's take a deep dive into Grand Cru Chablis, and do 15 Chablis-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Ray Isle:
... you know, three different vintages from five different producers. So that's a sommelier event that's also in there. So it's- it's- it's both a consumer event and a trade event. I mean it's really a consumer event, but there are so many trade people and so many winemakers and wine buyers and sommeliers, and so on, that it- that it's- it's kind of two worlds over- overlapping; which is, um, which is fun.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, it's amazing. It's a great event.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know, I haven't been in a few years, but I used to go. I used to be on panels with-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... you know, Danny Meyer. I think one time we wanted to, what- what wine goes best with bacon, you know-
Ray Isle:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
... he'd create fun things. Kind of fun and loony things, but they were really cool.
Ray Isle:
Well, they're really cool.
Doug Shafer:
It was really fascinating.
Ray Isle:
And they're- and you can do a lot with a basic taste... I mean, I- I do a taste... I haven't done it in Aspen, but I do a- a potato chip and wine tasting, because-
Doug Shafer:
Aha (laughs).
Ray Isle:
... because with... Kettle chips is what I've done it with in the past, but if you get the- the basic Kettle chips, and then you get the salt and pepper ones, which are- have pepper on them-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... and you get barbecue, which is sweet, and you get the vinegar and whatever-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Ray Isle:
... which is sour, those chips actually work as a really great baseline, what flavors do to your palate and how they affect wine, thing. But it's really fun at the same time.
Doug Shafer:
It's fun.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But at the same time it's, like, "Oh, this makes sense."
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So if people wanted to... 'cause some folks might not know about the Aspen festival.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
How- how can they sign up?
Ray Isle:
Um, go to foodandwine.com-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Ray Isle:
... um, and- or- or actually just Google, you know, f- Food and Wine-
Doug Shafer:
Food and-
Ray Isle:
... ah, Classic in Aspen. That's- that's
Doug Shafer:
It's- that's the-
Ray Isle:
... and it'll- it'll... I mean, Google's like that, it'll just pull it right up.
Doug Shafer:
Well, it'll find ya.
Ray Isle:
Yeah. And it's always in June. It's, ah, it's the third weekend in June I think, so it's- it's Father... the same weekend as Fathers' Day.
Doug Shafer:
As Fathers' Day.
Ray Isle:
And it's Thursday through Sunday. You know, Thursday night through Sunday morning.
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Ray Isle:
And, um, and tickets go on sale... Oh, I think they go on sale in January?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I think they're out the first of the year.
Ray Isle:
And it does sell out-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... but it's- but it is a blast, right?
Doug Shafer:
It's a- it's a great experience.
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And Aspen in June, just can't beat it.
Ray Isle:
Aspen in June. I mean, I always build in a couple of days to go hiking, you know, on either side 'cause-
Doug Shafer:
I was gonna ask you that, too. With all this wine stuff-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and you've got food stuff-
Ray Isle:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and you're traveling, oh, how do you get away? What do you do? What- what's- what do you do for fun?
Ray Isle:
Um-
Doug Shafer:
You got anything?
Ray Isle:
Yeah, well I mean, I'm- I'm in the incredibly fortunate position that- that the thing that I do is also something I love.
Doug Shafer:
Mm.
Ray Isle:
So, um, it is fun. I mean, what I do is fun. But, you know, it's-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... it's- it's great fun to write about wine, and- and I- a lot of my best friends are people that I know through the business I'm in, you know. Um, I go to the gym so I don't fall over, you know, dead (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) That's-
Ray Isle:
I mean, it's- the job has made me rounder than I once was, that's for sure.
Doug Shafer:
That's a risk of our job, for sure.
Ray Isle:
Yeah. Um, you know I- I still maintain a c- connection to literature; I have a lot of friends who are writers-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Ray Isle:
... and- and I- and I certainly read a ton, and I love to travel. But honestly, most of the travel I do is- is tied to wine to some degree-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Ray Isle:
... but, you know, but I mean who can complain about going to Tuscany or going to-
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah.
Ray Isle:
... you know, Galicia in Spain. Um-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, got some free time.
Ray Isle:
Yeah. Um-
Doug Shafer:
I'm with ya. Good.
Ray Isle:
So.
Doug Shafer:
Mister Ray Isle-
Ray Isle:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... thanks for being here. If you don't know this guy, grab a copy of Food and Wine Magazine and look up his name, and reads- read what he writes. He's, ah-
Ray Isle:
Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
... he knows his stuff, so thanks for coming in.
Ray Isle:
Oh, thanks for having me, Doug. It was great to see you (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
All right. Be good. Thanks.
Ray Isle:
Okay.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Grapes all in? Got them done?
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah. Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
Our grapes are all in.
Shannon Staglin:
Yep. Been pressing tanks and, you know-
Shari Staglin:
Yeah. How about you?
Doug Shafer:
Good. Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
Of course.
Doug Shafer:
Nice year.
Shari Staglin:
You're earlier than us, I think you're west side.
Doug Shafer:
No, no we got done about 10 days ago. Took a while.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah, so did we.
Doug Shafer:
But um-
Shannon Staglin:
Good year though.
Shari Staglin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, nice year.
Doug Shafer:
All right, so we'll get this thing rolling here. Hey everybody, welcome back to The Taste. Doug Shafer with another episode. We've got a couple of good friends in here today. It's a mother daughter team. Shannon and Shari Staglin. These guys have been growing grapes, making wine in Rutherford for over 30 years. They got started just a few years after my dad got the Shafer going back in the mid- early 80s. Um, wonderful family owned winery. They are the real deal. They grow it, they make it, they sell it. And that's hard to come by these guy- days especially for over 30 years. So, first branch I think was 86, Shari-
Shari Staglin:
Correct. That's right.
Doug Shafer:
And Shannon. Welcome to The Taste.
Shari Staglin:
Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
How you doing?
Shannon Staglin:
Great. Thank you for having us.
Doug Shafer:
We got a lot of different stories today, I've got copious notes. But let's go way back to about your property. It's in Rutherford. What's the history? What's- doesn't it go way, way, way back?
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
How far?
Shari Staglin:
1864.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
Was when it was first planted by Mary and John Steckter. And we have no idea what the varietal was, but they put in 60 acres and they had another 300 and some odd acres of wheat. Wheat was the cash crop then. And by the 70s they were fully producing. They had their own little winery.
Doug Shafer:
This is 1870s?
Shari Staglin:
1870s. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Wow.
Shari Staglin:
But it was apparently lucrative enough for them that they kept it. But in those days the- all the old timers along the western foothills that came, a lot of them came out of Missouri, which was at that time the number two wine growing, wine making region in the United States.
Doug Shafer:
I didn't know that. Missouri-
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Back in the 1800s?
Shari Staglin:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
Second to California?
Shari Staglin:
Nope.
Doug Shafer:
Second to-
Shari Staglin:
Guess. New York.
Doug Shafer:
New York.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah, then.
Doug Shafer:
So New York and Missouri were one and two in the 1800s.
Shari Staglin:
That's right. In the mid-1800s.
Doug Shafer:
In the mid 18- what was California doing?
Shari Staglin:
It was just getting started through the Steckters.
Doug Shafer:
I'm looking at Shannon 'cause, you know, didn't you have more liberal arts than I did in college? You should know this.
Shannon Staglin:
Uh, I was an anthropology major.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shannon Staglin:
So I went a little further back to like the, the Wappo native Americans. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
There you go. Okay.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
We, we have a gap. Okay, so they were, uh, so the grow- so number two-
Shari Staglin:
Well so-
Doug Shafer:
Number three.
Shari Staglin:
The 1840s was a bear flag revolt.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
And then the 1850s we became a state.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shari Staglin:
And then people started migrating.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
And so they came out in covered wagons, and they staked their claims. And they started, they built the home on that property in 1864, which is still there. We've restored it. And uh, they had six kids there. Her brother and her father were both Shariffs of Napa County. And their son was the Shariff of Napa County. He built a house on the, uh, corner of Manly and the highway. And that house is still there. And um, and their daughter and her husband built a house halfway up Manly Lane, which is where Shannon is currently building a house. That was a Sears and Roebuck prefab.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shari Staglin:
Which, uh, was in not good shape at all. It had to be taken down. But John and Mary Steckter had six kids and they gave away a corner of their property to the county for a schoolhouse. Right on the corner of Neibaum and Highway 29, which is still there-
Doug Shafer:
The little-
Shari Staglin:
Today.
Doug Shafer:
The Kindness Schoolhouse.
Shari Staglin:
And Shannon's daughter and her son go to that school.
Doug Shafer:
Which is the co-op-
Shannon Staglin:
Yep, it's the co-op. Yep.
Doug Shafer:
The co-op nursery. Um-
Shannon Staglin:
The St. Helena Cooperative nursery school.
Doug Shafer:
Wow, this is, you know, that's what's so fun about this. So-
Shari Staglin:
And Mary died when she was 103.
Doug Shafer:
103. All right.
Shari Staglin:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
So that schoolhouse, when I was in high school in 1973 and ‘74 here in Napa, we moved out junior year. It was my senior year, there weren't a lot of options for me class wise. I was really interested in teaching. I went down, that's- before it was the co-op it was, I don't know if you know this, it was a school for handicapped kids.
Shannon Staglin:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
Disabled, mentally challenged children. Nursery- you know, nursery school age.
Shari Staglin:
Fantastic.
Doug Shafer:
So I used to student teach there two, two classes a day through high school.
Shari Staglin:
How great.
Shannon Staglin:
Very cool.
Doug Shafer:
And there was this wonderful lady who ran the program, Athena was her first name. She was just fantastic and just, and these- oh, it was great. And then, yeah later then my kids went to the co-op.
Shannon Staglin:
There you go.
Doug Shafer:
And now they're older, but your kids are going-
Shannon Staglin:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
To co-op, and there's- which is for kinda kindergarten, first, second-
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah, it's pre- pre-K. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Pre-K. Wow. And that all came from Mary Stedicker, Stedicker?
Shari Staglin:
Steckter. S-T-E-C-K-T-E-R.
Doug Shafer:
Got it wow.
Shari Staglin:
Good German name. German American.
Doug Shafer:
I love it. Okay, so then they, but they sold it, when did they- the Steckter family sell it?
Shari Staglin:
Well, um, they- they fell on some hard times and they- they sold it when her husband died. He was quite a bit older than her. And so, and her son was helping out, her oldest son. And then they, uh, ended up selling it to another family and it was, changed hands several times, but at Prohibition it was taken out.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
As most of the vineyards were in Napa Valley. And it was not replanted until 100 years after it was originally planted, almost exactly. It was planted in 1864, it was replanted in 1964 by Andre Tchelistcheff.
Doug Shafer:
Tchelistcheff planted. So he planted- well we're gonna get to that in a minute. But okay.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So that's the history. Wow. 100, so it was-
Shari Staglin:
But 1964 is the year Garen and I met on a blind date at UCLA.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
Isn't that something?
Doug Shafer:
That is something. Okay, we're gonna get to that because before we get to Garen, um, and Shannon we're gonna get to you, I promise.
Shannon Staglin:
That's okay. Yeah. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
But Shari, Shari goes first, um, Shari where were you born? Where'd you grow up?
Shari Staglin:
Uh, I was born in Heron, South Dakota, but I mostly grew up in Mitchell, South Dakota.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
But my family moved to southern California when I was 12. And then I ended up going to UCLA eventually.
Doug Shafer:
So what- what'd your parents do?
Shari Staglin:
My father was a machinist at night, full-time. And my mother was a secretary during the day at the, uh, aero craft industry.
Doug Shafer:
Cool. And-
Shari Staglin:
Aerospace industry.
Doug Shafer:
Wine- wine part of the home life?
Shari Staglin:
Absolutely not, we drank milk at all times.
Doug Shafer:
At all time- (laughs)
Shari Staglin:
Yeah, being from South Dakota.
Doug Shafer:
South Dakota.
Shari Staglin:
My grandparents had a dairy farm. And that's what everybody drank for dinner, milk.
Doug Shafer:
Alcohol involved? Wine, beer?
Shari Staglin:
Almost never.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
My dad- my dad's father, my grandfather was a, no alcohol. Teetotaler. Just wasn't allowed, even after dad came back from the war. He came in with a six pack of beer and my grandfather said, "Get that out of here."
Shari Staglin:
My grandmother-
Doug Shafer:
Then dad ends up making wine.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Shannon Staglin:
(laughs)
Shari Staglin:
My grandmother I remember making- her made- she made my cousin leave when he came in. He was in college, with a six pack of beer. And she made him leave.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah, she wouldn't have it in her house. And my mother always said, you can- you can have a drink, but a lady nurses one drink all night.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) I love it. So, UCLA and um, you enrolled in UCLA and that's where you met Garen, right?
Shari Staglin:
I did.
Doug Shafer:
Blind date, how'd that happen?
Shari Staglin:
I didn't have a date for the dorm party. I was a dormie. Um, he was in a fraternity. But I didn't have a date that night and I thought it was nerdy to go to a dorm party, so I didn't want to go. But I said to my roommate, I said, "You know what, I don't have a date tonight." She was in charge of the party. Why don't you get me a date. And it was the first time that dorm parties were allowed to have alcohol because it was off campus at somebody's parents' home. So um, she asked around and the first person she could get was Garen. And apparently he had just broken up with somebody. And I got a call in my dorm room. And he said, "Hello, this is Garen Staglin, I was just elected by a committee of five to be your escort for the evening."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Shari Staglin:
And I-
Doug Shafer:
Elected.
Shari Staglin:
Started laughing and I liked him right away. So, uh, we went to the party. And uh, we hit it off right away.
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Shari Staglin:
But there was a lot of ups and downs. We were only 19.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that's a long, that's a long road.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So Shari I'll jump to you, tell me about your dad, Garen. Where'd he, where'd he come from? Where'd he grow up?
Shannon Staglin:
So, he was born in Nebraska, uh, and uh, he says that he had the good sense to leave at one years old.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Shannon Staglin:
Uh, and uh, moved with his mother and father to southern California, to Long Beach. And uh, his father is originally from, uh, from Italy, Calabria.
Shannon Staglin:
So the last name Staglin used to be Stagliano.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shannon Staglin:
Uh, and it was, his name was Pascuali Stagliano, and he changed it to Raymond Staglin when he was naturalized. So, my grandfather is kind of where the interest in wine started for our family.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shannon Staglin:
Because being Italian, wine is a part of the family dinner table. And so- my dad grew up that way, and, and that's where his interest started. And then my parents met and my mom started learning about wine from my dad and, and his family.
Doug Shafer:
So, so when you guys were dating was it, was it wine or was it beer? Being in college it was probably beer.
Shari Staglin:
Well we were only 19.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Well that's right, you weren't legal.
Shari Staglin:
We were drinking beer as a matter of fact. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Of course.
Shari Staglin:
At his fraternity parties.
Doug Shafer:
Of course you were.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) So, um, you both graduated UCLA.
Shari Staglin:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And degrees, you were-
Shari Staglin:
I got a bachelors in international relations.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
He got a bachelors in engineering. Uh, electrical and nuclear engineering.
Doug Shafer:
And uh, what- did you guys get married right away? Or take a while?
Shari Staglin:
No, no. We didn't get married til three and a half years after we met.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. So what were you each doing, work wise?
Shari Staglin:
I went to work right away for the- I had always worked part-time during school. I worked full-time the first two years in junior college. And I went to work full-time for the university running the charter flight program for the, at that time I think there were only five UCs. And um, I wanted to go- I wanted to travel and I didn't have that much money. So, I figured I'd run the charter flight program and go for free, which I did. So that's what I did for a year. And I would visit Garen. He would want me to come up and say- see the place, and see Stanford. And he was at business school.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, he was at business-
Shari Staglin:
He went to business school.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. I got it.
Shari Staglin:
And I would come and visit, and then he would say, "Hey, let's go up to Napa Valley, we can drive up for the day.' And that was the first time we ever visited Napa Valley, and that was ‘66.
Doug Shafer:
In 66, so you guys weren't married but you came up, dating and whatnot and-
Shari Staglin:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
So were you getting into wine and-
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
The whole deal?
Shari Staglin:
We were tasting, there was only six wineries on the, on the highway then.
Doug Shafer:
Six wineries.
Shari Staglin:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Six wineries in 66 that could be a song.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. Okay. So, um, so you guys-
Shari Staglin:
Can you guess what they were? Oh, maybe you don't want to do-
Doug Shafer:
Six wineries, no, no it wasn't Mondavi. They weren't onboard yet.
Shari Staglin:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
It was uh, Louis Martini.
Shari Staglin:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Charles Krug.
Shari Staglin:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Beringer.
Shari Staglin:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Hang on. Oh, come on.
Shari Staglin:
Further north.
Doug Shafer:
Further north was, wasn't transferred yet.
Shari Staglin:
Clue is, it survived the Prohibition. It kept its vineyards.
Doug Shafer:
It survived prohibition-
Shari Staglin:
Christian Brothers.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, Christian- oh, silly me.
Shari Staglin:
It's now the-
Doug Shafer:
Now the CIA, how could- how could you miss that big guy?
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Shannon Staglin:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
And two more further south.
Doug Shafer:
Two more further south. You look at- you know, you're- oh, you're putting me on, I like this. You're putting me on the hot seat.
Shari Staglin:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Further south what was it, uh, the Trinchero Family? Were they-
Shari Staglin:
Wasn't, no they weren't here yet.
Doug Shafer:
They weren't here yet. 66, um, it wasn't Mondavi. Wasn't Cakebread. It was, oh man.
Shari Staglin:
It was a Finish ship captain.
Doug Shafer:
Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Rubicon- Inglenook.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah, that's it.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Shari Staglin:
One more.
Doug Shafer:
Give me a hint. I need to-
Shari Staglin:
Is our-
Doug Shafer:
I need to phone a friend. I need to phone a friend.
Shari Staglin:
It's our vineyard's heritage.
Shari Staglin:
Our vineyard was originally planted by Andre Tchelistcheff for-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, BV of course.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Gosh, I gotta remember that.
Shari Staglin:
You got them all.
Doug Shafer:
Jeez, yeah but I had to-
Shari Staglin:
You can take that-
Doug Shafer:
I had to phone a friend.
Shari Staglin:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Wow. That's great. So that was easy. Six wineries in an afternoon. Easy. You could do it all.
Shari Staglin:
We'd have a picnic. There were no restaurants.
Doug Shafer:
I do remember that. We came out in 73.
Shari Staglin:
Oakville Grocery.
Doug Shafer:
Oakville Grocery the original. Okay, so when did you guys get married?
Shari Staglin:
1968.
Doug Shafer:
68. And so you were living ...
Shari Staglin:
Uh, by then I had moved up 'cause I decided to marry him.
Doug Shafer:
Moved up to Bay Area.
Shari Staglin:
To the Bay Area.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
And I went to work for Lockeed and Missiles. Missiles and space company as a logistics analyst.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. And he was done with his MBA? What did, what did he start doing?
Shari Staglin:
Uh, well he was still getting his MBA that year. And then he did ask me to marry him.
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Shari Staglin:
And then we did get married in June that year.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
But we, but he had to immediately go into the Navy because of the Vietnam war.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
And he was in ROTC, so we knew that we had to go over, and we did.
Doug Shafer:
So what- you guys were stationed at different-
Shari Staglin:
I was in Japan. I lived there.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
And he was in Vietnam most of the time.
Doug Shafer:
I didn't know he was in Vietnam. Okay. Well, good so we have- you get through that and then you end up back in California at some point?
Shari Staglin:
We did after Washington DC and then New York and then California.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. And you moved to-
Shannon Staglin:
Lafayette.
Doug Shafer:
Lafayette.
Shari Staglin:
There was no Shannon yet.
Doug Shafer:
There was no Shannon yet.
Shari Staglin:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
And Shannon's still here.
Shannon Staglin:
I'm still here.
Doug Shafer:
We haven't forgot you. (laughs)
Shari Staglin:
She's a California girl.
Shannon Staglin:
Born in 79. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So, so you moved- gosh you just told me. You moved, you moved in 79 you moved?
Shannon Staglin:
75.
Shari Staglin:
75.
Doug Shafer:
75 you moved. Thank you. And um, 79 you were born.
Shannon Staglin:
Correct.
Doug Shafer:
So that was 79, so you were living in Lafayette. Which is a suburb of San Francisco.
Shannon Staglin:
Correct. Yeah, I think-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Shannon Staglin:
So the story my mom tells is that the day before I was born she was at the Chateau Montelena release party. True, drinking-
Doug Shafer:
The day before you were born. (laughs)
Shannon Staglin:
A glass of Reisling and dancing to a Dixieland band.
Shari Staglin:
At 10:00 in the morning.
Shannon Staglin:
Yes. (laughs)
Shari Staglin:
She came out very happy. And has been happy ever since.
Doug Shafer:
Look at you. So the wine thing was, as you, as you and your brother were, you know, little kids. You and, Shari you and Garen were doing the wine thing, big time obviously. Just, just loving it.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Just being wine lovers. Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
Well, we chose where to live because it was an hour from Napa Valley and it was two and a half hours from skiing. Those were two things that we really cared about.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
And so, we used to visit Napa Valley and Sonoma all the time. And we wanted to, we just really wanted to have our own vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Shari Staglin:
'Cause it was such a great dream. We loved the people here, we loved the wine, we loved the place. What a beautiful place. And eventually it worked out.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. So, Shannon you were born in 79, your brother Brandon was born-
Shari Staglin:
71.
Doug Shafer:
71.
Shari Staglin:
In New York.
Doug Shafer:
In New York.
Shari Staglin:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
So you guys are- do you remember Lafayette at all growing up?
Shannon Staglin:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. We lived there, uh, until I started high school.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shannon Staglin:
So we moved up here full-time when I started high school. Uh, so definitely remember Lafayette well. But you know, Napa we were here every weekend from probably since I was like, at least four years old. Uh, so Napa's definitely home. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
What was that like? They're dragging you up here every weekend? Did you guys have a place up here or were you just-
Shari Staglin:
I remember when she was a baby-
Doug Shafer:
Come up day trips?
Shari Staglin:
At Chateau Montelena and I was rocking here, it was a storm- it was a rainstorm and our friends were saying, "Oh, your- this is terrible to your baby. You shouldn't have her out in this, in this rain." And I was like, "Well, she'll be all right. She's gonna be fine." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, she's fine.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah, no I mean I think, um, coming here it was a different place then. I could run around in the vineyards or hide in the barrel room or things like that-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Shannon Staglin:
While they were tasting. So, it was uh, very kind of relaxed and, and agrarian.
Shari Staglin:
And Brandon was climbing up and down the rocks and the streams and-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, but did you guys like it or were you like, I'm- 'cause I imagine myself- well, I have my, remember my own kids at that age they were like, really we gotta go do this?
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I want to go play with my friends down the street. I want to go to the, the mall.
Shannon Staglin:
I think when I got to that age, like my parents we would bring- my friends would come up with us for the weekend, and you know, it was a fun getaway for them. And uh, kind of only an hour away, but you know, quite, quite different from life in Lafayette. So. It was the- my fourth, both third and fourth grade we had a, um, field trip to Napa Valley. So, the- my whole class got on, you know, the yellow school bus and came to Rutherford.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Shannon Staglin:
And helped pick grapes. And it wasn't child labor it was, you know, like (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Sure, no it was a-
Shannon Staglin:
Just a few clusters. Uh, but it was a great way to kind of learn about agriculture and viticulture and, and what it- what wine comes from right? And uh, the kids would explore the property, and we had an old cave that they would, you know, climb in and get poison oak and all that good stuff. So.
Doug Shafer:
So this was your place- this was your- so when did you buy your place in Napa?
Shari Staglin:
We bought it in 1985.
Doug Shafer:
85.
Shari Staglin:
In December. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
Okay. That's, and uh-
Shari Staglin:
It had never been on the market.
Doug Shafer:
But you moved, when did you move up here?
Shari Staglin:
We- we didn't move up here until 1993.
Shari Staglin:
Because we decided, we sorta got seduced into the wine business. We just wanted a little vineyard. And we would have a house up here, and then we would sell the grapes to other wineries.
Doug Shafer:
That's-
Shari Staglin:
But as I looked-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) That sounds familiar.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah. And as I, as I came up to look for a place, and at that time I was doing executive search and Garen was selling a business. But I started taking some time off work to come up here every day because the tax laws were changing from a tax shelter of, uh, depreciation over five years to, uh, 30 years.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shari Staglin:
So, we said well we're gonna have to do it in 85. And so, I started looking in June, no January of ‘85. And we didn't finally close on it until December 5th.
Doug Shafer:
So, the plan was just to have a little small little vineyard, house in the country, sell the grapes. That was- that was the-
Shari Staglin:
That was the original plan, but we slowly got seduced. Fairly quickly actually got seduced.
Doug Shafer:
I think it was quickly.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I know you.
Shari Staglin:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I think that was, I remember the story with my folks, because I think my mom was under the impression dad was gonna just be a gentleman farmer and sell the grapes.
Shari Staglin:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Actually that was my take too. And then within a few years, all of a sudden you know, I'm in college I hear that dad's starting a winery and it's like, wow. And not til many, many, many years later I was talking to him one time. I said, you know, "Wow, what was that like?" And he said, you know, you know, "How'd you figure out you wanted to make wine?" And he goes, "Well I kinda always did, I just never told your mom." I said, "Oh, oops." (laughs) So-
Shari Staglin:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
But similar story. So, you buy that, so you're absentee owners.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And farming grapes. So, were there grapes on the property?
Shari Staglin:
Yeah, it was fully planted.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
Um, it had been planted by, um, replanted from a prune orchard that had come after Prohibition. Replanted in ‘64 by Tchelistcheff for the granddaughter of Georges de Latour, Dagmar dePins who was that time the owner of BV.
Doug Shafer:
And so he- and he was the wine maker BV.
Shari Staglin:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
So he planted the property.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah-
Doug Shafer:
She owned it, he, he planted to-
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
For the grapes for BV Cab.
Shari Staglin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Well you couldn't have a better guy planting your grapes.
Shari Staglin:
I- I found out that later. And he did come to visit us.
Doug Shafer:
So did- yeah. Did you meet him?
Shari Staglin:
Oh yeah.
Shannon Staglin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And did-
Shari Staglin:
Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
Did you work with him, too? Did he work with you guys?
Shari Staglin:
He- he said he was under contract not to consult with anybody else.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Shari Staglin:
But um, he said he would come and talk to us as a friend, which he did.
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Shari Staglin:
He and his wife came out. And we- and he tasted through everything that we had made at that time. We hadn't made any wine until ‘86 'cause we had bought it after the ‘85 harvest.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shari Staglin:
And so, he tasted ‘86 through ‘91, no, that was April of ‘91. So, and he uh, he gave us his kind of recipe for where and when he picked the grapes, which, which acids, which pHs, et cetera.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shari Staglin:
And which sugars. And um, we were of course at that time picking much higher sugars than he used to do.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shari Staglin:
For his perfect wine. And so, we tried it. And the next year I told Celia, who was our winemaker at that time, Celia Welch, I said "Let's have David just not pick anything, half of this vineyard until such and such a date- or such, such sugars. And we'll pick the other part according to Tchelistcheff's standards." And we did that. And um, I really didn't like, I didn't like Tchelistcheff's standards.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Shari Staglin:
I liked- I liked our version better.
Doug Shafer:
Well yeah, styles change.
Shari Staglin:
I would like to add why Garen has never run the wine business and why I always have, and now Shannon.
Doug Shafer:
Garen's, oh help me with that so Garen's never, I always thought Garen was kinda running it.
Shari Staglin:
No.
Doug Shafer:
No, it was your baby.
Shari Staglin:
No way.
Doug Shafer:
No way he'd not listen to you.
Shari Staglin:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So operations, all these are, all these are yours.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You were running it.
Shari Staglin:
We own it together. And the children too.
Doug Shafer:
Cause he's got his own thing.
Shari Staglin:
He's got lots of other things going on yeah. Talk about energy.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
Yes. But when we bought the vineyard, the first thing, and we thought he would retire from working in other jobs-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shari Staglin:
And run the vineyard. And instead we've ended up getting a red leaf virus right away.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shari Staglin:
The, couldn't get the sugars up. Then we got Phylloxera. It was one thing after the other and we had to put so much money in to the vineyard to start re-planting it and getting nothing back, or very little back. And so, and you know how that goes.
Doug Shafer:
Yep.
Shari Staglin:
So um, I said "Honey you've got to start another business." So he did.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Shari Staglin:
And then I've always run it. So I left my work, I was doing executive search then in the city and then I left that and, and worked as, ever since then full time in the wine business.
Doug Shafer:
That's fantastic.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Well congratulations.
Shari Staglin:
And then Shannon luckily, cause I told both the kids "you cannot come and work for the wine business, we don't, we don't want you to, we want you to go out and do your thing what you love to do. This is what we love." And both of them ended up wanting to come back.
Doug Shafer:
Well...
Shari Staglin:
But I told them five years and so, it was, Shannon wouldn't listen to me and she came back immediately after college. Shannon: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I just don't understand why Shannon you wouldn't listen to your mother. I've known your mom for a long, long time I just don't get this. Shannon: Everybody in my family is a Capricorn except for me but I am a Taurus so... (laughs) We're all strong willed.
Doug Shafer:
So when you moved up here, Shannon. You were just starting high school.
Shannon Staglin:
Correct. Yeah, I you know, leaving, uh, all of your friends when you're in eighth grade is like your world is, is over. But it all turned out okay. (laughs) so.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, come on. How was it- it's, it's rough.
Shannon Staglin:
I mean it was, I was very scared and very emotional. But I, I went to, uh, Justin Siena.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shannon Staglin:
Which was a great school because it was smaller and also kids from a lot of different schools convened there. And so, it wasn't like everybody knew each other already. Uh, so and uh, they have great sports programs, and great academic programs, and so I definitely I think, uh, flourished, uh, in that environment. Um, and got to meet a lot of great new people. And I played basketball, and volleyball, and did well enough in school. So (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
That's great. And, and I think you're being a little modest. Basketball, I heard there's some records that you still own.
Shannon Staglin:
I think I fin- it finally got beaten. But I did have the season assist record for varsity basketball for a long time. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Way to go. Way to go. Well, I uh, I- when we moved out here I played basketball up in St. Helena.
Shari Staglin:
You did?
Doug Shafer:
I've got- yeah, I did, but, but I got no records baby. (laughs)
Shari Staglin:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
No, it was fun. It was middle- I moved out in middle of junior year.
Shannon Staglin:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
I was from Chicago. That was pretty wild.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah, I bet.
Doug Shafer:
But um, it was fine. St Helena was a small school. It was great, and people were really friendly. And um, so it was-
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And you know, playing sports helped a lot too.
Shannon Staglin:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Gets you going.
Shannon Staglin:
And Justin and St. Helena are rivals, so-
Doug Shafer:
Arch rivals.
Shannon Staglin:
So yeah. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I've got two, two of my kids went to Justin, so yeah.
Shannon Staglin:
Oh, okay.
Doug Shafer:
I've bounced all over-
Shannon Staglin:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
My- my allegiances are all over the valley. So you've-
Shannon Staglin:
That's good.
Doug Shafer:
You got done, uh, with Justin and then you off you went to-
Shannon Staglin:
I went to UCLA as well. Uh, so I graduated from UCLA in 2001 with a degree in anthropology. And despite my mom's wishes for me to go do something else, I wanted to come back to the wine business. I'll rewind in saying in high school of course I didn't want to have anything to do with the wine business, because what teenager wants to do what their parents do?
Doug Shafer:
Understood.
Shannon Staglin:
Uh, and, but after going away to college and having some distance and coming back home to Napa really kind of saw how, how beautiful it was, and you know, the, the romantic side of what my mom did. Of you know, traveling and meeting great people. And drinking great wines.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shannon Staglin:
And going to the, you know, the new restaurants. And uh, so I just, uh, I decided you know what, that's what I want to do. So, um, and I kept my, my focus on anthropology, mainly cultural.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shannon Staglin:
And when I came back I worked as an intern in our winery in 2001.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shannon Staglin:
It was when we were still kind of balancing between Napa Wine Company and our own caves.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shannon Staglin:
So, our, our caves took two years to dig out and build. And so, in 2001 our red wine production was still at Napa Wine Company but our white wine production was in our caves.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shannon Staglin:
And so I managed all of those Chardonnay fermentations, uh, Andy Erickson was our winemaker that year.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, great. Yeah.
Shannon Staglin:
So it was his first year at the winemaker. He came from Harlan where he was the assistant. And I was his first ever intern. So I like to wear that badge proudly. He's had a lot of interns since then. (laughs) But learned a lot about wine making, and learned that I didn't want to be a winemaker.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shannon Staglin:
Um, you know with a winery our size it can be somewhat of a solitary job.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shannon Staglin:
And anybody that's worked in a winery understands that like, 909% of what you do is clean things, especially if you're an intern.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Shannon Staglin:
But I just, I- I love being around people. And I love kind of a diverse set of responsibilities. And so I started working in our offices and did that until 2006. And kind of got to the point where I, I did national sales, I, I hosted events and tastings. I- I did all sorts of different things. And um, kind of reached my plateau of where I could get at that point before I started managing people that taught me what I was doing.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shannon Staglin:
So I went and got my MBA at UC Davis, um, from 2006 to 2008, and then worked in banking at Wells Fargo, um, for two and a half years.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shannon Staglin:
And then came back to the family business in a managerial role in 2011.
Doug Shafer:
Look all I, I remember- I remember meeting you 'cause it's kind of like, you know, you were the big trade tasting or consumer tasting, Staglin table and Garen and Shari aren't there, so I-
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's this other gal. It's like, well hi. I'm Dough Shafer. And hi, I'm Shannon Staglin. It's like, oh.
Shannon Staglin:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I didn't know you existed.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
It's been great. And um, but going back with you guys, the history of your winery. So, I think you- do you guys still use David Abreu?
Shari Staglin:
Yes, he was our original vineyard manager.
Doug Shafer:
You're original guy, which is he's one of the best. So, you've got great grapes.
Shari Staglin:
He's terrific.
Doug Shafer:
So wine making you custom crushed at Napa Wine Company for how many years? 10, 15?
Shari Staglin:
Well we were in one, two, three, four uh, four different wineries before we finally got our own caves.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Shari Staglin:
To make it in.
Doug Shafer:
That's- that's-
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's gotta be challenging I think.
Shari Staglin:
We were just- yeah, we were like gypsies trapes-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughs)
Shari Staglin:
Trapesing around. We'd the uh, the winery would get full up with their own wine and they'd kick us out.
Doug Shafer:
Sure, they'd kick you out. Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
And then the same thing would happen. It happened several times.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Shari Staglin:
And so, Napa was our, Napa Wine Company was our fourth. We'd been at, um, uh, first it was called Sunny St. Helena.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shari Staglin:
And later became Merryvale.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shari Staglin:
And so we made some wine there with Bill Harlan and Debbie Harlan.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shari Staglin:
When they were dating. Um, we picked our first ton together.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, fun.
Shari Staglin:
On our vineyard. And uh, we had no idea what we were doing in ‘86, but it, it turned out okay after several years. Originally it wasn't great.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
Uh, and then we, we after that we went to Sinskey, we got kicked out of there, then we went to way up in the hill-
Shannon Staglin:
Hess-
Shari Staglin:
Hess Collection.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
And then we-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah that's-
Shari Staglin:
Ended up at Napa Company.
Doug Shafer:
That's a drive.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Well good.
Shari Staglin:
But we finally got our own winery.
Doug Shafer:
You finally got your own place in 2002.
Shari Staglin:
It was finally for red wine and white wine.
Doug Shafer:
Great. That's all underground, which is really cool.
Shari Staglin:
Everything's underground.
Doug Shafer:
I remember- I remember going there for a lunch, it was so cool. Well you know, Tchelistcheff actually suggested that. He did.
Doug Shafer:
You know the guy, the guy has his fingerprints all over this valley.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Everybody I talk to there's some connection.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Elias has his tuxedo.
Shannon Staglin:
Really?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, Dorothy-
Shannon Staglin:
Really?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, Dorothy called up Elias, said, you know-
Shari Staglin:
How great.
Doug Shafer:
"You're about the same size as Andre, you want his tuxedo?" Elias says, "Sure."
Shannon Staglin:
Has he worn it to anything-
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah. Yeah.
Shannon Staglin:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Whenever there's something- it's rare that we, you know, get gussied up.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah, black tie around here. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But uh, he does it's great.
Shannon Staglin:
That's great.
Doug Shafer:
We always have a moment. Um, and so wine make- on the wine making you had Celia was your first?
Shari Staglin:
Uh, no our very first wine maker was, I think our first- Cathy Corrison.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, Cathy. Great.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah, and then after her it was Celia. Uh, because Cathy started making her own wine. And it just- and she was buying out grapes and it, it seemed like a conflict of interests. So we parted ways.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
But we're all still friends. And then Celia was with us for 11 or 12 years. And then Andy came on board. And um, and then he went into being a consultant, Celia became a consultant because I said-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shari Staglin:
They either have to be full-time or, for Staglin or they're a consultant but it's not together. And so, whenever they wanted to be a consultant they had to leave with my blessing. And we found somebody new.
Doug Shafer:
I'm with you. That's-
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's, you need to have your own team in place.
Shari Staglin:
Right.
Shannon Staglin:
So, Frederick Johansson is our current wine maker.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shannon Staglin:
And he's been with us since 2007.
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Shannon Staglin:
Yes. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's nothing better than having some time.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah, for sure. And another thing about tenure too in the vineyard, so we talked about David but our crew on the estate, some of them have been with us 34 years. So, Richard-
Shari Staglin:
Yeah, since we-
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah, Richard Villaseñor is our foreman, so he's overseeing the, the crew since the beginning. And then Juan is the tracker driver. Also 34 years. Um, then there's Jose and Ignacio and Jesus, uh, and Jorge are all about two decades. So, the-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Shannon Staglin:
Continuity of workmanship's very important to the quality of the wines that we can make off the estate.
Doug Shafer:
That's incredible.
Shari Staglin:
It's pretty wonderful.
Doug Shafer:
It is wonderful. And you guys should pat yourselves on the back. What's the secret? How- how's-
Shari Staglin:
They're like part of our family.
Doug Shafer:
How's that happen?
Shari Staglin:
Um, well during harvest we've always given a breakfast.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Shari Staglin:
'Cause they have to pick at night.
Doug Shafer:
Food's important.
Shari Staglin:
And lunch.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shari Staglin:
And uh, we just care about them a lot. And you know-
Doug Shafer:
You take care of them.
Shari Staglin:
We walk in the vineyards and talk to them every day. And we live there, and we work there too.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
And we see each other. And-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
Everybody knows everybody.
Doug Shafer:
No, that's- that's a-
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I just, I- that's always really good to hear. I love hearing that.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Shannon Staglin:
And we've gotten to, you know, like they've seen my grow up since I was six years old.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, you were a little girl. Yeah.
Shannon Staglin:
And you know, we've gotten to see some of their kids grow up. And uh, you know, help support them in their ongoing-
Shari Staglin:
Going to college.
Shannon Staglin:
Education. And-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah, so it's actually kinda funny. When my husband and I first started dating and he moved out here from Florida, he's from Houston. He would come on the property and all of the guys that the crew, in the vineyard would kind of look at him very skeptically and (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Shannon Staglin:
You know, he had to, he had to pass the, the test-
Shari Staglin:
He had to pass muster-
Doug Shafer:
He had the pass the test. It's like, who's- yeah. Who's-
Shannon Staglin:
Who's this guy?
Doug Shafer:
Who's dating Shannon?
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) That's pretty funny.
Shari Staglin:
But we know their families and their wives and we've all gotten to know each other every year at our harvest party and throughout the year. And um, you know, they send me pictures of the- one of our guys just sent me several years worth of pictures of, of his family with me.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
At harvest parties.
Doug Shafer:
That's-
Shari Staglin:
And the kids were from little until now they're, you know, starting in high school.
Doug Shafer:
That's cool. Um, want to back up a little bit because this is a really important part of your family's life.
Shari Staglin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And it's, it's blossomed into some wonderful, wonderful things. But in 1990 your son Brandon, brother Brandon, some things happened. Changed his life, changed your lives.
Shari Staglin:
He had an acute onset of schizophrenia.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
In adolescence.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And he was how old?
Shari Staglin:
A psychotic break. He was 18.
Doug Shafer:
18.
Shari Staglin:
He was just after his freshman year at Dartmouth.
Doug Shafer:
Just out of the blue.
Shari Staglin:
To us it was out of the blue. Then, had we known then what we know now, we would have seen the symptoms leading up to it. But he was our first born, and we just assigned it to-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
Okay, that's a way teenager- that's who he is.
Doug Shafer:
He's a 19- yeah, he's a 19 year old. Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah. Right.
Doug Shafer:
But he's in great shape, and he's, he's-
Shari Staglin:
Well he wasn't for a long time.
Doug Shafer:
He wasn't for a long time, but you guys-
Shari Staglin:
We had to figure it out.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
First we had to find out what it was. Then we had to educate ourselves about what it was, and we felt very guilty that usually, in psychology classes in college we learned, I had learned that it's usually the mother's fault because- You hadn't been a good mother. And so I felt very guilty because we'd always expected him to be a high achiever, and he was our first born. And, and a psychologist friend came and talked to us, and he said, "You know what, it's- this is a genetic predisposition. It's triggered by something environmentally. We don't know what it is, but it's not your fault. And nor is it Garen's fault."
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shari Staglin:
It's nobody's fault. It just happens just like, you know, you get cancer, you get diabetes, sometimes you get schizophrenia. And what he needs now is somebody to stick with him. He needs unconditional love, and he especially needs his father. And so, Garen took him to Europe. And uh, he was still pretty sick and they- we were still trying different meds. But eventually one of them worked pretty well. They- those days they kinda zombied you out.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shari Staglin:
But it got rid of his psychosis and he was grateful for that. Um, but we had to go through trial and error for a long time. And at any rate, I think as much to do with meds and psychiatrists is unconditional love.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, love and support.
