Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Hey everybody, Doug Shafer, another episode of The Taste, welcome back. We've got, uh, a special guest today and who I was thinkin' about her last night, and I was tryin' to think the first time we met, and she has to confirm it for me. But we've got Jamie Araujo with us today. Uh-
Jamie Araujo:
Hello.
Doug Shafer:
... and- and, Jamie, welcome.
Jamie Araujo:
Thank you so much-
Doug Shafer:
And-
Jamie Araujo:
... thanks for havin' me.
Doug Shafer:
You bet. And my recollection was, I know this is gonna sound ... I think it's gonna sound romantic, but I was working.
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
It wa-, it was Paris wasn't it?
Jamie Araujo:
I see. Now I was lookin' back, and I was tryin' to remember, I thought it was Hong Kong or Beijing.
Doug Shafer:
Oh. Uh, you know it, you could have been. Listen, boy, you-
Jamie Araujo:
And I-
Doug Shafer:
... and listen to us sound like we're world travelers. Isn't that cool?
Jamie Araujo:
I know, don't we sound fancy?
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
But-
Jamie Araujo:
But we were both working at the time.
Doug Shafer:
Well- well we were, because I know you've been ... We'll get into your story in a minute, and you've worked all over the world. But, uh, I go on these, uh, jaunts and junkets with the Napa Valley Vintner's Association-
Jamie Araujo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... selling wine, and- and doing tastings in Beijing and Shanghai, and- and, uh, Paris, and Chicago, and Cleveland, and Jacksonville, and everywhere else. But, I- I know, I- I think I was on one with, uh, Annette was with me in, we were in Paris, and I think we met you in, it was a cookbook arth- authors. Was it Dorie Greenspan? Was that-
Jamie Araujo:
Dorie Greenspan, who is-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
... one of the most awesome human beings on the planet by the way-
Doug Shafer:
I thought ... And so for sure, uh-
Jamie Araujo:
... just as an aside.
Doug Shafer:
Good. For, so, for sure that was when we saw each other that day, I remember that. Good!
Jamie Araujo:
Yes, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So anyway, good. So, uh, we're gonna get to your story in a bit, but we've gotta start with your folks, because, uh, you're so intertwined-
Jamie Araujo:
Definitely.
Doug Shafer:
... with those guys. But, Bart and-
Jamie Araujo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... Daphne Araujo started Araujo Estate. I know your dad came fr- from San Francisco. What about your mom, where'd she come from?
Jamie Araujo:
So, um, Daphne was actually, um, she was an army brat, as a matter of fact.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Jamie Araujo:
So, she, um, lived all over the world, including, um, I think D.C., somewhere in the Midwest, um, Turkey for a while. And then, uh, actually, settled over in Hawaii-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Jamie Araujo:
... in Honolulu. And she went to high school out there, um, and then eventually came back to the mainland and met my dad in, down in Santa Barbara when she was working as a landscape architect and he was working as a real estate developer, so, match made in heaven.
Doug Shafer:
There you go, 'cause he was, uh, he went to school at SC, USC and, uh-
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah, he went to SC and then Harvard Business School.
Doug Shafer:
And Harvard Business School, got it. And, so ... And, uh, so they met in Santa Barbara. So, you grew up where, exactly then?
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs) Yes, I guess, is the question to that, uh-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... answer to that question. Um, so I was born in Boston, and then we moved back to California ... and we lived a little bit all over the place. Did settle in Santa Barbara for quite a few years, but then I went off to boarding school when I was 14-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Jamie Araujo:
... um, in Ojai, so still California. And, um, then went to Georgetown, uh, and then just, kind of, kept going, so- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Jamie Araujo:
... into the- the U.K., and France, and everything, whereas my parents actually went from Santa Barbara, in 1990, and moved up to Napa, when-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah-
Jamie Araujo:
... they bought the Eisele Vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
So when they moved up to Napa you were already out of the house and gone, traveling around the world-
Jamie Araujo:
Y-
Doug Shafer:
... and whatnot.
Jamie Araujo:
... yeah- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... I was in college, I was in college.
Doug Shafer:
Got it, at Georgetown. And tell me, tell me about in- in- in, around the house, uh, at home, because this is, I'm always curious about this. Was there wine on the table? Were you folks into wine before they bought the vineyard?
Jamie Araujo:
You know, it's so funny. Not really. I- I mean I do remember the- the proudly displayed bottle of, like, Cakebread Chardonnay at Thanksgiving or something. Um, but we were definitely not a wine family, um, at least, uh, certainly on my dad's side. And I think, you know, they came to it a little bit later, um, in the, more in the 80s.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Jamie Araujo:
And then once they discovered it, it was, like, a long lost love, so it just sped up very fast. (laughs). And, you know, honestly when they moved up to Napa, they were truly ... You know, my dad had sold his home-building business, and they were looking to move back to the Bay area, 'cause dad's from, um, the San Francisco area. And they're not city people, so they wanted to live in the country. And, you know, the 80s, country around San Francisco was Napa- (laughs) So they started looking in Sonoma and Napa and they found a couple of places. Um, funnily enough, Jean Phillips, who most people know as the founder of Screaming Eagle-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Araujo:
... was, um, a real estate agent at the time. She was their estate, uh, real estate agent, and she's the one who found the Eisele Vineyard for them. And, um, it was pretty funny, she'd already found them two properties, which they had bought and were planning to do things, I think, up on Spring Mountain or something?
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Jamie Araujo:
And then she all of a sudden called them up and said, "Uh, yeah. No there's this thing that just came on the market, you guys have to see it." And they're, like, "Um, Jean, (laughs) we don't-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... need another property." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
And, she said, "No- no- no, you gotta see this. This is you guys, I swear." So to humor her they went to see it and then they went, "Well, crud, okay, you're right," and they sold the other two properties and bought the Eisele Vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
Um, so Jean Phillips, who's fantastic, she's a neighbor of mine right now. In fact, I buy grapes from her. So she found this new property, they went for it, and it's, it was the Eisele, the old Eisele property. And I know about it, you know about, but a lot of my folks listenin' might, have heard the name. And-
Jamie Araujo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... maybe, can you give us a little history about the whole property and why it, why it became so famous, and then your folks just, you know, made it even better?
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah! Well, I mean I think the thing that's interesting about it is- is, first of all, I mean we hear the Eisele Vineyard, and I think a lot of people just think of it as a- a weird name for a property- ... um, that doesn't get pronounced how it's spelt and all that, kind of, stuff. But the Eiseles are actually, um, a family, (laughs) um, an amazing family. Barbara and Milt were the ones who bought the property in the 60s, they're the ones who planted it to Cabernet, and, um, they are the ones who started in 1971. Milt just felt like he had something really special there. And it had actually been undervined, but it was planted to, I think if memory serves, like, Zinfandel and Riesling-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Araujo:
... something like that? So they planted it over to Cabernet in '64, I'm pretty sure. And, um, in 1971 Milt had this crazy idea that, um, they should actually do a vineyard designant, that it actually was special enough to be called the Eisele Vineyard on the bottle. And Paul Draper, in 1971, did the Ridge Eisele- ... which is the only time he ever did it, and it is still one of the most extraordinary wines I've ever had the pleasure to taste in my life. And, um, and then, you know, they, kind of, went back and forth for a couple of years. But then in 1974, started working with Joe Phelps. Um, and Joe Phelps did an Eisele, Cabernet from 1974, '74, '75, up until 1991, um-
Doug Shafer:
And I remember that. That was a really great- great wine. That got a great reputation, so, it seems like that was, kind of, happening.