Shari Staglin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Never ending.
Doug Shafer:
Uncon- unconditional. That's the key word right there.
Shari Staglin:
Right. And sometimes you just want to throw them out. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah. But-
Shari Staglin:
But that's life.
Doug Shafer:
But how tough on you, and Garen. You know, it's like-
Shari Staglin:
It was a- it was, it was the worst thing we ever went through.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause you did everything right raising a kid.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Right?
Shari Staglin:
We- but you know, we all, we all got through it. And Shannon was only 10 then. And she had to bare the brunt of it because Brandon would call her and he had forgotten where he'd left his car. And she'd have to get a neighbor to go pick him up.
Doug Shafer:
Oh. 10 years old.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah. It was kind of a shift in roles, right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Shannon Staglin:
'Cause I was-
Shari Staglin:
You know-
Shannon Staglin:
I was always the younger sister that pestered him. So, it was a, a different, uh, a different exchange for sure. But I, I definitely, I wouldn't say I bared the brunt, you guys did most of the heavy lifting. And I was there on the periphery, so.
Shari Staglin:
But it takes a village, you know.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
He had friends that would come over and visit. And-
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And he works for the winery now, communications manager-
Shari Staglin:
Well he was working for the winery. But now he's full-time, he got his master's degree last year. And now the board has named him president of One Mind, our nonprofit for brain health.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, fantastic.
Shari Staglin:
He's doing a terrific job.
Doug Shafer:
Now is, okay because I was, before I talked about One Mind, this tough, challenging problem you guys had in your family has, you guys morphed it into this fantastic event. It's called the, the Music Festival for Brain Health.
Shari Staglin:
Music festival for Brain Health. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And it's on year 25.
Shari Staglin:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And you've raised how much over that time-
Shari Staglin:
Over 460 million dollars. All of it for research.
Doug Shafer:
I mean, okay. I want to hear about this. Are you- you have to describe this, 'cause it is a fantastic event. It always happens in the middle of harvest, so I can't come pour wine. But I give you cases of wine. But um-
Shari Staglin:
Thank you very much-
Doug Shafer:
Of course. Of course.
Shari Staglin:
For your support and participation.
Doug Shafer:
But describe it to everybody.
Shannon Staglin:
I think you gave a, you gave like a, a five or six liter this year of an older vintage of Hillside Select, so thank you for that.
Doug Shafer:
You're welcome. I'm-
Shannon Staglin:
It was enjoyed. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I'll give you whatever- I'll give you- you just, you tell me what you want I'll deliver. You don't even have to ask. You guys tell me what you want me to give you.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah, it's um, so it's a, it's a really wonderful day. It's called a music festival, but it's really more a festival of a day.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shannon Staglin:
We only have one music performer. Um, but it starts out with a scientific symposium so we have some of the scientists that we're funding their research. We have some of the top scientists in the nation, uh, speaking kind of about, uh, what is happening in research.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shannon Staglin:
The breakthroughs that they're finding. Really sharing kind of pen to paper if you're donating to this cause where your money is going and the difference that it's making. It's a great opportunity for people to be able to meet these scientists, ask personal questions, and it's one of the few places that is truly like, there is no stigma involved in brain health when you come to this day.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shannon Staglin:
And so it's a very kind of freeing and opening energy that I think everybody experiences, and joy from that. Um, being able to talk openly about it. Then after the scientific symposium we have the wine tasting reception in the caves, which you generously contribute to. Uh, and we have 70 of the top wineries, um, from the Napa Valley and beyond pouring. And we have a different local chef doing the hors d'oeuvres for that every year. And then after an hour and a half in the caves, tasting, uh, we transition out to the um, the concert. And so, a different performer is every year, this year was Sheryl Crow. Uh, next year will, will still TBD, but I'm sure it'll be somebody fantastic. It's, Jennifer Hudson was the year before.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Shannon Staglin:
Um, so a really great, uplifting concert, and then for the patrons we have a dinner, uh, at my parents' home in the backyard, and a different celebrity chef does that every year. So, uh, the founding, the first chef every was, uh, Charlie Trotter. Uh, he was very-
Shari Staglin:
First two years.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah, very, very supportive of the cause.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shannon Staglin:
And very interested in what we were doing. This year was chef Nina Compton. So she just won James Beard award for the south. And uh, she has two restaurants in New Orleans, and uh, she actually worked with my husband Artie in Miami, where he was kind of the manager of, uh, Casa Casuarina, which is the Versace mansion and she was the chef. So they go back. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's- it's, it's a day long event. And how many people are there, like for the, for the, the- this, the talks by the scientists, or-
Shannon Staglin:
It's a full house.
Doug Shafer:
Research.
Shannon Staglin:
I mean, it's stand- it gets into standing room only, uh-
Shari Staglin:
It's about 450 to 500.
Doug Shafer:
Four- four to five hundred people.
Shari Staglin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And then they all can participate in the wine tasting and patron dinner's probably a little smaller.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah, the- so the symposium is also free. So, anybody can come to that as long as they register.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Shannon Staglin:
Uh, and then um, the tickets that you can purchase are for the concert and reception, wine tasting and reception. Uh, and concert, or the full day, which includes the dinner.
Doug Shafer:
The dinner.
Shannon Staglin:
So, yeah the dinner, uh, generally is around two-
Shari Staglin:
250-
Shannon Staglin:
Under 250.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shannon Staglin:
Uh, this year we got totally oversold. And I think we were at 340.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Shannon Staglin:
So we now know exactly how many can fit without any more room. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You know, the Staglin family has a lot of energy.
Shannon Staglin:
We do.
Doug Shafer:
That's all I can say.
Shari Staglin:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I've known you, Shari for so long, and Shannon, you know, I can't keep up with you guys. Um, so it's a beautiful day. It's all, it's all happens at your place.
Shari Staglin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
Home and winery.
Shari Staglin:
It does.
Doug Shafer:
So this fantastic festival 25 plus years. It's so great, but, flashing back to before you started the festival with this, this unbelievably challenging, tough, tragic thing with Brandon and, and how it, you know just challenged you to your core-
Shari Staglin:
For sure.
Doug Shafer:
as a parent, how, how did you get through that, that, that tough, tough tragic time and evolve and turn this into this wonderful triumph that you have today? How, how, how you, Shari, how you do that?
Shari Staglin:
Well, we didn't do it alone. A lot of it was Brandon too.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
And, and he, he realized and we told him that, if we could, we would take that disease from him, because we'd already lived a great life and we wanted him to live a great life.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Shari Staglin:
And that we loved him very much, um, but his job going forward, and he, he was down on himself psychologically because of the stigma.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Shari Staglin:
Plus the fact that he didn't have a girlfriend, he couldn't get a job, um, so we said your job now is to get well, that's your job, and we're here to help you and we gonna always help you, no matter what; but he realized that, okay, from that point forward, he had to work at it just as hard as we worked to help him and so it took us a long time to get him better. But he had, we had a wonderful psychiatrist at Dartmouth who gave us pointers along the way and when, even when Brandon couldn't go back to school, they always made their kids with psychotic breaks stay out for one year.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Shari Staglin:
Brandon talked him into coming back within one quarter, because the psychiatrist said you either have to get a job and, and, uh, you have to get a supervisor to recommend you or you have to go back to school and get a professor to recommend you. Well Brandon did both-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Shari Staglin:
And he got both recommendations and he went back within a quarter, and he worked hard, it was not easy. He moved out of the dorm because of the, the di- discrimination and stigma and, and-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shari Staglin:
We got him an apartment, but, um, and it was us as much as anybody that had to get ourselves better. We needed that psychologist to help us understand that it wasn't our fault and then we didn't feel the guilt and we could help him more. But we were still in shell shock for quite a while and we were running through the vineyard one morning with our dogs and I said "You know what," we met Charlie Trotter at Birmingham, at that wine auction.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Shari Staglin:
He's such a great guy, he was a chef, we were the winery and, um, I told him, you know, you're so good, you gotta come out and do something. We just built a house on our vineyard and maybe you'll do something for us. He said, "Well sure, uh, well if it's charity, I'll do it for nothing".
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Shari Staglin:
And I said "Wow, that sounds great". So, and then we had another friend who had a new boyfriend and she brought him out from New York and he was conductor and he said "My gosh, this is a beautiful place, you ought to have a music festival."
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Shari Staglin:
And I said no way, there's, I have no time to do a music festival, because I am so busy getting our business started in the wine business. And he said, "Well, if you did something for charity," he said, "I'd produce it for you". So, I was like, well, we'll talk about it.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shari Staglin:
So we're running around with the dogs one morning, I said to Garen, you know, what if we put Charlie Trotter together with Richard and we did a music festival and Richard did the music, he, he'd have an orchestra and, and Charlie would do the dinner-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Shari Staglin:
And so in our next wine release letter, which was a little letter on executive stationery, it said two lines, it said "Save the date for September lalala, we're having a music festival for mental health."
Shari Staglin:
And I started getting calls and I got a call from one woman who I never heard of and I wasn't responding to her cause I thought it was just, you know, but I finally... she wouldn't give up and finally she said, oh, this is Jean Robertson and my husband is on your wine list and I have two sons that have, uh, a brain disorder. One has Schizophrenia, one has bi-polar disorder and they're twins and I wanna support you and we'd like to give you $25,000 and I was like, "What?"
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Shari Staglin:
It was only 750, seven, $75 for the day, wasn't it then?
Doug Shafer:
Right, yeah. Shannon: Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
75 for the day and it was a hundred for dinner. So that's where we started.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Shari Staglin:
But, we did get a good outcome and we got our Rutherford neighbors right around us to pour their wine and, uh, we got somebody to do hor d'oeuvres, which it was a local chef and I can't remember, it's probably Cindy. Shannon: Maybe.
Doug Shafer:
Probably.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah. Shannon: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Probably.
Shari Staglin:
So it, it was, but then we had a wine tasting around the tent where the, the concert was and that was the, uh, San Francisco Ballet Orchestra was off-season, so he hired them. Then we had to deal with unions and stuff, but it all worked out. Garen and I did everything, we were running around in our shorts, you know, putting chairs out-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah
Shari Staglin:
Telling the guys where to put the poles for the tent and, um, getting ice for the white wines, and we did everything.
Doug Shafer:
You did it.
Shari Staglin:
And then we didn't, really look that dressed up cause we were still (laughing)-
Doug Shafer:
No, but look what you did and you haven't looked back.
Shari Staglin:
No.
Doug Shafer:
And so if folks out there were interested, where- how would they get more information?
Shannon Staglin:
So-
Doug Shafer:
Through the website?
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah, there's a-
Shari Staglin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shannon Staglin:
Website called, well it's, they can go to the One Mind website.
Shari Staglin:
Okay.
Shannon Staglin:
Um, which is OneMind.org.
Shari Staglin:
And look for events.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shannon Staglin:
Yep. Yep. Or um, there is the musicfestival.org website, which is-
Shari Staglin:
Music-festival dot org.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah, music-festival.org.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. All right, and if you- anybody out there didn't get that just call the Staglin Winery and they'll give you all the information.
Shari Staglin:
Absolutely. We've got it.
Doug Shafer:
Always pick up the phone. So, okay, so how is One Mind connected with this? 'Cause I wasn't sure about that. Is One Mind separate deal, or is it part of the wine-
Shari Staglin:
It's a totally- it's a 501C3-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
IRS designated.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Shari Staglin:
It always has been. So all the money that comes in, 100% of it is for donations.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
We have very few staff, but they're housed there. It's been more and more successful as we go through.
Doug Shafer:
Super.
Shari Staglin:
We sold out last June for a September events, September 14th this year, next year it's the 12th.
Doug Shafer:
Boy that's a lot to organize.
Shari Staglin:
I've already sold two tables for next year.
Doug Shafer:
Look at you.
Shannon Staglin:
(laughs)
Shari Staglin:
Yeah. You want to buy one?
Doug Shafer:
I knew- I knew it was coming. I knew that was coming. All right. Well that's, that's fantastic. And speaking of your beautiful home, something else happened in 1997. Hollywood came calling.
Shannon Staglin:
They did.
Doug Shafer:
What was that all about?
Shannon Staglin:
The movie The Parent Trap, uh, the second, or the first remake that Disney did that had, uh, Lindsey Lohan and Dennis Quaid and Natasha Richardson.
Shari Staglin:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Shannon Staglin:
Was filmed at my parents' house. It was the summer before I left for college. So, I was there for the first three weeks of filming. And then missed the last week, uh, to go down to UCLA. But it was, um, you know, it's interesting because now, like today people that grew up watching that movie, when they come to Napa Valley they want to know where this house is, and they want to come to the house and come inside the house. And (laughs) you know-
Doug Shafer:
Oh my god. It's to this day- they still do?
Shannon Staglin:
Oh, yes. It's-
Shari Staglin:
Oh yeah. It's still on the Disney Channel and people watch it all the time.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So what hap- so they're knocking on your door?
Shannon Staglin:
I mean, we- we have a gated entrance to the property, which we never closed-
Shari Staglin:
Thank god.
Shannon Staglin:
But now we do, we have it closed. (laughs) So, um, and you know, we- for hospitality purposes, we're, we're very limited in the number of people that we can see, uh, per day by our use permit.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shannon Staglin:
Uh, so we um, you know, we- we graciously, you know, share kind of our limitations with those that are interested in coming to visit the home. (laughs) So-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shari Staglin:
It goes with the territory I guess. But we never imagined that it would hang on this long.
Doug Shafer:
Well, so Shari you had the, did they like clean, did they clean your whole house out and bring in new stuff? That must have-
Shari Staglin:
Uh, only- yeah, sort of.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
They took our, a lot of our art down.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, your beautiful art. Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah. They wanted to put things up like rowboats and things that looked like a bachelor.
Doug Shafer:
I see. (laughs)
Shari Staglin:
And so they paid to move the- by art movers to move it out. And they took out all of our living room furniture and our piano and put in beige corduroy furniture that looked like a bachelor. And-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Shari Staglin:
Anyway, it was kind of fun to see, it was funny actually. And they told us when they were gonna, they wanted to make the movie there, I- they said they wanted us to leave. We'd have to move out. And I said, "No, we- we live here and we work here. We're not leaving." Well then your dogs will have to go to a kennel. "No, they live here too and they're not leaving." So, they did it anyway. So we got the watch the takes once, 'cause they did everything five times.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Shari Staglin:
Then we'd go back about our work.
Doug Shafer:
What- did- was it fun for you, Shannon?
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah, I mean it was, it was interesting to see how a movie is made, right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Shannon Staglin:
And the number of people that are required, and uh, just the infrastructure that they bring in. And everything, it's intense. You know, and uh, but it was, um, it was a fun experience. You know, I was in, I was in between senior year in high school and freshman year in college. And so-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shannon Staglin:
This is when I would like to sleep until 11 o'clock every morning, right?
Shari Staglin:
No chance.
Shannon Staglin:
And uh, one morning they were filming in the kitchen at like 6:30 in the morning. And my bedroom is above the kitchen. And so, of course it woke me up, and I kind of came down the stairs in my boxers and T-shirt, which I slept in-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shannon Staglin:
To a hallway full of people looking at me. (laughs) So, I made my way up to kind of the apartment above the garage to go back to sleep. But (laughs) ...
Doug Shafer:
That's pretty funny.
Shari Staglin:
Garen and I would run around the vineyard every morning with our two dogs, our Jack Russells. And um, stop and have breakfast in the catering tent. We could have anything we wanted. And then we go on up, and whenever they were doing takes they would, they would pick the dogs up so the dogs wouldn't bark or anything or get into the take of the filming. And the dogs got really used to it, or they'd feed them. And uh, they got very spoiled and fat while they were there.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Shari Staglin:
The director had to put out a notice to quit feeding the dogs.
Doug Shafer:
That's pretty good. So, 2015 you had a chance to expand your property. You add some vineyard?
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah, we-
Shari Staglin:
Oh that's right.
Shannon Staglin:
We purchased a section, um, in between where my parents' property is and the highway.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shannon Staglin:
It's five and a half acres. There was owned by the Farig family.
Shari Staglin:
The Farig.
Shannon Staglin:
And under long term contract with Pine Ridge.
Shari Staglin:
Okay.
Shannon Staglin:
So they had been farming it and using the grapes from that property. But it was also the home sight for the Steckter's daughter that my mom was mentioning earlier.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. That's great.
Shannon Staglin:
Um, we have, uh, we're actually in the process right now of replanting it. Um, and then as my mom mentioned we're gonna break ground in the spring to build a, a home for myself and my husband and our two children.
Doug Shafer:
Oh great.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah. So we'll, we'll have, it'll be a nice commute to work. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, exactly. Especially these days.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's cool. Full circle.
Shannon Staglin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
So how many acres total you guys have now?
Shannon Staglin:
Uh, well inc- including that it's like, 60-
Shari Staglin:
And then we bought the hillside later too.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shari Staglin:
Because I didn't want to take out any vines to build a house. So, we-
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Okay.
Shari Staglin:
Bought the hillside and, and we put our house on the hill and our winery under the hill. So all in we're just over like, 66 acres, 68.
Shari Staglin:
67 or eight. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. So do you buy any fruit or just use your own?
Shannon Staglin:
So the Staglin wines are 100% estate.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shannon Staglin:
Uh, the Salus wines, which-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that.
Shannon Staglin:
Those are estate, but also some non-estate fruit, but from very high quality uh, ranches in the Napa Valley. So, uh, when we started to produce Salus we wanted to tie that into our philanthropic work. And-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shannon Staglin:
So the Roman goddess, uh, Salus is the goddess of health and wellbeing. And we donate all of the profits from the sale of the Salus label, both the chardonnay and the cabernet back towards brain health research.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah. So, um-
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Shannon Staglin:
You know, we're, we're limited in what we can produce off of our estate.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shannon Staglin:
And so we wanted to kind of expand the production within reason, still quite small of the Salus label, so we do purchase some fruit from some great properties like, uh, we've historically purchased from Hudson and Hyde for the Chardonnay, from Beckstoffer Jordan the third for the cabernet. So-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, those are all great ones.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man. Good for you. That's so, Salus the- there's a Chardonnay and a Cabernet?
Shannon Staglin:
Correct, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. And in Staglin there's a couple Cabs?
Shannon Staglin:
Uh, we only have one. So, or there's uh, the Staglin Chardonnay and the Staglin Cabernet and then we have two very small production wines that we do off of the estate. Uh, one is called Stagliano uh, or Stagliano which is our Sangiovese. We have an acre and a half of Sangiovese.
Shari Staglin:
The original family name is- Dad was born with that.
Shannon Staglin:
And um, that was planted in ninety...
Shari Staglin:
Oh gosh you're taking so long time to propagate it. Uh, but we had a fully producing vineyard by ‘93 was our first. No, ‘90 is the first time. ‘93 is the first time we released it.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Tough grape to grow.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah, you know about that.
Doug Shafer:
Oh man, tough wine to make.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah. Originally we got it from Biondi Santi and later we got some from Firebreak.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I mean I got some from Pepi and he said it was Biondi. Who knows what was going on there-
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
-everybody. There's about a million stories about budwood from here.
Shannon Staglin:
We only have an acre and a half so it's manageable.
Doug Shafer:
That's, that's, that's a good move right there.
Shari Staglin:
Yes, yeah. And it's kind of become, it's a little bit of a unicorn wine like people are like "oh the Sangiovese."
Doug Shafer:
Oh I know it's great.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah and then um, we also have a label that we call Ineo, which is a Bordeaux blend that is more Cab Franc prominent comparatively to our Staglin Cabernet. Very small production, anywhere from 50 to 100 cases of that. The first vintage of that was 2006 and we, it came out of an auction lot for Auction Napa Valley. It was the first auction lot to ever sell for a million dollars at the auction.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Shari Staglin:
Which included some of this wine uh, as well as a trip to France so... (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I do remember that day, it was a big day.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah, it was a shock. And it was so hot in, remember that?
Doug Shafer:
It was a hot day, somebody dropped a million dollars.
Shari Staglin:
We had never met before, until that day.
Doug Shafer:
Look at you, look at you guys. How do you repeat that? You can't.
Shari Staglin:
Mike Thompson, our congressman, was going around with wine in a basket like he does-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shari Staglin:
-and and, Garen pulled one of our wines out and, and poured it for the tables around us and that was one of the, that lady is the one that bought the uh...
Doug Shafer:
You never know.
Shari Staglin:
You never know.
Doug Shafer:
Good surprise. You guys, it's great but, but Shannon back to you 2015, besides new vineyard what happened to you? You ran, you ran to some guy in, in Florida?
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah so I was there working the market and Artie Johnson is my now husband, um, he was working in Miami. He'd been there, I think for seven years running wine programs and uh, I was, we were Augustan Wines and the sales rep Rachel that I was working with was awesome and she put together this really great lunch. So instead of going to visit a bunch of accounts everybody met at the River Oyster Bar, which is kind of like the "Cheers" of Miami for people in trade.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shannon Staglin:
And Tim Brickell. And so did lunch, Artie was there, met him, he was very thoughtful and asked some great questions and was also good looking but I didn't really think much of it other than that.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) I love this.
Shannon Staglin:
Then I was back there in, later that year actually to do a, to a di- do a dinner at the St. Regis in Bal Harbor that came out of that lunch that I did earlier that year and that's when we really got to know each other better, we'll say (laughs). And he moved to Napa shortly thereafter in June of 2015 and then we got, no sorry this was before that. So that was in 13, uh, June of 2013. And then we got engaged in January of ‘14, we got married in May of ‘15, we had our first child in March of ‘16.
Shari Staglin:
It all happened so fast.
Shannon Staglin:
Our second child in July of ‘17 and we're done now with, with babies, but now we're building houses so you know and we're launching wine brands and all that (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
You're, you guys I've, I've spent a little bit of time with Artie, he's a kick. Whenever I see him at events he's, it's great, it's like "hey", he goes "hey." And so we always have a nice chat but, but I was just thinking about you guys this morning you know, cause Cicily is how old?
Shannon Staglin:
Cicily is just over three and a half.
Doug Shafer:
And Artie?
Shannon Staglin:
Arthur is just about two and a half.
Doug Shafer:
You know I'm, just the thought of that just kind of scares me shakes, you know I've, I've live through, I've lived through it. I've lived through it a few times but it's still like - I was just thinking about you and Artie-
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah?
Doug Shafer:
And these two little kids.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And you're running a winery.
Shannon Staglin:
Yup.
Doug Shafer:
And traveling. I've, it's just like, how are you doing this?
Shannon Staglin:
It's, I...
Doug Shafer:
How you doing it?
Shari Staglin:
Grandparents.
Shannon Staglin:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Well...
Shannon Staglin:
Grandparents are very helpful, um, but yeah it's an intense time and it, it - uh, our children are Cicily and Arthur and um, Artie my husband, has started his own wine label so that's called "Artie, Le Artie Shasic." So it's the combination of our three family names "Artie, Shannon and Sicily." And uh, I'm in YPO, which is a professional organization. I'm actually chair of our chapter which is just a one year responsibility but it's a lot and then I'm also launching a new wine brand, a very small project with our winemaker Fredrik, uh, hopefully before the end of the year so...
Doug Shafer:
That's exciting.
Shannon Staglin:
It's just kind of a building time in our lives (laughs). There's a lot happening and I don't know how I keep it all above water but I try (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Well, congratulations, but I will, I will give your parents, the grandparents you know, a little, some credit because I was somewhere with Garen and uh, it was hilarious he was like "oh, oh." He might have getting a cup of coffee. I go "what?" He goes "oh Jesus." He was just, you know I love your Dad, and your husband. And uh, I said "what?" And he goes "Shannon and Artie are gone for the weekend so we're covering the kids." I say "well that sounds great. What's it like?" He goes "oh my gosh they're running all over the place". And he had a little video of one of them. He goes "look at this" and this kids like, screaming down the hall you know, trying not to knock over stuff and Garen's chasing him. So I would, I had a good chuckle but uh, I'm about uh, run in to that roll myself real soon here but....
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah they're definitely toddlers.
Shari Staglin:
Handful. For sure.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Just amazing. It's why you're busy. You're busy busy busy. So, family owned business, Shari you been growing it for a long, long time, um, Shannon you been on board for quite a while now, you're all working together it's, it's working well, it's successful, you've got exciting plans for the future, you got all the family involved, you all get along. What's, what's the secret to a successful family business and family members working together?
Shari Staglin:
I think it's... We're very lucky that we all respect each other and in 2005 we sat down and wrote a family mission statement, and all four of us immediately agreed on everything we thought we should be doing in our lives. What, what are the values we should be looking at to make decisions, and it took us one hour from 9:00 to 10:00 in the morning we had it all written down, we were ready to go.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah, so, I think because we share the same values and we care about the thing, same things, like making sure that, uh, we are doing things environmentally that the vineyard will always go on, family will always come first-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shari Staglin:
That was the first statement,
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shari Staglin:
We take care of our community, what are some of the other ones... we had like five.
Shannon Staglin:
I guess world-class quality wines ...
Shari Staglin:
Yeah, definitely part of that (laughing).
Shannon Staglin:
But I think a, a couple things to add to that. So, one is that, you know, my brothers seven and a half years older than I am, and I always wanted to be, you know, I wanted to run the wine business, but that kind of made me concerned about how that would make him feel-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shannon Staglin:
And so, we had a very meaningful family meeting. That was after we wrote the mission statement, I think, and really talked through, like, what, what our desires and wishes were and Brennan was fully supportive of me wanting to do that and, um, this was before he was really involved with One Mind and, uh, but you know he's-
Shari Staglin:
He also could not drink alcohol, because of his meds-
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah, correct.
Shari Staglin:
Uh-huh
Shannon Staglin:
Exactly, so, uh-
Shari Staglin:
So it made sense.
Shannon Staglin:
So it works out well that, you know, my passion is wine, his passion is brain health and we can both lead in, in those respects, and then also I think, in the wine business in particular, I think one of the challenges is that, if the first generation or founding generation is going to pass it on, they have to be willing to, um, pass on decision making ability and be trusting of maybe if I'm thinking of doing something different than my parents would-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shannon Staglin:
You know, we, we do disagree (laughing), um, and as long as I can provide, you know, sound reasoning as to why I think we should do something in one way versus another, they're usually supportive of that, and I think that that's really key and maybe one of the challenges that I see with people that are in my generation or slightly younger, really getting to have some real responsibility and effect change for the right reason in their business.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, well kudos to you and Garen for listening and-
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I had the similar situation with Dad.
Shari Staglin:
Really?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, people say, you know -
Shannon Staglin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Doug Shafer:
Kinda looking for dirt.
Shannon Staglin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Kinda questions like, well, how's it going with your Dad and, you know, any issues, you know, waiting for him to say, uh, you know he won't let me do this, he won't let me do that, just like to say, well, everything's fine, you can think-
Shari Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
We kinda agree on everything-
Shari Staglin:
Exactly.
Doug Shafer:
And even when we don't agree, it's like, okay, I got, I see your point, I see your point, okay. Let's, let's make a call.
Shari Staglin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Doug Shafer:
That was that way for, forever. It was really, it was - I didn't realize how special it was-
Shari Staglin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Doug Shafer:
As I've gotten older and hear more family business-
Shari Staglin:
Yeah
Doug Shafer:
Horror stories sometimes, so.
Shari Staglin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Doug Shafer:
It's all about trust and, and letting go.
Shari Staglin:
Yeah
Shannon Staglin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Doug Shafer:
So Shannon, you've got this great, these great line-up of wines, um, and some new ones coming. What, kind of philosophically, when someone grabs a bottle of Staglin wine and opens it, what, what do you want them to experience?
Shannon Staglin:
I think it's the wines that we're producing off of our estate are very special and we take a lot of pride and care in what we're doing every day and so does the entire team, right, that is helping us produce these and, um, you know, how, how is Staglin, we'll just talk about cabernet, different than a lot of the Cabernets that, that people might come across from Napa Valley and I think that, um, we remain true to our site and the beauty of our site really shows a lot of elegance and finesse in the way in which the cabernet can be experienced. And so Napa can be known power and extraction, uh, whereas I think our cabernet is, um, it has beautiful fine-grain tannins, um, lovely fruits, some herbal components and so, I think that it is, it can please both the old and the new world palettes, uh, because it can deliver on both sides of the spectrum, um, but I think restrained finesse, and elegance.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And I'm, I'm glad you brought up your site, we haven't talked enough about your site, it's that, your vineyard is in, you know, prime location in this valley, you know, on the western bench, right there in Rutherford Oakville. It's great, great, great piece of property, great heritage-
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know, going back to the BV days.
Shannon Staglin:
When I was looking for it, I got to find that out, I didn't, we didn't know anything about anything. And I was the one that did all the vineyard shopping-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shannon Staglin:
And, uh, I, I hired a consultant. And he, he's the one that said, you know, you just got a... if you wanna get a really good vineyard, he said, all you timers knew when they came out here that the Western Bench lands were the best, because they had the volcanic-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Shannon Staglin:
The deep volcanic soils that is so good for cabernet, and he said, but they never change hands because families, you know, they pass them down.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Shannon Staglin:
And we really got lucky, cause this one was never on the market, but our realtor's name is Jim Warren, he was in a winery partnership with John Brian across the lane-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shannon Staglin:
Bella Oaks and he had been offered it by, uh, the Sullivans', which was Dagmar duPins and her husband, Walter. Couple years before because their children had no interest in the wine business or, or the vineyard business, and so, and John said well what do I need with another million dollar vineyard. And which, that's what, you know, that's about what it cost in those days. And but Jim knew about it, and so he told us about it and he said it's not for sale, really. I can try, and he worked at it for quite a while.
Doug Shafer:
That's-
Shannon Staglin:
And finally-
Doug Shafer:
That's great to hear.
Shannon Staglin:
We talked him into it.
Doug Shafer:
And you know its good to hear that Jim Warren had to work to sell something (laughing). Because Jim Warren is the guy my father met in 1973 or ‘72 when he came out here, dad came out here looking for vineyard. And he and Jim Warren ran all over the valley, couldn't find anything, and then Warren finally says, ‘cause dad had some wild idea about hillsides. And Warren goes "What if the old Phillips place down Stags' Leap it's been on the market five years, maybe, you know, let's go take a look". And dad tells a story, he drove up the driveway and said, man this is it. So, boom. So I'm glad Mr. Warren had to work hard to sell something. It's good to know.
Shari Staglin:
Well Father's Day of 1985, I brought Garen out to show him this vineyard. And we had to sneak around, because they said, he said, you know, it's not for sale and none of the neighbors need to know, they can't know-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's funny.
Shari Staglin:
So we, he had to park his Jeep way down the road. We walked up, we got to the top the vineyard, looked down and Garen said, "It doesn't get any better than this."
Doug Shafer:
There you go. If people wanna get a hold of your wine what's the best way for them to do it? I mean you're distributed all over the world probably but ...
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah we sell 70% of what we produce direct to our wine club and mailing list on allocation so, the best, most, there's the Salus wines you can purchase online on our website which is Staglinfamily.com uh, the Staglin-
Shari Staglin:
Email info@staglinfamily.com
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Shannon Staglin:
Uh, the Staglin wines are sold on allocation so the best thing to do is give us a call at the offices. We, somebody always answers the phone within two rings. Or three rings.
Shari Staglin:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Wow you guys are good.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
We're about four here.
Shari Staglin:
And they're real people.
Doug Shafer:
Um, well good. I'm sure people will look for them. They should, they're great wines.
Shannon Staglin:
Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
And uh, boy you guys have done some wonderful things.
Shari Staglin:
Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
So we've got, is there anything new coming or, it sounds like there's plenty going on right now.
Shannon Staglin:
There's a lot happening yeah so... (laughs) We're um...
Shari Staglin:
Well her new project Resa is coming.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah so uh, Fredrik Johansson our winemaker and I, with the blessing of Carissa Mondavi, his wife, I had set them up on a, so, that was, I've only match made once and it's, so I have 100% success rate. Both Carissa and Artie are kind of supporting us in this project as well as my family to do a, uh, it's a single bottling of Grenache and a single bottling of Pinot Noir so...
Doug Shafer:
Oh fun.
Shannon Staglin:
Kind of lighter bodied red varietals and uh, from some, some really great properties, uh, over in Sonoma and Petaluma Gap area, uh, so that, uh, will be launching, uh, hopefully as I said, later this year. Uh, or before the end of the year and that's called Resa, it's "R-E-S-A." Uh, which is Swedish for "journey" which uh, Fredrik is of Swedish descent, and I just love the word and the notion that, you know, we're all on our journeys right? And some of our paths cross temporarily and some for a lifetime and often times in our world it involves wine so I thought it was a, a great name.
Doug Shafer:
It is a great name. A great story.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Well good luck with that.
Shannon Staglin:
Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
It sounds very cool. You two, Shari, Shannon, thanks for coming in here. It's been a lot of fun.
Shari Staglin:
You're so welcome.
Shannon Staglin:
Yeah thanks for having us.
Doug Shafer:
All right guys, thanks for coming by.
Shari Staglin:
Thank you.
Shannon Staglin:
Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
See you soon.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Hey everybody, uh, welcome back, Doug Shafer. Another episode of The Taste. Um, we've got a great, great, great winemaker, friend, mentor, Zelma Long right here today. She has been around a long time. She and I run into each other. I've never spent much time with her so I'm jazzed about today. She is one of the true pioneers in, uh, the quest for top quality wines. She's mentored many, many great winemakers who a few have been on The Taste before. She's forged a path for all of us. Zelma, been really looking forward to having you here. Thank you.
Zelma Long:
Thank you Doug. It's a pleasure.
Doug Shafer:
So tell me, where were you born? What year? Give me, give me the early days.
Zelma Long:
I was born in 1943 in The Dalles, Oregon, which is a town east of the Cascades and, uh, a dry country sitting on the Columbia river.
Doug Shafer:
Sounds beautiful.
Zelma Long:
Great river.
Doug Shafer:
Any vineyards?
Zelma Long:
No vineyards. Cherry orchards.
Doug Shafer:
Cherry orchards.
Zelma Long:
And a lot of, uh, wheat fields.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. And, brother, sisters?
Zelma Long:
Only child.
Doug Shafer:
Only child. What ... And mom and dad, wha-what'd they do?
Zelma Long:
They were teachers.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. And you growing up, sports? Activities? What were you into?
Zelma Long:
I, I fell in love with horses and so, uh, mom and dad bought me a horse. I had a friend who had a ranch. Uh, we kept the horse up there. We rode out across the hills. Many, many times. It was un-unstructured play time.
Doug Shafer:
That's fantastic.
Zelma Long:
It was.
Doug Shafer:
And you took, and you took care of the horse? Your ... Were you responsible?
Zelma Long:
I was responsible but I didn't take care of it on a daily basis because we lived in town. The ranch was about ten miles out. And from that ranch house, you could see mounted ... Mount Adams and Mount St. Helens on the cascades. It was the most-
Doug Shafer:
Oh beautiful.
Zelma Long:
Amazing location.
Doug Shafer:
Tha-that's gorgeous country.
Zelma Long:
It is.
Doug Shafer:
So was wine part of the home, home scene?
Zelma Long:
No. My parents ... And I think this is true for their generation. They drank cocktails. When we got together with relatives at Thanksgiving or Christmas, um, everyone would have a cocktail, they'd be playing poker.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Zelma Long:
So there was no animosity towards alcohol and no one ever got drunk.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Zelma Long:
So I didn't know that that existed until I was in college (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. College kind of does that for everybody, does it?
Zelma Long:
Yes it does (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
No matter where you came from. That's the-
Zelma Long:
Not for me.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Zelma Long:
I don't think I've ever been ... Well, I think I got drunk one time. Not badly drunk but disoriented in Burgundy.
Doug Shafer:
Burgundy.
Zelma Long:
I went to, um, a wedding-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Zelma Long:
Of a young burgundy woman. And the ... And it was at the, um, Clos Vougeot. It was so extraordinary because they had wines and they have, uh, Corton-Charlemagne. They had wines going back 40 years.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Zelma Long:
That they served. Chardonnay, white burgundy, and red burgundy. I probably had a little too much. And it wasn't a problem. I was staying with John [Noel-Francois 00:04:10] in their guest house (laughing). Uh, the only problem was I couldn't get the door to the house open when I got there so I had to sleep on a bench by the swimming pool (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
No, I don't ... I don't think-
Zelma Long:
They-they've never forgotten that.
Doug Shafer:
Uh, yeah. I don't think you were drunk. I just think you just, you know, had trouble with the door. I-I-I-
Zelma Long:
(laughing). Anyone ... I-I grew up with, uh, with ... Sips of alcohol was a normal part of life.
Doug Shafer:
Good, good. I'm trying to think if I've ever slept on a bench.
Zelma Long:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
I've slept in the back of a car a couple times. Anyway, um, so after growing up, so college. Whe-where was college?
Zelma Long:
Oregon State University in Corvallis. I started in home economics with a minor in nutrition. It was the nutrition that was really the focus and I didn't care for home economics. So I switched to general science, even though my advisor said, "Zelma, if you want to be in science, you need to be more focused than general science." But I was able to get the chemistry and microbiology and, uh, molecular biology, which I loved, um, that I needed for my nutrition work. And I also had time to do liberal arts courses 'cause like in ... I think I took-
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Zelma Long:
All introduction courses. Introduction to Philosophy, to Art, to Music, to Geology, to Accounting. So I had a broad education, which I really have appreciated.
Doug Shafer:
All right. That's fantastic. I-I'm a bit jealous because I did the UC Davis Viticulture and Enology and it was pretty much straight science and math, and not a lot of room for electives. And yeah, I've got ... I'm very fortunate I get to travel around the world, selling wine, I’m in beautiful places in cities and museums. And, you know, just a couple of art history classes just, you know ... I kind of wish we would have had that so.
Zelma Long:
Would be wonderful.
Doug Shafer:
So I need to go back. So after, um ... So you're at Oregon State and, um, whe-when did the wine thing happen? Was it, was it college? Was it ... Were you drinking wine in college or ...?
Zelma Long:
No. I wasn't actually. Beer was the alcohol of choice.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Zelma Long:
But I didn't ... I wasn't a party person. But between my sophomore and junior year, I had an opportunity to go to the Bay Area and s-, work in the Department of Nutrition at UC-Berkeley. And at that time, I met my future husband, Bob Long. I went back and finished at Oregon State in 1965 and his parents, um, started to plant vineyards in Napa Valley in 1966.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Zelma Long:
U-uh, we ... Well, while I was working as a dietitian at USE medical center, UCSF. But I thought, "Well. Um, I-if they're going to have a vineyard, maybe I come learn how to make wine. Bob had introduced me to wine. And one time, his parents had a summer house up in the hills above St. Helena in Angwin and he'd made dinner for me there. And the wine he served was Souverain's Green Hungarian.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Zelma Long:
And I ... It's amazing I still remember it. It was the first wine I ever had. I thought it was delicious.
Doug Shafer:
Really?
Zelma Long:
And then-
Doug Shafer:
Green Hungarian. I love it.
Zelma Long:
I-i-I'm still not sure the source of that named grape in terms of its history-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Zelma Long:
But it was ground by Jerry Draper.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Zelma Long:
It was an early vineyardist and he grew grapes for Lee Stewart at Souverain. And I found out many years later that at the time, those grapes that made that wine. Those grapes were 50 or 60 years old. They were old grapes.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Zelma Long:
And that's why that wine was so good.
Doug Shafer:
It's amazing.
Zelma Long:
Yes it was.
Doug Shafer:
That's pretty cool. So Green Hungarian. That was your, that was the first wine that Bob introduced you to and, um, that was the start for you.
Zelma Long:
Yes it was.
Doug Shafer:
And so, so were you guys married at that time or soon to be?
Zelma Long:
No, no, we had just met.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. I see. So he was wooing you with Green Hungarian?
Zelma Long:
He was wooing me with Green Hungarian. Yeah. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) So you went back, that was your internship during college? You went back and graduated?
Zelma Long:
Correct. We married right after I graduated, and I moved down to the Bay Area and, um, started work as a tactician, and worked for there, three years. When Bob and I, he was at a break in his job, and we thought we'd like to go to Europe for several months. So, I basically quit my job. (laughs) And we did. We went to Europe and after we returned, we moved to the Napa Valley.
Doug Shafer:
Because his folks had property on Pritchard Hill, was that correct?
Zelma Long:
Well, the property that we stayed at was at Angwin.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Zelma Long:
The vineyard that he planted in 66, 67 was on Pritchard.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Wow. That's great. Because, you know, no one knew Pritchard Hill that way.
Zelma Long:
That was the old days.
Doug Shafer:
Those were the old days.
Zelma Long:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And so, uh, you guys moved up here and you continued with the wine bug?
Zelma Long:
I did continue with the wine bug. I actually went back to school at UC Davis.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Zelma Long:
Because I already had my science background. I could slip into a graduate program in enology and viticulture, which I did.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. So you're at Davis, get your Master's?
Zelma Long:
Correct.
Doug Shafer:
And, I think you got a phone call?
Zelma Long:
I got a phone call from Mike Grgich who at that time was the enologist at Robert Mondavi Winery. And this was August of 1970. He said, you know, "I need some help for harvest. You've been recommended by one of your professors, um, can you come to work?" And I said, "No, I have to go back to school to finish my degree. And my mother's visiting."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Well, you're very responsible, that's good.
Zelma Long:
(laughs) He called me the next day and said, "This is going to be a great experience for you. You'll learn so many things that you don't learn in school but are related to what you have learned. Why don't you come and work with me?" So, I did.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. So, that was for, that was an internship for just a harvest?
Zelma Long:
He hired me as a harvest intern.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Harvest intern.
Zelma Long:
Yes, and I was sampling tanks and doing some very simple analytical work for him.
Doug Shafer:
Did you like it?
Zelma Long:
I loved it. It was, um, it was early days for him and how he, he opened that winery in 1966. They were still trialing their presses. They had brand new stainless steel tanks, temperature control, they have these roto tanks for fermentors, but at the same time when Mike interviewed me, what he had been doing was tasting through a small group of barrels. The barrel room is what is now the office. And he was tasting each barrel to determine what variety of wines. (Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Zelma Long:
Because someone hadn't labeled them. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Oh, they hadn't labeled the barrels? Oh, my God. (laughs) oh, men.
Zelma Long:
(laughs) And of course, Mike was experienced you know, well, he just he worked 10 years with Andre Tchelistcheff at Beaulieu and worked in different working groups before that and actually, got his degree in enology and in Yugoslavia as a young man.
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Zelma Long:
So, he knew what he was doing but it was still sort of not a systematized for him making situation. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Kind of the Wild West.
Zelma Long:
Yes. It was Wild West.
Doug Shafer:
So, so you did the internship, then did you go back to finish your Master's in, in Davis or did you just start working?
Zelma Long:
I, I realized the first harvest that I did in 1970, we crushed 1800 tons. And I realized that Mike could use an assistant. And I was correct. The second year we crushed 3600 tons, doubled.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Zelma Long:
But, so, I wrote a job description for what I thought he needed. And I attached my CV, which was very robust. Yeah, and they hired me. So, year one I was, uh, an intern, year two, I was part-time, year three I was full time, and year four Mike left.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. So basically, you didn't finish your Master's just stayed on at Mondavi, Mike was gone. You took over, so did you take over as head of enologist?
Zelma Long:
I did after he left. Yes.
Doug Shafer:
And, um, you know, I was, we moved out here in 73, but I remember in the early days, Mondavi was the cool new thing. They were doing good stuff as I got into the industry. It was like Mondavi was a pioneer. I was always curious, who was driving it in the early days as far as technology with stainless tanks and cooling, cool fermentation and barrel fermentation was it Bob Mondavi, or was it Mike?
Zelma Long:
Well, Bob Mondavi certainly had the vision for the tanks and the use of barrels because he traveled in Europe and seen, uh, gained some ideas. So, so, he, he drove that when the winery was built. But in terms of the wine making itself, Mike drove the wine making and the wine making decisions.
Doug Shafer:
That's cool. You got to work with him for two or three years?
Zelma Long:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Zelma Long:
It was a great learning experience.
Doug Shafer:
So, we with him, because they were, I think at the time the chardonnay was the big, you know, he's known for his wonderful chardonnays forever, um, but a lot of the new technology, and new methods of dealing with chardonnay kind of happened right in that era. So, I'm assuming you had a front row seat for it with it?
Zelma Long:
I had a front row seat, and we had some beautiful grapes. They were fermented in stainless and aged in barrels, and some of the fermentations were done in barrels. But there, Mondavi was also incredibly strong in cabernet. Their ‘69 Cabernet, won some major competition that I in, in California that I had forgotten about. So, they were focused really on fine chardonnay and fine cabernet. And, and tasked with finding those grapes, and when I know, when I started in 1970 there, there were 19 wineries. And the vineyards were mostly mixed varietals. So, we often had to, um, harvest Carignan or more of a head drill with chardonnay and cabernet we brought in, because that's what the groups had in the field.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Is what they had.
Zelma Long:
You want our cabernet, you take our Carignan.
Doug Shafer:
So you're there at 73 year, the chief enologist, and, but were you, who had the wine making title at that time?
Zelma Long:
The Mondavis always, always kept the wine.
Doug Shafer:
The Mondavis always kept it, so Tim did. Got it.
Zelma Long:
I, I don't, Tim wasn't there at that time. Tim came I think around 75 or 76.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Understood. And, um, meanwhile though you, you and Bob, do, do, you guys do you guys start your own operation? Long Vineyards.
Zelma Long:
We did. That vineyard that Bob senior planted, which was Reisling on the advice of Jim Liter, that county extension agent and a little bit of chardonnay proved to make beautiful wines, uh, 10 years later Mike Grgich had made some lovely Reislings from the fruit and Mike and Arlene Bernstein had purchased some chardonnay after seeing what Bob and I made. (laughs) And they made a wine that they sold, chardonnay that he sold for $12 a bottle, which was an outrageously huge price at that time.
Doug Shafer:
It is. I mean, that's what BV reserved cab was about $12 that time. Yeah, I think so, maybe 15. Um, so you guys started Long vineyards, grown Chardonnay and Riesling?
Zelma Long:
First vintage was ‘77. It was at Trefethen because we had no winery. And all we really had was about a dozen barrels, so, it was our first barrel fermentation experience. And we were so pleased with that, that we built a small winery along vineyards up on Pritchard Hill and continued, starting in 1978 to make Chardonnay all of the Chardonnay there. And the Riesling.
Doug Shafer:
I love it, so you're growing, you're making Chardonnay and Riesling up on Pritchard Hill, which today's listeners, know Pritchard Hill as great spot for cabernet, and it is, but um...
Zelma Long:
It was a great spot for chardonnay.
Doug Shafer:
You told me that. North facing and you had some wonderful, wonderful plant material you said in that vineyard.
Zelma Long:
It was, well first of all, it came from another vineyards. And we don't know exactly, which, because Rudy the crafter knew all the vineyards, and he acquired the chardonnay material.
Doug Shafer:
And you don't know where he got it, right?
Zelma Long:
No, he cut some from McCray.
Doug Shafer:
Which is Stony Hill.
Zelma Long:
Stony Hill. I think, he cut some from Martini. But it was, um, it was a clone and had small grapes, small crops and it was diverse. I, I realized that when my husband Phil, and I went through one of the vineyards, and we, Bob had wanted to plant a new vineyard, I wanted to make sure that it duplicated the Southern vineyard, which made such great wine. So, Phil and I went through 12 two rows of that other vineyard and we tasted every vine and we decided there were about five different flavors, apples, citrus, pies. And so, we labeled the grapes and we counted the different flavors, and translated that into percentage. So, Bob knew what vines were what flavors, and what percentage should be planted in the new vineyard, which he did.
Doug Shafer:
That's painstaking job. That's amazing you guys did that.
Zelma Long:
It was, it was amazing. And I did it because I had made Long Vineyards clone existed, um, had been taken from long vineyards into several other vineyards. One of them was Larry Hyde’s vineyard and he selected the plant material. And then ultimately, when I was in Simi, I purchased those grapes and made wine from them. And I knew that the wine from the grapes that he selected was different from the Long Vineyard Chardonnay. And once we went through that-
Doug Shafer:
Interesting. Yeah.
Zelma Long:
- block and saw the diversity, I understood why. Because it, in his, uh, selections, he was probably selecting for healthy plant material or good looking vines. And I don't think any of us were cognizant enough of the variety of flavors that we could have said to Larry, "You have to do it differently." I mean, his wine, his grapes are wonderful, but they're not as complex as Long Lineyards was.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, he had a special thing going.
Zelma Long:
He had a special thing going.
Doug Shafer:
Now the wines are beautiful, because I remember, I'd, I'd come across some of those bottles, older bottles because dad, my dad had been a cellar because you know, he, he knew you guys and, uh, they were delicious, really complex. Um, but also something that I want to talk about that I just found out about in doing some research on you was, something called the American Vineyard Foundation, which was formed in ‘78. And you had a big part in that founding.
Zelma Long:
Yes. It was quite, it was... I was on the board of the American Society of Enology and Viticulcture. And we were looking for ways to finance research. I don't know how the idea emerged. I don't remember but I took hold of it, and formed the foundation, got its 501C3 status, um, conceived the process for the fundraising, and the ACV picked it up and ran with it. Our, our industry at that time wasn't, um, generous with money for research. People were too busy trying to make their businesses run, and figuring out how to make good wine and sell it. But I understand that it's still going strong.
Doug Shafer:
It's doing great. Uh, we cut a nice big check to them every year basically, most of us are part of this. It's called the American Vineyard Foundation. And basically, we pay a certain amount of money per tonne, grown or per acre grown or per tonne crushed as a winery, whether you're a grower winery, but it's, uh, a lot of money that goes straight to the foundation and they distribute grants for research, and we need research all the time. There's always a new pest, there's always new this, there's, you know, different ways to skin the cat out there in the vineyard. So, we need that research and it's been great. So thank you very much for doing that. Appreciate it.
Zelma Long:
Well, it is true. It's amazing to me. I, I have such respect for farmers, because over the years, I've seen all these new little creatures, insects or virus or bacteria emerge to challenge the vineyards.
Doug Shafer:
Very much so.
Zelma Long:
It's, it's, it's complicated.
Doug Shafer:
It's ongoing. You, just soon as you, um, get ahead of one issue, there's another one.
Zelma Long:
Yes. I know.
Doug Shafer:
We all know that. So, 1979, I just finished my fifth year at Davis got a degree in wine making, grape growing, and stayed the next year to get teaching credential. So, I was on my way to teach junior high school in Tucson, Arizona. So, I had a free summer. So, I got a summer job. I was a tour guide at Robert Mondavi winery, the summer of 1979.
Zelma Long:
Wow. We crossed paths.
Doug Shafer:
We crossed paths because well, even if you'd been there, I don't think I would have seen you because you're in the back of the house and I was at the front. But so what happened in 79?
Zelma Long:
As I have mentioned, I hit the glass ceiling at Mondavi, because it's a family run company. And I had really worked in those parts of the business, the wine making business, except for the vineyard work. And I was approached by a recruiter from Simi Winery, who wanted to hire me as a winemaker for Simi. And I decided to make that move, which happened in ‘79. I did my first vintage at Simi in 79. But I wanted to do more. And it offered me the opportunity to source the grapes for the winery to make the harvest decisions, to work with the growers, and also on top of that, they wanted to build a new fermentation cellar. And I would have the responsibility for the design and oversight of the, of the building of the fermentation cellar.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's fun. That's fun.
Zelma Long:
It was, it was. What it required was to think about the wine making process for each of the wines that Simi made, and think about what equipment and tanks and barrels we needed and how to locate them through the cellar. I worked with an engineer.
Doug Shafer:
Production, you know, I love production challenges, that's always been my favorite thing, it's like okay, how can we skin this cat? There's got to be a way, we got to get this wine to that wine to this tank, dah, dah, dah. I mean, um, the guy who trained me, Randy Mason was a master at and that was, I think I just got the bUg, and over the years with Elias I think we have something that's, that's it saying you know, and we would go home, it's hilarious, we'd go home, is like, "Oh we can't solve, we haven't solved it." And we'll both show up the next day, and he'll have a solution and I'll have a different solution, which is really kind of fun. So, it's which one works best.
Zelma Long:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So, while you were at Simi, you worked with a lot of people. Your name's come up. Paul Hobbs has been in here, Dave Ramey. What's your, what's your secret? Do you just go find these, these people and mentor them or they just come to you? I mean, you find, you find some great talent.
Zelma Long:
I have, I always have. Mondavi, Genevieve worked for me.
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Zelma Long:
Paul Hobbs, that's how I knew Paul worked for me. Several other wine makers, but, I was raised, if you put it that way at a winery, Robert Mondavi, where the, the owner, Bob Mondavi, was focused on making great wine, and he was convinced that Napa Valley had the grapes to do it. So, our focus was always, how do we make the wine better? And when I encountered the vineyards, I was thinking the same thing. Now, when you're buying grapes, you don't necessarily have the ability to control the vineyard, but you can make suggestions. However, when I started at Simi I didn't know enough about vineyard to even, even make suggestions. I did know enough to be able to look at the vineyard and taste the grapes, and figure out that they might suit us and sometimes they would, and sometimes they wouldn't. But I was more aware of how little I knew.
Doug Shafer:
And knowing you, that was, that would be something you were going to fix one way or the other.(laughs)
Zelma Long:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So, speaking of that, because, um, you know, time goes on. I think you and Bob parted company, divorced at some point and then you remarried Phil. Phil Freeze, correct?
Zelma Long:
Yes. Bob and I divorced but we did keep running the Long Vineyards.
Doug Shafer:
That's right. You did.
Zelma Long:
Uh, until the vineyards closed.
Doug Shafer:
And when did that, when did it close?
Zelma Long:
That was in the mid-2000s. When his father sold the land.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. And then meanwhile you met Phil Freese. How did that happen?
Zelma Long:
I met Phil, he'd gotten his PhD in biochemistry and biophysics at UC Davis, and decided he didn't want to teach, and he had started working for a vineyard that was supplying a lot of grapes to Robert Mondavi. So, I first met him as a grape supplier.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Zelma Long:
And um, and we became friends that we were both married at that time. And then when I moved to Simi, he was also supplying grapes to Simi. And, but what, what happened to me so important was my drive to figure out what was going in the vineyards led me to start a group called the Napa Valley vineyards research group, and that group was about eight wineries and included Beaulieu, Mondavi, Phelps, Jordan, and Simi. This was around 1980 vineyards were being planted, people were looking for a way to improve the quality of their wines. And we had a lot of unanswered questions. So, each person was tasked with contributing $4,000 a year to UC Davis to fund research in the connection between the vineyard and the winery. What can you do in the vineyard to enhance the quality of the wines? And we looked at rootstock and clones, we looked at, um, training Systems, trellis systems. We looked at road direction, vine spacing, um, and we developed a lot of knowledge through doing that, that project ran I'm guessing, for 10 years. And we shared all that information. At the same time Richard Smart came through about 1980 and spoke at the ACV conference.
Doug Shafer:
I remember Richard Smart. Australian viticulturist, brilliant and always just great new ideas.
Zelma Long:
Well, he said, at that time he said, "All your vineyards in Napa Valley are trellised wrong."
Doug Shafer:
That's right. (laughs)
Zelma Long:
I'll never how forget that. And of course now they're all different. (Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, he did not, he did not hold back. He told it like it was. Or at least according to him. And he, he consults all over the world too.
Zelma Long:
Well, he has stimulated some change.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughs)
Zelma Long:
And uh, when I moved to Simi, Phil left his job, uh, working for the vineyards that were supplying grapes to Mondavi and started, uh, running the viticulture program at Robert Mondavi and became their vice president of wine growing.
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Zelma Long:
And through the research that our group did and his own research at Mondavi, he was able to go into their growers vineyards and actually make suggest, specific suggestions about how to change their practices to enhance the wine.
Doug Shafer:
I remember that because I remember Mondavi had a program, I didn't know it was Phil, but they had a program where they were out in the vineyards talking to growers a lot, because I'd, once in a while I would try to steal a grower from Mondavi but didn't work out very well. (laughs) But, but I'm here.
Zelma Long:
Sure it didn't. (laughs) It was cagey. He, he, he had to buy all the grapes too.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. So, he's doing all the contracts?
Zelma Long:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's great. But no, and by the time I, I, I met Phil a couple times, but I'd hear him speak at seminars and gatherings and things like that, but he was one of the guys he's, you know, as far as you know what to do in the vineyard. He was the guy so.
Zelma Long:
He was the guy. He still is.
Doug Shafer:
Still is. So, you're still at Simi, you're there and you are VP of, winemaker VP starting out, then you moved up the ranks. Did you become president at some point?
Zelma Long:
I did. I, I, I said that when I interviewed for the job I told them, "I didn't just want to be your winemaker, I wanted to be vice president-winemaker," this was not a big piece. (laughs) But I put it out there, and I also said that eventually if that possibility came along, I might like to consider being president, which of course I wasn’t really interested in at that time, but it seemed like a good thing, just to say.
Doug Shafer:
I think that was a good move. And it worked out.
Zelma Long:
It did work out.
Doug Shafer:
You became president.
Zelma Long:
Yeah, I did. I worked as winemaker for 10 years. You, um, asked earlier how I came to acquire such good assistance. And I think it was, um, several things. I was looking for people who had good strong education, who had worked for good wineries, um, ideally, had, had worked overseas. So, people that had, a, a drive to excel.
Doug Shafer:
I got to interrupt you, why overseas? I'm curious.
Zelma Long:
This wasn't quite so true at that time but since I was at Simi and, and hiring people, that was the ‘80s, in the ‘70s, you could sell any wine you made, in the 80s, in the 80s, we begin to learn about wine growing, but I felt that I, someone who worked with me needed to have a broad vision of the world. First of all, they needed to know that there were different ways of doing things, that just because we did something one way, that doesn't mean it was the right way, or the only way, because I always learned a lot. I traveled overseas, visiting wineries and vineyards frequently. Starting in 1973, I traveled to Germany, '76 I traveled to Bordeaux and Burgundy with, Andre Tchelistcheff and a group of, uh, wineries from Napa Valley and I've really valued those experience. You get, you get ideas, you hear perspectives. Of course nowadays, we know that what works for the winery down the road may not work for you because you have your vineyards, and your style and your issues. And so what, what's good for you in terms of procedures and facilities and people may not be good for someone else.
Doug Shafer:
Spot on. I, I am reminded about this all the time. I treasure our place and our grapes, and our location, and what the wines they make. And, um, that's what we do. And we do it really well, I was walking through the cellar this morning, we've got some hillside tanks fermenting. Elias goes, "Hey," I go while he goes hey, turn he hands me a beaker he goes, "Try this." Because you know, my days of daily winemaker are long gone, and I smell this beaker, it's, it's cabernet. It's probably about 5% sugars just wrapping up, and it's just Zelma. It was like, I smelled it and I tasted it, I looked at him I said, "Oh man," he goes "Yeah," I go, I just had memories like, I can't tell you come flooding back.
Doug Shafer:
Of all those years making line and checking those you know, the sugars once or twice a day during fermentation and pump it over more when depress it, when they go to barrel, and but, but the aroma of cabernet off these hills right outside this door here, when it's just about done fermenting. I mean, it's embedded in my being, and it's like, he's, I just, it was totally just, he goes "Hey, try this." I go, "Whoa, man that's sunspot," he goes. "Yeah, that sunspot go every year." It goes yeah, every year. You know, you know it's like, so, I'm sorry. I just went off on a tangent, but it's just, um, it's what we do.
Zelma Long:
It is, and I think that's what's attractive, fascinating, extraordinary about our business is, in essence, we're tuned into the fact that each piece of plant produces different characters and flavors. And it's our job to support that land and doing it and to, um, preserve and enhance those flavors in the winery. But it's different every year, and it's different with each plot of land, so you never get bored with your job, and then it's two different jobs. You know, at harvest, you're just working all the time. Uh, everything has to be done immediately. Grapes can't wait to be harvested. They have to be harvested when they're ready, you can't really plan, you just respond to the situation. To me, that's a very, very different way of working, it's respond and act. The rest of the year when you're bottling wine, you can plan, but not at harvest, it's very exciting. It's like two different jobs.
Doug Shafer:
It is. The list is predictable. (laughs) So, you know, where it's going. Um, uh, I talked to a friend of mine who's a lawyer, attorney, does trial work. He says, you know, you just never know when it's coming. You know, I mean, it's like you get the least Shafer, you get, you know, you know, when, you know when the good times are coming.
Zelma Long:
(laughs) when harvest is coming.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, exactly. It's a pretty good point. So Simi, you were at Simi for 20 years, 79 to 99.
Zelma Long:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Tell me, tell me what happened? You moved on.
Zelma Long:
Well, at the end of ‘99, is that what you're asking?
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Zelma Long:
Well, Phil and I, I have to go back actually to 1990 when I was invited to South Africa, by the Cape estate wine producers. And they had come through to visit the winery just as casual winemakers come through. Um, sometime in the previous year, and I take them on a tour and done a tasting and hosted a lunch like you do for people in your business. And apparently, they had liked what they saw, but they also had, and I found this so much later, they had visited other wineries who were not very hospitable. And that was during apartheid. And I think that's why. But I never thought about that, you know, these are wine people.
Doug Shafer:
They are wine people.
Zelma Long:
Anyway, they sent me a letter and said, "We'd like you to come out for and talk about the use of barrels in winemaking." They were pretty much out of touch with, uh, what was going on in the rest of the world about wine. Phil and I were engaged at that time, and we talked. And we said, "Yeah, let's go together, we'll take a vacation after," and so, I told them that he was coming, and they're like, "Oh, great. We'll bring you both, and we'll do a full-day seminar in wine making and wine growing." So we did that, the two of us. We did a full day presentation. It was fun. And then we went to three different areas in the wine country, where we would meet informally with winemakers. They would bring their wines, we taste them together, talk about them.
Zelma Long:
And um, I've, we've, we've found some wines, most particularly Sauvignon Blanc that was just fabulous and good red wines, but we thought these wines could be better, and we felt that the environment there, the um, soils, ancient soils, that the fact that Cape is surrounded by ocean, so it was the maritime climate with old soil. So, we thought and also lots of mountains. So, there wasn't any big span of vineyards like where you could plant 300 acres. The, the vineyards that were there were 10 acres, 20 acres. And they were all different because they had different aspects and different soils, different elevations. And there was, it seemed like there were a lot of possibilities. So, I would just like, you hear me, I'm just like oh, this is-
Doug Shafer:
This is cool. Yeah.
Zelma Long:
Something could be done here. And um, so we let, but with enthusiasm behind us. We of course, we're not enthusiastic about apartheid. But we were there at a very critical time. We were there, January of 1990 and February of 1990 Nelson Mandela was released from prison. And that was the beginning of the change. And if anyone wants to read a book about a great man, he wrote A Long Walk to Freedom, which is just, he was an extraordinary person. Um, and so, we were able, in our ensuing time in South Africa to see those social changes, thank goodness. But nonetheless, I was, I was excited to help the wines and the more about the potential than the wines themselves.
Zelma Long:
And then I so, I think because of my enthusiasm, I was invited back two different years to be a judge for South African Airways. So, the wineries would put their wines in for sale and, and in doing that I was able to taste a lot of different wines, and meet a lot of different people. Phil and I went, in the mid ‘90s, to an international conference. And I said to him, "You know, I think we are going to run out people to pay us. Why don't you get some consulting clients?" So he did, and that was 1996. And so, he has consulted for many of the top wineries in South Africa.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's great.
Zelma Long:
And one of them approached us, and he said, and asked if we would be interested in, in a joint venture. So, this was ‘97, I was going to retire in a couple years. So, it seemed like a good time to start something new.
Doug Shafer:
I see, I see. And so, that was the Vilafonte project?
Zelma Long:
That was the Vilafonte project. We bought, um, 100 acres of raw land, um, Vilafonte was one of the soil types. And our partner at that time Backsberg, Phil laid out the vineyard, uh, we agreed on what varieties to plant, we agreed to Bordeaux varietals were the ones that were going to work well in this site we had and sell well in future, and they were also varieties that we were very comfortable in working with. People have asked us why we didn't do pinotage. Pinotage this a very specific, um, South African grape, which is tricky to manage, and we wanted to work with something we felt we could do very well. So, Phil got the vineyards and all the technical details, um, Michael Back planted, and that was the start of our program. Our first harvest was 2003.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. So, you were, did you live over there for a while? Or you went just back and forth?
Zelma Long:
We went just back and forth.
Doug Shafer:
Because for some reason I thought you guys were both living over there. (laughs)
Zelma Long:
Well, we have always gone for, our harvest is in February. So, we've always gone over, Phil goes over in early January, and leaves at the end of Feb. I go over in late January and leave in middle to the end of March. So, between the two of us we cover a, a lot of territory, and spend a lot of time, and then for many years, we've returned in their winter, our summer for a couple weeks. And then we returned, as we are getting ready to do, in November to blend the vintage, so this November I'll be blending the 2019 vintage that we made in February.
Doug Shafer:
How fun. You're still making wine. Look at you. So, you've got that going. And um, that's been going for, gosh, over 10 years, I think.
Zelma Long:
That has been going for 22 years.
Doug Shafer:
22 years? Oh, I'm, I'm a decade off. Wow, that's fantastic. And meanwhile, you've consulted with lots of different wineries around the world, actually, over the years.
Zelma Long:
I want to do this back up and tell you something about Vilafonte. We did that project because we could build our own vineyard and wines from scraps together and we could invest our expertise in an area that we thought could make great wines, and we wanted to make great wines, and we wanted to make wines of international significance. This year, a wine judge in South Africa, entered our 2016 series C, which is a Cabernet based blend into the six nations wine challenge. It's a wine challenge where each nation has a judge who decides what top wines should be entered in this competition. So, there is South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, uh, Canada, Chile and the United States. And we won the trophy in the Bordeaux category in that competition.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. Congratulations.
Zelma Long:
So we have done-
Doug Shafer:
You've done it.
Zelma Long:
What we wanted to do. We've had lots of, um, recognition in South Africa and Europe, but that's really in a sense, the first global, um, recognition that we've gotten. So, I just wanted to mention that.
Doug Shafer:
I think, no, I'm glad you mentioned it, good for you. You worked hard. Well, that's how dreams come true. A lot of work.
Zelma Long:
Persistence. Focus.
Doug Shafer:
So, are you still consulting with many, many people?
Zelma Long:
No. Um, I have two clients currently. I stopped focusing on consulting in 2009 when I decided to go back to school, and get my PhD, and I didn't really have the time. So, I've carried a few clients along.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. But you mentioned this when, when we're walking in the door today. You're, you're you're writing your dissertation right now?
Zelma Long:
I'm finishing.
Doug Shafer:
Finishing the dissertation. A PhD, and so, one would think, gee has to do with wine, right? It's got to be-
Zelma Long:
People too, think that.
Doug Shafer:
So what are you doing now? You went back to school.
Zelma Long:
I am majoring in performance with a minor in Native American Studies. And my dissertation is called “The Performance and Transmission of Art in a Six Generation Native American Family of Artists.” I was, I, I, I wanted to do, to do art. Art has always been a side passion for me. When we went to Tibet, we love Tibetan art. In South Africa, we know South African artists. And so of course, I'm always an optimist and went over to Davis and I'm thinking that I could major in art, no, get a PhD. I didn't want to just, you know, study it, I want a PhD. No previous training, or education in art, none, zero. And I met this wonderful professor who said to me, "Why don't you major in performance and then that way you could look at the performance of artists, how they do, what they do, what they've done." And in fact, my interest is in the artist. How did they, how did they do? Where do the ideas come from? You know, how do they see? Where's that creative energy?
Doug Shafer:
Right, right, right.
Zelma Long:
And same time, I've always been interested in Native Americans. Starting, when my parents gave me a turquoise bracelet from the southwest.
Doug Shafer:
That'll do it.
Zelma Long:
Right. So, that's, that was time consuming.
Doug Shafer:
Just a whole new, just, just expand your horizons.
Zelma Long:
Well, I told you that I thought when, I spent my whole, uh, life in science and agriculture and thought, well, you know, I shouldn't run to help my knowledge with the focusing on liberal arts. So, that was the interest in art and not thinking about wanting to have a complete education, and experience.
Doug Shafer:
And, but you do know though, that you just told me you had no, no experience in art, no education in art, but you've been an artist for a long, long time with your beautiful wines. (laughs)
Zelma Long:
That's true. And she, she actually said to me, "You know, you could do your PhD, studying the performance of winemakers." I certainly could have, but I wanted to do something new.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, me too. Yeah, I've done too many winemakers. (laughs) Oh Zelma, this is great. Hey, if people out there want to find some of your wines, your Vilafonte wines, is there a way to do that easily? How would they do it?
Zelma Long:
Easily, there's a website called Cape Ardor. Cape Ardor. Cape, C-A-P-E, Ardor, A-R-D-O-R.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Perfect.
Zelma Long:
Dot com, and that carries a large selection of South African wines always including ours. (laughs) And you know, as you know, it's wonderful to have a place you could point to where people can get your wine.
Doug Shafer:
That's what people write me about they say, "Hey, you just talked to so and so we forgot to tell us where to get their wine," so that's why we do it.
Zelma Long:
Capeardor.com. Vilafonte. And we make two wines, a Series C, which is a cabernet based wine. That also has, um, Merlot and Cab Franc with a little bit of Malbec and Series M, which is about two thirds Merlot and Malbec with the foundation of Cabernet.
Doug Shafer:
Perfect. Sounds good.
Zelma Long:
Oh, one more.
Doug Shafer:
One more?
Zelma Long:
Seriously Old Dirt, is our wine that we make from young vineyards, and from pressed wine and it's delicious. Our wines are delicious.
Doug Shafer:
Delicious is what it's all about. That's the goal. It's actually called Seriously Old Dirt, is the name of the wine?
Zelma Long:
Correct. And the reason-
Doug Shafer:
I like that name.
Zelma Long:
Is because when Phil first saw this property, he said this is seriously old dirt.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Zelma Long:
And our partner Mike is the marketing and sales and manager (laughs) thought that was a good name for a label and he's right.
Doug Shafer:
That's great. I love it. Uh, say hi to Phil for me.
Zelma Long:
I will do.
Doug Shafer:
And thank you so much for coming in. It was great.
Zelma Long:
It's been a pleasure.
Doug Shafer:
Thanks.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Hey everybody. Doug Shafer again. Back with another episode of The Taste. Um, really happy to have a friend of mine who I don't see often enough. A fellow vintner; neighbor just down the road, Randy Lewis of Lewis Cellars. Randy, welcome. Randy Lewis: Thank you. Great to be here.
Doug Shafer:
Um, I gotta tell you a story. I th- you know I've been doing this a long time. It was back in the '90s, mid to late '90s. I started hearing about this new winery; this new Cabernet, Lewis. Elias, I go, "Do you know Lewis?" He goes, "Oh, I don't know Lewis." "I- I'm- It's good, I've heard it's good." So we went out to lunch and had a bottle and yeah, it was really good. And it was like, so I'm talking to the- the wine buyer there and I say, "Who is- who is- who is this guy? You know, where does this come from?" He goes, "Oh, it's this guy Randy Lewis. He used to, you know, race- you know, race cars. Race car driver." Yeah, I looked at him. I looked at Elias, I said, "Jesus, a race car driver making wine? You gotta be kidding me."
Doug Shafer:
And then I was driving back to the winery, I thought, "Well, my dad was- published text books and (laughs) he became a wine maker too." So I realized it's like, "Hey, you know, everybody's story's- everybody's got a different background." Randy Lewis: A lot of ways to get there.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. So, help me out. Where- where were you born? Where'd you grow up? Randy Lewis: Atlanta, Georgia.
Doug Shafer:
Atlanta, Georgia- Randy Lewis: Actually, born in Charlotte, um, 'cause my mom was from Charlotte and she was there and my dad was in the war, so born in Charlotte but moved back to Atlanta pretty quickly.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. So you're dad was in the war. What service? Randy Lewis: Uh, the Navy.
Doug Shafer:
Navy. Randy Lewis: Navy, in the Pacific-
Doug Shafer:
Got it. And siblings? Randy Lewis: Two sisters.
Doug Shafer:
Two sisters. So what was, uh, childhood like, growing up... Randy Lewis: Well...
Doug Shafer:
...in Atlanta? Randy Lewis: (laughs) I mean, there were some good parts and bad parts (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Well, t- tell me- tell me both (laughs). Randy Lewis: Well, my mom and dad broke up pretty early so...
Doug Shafer:
Okay- Randy Lewis: ... um, my mom tried to raise me and had a rough time. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Why would she have a... Now, come on Randy. Why would- you're a nice guy. I've known you for years. Wh- wh- what- what- what was going on? Randy Lewis: Well, I was a little crazy, especially in cars.
Doug Shafer:
So the car thing started early? Randy Lewis: It did.
Doug Shafer:
Like at age 16? Randy Lewis: Yep. Even before when a friend could drive and I'd just be shotgun.
Doug Shafer:
All right. But before we get to cars, s- hi- school. Sports? Activities? Randy Lewis: You know, I wasn't very good at sports.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: Um, I was- the only thing I did well in the state competition was wrestling.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: So I was a pretty good wrestler. I mean, I played all the sports. I played baseball. My dad was an excellent athlete so, of course, he was disappointed when I was not an excellent athlete, but um...
Doug Shafer:
Yeah- Randy Lewis: ... because he was a star pitcher. Number one in the state in tennis.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. Randy Lewis: Um, so I tried 'em all and just wasn't very good.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, you know, we've all got our own stuff. So, with the car thing, was it driving, or were you like totally a mechanic guy tearing engines apart and all that stuff? Randy Lewis: Nah, I didn't like working on the cars. I had to-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: ... when I started racing professionally because I didn't- I couldn't afford to pay somebody, but-
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: No, I just loved driving 'em.
Doug Shafer:
So you're 16 and you're hot-rodding around Atlanta, and th- the police probably get to know you. Randy Lewis: They- they do.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Okay. (laughs). Randy Lewis: There was a funny one, one time. I- when I graduated from high school, we went out and we decided we'd just have a little fun with the police, and we didn't- I didn't drink back then.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: I mean nothing-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah- Randy Lewis: ... didn't have a beer until I got in college. So we were sober. Um, so we found this guy and we just ran the stop sign right by him.
Doug Shafer:
A- a policeman? Randy Lewis: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
You saw him and said, "we're just gonna do this on purpose." Randy Lewis: We're gonna run the stop sign-
Doug Shafer:
Okay- Randy Lewis: ... see if he can catch us. But he didn't- he didn't tur- he didn't... So we thought well he's asleep.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Randy Lewis: He must be asleep. So we went by, beeped our horn and ran it again.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Randy Lewis: And then the fun began.
Doug Shafer:
You beeped your horn and ran it again? Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
How many guys in the car? Randy Lewis: Just my friend and I.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And you're dr- you're driving- Randy Lewis: And so- and so it was a slow news day because it wasn't the same cop we kept seeing. They- they brought in dozens of police cars eventually. And we went in behind the guy's house and thought, "Well, we'll hide here for a while." And then a helicopter arrived.
Doug Shafer:
So they were chasing you all over town- Randy Lewis: Yeah-
Doug Shafer:
... up to twelve cop cars. Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
And you're s- you're just graduated from high school. Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Your poor mother. (laughs). Randy Lewis: Yeah, I know. I know. So anyway, the officer gets out. It's officer MacGuarder. Actually, I'll never forget because he gave me my first ever ticket and he said, uh, "Well, John," cause that was my name; John R. Lewis. "I guess you weren't speeding this time either, huh?" (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Randy Lewis: So kinda funny.
Doug Shafer:
That's pretty good. So what was the, uh, consequence? Randy Lewis: Nothing. My dad got me off.
Doug Shafer:
Oh jeez, jeez. Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So- so it starts. Randy Lewis: I didn't hurt anything. You know-
Doug Shafer:
That's good. That's good- Randy Lewis: ... we didn't crash into cars or-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: ... or, yeah. It was just fun.
Doug Shafer:
Well good, okay. I- I can relate to... I can relate, totally. So after high school. Wh- where to then? Randy Lewis: Well, see, I was gonna be a doctor. And so I took, you know, like Latin in high school and German derivatives and blah, blah, blah. And so I went to Vanderbilt and, fo-
Doug Shafer:
Right- Randy Lewis: ... and pre-med. And did two years of pre-med and realized, I don't wanna be a doctor. So, then I went to University of Florida to have fun. Had a little too much fun (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Randy Lewis: I was on the Dean's List. But I was on his bad list too, so (laughs). I had a motorcycle and the police never caught me on that thing either (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Did you like, beep beep and run a stop sign? Did you- Randy Lewis: No we just...
Doug Shafer:
You just were going fast? Just going fast- Randy Lewis: ... yeah, we were just going fast.
Doug Shafer:
The Dean- the Dean and you were on a first name basis? Randy Lewis: We were.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. I think I got it, I'm piecing this together. Randy Lewis: Then it was time to move on.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: So, um, I dropped out of school for a while. Uh, went to Europe. Worked in London for a little bit at an accounting firm. Took a little bit too long a vacation.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: (laughs) So I just kept vacationing. So I- I lived over there til my money ran out, until I lost like 30 pounds ... eating on a dollar day in Paris.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. So you're like how old? 23, four? Randy Lewis: Well, you know, well 18- no well 20. Yeah, 21.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) All right, so, money runs out in Europe. Randy Lewis: Yeah, so I have to come back.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: I sell shoes in Atlanta for a little bit, just to get enough money to leave again. Then I drive across country. End up in the Haight-Ashbury for one night. Didn't have a good night (laughs). So I got on a plane to Hawaii. Just odd jobs over there. Hung Out. And then after about nine months, went, "You know, everybody's disappointed in me. I might as well at least finish school." So all the people I was partying with were from San Jose State, so went to San Jose State.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: Uh, got my BS degree there and uh, then went to, uh- and then started racing at that time.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, so that's, yeah- that was- I was thinking about you last night. So, when did that kick in. So you- you got outta- you got your BS. You s- cleaned up your act a little bit and that's when you started- you started racing. So were you like, doing any racing before then- Randy Lewis: No, nothing-
Doug Shafer:
...at all? Randy Lewis: No, nothing. You know, m- m- most kids start with go carts and stuff like that.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: My family wouldn't let me have a go cart. Um, so I didn't drive a race car til I was 24, which is pretty old. And I helped a friend work on his car and he said, "Well, you know I've never won a race in this car. Why don't you take it out and go through driver's school and give it a shot." So I won like 12 or 13 races in the West Coast Championship and went, I said, "I like this."
Doug Shafer:
Now, okay. That's- all right. Y- You go out, you start winning races. What kind of car, car was it? Randy Lewis: Lotus 23B. C Sports Racing.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, all right. Now you're talking like Greek to me. So don't do that to me. Randy Lewis: Yeah. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So is that like a Formula 1 type car? Randy Lewis: No, it's a little two-seater enclosed wheel, made in England.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: Lotus.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, okay - Randy Lewis: Really famous. The 23B was really famous sports c- little sports car.
Doug Shafer:
So everybody's got the same car? Randy Lewis: No. No, there were Elvas, there were all kinds of little cars.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And so, okay, so this- this other guy's car. You're driving it? Randy Lewis: Yep.
Doug Shafer:
And when you win do you get money? Randy Lewis: No.
Doug Shafer:
Huh. Okay. Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Now you see where I'm going with this? Randy Lewis: Yeah-
Doug Shafer:
So- Randy Lewis: No, I sold my little cute sports car that I had in Europe and bought a friend's Pontiac station wagon for almost nothing, but it had a big enough motor so I could tow my trailer.
Doug Shafer:
Cuz in your trailer is the race car? Randy Lewis: Yep, yep.
Doug Shafer:
All right, so you're just going race to race? Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, what are you living on? Randy Lewis: Well I'm still in school.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, okay. Randy Lewis: So I'm still going to school.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Randy Lewis: So my family helped me through school.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: But they didn't help me after school.
Doug Shafer:
Right. (laughs) Randy Lewis: So, um, I w- I went to- then I went to Berkeley, uh, to graduate school, uh, to work on my MBA.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: And, I was not having a good time. And not doing great either. B - C's. And there was a series that read about called the, uh, Formula B Continental Series that ran in America and Canada and they paid you. Y- y- you could earn some prize money.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Randy Lewis: I mean we're talking hundreds of dollars. But it would pay for me to sleep in my van, work on my car, and it'd pay for a set of tires occasionally. So I'd live in my van did the whole series.
Doug Shafer:
And the series is going, what towns are we talking? We talking Canada and Western U.S. Randy Lewis: Oh we're talking- yeah, we're talking Minnesota, Wisconsin, Canada, California, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Is there like a- Randy Lewis: Ohio-
Doug Shafer:
... week a- a race every week? Every... Randy Lewis: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Probably every two weeks.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. So, there's a bunch of other guys like you doing the same thing? Randy Lewis: Yep. There were a lot of wealthy guys too-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah- Randy Lewis: ... that didn't live in their van. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) So you did that. How long did you do that for? Randy Lewis: Just for one season.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: And then I was rookie of the year. Qualified on the front row for the last race at Mooseport, Canada and got noticed by a Formula 2 team in Europe.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. This is cool. So a s- a European team notices you cuz you're doing really well? Randy Lewis: Yep.
Doug Shafer:
I think you're being way modest. I think you were like kicking butt- Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... so it sounds like you were. So, so you're coming up through the ranks. You're doing really well. Where'd you be- where'd you learn to be such a good driver? Randy Lewis: I just-
Doug Shafer:
Running away from cops? Randy Lewis: Yep. I guess.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Oh no. Randy Lewis: A racetrack's totally different though.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: Cuz on the street you're not really on the limit cuz you don't wanna crash, whereas on the racetrack... well you don't wanna crash on the racetrack either, but you gotta push the limits, to the max.
Doug Shafer:
So you're- got it. Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And you had no problem doing that? Randy Lewis: No.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, so- so when they- you say they notice you, they're... so it's a team, they're looking for drivers? Is, um- is that the right- Randy Lewis: Well, he just, you know, uh, great guy. Um, uh, but unfortunately when I- so I sold everything I had over here, which was just the race car and the van.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: Moved to London and didn't get th- the- the ride didn't materialize. So, I went knocking on doors and, uh, found Wrangler jeans.
Doug Shafer:
Huh. Randy Lewis: And Wrangler sponsored me. So, I did three years in Formula 3 over there on the Grand Prix circuit.
Doug Shafer:
So Formula 3. Help me. Formula 1 is? Randy Lewis: Formula 3- Formula 1's the ultimate. Formula 3 is not even close performance-wise and so forth, but every world ch- every future world champion for the next three, four, five years came out of Formula 3.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Randy Lewis: So I ran against Jody Scheckter, Alan Jones, James Hunt. Everybody knows James Hunt-
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: ... because of the movie.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: Um, so I was running against them every weekend. And-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: ... I'd beat 'em some of the time. Not as much as they beat me, obviously. That's why-
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: ... they become the Formula 1 World Champion. But they were a lot younger too. Nobody really wanted a 27 year old Formula 1 driver, you know, so...