Jamie Araujo:
Amazing.
Doug Shafer:
Got it, okay.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah, no, and that really, sort of, started, um, to create the reputation of- of that vineyard. And then, uh, so my parents bought the property in 1990 ... and, honestly, originally had just thought, "Well, okay, we'll just, you know, we've got some grapes, we'll, sort of, be part of the community, we'll sell the grapes to Phelps, this is easy." But you know my dad, like, that was never gonna happen, right? He- he had to get his hands in there and do it himself. So, they built a winery on the property and, um, started making wine, and- and it's pretty wonderful. I j-, I don't know, I love this story because it just says so many things about the community, and Napa, and whatever. So in 1991, the vintage '91, um, Phelps, Joe Phelps had the contract for the grapes, for all of the grapes for the Eisele Vineyard. It was the last year he was gonna have them, but he had the right to that. And, you know, I mean they had just cut off his supply to one of his most popular and prestigious single vineyard wines, right?
Doug Shafer:
Right- right.
Jamie Araujo:
One could be forgiven for assuming that Joe was, like, "All right, I hate you and I will do everything-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... I (laughs) can to undermine you." And, instead, because our winery got finished a little early, Joe came to my dad and said, "Well, this is silly. Why don't we split the harvest this year? And, so you know I'm not cherry-picking the best spots, 'cause you don't know what they are yet-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... we'll do it row by row.
Doug Shafer:
Oh wow.
Jamie Araujo:
So two rows for you, two rows for me." And, so, 1991 is the only year that there are two Eisele Cabernets, and one's Phelps and one's Araujo.
Doug Shafer:
I didn't-
Jamie Araujo:
That was our very first vintage.
Doug Shafer:
... uh, I didn't know that. How cool. And so-
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... your winery was ... By that time he had built it, 'cause knowing your-
Jamie Araujo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... dad, knowing your dad, man, he- he cranks, so I- (laughs) I'm- I'm not sur-
Jamie Araujo:
Dude, he builds fast.
Doug Shafer:
Uh, yeah, not-
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... surprised it was done early. That usually isn't the case in this business. And, uh-
Jamie Araujo:
I know.
Doug Shafer:
... and I know he had hired on Tony Soter and Mia Klein, right, cause-
Jamie Araujo:
Exactly, yeah-
Doug Shafer:
Uh-
Jamie Araujo:
... first vintage was Tony and- and Mia.
Doug Shafer:
... it's ... Well, 'cause I've got a story for you. You might-
Jamie Araujo:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
... know this, you might not, and it- it's right in the same vein of, uh, you know, all of us in Napa were competitors, but, uh, we're neighbors, and we work together.
Jamie Araujo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
So, the story goes like this. At that time, the late '80s, Tony Soter had been working with us, with Elias and me. And we were just, um, we were ... but workin' together a couple three years, and he was cuttin' us loose, which was fine. And all of a sudden he calls up and says, "Hey, um, uh, you got, you got some time to meet somebody?" I said, "Why?" He goes, "Well it's a new client of mine, this guy Bart and Daphne Araujo." I said, "Well what's up?"
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
He goes, "Well they bought the Eisele place, and- and, you know, your Cabernet is the Eisele clone." I said-
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... "yeah."
Doug Shafer:
So here's the story ... Go back in history, dad first planted Cabernet on our hillside here in 1975, four or five, he had the local guy, John Pina, who was his vineyard manager, and P- Pina had went, and dad said "I want cab," so Pina went- went and got some Cabernet. Pina also farmed for Milt and Barbara Eisele. So he-
Jamie Araujo:
I love it.
Doug Shafer:
... just went up, and he went up and took some cuttings from-
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... from Eisele's vineyard, uh-
Jamie Araujo:
That's so awesome. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... so trust me, and- and planted our first hillside, which turned out to be, to this day, the most wonderful wine we've ever made, Sunspot Vineyard.
Jamie Araujo:
Aw.
Doug Shafer:
And, um, and dad told me the story, it was like, about ... a year later, they're, mom and dad are at some cocktail party, and the Eisele's were there. And Milt comes up and goes, "God damn it, God damn it Shafer," and dad goes, "What?" He goes, "You got my budwood." And dad goes-
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... dad was, like, "What are you talkin' about? I don't even know what you're talking about." He goes, "Well Pina came up and got my, you know, cuttings from my place and put 'em on yours." And dad was, like, "Well, sorry, uh, no big, you know, no harm no foul." And, so-
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... and so, off we go making some, you know, beautiful Cabernet out of this- this- this clone, this Eisele clone. And, so, um, when your folks bought the property, I think there was phylloxera too, but they had to do some replanting. And, so-
Jamie Araujo:
Hm.
Doug Shafer:
... Tony came to me and said, "Hey, um, you know," and so I met your folks, couldn’t have been nicer, your dad, they were sweet as can be. And they say, "Hey, you know, we'd really like to get some of this budwood back because it, kind of, started at (laughs) our place."
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
And then by that time, you know, things were rockin', and, you know, people get, uh, protective of their clones, and they think-
Jamie Araujo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... they're pretty special, and we were, you know, it's our, it's, you know, it's our Hillside Select clone, uh, from the Eisele and all that. But it was, like, "Yeah, of cour-," you know, we have to, you know, so it was great. So your dad was great. You know, we gave him some budwood to get him, you know, some new plantings and, uh, all was well.
Doug Shafer:
And the final chapter of the story is about eight or nine years later, I had to replant Sunspot (laughs) and, uh, and I wanted to get-
Jamie Araujo:
No.
Doug Shafer:
And my, and my budwood would-
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... had gotten a little junky with virus and all that stuff. Uh-
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... so I actually called your dad and said, "Hey, Bart, do you mind if I, kind of, come up and get some clean-
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... budwood?" And he was really cute, 'cause he, kind of, did what I did the first time. He was, like, "Well ..." And I said, "Come on, Bart," and he goes, "Okay-
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... f-, Shafer for you, only because we've got this, kind of, thing." I said, "Cool." So that was, uh-
Jamie Araujo:
Oh-
Doug Shafer:
... that was really fun-
Jamie Araujo:
... that's awesome.
Doug Shafer:
... that's really cool. Yeah, I don't know if you-
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... know that story.
Jamie Araujo:
I don't know that story. And I think it just speaks to the fact that, you know, that we're so entwined in this valley. Um, it's really funny, when people from outside come in and they're, like, "Oh you're competitors." And it's, like, "Well, kinda." But, it's, also, like, "Did you hear this story about my dad? Oh, did you hear the story about your mom," like, dah- dah- dah.
Jamie Araujo:
I was at a dinner, um, back when we thought we were actually gonna be able to host the auction at the valley this year, which, sadly we weren't able to do.
Doug Shafer:
I know.
Jamie Araujo:
Um, w-, I did a dinner down in L.A., with a bunch of people, um, and I hosted it, co-hosted it with Carissa Mondavi, Maya Dalla Valle, and Amanda Harlan, um, and it was hilarious.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
We had the best time. And, again, you know, we hear ... You ... All of a sudden you hear all these stories that, you know, some of them are- are total, uh, like, legends in my family and include members of their families, and they'd never heard them before.
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Jamie Araujo:
So, um, yeah. Well then, I think it speaks to the reasons why we support each other and work with each other, especially when things are tough.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah- yeah. That's- that's fun. That- that would have been a good dinner to be at. I would've enjoyed that one. Um-
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs) It was a great dinner.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
We- we are doing a redo, we've already decided, 'cause we had so much fun. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So, mid-90s, your folks are workin' with Tony Soter and Mia, but they-
Jamie Araujo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... but, uh, but a new winemaker comes on the scene. What ... Tell me that story.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah. So, in 1993, so only two years in, um, they actually brought in this amazing Luxembourg-ish, fabulous, incredible human being names Francoise Peschon. And Francoise started makin' our wine in 1993. Um, Tony left shortly thereafter, and she has literally made all of the wines our family has made through Araujo into Accendo ever since 1993-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Jamie Araujo:
... which is, kind of, amazing, yeah. And she's just ... I mean you know Francoise-
Doug Shafer:
I do.
Jamie Araujo:
... she's, like, the most insanely amazing human being. She's just fabulous, and the most talented wine maker, and ridiculously humble to a fault. Um, she's, kind of, the whole package, and she makes incredible baked goods, which-
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Jamie Araujo:
... is an added bonus.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
Um, but, uh, yeah. So she came on in '93 and then, uh, she brought Nigel Kinsman on in 2010-
Jamie Araujo:
... and the two of them actually followed us over to Accendo, so they're actually making our wines at Accendo now too, which is great. So, it's, sort of-
Doug Shafer:
Oh that's great, keep it goin'.
Jamie Araujo:
... keepin' it all in the family.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah-
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah-
Doug Shafer:
Nice. So gettin' back to you. So your parent turned Napa, they're makin' wine. Um-
Jamie Araujo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... you're in college. I read somewhere that you got a job at Phelps at some point?
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs) Yes-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... my first job in the industry.
Doug Shafer:
Oh wow.
Jamie Araujo:
Um, Joe and Bruce Nyers decided ... I was home for the summer and, um, they created an internship for me that was three days in the cellar, three days in the tasting room for, like, two and a half months or something. And, um, God, I've never worked so hard in my whole life. I have never been so ripped, it was ridiculous-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... from working in the cellar, (laughs) like, 'cause I got to do all the really cruddy jobs that nobody wants to do ... 'cause I was the low person on the totem pole, right? Like, yes, we get to torture the intern, that, sort of, how it works. And, um, like, sulfuring barrels, and cleaning bungs, and, like, just-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... nasty stuff. But, I learned more that summer, quite honestly, then I think I've ever learned in any wine class or course I've ever done in my whole life.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Jamie Araujo:
It was amazing. And people were just so generous, you know? They really, whether it was in the cellar or the tasting room, they really were there because they love what they do, and they really wanted to share that passion. And I was, sort of, like a sponge. I mean I just ... I was soakin' it all up. And, you know, I was in college. And then I had, I had all kinds of things I wanted to do, and I wasn't ready to come back to the family business, which honestly, I think, was the right decision for me because I really believe that I bring more to the table now than I would have if I'd come straight out of college. But, um, yeah. So I went over to the U.K., I did my masters in medieval studies, which is super- super interesting and very- very useless.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
And, um- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
That-
Jamie Araujo:
... um, yeah, um.
Doug Shafer:
... but I got, I'm curious about when did the wine bug hit for you? Was it during that job, or was it before-
Jamie Araujo:
The bug hit-
Doug Shafer:
... once you first started? What do you think? What- what-
Jamie Araujo:
... the bug hit f-, certainly ... I mean the love for the place hit the minute they bought the place.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Jamie Araujo:
I mean, and- and really, Eisele and Napa, generally, it's a place anyone in my family has lived the longest, since I've been alive-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Araujo:
... and it's the place I always came back to, um, whether it was vacation, or holidays, or whatever. Um, so it was, like, the anchor-
Doug Shafer:
Right-
Jamie Araujo:
... right? But I had the anchor, and I needed ... I was still a balloon, I still needed to fly and- and I still knew I could come home whenever I wanted to, but I needed to do my own thing. So, um-
Doug Shafer:
Well and your, and your own thing. I gotta hear this, because, I'm-
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... you know.
Jamie Araujo:
My own thing?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I tell ya, your own thing. Uh, what do you have, four academic degrees, is that it? How many did you take home?
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah. Oh, if I coulda, if I could've stayed in school my whole life I probably would have. Like-
Doug Shafer:
Okay-
Jamie Araujo:
... I love school.
Doug Shafer:
... okay.
Jamie Araujo:
I am a total- total geek-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... completely. I love, I love learning, I love all that, kind of, stuff. But, um, yeah. So I, um ... it was pretty funny. I went, I did my masters, realized that I ... You know, it- it is a fabulous field, but, basically, there are two jobs, there's one in Kalamazoo, one in your York, which was where I was. And, um, you basically go off, you get your PhD for, like, three or four years, and then you have to teach freshmen English, and wait for someone to die, and get, like, slowly every more bitter-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... and- and I just didn't see that as a dynamic career path for me. So anyway, I also had desperately wanted to go to drama school for a long time, and I-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
... never quite had the guts to do it. So I said, "You know what, uh, I'm at this crossroads, I'm 23 years old, like, the ripe old age of 23, and, um, maybe I apply to drama school, and if the universe wants me to go, I'll get in." And, um, I guess the universe wanted me to go, because I got in. So, I went to drama school over in the U.K.-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Jamie Araujo:
... and I was an actress in London for about seven years.
Doug Shafer:
No, wait a minute, time out. I-
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... I, uh-
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs) Time out.
Doug Shafer:
Time out. I didn't-
Jamie Araujo:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
Four academic degrees, acting-
Jamie Araujo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... c- career in London for seven y-
Jamie Araujo:
Yup.
Doug Shafer:
I never knew about the acting thing. Tell me more about that. Was it-
Jamie Araujo:
I know. Well, you know it's f-
Doug Shafer:
... Broadway, what? Not Broadway, sorry.
Jamie Araujo:
No, good Lord no. Um, uh, the West End.
Doug Shafer:
The West End.
Jamie Araujo:
Uh, but no I- I really-
Doug Shafer:
Pardon, I'm on, I'm on the wrong continent.
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs) Exactly, but same- same dif. But, um, I really- really loved new writing. I love working with the, um, and it's, uh, again, it's my- my academic geekdom that really gets excited with the creativity and the process. Working with writers and directors, to, kind of, create something new. And it's so artistically rewarding and so financially not. Um-
Doug Shafer:
Okay, (laughs) hm.
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... so, which is fine. When you're in your 20s, like, that's cool. Like-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
... you can live on beans and a little bit of cheap white bread, that's- that's not-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... a problem. But, um, I also got to the point ... I started having a little more success, which was great. But as I got more success I, it was more evident to me that there were going to be, um, some ethical and physical sacrifices I was going to have to make in order-
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Jamie Araujo:
... to have more success, particularly as a woman in that industry. And I- I just am really grateful that as much as I loved it, and as much as I wanted it, my 29 year old self, or 30 year old self, or whatever I was, uh, had the wherewithal to say, "Hm, you know what, no- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Interesting-
Jamie Araujo:
... not gonna do that-
Doug Shafer:
... interesting.