Doug Shafer:
A 27 year old? In that, that game? Randy Lewis: Oh, really old. I mean all these other kids were... and now people are winning races at 17 years old in Formula 1. You know, so.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. Randy Lewis: Yeah. So I got a late start.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, but- Randy Lewis: But it was good. I was the fastest American over there. So I got paid starting money to come to the races. Um, I did about 26 races a year. Monte Carlo, Nurburgring, Brands Hatch; all the famous ones. Jackie Stewart was my teammate in a sense, in that Wrangler- he was on all the Wrangler posters and I was the lackey, you know? (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Why didn't they put you on a poster. You were a good looking guy- Randy Lewis: I was on a poster-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, okay good. Randy Lewis: Yeah, yeah-
Doug Shafer:
I was gonna say, you're a handsome dude- Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Come on. So he's Jackie Stewart, so he's- he's got an accent and long hair. Big deal. Randy Lewis: I- I- I'll tell you one f- funny side story. You know, I lived in England and you know what randy means in, in London or England, right?
Doug Shafer:
Yes, yep. Randy Lewis: Okay. So, because my last name was Lewis, and it can be pronounced very s- very similarly to Levis, um, they couldn't use my last name. So, all the posters said Randy is coming.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Oh, my gosh. In Lon- in London. Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, God, that's great. That's too funny. So, let's go- so when they sponsor you... I'm just kinda, this is curious, just curious about the business. So when they sponsor you, basically, they're covering expenses, living expenses- Randy Lewis: They give me X amount-
Doug Shafer:
... they give a salary- Randy Lewis: ... they give me X amount of money-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: ... and I have to make it work.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Randy Lewis: Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. But equipment- Randy Lewis: I mean, we wouldn't have much money-
Doug Shafer:
... are they paying for equipment? They paying for the cars and all that? Or is that part of your deal? Randy Lewis: Yeah it covered pretty much all that the first year. The second year they gave me almost twice as much and I bought a BMW and hired a crew and stayed in hotels, and- but, you know, it's peanuts by comparison today, but ... I was also making money at the races, so. Once again, not a lot. Maybe 700 bucks here, a thousand bucks there, but-
Doug Shafer:
Hey- Randy Lewis: ... paid the bills-
Doug Shafer:
...Yeah, it's- it's a living so, another, kind of, just curiosity question. So you said, you hired the crew, so basically your pit crew, the guys taking care of the cars, the mechanics, the whole thing. You're the boss? Randy Lewis: Yeah-
Doug Shafer:
Or is it- there's not some other guy kind of- Randy Lewis: No-
Doug Shafer:
... general manager-type running the whole show. Randy Lewis: No, no.
Doug Shafer:
So y- you're running the show. Randy Lewis: The first- the first, uh, year, um, I- well the first two years I lived in the back of my van.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: It was just me. Um, I didn't have a mechanic. I- I slept on a- a cot that folded out from the- from the wall, a Navy cot that I built.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Randy Lewis: And all my equipment was in there. And I would drive to the race and work on the car and-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: ... hop in it and buckle myself in and race.
Doug Shafer:
So, okay. So you- Randy Lewis: So I didn't have a crew til the third year.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. So, it's the third year. That was three years in Europe with Wrangler. Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And then you came back to the states? Randy Lewis: Yep.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. How'd- how'd that happen? Randy Lewis: Well, th- th- they had the fuel econ- they had, um... the economy waddn't doing well in the end of '73, '74. Fuel crisis I think.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: And, um, so it was- they weren't gonna give me a Formula 2 ride and I'd already done Formula 3 for three years. So I came back to America and did Formula 5000.
Doug Shafer:
What's- Randy Lewis: And Wrangler jeans sponsored me in that.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. What's the 5000, again? Randy Lewis: It's like- it's like a cheap Formula 1 car.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: It's got lots of horsepower. It looks like a Formula 1 car, just not as tricked out. You know-
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: ... not all the... I mean, it doesn't cost $500 Million. It costs, you know, maybe $100 grand-
Doug Shafer:
Hundred thousand, yeah- Randy Lewis: ... two hundred grand.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Randy Lewis: So, um, yeah, so I drove that for a nu- for several years. Not every race cuz I didn't find sponsors for every race. So my whole life was actually just on the phone calling Europe, the East Coast, the Midwest, the west coast, and Asia, looking for money.
Doug Shafer:
So, even though they sponsor- the Wrangler was sponsoring, you still had to find additional sponsors? Randy Lewis: Well no. When they were, but they didn't sponsor me in every race every year.
Doug Shafer:
I see, okay. Randy Lewis: And then there were some gaps in there too where I didn't drive at all. Um, Cribari Wine of all people sponsored me for two years in the Can-Am, which was pretty funny.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Randy Lewis: Uh, nice people.
Doug Shafer:
Great. Randy Lewis: And, um, so that was '81, '82, I ran in the Can-Am series.
Doug Shafer:
And somewhere along the way, we met Debbie, your bride. Wh... Randy Lewis: Yeah, met Debbie in '78 at a wine tasting. Um, I was up talking about this 24 bottles of Manil tasting we did. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So you were- so you- this- so you were promoting wine at that time? Randy Lewis: No, just enjoying it.
Doug Shafer:
Just enjoying it? Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: Cuz when I lived in Europe, you know, I'd stop in little wine towns-
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Randy Lewis: ... and hang out, uh, and drink during non-racing times, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I'm with you. Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And so, uh, you guys met at wine tasting. Randy Lewis: Yeah. So, um, she said, "You know I have a lot of Bordeaux. Um, maybe we should do a tasting." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
There you go. Randy Lewis: So anyway, we got to know each other a little bit and, um, then, um, you know she was divorced and so, um, we dated a little bit in '79. And then we lived together for five years.
Doug Shafer:
And this was when you were back racing the 5000s? Randy Lewis: Well, you know- well, no 5000 was over by then.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: 5000 was over in like '76. So I did a little Can-Am racing in '77, '78, '79 just a race here and race there, not- not much. Didn't have any money and I-
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: Didn't have any money. Um, was living in a- on a friend's- on a mattress on a friend's floor that had a spare room. So, um, that's where I was in '78-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah- Randy Lewis: ... when I met Debbie, so, (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) So that was good timing. Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
We got to find you a permanent place to sleep. Randy Lewis: I know-
Doug Shafer:
I'm concerned about that. Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
All right, so you guys and- so you guys lived together, you got married in '85 you said? Randy Lewis: Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And she was helping you with your career, racing? Randy Lewis: She sure was-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: I'll tell you what. I didn't have-
Doug Shafer:
Wh- when did it take off? Wh- what was the- Randy Lewis: It took off financially, um... Well I didn't even do one race in '85.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: So I was basically completely broke. So, um, and Debbie didn't have a lot of money either. Um, so it was like, h- h- how are we getting married? We're broke.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah. Randy Lewis: (laughs) But we went, "Well what the heck, why not?"
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: Not racing this year. I got plenty of time to get married. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Randy Lewis: So, yeah, so we got married in Yosemite and, uh, just had close family up. And then the next year, I got the biggest sponsor of my life in a high tech company, Raychem.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. Randy Lewis: I mean, like, well more than all the other 17 years put together.
Doug Shafer:
And how's that happen? Th- they're looking for a racer or you're- you're calling them- Randy Lewis: Well I found 'em and I talked to 'em into it.
Doug Shafer:
So what's your pitch to these guys? What's in it for them? Randy Lewis: I said, uh, "Put a marketing man behind the wheel of a race car and you've got a combination you can't beat in the marketplace." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Look at you. You should sell wine (laughs) Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Wow. And they bought it. Randy Lewis: Yep. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
Okay, cuz you win big. You got that Raychem all over with that car. Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, all right. So now you've got- now you've got a great sponsor- Randy Lewis: Now I've got a great sponsor.
Doug Shafer:
... you've got great equipment. Randy Lewis: ... and then in '87, I pick up Toshiba and they give me more money than the- than the first 18 years combined.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. Randy Lewis: And they sponsored me a couple a years, but they wanted me to do the Indy 500, which I really didn't wanna do, um.
Doug Shafer:
Huh. Randy Lewis: Well, I'd seen t- too many people die, an- and also, I'd never done an oval in my life, so-
Doug Shafer:
Right, 'cause Formula One is all, right- Randy Lewis: ... at twenty, um, so I'm what, um, 43- 43- 42 years old at that stage, and never having driven Indy or an oval.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, this is interesting to me, because I'm not a- you know, I don't follow car racing. But, you know, I grew up, you know, watching the Indy 500, you know, as a kid, that was like the Kentucky Derby, that's Superbowl. You gotta watch that. And so, to hear you say, it's like "I never want to do the Indy 500," is- is, kind of, surprises me, but- Randy Lewis: Well, yeah-
Doug Shafer:
... your next co- your next comment was, "People die in that race," so. Randy Lewis: Well, people die, uh, people died, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: ... people died when I was racing Formula 3 in Europe. It was just what, you know, things wer- weren't safe back then.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Randy Lewis: But anyway, so I did it. I took my rookie test and, um, I don't know if you know what white-walling the tires is, but it's, you know, it's- it's- it's taking, um, a piece of paint off the wall, like as thin as a razor blade, but not hurting the car. And-
Doug Shafer:
It's called white-walling- Randy Lewis: ... white-walling the tires-
Doug Shafer:
... white-walling the tires- Randy Lewis: ...Uh-huh (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
Doesn't sound really safe to me, but keep going- Randy Lewis: No, no. It's- you wouldn't wanna do it and I thought, "You know, this is so cool, I thought I'd be afraid and I'm not afraid."
Doug Shafer:
And you're going like 180 miles an hour? Randy Lewis: Over 200.
Doug Shafer:
Over 200, okay. Randy Lewis: At this stage.
Doug Shafer:
Keep going- Randy Lewis: Later, it was 230, but it was just around 200, 205. And they told me, "Do that again, you're outta here," and I went, "What do you mean, man, I'm- I didn't crash the car, I just took paint off the wall."
Doug Shafer:
Oh. Randy Lewis: (laughs) So anyway, I shaped up, and uh, put it in the show.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: And, uh, p- put it in the show the next five Indys.
Doug Shafer:
You faced five Indianapolis- Randy Lewis: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Doug Shafer:
... 500s? Wow. Was it great? Randy Lewis: It was great.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: You wouldn't think after doing the Nurburgring with, you know, 30, 40, 50 turns, however you wanna count 'em, uh, that turning left four times would be exciting, but it's really exciting. You're averaging 225. I mean (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, 225 you just wanna- Randy Lewis: ... a football field a second-
Doug Shafer:
... and you wanna keep it on the tr- track- Randy Lewis: Yeah-
Doug Shafer:
... and you've got a whole lot of other people really close to you doing the same thing. Randy Lewis: Yep.
Doug Shafer:
Well my hats off to you, but I'm- I'm not gonna head that way- Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Wow. So five Indys- Randy Lewis: Five Indys-
Doug Shafer:
... and then you retired? Randy Lewis: Then I retired.
Doug Shafer:
After 20, 23 years? Randy Lewis: 23 years. Yeah, you know, I had a- I had a big crash in '91 and it- and it- it, um- I was driving a car that'd been crashed by the previous driver and it wasn't repaired properly. I mean, obviously, I thought it had been. They told me it had been, but anyway, as I turned into turn one on my first qualifying lap, uh, the rear suspension collapsed and I hit the wall about 225.
Doug Shafer:
Oh. Randy Lewis: Didn't get hurt at all, not a sore neck, nothing. Um, they cleared me to drive, but my team wouldn't give me the next car-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: ... that weekend. I had to wait till the next weekend. Um, but put it in the show, you know, again.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: I didn't quit cuz I was tired of driving or that it scared me. It didn't scare me. It just was, "I don't have a great sponsor for next year, I'm sick of spending every day in my office looking for money."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: I'm 20- I'm 46 years old. Um, I'm gonna have to do something else eventually and I'll never want to do something else eventually, so let's just get going.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, makes sense.
Doug Shafer:
Well, yeah. You're 46? Randy Lewis: I was 46 my last Indy, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. That's the time. You know, my dad was 48. It's like, "I wanna do something new." Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Good for you. Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Well I'm glad you got out. In one piece. Randy Lewis: Yeah!
Doug Shafer:
I mean, y- you know, you weren't afraid, but sitting here listening to you talk about, I'm afraid (both laughing). So, so, you get out and what- what's next? Obviously wine somehow. Randy Lewis: Well, you know, we help a friend of ours, our best friend, um-uh. When I was looking for sponsorship, um, I met- well I met um, I was playing racquetball with Larry Ellison when he was at Amdahl.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: And so they would let me use their computers at what was Relational Software Inc. back then. I mean after Amdahl, when they started Relational Software Inc. And, so they'd let me come in at night and use their computers to put out my proposals and stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: So we became good friends, uh, became good friends with Bob Miner as well-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay. Randy Lewis: ...and then when things went public and everybody made a lot of money, Bob bought a place up here in '89.
Doug Shafer:
He was with Oracle, right? Randy Lewis: Yeah, exactly.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, got it. Randy Lewis: And, he said, "Help!" And I said, "Bob I can't help you, I'm racing cars." He said, "Well help me a little bit and when you quit, we'll make a lot of wine." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Really?! Now, had you ever made wine before? Randy Lewis: Never.
Doug Shafer:
So, okay, help me- Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
All right, he's a smart guy, Oracle- Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
He's gotta a lot a money and he calls you for help- Randy Lewis: Yep.
Doug Shafer:
...to say, "Help." Why doesn't he call like a wine maker person? Randy Lewis: Well I put that together; I found him a wine maker.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: Found a vineyard manager.
Doug Shafer:
I see. Randy Lewis: I sold the grapes that we didn't want to keep for his winery. Debbie and I took him national, um, after I quit racing, uh, we put him in like 35 states and a- built up the brand pretty good. Um, but Bob got cancer in '93 and passed away in '94. So, it was time for Debbie and I to do our own thing.
Doug Shafer:
And his place was Oakville Ranch. Randy Lewis: It was.
Doug Shafer:
Gorgeous property. Randy Lewis: Unbelievable.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Okay, so, at this point, while doing all this business for him, you're obviously you're learning the business- Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
...know it so, so what's your, Debbie and you, what's your next step? Randy Lewis: Well, we had made a wine called "Lewis Select" under the Oakville Ranch label because we wanted to try, Debbie and I, wanted to try different stuff with Chard and Cab-
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: ...then we were doing. And, so basically, you know, I worked a deal out with Bob to buy that from him because it was still in-barrel and just make it "Lewis Cellars" instead of "Lewis Select".
Doug Shafer:
Okay. So you're getting grapes from that ranch- Randy Lewis: Yep.
Doug Shafer:
...as you've started, and this is what year, what year did you start Lewis Cellars? Randy Lewis: Well, nine- with the '92 vintage.
Doug Shafer:
'92 vintage? Randy Lewis: Uh-hum, '92 Cab, '92 Chard.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Yeah. That's when I started hearing about you. Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
A race car driver making wine, what are you talking about. Did you ever, were you ever racing and doing the wine thing at the same time? Or- Randy Lewis: Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. We were helping Bob in-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: ...'90 and '91 while I was still driving.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: Just not full time-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Got it. Randy Lewis: ...you know, cuz racing was full time. But, putting stuff together, hiring people, um, working on selling the grapes that were excess and that sort of stuff.
Doug Shafer:
So Randy, let me- let me get this straight. You're- you're kind of racing, still finishing up, but you're starting to help Bob, you know, Bob Miner get into the wine business 'cause he said come help me out. Randy Lewis: Right.
Doug Shafer:
But I mean this is a whole new gig for you. You've been a race car driver. What did you, I mean, how'd you know about getting into the wine business, you know, approaching people, selling wine. I mean, was- how did race car driving -help you? Did it help you do that or was there - Randy Lewis: I- it did help me do that, an- and even though I didn't finish my MBA, you know, being in the bus- you know, thinking about business, working on my MBA, um, helped me approach sponsors, feel more confident. Um, you know, talking to somebody about business and dealing with companies like Toshiba, Samsung, Oracle. Um, you know, I've been dealing with business people and selling them on sponsorship-
Doug Shafer:
Right- Randy Lewis: ... for quite some time, so I was already a salesman, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Where were you doing it? Randy Lewis: Selling rac- s- selling a racing sponsorship is way harder than selling wine (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
There you go. Okay, so you were- so you were a natural. So- so when you were calling distributors in Illinois or- Randy Lewis: Yeah-
Doug Shafer:
... New York, you've- you kinda know the drill? Randy Lewis: Yep, yep. And, um, you know a race team really, it sounds like racing is just completely different than wine making, but you know, i- it's not totally different.
Doug Shafer:
Huh- Randy Lewis: Um, number one, you have to have the same passion-
Doug Shafer:
Right- Randy Lewis: ... um, in both sports. Both sports, in both businesses. Number two, you've gotta have the best equipment to win a race. You need the best grapes-
Doug Shafer:
Right- Randy Lewis: ... to make the best wine. And you've gotta have a great crew, not just for your pit stops, but taking care of the car. You gotta have a great wine maker, assistant wine maker, you gotta have a great cellar- cellar crew.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Randy Lewis: So there are a lot of similari- similarities, um, and what it takes to be successful in racing and what it takes to run a winery.
Doug Shafer:
We- great analogy. I mean, you know, no one ever would have thought, thank y- I'm so glad you're here to get that thing straight. Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I'm with ya. Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Uh, jumping back to your racing days, you know, cuz you were living in your car and- Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
...in your van, and someones h- floor. When you and Debbie get married and you're doing the Indy 500, where was, where was home base for you guys? Randy Lewis: Hillsborough, because-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: ...we didn't have enough money to buy a place up here.
Doug Shafer:
But when, so when you were racing, you were still home-based in Hillsborough. Randy Lewis: Exactly.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. But the racing, I'm just, guess, think about traveling in the wine business. Racing travel, you're on the road like, 80% of the year. Randy Lewis: Yeah, you're on the road about 200 days a year.
Doug Shafer:
That's tough, that's- Randy Lewis: Yeah
Doug Shafer:
...enough to wear you out too.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. I was just kinda flash back on- Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
...that.
Doug Shafer:
So, um, so your back up here, starting Lewis Cellars, you've got grapes from Oakville, Oakville Ranch. Facility? Were you custom crushing? Randy Lewis: Custom crushing.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. And then when did you get into your current place? Randy Lewis: 2003.
Doug Shafer:
2003, and you know the history of that place. Randy Lewis: I do.
Doug Shafer:
Cuz that was Jay Corley, Monticello, built that place- Randy Lewis: For sparkling, right.
Doug Shafer:
For sparkling. I can't remember what year it was. Cuz we used to buy grapes from Jay at Monticello Vineyards, it's on Big Ranch Road. And they put up building, everybody says, "What's that?" "Corley built it." "What for, he's got a winery?" "He's gonna make sparkling wine." And we're all like, "Really?" Randy Lewis: Yeah, we call it the Faux Chateau.
Doug Shafer:
It is! Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
It's kinda cute. But, and then ah, the sparkling ou-didn-, it didn't work out. And, then ah, I think Tony- Randy Lewis: Tony Soter.
Doug Shafer:
Tony Soter. I don't know if he bought- Randy Lewis: Had it for ten years I think.
Doug Shafer:
Did he buy it? Randy Lewis: Nope, he didn't-
Doug Shafer:
He just leased it. Randy Lewis: ...he was leasing it.
Doug Shafer:
Tony Soter, when he started his brand called Etude- Randy Lewis: Yep.
Doug Shafer:
...was home-based there, which was great- great close by, so could drop in and see 'em and then you guys took over from there. Randy Lewis: We did.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: He was movin' out while we were movin' in cuz Beringer bought him, you know and-
Doug Shafer:
He- He bought him and they moved- Randy Lewis: ...took him to a nicer place-
Doug Shafer:
...to new facility- Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... down- down in Carneros, I remember that.
Doug Shafer:
And you're still there. Randy Lewis: We're still there.
Doug Shafer:
Great. Th- the Faux Chateau. Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
It's beautiful, it's cute.
Doug Shafer:
So you've been there, you moved in in 2004 you said? Randy Lewis: '03.
Doug Shafer:
'03. Randy Lewis: '03 was first- first crush.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. And so, um, at some point, oh no, you guys worked with some...uh..cuz, now are you, are you so- are you makin' the wine now? Randy Lewis: No, no, no. I, I made the wine for a few years-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: ...but I always had, except for a couple a years, I had consultants.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: Uh, you know. Helen Turley helped me in '96-
Doug Shafer:
Great. Randy Lewis: ...helped me finish off the '94 and '95 reds. And then Paul Hobbs helped me after that. And then, it turned out even with Helen, um, 'cause she had a bad him or knee or something. She couldn't get out in the vineyard, so I was the one doing all the sampling,-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: ...reporting back on how the vineyard looked. Then we'd taste together. Um, and then um, I would be the one at the press, um-
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: ...and, we kind of talked about what to do, but I was the guy tasting it and making the, the decisions. And then I was the one the vineyard, often times making the picking decisions because, you know -
Doug Shafer:
Cuz she's, well she's- she's running around, she's busy- Randy Lewis: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Paul was crazy too, uh, busy. So finally I said, well, you know, "Why don't I just do this, I mean, I'm kind of doin' it." (laughs) So I did. And so, I kinda did it until um, until. We moved over to Trefethen for one year because he had a building that he just built and were going to make that our barrel room, we bought our own equipment, you know, crush equipment-
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: ...had our own pad, and so that was going to be our home for a while until Etude became available.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: And John was like, "Hey, go for it." you know, so. Um, so then I needed a winemaker full time. I did not want to run the facility, you know, and manage the crew and do all that stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: Cuz, custom-crush is just a little different. So.
Doug Shafer:
So, who'd you get- who'd you get as winemaker? Randy Lewis: Back then?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: Robbie Meyer
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: Yep.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, yeah. He's been around. Randy Lewis: Yep.
Doug Shafer:
But, workin with- work, just quickly, cuz a couple great people you got to work with; Helen and Paul- Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
...I mean busy, crazy, stretched all the way out, but great wine people. What- what did you learn, what, anything special from each of them? What was... Randy Lewis: I learned, well (chuckles), um, I learned what to do and what not to do from both of 'em a little bit. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Randy Lewis: Um, but from Helen, the reason I hired Helen is I wanted to take us into another, just another league. I mean, not only another league, but just another concept on how you make wine.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: And she didn't care what the brix was, right. And she just wanted the tannins ripe-
Doug Shafer:
Uh-hum (affirmative) Randy Lewis: ...and the fruit ripe. And then she, you know, she didn't believe in fining and filtering and um, she liked native yeast, and um, so we carried almost all of that forward.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: Yeah. So, wh- I can't think of too many things we've changed except for the fact that since we have our own winery we can do, we have more tanks to do different things and do, you know, bettin 'em, drain and press-
Doug Shafer:
Right Randy Lewis: Or not drain and press, but um, um, I can't think of it right this second, but anyway um, you know where you pump the whole thing out into another tank and let it sit and then back in over the cap-
Doug Shafer:
Yep, yep. Randy Lewis: ...and all that sort of stuff. So we couldn't do that with her, but I, so I don't know if she would have done that or not, but, anyway. So we've done a few tweaks on our own, but basically, the concept is, push it.
Doug Shafer:
Push it, and, you know, we've go great fruit here in Napa, and we- Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
...you know, and we, I'm- I'm in your camp. We should maximize what we have here. We've got great flavors and you mentioned ripe tannins. That's something I've seen Elias move to over the last, well its been ten or fifteen years- Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
...maybe. P-A, on, wuh- what we're talking, we're all pickin' grapes right now. Harvest is just gettin' going, so we're all thinking about sampling and PH levels and brix levels in the grapes before we pick 'em. And, it's all important, but, taste and flavor, you know, what's- Randy Lewis: Right.
Doug Shafer:
...to put them in your mouth is important. But also the tannins, and it's tough to kinda, it's kind of a sensory thing with tannins, but it's chewing the sk- seeds, chewing the skins. Sounds kinda weird, but- Randy Lewis: Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Elias is out there chewing seeds and chewing skins, and he's like, "The tannins aren't there yet." Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And I said, I'm like, "Man these taste pretty good to me." He goes, "Nope, not yet." So- Randy Lewis: Yeah, that's-
Doug Shafer:
...that's why he's the winemaker. Randy Lewis: ...that's the last thing that happens I think, you know, um. You know, you get the sugar, you get the fruit character, but we don't want to be egg white fining or filtering or-
Doug Shafer:
Right- Randy Lewis: ...yeah, we'd rather just push it up through-
Doug Shafer:
...do it. Randy Lewis: ...whatever brix it takes and get it right in the vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
Just make it taste good. Randy Lewis: Yep.
Doug Shafer:
And then, Debbie's son, Dennis joined you guys- Randy Lewis: He did-
Doug Shafer:
...at some point. Randy Lewis: ...twenty years ago.
Doug Shafer:
It's been twenty years? Randy Lewis: Twenty years. And you know Debbie-
Doug Shafer:
Dennis Bell, great guy. Randy Lewis: Yep. (chuckles)
Doug Shafer:
I don't know him well enough. What's his role? Randy Lewis: His role, we hired him, he was in human resources and really didn't find his niche, I mean, he waddn't totally happy-
Doug Shafer:
Uh-hum (affirmative) Randy Lewis: ...and Debbie, you know, so w- w- we didn't start making money, obviously when you start a winery-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Randy Lewis: ...without a lot of money, you just put it back in, then put it back in, and put it back in.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: So, you go broke every year. Um, so we couldn't afford to hire him until '99. Then we started may- you know, we were up-ta, up-ta 9,000 cases, and, um, so we were making money, and so we hired him. Cuz it was just the two of us, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Just you and Debbie. Randy Lewis: Yeah, just Debbie and I. So we were custom-crushing obviously, so we didn't have any employees as such. And, we were running, you know, we were doing all the sales out of our home-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: ...down to the peninsula, that we hand-wrote every invoice. Um, and ah, called everybody, make sure we got paid (chuckles), um, so-
Doug Shafer:
Muh- my mother used to do that- Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
...can I tell you real fast one- Randy Lewis: Yeah, please.
Doug Shafer:
This is pretty cute. Um, you know, same era, you know, it's Shafer. It was my mom and dad and myself, and maybe one or two other people, and Elias. But we we're, didn't have room in the office, so my mom and dad had to share an office. And she did all the books and accountings and cuttin' checks and all that. And he's runnin' the show, and I'm makin' wine in the cellar with Elias. I remember walking into where they shared this office and they're, this is- Randy, this is just classic. So, dad's on the phone with somebody in New York or Boston. It's early in the morning, trying to talk him into, can you take twenty more cases, can you take twenty more ca- please, try to, you know, get somebody to order some wine and my mom's right there next to him, doing her thing. And she realizes she's on the phone with Boston. I'm not picking on you Boston- Randy Lewis: Right.
Doug Shafer:
...it could be anywhere, saying, "Hey, they're late, they owe us some money, they haven't paid yet." And so, and so, she's like yelling at 'em as he's on the phone with the guy- Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
"He's gotta pay." And he's, you know, oh God, it was just crazy. Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It was just wild, you know. Please pay us, please buy some more wine. Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Okay, I interrupted, so- Randy Lewis: You understand busy times, right?-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: ...Cuz we all started somewhere right?-
Doug Shafer:
Well, yeah. Randy Lewis: ...we all, it didn't just fly out the door in the beginning-
Doug Shafer:
No. Randy Lewis: ...necessarily.
Doug Shafer:
No. Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So you and Debbie, doing it all by yourselves. Randy Lewis: Yep.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And so, able to bring Dennis on board. Randy Lewis: Yep, so he, he was just. He didn't really have a title or anything, he would just do the stuff we didn't want to do (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) I like that. Randy Lewis: Yeah. So, after he got, you know, more involved and learned the business and stuff, then we would send him to markets we didn't want to go to anymore, cuz we went to every market, of course, to open 'em, right-
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: ...and, yeah, so. Um, and we were tired of going to twelve markets a year, or whatever, so, um. So, we'd send him on the road, um and sent him in California since we were winery-direct in California-
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: ...you know, we sold everything, just the two of us, so three of us didn't hurt. So that was it and then he worked his way up to General Manager, of course, he gave him that title. I don't know if he was really General Manager (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(chuckles) He gave himself that title? Randy Lewis: Yeah. (still laughing)
Doug Shafer:
I like that! Randy Lewis: But, you know, a couple years ago, um, he uh, I realized that, I mean, I didn't, I don't need a title. I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Right Randy Lewis: ...it's "Lewis Cellars" and I'm Lewis, but, um. So I gave him my President's title about four or five years ago.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: Cuz he earned it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: Yeah, nobody asked me to. Debbie was shocked, like, "Whoa!" (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Randy Lewis: But he earned it.
Doug Shafer:
He earned it! Randy Lewis: He did earn it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: So, um, yeah, so he's been great.
Doug Shafer:
Super. Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And uh, still making great wines. Ah, 2013 Cabernet happened to be a special wine. Randy Lewis: Yep. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Got 'Wine of the Year' by the 'Wine Spectator' Randy Lewis: Yep.
Doug Shafer:
That's really cool- Randy Lewis: Yeah, it was pretty wild.
Doug Shafer:
...congratulations. Pretty cool.
Doug Shafer:
So, I gotta ask ya, how was it? Randy Lewis: You know, heh, well, see, well that wine had been sold out for over nine months. It was the previous year release, right? So-
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: ...it was long gone, so.
Doug Shafer:
Long gone. Randy Lewis: So, it didn't, but people bought the '14, you know (chuckles). So it was definitely a hit. I mean, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Sure. Randy Lewis: ...a spur. And we were very proud, but not proud like, puff your chest out, or brag about it or-
Doug Shafer:
Uh-hum (affirmative) Randy Lewis: ...you know, we were obviously very, very-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: ...very happy, very proud. Um, touched, whatever, that they would pick us. Um, they said part of the reason was not just the Cab was so good, but that we- everything that we had made across the board; Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc, Syrah, Merlot, had always been, you know, in the 90's and some of the top wines and so they thought we deserved it.
Doug Shafer:
That's great- Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's nice to hear- Randy Lewis: Yeah it is nice to hear.
Doug Shafer:
...cuz you do, your wines are top-notch across the board and that's a- Randy Lewis: Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
...that's a challenge. That's one that we attempt to do here also, so it's great. Randy Lewis: Well you do it! (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Well we gotta keep up with you.
Doug Shafer:
Um, so I gotta ask ya. Do you remember where you were and what you were doing when you heard that you got 'Wine of the Year'? Randy Lewis: I got, I was sitting in my office and opened up a letter from um, Marvin. So I was just in my office and poppin' open mail and he wrote a han- you know a letter to us saying that we were picked.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. Randy Lewis: (chuckles)
Doug Shafer:
That's cool. Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I'm glad you, I'm glad you remember that. Randy Lewis: Yeah. (chuckles)
Doug Shafer:
That's Marvin Shanken, he runs 'The Spectator'. That's pretty Cool. Randy Lewis: Yeah, and then Jim came by afterwards, you know, and congratulated us and um, you know, cuz he was a goo- he really cared about Debbie, and liked me too of course, but really loved Deb and was also kind to us, you know, liked our wine; liked what we were trying to do.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Vineyard sources. Do you guys own your own vineyard? Or do you purchase- Randy Lewis: No, I have a little one at the house where I live um, um, that's it.
Doug Shafer:
So you contract. Randy Lewis: Yep
Doug Shafer:
So how do you keep your growers happy? Randy Lewis: Well, ye-oh I pay 'em (laughs)-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Randy Lewis: ...but not stupid money because things have gotten stupid, you know-
Doug Shafer:
They have! Randy Lewis: Yeah, they have gotten stupid. And, so, but we've been with people a long time and a lot of the vineyards we're in, we help plant. In other words, we found the bare land and went to the owners and we picked the root stock and the clone and the row direction, the trellis system. And we make every decision in all the vineyards.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: Yeah, um, I mean from watering, to leafing, to laterals to obviously fruit load, to, so.
Doug Shafer:
Pruning, everything. Randy Lewis: Exactly. So, it's all done, we have a vineyard manager that oversees the whole thing and then Josh and I go out there and um, work with the- work with their vineyard manager, but he knows what we- what we need and we get it.
Doug Shafer:
That's good. That's the best- Randy Lewis: That's the best long term relationship.
Doug Shafer:
Well it's long term; that's the best to have. Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Good, good. Um, and some sad news, the start of '17 we lost Debbie- Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
...which was tough, um. But you're making a wine in her honor I hear. Randy Lewis: We sure are, we're makin'-
Doug Shafer:
Tell me about that. Randy Lewis: ...a Sauvignon Blanc.
Doug Shafer:
Sauvignon Blanc. Randy Lewis: She used to drink almost all the Sauvignon Blanc (chuckles)-
Doug Shafer:
(chuckles) Randy Lewis: ...because, you know, she would work all day, and then we would go up to the house, once we had a house up here, and um, and cook dinner, because she wanted to.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: And, um, we're five miles out in the country, so it was a little bit of a hike out there, so you don't go back for milk. But, she would shop, cook dinner, and she'd always drink Sauvignon Blanc-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: ...while we were- not just ours, you know, a bunch of other people's, as well, that we love. Um, but that was her thing, and so that's why I did it-
Doug Shafer:
Good. Randy Lewis: ...yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, you've got that wine. What other wines do you have, you've got just the one Cab, or a couple Cabs... Randy Lewis: No, you know, we've got, um, we have about fourteen different skews-
Doug Shafer:
Oh wow! Really? Randy Lewis: ...we started with one Cab and one Chard and now we have fourteen, approximately fourteen different wines. We've got four Cabernets.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: We've got four Chardonnays. We have two Sauvignon Blancs. We have a Syrah, and a Syrah blend, a Merlot. I don't know if that adds enough yet, another Syrah; some thr- potentially three Syrahs, um, Syrah-based wines.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: So, I don't know if tha- I think I add it all (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that's, so, you're busy. You gotta a lot going on. Randy Lewis: We're busy, but you know, it wasn’t a marketing ploy, it was, you know you get different vineyards and they really can't go into one thing, or they shouldn't, you know.
Doug Shafer:
You let them express where they're coming from- Randy Lewis: Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I get- I see that. And a lot of folks do that, that's- Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... is it tough from the marketplace with the consumer, it's like, they really like Lewis Cab and then they're like, well which one, do they- I mean is that a challenge for 'em? Or its- Randy Lewis: Doesn't seem to be. (chuckles)
Doug Shafer:
...doesn't seem, well good. (clears throat) Cuz, I always- I always kinda thought that would be- Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
...and maybe, barkin' up, maybe you and I need to talk more often- Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
...off mic here. Um, oh good. And so, total production? Randy Lewis: About 10,000 cases. We haven't grown much since '99. When we got to 9, we just went, "We're not going to have a yacht, we're not going to have a jet, we have- we're not- we don't need a nicer house, we're happy, we're fine, and we can hire Dennis now, so, why get bigger?"
Doug Shafer:
And you don't have to sleep in your car anymore. Randy Lewis: No.
Doug Shafer:
That's good. Randy Lewis: I didn't want anymore employees. I didn't want- I wanted to be able to sell-out in bad years as well as maybe just not have enough in good years, but, you know, not be beggin' people nonstop, so...
Doug Shafer:
That's a good business plan, I like it. Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, I gotta ask you, do you miss racing? Randy Lewis: Not, not anymore. Um, I couldn't even watch TV; the Indy 500 for years. Um, uhhh, but um, but not really-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: ....You know, I've still got a Can-Am car ah-ah, in Ph- well Sears Point; Sonoma Raceway, I guess they call it now. It's the only accident I didn't walk away from. Um, my- by- my- car broke in half and my legs go torn up pretty good. So, I was in a hosp- well not a hospital bed, they just plopped me back in my bed-
Doug Shafer:
Huh. Randy Lewis: ...for a few months, before I could walk. So, that car was literally broken in half. So I rebuilt that about ten years ago and I take that out, but um-
Doug Shafer:
Do you- Do you take it ou- I mean, they have these vintage race leagues, do you go do- Randy Lewis: I did one.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Randy Lewis: I did do one, ah-
Doug Shafer:
I was gonna ask about that. Randy Lewis: And it was kind of fun actually. Mine’s a newer Can-Am car that has half the horsepower of the older Can-Am cars. So, I was at a little bit of a disadvantage and so I jumped the start; the only way I was gonna lead-
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: ...but they red-flagged it because I jumped the start.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Randy Lewis: And so the next time every- the whole field passes me, pretty much. But they all line up on the right side of the track, so I pass everyone but this young guy who's driving his dad's car. And I had talked to him before the race and I said, "Do you think we can go two-abreast over the hill there?" And he just like, looks incredulous. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Randy Lewis: And so the next lap, that's where I passed him (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Did you really?! Randy Lewis: He looked over and just went...(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Oh, my gosh. Randy Lewis: Unfortunately, the car broke like five-left later, but I pulled out a lead and then unfortunately lost the diff, but-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, good for you. Randy Lewis: ...it was fun.
Doug Shafer:
But, you- you take it out and just run it, you-you, cuz I know they have days you can go down and take your car out and just run. Randy Lewis: Exactly-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Randy Lewis: ...and that's what I do.
Doug Shafer:
Okay Randy Lewis: Yeah
Doug Shafer:
So Randy, if people want to find your wine, what's the best way to do it? Randy Lewis: Well, you know, we're- we have a mailing list of course,-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: ...and, um, so we sell quite a bit winery-direct. Um, we're very proud to be in a lot of the top restaurants in the country, as you are well, obviously.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: That's how Debbie and I started; it was obviously retail as well cuz our friends, that's where we bought our wine from, so you're gonna sell to your friends, right?
Doug Shafer:
Right. Randy Lewis: But, uh, yeah, so. And if they don't know where to get it they can certainly call us and-
Doug Shafer:
Oh Yeah. Randy Lewis: ...we can tell them where to get it in their state or whatever-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Randy Lewis: ...if they wanna have it shipped there from us and so forth and so on.
Doug Shafer:
And website is... Randy Lewis: Lewiscellars.com.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, so that'll give you phone numbers and- Randy Lewis: Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
They can order off the website? Randy Lewis: They can.
Doug Shafer:
Great, good.
Doug Shafer:
All right my- listen, it's so good to see you. Thanks for coming in. I really wanted to hear about that- the race car guy; finally, after all these years. So, thanks for telling me your story. Randy Lewis: Well, I- you're very welcome. It was fun to be here and you know how much I love your wines, and I'm seri- you know that I've been collecting Shafer for a long time. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
It's mutual. Randy Lewis: (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Thanks Randy, take care. Randy Lewis: Okay.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Welcome back, everybody, Doug Shafer with another episode of The Taste. We've got a long-time fellow winemaker, vintner friend, we never see each other enough, Bo Barrett, welcome.
Bo Barrett:
Hi, Doug. Great to be back, man. Great to see you again.
Doug Shafer:
Great to see you. Yeah, you're at Calistoga. I'm Stags Leap. It's like it's only 25, 25 miles, but it seems like a million years away sometimes.
Bo Barrett:
It is, you know, because we have the vineyards in southern Napa Valley, and I drive by, I should drop in and see Doug. But it's just, if you drag - and stuff like that, it's like s- yeah. We're just-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, too busy.
Bo Barrett:
It's, uh, you know, that's pretty typical, 'cause this is a busy business. (laughs). Ha-
Doug Shafer:
We are busy.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, but, we usually when we do see each other, it's usually not in Napa Valley. It's on the road. We cross paths out selling wines. And, I don't know, if Bo remembers it, I think he does. 'Cause we've talked about it before. But we had the great, the best time together, years ago, on a road trip. You remember what, you know what I'm talking about?
Bo Barrett:
I absolutely do.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
I know exactly was, I think it was about 50 miles an hour and 50 feet in the air. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Something like that.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
We were at the Taste of Vail. It's first weekend in April. They had, they do it to get everybody up to the hill. And we were out, it's a two or three day thing, and we were out the night before at some big tasting. We were, we were tasting, a lot.
Bo Barrett:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
As I recall.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And I think you said, “Shafer, the best run, it's Avanti. You gotta go tomorrow.” I said, “Bo, I gotta do a seminar at, at noon.” He said, “See yeah there at, you know, 9:00, 9:30 sharp. We'll get a few runs in and we can split.” So, sure enough, I showed up, and you showed up. I was really hurting. I was hurting. (laughs). And so we went up the chair lift, and we're going down this, it's a groomer run where you go like 40 or 50 miles an hour, and-
Bo Barrett:
And it's blue, black, blue again.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Gorgeous day. Nobody on the hill. And we're just screaming, side by side. And all of a sudden, I was in mid-air. And it's like, “Oh my God. I just went off a cliff.” (laughs).
Bo Barrett:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, Bo hit this lip at the same time. We were fine. We landed it fine. But we both got down, we were like ... I think we looked at each other, the, it's like, “That was cool. Let's- "
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
" - do it again." (laughs).
Bo Barrett:
It was awesome. But then, we knew it was coming, and we never got as much air as we-
Doug Shafer:
Never.
Bo Barrett:
... did at the first time. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Not as much fun. That was, uh, this-
Bo Barrett:
That was a great day.
Doug Shafer:
That was a beautiful day. Didn't last long enough. But anyway, we've got, you know, Bo, you've got, I figure, three main stories. You got Chateau Montelena, you've got your dad's story, you've got your story. I think throughout some of your stories, you and I have a lot in common with working with our dads, which might be kind of fun. But, start with Chateau Montelena. What's the history?
Bo Barrett:
Well, Montelena, by, oh, well, it was ... Let's, just start at the beginning. So, as we see, now, with the earliest success of Napa Valley, 1845 to 1860-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
By 1880, some money was starting to flow in. Because we've gotta remember, Napa Valley was started by the farmers, like Krug for example.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
Started, started the Charles Krug Winery. And, um, you know, with the Trefethens, and all those old, wooden structures. But then, along came people like Alfred Tubbs, Senator Alfred Tubbs, or you know, the guys that started Far Niente. So, when, like we see today, some people with money saw what was happening and the potential to make great wine in Napa Valley. So, some of the wealthier people came in, and provided the capital that really started California where we started getting, you know, winning gold medals in Paris in the pre-Prohibition, it was by 1888 to-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
... 1890.
Doug Shafer:
Late 1800's.