Jamie Araujo:
... not gonna do that."
Doug Shafer:
Well good for you.
Jamie Araujo:
Well, and the good news is, I also had this other thing, right? So I'd had the academic, I'd had the artistic ... and I was, like, "Uh, you know, thinkin' back to that summer at Phelps, like, wine, kind of, was both of those things at once.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Jamie Araujo:
It had the academic and it had the creative, and artistic, and-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
... maybe this is something I-
Doug Shafer:
Hm.
Jamie Araujo:
... can do." Still wasn't ready to come back to Napa, but I fell into a job completely ... And, again, I- I am a firm believer that the universe puts me where I'm supposed to be. And when it ... When I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, it's easy. Like-
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Jamie Araujo:
... it just ... paths open. And- and I felt into a job at Moet Hennessy. Um, and it's pretty funny, actually, um-
Doug Shafer:
How- how, uh-
Jamie Araujo:
... s- s-
Doug Shafer:
... how'd you, how'd your f-, how'd you fall into that job? I mean, uh-
Jamie Araujo:
Uh, random. I had a two-week temp job, actually, 'cause I was between acting gigs in the PR Department in London. And, uh, I loved it, it was so much fun. I loved the people, I loved the company, I loved the brands, I was having a great time, but there were no jobs available. And then the last day, my Friday, at, whatever, 11:00 a.m., the note, a note went around to everyone in the company saying, "By the way, this person has just resigned. If you know of anyone who can take her place, please go see Sue in HR." So I ran-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... upstairs and was, like, "Hi, Sue-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... you know me. You want to hire me." Um, and it was pretty funny. It was, actually, it was a PA to the, to the managing director. Um, and- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Now you've been employed.
Jamie Araujo:
... I said to her-
Doug Shafer:
That's a ... What a position, you saw everything, didn't you?
Jamie Araujo:
Oh I saw everything.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
I know where all those skeletons are by the way-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Araujo:
... um, but which I, obviously, because I'm a fabulous PA, would never reveal. But it was pretty funny. So I started off as ... He was the managing director of the U.K. And between the time I accepted the job and the time I started the job, which was, like, two weeks, he became the managing director of Europe.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Jamie Araujo:
So, all of a sudden I was being an aide to the managing director of Europe. Six months in they lost the area manager for Austria, so he said, "Can you do this and do your job for me as well, at the same time?" I was, like, "Sure," so I became the area manager for Austria as well. And then, um, I was doing this, um, qualification over in Bordeaux. So I was flying from London to Bordeaux, like, for three days a week- ... every week for nine months or whatever. And when I finished that I, actually, got head-hunted by somebody else in the company. And my boss was really mad, and he was like, "But you know all this stuff we have to do." And was, like, "Yeah, but I don't ... I l- ... You know, you're a great guy, you're a wonderful mentor, but I don't want to be your PA for the rest of my life-
Jamie Araujo:
... sorry." And he said, "Well, uh, write me a job description then. Have it on my desk by tomorrow." (laughs) I was, like-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... "Uh okay." And so I'm frantically in the Eurostar coming back from Paris, like, frantically writing a job description for myself. Um, and I became projects manager, uh, for the whole European team. So I was running all the cross European projects, whether they were in marketing, or supply chain, or IT, or whatever, um, I was, sort of, coordinating them between all the European countries, which was, uh, super-fabulous, like, drinking from the fire hose-
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
... way to learn-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Araujo:
... about the industry.
Doug Shafer:
And how old-
Jamie Araujo:
Um-
Doug Shafer:
... how old are you now at this point?
Jamie Araujo:
So at that-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Araujo:
... point I was 32, 33-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Jamie Araujo:
... and that's when I realized that this was, this industry was for me. Like, this is absolutely what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. And I realize that I was now in competition with people who either, um, had not been actors through their 20s, and had seven years more experience than me-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... or had an MBA.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
So, um, that's when I decided to apply to INSEAD, um, which is a MBA program over in France, uh, and Asia, actually, um, and I got in. So, I went and did my MBA, and then when I came ba-, out, uh, it was so funny. It was 2004, and I really wanted to ... I was, like, wine marketing and wine strategy is, like, such a big ... there's a huge gap in France. Like, there's ... Nobody's doing this, except for Champagne-
Jamie Araujo:
And I think I could really add value and I could be, like, this outsourced resource and ... Um, I underestimated the desire of the French to put everything in a box, like, a pre-designed box that they can check. So, it was pretty funny. I had a couple of great clients that started off with me right away. Um, so I, sort of, opened my own shop, basically.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, you used your own shop. Terra- Terravina.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah, Terravina, yeah-
Doug Shafer:
Right, yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
... exactly.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Jamie Araujo:
Whoa, look at you.
Doug Shafer:
Look at me. (laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
Um- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yes, I didn't know about the acting gig, okay? Come on-
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah, no, that's fine.
Doug Shafer:
... I gotta get somethin'.
Jamie Araujo:
Exactly. Um, yeah, and then one of my, um, you know, about six months in, I get a call from the Napa Valley Vintners, and they said, "Hey, you're doin' this French people, can you do it for us too?" I was, like, "Uh, I guess, sure." And by that time I was actually starting to do a lot of work in Asia, um, and particularly in China. And, uh, and that's, sort of, how I spent ... So I think the first time we met, um, which you probably don't remember, 'cause I was, uh, you know, in the worker bee space.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
But, um-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, come no.
Jamie Araujo:
... I was organizing ... I organized the very first joint Vintner's trip over to China.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Jamie Araujo:
Um-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that was-
Jamie Araujo:
... the first and second I believe.
Doug Shafer:
... yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
So it was, like, 2010, maybe-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Jamie Araujo:
... somethin' like that, '10 or '11.
Doug Shafer:
So, yeah, I was prob- ... I was, yeah, so I was pourin' wine, you walked up and said, "Hi, I'm Jamie Araujo." I said-
Jamie Araujo:
Uh, no. I actually- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
I ... okay.
Doug Shafer:
All right.
Jamie Araujo:
So you were doing a special retrospective of Hillside Select, and we had this special room. I still remember, like, it was all windows on one side and everything, and we were setting it all up for you. And we got to the, like, you know, 20 minutes before showtime, and- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... somebody, I don't remember if it was you or somebody on the team, but looked and went, "There are no spit cups.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Jamie Araujo:
There are no ... What are we gonna do?" And I was, like, "Oh, crud."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
And I was workin' with Cessa Beckett at the time-
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah, Cessa-
Jamie Araujo:
... I'm, like-
Doug Shafer:
... right.
Jamie Araujo:
... "Oh no." And we're, like ... And so we go to the hotel and they're, like, "No, we can't help you." I was, like, "Are you kidding me? Just coffee mugs, I don't care-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah-
Jamie Araujo:
... something."
Doug Shafer:
... yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
"Nope, we can't help you." And, so, Cessa and I-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... literally, like, ran around, and I'm pretty sure it was Beijing and, like, trying desperately. And we ended up finding some kind of plastic cups that worked. But I think they might even had, like, happy birthday on them or something. But, um- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs) Either you, uh-
Jamie Araujo:
... I was so embarrassed.
Doug Shafer:
So no wonder-
Jamie Araujo:
I was so embarrassed.
Doug Shafer:
... you remember that, because you guys had the- the panic attack thing. You know-
Jamie Araujo:
Exactly-
Doug Shafer:
... I ... It was likely some-
Jamie Araujo:
... exactly.
Doug Shafer:
... another- another gig. Oh, uh, funny.
Jamie Araujo:
But you were very gracious and took it all with a, with a grain of salt, which I appreciated enormously at the time-
Doug Shafer:
Well good. Well-
Jamie Araujo:
... so thank-you.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, hey, listen, I, you know, how many times have I messed up, you know, I ... or- or missed something. You know-
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... we all ... You just do the best you can, no worries. Well, well thanks for savin' the day on that one, I appreciate it.
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs) Any time, any time.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, so you were workin' for the Vintners and then-
Jamie Araujo:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
... uh, and some, at some point you ended up workin' with, uh, Araujo Estate, is that, is that the, was that the-
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah-
Doug Shafer:
... next move?
Jamie Araujo:
... yeah. So, um, I started ... Uh, I was, I was, actually, you know, sitting around the table at Thanksgiving or something, I think, and-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... talking about some of my clients. And my dad's, like, "Why are you not doing this for us?"
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs) I said, "Well, 'cause you never asked me." He was, like, "Well, get me a proposal by tomorrow morning." You see a theme in my life here, right? All these guys-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, uh, he-
Jamie Araujo:
... being, like, "Give me a proposal by tomorrow morning." I was, like-
Doug Shafer:
Uh-
Jamie Araujo:
... "Uh, okay." Um-
Doug Shafer:
... wait, you know, he didn't interview ya? Uh, come on. Uh, you know, I was -
Jamie Araujo:
Oh no. Wait, that came later, that came later.
Doug Shafer:
That came- (laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
Um, I was just a consultant at this point, so, um-
Doug Shafer:
Oh I see-
Jamie Araujo:
... yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... I see, I s-
Jamie Araujo:
So I consulted with them for about 18 months, two years, I guess.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Jamie Araujo:
And, um, and then, you know, we, sort of, had some discussions and talked about me coming in-house. And, yeah. No, I had 18 months worth of job interviews-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... with my- my dad and Daphne. No, for real, 18 months. And every single time it was, like, "Okay, well, we're not really sure. We need this from you, we need this." Like, I had to do presentations, I had to do spreadsheets, like, it was crazy.
Doug Shafer:
Wow, they really put you-
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... put it, put it to ya.
Jamie Araujo:
Oh for sure. Well, but this is ... You know, uh, you understand, in a family business-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Araujo:
... you, kind of, have two ways to run it, I guess. You either are, like, "Yup, you're part of the family, you're in the business," or, "You're part of the family, so you have to work five times as hard and show everybody that there's no way that it's, it could be a nepotism, 'cause you're so awesome. It makes total sense to hire you, right?"
Doug Shafer:
Right. No it's- it's- it's tricky. It's, uh-
Jamie Araujo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... it's- it's- it's not ... You know, I think some people look at it and say, "Oh that's- that's easy, that's romantic, boom." It's, like, "No, there's, uh, there's lots of things goin' on." Um-
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... inner- inner ... I mean, uh-
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... I'm- I'm ... Did I, did I just sigh big time, uh, a big sigh there?
Jamie Araujo:
(Laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You know what, we ... I- I tell you what the acid test for me is on- on family business stuff, it's, um- um, what's, what did it look like at the Thanksgiving table?
Jamie Araujo:
Oh my God, that's so funny you say that, 'cause-
Doug Shafer:
Do you know what I'm sayin'?
Jamie Araujo:
... I always say, like-
Doug Shafer:
It's, like,-
Jamie Araujo:
... yeah - you can fight, but you gotta sit with these people at Thanksgiving.
Doug Shafer:
At Thanksgiving. How's that work? I mean, uh, for the rest of your lives, you're going to have Thanksgiving together. And you know, together.
Jamie Araujo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
So, does it really make sense to do A or B in this situation? That's been a, that's been a guiding light for me a lot of times.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah. Uh, absolutely. And I think you're, you're absolutely ri- I 100% agree.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
And, and, uh, but in a way, I think it also makes you dig in a little and maybe look for solutions where otherwise you just like, "You know what? I'm just gonna cut bait. I'm done."
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
"I can't deal with this anymore." Right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
You actually say, "Okay," like you say, h- you know, Thanksgiving is in X number of months. I gotta sit down and figure this out. (laughs) We have to find a compromise and a solution, 'cause this is, this is not going away.
Doug Shafer:
Well, uh, business is great. Um, building a successful business is great. Um, f-
Jamie Araujo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
Family's really important. And, um, you know, at the end of the day, we're, I don't wanna get morbid here, but at the end of the, uh, at the end of the program, you know, you know, who's hanging out? Family or, you know, the people you did business with? So.
Jamie Araujo:
Yup.
Doug Shafer:
Uh, it's, it's easy to say, and I don't always do it right. But, um, you know, if you take a moment and take a walk and think about it, you know, it's, uh, do the right thing.
Jamie Araujo:
No, for sure.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
And by the way, when you meet that person who always does everything right, please let me know.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Jamie Araujo:
'Cause I have, I haven't met them yet.
Doug Shafer:
No, no. No, they, they-
Jamie Araujo:
But, um, but yeah. No, I think family trump, has to trump business.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
Family has to be the most important thing.
Doug Shafer:
You got it.
Jamie Araujo:
And that has to be sort of the guiding light. Now, that doesn't mean you don't, you always agree, or that you won't have certain issues or arguments or conflicts or whatever. But, uh, you know, family has to be the, the guiding light.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
For sure.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah. Totally agree.
Doug Shafer:
And speaking of family business, then all of a sudden, c- so, so you started there at Araujo around when, 2012, 2011?
Jamie Araujo:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
'Cause what happened?
Jamie Araujo:
So-
Doug Shafer:
Something happened.
Jamie Araujo:
... I came on full time.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
I came on full time January 1st, 2013.
Doug Shafer:
And (laughs)-
Jamie Araujo:
Which was awesome.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Jamie Araujo:
I was super excited. Vice President of International Markets. I was, like, taking care of Asia and Europe and looking to expand into South America. And, um, within six months, they sold the company. Now, this was not due to the fact that I came on in January. I just want to make that very clear.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I understand.
Jamie Araujo:
Uh, it was, it was outside my control. But no, you know, I think my parents have always been very clear about the fact that they felt they were stewards of the Eisele Vineyard, not owners. And I think they feel like that about, about Napa generally. I think they feel like they're, they're stewards. They are, you know, coming into the kind of mentorship roles that people like your dad, actually, had with them when they first arrived. And, and so, it's not about, like, what I have, or what I put my name on, or what I can get. But it's about, how do I make this a better place for my kids and my grandkids? And, um, you know, my dad always says, he says, "It was the right buyer, the wrong time." But what are you gonna do when you have an offer like that? Chateau Latour that comes and says, "Actually, this is the only place outside France that we want to purchase."