Bo Barrett:
So Montelena was real successful. Alfred Tubbs, our founder, built the winery, named it the A.L. Tubbs Winery.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
Uh, built, it was, the winery was, the vineyards were planted in 1882. And the winery was built in 1886.
Doug Shafer:
That's-
Bo Barrett:
And it was state of the art.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Bo Barrett:
It was a stone winery, 'cause you gotta remember, like, Krug, for example, the wineries here were made out of redwood. So they froze in the winter and baked in the summer.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
So, when he went to France, because he had this whaling fleet, so Tubbs had a cordage company. And as-
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Bo Barrett:
... a result, he had ships that sailed all around the world. So, he hired a European architect. And still, we do know the original one.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Bo Barrett:
The winery was credited to the Napa Valley architect, Hamden McIntyre. But it is not one of his buildings.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
Because now we're on the National Registry of Historic Places. So we know it is not a McIntyre building, like Far Niente, for example.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
It's very different. So, anyway, the winery's successful. By about 1890, it's the fourth largest winery in Napa Valley. It's bigger than Beringer.
Doug Shafer:
I didn't know that.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Really?
Bo Barrett:
It was. And he also started the Napa Valley Co-op, which is w- at that time, 'cause it, and again, going in the time machine in the history of Napa Valley, they would put the wine in barrels, and then put it on barges and take it to the city.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
And the merchants in the city would then, you know, step on it, and to use a drug colloquial term -
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Bo Barrett:
(laughs). They would cut it with stuff from like Lodi or wherever. And so, then, and they had a, there was only two wine merchants in California. And they definitely were conspiring to drive the prices down. So A.L. Tubbs being a very savvy businessman from San Francisco, he basically founded the co-op, where that the growers up here then had the fighting power to go against this monopoly.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
And keep the prices up. So, he was a, he was a very active guy in the early days of-
Doug Shafer:
How neat.
Bo Barrett:
Napa Valley. And his winery, it was quite large. Um, in his first year in 1886-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... they did 137,000 gallons of wine.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Bo Barrett:
And that is actually the agreed stipulated agreement. What we produce today at Montelena, we actually don't make that much. But in year one, day one, year one, first harvest-
Doug Shafer:
They did that much.
Bo Barrett:
They made 100,000, 130,000 gallons.
Doug Shafer:
Which is how many cases? That's, uh-
Bo Barrett:
Like 70, 80.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. 70, 80,000 cases.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But-
Bo Barrett:
But remember they didn't use cases.
Doug Shafer:
That's right. That's right. That's because they were making, basically, bulk. Selling, selling, so they didn't really bottle it right here, they sold it bulk, and merchants bottled it. Is that-
Bo Barrett:
That's correct-
Doug Shafer:
... how it was? Okay.
Bo Barrett:
... in San Francisco. It was the Uncle Sam Company, and the, the name is still lasts through today, not quite as big as it was during our life, but Groezinger's Wine Company-
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Bo Barrett:
So the two merchants in San Francisco were Uncle Sam Wine Company-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... which I still think that's a great one. And Groezinger's. So those are the two merchants in San Francisco that controlled the market.
Doug Shafer:
And you -
Bo Barrett:
Kind of like the Gallo and Bronco of the day.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. And so-
Bo Barrett:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
... you've done the research. What were they, what were they making? Do you know what grapes would, or varietals they were making? Or was it just kind of red, kind of white?
Bo Barrett:
Oddly enough, we, we've only, so far, most of the bottles we've ever found for, for from the post-Prohibition periods. 'Cause his grandson, Chapin Tubbs restarted the winery. So, the winery is very successful, of course, over time.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
A.L. Tubbs dies. Prohibition comes along. The winery goes out of business. His grandson had a stop-start through 1932 through '36. But by-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
...really by the beginning of World War II, Montelena was closed up for good. And, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
You know, happily, so. You know, Prohibition, it's quite interesting. The, at the Bank of America foreclosure sale-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
The brands went with it. You know, when they say, “Lock, stock, and barrel.” There's a, there's a ... armaments, you know, reference to that, but also in prohibition, lock, stock, and barrel is, you know, the barrel, the stock inside, and the lock on the door. So during Prohibition years when they sold off a winery, it was lock, stock, and barrel.
Doug Shafer:
Lock, stock, and barrel.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. So, and-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
Strangely, yeah. So, Montelena goes long, sleepy. It's been abandoned, the roof's collapsed, the vineyards are down. And I'll circle back, here. To-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... what the original plans-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
And just let me finish the history.
Doug Shafer:
No, no, I love it. Don't worry about it.
Bo Barrett:
So, what happened was, they go belly up in about '38, '39. And they sell the brand, Chateau Montelena gets picked up by a guy, that is where Freemark Abbey is now. I think it was called Martini, or something like that.
Doug Shafer:
I'm gonna jump in. It was called Chateau Montelena then? Or was this-
Bo Barrett:
No, that was in the '30s.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, that so, during prohibition, they operated as Montelena Orchards and Montelena Vineyards.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, okay.
Bo Barrett:
So some of the vineyards actually did survive prohibition. Yes, most, a lot of it was planted to prunes-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
... during that period of time. So, and we got the- when we got there in '72, there was still some prunes.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
But, so, then, they operate as Montelena Vineyards. So his grandson, Chapin Tubbs, is the one who came up with the name Chateau Montelena.
Doug Shafer:
So he came up with that. 'Cause that was one of my questions-
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, and so that's the prohibition.
Doug Shafer:
... later, it's like where did that come from? Cool.
Bo Barrett:
Exactly. So, yeah. So, they came from Montelena Orchards.
Doug Shafer:
Montelena Orchards, that was the-
Bo Barrett:
That was a Prohibition farming company name.
Doug Shafer:
... origin. Got it.
Bo Barrett:
And obviously, Mount Saint Helena, you know, being at the foot of Mount Saint Helena-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Bo Barrett:
You know, happy for those, who, those of us who drink once in a while, it's like, did ...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
It's not Chateau Mount Saint Helena, it's, you know, Chateau Montelena.
Doug Shafer:
Montelena.
Bo Barrett:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
Or, my dad used to call it, Chateau Monteleoni.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
But, anyway.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
Back to the history that, yesterday that, so, really a story about Napa Valley in the early days, in the '72 when we're gonna restart the winery.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
So they had sold to, to the guys over at Freemark Abbey, and then the brand later got sold to Bob Trinchero's dad. So, Sutter Home has it.
Doug Shafer:
Sutter Home had the Chateau Montelena brand name.
Bo Barrett:
That's correct.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
He had the trademark, the TTB brand name. And for free, for $0, because it needed to go back, Bob Trinchero gave us the name back.
Doug Shafer:
He did?
Bo Barrett:
That's what kind of, that's the kind of welcome we got to Napa Valley, when we got here, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Well, the Trinchero family is still great.
Bo Barrett:
Yes. They're just the best. And he's still one of my good buddies, as you know, so-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
But, yeah, it was just, just very welcoming when we got here.
Doug Shafer:
How cool.
Bo Barrett:
But what they had planted when I got there ... So, now, we had the prohibition varieties, when I got there.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
So, we had, I don't know if you ever talked to the podcast before about, you know, Bergers or Sauvignon Vert?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
Okay those-
Doug Shafer:
We have some of that planted here.
Bo Barrett:
Right. Those were the Thompson seedless of the day.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
So they were just bulk, cheap, high producers, you know, probably dry farm, doing like eight, ten tons an acre-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
... you know, so, eight by eight, or ten by ten vineyards. So, Sauvignon Vert. Then we had some Alicante Bouschet-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
Which, that was, we actually crushed some of that. And, uh, we had Mondeuse.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
And we had Petite Sirah and quite a bit of Zinfandel. So, when we got there in '72, my dad's idea was to make a great Cabernet vineyard. Because of the elevation, and the soil, and our, you know, we're on the Napa River, so we have a-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
Montelena's on the alluvial fan of the Napa River. So if you know about Napa, historically, a lot of the great vineyards, here, on the alluvial fan is whether it's Araujo, Caymus-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Bo Barrett:
The To-Kalon.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
And so, our alluvial fan is of the Napa River itself. So, you know, as you go down, you know, the Three Palms -
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
They're all ... So we got that. So, and everybody said, “Okay, Cabernet's gonna be the future.” And my dad had really wanted to make Cabernet. So as we replanted, we took out everything except the Zin, and the Mondeuse, and the Pets. And so-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
When I started working in the cellar in '73, we were still crushing a little bit of, Zinfandel, Mondeuse, and Petite Sirah.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
So, and, but those went away in our '74 plantings, that's when we really, uh, swept over most. And so the only original vineyards we have from that period are some, we have two acres of Zinfandel left. From-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
... uh, 1968, I think.
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Bo Barrett:
And we have about five left of the 1970, no, seven left of the 1974 Cab.
Doug Shafer:
Cool.
Bo Barrett:
So, our legacy stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Cool. Coming back to the history, because I've gotta bring this up. You know, there's this ... You guys have a, a lake on the property, right by the Chateau. And the reason (laughs) I bring it up is 'cause, I remember a couple of toga parties -
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. But, um, a little side note, Bo used to host toga parties after harvest.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
After we were all beat, and so, uh, it was always a great-
Bo Barrett:
It was actually at like-
Doug Shafer:
... get together.
Bo Barrett:
80% through harvest when everybody would be-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. You know. Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
It's kind of like the cowboys riding into town and really cutting loose.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs). And still -
Bo Barrett:
And the people like Doug would ask me, “What should I bring” I said, “Bring a wheelbarrow for your wife to cart you home in.” (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs). Um-
Bo Barrett:
But, yeah, the toga parties, there's nothing like a bunch of people in sheets -
Doug Shafer:
Uh.
Bo Barrett:
... paddling around a lake in the Chinese junk.
Doug Shafer:
But the lake. So, so tell me, Jade Lake. Where'd that, where'd that come from? Was that your dad?
Bo Barrett:
No, not at all. So, we actually have the ad. So, the heirs and descendants of Alfred Tubbs -
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
...were land rich and cash poor. So, over the years, the properties got sold and broken up. And the 16 acres that the winery sits upon was sold in the early '60s to a Chinese guy named Yort Frank Wing.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Bo Barrett:
Yort Frank Wing's family had fled the Japanese invasion of Manchuria. But he grew up in Los Angeles -
Doug Shafer:
Oh, wow.
Bo Barrett:
...so, he had had to leave China when he was an infant, or a very young man. So, when he got Chateau Montelena, he had just the winery and the grounds -
Doug Shafer:
(laughs), Uh-huh (affirmative).
Bo Barrett:
... right in front of it, right by the Napa River, there.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Bo Barrett:
So, he decided to build a lake -
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... and build a Chinese garden. So, Yort Frank Wang. So he only owns the 16 acres, and he's not operating the winery, clearly.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
And we still have, if you come to our tasting room and visit, on the, you know, the displays, you can see the advertisement from about 1965 in the Chronicle. And -
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... it says, you know, “Old Chateau Available for Retreats, Spa, Hotel, Restaurant.” Not one single mention of wine. That's how sleepy the wine world was.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Bo Barrett:
You know, because before your dad and my dad got here, there is no question. Even as late as 1976, they're saying, “Napa Valley used to be the center of American wine making.”
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Bo Barrett:
"But now it's clearly Modesto.” And that was as late as '76. So -
Doug Shafer:
We've gotta compare those stories in a second -
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. So, but, so, anyways, Yort Frank built a Chinese lake. And then, as crazy as it might -
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... seem, over where the Araujo’s are now.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
Uh, that was the Eisele Vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
Right?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
Okay. So, Eisele... Yort Frank has a Caterpillar that he used to build the lake, right? And old D-4, six-
Doug Shafer:
Right, right, yeah.
Bo Barrett:
You know, the one with the cables -
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... on the front. So he's got this Cat. And Eisele wants to build a pond.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
And he's got, guess what? A 26-foot Chinese junk that he bought in Seattle. So they (laughs), so Yort Frank trades the Caterpillar for the Chinese junk and puts it on Jade Lake. So that's why we had that junk-
Doug Shafer:
That, it, we ...
Bo Barrett:
... that we used to party on.
Doug Shafer:
Is it still there? No.
Bo Barrett:
No.
Doug Shafer:
It's long gone.
Bo Barrett:
It'd be-
Doug Shafer:
Did it sink?
Bo Barrett:
If the insurance company called it I, wha- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
When you were out there, it sank all the time.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
So what we decided to do was fill up with that Formula two part foam, kind of how great stuff is, now?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
There was this foam. So we filled the bilge s-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... with this foam -
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... so it wouldn't sink.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
But-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
We were young and stupid. We didn't understand ballas t-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... all that well-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
...that the boat's not supposed to float that high. So that's why it was-
Doug Shafer:
Well, you just, you-
Bo Barrett:
... so tippy, and when we had the party, everybody fell (laughs) in the pond.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, it's not young and stupid. It's just-
Bo Barrett:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
... we didn't have the nautical background. That's all. It's just, you know-
Bo Barrett:
We had this-
Doug Shafer:
It's all about experience.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. But, the lake ... And then, so, over the years, and he had built the plywood pavilions and stuff, and then-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
When I went to China, probably ten years ago, and I was giving a talk on, actually, the history of American Chardonnay in Beijing.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Bo Barrett:
Right before the Americans started it, you know, trying to import into the PRC. I saw, at the summer palace, what Jade Lake was supposed to look like.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
And subsequently bought all the Chinese tiles. And that's where the upgrade, now. So, now it really is a, is a very good American version of the, uh, summer palace in Beijing.
Doug Shafer:
Very cool.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Very cool. So, getting to your dad, 'cause I'm real curious about it. Because I don't know your dad's story, and how he got to Napa Valley. But, so where'd your dad grow up? Where'd, where'd he come from?
Bo Barrett:
Well, he was born in the south side of Chicago, in the Irish ghettos. My grandparents were Irish immigrants. I actually still have them, you know, EU-Irish Passport.
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Bo Barrett:
Yep. So I got that. But, so, I grew up, and his father was a fireman, and a railroad cop. And, and then he also worked for Sears Roebuck, during the day.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
So, he was a railroad cop at night, um, my grandparents had met in the U.S., didn't like it. Oh, they had gone back to Ireland, uh, one-
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Bo Barrett:
... of the brothers was either born or conceived there, the middle brother Vincent. And then he moved back to the U.S. for good, uh, I don't know the exact years.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
But it was definitely after World War II. Uh, he got his citizenship in the U.S. working for the Navy in World War I. So, we have always been a hard-core Navy family. My dad served in the Navy -
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
... submarines, my uncle's buried at Annapolis. He was a rear admiral.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
So, a big time Navy family. But, anyway, my uncle got transferred to Los Angeles when my dad was eight. So, he grew up in Los Angeles.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Bo Barrett:
And, like the Irish trifecta, it was four kids, the, the youngest daughter passed away early. But, the first brother, Annapolis grad.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Bo Barrett:
Rear admiral. Next one, priest. Monsignor.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
And the next one was an attorney. So -
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
My dad used to say it his mom was so proud, 'cause it was the Irish trifecta.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
You know?
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
But my father, uh-
Doug Shafer:
And he was, he was the attorney?
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Your dad-
Bo Barrett:
He's the attorney.
Doug Shafer:
He got it.
Bo Barrett:
So, uh, he was an attorney in southern California. And his lead client was the, uh, a guy named Ernie Hahn and there's-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
... two companies in the U.S. that say they invented the regional shopping center, aka mall, the Di Bartolos and the Hahn Companies. So, as the Hahn Company started building malls around the world, my father was his lead guy. And by the time he was getting ready to do something else, he did 30 years, he had had like 36 lawyers, and all these people, and all they did was real estate and tax development.
Doug Shafer:
He did 30 years as a lawyer?
Bo Barrett:
That's right. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
He didn't get to move, you know, we won the Paris Tasting in '76. But he didn't get to move to Napa Valley 'til about '85.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. That's what-
Bo Barrett:
He was a lawyer for a long time.
Doug Shafer:
That's what my question was. Because since he bought the property, '72 you said.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, late '71.
Doug Shafer:
Late '71. So, okay. Before we go any further, what was the, was he, was he a wine guy? Was he into wine?
Bo Barrett:
Not at all. What happened was, as his clientele got more and more sophisticated, you know, 'cause he'd come out of the Navy, and he still, you know, 'til the day he died, continued to drink Jack Daniels and stuff like that.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
Jack and soda. And, um, so, what happened was, as his clientele became more and more sophisticated, he had to go to these, you know ... fancy dinners-
Doug Shafer:
The dinners.
Bo Barrett:
... at like the Brown Derby, and all these, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
... what was Piero Selvaggio's restaurant in L.A.?
Doug Shafer:
Valentino's?
Bo Barrett:
Valentino, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So he's down in L.A.
Bo Barrett:
So he's in L.A. So he just-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
He decides that he has to learn about wine.
Doug Shafer:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Funny.
Bo Barrett:
So to learn about wine, he goes up to the UCLA extension.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
So the night class at UCLA, Chroman, Nathan Chroman, famous name in the business. So, old Chroman's teaching the UCLA Appreciation of Wine extension class. And my dad learns four things.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
Well, really, one thing. That the great wines of the world are German Riesling,
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... Burgundy, Chardonnay, and Pinot. And so that's just one. We'll just call it, Chardonnay and Pinot the same thing.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
That's, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
Burgundy, basically-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
... as one. The Rhone wines, and-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Bo Barrett:
... the Grand Cru of Bordeaux.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
So that's what he did, so that's how my father learned about wine. And I was in high school at this time and I'm sitting there at the dinner table, and, you know, my dad's got this bottle of wine. And I, you know, my dad has not been drinking wine. Like, seriously, my brothers and I are his-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... bartenders. And we're making Tom Collins, and-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Bo Barrett:
... gin and tonics, and-
Doug Shafer:
Gin, gin and tonics.
Bo Barrett:
I cannot remember pulling any glasses of wine at all these big parties that they would have, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... at my house in Palos Verdes. My dad would have big parties. And we were the bartenders, and seriously, I can remember learning how to make a Tom Collins, and a gin and tonic-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... and all this kind of stuff. But nobody ever asked for wine. So I see my dad with a bottle of Chardonnay as it's the Bouchard Père & Fils, the real one? You gotta little Amon Rouche . And he goes, “Gol, man, this is amazing. You gotta taste this.” I was probably 15. And it was pretty amazing.
Doug Shafer:
Well, this, okay, I gotta, I gotta stop you quick. Don't don't lose your train of thought. But, we're tracking the same way. So I'm in Chicago. Dad, Mom, they're, you know, cocktails. Bourbon and beer. There was never wine in the house. Same thing. My brothers and I would bartend parties. (laughs).
Bo Barrett:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
And so I remember this lady teaching me how to shoot gin and tonics. So, like I had a shot glass, Dad said, you just pour a shot of gin, and then fill it up with tonic, and so I did. The lady looks at me, she goes, “Honey, let me show you how to make a real drink.” (laughs).
Bo Barrett:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
She basically did a, a shot glass full of tonic and filled it with gin instead.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
But, how funny. So that's, uh, because dad, you know, a lot of people I run into and say, “Oh, how cool that your dad was into wine and did this.” It's like, No. He did it because he heard it as a good investment. Like he came out, it was the, the wine boom was coming. So that's where he came from.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, when-
Doug Shafer:
So how, so did your, but now, but yours started getting into wine. So is that what triggered it to come up to here?
Bo Barrett:
No. And so this is a ... that ... and you know that, that you've heard it in our business, the class of '72, or the class of '73?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
Where all the sudden 25 wineries start up all of a sudden. And-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
You might have been at that CEO conference where I talked about that.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Bo Barrett:
'Cause you gotta remember, in '72, the Vietnam war is raging.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
The combined tax rate, the federal tax rate's like 73 to 78% because they have the war surcharges. And so, so what happened was, we've got John Connelly as the Speaker of the House. And the, you know, the taxing and Richard Nixon's President. And they conspired to write a tax law signed, gotta remember, my dad's a tax and real estate attorney.
Doug Shafer:
It's his, right in his wheelhouse.
Bo Barrett:
Right. So, the, the, I, the Restoration Act, I'd actually have to look at my notes to find the exact name of it. But basically, there was a whole - and American agriculture was also dying at the same time. So we have this really crushing tax rates-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
... uh, the Vietnam War, things are not going all that great in '72. So, to reinvigorate American agriculture, they pass a reinvestment tax credit where whole dollars. So if you make $1,000,000 on your shopping center development you can put that $1,000,000 into agriculture and not pay the 78 taxes, but you ... 78% tax. But you can put the whole dollars to work in American agriculture. And if you th- that's right.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Bo Barrett:
You're looking at me ... now-
Doug Shafer:
I'm looking, I'm looking-
Bo Barrett:
... this is passed for the Midwest. This is for Tannico, and all the giant agribusiness stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
But what happened, what Napa really needed was the money. 'Cause, you know, you own a winery, you know wineries run on two things, money and water.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
You know, this, this business is insane, how much money we have to invest, where you're growing grapes for five years. And then you get-
Doug Shafer:
Equipment.
Bo Barrett:
... to buy barrels, and you get to buy a bottling line, then you get to buy a warehouse, and a forklift, and more people, and-
Doug Shafer:
And then you get to sell wine.
Bo Barrett:
It's just insane.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
(laughs). I remember the first time my dad was bragging to his buddies, he goes, “We finally made a million bucks.” And he goes, “You did all that work, plant those-"
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
"... grapes, crush them, and what what? For a lousy million bucks?”
Doug Shafer:
Yeah and it took ya-
Bo Barrett:
It's like-
Doug Shafer:
...it took ya 15 years.
Bo Barrett:
Talk about getting your balloon popped. Oh, yeah. It took more than that. But, so, anyway, um-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
So, basically, my dad's job was to find an agricultural enterprise for his clients.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
So they looked at cattle. And in those days, you know, nobody in the United States knew what an avocado was, much less a pomegranate. You know?
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Bo Barrett:
All this, and so the oranges, there's taxes and stuff. So my dad really went around, he was a pilot by that time. And he had his airplane. He flew all around California. Luckily I got to go with sometimes, and we'd go look at cattle operations. You know, I only went on a couple, but he went on a lot.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
So we looked at some cows, we looked at some oranges. And the pomegranates and avocados, all that stuff. And none of were ha- were getting to any traction. So, they're up at like the Brown Derby, again, or Valentino in L.A.-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
And they're drinking a bottle of Mondavi Cab. (laughs). And the way my dad always told the story, is he takes a sip of the wine, and all of the sudden, he just went, “What about this stuff?", as he points to the bottle.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
And that's, so, that. And he's, the next, probably, day or two, he was up here, flew up to Santa Rosa. Started looking around-
Doug Shafer:
So he, he was on a search.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. He was on a search. He was looking for an agricultural investment.
Doug Shafer:
A product.
Bo Barrett:
And, I'm, and I am quite sure that, you know, I've told, you know, the Wetzels, and stuff like that, 'cause a lot of their dad's, because I was so involved with my dad, you know, that he thought I was gonna be a lawyer, too, so as we went along, he was, you know, keeping me a press, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
... apprised of all these, um, the complexities of life. Um, where, you know, people think of us that are successful in our business that we're just, you know, farmers, and grape growers, and I go to great lengths to say, “Oh, you know, aw shucks. I'm just a grape grower, and working hard.”
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
But the fact of the matter is, is, you know, half the time, we have to be a lawyer, and a diplomat, and a politician, and, you know, fight hard for things like the direct to shipping thing.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Bo Barrett:
And all the things we've done in our careers, you know, a lot of it is making wine is the fun part. You know?
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Bo Barrett:
But some of the more heavy lifting that you and I have done of things like the direct shipping, and all these, all these things-
Doug Shafer:
Ah just-
Bo Barrett:
...that we've, that we've made the difference in. So, anyway. That's how we got into it, basically, a class at L.A. and looking for real estate investment.
Doug Shafer:
Came up here, and looked around, found, so he found this place. So he found, it was all, it was abandoned at that point.
Bo Barrett:
That's right, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
The Chateau.
Bo Barrett:
The roof had collapsed in two places, the vineyards were totally run down. Uh, the winery was actually on a separate parcel. It had to be reunited with 100 acres of-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
... the vineyard. So that was the first thing. And, a guy had got here, Lee Passage our first partner, who had actually successfully done that. So, Lee Passage got the name back from Bob Trinchero.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
He didn't give it to Jim Barrett, he gave it to Lee Passaage, one of our first partners. And then, we started replanting the vineyard. But my father knew that he didn't know, really, anything about farming, seriously.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Bo Barrett:
... to the day he died, you know, you see in the movies, he's in the winery, and stuff, no. You know.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
If you told him, “Hook up this disc and pull down that row, or we'll shoot your dog.” The dog would die.
Doug Shafer:
The dog would die.
Bo Barrett:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs). Oh, no.
Bo Barrett:
You know, or hook up this pump and empty this barrel, or crush these grapes, the dog's gonna die.
Doug Shafer:
The dog- (laughs).
Bo Barrett:
So, yet, but he was a v- excellent, excellent, along the lines of Ronald Reagan. A very laissez faire, a hard task master, and a very fair, what would you call it, not a dictator, but, benevolent monarch.
Doug Shafer:
No, he, he spoke his mind and it was by ... I, I adored your dad. He-
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... was a g-
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I loved seeing him, it was great.
Bo Barrett:
So, so, so he put together a team, and, uh, our first vineyard manager that was his first hire, his name was John Rolleri. John Rolleri had plowed grapes for Madame Du Pins with a mule. That's how long-
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Bo Barrett:
... his experience was. And so-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Bo Barrett:
Our first vineyard manager, the day he came to work, he was my age, now, 65. He was an old guy.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
'Cause in those days, 65 was actually pretty old.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
Nowadays, it's like, bah, doesn't matter.
Doug Shafer:
No.
Bo Barrett:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
No way.
Bo Barrett:
But, but, but anyway so he got that, and then, he hired this wine maker Mike Grgich, who had a pretty good, uh, track record.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, where'd, where'd Mike come from at that point?
Bo Barrett:
Mike, you probably read Dick Peterson's book.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
He was over there. He was a lab tech over at BV. And I believe he was a lab tech over at Mondavi, too. And then I think he was on the wine making team at Mondavi.
Doug Shafer:
That's right, I think you're right.
Bo Barrett:
But, uh, you know, it's, with all these wineries, that were starting in '72, it was, you know, a great opportunity for Mr. Grgich, and he did, he did a great job for us, you know. Clearly, he was-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, he was, so, that was, you know, if you look at me, I did my, uh, apprenticeship under Mike Grgich, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
And then after we won the Paris Tasting course, you know, he took off to start Grgich Hills. So-
Doug Shafer:
Right but-
Bo Barrett:
... more power to him.
Doug Shafer:
I'm with you. So, I'm going back. So your dad buys it '71, '72, you get the vineyard go- so you had 100 acres of vineyard.
Bo Barrett:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Which was great. And then, uh, you're fixing up the winery to getting going. First crush was '72?
Bo Barrett:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
And, but your Dad's still, he lived in L.A. and he kept lawyering? So-
Bo Barrett:
Right, yeah. Because in '72, we had to replant the vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
So we don't make the estate cabernet until 1978.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
Because we plant in ‘72 and '74. So we don't have enough grapes until we crush the '78. '78, at that time, we were on a four year cycle. So, the, I was like 30 months in barrels, not the typical 20, 24-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Bo Barrett:
... we're using nowadays.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Bo Barrett:
So it was a four year cycle under capsule. We're not selling our first estate cabernet until 1982.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
And so, is that gonna work or not? We don't know. So, that's why he doesn't get to really wind down his law business 'til about '85.
Doug Shafer:
So he kept, he wanted to, he kept his day, day job.
Bo Barrett:
He kept it.
Doug Shafer:
Smart guy. Okay.
Bo Barrett:
He, yeah. Yeah, he-
Doug Shafer:
So he-
Bo Barrett:
He had to keep his day job.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
Exactly.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Okay. S- just for fun, we moved here in '73. Same type of, 30 acres of 60 year old vines, same varieties you mentioned. You know, Dad started to develop Hillside Cab. His first vintage they bottled was '78. Sold it in '81. He wanted to get going fast.
Bo Barrett:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
Well, that, if you think about back to, you know, my dad had gone to that UCLA class.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
And if you look at Chateau Montelena today, you know, 40 something years later-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
What do we make Riesling, German ... remember? The four wines from UCLA: Riesling-
Doug Shafer:
Riesling.
Bo Barrett:
... Chardonnay, Zinfandel, Cabernet. The Zinfandel, put an equal sign, equals our Rhone wine.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
And so, that's what we make, and we still have some.
Doug Shafer:
You still make the four wines.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, we still make the four wines. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
You still make 'em.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. We still got Riesling, too. So, but basically, that was a cash flow deal. See, 'cause the Riesling's a one year wine. You crush it in-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
... September, October, you can start selling it, basically, the following June. So it's, and the next year, you get to start selling Riesling. Chardonnay, at that time, was a two year wine.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Bo Barrett:
Zinfandel was a three year wine. And then the Cabernet -
Doug Shafer:
And Cabernet was a four.
Bo Barrett:
... was an eight to 10 year project.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
So the Chardonnay and the Riesling, and the Zinfandel were all cash flow products to get the winery up and running, and to basically fund, uh, the-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
... the Cabernet program.
Doug Shafer:
So-
Bo Barrett:
And it worked, you know.
Doug Shafer:
It worked.
Bo Barrett:
So, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, circling back to you, you're growing up in Palos Verdes.
Bo Barrett:
Heh (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
You graduate from high school right around-
Bo Barrett:
'72.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Dad's bought the winery. And so-
Bo Barrett:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
What happened to you? Where'd you go to - well, wait. What was, what was high school like?
Bo Barrett:
Ha.
Doug Shafer:
I don't remember hearing about it. What'd you do?
Bo Barrett:
Well, I went, I was incarcerated-
Doug Shafer:
... in sports, what?
Bo Barrett:
... at Bishop Montgomery High School, the Catholic high school-
Doug Shafer:
... incarcerated.
Bo Barrett:
It was about-
Doug Shafer:
Incarcerated.
Bo Barrett:
It was all the way down in Torrance. We lived in Palos Verdes in a town called Lunada Bay. It's now called Rancho Palos Verdes.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
It's all the million dollar houses. When I grew up, out there, it was garbanzo beans and barley-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... and strawberries, of all things.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
No, seriously, it was. It was all farms out there. So I had a really good free-range childhood. You know, at the, going out into the ocean, uh, my Huck Finn days were completely at the ocean. Uh-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
Ra- you know-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
Uh, shooting fish, and roasting 'em on the beach kind of thing. Building forts out of driftwood, it was a very, um-
Doug Shafer:
Fun.
Bo Barrett:
... like I said, it was a very free-range childhood. Mostly, around the ocean and water, then in high school, I played water polo, swam-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
... did not play football or baseball, that stuff. Yeah, I was always, always aquatic-based.
Doug Shafer:
Always was on the beach.
Bo Barrett:
Always on the beach. Um, but then, when I graduated from high school, um, Pa- Palos Verdes is quite famous for, there was a very tribal, surf zone wars. My beach, my wave, my girl. And it was being quite violent. And I didn't like that at all.
Doug Shafer:
Were you a surfer?
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, definitely.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
Early days. Like when they gave us the surf leash after Jack O'Neill invented the, uh, invented the lea- Do you know why Jack O'Neill had eye patch? You know, in the O'Neill wet suits? The eye patch?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why?
Bo Barrett:
'Cause he invented the surf leash. The first one was all shock cord.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Bo Barrett:
And it broke and knocked his eye out.
Doug Shafer:
The, the thing he invented-
Bo Barrett:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
... (laughs).
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, no.
Bo Barrett:
So, Jack O'Neill. He's one of the greats of the aqua, aquatic world.
Doug Shafer:
You know, I learned more s- things on this, this, doing this podcast. (laughs).
Bo Barrett:
Okay. So, anyway, so, my dad ... So I graduated from high school-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
... and my dad says, “What are you gonna do now?” I said-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
"I wanna surf.” He goes, "Where are you gonna live? I said, “Oh, well, right here.” He goes, “Great.” My dad's a successful lawyer, we've got a Mexican cook and she-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... makes tacos for me at lunch every day.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
He goes, “No. In this family.” Remember, the Irish immigrant parents. “In this family, you gotta be a full-time student or have a full-time job to live in this house.” That's the bad news-
Doug Shafer:
I just love your dad.
Bo Barrett:
That's the bad news.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
No, he, he was tough. And, but, tough in a good way. And, so, I said, “Okay, well ...” You know, and in high school, I was clearly one of the guys that just looked out the window the whole time. I-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
My brother got way, my brothers and sisters got way better grades than I did. I always maintained a B average. Because if I got a B average, I could go ski and take weeks off in the winter, and stuff like that.
Doug Shafer:
How, how many siblings?
Bo Barrett:
Five.
Doug Shafer:
Five.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. So, I, I'm-
Doug Shafer:
So six kids.
Bo Barrett:
I'm the oldest boy.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, one ... oldest daughter, three boys in a row, and then, uh, a baby sister.
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Bo Barrett:
So, I was the oldest of the boys. And so, I had to always set the example- of
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... the oldest son, you know, that deal. So, anyway, um, he said, “I can get you a job at the construction company. And I can get you a job at the vineyard. I want you to try out both this year.” So I went down and poured concrete, building shopping centers with the Hahn company, for about $7.50 an hour in 1972. Really huge union money. Big money.
Doug Shafer:
Big money.
Bo Barrett:
I got to buy a motorcycle to commute to work in, and stuff like that. And we were building, I think that one was in, maybe Long Beach or Anaheim-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
Kinda out there. So, I poured concrete for about a month and a half. And then, I decided, he goes, “Go try the winery, now.” And they-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... were making a dollar an hour.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
(laughs). And look what job I chose as a career. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
$1.00 an hour.
Bo Barrett:
$1.00, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So you come up through wineries. So, and Grgich is at the winery.
Bo Barrett:
Right. Though the winery's not really running yet. This-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... was '72. So, the 1968, uh, Zinfandel had to be watered with a bucket. So that was my job, was basically-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, my gosh.
Bo Barrett:
... pull the old grape gondolas and trailers, and a five gallon bucket-
Doug Shafer:
A buck- walking through the fields.
Bo Barrett:
... you dig a ditch around each vine-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
... dump in the bucket. And then, pulling star-thistle by hand. And then, by '74, I was working summers, you know, putting in end posts and stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
But then, Grgich he liked my work product and he moved me to the cellar in '73. So the first harvest, I worked was '73.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. So, uh, and, and you've been there ever since.
Bo Barrett:
Well, meanwhile, so, I started working there, and I worked all summer long. And I said, “To hell with this. I want to go to college, too.”
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. So-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. That's cool. All right good.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. So I decided to go to college. And, uh-
Doug Shafer:
... hard, hard labor-
Bo Barrett:
You'll appreciate my dad.
Doug Shafer:
My-
Bo Barrett:
The first day, the Snowbird tram was open, he, the first lift, we were on the second lift. Not the first, the first day the Snowbird tram was open, he had me and my brothers out there to ski Snowbird.
Doug Shafer:
You dog.
Bo Barrett:
I know. The first-
Doug Shafer:
You dog.
Bo Barrett:
... that was 1971.
Doug Shafer:
1971.
Bo Barrett:
The winter of '71-'72, Snowbird opens. First day we're there.
Doug Shafer:
All right. Time out, time out, time out. You're a surfer. You're a beach boy. When did you get into skiing?
Bo Barrett:
My dad got us into that.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
He, no, my dad got me into all the fun stuff in the world. He dove, he skied.
Doug Shafer:
All right.
Bo Barrett:
He flew airplanes. Uh, so all the stuff that I still-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
... do today-
Doug Shafer:
Another thing-
Bo Barrett:
And I told you I just came back from a dive-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
... trip. My whole family dives-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
... and skis. So, I grew up, like my dad, he was, he was, he liked the outdoors.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Don't lose your Snowbird. I'm gonna come back to it. But, gotta jump in. Same deal. Chicago, Illinois, Dad took up skiing at 20, 21. And turned us all on.
Bo Barrett:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
From age nothing to, you know. And he used to, we used to ski these little, wimpy hills, and ... Well, not wimpy. There are hills in Wisconsin. But, but then he'd drag us out west. And went to Vail and all that stuff. And he and his buddies discovered Alta Utah, just a mile up the road from Snowbird. And so right about the same time, I'm like a sophomore in high school. He was dragging us out to Alta, Utah. Because I remember Snowbird was opening and we thought that was the new, cool thing. But it was a really cool thing. All right. So you're on the second tram up.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah well but it's also like this, we were from L.A. and my dad was a-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
...we were told a Alta Park City. My dad, like I said, if I got a 3.2 average, he'd let me and my brother take a week off of school during the middle of winter. And we would take the train, two boys, like, 13 and 12, we got to go with the local ski club from L.A. Path Ski Club. And he would let us go on the train, by ourselves, stay in the dorms at Park City or Alta Gold Miner's Daughter, you remember, that-
Doug Shafer:
Gold Miner's Daughter, yeah. (laughs). I know it well.
Bo Barrett:
And so, and he would let us. And we'd go out there, by ourselves, and ski. And then we'd get on the-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Bo Barrett:
... train and come home. It was, like I said, it was a very free-range childhood. It was awesome. So our dads were the same. It was like-
Doug Shafer:
My father-
Bo Barrett:
... they were encouraging us to get into the good things of life. So-
Doug Shafer:
Very cool.
Bo Barrett:
Like I said, my, my neighborhood is getting into this very tribal ... There's actually book about it. The-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... tribes of Palos Verdes and stuff. And it became part of southern California surf lore for those-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
You know, those of us on the West Coast, they're into the surfing, and, you know, I still surf a little bit. Not ... In waves about waist-high, now.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
I'll only stand up, because of my back. But-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Bo Barrett:
... the, um. So with that, I decided to go to the University of Utah. And my dad-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
... said, “That's great. I'll pay for your tuition and your books.” And I said, “Well, what am I gonna eat?” He says, “Eat snow. I know where to go in Utah.” I said, “Where am I gonna live?” He goes, “Live on your skis. I know where you're gonna ... “ So I actually had to take my hard-earned money-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... from the winery, and then, be ... and so then ... And then, he was right. I went, I took classes at the University of Utah. So I, I'm a Ute. I went to the University of Utah.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
After 3:00 in the afternoon. So whatever they had: oceanography, chasseur whatever it was. 'Cause I, remember, I'm gonna be a lawyer, and his judge buddies have said, “It doesn't matter. Your BA or BS doesn't matter. The law school barely matters. It's just, pass the bar. And then work hard.” 'Cause the law business is a lot like ours, actually. Everybody gives Harvard all the credit, 'cause the rabbits get into Harvard. But, really, the snails or the tortoises are the ones who really are the best lawyers.
Doug Shafer:
Interesting. Interesting.
Bo Barrett:
But, anyway, so I s-
Doug Shafer:
So you're saying-
Bo Barrett:
... spent four years-
Doug Shafer:
You're, Y-You're skiing-
Bo Barrett:
... four whole years.
Doug Shafer:
You got four years?
Bo Barrett:
Four winters, skiing 100 days a year. So I had work at the winery, never had a car-
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Bo Barrett:
... always had, always pick, choose your roommates carefully. Pick one with a good four-wheel drive car to drive you up skiing.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
And, uh, so, then, the, by '76, I had found out there was, that's before Red Bull, or anything like that.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
And we were into mountaineering. So, I decided to, uh, go to Fresno State. And so, I switched over to-
Doug Shafer:
But you did four years at Utah.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Did you get-
Bo Barrett:
With part-time. Only two semesters.
Doug Shafer:
... a degree, or just part-time?
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
'Cause I never went up, 'cause I always worked, uh, summer and fall.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
So I would really leave the winery when things get slow after the harvest, just like-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... when you let cut your interns loose, basically, that was my job. I was the summer and fall-
Doug Shafer:
Summer and fall.
Bo Barrett:
... full-time intern, yeah. And, so then, I go to Utah, and when I ran out of money, I'd, uh, go up to Idaho Falls and fish for a while, and then when I really ran out of money-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
I'd come back and start working the cellar around May. So I usually did May through the end of November at the winery. And that is until I went to Fresno State in '76.
Doug Shafer:
So '76 Fresno State. Now, Fresno State, and what'd you study?
Bo Barrett:
Well, viticulture and enology. Again, you gotta get in your time machine. In 1976, UC Davis, enology is under fermentation science.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
It is not part of the, it's not part of the Ag school yet. I don't, I don't know, I didn't go to Davis, so I don't know when they combined 'em there. So I went to, was accepted to both the University of Davis and Fresno. So I go to uh, Davis, and I'm talking to 'em I said, “Well, um, I have a bit of work in a small winery, I need to do viticulture and enology.” They said, “Oh, that's perfect. You can get your bachelor's in one, and then your master's in the other.” And I said, “How long is that gonna take?” They said-
Doug Shafer:
Like six years.
Bo Barrett:
"Oh, six or seven years.”
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
And this is '72. The wine business, or this is '76, the wine business is exploding, right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
I go down to Fresno, and this is a true story. So I go to Fresno, same thing. Go in and start talking to the guys at the department, the, uh, counselor.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
I said, “Well, what I'm gonna do, is I'm gonna be a winemaker, and I need to manage a small winery. So I need to do ... I don't need to do microbiology. I need to do the business management stuff.” 'Cause Fresno had a pretty good business school at the time. And that, and, and I'm not kidding, in one day, in four hours, I went from that counselor to see Vince Petrucci. Vince Petrucci walk me across the street to see the dean, and his name was King. And so I went from, so I got to, Petrucci was second, I talked to the enology next.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
And then he got me in front of Vince, Vince Petrucci. The, you guys could look him up, he is just super famous in the California business.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bo Barrett:
And so-
Doug Shafer:
I've heard of him.