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Jamie Araujo:
"And we want to do it now." And you know, they farm organically, bio-dynamically. They obviously make one of the most beautiful Cabernets on the planet. Um, they have an incredible winemaking team. They have super deep pockets. It, it, for the property, it would have been to do it a disservice, and it would have been to be selfish to say no. Quite honestly.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, no, I think, I think it was a great move. And I think it was wonderful. It was, you know, I was, it was fast, and it was a surprise to everybody. But at the same time you take a look at and said, "Hey, you know, you know, good on you." It was great.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah, and I think, I think, you know, when you see it from outside sometimes, it was like, "Oh, they just cashed out." And it's like, "No, no, no, no. That's not where it came from." Um, it really was sort of doing what's in the best interest of that property.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Jamie Araujo:
And putting our ego to one side. Um, but it was still painful. I mean, I actually, you know, um, my family actually did a whole, like, photo album book of the little cottage where we had spent all of our summers and everything, 'cause it's like, the most wonderful little cottage on the planet.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Araujo:
And we just adore it. And like, that's where our, my kids came when they were babies. And hung out, and watched the jackrabbits and, you know, ran out and ate several cases worth of grapes, much to my dad's chagrin. Um, in like, August. (laughing) He was like, "Uh, yeah, can you slow your son down there a little? 'Cause I think he's just like, cutting into our margin." But, um, you know, it's a very special piece of property. And, and we still go up and, and I love that place. I mean, I, I absolutely adore it. But in the same way, you know, when the Eiseles sold to us, I still, you know, Francie and Glennie, the, the Eisele daughters, um, Barbara still came to my wedding in France years ago, when she was like, 92 years old.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Jamie Araujo:
And, uh, Fran- Francie and Glennie are good friends, and I see them as often as I can. Sadly with COVID, not as often as I'd like. But, um, you know, we still have that bond, and I think the bond with the property stays with us even though we're not there. And it's allowed us to do something really special as a family, which is to create Accendo. And be, you know, four partners with my brother, myself, Dad and Daphne. Um, and that would not have happened in the same way.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
If we had been employees of, um, it's a, it's a different thing to be a partner with your parent, I think.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, it's, it's-
Jamie Araujo:
I don't know.
Doug Shafer:
It's neat.
Jamie Araujo:
You tell me. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Well, yeah, it's great. But, um, I want to jump in into the next, well, all of yours, next, the next stage here in a second. But before we do that I was thinking about you and, and looking at everything you've done. You know, in France and in this country. I mean, not many people have seen, both have seen the wine business from the French side or the European side, you know, on the inside, and, and, and conversely in, from the American viewpoint. What's it, saying, you've had that. What's it like-
Jamie Araujo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... between, you know, the European folks and the American folks in the wine business? Are they, are they in line, same type of kind of attitude and values and approaches? Or is there a lot of differences? I'm s- curious about that.
Jamie Araujo:
Um, I think there, uh, there are as many things that make us the same as that separate us and make us different. Um, you know, I think obviously our industry out in California is more, uh, Napa more specifically is so much younger than a lot of the places in, in Europe. So, on the one hand that gives us a certain energy and dynamism and, um, a certain freedom. Uh, because we don't have so many rules and regulations in place over hundreds of years. But it also makes us a little less stable, right? And, uh, you know, especially when I think of family businesses, there are families that have been doing this for 20 generations.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
They've kind of, they've gotten the kinks out.
Doug Shafer:
They've figured it out.
Jamie Araujo:
Exactly. Whereas, you know, we're maybe on third generation. And a lot of us haven't managed it very well. You know, there's been a lot of ... Uh, I would hasten to say, though, I do think that for all the, um, family businesses in Napa that have not done well, that have made the headlines and been very splashy, uh, there are 10 to 20 that you've never heard of that are doing great.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
And, I mean, I look at, or I do still love, though ... I don't know how you feel, but it cracks me up that, like, I'm 50, and I'm still at the kids table. Um, which is kind of awesome. I mean, I love it. But, but it's, you know, my generation and, and the generation a little younger than me that's coming in right now, they're, we're everywhere. You know, I was talking about, um, Carissa and Amanda and Maya, but I mean, Shannon Staglin and, um, Alan Viader, and you, and, I mean, I could go on and on and on and on and on.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, no unfortunately, I'm, I'm in the, I'm a, I'm a step, I'm a half a step, you know, ahead of you. So, yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
Well, I still count you. I still count you.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, thank you. Making my day.
Jamie Araujo:
You have an, you have an honorary seat at the kids table if you want it.
Doug Shafer:
Good, works for me. That'd be great.
Jamie Araujo:
It's a fun table, let me tell you.
Doug Shafer:
Well-
Jamie Araujo:
No, no, I mean, I think there are a ton of us. And we're doing really wonderful things. And sort of preparing this next chapter for Napa. Uh, if you'd asked me 10, 15 years ago, I would have said that the biggest challenge facing Napa was the fact that all these next generation people were not going to come back. And that we were going to have all these gorgeous, amazing, fabulous heritage vineyards sold off to god knows who.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
And for whatever reason, we're like little homing pigeons. We all just-
Doug Shafer:
Everybody's coming back.
Jamie Araujo:
The last sort of, yeah, the last five, 10 years, everybody's like – boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. And we really like each other, too, which is bizarre. Right? I don't know, I don't know any other industry. But I don't kn- I don't know any other industry where you're like, "But I actually really enjoy all these people, like, so much. I think they're awesome."
Doug Shafer:
No.
Jamie Araujo:
I would choose to work with them. I would choose to be friends with them.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
Which is such a joy and such a privilege, for real.
Doug Shafer:
Well, it's because we get to do this really cool thing. Uh, you know, we get to grow something and produce something. And then sell it and market it, and this whole, and it's, and we're all in it together. And we, you know, we, we're all v- uh, um, at the mercy of Mother Nature and so, you know, when you're at the store, you know, if you see each other, it's like, "Yeah, it's a hot day. It's a cold day. Yeah, it's raining." I mean, we're all, it all comes down to farming. And that, that's a, that's a bond, I mean, 'cause we're all in th- we're all in this boat and we're all in this boat together.
Doug Shafer:
So, uh, you've got to get along. And, um.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
No, it is good. So.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, with you guys, you have, so, Araujo Estate sells.
Jamie Araujo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
You, I think you helped out with the new owners for a while. Um.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But, but now, but wh- ... Tell, how'd you guys and your folks get to the next step? You know, Wheeler Farms, Accendo, I want, I need to hear all about that.
Jamie Araujo:
Oh, wow.
Doug Shafer:
Because it happened. It's cool. Tell me that story.
Jamie Araujo:
(laughs) Yeah. Well, um, so, Dad jokes that he retired for 24 hours. Um, I think he's being extremely generous. I think it was like 24 seconds. Um, and, and basically, you know, we sold in July of 2013. Araujo Estate, and Accendo was founded in August of 2013. Um, we actually had our first vintage in 2013, and it's a testament, honestly, to the relationships that my parents have created over 30 years in this Valley. Um, that, you know, they put the call out and said, "We've decided we're going to do something new with our kids. And we need some grapes. You got anything going?" Like, right before harvest to some of the most iconic vineyards in the Valley. It's completely insane.
Jamie Araujo:
Um, but the idea was that, you know, we'd been, um, we'd had the, the great privilege and good fortune to drink some of the older, uh, Napa wines. Sort of '50s, '60s, '70s. Um, mostly at Press, uh, honestly. The restaurant here in St. Helena.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Araujo:
That has the, had ... I actually think we've drunk most of their reserve list. But, um, they had, you know, this just incredible reserve list. And we were drinking these wines, and we're like, "Uh, excuse me, can you please explain to me why these wines are fresh and elegant and stunning, and we thought they'd be over the hill and they're just not?" And so, we started doing a little research. And found that actually, a lot of them were not single vineyard. A lot of them were mix, uh, a mix of several different vineyards, mostly on the sort of western, what we call the Benchland.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
Which for those who haven't been to Napa or don't know it, um, is sort of not the hillside, not the valley floor, but in the middle. Um, the, the gold, I always call it the Goldilocks Coast. Right?
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Jamie Araujo:
It's like, not too big, it's not too small. Um, and it, oh, really, oh, sort of Rutherford, Oakville, Yountville, sort of heart of the Napa Valley. And so, um, then we started looking. We're like, "Hang on, but we know all those people. They're really cool. They're good friends of ours we could talk to them, and maybe we could do that and." And it sort of, one thing led to another. Um, and it's pretty ironic, you know. I mentioned before, like, my dad can't do anything by halves, like, he just can't. And, you know, it, we all have known him for a very long time. Some of us, all of our lives. And we should know this by now. And he was like, "I just want to make, like, 50 cases."
Doug Shafer:
No, no, no, no, no.
Jamie Araujo:
And Daphne was li- ... Daphne's like, "Okay."
Doug Shafer:
No, he didn't say that. I know Bart, there's no way.
Jamie Araujo:
50 cases.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, okay.
Jamie Araujo:
Exactly, right? And then he's like, "Okay, well, 50 cases of each wine." And then this and that and that. And then, you know, they were looking, actually, 'cause one of the things, they sold their house when they sold the, the Eisele Vineyard as well.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Jamie Araujo:
'Cause they lived on the property. So, they were looking for a new home. And the (laughs), on the, bizarrely, on the residential listings, they find this 10-acre property in the center of Napa Valley, just south of St. Helena, with a fully grandfathered permit for a 50 thousand gallon winery. Um, and you know, I mean, red rag to a bull, my dad's like, "Uh, yeah. I could do that."
Jamie Araujo:
So, Wheeler Farms was born, basically.
Doug Shafer:
And-
Jamie Araujo:
Um, and the reason it's called Wheeler Farms is it's the last 10 acres of what was the Wheeler Farms, which was a two thousand acre property, kind of that was most of the center of Napa Valley, when it was originally founded.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Jamie Araujo:
And got sold off bit by bit over generations. Um, and again, you know, and this whole idea that, like, it doesn't have to have our name on it. Like, our ego is good.
Doug Shafer:
Sure, yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
Like, my, you know, my parents have ... They have very little to prove, although it doesn't stop them from wanting to prove to themselves every single day that they're doing better than they did yesterday. But yeah. We felt it was more important to honor the heritage of the property rather than our family.
Doug Shafer:
Well, it's beautiful. It's, it's right there on Zinfandel Lane.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I watched ... That's the road I, I drive that road every day coming to work. And, uh, I watched that thing go up. It's an absolute beautiful facility. And, uh.
Jamie Araujo:
Oh, thank you.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, it's, it's, I mean, it, it just fits. It's not, it's just gorgeous. So.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But I'm not surprised, knowing you guys and the Araujo family. You know, that's, you guys do things, everything first class. So, so, but it's, it's , is it, is it ... So, is, there's a Wheeler Farms label, correct?
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Jamie Araujo:
So, basically, 50 thousand gallons was way bigger than anything that we needed at Accendo.
Jamie Araujo:
But you know, along that kind of, um, community and mentorship spirit, we said, "Well, wouldn't it be kind of cool to open our doors to a few select people who we think are making some really great wines, but don't happen to have a home for their project?" And sort of have, you know, like, uh, an estate winery, but also kind of like a cooperative ... Uh, not a cooperative. Like a, uh, what's the word I'm looking for?
Doug Shafer:
Well, uh, custom crush, right? Is that basically-
Jamie Araujo:
Well, but it's more than custom crush, right?
Doug Shafer:
Is it more than that?
Jamie Araujo:
Because it's, it's not just the wine making side. We also have the hospitality side.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, I see. Okay.
Jamie Araujo:
And I think it's also about exchange. I think it's, it's sort of like, not an incubator per se, but it's, it's really wonderful to have, you know, these three or four or five winemakers now, um, who are able to talk to each other and learn from each other. And, and, and not be in a vacuum, in their own space kind of going . Um, and, and to really have an exchange of ideas and, and wine, too. Right? I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Araujo:
... we always say, in our family, that we have to guard against a house palate. Now, that may just be an excuse for drinking too much. But, um, we, uh, no. We always, we do comparative tastings all the time. We really think it's important. Uh, and so, having all these other wines around, and then we decided to make some wine under the JH Wheeler name. Again, sort of as, uh, an homage to that family and to this property.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. But Acce- but Accendo. What's Accendo mean? help me.
Jamie Araujo:
So, Accendo, the, the name of the w- ... The name of this project, I swear to god, was literally the hardest thing of the whole. I mean, b- ... You would think, like, getting the grapes, making the wine, building Wheeler Farms. Nope. Nothing was as frustrating and difficult as getting the name.
Doug Shafer:
Well, you've got four people, four really strong willed people have got to agree, right?
Jamie Araujo:
No, in fact, it wasn't even that.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Jamie Araujo:
We agreed on all kinds of things. But, like, we even made up a name and went to the lawyers. And they're like, "Nope, nope. There's, like, a brewery in Wisconsin that has that name." We're like, "We literally just made that up. That's not possible." Anyway.
Jamie Araujo:
So, um, we tried and tried and tried-
Doug Shafer:
By the, by the way, the-
Jamie Araujo:
Everything was taken.
Doug Shafer:
The breweries, it's the brew- it's the microbreweries that have all the good names.
Jamie Araujo:
They do.
Doug Shafer:
That's been, that's been my experience. 'Cause 20 years ago, Jamie, I could, I could cook up a name and, you know, it was pretty good. And the la- ... I've had a couple go arounds in the last eight or 10 years, and it's like, all these brewpubs are killing me, man. They've got everything. I mean, I mean.
Jamie Araujo:
It's totally true.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, oh well. Um.
Jamie Araujo:
I love it.
Doug Shafer:
I was, I was-
Jamie Araujo:
I love it.
Doug Shafer:
Oh. But I'll tell you those stories later. But anyway.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Carry on with Accendo.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah, no. So, um, so, it was actually our operations manager who went home with a bunch of dictionaries one weekend and came back on Monday and said, "You guys, I think I found something." And she said, you know, "It's c- it's Accendo. It's a Latin verb. It means to illuminate, to inspire, to, um, arouse and excite." And it, you know, and I said, "And it starts with an A and ends with an O, and nobody can pronounce it and nobody can spell it. Wow, sounds familiar." Um.
Doug Shafer:
Ha.
Jamie Araujo:
So, yeah, we went from Araujo to Accendo. Uh, but it does have a very specific meaning to us. Um, for sure. We think of it as a way to remind ourselves that, you know, like you said, the, we're all in this together. And it's important to inspire each other to try and, you know, light up the dark times. And, and hopefully to get people excited about the wines we're making and what we're doing in this Valley.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
So, there you go.