Bo Barrett:
... Vince, then, walks me across the street to talk to the Dean. This is in the same day, no appointment and I walk up there, and I tell the dean exactly my same story. He goes, “Great. We'll put you in AgEcon as your minor.”
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
“And, uh, and then you can take all the business classes.” And he waved me in and that was in one day. So that's why I went to Fresno State. And then I said, “But I need to take 20 units at a whack.” He goes, “Well, see how you do on the first 15.” So the dean ... So, then, I had to go see him after every semester and, 'til eventually I was taking like 22 units. And, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
You know, I got a -
Doug Shafer:
Well-
Bo Barrett:
I was a man on a mission at that point.
Doug Shafer:
Well, okay. But that's, that's the difference. So, at that point, you know, you, you'd had those four years, and you're skiing, and you're working in the winery, so it's like, not that you got serious, 'cause we'd never want to get serious in our lives. But, you had-
Bo Barrett:
But, I found that there was a job-
Doug Shafer:
You were, you were-
Bo Barrett:
I found the ideal job, where you don't have to be in an office all the time. You can earn, at that time, it was an honest living. You know, you gotta remember. Montelena doesn't make any money-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Bo Barrett:
... 'til really about 1990. You know, until we started really being profitable. It took, took forever. But, I found a job where I could be outside most of the time. And, you know, you have a winery. You know, it's not like an office. It's, you go into the winery, it's like your fort with all your friends and your toys. And it's not like having a job. You know, during harvest, you get, the, the stuff, it's, you know, you had tractors, and equipment, and-
Doug Shafer:
No.
Bo Barrett:
It's, it's, it's a gas, man.
Doug Shafer:
It's ... I'm, I'm, I'm...
Bo Barrett:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
We track the same way. 'Cause I'm a junior in high school in '73. We move out here, a year and a half finishing up. Dad's, you know, all of the sudden, I'm living on this ranch in this funky little house coming from suburban Chicago. This little, you know ...
Bo Barrett:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
There's no winery, here. We didn't build the winery 'til '80. You know, but I'm coming back from high school seeing Dad on a tractor, with a shit-eating grin on his face, you know with a straw hat. I've never seen him so happy in my life. I'm working on the weekends, hauling rocks out of the vineyard, hating it but kind of loving it.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And now I see him working with these guys, who, who, their office is a pickup truck. There's the, the, the water consultant, the irrigation guy, the, you know, the guy selling grapevines. And basically, that's when it clicked for me and said, “You know.” 'Cause I didn't know he was gonna do a winery. I just thought he was gonna grow grapes, I really didn't. So, you know, I think he did. But he wasn't telling anybody, including my mom.
Bo Barrett:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
And, when I said... I, I went to Davis to be a farmer. So I went to t- 'cause I just wanted, I wanted to wear jeans and live in a pickup, live, work out of a pickup truck. So I went to Davis to do the viticulture thing. And, uh, the lo and behold, I took some enology, but actually, I went another direction. I said, I wanted to teach, so all of the sudden, I started taking education classes, and went and taught school for a while. But that, too-
Bo Barrett:
That's actually a big part of the job.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
But the whole, the whole allure of the outdoor thing, you know, not being in an office, and, you know, now 30, 40 years later, I'm in an office most of time, or on an airplane. But, you know, God, you know, this first 10 or 15 years, here in the cellar, you're out in the vineyard. I mean, it's just, it's great. It's a great life.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's fun.
Bo Barrett:
It is.
Doug Shafer:
Did you know that were gonna have a... Did you know that, you know, you were doing this gig at Fresno State and it was like, you had a job to go to? Did you guys talk-
Bo Barrett:
No, not at all.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
That, that was a big surprise to me-
Doug Shafer:
'Cause knowing, knowing your Dad.
Bo Barrett:
Well, what happened, so, we're there, this is before we win the Paris Taste, remember I'm in Fresno.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
And you gotta remember, I don't know, your winery was, our winery was, OSHA wasn't really part of our job. And they had a couple of injuries. And so, I was at Fresno and at the California State Ag schools, you can get a waiver out of school and miss some school and not get kicked out. So, I had to go in, so they had a broken arm and a chopped off finger. So, Grgich called me, and said, “Hey, I need some help for like 10 days.” And so, same thing, you go in and tell the guy, “I need to take the, uh- “
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
“... the Ag school waiver for harvest to help out my family business.” So they let me go. And I'm, you know, everything's fine.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
And, but, it, not really uh, what happens is, that we win the Paris tasting. And, um, Mike Grgich leaves the company. Basically, the next day. He's off with Austin Hill starting his winery and God bless him.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
Good for him. That's his dream, he's always following his dream, and this is wonderful. But, my dad now doesn't have a winemaker. And Grgich took his whole wine-making team with him.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's, um-
Bo Barrett:
That's the cellar master, Aaron Mosley-
Doug Shafer:
Ohhh, no.
Bo Barrett:
The lead cellar worker, and they left us one recent graduate of Fresno State, Gary Galleron, you know, who Galleron is?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I remember Gary.
Bo Barrett:
So Galleron, Galleron is the only cellar worker, Gustavo Brambila all those guys, they go off to Grgich, 'cause they're loyal to their maestro.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man. Like, you know-
Bo Barrett:
So.
Doug Shafer:
And I can, you know and I can see your dad lighting it up, and he deserves to do as much as he wants. That's, that's-
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. No.
Doug Shafer:
That's tough.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. That was tough. So, but, you know, the golden lining, here, is, unbeknownst to most people, there's a famous American winemaker Jerry Luper.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
And he had made all those great Freemark Abbey wines. And then at the Paris tasting. The didn't win, either. You know, the wild card team from five years ago, who the hell was it? Nobody remembers. But, Luper-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
Is the only winemaker that had two wines qualify for the Paris tasting. He had the Freemark Chardonnay and the Cabernet Bouchet. So Luper-
Doug Shafer:
I forgot about that.
Bo Barrett:
... Luper is just coming back from France. Now, you gotta remember who Luper trained; me, Tom Rinaldi, Heidi, I mean, this guy's ... He was a absolutely genius maestro. Like, that, whether he really separated himself as, for his own wines, it, to, his strength was his coaching.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Bo Barrett:
And, so, but anyway, Luper comes back. So my dad lucks out. Now he's got a straight up, straight shooting, honest as the day is long, hard working, really intelligent guy, Jerry Luper. Who's made a lot of good wines and we love him 'cause he's cool, he can play the guitar, he can play Eagles songs, he's-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... got a beard, he's kind of hip. And he's cool. So all the younger guys, uh-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... just like ... so my dad hires Luper. So Luper ... Now, I'm down in Fresno. I don't know any of this is going on.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause you were-
Bo Barrett:
So my dad's-
Doug Shafer:
In Fresno, yeah-
Bo Barrett:
...not calling me.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah.
Bo Barrett:
I'm gone, I'm at Fresno State. So, the, so, Jerry says to, uh, this guy, Gary Galleron, “Hey, I, I need an assistant wine maker, here.” And Galleron says, “You should talk to Bo Barrett. He's down at Fresno State and he worked for Grgich for five years, here.”
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
And he's been around. He, I, and, so Galleron says, “He's actually the boss when he comes back here. He's actually Gus' boss when he comes, when he shows up for harvest.” So, Luper calls me up, out of the blue at Fresno. “Hey, this is Jerry.” “Jerry, what are you calling me about?”
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
He goes, “I want you to come to work for me as an assistant winemaker up at Montelena.” I said, “Well, I gotta, I gotta do an independent study this fall.”
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
He goes, “That doesn't matter. You can do an independent study.” So, I guess I only needs like three more units or something at Fresno to get out of there. So, so, actually, so I didn't really, actually work for my Dad 'til '82 when I came back after I'd quit Montelena so I, I worked for Jerry all the way through the harvest of 1980.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
So it's, moving up to 1980, the wine business is, now, it's really starting to explode. And people are walking out of Davis, and lead winemaker jobs with no experience whatsoever. Like maybe one internship in France. And so, now I got, you know, at least, you know, five year’s experience as, I've done my apprenticeship from Mike Grgich, my journeymanship with Jerry Luper, I got my credentials from Fresno State. So now, I'm ready to be a, a winemaker.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
And so-
Doug Shafer:
'Cause you'd be, 'cause you'd been more or less at, off and on at Montelena for like eight or nine years.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, for 10.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, 10 years.
Bo Barrett:
So, really, yeah-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
... eight or nine years by this time.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
So, I had told my dad I was ready for, to be a winemaker. And he said, “Good luck.” And he sent me on down the road. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
And-
Doug Shafer:
I know, I know that ... by the way, I know that conversation.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, yeah, I know- I'm ready to be the winemaker. And he goes, “Jerry's my winemaker. Good luck, kid.” You know? And so, so then I take off.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
And, um-
Doug Shafer:
I'm sorry. Mine's(laughs) ... I'm sorry.
Bo Barrett:
You know, it takes two for that.
Doug Shafer:
I was teaching school, it was my second year, Christmas-time. I was back for Christmas. I knew I was gonna come back to the wine business, you know. And so I was actually said to Dad, and, at this point he had a winery, he had a winemaker. But I just said, “Hey, I'm gonna leave teaching and come back to the wine business.” Never even thinking I was gonna work with him at all. I just wanted to come back and start working in the cellar somewhere. And so, I told him I'd come back to the wine business. He goes, “Well, I don't have a job for you.” (laughs).
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
It's like, “Wow, can you be a little nicer about that?”
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But -
Bo Barrett:
But it was go- it ended up good, and-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... you know, our d- we learned a lot from our dads. You know, what to do, and what not to do-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... it seems like. But like, my daughter, Chelsea, she's a winemaker down here at Materra now. It's the same, you know, the anti-nepotism thing that our dads taught us it, it's really important-
Doug Shafer:
Very important.
Bo Barrett:
Because you see so many wineries that are crushed by nepotism. You know, they get Junior in there, and they're driving his Ferrari, and the winery's in the toilet-
Doug Shafer:
No, no-
Bo Barrett:
... five years later-
Doug Shafer:
I'm with ya.
Bo Barrett:
...And, or wholesalers, you know, we, you, how many times have you seen that happen? Nepotism, it just crushes businesses. But, anyway, so, and then, I was down in, um ... So finally I took a job, it's you know where Ancient Peaks is now? It's called cra- it was called Indian Creek at the time, later, Creston-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
Remember Alex Trebek's place-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
In Creston, California?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
Down in San Luis Obispo... So, the first winery I designed was, is now Ancient Peaks. Is their tank room, now. But it was a cut and cover, I adapted some Idaho potato technology. The guys didn't have a lot of money. So, I did a cut and cover before it'd been invented. I took it from the, actually, from the spud business. I had seen-
Doug Shafer:
How fun.
Bo Barrett:
... in Idaho-
Doug Shafer:
How neat.
Bo Barrett:
.... so many times, so I did a cut and cover for these guys and it's still working. And so, I was happily designing a winery, gonna start, do this build-out thing. And my dad calls me up, and said, uh, “Jerr- Jerr-” and this was completely out of the blue. I mean, I'm just moved to Fresno. I've only been ... I've been in Creston and, you know, Saint Luis Obispo for, I don't know, b- um-
Doug Shafer:
A year?
Bo Barrett:
Maybe six months.
Doug Shafer:
Six months.
Bo Barrett:
Six, eight months-
Doug Shafer:
So it's like '81-
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, less than a- it was definitely less than a year.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
So I'm all down there, and I got this-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... vineyard it's gonna be 400 acres. It's going to be big. It's going to, it's a good project. I'm like a total monk.
Doug Shafer:
Well, you're the winemaker, right?
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, I'm the winemaker. GM, everything. It's like designing the vineyards, I'm just, this whole thing, I got this whole deal. And Dad calls me up, and says, “Hey, I, uh, Jerry got a partnership job.” 'Cause that's when Jerry got the partnership job at Bouchaine. So, Garret and Tatiana had offered Jerry a partnership. Which my dad did not do, 'cause Grgich had been a partner, and getting rid of that partner was not easy. So, my dad, he, You work for Jim, you're not a partner. You know?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
So, um-
Doug Shafer:
So Bouchaine down in Carneros
Bo Barrett:
So, he went to Bouchaine in Carneros. And, so now my dad needs a winemaker. And he, and so he goes, “Well, Jerry, who should I hire?” My Dad and Jerry were really tight. It was, it was-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... a tough decision for Jerry. I mean, I'm not kidding. Jerry and I have been trading e-mails this week.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Bo Barrett:
You know, okay. He lives in France, now.
Doug Shafer:
I know. Because he, he left town, and there's so many people in this valley, in this business that don't know-
Bo Barrett:
He, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
What a, A, what a great guy he is and B, what a fantastic winemaker. And what he did, and how many winemakers' lives he touched.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. And, the, his tr- like I said, the training, you know, 'cause the Duckhorn, when Tom Rinaldi was there, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
... was there, you know, Heidi, up at La Sirena, I mean, and, uh, not La Sirena but, you know, the Dalla Valle, and the Screaming Eagle, all that stuff. That really, you know, he was the coach that taught us a lot about how to do stuff. Now, Heidi with her dad, that you, you can't downplay that. That's just-
Doug Shafer:
You can't. (laughs).
Bo Barrett:
But, in my case, you know, and I got to train under Mike Grgich and Jerry Luper. So, you know, I had, I had a benefit of having, you know, several excellent mentors, coaches-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
... in the business, you know, including Justin Meyer you know but, 'cause as you know, I married up. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Bo Barrett:
So I got to meet Justin and Joe Heitz and all those guys by the simple fact of marrying, you know, one of the most intelligent and articulate, and at that t- and, and beautiful young ladies in Napa.
Doug Shafer:
Well, she didn't do too bad herself.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. So, but anyway-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... circling back, so the old man called me. And, uh, offered me a job in '82. And that's actually when I first started working for my father, it wasn't 'til then. Because it had always been the Navy. I worked for John Rolleri or I worked for Mike Grgich, I worked for Jerry. I'd never worked for Jim Barrett, I always worked for his officer corps.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
And it was a very da- and I still, d- typically do run Montelena in very much in Navy style. We have an officer corps, enlisted corps, and everybody knows where they fit in the-
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Bo Barrett:
... chain of command. And it's very ... The thing is, when you have a very tightly run ship, you can be very relaxed.
Doug Shafer:
Interesting. That's why you're so relaxed all these years.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
And you know you look at me, and go, “Shafer, why are you so uptight?”
Bo Barrett:
Well, because-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... you work at the office. But I make other people do that. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
We're gonna have to go have a long lunch. So he, so he called you up, 'cause Jerry said, “Hire Bo.”
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, and and y-you went for it. Did you guys-
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, no, well-
Doug Shafer:
...long discussion?
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. That was, it took about three days because my father, I knew him by then, and he knew me pretty well, and basically what we said is, “I will take this job, if you will treat me like you've treated every other of the professional winemakers that you've had.” 'Cause he treated 'em very well. He treated Grgich well, he treated Luper well. He was a very responsive, authoritarian, you know, firm, but unreasonable boss but you could always count on him.
Doug Shafer:
Hm.
Bo Barrett:
And he was, he was non-interfering, which is, you've been in the business enough. When the owner are interfering with the creative side, that's, gets to be a problem. Like, I need you to make the wine just like Silver Oak-
Doug Shafer:
Someone else.
Bo Barrett:
... or something. That, that's a recipe for disaster. And he never did that. He said, “I need you to make Montelena Wines.” So basically, my c-conditions were, uh, you have to treat me like the other guys. You can never treat me like sunny boy and he goes, “You're darn, you're damn right, you know-”
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Bo Barrett:
“I can't treat you like sunny boy, if you make shitty wine, I'm gonna fire your ass.” And I said, “That's a totally straight up deal. I'm ready for that.” So, it a, so, then we would limit our father and son stuff. It was, he was good at compartmentalizing, too. So we always fished together, and flew together, and like when I flew with him, I was his, by that time, I was a better pilot, I was his chief pilot, and he-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
... eventually conceded that. But on the wine making and things like that ... And he, uh, he'd he he kept a good check on me. Lots of time when I wanted buy a vineyard, you know, these were screaming deals, that we should have bought.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
As I looked at it through, you know, the times we have recessions and I'm, I'm really glad that he had that rule to keep Chateau Montelena small, that we're, you know, still the same size we were in 1990. And it really is a nice size that be, and he did it, just 'cause the Bordeaux first growth, so, 35, to 50,000 cases. And he didn't ever want to make more.
Bo Barrett:
So, and that, we're still a small winery, and we're still, you know, making 100,000 gallons of wine and we don't have to be all things to all people. It is, so, a lot of his things that we didn't agree with, I could certainly agree with his philosophy. But that we passed up on a couple of vineyards. Yeah, there's several that I, I wish we would have had a buy-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
... had boughten. The wineries that we went in to buy, I'm probably glad that those deals fell through, uh, now.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
That-
Doug Shafer:
I had a couple, I've had a couple of those.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, that-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
You know, the Lord works in mysterious ways.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, like, oh my gosh. I'm so glad we didn't do that.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. Exactly.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
And so, and e-especially, you know, when times are great, like the last five years are, you know, it's our bus- I was talking to David Duncan do you talk to him yet? Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
Dave Duncan 'cause I had, we were yucking it up about how great things were. This was probably, I don't know, 10 years ago when it was a really, one of the good cycles.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
And he goes, and, uh-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... wh-what did he say? He says, “Yeah. Uh, it's never been better and it's never gonna end, again.” (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs). So true. I think, well, you and I've been, you've been doing this the same length of time. We've had a good two or three cycles.
Bo Barrett:
Hm.
Doug Shafer:
You know. For sure.
Bo Barrett:
Definitely. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Um, so, s- help me out on s- dates. 'Cause I'm losing track. So you're, so you've, you became winemaker at Montelena, '82, '83?
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. '82.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Got it.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Another similarity. '83 for me, here-
Bo Barrett:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
... at Shafer. So we-
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... were tracking, no wonder I never saw you-
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, exactly.
Doug Shafer:
... 'cause we were busy.
Bo Barrett:
That, that was a busy time, in '83. Then my dad finally moved up around '85. So there was, that was the toga party you're just like, when I'm running the show.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, that was the, the inmates are in charge of the asylum. You know, and then the old man moves up and things kind of calm down a little bit.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Bo Barrett:
And then I stayed through-
Doug Shafer:
When, when, when-
Bo Barrett:
well-
Doug Shafer:
... when you jumped on board, did, did you make a lot of changes, or just kinda keep going? 'Cause you guys had a pretty good prior-
Bo Barrett:
Well, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... track record with-
Bo Barrett:
The where, my ... Jerry really was terrific, uh, on shaping the Estate Cab program.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
You know, he was, he was clearly more masterful, uh, in the Cabernet world. And even though he had some pretty crappy equipment at that time. You know, you gotta remember, we're still picking in the day, and it's 100 degrees. But-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
But, so Jerry's mastery was really the estate Cabernet. And that was really his job. To make sure, you know, cement that program. 'Cause, you know, he takes over in '77. And that's 75% of Estate Cab. So, Jerry really develops the Montelena Estate Cab.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
So, then, I came up-
Doug Shafer:
I'm with you.
Bo Barrett:
... in, uh, two th- in '82, and it wasn't 'til like '84, where we started filtering into barrels, uh, 'cause we had a lot of Brett.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Bo Barrett:
... and, you know, and back in those days, you know, what, they used to call it terroir, that you and I both, know, was really the Brett the terroir was really a-
Doug Shafer:
It was Brett.
Bo Barrett:
W-was, was a buy, you know, was a microbial signature of the house.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Bo Barrett:
So our Brett tasted different then your Brett, which is different then, you know, Heitz's Brett and everybody else's Brett. And you know, and-
Doug Shafer:
You know, I never thought-
Bo Barrett:
The most amazing, those are amazing wines still.
Doug Shafer:
I never thought about that, but I think you're really right.
Bo Barrett:
No terroir it was definitely and-
Doug Shafer:
It's all Brett.
Bo Barrett:
... and it lasted longer in France than it did here.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
We, the wineries in Cal- this is what, that's a- really when Napa Valley took over the world, if you think about it. Where we really started making run of successes of Bordeaux Chateau is when we stopped using so much Brett and started using our, our great vineyard flavors.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
And that was really-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
That really suited Napa's niche in the world, where, you know, your vineyard, your Cabernet, it could be the same rootstock and the same clone, and the same farming. But your Cabernet's gonna taste so different then mine.
Doug Shafer:
So different.
Bo Barrett:
But, your Brett's gonna be more similar-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... than dis-similar, you know what I mean? And you can use the same cooper, so this is where the Americans in Cabernet, or Napa Valley, in particular-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... really starts-
Doug Shafer:
But once we start-
Bo Barrett:
... really impacting the world.
Doug Shafer:
Once we cleaned up our wines-
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... it happened with us.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I mean, amazing.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. So in '84, I started filtering. And these are tough-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... decisions you're making. And I, like taking out the press, making different press cuts and so, yeah, sure, I made some changes that were all, you know, in that progression, that, you know, Shafer has done, all of the successful wineries have done the exact same thing. Take your core mission to make these amazing wines. But then to make 'em as the bar of quality. You remember, the '70s, '80s, it was easy to find crappy wines.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Bo Barrett:
From anywhere-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... around the world.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yes.
Bo Barrett:
Now, you go to a wine sh- you can go to the cheapest, most inferior wine that you find at Long's Drugs, I'm not even talking about Costco.
Doug Shafer:
It's solid.
Bo Barrett:
We, there, these-
Doug Shafer:
It's okay.
Bo Barrett:
... are solid products.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
So in the early days, you make a wine, and it was decent. This is great.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
But, now, you know, everybody's making such amazing wine. So, then, you know, well, whether it's here at Shafer, or us, or all of our, you know, in our league certainly, we all have to work really hard to, you know, keep up, you know, 'cause you're after my customers, and I'm after yours. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
You bet.
Bo Barrett:
You know what I mean?
Doug Shafer:
You bet.
Bo Barrett:
And that's a very, odd, it's a, keeps us honest. It, but, you know the beneficiary of it is our customers.
Doug Shafer:
Oh there's-
Bo Barrett:
That they get-
Doug Shafer:
There's never been more great choices across the spectrum of, for the consumers.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So it's great.
Bo Barrett:
So, but anyway, back to the Brett. So, yeah, sure, we changed things over the years.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
And, you know, the other funnier thing is as you get through equipment. Because you think-
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Bo Barrett:
... the old Healdsburg crusher destemmer -
Doug Shafer:
Did you have one of those, too?
Bo Barrett:
Oh, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
This is called a Healdsburg crusher stemmer, and man, it was (laughs) it's like a Waring blender of the stemmer crushers.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, we call it the Cuisinart.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
And, like ... our Chardonnay, our Chardonnay always had this green color. And, um,-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Bo Barrett:
I was talking to Warren [Winiarski] one time. And he goes, “I can always pick Montelena out of a tasting.” I said, “Why?” He goes, “I love the green color. How do you accomplish that?” I'm going, uh.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
(laughs). It was that old Healdsburg grape disintegrator.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Bo Barrett:
But, yeah, we didn't change that 'til '89. 'Cause, you know, remember '87, '88.
Doug Shafer:
Remember -?
Bo Barrett:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
We used to crush Chardonnay in that thing.
Bo Barrett:
Oh, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Ohhh.
Bo Barrett:
Riesling.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, no. You did Riesling?
Bo Barrett:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
This is before whole, this is before whole cluster pressing, where we put everything through the crusher.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And it was just like ... And with white grapes, it's just kind of, uh, it's kind of ... not really a good thing to.
Bo Barrett:
We crushed, well, we do still about half Chardonnay, still.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
We have, but we have the, which is totally different, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
So we're not using the green part. Actually, I want to put some green in, this year. Just see how it-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
... works out.
Doug Shafer:
All right.
Bo Barrett:
But, uh-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, I mean so Warren said “I could always tell the Montelena Chardonnay, because the thing.” ... And also, remember how long we used to use barrels. That was the most amazing thing. Like our Chardonnay-
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Bo Barrett:
... barrels, like 12 year old Chardonnay barrels.
Doug Shafer:
No kidding.
Bo Barrett:
Oh yeah. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
You know something? Can I, can I j- I'm interrupting again. But, I, I'll, you know. I'm on board. I'm the winemaker. I've been here, I don't know, five, six, seven, eight, you know, eight or nine years. Elias has been with me six or seven of 'em, we're starting to turn the corner. You know, we've still got a ways to go. I'm trying to be, you know, but I, but I'm close with Dad, and, you know, he's, you know, I'm in the loop on budgets and financials, so cash flow. So I'm, you know, I'm tracking with that. 'Cause he's teaching me, which is great. And you know, so I'm real sensitive about that. You know, I don't want to spend too much money. So, you know, I had barrels. I had old barrels. I had, like, eight, nine year old barrels around here. You know, we'd get a few new ones every year, but you know, like -. You know? And, you know, doing the right thing. And then, within a year or so of that, we promoted Elias to winemaker, 'cause Dad says, you know, “Doug, you gotta be president.” I said, “Great. Great.” So the first thing Elias does, is he walks into Dad's office, now that he's winemaker, and says, “John, this is what I need.” And it's like, you know, I need, he needed like ... (laughs).
Bo Barrett:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
He needed like a whole lotta new barrels. And it's like, the, the price tag was major. And, and Dad goes, “Great. We can do that.” And I'm like going, “Wait a minute.” (laughs).
Bo Barrett:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
I was trying to be... So, no more nine year old barrels around here.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But I remember that.
Bo Barrett:
No Jim, Jim on the other, my dad, that was what, because he didn't really know exactly what we were doing in the winemaking.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
And then, his mantra was, If it makes the wine better-
Doug Shafer:
Hm.
Bo Barrett:
... and it makes your job easier. I will find the money for it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
So-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
But, we were always very responsible about that. I'm I am not joking. We still have a 1984, the first forklift we ever, the first new piece of equipment-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
... we ever bought was an '84 Cat forklift.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Bo Barrett:
We still have it. It's out at the vineyard shop. So, when you learn up, 'cause everything was borrowed in those days. Like, when we bottled-
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Bo Barrett:
You know, Mike Grgich had sent me down to see Roy Raymond over at-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... Beringer-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... and I'd borrow a hand labeler.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
And then I'd go to somebody else, and I'd scrounge up, uh, you know th-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... the corkers and stuff like that.
Doug Shafer:
Or you need a hand spinner from somebody-
Bo Barrett:
Oh, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... hey can I borrow it-
Bo Barrett:
Oh yeah, all that stuff-
Doug Shafer:
... you know that type thing-
Bo Barrett:
... just we were always, you know, borrowing, or you needed a-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
... dump truck. You gotta go get it and-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
It was, you know, it was pretty, you know ... I don't know, I can't remember when the first year we bought a brand-new tractor, it was probably about 1990.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
Something like that.
Doug Shafer:
We had a lot of old tractors-
Bo Barrett:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
... around here. (laughs).
Bo Barrett:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
Um, you mentioned, uh, her name earlier, uh, at some point in this whole timeline, you meet your bride, Heidi. How'd you guys meet?
Bo Barrett:
Well, we met t-two ways (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
Okay. We met professionally first, and it didn't work out so hot, but she was out of that great class at UC Davis, there was a class at Davis that got finished I dunno, '80, '81, whenever it was, where it was Heidi, and both Rose and Bruce Cakebread, and Randall Graham, and Rollin Soles, and-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
You know, a whole... So she came out of there and Jerry Luper had hired the Texan Rollin Soles, who later had the great career at Argyle-
Doug Shafer:
Okay, right.
Bo Barrett:
You know, up in Oregon, and now ROCO Wines, but so... Jerry Luper hires Rollin and Rollin comes from Davis.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
And I happen to have an apartment in the upstairs of my house called 'The Hovel,' and Rollin moved into The Hovel...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Bo Barrett:
So Rollin says, "Hey, let's start a tasting group!" And I hadn't been in a tasting group, 'cause I had this infant son, I was- by this time I'm a single divorced parent will full custody of a two-year-old child.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Bo Barrett:
So I have an extremely busy life, I'm workin' in the cellar full-time-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
And have a baby all by myself. My folks still live in LA. You know, I have no back-up here, so I was-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
Anyway, Rollin starts this tasting group, people come to my house, and he invites, you know Bob Levy and Heidi, and all of his mob from Davis, and so then there's-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Bo Barrett:
-me and Gerard Zanzonico, you remember him
Doug Shafer:
I remember Gerard, yeah. Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
And so Gerard... So I give this tasting group and, uh... But, it was, you know, Heidi walked into my house, saw what was goin' on, and she had no interest at all, what was goin' on there. So then I-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Bo Barrett:
I quit Montelena, and I went to Europe, and I came back, and I was coming home from Parke Hafner's wedding down in Berkeley, you know Hafner, up in Alexander Valley, and of course now I've got my skinny tie, and I'm all cleaned up-
Doug Shafer:
Parke and...Parke and I -
Bo Barrett:
Parke and Sarah-
Doug Shafer:
Parke and I were lab partners at UC Davis freshman year.
Bo Barrett:
Okay, so anyway, Parke gets married to Sarah down in, uh, in Berkeley-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
So I'm comin' home with my 80s skinny tie-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
-and all that stuff. And I walk in the Yountville Saloon, which I'm sure you remember.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Bo Barrett:
Of course, yeah. So I walk in the Yountville Saloon, and Heidi's sittin' there in a UC Davis crew sweatshirt, you know, so I'm dressed up and she's not, and it was just a lightning bolt. We looked across the room, next thing you know we were goin' on a date.
Doug Shafer:
Oh man.
Bo Barrett:
33 years later...you know, two kids, and she helped me... So then, you know, she, even with my... I was kind of a project that-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Bo Barrett:
-you know 'cause I've got this kid, and all I did was hunt and ski and fish, and, you know...
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
Do whatever I wanted. And it turns out, and fly airplanes, and so Heidi was takin' flying lessons, she skied ... She didn't hunt or fish, but I taught her how to fish, which is one of my greatest regrets of my life, 'cause she always catches more-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Bo Barrett:
-and bigger fish than I catch. And then for hunting, she didn't like the blood part, but I got her into mushroom huntin' and so-
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Bo Barrett:
-foraging, so she likes that. So it turned out, uh... She's just, we just had so many mutual-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's-
Bo Barrett:
-interests, and I told you what I... When we walked in today, we just finished, you know, 24 hours under water, you know 20... 24 dives in 14 days.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Bo Barrett:
You know, she was with me on every single one.
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Bo Barrett:
So that was good.
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah. So I met Heidi, and clearly she, with Dick Peterson having been the winemaker at BV... Uh, at that time he was down building the Monterey, had built
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
-the Monterey vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.
Bo Barrett:
So I went down, met him down there, but, you know, he was already a big name in the business by then.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
And Heidi was working with Justin Meyer, so when I- When I met Heidi
Doug Shafer:
That's what- that's what I didn't catch earlier, okay. I didn't know she, I didn't know she worked with Justin.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, when I met Heidi, that's where, clearly that I married up.
Doug Shafer:
Sil- sil- Silver Oak.
Bo Barrett:
Si- Silver Oak, yeah, and this is when Silver Oak is still at Franciscan, 'cause she's workin' a lot with Franciscan, so, before they built Silver Oak, uh... Franc- uh, they were makin' the Silver Oak at Franciscan, 'cause Justin was the winemaker there.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
So in the early days of Silver Oak Heidi was part of that, and so, by... started hangin' out and event- and eventually marryin' Heidi, then I got to meet, you know, all, all that circle that she'd grown up with when it was, you know, the Heitzes-
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah-
Bo Barrett:
The Martinis, and basically everybody. And so it was definitely I went, you know, from the bush leagues into the big leagues (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Bo Barrett:
And like I said, I very proudly say I married up, there is no question about that.
Doug Shafer:
Oh no, yeah, I'd say it's mutual.
Bo Barrett:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I'd say it's mutual. I'd say it's mutual. You know, Heidi's great, you're great, you're uh, you're no slouch, my friend. And you're, you know, we were all projects at that age.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, that's true.
Doug Shafer:
You know, I mean... I can't go there 'cause-
Bo Barrett:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
M- my- I have to- my kids are great, th- they said, "Dad, we love all your stories." I said, and they go, "God, you were a derelict." It's pretty funny to listen to.
Bo Barrett:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
But, uh... Rollin' along, I gotta talk about 2008, 'cause all sorts of things happened in 2008 for you guys. I think the winery was almost purchased, you were in the, you, you had the Bottle Shock movie based on Montelena, and you and Heidi started a wine brand. Anything else happen that year (laughs), or is that the big three?
Bo Barrett:
No, the financial crisis happened.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah, yeah!
Bo Barrett:
Don't forget about that.
Doug Shafer:
So- so what, so- let's start with the story. You guys were in contract with some French folks.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, it was, actually it was a Swiss guy, Rebier, that owned Cos d'Estournel and he had been putting money in build, rebuilding that one. And my dad had come to the conclusion that his estate was too complicated and Montelena was difficult and it -
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Bo Barrett:
And that probably, for the family business would probably not survive the estate tax business and.
Doug Shafer:
Good point.
Bo Barrett:
You got to remember, before the economic collapse of late 2008, it was a boom time on everything.
Doug Shafer:
Boom.
Bo Barrett:
And the prices were really high out here because Mountain Valley was still just crazy. So, people were offering him crazy money for the winery, and he said, "I'm going to sell it." because we were a monarchy at the time and a lot of us did not want to sell it. My mom in particular who owned 47.5%, me who owned 5, but it was a limited partnership and that general partner is the king.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
So, we worked for a while to find the right buyer for the place and the Rebier guys, uh and the Cos d’Estournel, they had the right idea because we saw what they had been doing and the investments they made. So anyway, we made a deal with them, and we actually sold the winery. And, I quit being the winemaker for them and that's when Cam Perry was promoted to winemaker
Doug Shafer:
Okay
Bo Barrett:
And I was, then I was master winemaker, and basically stepping away and I was going to be like titular staff for the three to five years and then.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
You know, they're going to own the winery.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
And it was good because their winemaker was a super pro guy. He was Basque guy, he wasn't a Bordelaise, and so we got along great, but the Bordelaise, the Champagne guys, who was running it. I'm not going to name names but this guy was like a champenoise guy and we're all saying nice things like, we're going to work together, but he was a -
Doug Shafer:
Not going to happen.
Bo Barrett:
It wasn't going to happen, you know there, like he, people that know me know exactly what I was going to say right there. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Bo Barrett:
So anyway, and it wasn't a pud, but he was a pud. But anyway, so, they move in for the harvest of 2008. And so, because now I needed a job to do, because you know, that was ten years ago, or eleven now. So, I needed a job so Heidi and I had our own family vineyards at that time and we had been selling all the grapes to Montelena and then some to Heidi for La Sirena. So we decided to cut out a little bit and make the Barrett & Barrett.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
And that was going to be my, I was going to build, we bought a property on an old toll road. I was going to build a small winery there. And we were going to build something for our kids because -
Doug Shafer:
Nice, yeah.
Bo Barrett:
There could be, uh so, because our daughter by this time had decided to, because our kids were growing up that I had done the same thing, they're like, I don't care what you do. I don't care if you're a marine biologist, a doctor, astronaut, lawyer, surgeon -
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
Indian chief. Do not go in this business. It's way too much work for way too little money.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Bo Barrett:
And that worked like a champ, they're both in it.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
I got one that got off. My son Seamus was the first one I'm talking about. He's an attorney in -
Doug Shafer:
He's an attorney?
Bo Barrett:
In Manhattan, so ...
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Bo Barrett:
Well, you got to remember, he grew up in the farm, when the only meat we ate was deer meat or fish I caught.
Doug Shafer:
Listen man, I remember seeing you with lugging him around like, like at wine tastings or, you know barbecues and stuff. It's like hey Bo, I didn't know you that well. It's like Bo, you got a kid. He's like yeah Schafer, I got a kid.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, No I was only 23. Irish Catholic kid in college. What are you going to do, you know?
Doug Shafer:
No, it's fine.
Bo Barrett:
It was good, I learned a lot from him, too. I owe him a great debt, because I learned so much from having him
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Bo Barrett:
I really grew up fast.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
And, you know a lot of my friends that never grew up.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
That you know them and they never went anywhere.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
By being forced to grow up so fast, like at 23, I was responsible for somebody besides myself. That, that's a tough thing to do, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
Because most people are just, you can barely take care of yourself when you're 23. And now you got this two year old infant. It's like oh, good luck with that, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Boy, that'll, that'll get you tuned up.
Bo Barrett:
But anyway, uh I forget where I was going.
Doug Shafer:
Well you guys, you started Barrett & Barrett.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, we started Barrett & Barrett, but then the economic collapse hit and..
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah. Bo Barrett The dollar, you got to remember the dollar goes up 14% in 48 hours.
Doug Shafer:
I had forgotten about that one.
Bo Barrett:
Yes, so all of the sudden, they want to renegotiate the deal. No, the deal's in dollars pal, we don't care about the Euro. So, they moved in, so we had two closings, and this, technically we had the operational close because they wanted to make any money that was made from the movie coming out. Because remember, everybody, before the economic collapse. So, the movie's going to come out and so, if the film is going to come out then there's going to be sales and blah, blah, blah. So, we had a operational close and then a financial close. Well, the financial close failed. So, nobody got the winery back. And the best thing that happened was, my father had come to regret that he had to sell it. So, you know, as I said earlier, the Lord works in mysterious ways. I've told Mike Tobbs, our guy before, I said you know why the economic collapse happened in general? So, the Chateau Montelena could be kept by the Barrett's. (laughs) Because it worked like a champ.
Doug Shafer:
Of course.
Bo Barrett:
It really did, so those guys bailed. We got the winery back and the best thing that had happened was everything I told my dad about just like Elias, I said dad we got to replant these vineyards. And he goes, "Hey, I'm 75 years old, I don't even buy green bananas anymore." We got to plant these vineyards. "No." So, he wouldn't give us the money to replant and the winery is a 1972 batch process size winery. It's all 8 or 10 ton tanks, it's all batch process. This is history.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
Nobody makes wine like that anymore. We're all in this, you know, viticulture specific, micro lots, and stuff like that. So, we needed a brand new cellar. You know, that's going to be another 5, 10 million bucks, and so, the best thing that happened was. And I said, we're not going to use your money, we won't use partner's money, we'll just use, you know, a line of credit, or borrow money, because we're profitable, we can afford it. And to his credit my dad said you're right. So, it really took the French guys telling him what they were going to do with the company, was the exact same thing that I had been saying for 10 years. So, then he took the wheel, he took the brakes off, he said "Okay, it's your company, run it the way you want."
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Bo Barrett:
I'm still the CEO but I'll do what you tell me most of the time.
Doug Shafer:
So, that was like 11 years ago?
Bo Barrett:
That's right, yeah. So, we got the new winery, so we gutted the winery, did our sizes and retrofit. Um, started a replant program, and uh did all the things and so, by, by the time he died, Montelena was in a, really in a great renaissance now.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
Because we were making better wine than we had ever made. We have the equipment, the tools, the you know, state of the art facility. And he saw all of those things happen before he passed away.
Doug Shafer:
Good. Was he happy about it?
Bo Barrett:
He was extremely happy. He was as excited as we are, you know.
Doug Shafer:
That's so cool.
Bo Barrett:
So, yeah, he saw, he saw all of that good stuff. He did not, unfortunately, the 2008 through 2012 planting, all got red blotched. So, I mean, but luckily, he didn't live long enough to see that very expensive slump.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
Because we're now in the third planting. So, that second planting, pretty much, we had planted about 40 of the 100 acres that are on that one. And, so that's all got to be changed out definitely.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, well look what we've gone through. We all had the Phylloxera thing, back you know, late 80s, early 90s. And now we go this red blotch thing. It's, there's always something. It's agriculture.
Bo Barrett:
That's what I tell people, it's like you got to, it's still agriculture. You know, we had a, we, we had a hedge fund manager from like Connecticut bought one of the vineyards, one of our leases. You know, because now we're a landlord. And we were buying the grapes from a previous landlord, that's not on our lease. And he got these guys come in and he's going to start making wine and stuff like that and he got smoked the first year. And I said, welcome to agriculture, pal.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
You know.
Doug Shafer:
And, you know that's, it's almost like we should publicize that it is agriculture because sometimes the wine press says, oh this is gloom and doom, this is the end of all. It's not, because we've had numerous things like this. You know, 10, 8 to 10, in my career. And we get through it, we figure out how to do it. Pierce's disease, this and that, and you keep, we, we figure out how to do it and keep going on just like anybody in agriculture, and it's kind of like, that's just part of the game.
Doug Shafer:
But tell me about, tell me, I want to hear about the movie.
Bo Barrett:
Ha-ha. Okay, so the movie.
Doug Shafer:
The movie called Bottle Shock. Basically the Chateau Montelena Story, right?
Bo Barrett:
Well, yeah, it's. Yeah, every word of it's.
Doug Shafer:
By the way, you were really handsome in the movie. I want to tell you that.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, thanks. Except for the straight hair. I had, bro I had the afro, you remember when I had hair.
Doug Shafer:
Uh-huh. I do.
Bo Barrett:
I had the big blonde afro. But um, the movie, what happened was, down in Los Angeles. You got time for the long version?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
Okay, so remember the name Gary Galleon.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
Well Galleon starts his own brand and he's down in Los Angeles talking story about the old days of Chateau Montelena, and a guy named, I believe Sherman Schwartz, no um, Ross Schwartz.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
And his, his dad was Sherman Schwartz, who had done Gilligan's Island. Now he's a Los Angeles entertainment attorney but like any Los Angeles entertainment attorney, he's gonna write a screenplay. So, Galleron, tells the stories of some of the hijinks that have happened at Chateau Montelena over the years. So, this guy writes a screenplay.
Doug Shafer:
Usually the ones with you in the middle of them, you know of course.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, so a rag tag team of misfits are getting into all kinds of mischief and making these great wines.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Bo Barrett:
So, he writes this screenplay called Bottle Shock, which is essentially the Mighty Ducks make wine, or the Bad News Bears make wine.
Doug Shafer:
The Bad News Bears, got you, right.
Bo Barrett:
So that, he brings us to the screenplay, and he ask, asks us to sign off and I did. I just couldn't, no, this is not, this is not, this is not going to work.
Doug Shafer:
Good for you.
Bo Barrett:
And so then, a couple years go by, several, and they, these other guys, Randy Miller and Jody, they've said we've bought this screenplay and we're going to fix it up and we're going to do this movie Bottle Shock. It's a love story to California wine.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
And so, I said, oh yeah sure. What's it going to be 8 minutes long? You know, it's like, what you guys working hard in one tasting. How are you going to make a movie out of that? It's going to be 8 minutes long. They said, no no no, we're going to add a bunch of drama and we're going to add some romance to it. I go, oh great, you know. But no, who's going to go to a movie, everybody knows what happens.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
He goes, yeah but um, everybody went to Miracle on Ice. And I said, okay well whatever, it's your money, so they write the screenplay. They ran it by us, and it was as there, it made everybody look good, there was no bad guys in this whole movie.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
Even the French just come off as surprised, and so, they get us, my dad in particular to sign off for the life rights, because you know, you got to sign off this stuff. And some people like, Mike Grgich, you know, he decided not to be in the movie because they had all these contacts. Because how did they get Alan Rickman, and you know Dennis Farina, and you know Bill Pullman, and even the young Chris Pine. Well, for Grgich, they were going to have Danny DeVito.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Does he know that?
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, so that's why he pulls the plug. He says, "If you say Grgich anywhere in this movie, I'm going to sue you." So, then they couldn't get insurance because Grgich, the, over the lawsuit, sitting there, so then they can't get their film insurance. So, Grgich basically votes himself off the island because he doesn't like his character.
Doug Shafer:
That's funny.
Bo Barrett:
So then, Steven Spurrier, he still doesn't like it because Steven, he was a young, handsome, articulate guy. He was not grumpy old guy at all.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
So, he's not, absolutely nothing like Alan Rickman.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
So, so I had to call him up. I said, Steven, you are the hero of this movie. He goes, but I'm nothing like the Bo Barrett character, the guys a composite, he has nothing to do with me. I was always the hardest working guy and the first one to work, the last one to leave, you know. But then he gets all the girls, so I guess it's a good trade. So, I had to talk Steven into doing it. And, you know he still makes fun of it, which is fine. But anyway, that's what happened. So, then they make the movie, and it was basically how they, you know, everything kind of happens. They had the wine pink, sure it did, but it happened, you know the winter of 74.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
Right after bottling had pinked, and it wasn't like the, in the summer of 76.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
But they, they made things dramatized, so it's Hollywood you know, it's definitely a Hollywood version.
Doug Shafer:
It's fun, though. What it fun? It was fun.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, it was fun. And so, I'm really glad I don't do that for a job.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
It was, you know seeing how slowly moving, how frustrating it is, and how. I mean, ugh, I could never do that job.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, it takes a long time to get something off the ground.
Bo Barrett:
Just to shoot one scene, it's just like insane, it's like I could never do that job. But yeah, it was a gas, we had a lot of fun. And Heidi worked on it more than I did. She was the technical for the tasting and a bunch of stuff. I only did, you know stuff like making sure there were wood bungs in the hammer, you know stuff like that.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Bo Barrett:
You know, so, some of the more modern stuff wasn't in there. But yeah, it was, it was a gas, and it's, it was really good for Napa Valley because I actually think that it helped because it, it did terrible at the box office. It totally tanked, but once it got on the airplanes and the airlines, people started coming back to Napa Valley and you remember your taste room, our taste room, 2010. It was pretty damn dead.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). It was great.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, so when the film came out, people started coming back to Napa. That kind of co-located with us with the vendors and the Napa Valley Visitors Board. Ever since, you know NAPA, we're still here, we're not wiped out, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. No, it was great, it was good for the Valley.
Bo Barrett:
I think we learned a lot after the fire. I think that that experience, the experience from that one after the 2017 fires. How we got the people coming back by November, we had people coming back.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
And I think we learned a lot from that previous, you know, like, as you talked about in wine making. What we learned from what we've done right what we've done wrong, I think that, uh, for all of us to you know have, encourage people to come back. It was a good idea because I do think, I think tourism, you know. Not to go totally off subject, but remember the first winery. Tasting rooms have always been a part of Napa Valley.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Bo Barrett:
And they forget this, the first winery built after prohibition, was Louis Martini, what did they have? A visitor's center.
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Bo Barrett:
And then Robert Mondavi. You know, Mondavi gets the credit with his but it's actually even before that and was like 36, 39, you can ask Mike, I don't know, you know when that started the Martini, but it definitely had a visitor's center.
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Bo Barrett:
And it wasn't controversial at all, and neither was the Robert, but the Robert Mondavi visitor's center was controversial, even then.
Doug Shafer:
I don't remember that. How come?
Bo Barrett:
Because you were, in high, you were in junior high.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Bo Barrett:
That was '66. That's right. You have to like be like me, like me like because halfway to historian. Get, you know where I learned a lot about the Napa Valley history actually when I broke my. I like to talk about that skiing where I hit the tree, when I was 49.
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Bo Barrett:
And I broke my leg and then you know Calistoga's not an AVA and I had been with the Vineyard's Association right after 9/11. I'd gone with the VIntners to Europe and they had the little Vestra map, with all the Calistoga AVA's on there. And they wouldn't put Calistoga on there. Then I was arguing with the Vintners, I said who cares what the government says, everybody know Calistoga's an appellation.
Doug Shafer:
So, that's where, I was going to ask you about that because you're the one spearheaded the AVA to Calistoga?
Bo Barrett:
Right, but we're all busy so, I go with the VIntners to Europe and this is right after 9/11, hardly anybody's traveling. The Berlin Wall had just fallen.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
So, it was pretty, you know, not that far after, the fall of the. You know this was, 9/11. It was, you know a long time ago. So anyway, I got back and they said we need to have a appellation to Calistoga but, you know. Like you, I got, I'm busy, I don't have anything to do. Well, what happened was, I had a really bad injury, I had double tibia plateau fracture and I couldn't put any weight on it and I also was taking some pretty serious painkillers and I'd keep going into work with my crutches and I would be talking to people and you know, the guys who work for me, they're typically super loyal. And I said, you don't sound like you think you sound, you shouldn't be coming in here anymore.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Bo Barrett:
So, so I said, well now what am I going to do to be creative. So basically, I could, uh because my left leg was broken so I could still drive kind of. And, I went down to the library and I wrote the Calistoga AVA Petition while I was recovering from that.
Doug Shafer:
You wrote it?
Bo Barrett:
I really. Yeah, I wrote it myself.
Doug Shafer:
Congratulations, man.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, so I wrote it, and it was really. And I have to thank Rudy, you know Rudy Von Strasser, so what had happened is that Rudy had done the diamond mountain. And so I go over there and it's the same thing [incoherent painkiller-inspired noises] and Rudy says, you don't sound like you think you sound but he goes, you know I still want to be productive, even though, I don't look so good, and I don't sound so hot but I still want to you know get something done, you know. People, like me it's, it's hard to sit still.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
So, I go and see Rudy and he goes, don’t form a committee. Just, he goes, read the law, it says any interested individual. So I read, I read the regulations, it says, any interested party or individual.
Doug Shafer:
You did it by yourself.
Bo Barrett:
I did it by myself, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And then you shared it with everybody and just went for it. But, uh, so talk to me about your kids. Your kids, your kids are all involved in the, well except Seamus, Seamus is the lawyer, but, the other, the girls.
Bo Barrett:
My Seamus, yeah Seamus is a, he's at a federal court in New York, he in the White Planes and the uh, city. He does EEOC work on the other side. So, he represents people that have been treated badly by their employers. So, he's on the other side, but it's also helpful to have those guys. So, he, he's a very passionate guy and he works really hard to help his clients get money out of people that have been very evil.
Doug Shafer:
Good, good, good for him.
Bo Barrett:
So, he's doing great, he's doing terrific. But my younger two, Heidi and I daughters, are both in the wine business. So, our daughter Remi, she's San Francisco based, she does sales and marketing for our family, for Heidi's brand La Sirena and the Barrett & Barrett. So, she does that one, so she does that. And our youngest daughter, Chelsea is in production, and Chelsea's had a long career of working her way up the anchor chain as we say. That's she's you know did internships in Austria, and then down for two hands in Australia, worked from Twelftree.
Doug Shafer:
She worked at two hands with Twelftree? No, no, not Twelftree.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, she worked with Twelftree.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Bo Barrett:
But, uh and so then, she worked in production for 7 years at big winery’s and now she just took over on the Materra for the Cunat family. So, she's one hard worker for that. And uh, she's got two granddaughters living in town, Calistoga, so like last night, I was just over there holding the four month old and -
Doug Shafer:
Nice, congratulations.
Bo Barrett:
Getting drooled on, you know. Getting drooled on, it's like.
Doug Shafer:
You know, I have a daughter named Remi, and I've got a couple grandkids too. So, we're tracking.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I got to ask you one thing, man. What were the best years working with your dad?
Bo Barrett:
The absolute best was probably after the sale, where he let go of the responsibility that he made me, responsible for. I was always responsible, but I never had the authority to make things. So, he had all the authority, and he felt responsible for our mistakes.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
And when he got comfortable with letting it go to the French, then he got comfortable with letting it go to me. And, like when we had the opening of the new cellar. And, you know the on the, the 40th anniversary party of the company. The new cellar had been completed.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
And that was in 2012, we had our 40th anniversary, and you know how winery's when they have a big anniversary, they invite the Napa Valley hoi paloi.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
What my idea was that to invite everybody who had, and he let go enough, so he, we invited everybody who had every contributed to Chateau Montelena in a contributory fashion. So we had, every former employee we could find, every grower, you know. The bunch of Galopis, you know people that we hadn't seen in over 30 years came.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, cool.
Bo Barrett:
He gave a general amnesty, all the people who had been fired for stealing and theft, including somebody that we've mentioned previously.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
So, he had a general amnesty. And so then, seeing the excitement of building a new cellar and the replanting and stuff so that, that was really a, a, really a wonderful time, because you know, he was older, and he and he had let go and he was just letting us tear up the pea patch, because, then he realized when it ended, some of the inmates aren't totally crazy, that like this, the dreamers and the that we work even harder then let loose, and you know that he then. Oh, he loved when I would find, just amazing things like, I'm going to build a new winery and he got it out for a permit. We have this old building right, and he goes, so I go for a permit. Why didn't, uh what about your National Registry of Historic Places? You know, because then when are you going to build something that's a federal project? I said, well that's why we never applied for that, they said, well the rules apply to you. So I went in and I was trying to get the Teflon out and how to escape that and reading all the regulations because remember I was going to be a lawyer so I can read regulations. I find this magic word, tax credit.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Bo Barrett:
If you restore a National Registry of Historical Places building, for its original purpose, it's not a tax deduction, it's a tax credit.
Doug Shafer:
It's a tax credit. Beautiful.
Bo Barrett:
So, that's how I got my dad to give me the money so, you know. He was still tough, that he had to find other ways around it. And then, you know like the seismic retrofit all the construction is exempt from property tax and stuff like that. So, we really had fun working together.
Doug Shafer:
Working together to figure it out.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, working together to figure that out.
Doug Shafer:
How cool.
Bo Barrett:
And he was so proud of that new cellar. He, he really loved it, because of the progress we had made. And so, and he quite enjoyed his notoriety subsequent to the film. He, he, he, he really did. Me on the other hand, I'm kind of embarrassed by the whole thing, but I to tell you the truth, it's kind of it's you know they want your picture take. Okay, that's cool, you know, why do I like my job? It's like, you know, I like being a big cheese.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Bo Barrett:
It's fun. It's why I don't want to quit, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Great. Speaking of the wine you make, where can people get them? Chateau Montelena? Restaurants, stores, website?
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, we focus primarily, we're pretty well distributed, we have a national. We're distributed nationally, internationally. We are in, you can get them from Korea to Norway.
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Bo Barrett:
And, they're definitely at specialty wine shops around the country. As I said, we're not making that much wine. It, it's, you can't, like some of the, definitely not the Costco or the bigger chains, we really don't have enough product to support those guys at the level that we'd like to have a good partnership with.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Bo Barrett:
We have the, you know, Montelena.com or Tasting Room.
Doug Shafer:
Website.
Bo Barrett:
We have a really well-developed club.
Doug Shafer:
They can order online on your website? Great.
Bo Barrett:
Order online. Easy to order online, yeah Montelena.com. No chateau, no wine, just Montelena dot com. Yep. It's easy and the local wine shops all over, and restaurants.
Doug Shafer:
And everybody needs to know that they need to drink Montelena Cabernet because that's the cabernet, Elias and I were trying to emulate 35 years ago, and we're still working on it, so, um.
Bo Barrett:
Well, it's because you're not sexy. But it's a different world. But I like, that you guys like it. I can always tell that it's not from Calistoga, you know what I mean. That's really good.
Doug Shafer:
Well, I, I've told you this story. You don't remember, I hope not, but back when we were trying to figure it out, because we taste other wineries wines, and we taste yours, you know it's like. Oh god, this is good. It's like, I want to make wine like Bo. Yeah, me too. You know, you had really rich, strong, well textured tannins, it's part of your spot. And we're like, we got to get tannins like that. How are we going to do it? So, we pump over, and we pump over, and we press like holy hell just to try to get these tannins, and we couldn't do it. And all of the sudden it was like, maybe these grapes just don't do that.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
They, maybe they do something else, so it's like, all of, that's when the light bulb went off, it's like hey pay attention to the place where your grapes are grown. And, you know, work with that. So, just like you. Focus on what your place does best.
Bo Barrett:
Yeah, exactly, our can be a little bit rough and ready because that's the world we live in. I think it's be too tannic. That's the world I live in and you can't get past it.
Doug Shafer:
I can't get enough.
Bo Barrett:
And, yeah, it's well the modern world is pretty cool because you know, when you get the A pods, and automatic pumpers for the wine. So you can pump over in like 5 minutes. But then, it's one of those things that's like pfft. Turns out just 10 pump overs a day and you're good to go. It's awesome.
Doug Shafer:
Bo, thanks for coming in, it's great to see you.
Bo Barrett:
Thanks Doug, I was really happy to come down and, say hi to all your fans and friends and all. I really think, when we talk about our business, it's like being in the leagues, you know the competitors like you, Dave Ramey, the guys that keep us honest, it's really cool.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, all good. See you, man.
Bo Barrett:
All right.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Hey everybody, welcome back. Doug Shafer here with another episode of The Taste. Uh, we've got a, uh, a wonderful guy in here, who I've known forever. A great wine maker, Dave Ramey. Dave, welcome.
Dave Ramey:
Thank you Doug. Pleasure to be here.
Doug Shafer:
Glad you're here. I've got to tell you something. Years ago, before I met you, I kept hearing about you.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
The first time was from a guy named Park Hafner -
Dave Ramey:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
... who was my, uh, lab partner in Chem 1A at Davis. And then, you know, through the years, I got into the business. I'm working here at Shafer. I- I heard about you from Larry Hyde.
Dave Ramey:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
In Carneros. Chardonnay. Great grower. And you know, it almost, Dave, I got to tell you, it almost became like this thing. It's like who is this guy Dave Ramey? And, he worked at Pet- Petrus- in Petrus in France. And, you know, it- it was almost like you were a mythical wine maker. I think, I mean it's like... you were like a wine whisperer. And then I met you a few years after that. It was like, "Hey, he's a regular guy!"
Dave Ramey:
(laughs) Well, you know, you hang around long enough and, you know, people start to hear about you.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) That's great. So talk to me, man. Where did you- where did you grow up? Where did you start?
Dave Ramey:
Well, um, other than, um, having been born in Seattle, and lived around there for six years, essentially my family relocated to, uh, Sunnyvale, which is now Silicon Valley in 1958.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Dave Ramey:
The same year the Giants came to- to the bay area.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
And, um, I- I went to school from- from third grade through twelfth grade with, uh, Steve Wozniak as a classmate. So, yeah, and Jobs was two years behind us apparently at- at Homestead High.
Doug Shafer:
Apple computer.
Dave Ramey:
Cupertino. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Man.
Dave Ramey:
It was right... so, you know, I was there. And, here we are in the middle of Napa Valley right now and we, you know, we- we work in- in Sonoma County, but, you know when we moved to Sunnyville in 1958 it was- it- it was, uh, in a subdivision plopped down in the middle of the orchards.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
You know, there were cherries, there were apricots, there were prunes. If you went a little towards Santa Clara, there were walnuts. And so I watched... I- as I was growing up in the middle of- I grew up in the middle of Silicone Valley being created and- and paved over and, uh, replacing agriculture with houses.
Doug Shafer:
So you lived there, you know, 'cause, we've all heard that story. Some of the best farm land in the state of California, gets paved over. So you were living there, seeing it happen.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, I think about today, and we were talking about getting projects done in Napa and Sonoma. It's challenging with permitting outside. But what was it like then? Was- was there those challenges or was, like just, go man go?
Dave Ramey:
Well, you know the thing was, all those crops that I just mentioned are commodity crops.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
So, there was no value added proposition, like making wine from wine grapes to allow the farmers to support agriculture. They couldn't- they couldn't hope to compete with housing, and- and why should they? But-
Doug Shafer:
Good point.
Dave Ramey:
... we in Napa and Sonoma, have this value added proposition wine, which allows multi-generation farmers, I think, you know, in Sonoma I work with the Martinelli family-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
... Oritsons, the Dutton, uh, the Sangiacomos. Larry Hyde, you mentioned, in Napa Carneros. That allows these multi-generation farming families to continue farming. And it's- and it's wine and wine grapes, that's the only crop, really... Well marijuana, we'll see what happens-
Doug Shafer:
We'll see what happens there. Right?
Dave Ramey:
-with that, but, you know. And- and so, the commodity crops, there's no- there's no way that- that they could compete with houses.
Doug Shafer:
With houses. Well this reminds me of, years ago, I lived in a- a little place in St. Helena. It was kind of on the west side. It was a subdivision, but it kind of had a little bit of a view over the valley. And I was newly married, had a couple little kids, and my neighbor was a guy named Mike Shooey. You don't know him.
Dave Ramey:
I've- I've- I've heard the name.
Doug Shafer:
Mike Shooey was vineyard manager for Louis Martini Winery-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... forever. And this guy was a farmer. I mean, yeah I'm a cellar rat in boots and all that and jeans, but this guy, you know, he wore the Big Ben shirts.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know, I mean, he was a farmer. And, you know, we-
Dave Ramey:
I have... Remember in addition to the tractor cap, you got to have the plaid polyester short sleeve shirt. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yes. Got to. Got to have the uniform. But you know, a lot of times we'd come home and we'd end up coming home at the same time, 5:30 or 6:00 from work, and we're getting out of our cars or trucks, and, "Hey Mike," "Hey Doug." And a lot of times we'd take a moment just chit-chat, "How's it going? How's the crop looking?" You know, that type of thing. And one time I was looking out over the valley with him, I said, "Man, just beautiful here Mike." And, he goes... and, he said to me, he said, "You know, maybe just maybe." I said, "What?" He goes, "Maybe this place will stay this way." I said, "What are you talking about?" And he told the same story, you just told about Silicon Valley. That's where he grew up-
Dave Ramey:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
... from a farming family.
Dave Ramey:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
And he was just sad about it because some of the best land, got, you know, torn up-
Dave Ramey:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
... or built over. And his point then, this was back in the late '80s, was like maybe this crop is- of grapes, is valuable enough as wine, we can keep this place green.
Dave Ramey:
That's exactly it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Yet... you know it's not a... the danger in Napa and Sonoma is not from subdivisions. We do have green belts, and urban growth boundaries, and AG preserve. But for some reason, at least in Sonoma, and I think probably in Napa too, the county would sometimes subdivide, allow subdividing to smaller parcels on AG zoned land. In- in Sonoma, it's LIA, Land Intensive Agriculture.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Dave Ramey:
But you can go up and down West Side road in- in Russian River Valley outside of Healdsburg, and find six-acre parcels, ten-acres parcels of ag zoned land, and that's what's eating away, nibbling away at agriculture, is essentially McMansions. People retiring to wine country-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... and building, you know, buying a- a parcel, small parcel, that's still zoned ag, and then they build a McMansion. They might even plant two or three acres of vineyard and masquerade as small grape growers.
Doug Shafer:
Small grower.
Dave Ramey:
But, really that's the greatest- that's the greatest threat, is nibbling at true agriculture-
Doug Shafer:
That is the -.
Dave Ramey:
-at production agriculture.
Doug Shafer:
That's Sonoma. Napa, it's gotten really strict here in Napa. I mean, they've paid a lot of attention to zoning, which is great. And, ... but, it's a- it's a struggle.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Ongoing.
Dave Ramey:
I'd like to see as much permitting process for, uh, hillside McMansions, as I would for wineries.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Oh and they've got it here. You know ridge top, ridge line, yeah. I've seen it. But, uh, it's a challenge.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's a battle. So, Silicon Valley, Sunnyvale. Right?
Dave Ramey:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
And, high school, sports, activities?
Dave Ramey:
Homestead High.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
And ... no, I was, uh, I wasn't- I wasn't a joiner, so, um... And then from there- from there probably the- the most perfect and at the same time, the worst college for me was UC Santa Cruz. Now that was 1969 to '73. And so there was a lot of, let's say free thinking going on.
Doug Shafer:
A lot of free thinking.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
sSo high school, went to UC Santa Cruz, '69 -'73.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. Yeah. Which was both, uh, at one, honestly only about forty-five minutes away-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... and on the other hand, a world away, you know. (laughs) It was- it was truly a- a city on the hill, and those were in its idealistic days, before, you know, because Silicon Valley wasn't what it was. Now UC Santa Cruz, functions almost as a, you know a high tech incubator.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Dave Ramey:
Sort of, you know, an alternate Stanford for Silicon Valley. But at the time it was, the originally idea was based on Oxford. So we had these small colleges, Merle, Crowns, Steveson. And I don't- it was never really that successful, but there certainly was a lot of, lets just say free thinking going on.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
What'd you study at Santa Cruz?
Dave Ramey:
I made up my own major. My wife would tell you, I'm an Aquarius, so, um, I'm a- a bit of a free thinker. And so I thought outside the box, and made up my own major. And, I called it American Studies, but it was really American Lit. What I was interested in, um, was the expression of the American character through literature, all the way, and you could take that all the way, from Cotton Mather, you know through, and it finally went, you know, Mark Twain.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
Ernest Hemingway, famously said, all American literature starts with one man. Actually with one book, Huckleberry Finn-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
... by Mark Twain. And ... and then you can carry it on through Edgar Allen Poe. And then- and then- you know in the in the detective genre from, you know, with Dashiell Hammett, um, and Raymond Chandler. And so, yeah. So, I had- I was both- it was both I was interested in the aesthetics of writing, you know. The poles being Hemingway on one side, and... in his terseness, and eliminate, eliminate, eliminate. And William Faulkner on the other, who never met a period that, he didn't want to excise.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
Um...
Doug Shafer:
Faulkner's tough. Oh man, I remember that.
Dave Ramey:
Oh, yeah, it was- it was tough. I don't- I don't think- I don't think he's aged particularly well, actually.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
So.
Doug Shafer:
So. Are- do you- so you- are you still writing?
Dave Ramey:
Ah, it's like pulling teeth.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
I- I could- I- I just-
Doug Shafer:
I'm making a big assumption that you were writing so I'm going to-
Dave Ramey:
I have to say, I can write well, but I don't do it much, um-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Dave Ramey:
... if I do, it's- it's winery related, you know, but...
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Dave Ramey:
And it's- it's perfect. But it- it doesn't- there's not a lot of it. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I'm with you. Brevity, brevity.
Dave Ramey:
I'm happy when... now that my kids have- have joined the business, and Alan- Alan and Clare, are- are- I'm- you know, I'm letting then write a lot of stuff, and that's... I'm- I'm fine with that.
Doug Shafer:
All right. Well great. So you're at Santa Cruz, American Lit, I got to ask it, but what about wine? Was- was- going back to high school and your home was- was wine part of the- the home scene?
Dave Ramey:
No. There was nothing. Nothing from my parents.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
Uh, so for some reason while I was at Santa Cruz, with a couple of friends, we started visiting wineries. We used to... one friend and I used to ride our bikes down to Bargetto Winery in So Cal-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. I remember that.
Dave Ramey:
-and talked. I still remember the tasting room manager was a really nice woman named Patty Ballard. And, uh... actually, eventually after I got out of Davis, Larry Bargetto offered me a job twice, uh, that I didn't take. But, anyway, so... and then we'd come up here, we'd come up and- and- and ride bikes up and down, uh, you know, um, on the trail, and Highway 29, um, you know from St. Helena as far north as Hanns Kornell.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
We'd visit wineries and, um, I was reading wine books, and ... And then, I got out and I- and I- I was a waiter in a Sicilian restaurant in Los Altos for a year. And continued to go on up to San Francisco.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
Exploring North Beach, you know, all the great Italian family-style restaurants, Capp's Corner and Gold Spike, and ...
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Dave Ramey:
And so, I was around wine and food and- and- and beverage and... And then, I really only had... this is a- this- I don't know, this is kind of detailed, personal, but, I only had one goal in- in life at that point. And that was, to support myself for two years in another country in another language.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
I felt it was an accident that I had been born a white male in America. Remember- remember the times, this is, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... UC Santa Cruz, early '70s.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
This- the-
Doug Shafer:
Anti-establishment.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Remember that? Totally. Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
And, um, so I- I- my Span- my- my language was- was Spanish, and so I settled on teaching English in Columbia. And so, I was on my way-
Doug Shafer:
In Colum- in Columbia?
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. Columbia-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
... South America.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
I didn't make it. I got waylaid -
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
... by a family, uh, that I picked up hitchhiking in, uh, Leon Valuarto in Central Mexico. And, I ended up, um, spending, uh, you know, half a year or so with them. Um, but during that period of time-
Doug Shafer:
Wait, wait, I gotta ask. Did you have a job in Columbia? Or, you were just heading there?
Dave Ramey:
Well, you know-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
... it was... I went into Mexico, and came back, and then, it was on the way back again that I got the job offer in Columbia, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
So, I actually went down and back and forth to Leon twice because, the first time on the way down I had a '71 Toyota Hilux Pickup truck with no radio. So it's- it's just, you know, on- on the long drive that day from Mexicali to Hermosillo-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... I- I'm just, it's just me and the Suaro and I'm thinking, "Well, what am I gonna do when I'm done with this?" And, in French you would call it a coup de foudre, a lightning bolt, an inspiration-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
... I was... Well, why not make wine? Makes people happy. It's, uh, not bad for the environment. It's an aesthetic statement.
Doug Shafer:
It just came out of the blue?
Dave Ramey:
It came- yeah. It came-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
I had been visiting wineries, and reading wine books. But, I never thought-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
... about it professionally. And then, so, I'm driving along and, this two-lane highway in northern Mexico. And then, I'm thinking, "No, I can't do that. It's- it's just a... Davis is just for sons and daughters of industry, like Mike Martini."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
I know- you know. Two miles later, you know, the thought, "No, that, wait, that's not true. Uh, It's the University of California. My parents paid taxes for it. Hell, I pay taxes for it." So-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, UC Santa Cruz, you were there? 'Cause you were- you were done with Santa Cruz at this point?
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, I was-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
... graduated-
Doug Shafer:
You'd graduated, okay.
Dave Ramey:
... I had a- had a bachelor of arts-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... in- in- in lit, in American studies. And so, I- I all but... what happened was, I- I ended up staying longer than I thought I would with this family. And they convinced me, "What do you need to go to Columbia?" You know...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
"Come on..." you know... So- so I turned... I came back, drove back to apply to UC Davis. Now, I did not think that you could get a master of science without a bachelor of science. I mean, nobody told me, I didn't know you- you could get, if you had the same pre-reqs-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... that you could have a bachelor of arts and then get a master of science. So, I applied to Davis for a second bachelors, which had- had the lowest priority admittance. So, they s- they- they said, "You can't- you can't come until you get your basic science in place."
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.
Dave Ramey:
Well, see, I'd- now I'd taken this- this decision, I'm gonna- I'm gonna make wine. And, I couldn't... so I... 'cause I learned this, I got... On the same day, almost, I got the job offer from Columbia, and I got the letter from Rosemary Pangborn at UC Davis who was the dean at that point of the Ag and Science College. And said, um, "You can't come until you get the science." So, I'm back driving down into central Mexico-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
... thinking... And, that point, I stayed two weeks. I turned around and I came back. And, two weeks later I was in CHEM 1A and BIO 1, and pre-Calculus, Algebra at- at San Jose State. And-
Doug Shafer:
Really?
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. So, three semesters at San Jose State, all A's-
Doug Shafer:
You just smoked it.
Dave Ramey:
And then, they couldn't keep me out.
Doug Shafer:
You just smoked it.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
That's so cool.
Dave Ramey:
You know, it's funny, 'cause I... the biggest thing is I was afraid of- afraid of science, and... 'Cause I never took science, never liked science, I was-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... a word guy. Uh, and it turned out- turned out, I was really- I was pretty good at it. The only thing I wasn't good at was- was Calculus. That's... but-
Doug Shafer:
Well, join the club. That's a-
Dave Ramey:
That remains a mystery to me.
Doug Shafer:
That's a- that's a big club.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I'm president of it, I can... we've got free membership. So a year and a half, three semesters, you bang it out. And so, you a- apply to Davis to- in the- as a- and for a Masters?
Dave Ramey:
Second, no, still second bachelors.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, it's- oh, jeez.
Dave Ramey:
And I got in, they finally let me in with my three semesters of A's from- from, uh, you know, four classes each- each semester.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
From- from San Jose State. And- and then, my first semester in, I was talking to my student counselor, and she said, "Well, why don't you apply to the masters program?" And, I said, "You could do that?" And she said, "Sure." So I did, and- you know, so I just changed. I mean, it didn't make any difference in terms of the classes. Just meant I had to do a thesis, you know, do a-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... research project.
Doug Shafer:
Do a research thing.
Dave Ramey:
So, yeah. So, three years at Davis. The- the first two years getting... The first year, basically, you know, the- the sort of advanced science, bio-chemistry and stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
And then the- and then the second year, all the wine classes. And then, the third year, couple more and my thesis research.
Doug Shafer:
And your thesis research.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. So...
Doug Shafer:
And so, this time period was when?
Dave Ramey:
At Davis from '76 to '79. And, this was a... I'm sure you're aware, Doug, this was an interesting time, because there were a lot of us, a lot of us, liberal arts re-treds who got out. We had degrees in literature and philosophy and political science and history. And then, we got out, and some of us were waiters for a little while.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
And then, we started thinking, "Well, I can't keep doing this forever. When am- how am I gonna actually make some money?" And- and so, you know, uh, my friend John Kongsgaard was there at the time.
Doug Shafer:
Kongsgaard was there.
Dave Ramey:
Uh, David Graves and Dick Ward.
Doug Shafer:
Graves, Dick Ward.
Dave Ramey:
Saintsbury.
Doug Shafer:
Jack Stuart.
Dave Ramey:
Jack Stuart, Silverado, Cathy Corison.
Doug Shafer:
Corison. Ton-
Dave Ramey:
Paul Hobbs.
Doug Shafer:
Tony Soter.
Dave Ramey:
Tony Soter. Well, Tony was not... Tony was- Tony was dating Cathy, so we-
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Dave Ramey:
... saw him now and then, but, uh, yeah, he wasn't-
Doug Shafer:
Well, I've got a funny story for you. I remember you guys.
Dave Ramey:
Ah!
Doug Shafer:
Because, I was there.
Dave Ramey:
So when were you there?
Doug Shafer:
I was there started in '74.
Dave Ramey:
Oh!
Doug Shafer:
'74 to '78.
Dave Ramey:
Oh, okay.
Doug Shafer:
And I'll tell you why our paths never crossed. Because, I didn't cross with these other guys either. So, I'm there the first couple years doing all the basic science, calculus, all that stuff.
Dave Ramey:
What did you think your major was?
Doug Shafer:
My major was vit.
Dave Ramey:
Oh, it was?
Doug Shafer:
Viticulture and- yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
Because I went into that. And, uh-
Dave Ramey:
Wait, vit or enology? 'Cause, at that time they were different.
Doug Shafer:
It was vit. It was viticulture. It was plant-
Dave Ramey:
You were gonna be-
Doug Shafer:
... plant science, vit.
Dave Ramey:
Plant science.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause, I wanted to be a farmer.
Dave Ramey:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
And then I was, and the enology thing came later. So, I'm doing the basic classes. And, I think the first time I saw you guys, 'cause I- I remember it, vividly-
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... was vit, I don't know if you were in this particular class, it was... was it VIT 1, uh, 121? A and B, Dr. Cook taught it.
Dave Ramey:
Oh-
Doug Shafer:
101, 101A and B. Vit-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... Dr. Cook-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... the crazy guy.
Dave Ramey:
Cook taught the first, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... uh quarter, and Cleaver taught the second quarter.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
116 A and B.
Doug Shafer:
116 A and B, thanks.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, I'm in the back of the class with Brian Delbandio, um, Kim McPhearson from Texas.
Dave Ramey:
Oh, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Bill Ward.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Remember Bill? And you guys are in the front, front row. You're the... I don't know if you were up there, but I remember Cathy Corison. And, you guys were just... you were the red-hots. 'Cause, I was like a sophomore, early junior year. And, it was like, very apparent, you guys were totally focused 'cause you knew what you wanted to do! And, I'm like a sophomore, you know, hanging out, partying, going, "Yeah, I'm kinda doing this," but I'm basically, you know, partying and-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... chasing girls and all that. But... So, we'd sit back there and look at all you red-hots-
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... up there with your hands up, and we would just laugh at you. And, little did I know, it's like, "Wow, I should have paid more attention in that class."
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, we were- we were focused.
Doug Shafer:
Definitely focused.
Dave Ramey:
... you know who save- uh, Dave and Dick established their-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... uh, friendship. And, they were always in the front row-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... and they were, you know... And- and, it, particularly that class, I tell this story sometimes, because Randall Graham... Randall and I went to school together twice, because we were at Santa Cruz at the same time.
Doug Shafer:
Oh (laughs).
Dave Ramey:
And, we only crossed paths once, and didn't really... but then, we showed up at- at- at Davis. And- and so, he was- he was focusing at, initially, not on Rhone stuff, with... and, he deserves-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
... a lot of credit for kind of re- you know, igniting the interest in Rhone varieties-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... here in California. But, at that time it was Pinot Noir. And- and he... and so, he was focusing on- on this limestone soil and he raised his hand once and asked Jim Cook, "Well, so if limestone is important, how about, if you're planting a Pinot Noir vineyard, if, you know, you dig a hole and you put, you know, two pounds of limestone in the hole?"
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
And, um, I mean Cook, just, you could just start to see steam coming out of his ears-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
... it's just... "God damn! Why don't you just dig a hole and throw a $10 bill in it?" (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) He was outspoken.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And totally, oh, he would get thrown out with some of the things he said. He would say-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... oh, just, you know, unbelievable what he'd say. And so, the reason you didn't see me is 'cause middle of Junior year, I realized I really wanted to teach school.
Dave Ramey:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
So, what I did, I had enough credits to get my vit degree, plant science/vit degree. So, instead of taking a lot of the analogy electives, I started taking education classes.
Dave Ramey:
Oh, okay.
Doug Shafer:
And psych, and psych which was... 'cause I was totally-
Dave Ramey:
Well, it's, you end up doing podcasts, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Well-
Dave Ramey:
You're educating the public.
Doug Shafer:
It's full circle.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So, um, so I ended up getting a... you know, still got the pl- the vit degree, but then I stayed an extra year in '79 and got, uh, a teaching credential at Davis.
Dave Ramey:
Oh, okay.
Doug Shafer:
So, that's why I never saw you guys again.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, okay.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
All right. And how long did you teach, and where, and what'd you teach?
Doug Shafer:
I t- uh, I went down, I got a job in junior- in teaching junior high, math and science, in Tucson, Arizona.
Dave Ramey:
Oh, wow!
Doug Shafer:
In 1979. And, I was thinking about this last night, think about you. '79, where'd you go in '79?
Dave Ramey:
'79 I knew I wanted to- to work overseas-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... before... Uh, and, specifically France. Um, and then, Australia was just sort of... because there was a- an extra harvest possibility, but... And so, the question was, you know, Burgundy, Bordeaux, Burgundy, Bordeaux. Because, even at that time, really, it was- it was Char- it wasn't Pinot Noir yet, in '79-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... but, it was Chardonnay, Cabernet. I mean, those were the- the... eve-... not to the extent that they are now, but...
Doug Shafer:
At that time those were the grapes.
Dave Ramey:
That was it. And so, I finally settled on Bordeaux. And then, it turned out... I worked in Merlot land, in Pomerol, not- not in- not in the Medoc, but... There's- there's really no difference other than soil and the variety. You make them the same, so...
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
Uh, you know... so anyway, yeah. So, I worked- I worked, uh... I still... so, I- I- I had this plan, I started taking French. And I asked, um, I- I wrote this letter in my crappy French Two, I had my teacher correct it. And, I asked- I asked Kunkee and Amerine who was emeritus at that point, but he came in for a lecture every year.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
Um, for referrals to French wineries. And, I still remember, I wrote- I wrote 14 letters.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
I got seven responses. Six no's, and one yes. And the one yes was from Christian Moueix. So, I ended up working with, uh... People say, pe- it's- it's an erroneous if people ever say, you know, "Are you work at Chateau Petrus." Nobody, literally nobody works at Chateau Petrus, I mean, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... except, um... They don't let any- you know...
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
And it's- it's different now, it's different, it's sort of a different ownership, but, um... So, you work for Etablishment Jean Pierre Moueix, which, number one, has a very significant, uh, um, negotiant of factory-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... in libor, not on-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... on the quay du priorat. But, at that time, and still, managed or owned, depending, uh, maybe, I don't know, 25, 28, uh, chateau, so-called.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Dave Ramey:
In, mostly Pomerol, but also at that time Canon and Canon-Fransec, and then St. Emillion. So- so I did pump-overs... that first time, 'cause I- I- I worked there twice, in-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
... in '79 and '89. But, in '79 I did pump-overs and I shoveled out tanks, basically, and-
Doug Shafer:
That's what I was - I wanted to ask you that today. But I'm thinking, you know, you're working there, it's like, "Oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh." But, that's part of the myth. The myth of Dave Ramey.
Dave Ramey:
Oh!
Doug Shafer:
And now, it's like, he's doing pump-overs! By hand, right?
Dave Ramey:
By hand.
Doug Shafer:
By hand, I remember those. And, uh, shoveling tanks.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I remember that too.
Dave Ramey:
I can- I can tell you... I don't think I've actually ever shared this-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
... you know... You spend all morning, and then there's a nice mo- there's- this is an aside, Moueix... Crushon runs one of the nice, old, traditional operations-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Dave Ramey:
... where you have two-hour... you have breakfast every morning, two-hour lunch with wine, and then- and then, big- big dinners with lots of wine, okay. And all the- all the workers, all the staff, everybody, eats together.
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Dave Ramey:
But... So, basically, you know, you- you- you- you're working about three, three and a half hours in the morning doing pump-overs, then a two hour lunch, and then three, three and an half hours, you... Like, I was pumping over, initially, I pumped over and then I pumped over at Pomerol, um...
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Dave Ramey:
And, it's- it's really kind of boring, you know, I mean-
Doug Shafer:
It's really boring.
Dave Ramey:
... you just, you know, the... You've got this little piston pump down on the bottom, and- and it's just a little...
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
It's not a powerful stream of wine, you know, you just...
Doug Shafer:
You just-
Dave Ramey:
And you, and... you...
Doug Shafer:
... irrigating the-
Dave Ramey:
I'm-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Honesty, I-... I was reading Tale of Two Cities, in- in the- the kind of Penguin translation, where you had the English on one page and the French on the other? So, I was- I was reading- reading it in both languages. In one hand, my- my left hand, while my right hand was doing the pump-over, 'cause-
Doug Shafer:
You gotta be kidding me. You-
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Terrible. I'm glad you didn't drop the book in the tank, did you? Oh, that's great.
Dave Ramey:
Uh-huh (negative).
Doug Shafer:
That's a good one.
Dave Ramey:
So-
Doug Shafer:
That's a good story.
Dave Ramey:
And then, you know, and then- and then, uh, as the season, you know, it's been about three weeks on the skins, and as-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
... as it moves on, um, you know, then I got transferred to shoveling- shoveling out tanks and... Course, there's no fan.
Doug Shafer:
No fan.
Dave Ramey:
You know, there's no... you know, you get- you get in- get in the tank, about, you- you just... bunch of CO2, you know... (laughs) It's just-
Doug Shafer:
Well, I remember, you know, in the early days, working with Randy Mason over at Lake Spring, shoveling tanks and, you know... During the end of harvest, you know, you go out a couple times and stay out late, I was single. You'd go out and so some drinking the night before.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, sure.
Doug Shafer:
You come in, you'd feel a little green-
Dave Ramey:
Sure.
Doug Shafer:
... the first thing you gotta do is get in one of those tanks, which is-
Dave Ramey:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... alcoholic, and, oh, my God.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You'd say, "Whew!" Those were the days. So, I just want to get on the record. So, 1979, you got... you went to France and I went to Tucson, Arizona. Just want to put-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, there you go.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So... I love it. So, you're there for just a harvest? Or...?
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
I spent... I think I spent four months, um, uh, total. I knew I- I- I scheduled going to, um, Paris for a month before, uh, going to Pomerol, and taking classes at the Alliance Francaise. 'Cause-
Doug Shafer:
How neat.
Dave Ramey:
... once again, I mean, you know, I just knew that when you... once you get on the career merry-go-round, it's very hard to get off. And- and so, I mean, it... I lived in Paris for a month, I mean, you know...
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Dave Ramey:
Who's gonna do... you know. How often... I would never have that chance again in my life.
Doug Shafer:
Chance to do it again.
Dave Ramey:
You know. And then- and then, three months in- in, uh, in Pomerol, you know.
Doug Shafer:
But that's... so, that was your first actual, out of school, first wine job, wine gig.
Dave Ramey:
Well, not exactly. My friend Nick Morton, who also... he and I- he and I were actually roommates together at Santa Cruz in the senior year. So, he was at Santa Cruz, and then Davis also. Lot of of Santa Cruz people. David Graves was Santa Cruz.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
Randall Graham, uh, Dick and Di- uh, Donnie Dyer and Bill Dyer.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, right.
Dave Ramey:
Both were Santa Cruz. Um, and, uh, Fred Peterson was Santa Cruz. He was- he was part of our-
Doug Shafer:
I remember Fred!
Dave Ramey:
... cohort, yeah-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... he was at vineyard, he was my, 116, he was the pruning, uh, T.A. But, um. So- so, Nick Martin finished up his bachelors and got a job as winemaker at Lambert Bridge-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
... in Dry Creek Valley. And, he asked me if I could help part-time during the harvest. So, I scheduled my, I only took, um, one or two classes. I scheduled them so that they were on Monday and Wednesday. And then, I came back, I was doing my lab re- lab analysis and my esters for the research.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
And, so, Wednesday night, I would drive over to Healdsburg, and- and stay at their house, and then, I worked Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And then, Sunday night, I'd drive back to Davis. So, that's where I got my first experience shoveling, for example, Chardonnay- mostly they made Chardonnay.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
And, they didn't have a destemmer, um, so we- we would, um, shovel the... Oh, no. They did- they had- no, they had the destemmer, but no way to get the grapes from the half-ton bins into the stemmer. So, we pitchforked them in. And shoveled and ended up, by the time the bin was half-empty, we were standing in it. So we're just stomping on grapes, you know.
Doug Shafer:
We're just stomping on Chardonnay grapes.
Dave Ramey:
We had no idea what we're doing. And then... then they- then they got de stemmed and pumped, old Moyno pump into a tank for overnight skin contact-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... at about 85 degrees, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Ooh! Ooh!
Dave Ramey:
'Cause, I mean, nobody... so, there was no night picking. People- people weren't a... paying any attention to temperature of the grapes-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
And- and skin contact and-
Doug Shafer:
High -
Dave Ramey:
... extraction. And- and so, and then, the next day, we'd come in, drain that tank, and then, shovel it out like it was red fermentor, back into the Merkel pump, the minestrina, just like a peanut butter pump-
Doug Shafer:
This-
Dave Ramey:
... just grind the snot out of it.
Doug Shafer:
Just- just- just tearing it up.
Dave Ramey:
Just grapes. Put in- put them in-
Doug Shafer:
Just tearing it up, I mean.
Dave Ramey:
You know. And then, move them over to the- at that time, the vaslin, double moving head press that would go up to about seven bar.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, I remember those things with the chains, and all that? Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, this- this was- this was the advance between the... actually, the very gentle but not very efficient basket press.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
So, Vaselin, French company, they'd turn the press on it's side, and put a big screw down the middle in these plates and chains. And it got up to about seven bar, just like, I mean. We just beat this- this- this poor fruit to a pulp. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Seven bars atmosphere, is, compared to today what do we go? Maybe, where do we go?
Dave Ramey:
Maybe one atmosphere.
Doug Shafer:
One- one- one-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. 15-
Doug Shafer:
One and a half, something like that.
Dave Ramey:
15, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I mean, so-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... this was back in the, uh-
Dave Ramey:
Two, two bar, yeah. We get up to two, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Up to two. Yeah. The early days where our equipment, you know, wasn't very gentle, and, we made some rough, hardy- hardy wines-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... didn't we?
Dave Ramey:
That was the- the-... that was an advance over the continuous press, you know, 'cause-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I remember tho- I remember seeing those.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, when we started then, my first real job, it was in Simi, and- and we had both the double... we had the new, uh, Wilmas Tank Presses.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
And then, we had the... which we used for whites, and then we had the- the old Vaselin double-moving head for the reds. And then, there was the continuous press was sitting there-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, interesting.
Dave Ramey:
... but, we didn't use that.
Doug Shafer:
You didn't use it.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, France and then you have a short gig in Australia?
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, I went to- I wanted to, and I asked Roger Bolton's help on this. I wanted the alternate experience of working in a factory. So, he set me up at Lineman's Caredoc Winery. We, would Phil Shaw, my now-friend Phil Shaw, went on for Rosemont, had designed and set up... he was sort of the enfant terrible of Australian wine making at that time. And, yeah, we processed 37,000 tons of grapes that year in that... so...
Doug Shafer:
37,000 tons.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, yeah. It was owned by Philip Morris. And the big product was bag in a box Rhine Riesling. We'd-
Doug Shafer:
Just to- just to let folks know, 37,000 tons, we do about 6 ton- 600 to 800 tons, so
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, so we're- we're we're about the same size, 600 tons, 700 tons, yeah, so. Yeah, so this is- this is major-
Doug Shafer:
This is a lot (laughs).
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's a lot.
Dave Ramey:
So, and- and- and it's, so this big product was major thing they made, back in the box wine Riesling, and funny thing is, it did- didn't have a drop of Riesling in it.
Doug Shafer:
No, no, no, no, no, how did- how do you make Riesling without Riesling grapes?
Dave Ramey:
Well, you could say, "I guess Rhine Riesling was a generic name, like- like- like Hardy Burgundy or something, or-
Doug Shafer:
Got it, true, true.
Dave Ramey:
... you know. So, half of it, 50% was what they call sully or sultana, or Thompson Seedless.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
So, and then the next 30% was carbon shriaz. Now, they- they call Shiraz, Syrah shiraz down there.
Doug Shafer:
Red grape.
Dave Ramey:
And there this old vine Syrah around that they'd pick at a little lower bricks and press out as a- as a white grape. Which left you with pink juice.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Dave Ramey:
And then- and then, decolorized that with 20 pounds per 1,000 gallons carbon-
Doug Shafer:
Carbon.
Dave Ramey:
... activated charcoal.
Doug Shafer:
To take- to- to charcoal.
Dave Ramey:
So- so- so-
Doug Shafer:
To take the color out.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, so now you got-
Doug Shafer:
So it's white wine.
Dave Ramey:
Which, known as really neutral white base. And then- and then, 15% Gordo, Muscat Gordo Blanco-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
.... which we would call Muscat of Alexandria. That provided the little lift-
Doug Shafer:
Little lift that-
Dave Ramey:
... that gave it the- the varietal definition as Riesling.
Doug Shafer:
So you could call it Riesling. (laughs)
Dave Ramey:
And then, 5% miscellaneous whites. Colombard, chardonnay, chenin, you know. So, it was about... my memory is about 11 and a half alcohol, 35 grams residual, three and a half percent -
Doug Shafer:
Pretty sweet, yeah.
Dave Ramey:
And it was, you know, it was a creditable imitation of- of Riesling.
Doug Shafer:
What- were you just... what were- what were you thinking? 'Cause, here you came from, you know, UC Davis and the whole thing. And- and, making fine wine and- and, you know, in Bordeaux. And- and making top-quality, you know, Merlot and Bordeaux. And then, then you're seeing this. What was it like? Were you just like... w-... like, stunned? It was kind of like...
Dave Ramey:
It was the experience that I was looking for.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
You know? So that I would never end up really doing it again. You know? But... um... You know, you only see a in- in- in harvest you only see a... one slice of the- of the whole production cycle, so... you know. Uh- uh, mostly it was a lot of...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
There was a lot of rotovac lees filtration, as I recall.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, wow!
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
How neat.
Dave Ramey:
It was- it was all white. There were some- there were- there were some rotary fermented for reds, and- and that's where I was able with- with Philip to taste a- and see some of the r- results of that. So, three days of, you know, of frequent rotation of Syrah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, my Gosh.
Dave Ramey:
And, the color was huge. And, the tannin was almost non-existent. And then, 12 months later, in the bottle, big squamous gobs of- of anthician just precipitating out because they had no- no tannin to stabilize them.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, wow.
Dave Ramey:
So, that was- that was really interesting.
Doug Shafer:
That's cool.
Dave Ramey:
You know- you do need, you know, you're making red wine-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... you do need some tannin to stabilize that color.
Doug Shafer:
Exactly.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's like Sangiovese. I had that issue with Sangiovese. Interesting. Okay. We need to talk more.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
All right, so, after Australia, you came back to California. What- what... how did that happen?
Dave Ramey:
Well, the story there, really, is that, at that time... and it's not that way now, but, at that time, everybody... every one of the people we've talked about-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... got a full-charge wine maker job right out of the gate. Everybody.
Doug Shafer:
Cathy was in here, Cathy Corison.
Dave Ramey:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And we had- we had the same conversation, and I said, "Yeah-"
Dave Ramey:
She went to Yverdant.
Doug Shafer:
Right. I said-
Dave Ramey:
Right, okay. And, she was-
Doug Shafer:
I made the same comment you're making. But, go first.
Dave Ramey:
I was the only person that- that said, to myself, "Wait a minute, I don't know how to make wine. I don't wanna be a winemaker, I wanna work with somebody who- who does." And, I focused on Zelma Long, who I had heard was leaving Mondavi to go to Simi.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause, she was at Mondavi for years, wasn't she?
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
She was there for... like, long time. Doing some good stuff.
Dave Ramey:
Right, yeah, well... anyways, seven, eight years.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
And, in fact, she had gone to Cornio and asked, they were looking for an experimental, like, enologist to assist Rich Arnold. And so, they- they ended up offering me that- that job. And, I wrote her a letter at Mondavi from Paris with the Chateau Petrus return address on it. Saying-
Doug Shafer:
Nice touch.
Dave Ramey:
... saying "Zelma-"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
... "thanks so much for this job offer, but I'm not interested in experimental, uh, position, I'm interested in a production position. That said, I understand you're gonna be leaving Mondavi to go to Simi, and should you need an assistant wine maker, I'd love to be considered." And, it so worked out.
Doug Shafer:
She offered you the job.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. Well, not im- not immediately, there was a guy named Chris Markell in that position-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
... and then, he left to go to what was to be Piper Sonoma, uh, to make sparkling wine.
Doug Shafer:
Sparkling wine.
Dave Ramey:
And, so that's when it worked out.
Doug Shafer:
Well... 'Cause, Cathy made the comment, she said, you know, "Those days, it was a short ladder to winemaker."
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
She's like, "Boom, compared to-"
Dave Ramey:
That's a good way to-
Doug Shafer:
It's a good way to put it-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... I thought it was great. And, and today, it's not the same.
Dave Ramey:
No.
Doug Shafer:
But, boy, good for you for having that foresight.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You know, it reminds me, when dad wanted me to come over and be wine maker here. All I had was two years at Lake Spring.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And I told him, this was 1983, and I said, "Uh-huh (negative)." He says, "What do you mean?" I said, "I-"... this is a true story. I said, "I know enough to know I don't know how to do this yet."
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. Which is a lot.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And, you know, and I taped... and he talked me into it. He said, "We got Chuck Ortman, consultant, we'll up their time," you know, all this stuff. And, it worked out. But, let me tell you something. I was right.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I was right. And so, we had a lot of... we had some, you know, I walked into some challenging things here and, it was like, under fire. But, boy you know, yo- under f- you- you learn fast, man.
Dave Ramey:
You learn fast. Or you don't.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. But, uh, interesting. Well, good for you. So, you... Zelma, so now you're at Simi.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Over in Sonoma.
Dave Ramey:
Almost five years.
Doug Shafer:
With Zelma Long.
Dave Ramey:
And, uh, yeah, so I- I we- well, m- mostly I... I mean, I started and- and ended in Sonoma. I did spend six years over here in Napa, but... Um, yeah, and, Zelma and I did really good work together, notably on-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... on oxidized juice and white wine. Um, l- lease contact, uh... You know, I still remember, Ed Sbragia, Beringer calling me o- once when- when I was assistant winemaker at Simi and saying, you know, "You don't really s- s-..." 'Cause- 'cause people were just moving, you know, from... I mean, if you- if you worked with Chuck Ortman, you knew the drill.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Chardonnay, you tank ferment it, and then, when it's dry, you rack it off the leaves, you put it in barrels for a short period of time.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
That's it.
Doug Shafer:
That's it.
Dave Ramey:
You know? And, no malo, and, uh, so we- we really were, you know, moving into the- the Burgundian method, which is- which is barrel ferment, malolactic, and- and- and aging on the lees.
Doug Shafer:
Aging on the lees.
Dave Ramey:
And, Ed called me and says, "You don't really need to rack after ferment, do you?" And I- and I said, "No, you don't." He said, "Do you know how much time and labor that saves us?" 'Cause they must say I had 50,000 barrels-
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Of- of- Of barrel fermented Chardonnay. (Laughter)
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah. Yeah, I used to rack Chardonnay a couple few times a year for the - it was terrible.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It was terrible.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I mean uh-
Dave Ramey:
So, so anyway, that worked. They oxidized juice so... And then, and then um, and then, uh Mary Edwards left um Matanzas Creek and I got engaged, to replace her. So Zelma and I worked together for almost five years.
Doug Shafer:
Five years.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And then you moved to Matanzas Creek.
Dave Ramey:
And I moved Matanzas Creek.
Doug Shafer:
Now was that, okay so my memory of Matanzas Creek is their Merlot and it was so hot and so popular, it was so allocated people just couldn't get Matanzas Creek Merlot and if you got a bottle it was like, you know finding a gold bar. So are you the guy that did that?
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, I would, I would say so.
Doug Shafer:
Then-
Dave Ramey:
And- and-
Doug Shafer:
... pat yourself on the back man, because it was, that was the late '80s...
Dave Ramey:
It- it- it was '80- '80- really starting with '85.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Dave Ramey:
'84 I- inherited and doctored, '85, '86, '87 and '88. '87 was a really good vintage. And- and I'll tell you, Doug, the thing was, and, you know, I love uh Roger Bolton, but he came in as a chemical engineer from Australia and said pH is the most important thing. pH, pH, pH! That controls everything, you coul- you could list all these, all these chemical reasons why low pH is advantageous, you have more, more active SO2 -
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
You got, you got more red hue, you've got more color, you got more microbial stability, for various reasons, except taste. And because I had worked in, in Bordeaux, I knew that they never acidified a red wine.
Doug Shafer:
That's where you got it.
Dave Ramey:
Never- yeah!
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Because see, alias and I came onto Davis just like you and it was pH- by the way, low pH means higher acids. So the lower pH-
Dave Ramey:
In general, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... higher acid in general...
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
An- and, but, but it- it makes the wine very safe and secure, but it, taste-wise it just kind of uh...
Dave Ramey:
It can be, it can be kinda lean.
Doug Shafer:
Lean? Lean?
Dave Ramey:
Uh, when you mentioned Sangiovese- (Laughter)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah, same thing, naturally.
Dave Ramey:
So-
Doug Shafer:
Very low pH.
Dave Ramey:
An- and-
Doug Shafer:
But... okay-
Dave Ramey:
People weren't even analyzing the wines, you know, I mean I won't name a name, but one of my colleagues at Davis, uh I- I you know, I- I said "we should be tasting French wine." And he, he said- and you know and analyzing French wine. He said "why?"
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Dave Ramey:
And I said well because, every wine bar in the east coast of the United States is comparing French to California-
Doug Shafer:
True.
Dave Ramey:
... every day of the week. And he said "No, that's apples and oranges". And I just never took that approach. I thought... I always thought if you were gonna go... if you... If you wanted to build a Taj Mahal, you would take your protractor, and ruler, and go to the Taj Mahal and measure it.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
And it- i- it's so easy to actually you know measure alcohol, TA, and pH. Ju- just-
Doug Shafer:
You could've just done... just done the analysis right there.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. And so, so, and what I, what I noticed is even a uh like say the '82 vintage so, and I'm buying those in '84 and '85 and analyzing as great vintage..
Doug Shafer:
Bordeaux.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, Bordeaux's. Uh, and particular Pomerols, and I remember, and I- I taste them eight or ten wines and, and it turned out that there were five that I deemed weak and five that I deemed really delicious.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
Strong. And then so we analyze them and guess what? All the, all the weak ones had pHs, between 3.4 and 3.6. And all the strong ones had pHs between about 3.7, 3.8, 3.9. And, and people didn't know this. That, you know, people were coming from this "Oh I gotta have low pH, I gotta have low pH." But-
Doug Shafer:
It was the... It was the Davis thing, I mean, I'm not, I don't want to knock ‘em ... It was just the, the, the science thing and we were victims of it too because your time period at Matanzas Creek, man I wish I'd knew you, I wish you and I were having lunch every week.
Dave Ramey:
(Laughing)
Doug Shafer:
Cause you would have saved me a lot of time. Our wines in the mid '80s were tart, and acidic, and and lean, and mean-
Dave Ramey:
Bulletproof.
Doug Shafer:
Bulletproof.
Dave Ramey:
They aged forever.
Doug Shafer:
You know, they'd age forever. But...
Dave Ramey:
(Laughter)
Doug Shafer:
... But they weren't necessarily very delicious-
Dave Ramey:
Charming-
Doug Shafer:
... Charming.
Dave Ramey:
... Delicious.
Doug Shafer:
You got that. I'm so, pissed off that you got that before I did.
Dave Ramey:
(Laughter)
Doug Shafer:
Cause it would have saved me about five years. But we finally figured out with Tony Soter’s help.
Dave Ramey:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
And it started kicking in for us around uh, early '90s.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, okay.
Doug Shafer:
And backed off. Cause man we used to, I used to, I can't tell you how much tartaric acid we used to buy and dump in the tanks to get, to acidify the wines.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, yeah. You know-
Doug Shafer:
Aw, man.
Dave Ramey:
Jean-Claude uh, I learned a lot from working with Jean-Claude Debeaune the long time enologist for Moueix, one of the great gentleman of the French uh, wine world. Or of the wine world international um, and he- he said you know uh tannin an- and acid are uh antagonistic and as tannin goes up, you know, the acid must come down. And really, that's, that's cabernet. I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
And then, and then too, if, if, if the tannin comes down on a red wine the acid plays more of a prominent role. Think, think Pinot Noir.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
And then my addition to that is, and if you have both high tannin and high acid that's too bad, you've got Sangiovese. (Laughter)
Doug Shafer:
(Laughter) That's the thing, that's so... that's true. That's why we, we left Sangiovese, and we let the Italians make it now, they can have at it.
Dave Ramey:
Brunello is one of my favorite wines, much of my wife's regret because Carla thinks that, that they're too acidic and too tannic. You know? (Laughing). As far as I'm concerned though, they're really soft compared with, uh Barolo. (Laughing)
Doug Shafer:
Yes, true. Um, boy, this, this, just... I had a great memory cause uh, our first Cab, dad made '78 Cab, he made with the help of a guy. It was a beautiful wine for us, and you know, this is... Your... you just taught all of us a lesson. You know, if you wanna emulate something, you know, analyze it. Take it apart and find out what's, what's, what's what to build out of. And I blew it with the '78 Cab it was gorgeous and I remember reading the records of... Elias and I had been here a few years, mid '80s we were making wine you know the UC Davis way and I remember reading this old... Dad had some old notes on the '78 Cab and it's like... reading a story... said yeah you know, the... It was aged. He had a pH of 3.9 throughout its year and a half in barrel. And then he had some, he said "Oh" this guy who helped him finish the wine before he bottled it, you know, caught that and made an acid adjustment, got it... got, adjusted it. But it- but still it was only down to like 3.7 and that '78 Cab was one of the best wines Shafer’s ever made. And here, Elias and I are, you know, 3.3, and 3.25. And just...
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know hindsight is 20/20. (Laughter) You know?
Dave Ramey:
(Laughter) You're being very honest with your listeners here Doug.
Doug Shafer:
That's okay. They've heard it just about... they've heard almost everything, but not quite.
Dave Ramey:
(Laughing)
Doug Shafer:
But Matanzas Creek... So you were there for five, six... four, five years?
Dave Ramey:
About five years, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. And then, and then you moved on. Oh! He moved on to...
Dave Ramey:
Well Christian, Christian had in mind-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay.
Dave Ramey:
...that we would work together.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
So he asked me back to Pomerol in '89.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
Which was at the time, I mean, warm vintage, good vintage their earliest vintage uh, they stated harvesting in late August which was...
Doug Shafer:
That's early.
Dave Ramey:
... Didn't quite know what to do. And then my fiance then, Carla and now business partner and we'll have our 30th anniversary this October...
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Dave Ramey:
Sh- she came along with me and so I was, this time I wasn't doing pump overs and shoveling out tanks. I was, I was driving around with Jean-Claude or, or you know, taking samples of vineyards, and or, tasting with Jean-Claude and Christian, and she was picking grapes so. You know.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughter)
Dave Ramey:
Which is hard, uh, hard work. So and-
Doug Shafer:
You had her picking grapes and she still married you, good for you.
Dave Ramey:
And, and then, we got married. And we planned to get married in France because-
Doug Shafer:
Oh great.
Dave Ramey:
... we wanted to escape the social complications of having a wedding in, in, California. And we weren't quite sure whether Burgundy or Bordeaux but in the end Christian stepped and hosted our wedding.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Dave Ramey:
And so we were married by, the mayor of Montana Saint-Émilion and then we had a nice champagne, Bollinger Champagne reception of Christian and his then wife Mari-Lou’s house, and then we had uh a, a great big dinner with mostly the uh, uh, staff at a Hotelier Minon in Saint-Émilion.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
Which now has the new, the new owner. But yeah. So it was, yeah it was grand, yeah...
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Dave Ramey:
A grand adventure. And then so as we were leaving he said you know, it's not time to work together yet, find another job and we'll see. So then the job that I ended up taking was Chalk Hill so-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
So then for six years to the day actually, I uh, I helped uh, turn sort of helped turn Chalk Hill around a little bit.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Change the style of wine, quality of wine, and that's when I really started doing road work too, you know, talking to distributors, you know, holding trade lunches-
Doug Shafer:
Doing the business-
Dave Ramey:
... Doing dinners-
Doug Shafer:
... marketing sales. Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
The drill.
Dave Ramey:
You know, it's the old thing, you know, wines easy to make, it's hard to sell.
Doug Shafer:
It's a challenge to sell.
Dave Ramey:
(Laughter)
Doug Shafer:
So tell me about it, cause Chalk Hill, the guy was Fred Furth. I never knew-
Dave Ramey:
Fred Furth.
Doug Shafer:
I never knew much about him, what was his story?
Dave Ramey:
Well uh, an- a trust lawyer.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
Larger and louder than life.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
You know, always liked to have two great Danes around, uh, he was a pilot, um, and he had his own, he kept succession of his own jets but he also had a full time pilot so that, Fred liked to you know, take off and land but then he could do you know, work, on a... An- and this first big case. I think was an asbestos case, and, and was the proceeds of that, that he bought Chalk Hill. So then he hired a property manager and property manager said, why don't we hire... why don't we plant grapes and so he ended up you know-
Doug Shafer:
Just-
Dave Ramey:
He started the first brand was called Dona Maria which didn- wasn't that successful. So then he turned into Chalk Hill. And yeah so... and you know, I continued to evolve there and mostly in terms of moving, uh, this is now '90 through early '96-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
... moving to the native yeast. I came-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
I came back from Bordeaux that second time really wondering why native yeast had worked so, so well in France for all those years and we weren't using it in California. So-
Doug Shafer:
Again, another lesson from France.
Dave Ramey:
So, I started experimenting and within three years I was 100% native yeast or wild yeast, whatever you want to call it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Indig- Indigenous yeast.
Doug Shafer:
Indigenous yeast.
Dave Ramey:
You know.
Doug Shafer:
And Kongsgarrd was doing that up at uh...
Dave Ramey:
He was doing it at Newton too.
Doug Shafer:
... Newton. Right.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, who's the guy... Franciscan... Fred Upton.
Dave Ramey:
Few people... Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Franciscan had uh, you know, Cuvee sauvage, or something.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, so... But I was doing for everything. Uh-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. 50,000 cases of, of uh, of Chardonnay. Barrel fermented Chardonnay, full malo, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Dave Ramey:
So, so that was pretty close to the way we're making Chardonnay now.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Dave Ramey:
With the exception that it was filtered because it was like nine months in barrels. So it came, came out before the next vintage. And then, so, now when we do Chardonnay the villages wines, the Russian River and the Sonoma coast they spend 12 months on uh lees barrel and then come out and spend you know, til after vintage in tank-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... and then get bottled in like January, February. And then the singe vineyards they spend about 20 months on lees, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Oh really?
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
20 months.
Dave Ramey:
So, the La Fleve does that 12-month thing, and then you know 20 months is the old fashioned way. It's like - but uh, yeah big fan of the lees contact, that's really huge.
Doug Shafer:
Well we've grown into that too. Yeah, we do about 10, 12 months and then tank it for a couple months-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and then after that-
Dave Ramey:
Oh, it's a beautiful system because ... the barrels are always, the barrels are always full.
Doug Shafer:
Barrels are always full.
Dave Ramey:
(Laughter)
Doug Shafer:
Keep the barrels full.
Dave Ramey:
It, it, it's optimally ... efficient.
Doug Shafer:
Yes. And it makes really good wine, so there you go.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, Chalk Hill for five or six years-
Dave Ramey:
Six years.
Doug Shafer:
... And then uh-
Dave Ramey:
And then, and then, Dominus then-
Doug Shafer:
The he called.
Dave Ramey:
... Christian, Christian, asked me if I would come over and run Dominus. It was different earlier-
Doug Shafer:
Come over from Sonoma-
Dave Ramey:
From yeah-
Doug Shafer:
... So you were a big S... you were a Sonoma boy forever.
Dave Ramey:
... Chalk Hill, yeah earlier we would look for property to partner on. And making what he referred to as more feminine wine, and probably, you know, Sonoma being lets say on average about nine degrees, ten degrees cooler than, than Napa -
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
... so Merlot which is an earlier ripener, does a little better in cooler areas, here in Napa Valley, Merlot, for example does really well and Carneros, and, and Oak Knoll, and Stags Leap I think, but you know, as you get further up valley it- it's not the optimal.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
Cabernet a late season ripener so it benefits from the extra heat.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Dave Ramey:
So we were gonna do that and then he had some uh, business reversals an- and, decided not do. But he changed gears and asked me if I would come manage Dominus, and so I- I raised some objections, I said you can't afford me. He said no, I'll take care of that-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughter)
Dave Ramey:
I said, you know "But you don't make any white wine" and this was the genesis of Ramey wine cellars Christian-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay.
Dave Ramey:
... said "Well if want to make a little Chardonnay on the side, that's okay.". And so, you know, light bulb went off, and I knew Larry Hyde from Matanzas Creek-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... I bought his Semillon to go into the Sauvignon Blanc and he found me some grapes, and so we started Ramey Wine Cellars, 1996, with 260 cases of Hyde Vineyard Chardonnay.
Doug Shafer:
So that's when it started, so, so-
Dave Ramey:
And the other thing I said was you, you know, but you don't have a winery because they'd always been custom crushing at Rombauer. He said no, you'd be in charge of building that. And so, I was. That was really the biggest thing I did while I was there, was sort of shepard the, the winery construction process.
Doug Shafer:
Cause it's a beauti- that's a beautiful building.
Dave Ramey:
Well it is-
Doug Shafer:
It's, and so this is the Dominus winery which is located in the middle of the vineyard property-
Dave Ramey:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Which was... it's a 100 plus acres.
Dave Ramey:
Something like that, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And it was the originally John Daniels vineyard-
Dave Ramey:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
John Daniels was the guy who started Inglenook-
Dave Ramey:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
... years ago. And, I think the vineyard was called Napanook?
Dave Ramey:
Napanook, yup.
Doug Shafer:
Famous vineyard and it's just uh, its in the out field just north of the town on the on the east side... Sorry, west side of the highway.
Dave Ramey:
Ac- actually jus- just right, right west of it. Straight across the street if you-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Its-
Dave Ramey:
... if you, you know, th- the Northern crossroads. There's two crossroads-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
The north crossroad is just you know, its straight across and you go right into Dominus.
Doug Shafer:
It's a beautiful pocket for Cabernet. Markham's got it great vineyard right, just north of there. And so, that's almost directly across the valley from Shafer and Stags Leap. So that, that's the property you were building the winery, he didn't have white wine... Larry Hyde is a wonderful grower, grape grower in Carneros, we all adore. This guy is a profes- he's a perfectionist at growing grapes-
Dave Ramey:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Doug Shafer:
... and so he gave you some grapes, that was the start of Ramey Cellars.
Dave Ramey:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
And Christian was okay with that? You having your own brand?
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Dave Ramey:
But he didn't want me to make it at, at Dominus. Which was fine because the first year was at Rombauer, anyway.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
So I called my friend John Kongsgaard who had just left Newton-
Doug Shafer:
He left Newton-
Dave Ramey:
... to go to Luna.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
And I said, I, kind of jokingly, I said " So John, you gonna, you gonna make, custom crush my wine for me?" And he said "You bet, that's half of what we're doing."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughter)
Dave Ramey:
So he started his brand, and I started my brand, at the same time 1996, and we were in uh we were both doing Chardonnay, and, you know him - h- h- John from- you know his parents property in Stone Crest-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
And then uh, me from Hyde and uh, yeah. I added Hudson in '97 so then we grew to like 1,000 cases.
Doug Shafer:
You were just down the road here at Luna, you're just two miles south from me-
Dave Ramey:
Yeah, yeah we were at Luna.
Doug Shafer:
...I drive by there all the time I wish I knew you guys were there, I coulda stopped in and drunk beer with you. Gosh.
Dave Ramey:
And then, yeah, so and then, and then, but after a couple years with Christian, uh, I got introduced to Leslie Rudd, and decided to help him turn the Girard Winery into Rudd Estate and that enabled us to move our production from Luna to Rudd.
Doug Shafer:
Oh good.
Dave Ramey:
So it was just other, there were just other lots in the cellars. I mean I was in charge of production, and it was like, well you know, that's Ramey Hyde, that's Ramey Hudson, this is... And then I found, I found like, I found the Bacigalupi grapes for Les to make his own, you know his own Chardonnay And I accessed grapes from Sangiacomo and from, from Dutton and so I kinda got uh, that going.
Doug Shafer:
By the way, all these names that Mr. Ramey is uh, reciting here, these are fantastic growers, great grapes. He knows how to find good grapes.
Dave Ramey:
(Laughter)
Doug Shafer:
So Leslie Rudd bought Girard-
Dave Ramey:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
... from Steve Girard. Steve and Carol, on, that's on the corner of Oakville crossroad and Silverado Trail. And uh, they sold to Leslie Rudd, and he started Rudd Cellars that's the location. And how'd you, how did you meet Leslie? He's a character-
Dave Ramey:
I was having lunch with John and, said you know, "I might be, I might be interested in, moving on." And he said something to his then boss George Vare who's-
Doug Shafer:
I remember George.
Dave Ramey:
... since passed away, George knew about Les, and he knew Steve Girard. And so basically George Vare put Steve Girard and me-
Doug Shafer:
Together.
Dave Ramey:
... together, and then and then, then I went to meet Les, who was, he was renting Nancy Pelosi’s house and I and I walked in for, for dinner and he had some basketball am on. Les was intense, in a secretive way, on the surface pretty casual.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I never knew him well. We lost him about a year, over a ye-, well a couple years ago. But, he's the one that founded Dean and Deluca very successful.
Dave Ramey:
Well, he didn't found it, he bought it from the founders Georgio, Dean, and... Joel, Dean and Georgio Deluca, who I had the pleasure of having dinner with a couple of times in in Manhattan, Yeah and then then you know. Everything has an arc and Les kinda grew Dean and Luca and added outlets Georgetown, Charlotte North Carolina and uh, here in St. Helena, but now, then it, you know. Then he sold a new ownership-
Doug Shafer:
New ownership from -
Dave Ramey:
Now, and now our good friend Gary Fish is, is occupying the St Helena Dean and Deluca. Which is really good because it's a, it's a great physical store, and Gary is a consumate retailer-
Doug Shafer:
He's a wonderful wine guy.
Dave Ramey:
... yeah wonderful wine guy and he's gonna you know take care of all of us.
Doug Shafer:
Well he's, you know its great. Gary from New Jersey coming out to open up a new place. We're all kind of anticipating that. That's so cool. So you're with Girard, no I'm sorry. Rudd for four five years, and then at that point you just kind of, opened up your own shop, or continue. Cause you're, the Ramey brand is growing.
Dave Ramey:
So, yeah we, we grew, it's just amazing. You shouldn’t-couldn't do it today, except with really cheap wine, we went from, we were 260 cases, 1,000, 1,000, 1,650, 75 hundred, 15 and a half thousand, 22 and a half thousand. Now, that happened because-
Doug Shafer:
What were you thinking? (Laughter) That's fast.
Dave Ramey:
See the Girard Chardonnay program had been sort of, you know, Chardonnay and reserve Chardonnay. And I said well we're not gonna do that, cause reserve concepts dead-
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Dave Ramey:
... And we're going to go where the grapes are good. Chardonnay wants cooler climate like Carnero and Russian River, I went back to the Sangiacomos, I went to the Duttons and I created, for Les, The Russian River Chardonnay, and a Carneros Chardonnay.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
And, so then I found the Bacigalupi Chardonnay so, which were some of the grapes that went into the Paris, you know the Montelana-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
Paris tasting Chardonnay, and I told, after, by Spring I said Les, I said I found your topnotch vineyard. And he said "Good, buy it all.".
Doug Shafer:
(Laughter)
Dave Ramey:
So we went from like 20 tons, to 120 tons-
Doug Shafer:
Aw, man.
Dave Ramey:
... between, I wanna say '99 and 2000. And -
Doug Shafer:
But that was a good time, business was good then-
Dave Ramey:
Business was good-
Doug Shafer:
... you're selling wine. Everybody was selling wine.
Dave Ramey:
... but, but, but still the sales manager at the time for Les was afraid of having that much wine to sell. And so I was charged then with selling 45 hundred cases, I think, if the 75 hundred on the bulk market.
Doug Shafer:
Ooh.
Dave Ramey:
And at the time we were living I uh- Carla and I and our kids in Glen Ellen and uh I was sitting out on uh- we had sort of like a tree house in the middle of the Oak trees and I was sitting out on the deck afterwards with a glass of port and I had this idea, I told Carla we should buy that wine, and god bless her, she said yes.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughter)
Dave Ramey:
Cause basically I spend it, she pays for it. And, so I went into Les the next day, I said "Les, I want to buy the, uh, I want to buy the bulk Chardonnay myself, I'll give you, Ill give you a buck a gallon more than whatever you know, market it" The first thing he said was "Fine. Buy the Carneros too."
Dave Ramey:
Because he never wanted to make cheap wine, and you know $35 Chardonnay was cheap wine.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
You know? You want to make $65 Chardonnay.
Doug Shafer:
Right right.
Dave Ramey:
Okay. Um, but this, this next story is good, you know. I- I- I really, I mean, Les was both frustrating, and and and charming all at the same time. But here's an example of something that I learned from him, made it a win win. He said "Fine, but I wanna get my money out of it. I want to get book value, which is more like $24 a gallon-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... Instead of $16 a gallon.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
So you're paying me book value for it, but you don't have to pay me until you sell the wine.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Dave Ramey:
That's win win.
Doug Shafer:
That's win win.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.
Dave Ramey:
So that's how we grew so fast. I took over the Russian River and Carneros Chardonnay programs from ... that I created for Les, because he didn't want to make cheap wine anymore.
Doug Shafer:
He didn't-
Dave Ramey:
You know. So that's, so, so-
Doug Shafer:
... That's how you grew it.
Dave Ramey:
... So we grew. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
How neat. How nice.
Dave Ramey:
Then we started adding other vineyards. We added Ritchie-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
... I, I think in '01. And, then we started adding, we a- we, we started adding Cabernet-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
... In '01. Yeah. So I kept, I kept, I was, I was bullish for f- q- for quite a while. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
W- I know y- well, and, and so you're 30, 40,000 cases, I think. Something like that.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. 30. 35.
Doug Shafer:
And it's mostly Sonoma? Mostly Sonoma fruit?
Dave Ramey:
It-
Doug Shafer:
I think you got - yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... It is. It is. And, and, and increasingly, I ... When we started, uh, our, our Cabernet has been Napa Valley you know-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... From, from '01. But, with the escalation of, uh ... There's two things. I mean, the, the, the success of tourism in Napa Valley-
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Dave Ramey:
... Has caused escalation of Cabernet pricing. And, I'll be honest, I, I came to the conclusion that without a storefront in Napa Valley to compete for the tourist trade, I couldn't compete.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
People don't, you know, and we bought this 75-acre parcel where we, now we got the permit to build a winery, but it's, it's on Westside Road a mile south of Rochioli, across from Russian River, across from, uh ... Excuse me, uh, across from, uh, Williams Selyem.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
And, and so we're starting a Russian River Pinot program, and, and shrinking our Napa footprint and starting to dabble in some Sonoma County Cabernets. So-
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Dave Ramey:
... So there's, I think ... and this is a natural process.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
But it, it takes, it takes a while to-
Doug Shafer:
It takes time.
Dave Ramey:
... Figure things out, I guess.
Doug Shafer:
So you're g- you're going to break ground pretty soon on the, on the winery?
Dave Ramey:
Well, we-
Doug Shafer:
We hope.
Dave Ramey:
... We're, uh, we're (laughs) we're ... It's been an expensive process getting to this point.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
And so now we're trying to put a few more, uh, sheckles in the bank before, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Jumping into that.
Dave Ramey:
... Before launching. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Okay. And, uh, you started a second winery or a side ... What ... The Sidebar Cellars.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. Uh-
Doug Shafer:
Tell me about that.
Dave Ramey:
... Second label.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
It's not a, not a second winery.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
But, but it's a second label that, you know, we have a little fun with. I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
... You know, we ma- we make a Kerner from Lodi, uh, uh, Sauvignon Blanc, you know, an old red field blend, which we now call Vine's End. So, you know, it's, it's, it's small. Um, we'll see. We'll see what happens.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Dave Ramey:
You know, hasn't ... I have to say, I don't think it's set the world on fire, but, there are also 50% more labels now than there were 10 years ago. It's become-
Doug Shafer:
Is it th- is it that much?
Dave Ramey:
... A ver- yeah. A very-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Dave Ramey:
... Complicated market, and at, at the same time in the three tier system, um, there's, you know, consolidation.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
Used to have Southern and Glazer's. Now you've got Southern Glazer's. You know?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
Uh, use to have Republic and National. Then you had RNDC.
Doug Shafer:
The whole thing.
Dave Ramey:
You used to have RNDC, and, and Young's, and now you're going to have RNDC and Young's, you know, and, um, or b- yeah. I think that's what it is. Yeah. It was going to be breakthrough.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I can't, I c- I c- yeah. I can't keep track of it.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. Can't-
Doug Shafer:
But the good news is you've been doing this a while. You make great wines, and people know the Ramey name, so-
Dave Ramey:
... (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... So that's, uh, that's good news.
Dave Ramey:
Well, I'm, I'm ... Thanks. I w- I wouldn't want to be starting now.
Doug Shafer:
No. It'd be tough.
Dave Ramey:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And speaking of Ramey, there's more. Your kids are, your kids are working with you now?
Dave Ramey:
Kids are.
Doug Shafer:
How's that going?
Dave Ramey:
... Alan just turned 27. Claire's going to be 29, here in August. And, she's a little more on the, on the vineyard and wine side. Alan is a little more on the, on the marketing and business side.
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Dave Ramey:
So they can stay out of each other's hair.
Doug Shafer:
Smart.
Dave Ramey:
And, they, they, uh-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
... As far as I know, they get along well. You know? Like each other and enjoy each other's company. So-
Doug Shafer:
That must, that must be fun.
Dave Ramey:
... So it's-
Doug Shafer:
That must be so-
Dave Ramey:
... It's totally fun. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... Yeah. Good.
Dave Ramey:
And I'm, I'm sort of elevating myself more to the, to the chairmanship, and delegating, you know, as much as I can.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I like to delegate. That's one of my favorite things to do.
Dave Ramey:
(laughs) That's-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Dave Ramey:
... At, at a, at a certain point, you know, y- you have, you got to, you got to keep your eye on the big picture, you know?
Doug Shafer:
The big picture. Yeah.
Dave Ramey:
And it takes time.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah. And-
Dave Ramey:
It takes y-
Doug Shafer:
... We need to go out and have lunch and talk about the big picture. That's-
Dave Ramey:
... This is something, yeah, that happens.
Doug Shafer:
... Yeah. (laughs)
Dave Ramey:
Yeah. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So how do people find your wines? What's the best way? If there is.
Dave Ramey:
Well, of course, we love it when they buy direct from us, which would be rameywine.com.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Dave Ramey:
Um, that's singular, not, not plural, and no period, just rameywine, R-A-M-E-Y-W-I-N-E dot com. But as with, as with you, Doug, you know, when you're 35, 40,000, we are broadly distributed.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave Ramey:
We're in all 50 states and 28 foreign countries, and while we may not be in, i- in chain retail, uh, i- in any one town, the, the fine wine retailers-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Dave Ramey:
... You know, likely have our wine. Certainly, certainly the restaurants. We're about 70% on premise.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. It's, I see it. I see it on a lot of, lot of wine lists.
Dave Ramey:
So-
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Dave Ramey:
... We're-
Doug Shafer:
Well, listen, my friend. Thank you for coming in.
Dave Ramey:
... (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
It's great to see you, great to hear your story, and, have a good harvest.
Dave Ramey:
Doug, thanks for inviting me. It's been fun.
Doug Shafer:
All right. Thanks, Dave.