Doug Shafer:
And, and you guys, family business, I know what it's like. Um, in your opinion, you know, when it works well, what, what makes it work well? What helps the, what makes it succeed? What do you think?
Jamie Araujo:
Um, you know, it's interesting. When I did my MBA, um, and at the time I had no concept that I would ever work in the family business. Um, but I took a family firms course. And I remember them saying that family business, when it works well, is literally, like, the most efficient and, um, the businesses that make the highest profit. And they are just, they literally, they just run well. And when they don't work well, they are literally the worst. Like, they are the worst kinds of businesses on the planet. Um, so, so I think there's a big, um, responsibility there on all family members.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Araujo:
To, um, to do what they can to, to do it right. And I think, for us anyway, um, we have found ... And, you know, it's been a, it's, it's been a really interesting journey because we've had the double whammy of working together as a family and starting a whole new business. Right?
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Jamie Araujo:
At the same time, which is crazy. I, I, you know, when I look back on it, I'm like, "What were we thinking?" But I'm glad we did. But holy moly. Anyway. So I think for us, communication has been, if I had to choose one thing, communication is the most essential thing. Um, and you know, we have weekly meetings, the four of us. And we, you know, do our best to make sure everybody's copied on everything.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
So, we have very large inboxes. But it really, it's so, so important. Because, um, uh, I think the biggest trip up or pitfall that you can have with family business is assuming that you know what the other person's thinking because you know them so well, because they're your family. And assuming you guys have the same vision or viewpoint on something, when you have no idea. Just because you know that yeah, they're definitely gonna want this on the Thanksgiving table for dinner, going back to Thanksgiving. You can tell it's a very seasonal podcast.
Doug Shafer:
It is.
Jamie Araujo:
Um, (laughing) ... But, no, you know, just because you know what on the table for Thanksgiving does not mean that you know exactly how they feel about the cashflow projections for next year.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
Or whatever it is.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
Or this decision to bring on another vineyard or to make an investment or to go travel to a market. You really have to be very explicit. And it's, it feels a little unnatural sometimes, because you know, you're, you're explaining things that sound so obvious. But I think it really is, um, for us, anyway, has been an amazing way to avoid pitfalls, um, is to be extremely open with communication. For sure.
Doug Shafer:
I, yeah, I would definitely agree. I remember, um, and not just, just the straight business communication. I mean, I had so many times with my dad, it would be, um, oh, casual conversations.
Jamie Araujo:
Hm.
Doug Shafer:
You know, we're, we're in the, you know, we're, I, running him in the k- ... Run into each other in the kitchen and getting a cup of coffee. And it's like, you know, "Hey, you know, um, did you see the game yesterday?" "Yeah,". "Did you notice what was going on, you know, on the sidelines or that ad or," you know, all of a, which all of a sudden it kind of works into a kind of marketing idea for the winery. I mean, it's crazy. I mean, it was stuff like that-
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... going on. And it was just kind of, um, I miss him a lot because, um, it's just those, uh, those casual exchanges. And, um, would, uh, would be the seeds, oftentimes, a seed to new ideas, which was really, was really cool. Really cool.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah. Well, and he was such an extraordinary man, too. We all adored him.
Doug Shafer:
Well, he was a-
Jamie Araujo:
So much.
Doug Shafer:
He was, he was a tiger. (laughing) Reminds, minds me, reminds me of your father.
Jamie Araujo:
No, for sure. I think you and I have a lot in common.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. We (laughing) ... So, with the new operation, what, I'm, I'm assuming you're doing the marketing and sales. Is that correct, or what, what are you involved with?
Jamie Araujo:
Um, you know, it's interesting. The way we've sort of worked it is, I mean, everybody has certain things that they're in charge of. So, I'm, you know, I am sort of spearheading the social media, mainly 'cause nobody else wants to. Let's be fair. But, um, you know, and things, you know, the marketing ideas and things like that, I do y- have my sort of two cents, because obviously that's what I was doing professionally for a long time. Um, but we all, you know, I'm working with my dad on the five-year plan right now. So, we're working with budgets and numbers. And, um, my brother's really involved up at Wheeler Farms, so he's looking at our hospitality program and, and how we do visits and all that kind of stuff.
Jamie Araujo:
And so, uh, I think this is, again, we're trying to stay tight as a team and make sure that whatever squeaky wheel gets whatever grease we have. So, we, we haven't really divided it up by functional area per se. Um, it's more sort of like, "All right, can you take this? Can you c- ... Have you got, how much have you got on your plate right now? How about if you take this?" And it's, it's, I love it, because it actually allows me to work in tons of different areas, which is what I really enjoy.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
Rather than being sort of siloed. And I think it's, you know, that's where I personally find that you get innovation and creativity. Right?
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Araujo:
I always try and go to at least one seminar or trade show or something that has nothing to do with wine every year. Something in a completely different category, because sometimes that's where all of a sudden, it's like, "Holy mo- ... What? Hang on, we can totally do this."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
Like, why aren't we doing this?
Doug Shafer:
That's a great idea.
Jamie Araujo:
Because we actually can get very, our vision can get very narrow, because yeah. And I think it comes from being an agricultural project and pr- product, rather. Sorry.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Araujo:
Um, to your point about Europe, I think for a long time it was a huge issue for them. Um, because they were kind of s- ... They didn't just have their feet on the ground. They were stuck in the dirt. And they kind of could see nothing outside their own property. Um, ironically, I think things have switched. I think Napa has a little more of that problem at the moment. Um, and like, Bordeaux and Burgundy have these new generations that have done their, you know, they didn't just go to Davis and come back to Napa. Right? They've gone to Australia, they've gone to New Zealand. They've gone to Argentina. They've come to Napa. And, um, have then come back to Burgundy, Bordeaux. Um, Italy, wherever.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
And they have this vision that is much wider.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Araujo:
So, I think that's gonna be a big challenge for us in Napa moving forward, is to avoid ... Espe- and you know, it's hard for us, because we could totally sell everything Napa makes in the United States and be done with it. Right? We don't need, in quotation marks, um, international markets. Except we do.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, we definitely, we definitely do for the brand. We have to.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's, uh.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah, and also just, I think in terms of our culture and our, our, the way we see the world, I think it's so important to open your mind to the fact that, that we're just not alone.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
We feel very isolated in the U.S. 'cause we're enormous and we have oceans on two sides. Um, despite the fact we do have neighbors to the north and south. Um, but, uh, we really are not, and, and I think in a, in the global world that we live in today, whether it's the economy or the climate or whatever, we need those relationships. As much as, as they need us. So, I think, um, you know, on, in our little tiny microcosm of, of the universe, I think it's super important for Napa to be present, um, and thriving in international markets, too.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Totally agree. So, help me on the, Accendo, are you guys just making cabernet? Or what varietals?
Jamie Araujo:
Nope, so, we're making cabernet and sauvignon blanc.
Doug Shafer:
Got it, okay.
Jamie Araujo:
'Cause that's kind of our wheelhouse.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Jamie Araujo:
And this next year, so the 2018 vintage which is going to be released next year, 2021, um, we do have a second wine as well. So, at Araujo, we had the Altagracia. Which was our, our second wine, and it wasn't ... I mean, I think a lot of people think, like, with the second wine, that it's like, "All right, whatever didn't go into Accendo, dump it in a bucket and that'll be the second wine." And that's not how we do business. So, what we do is we make our first cut for the first wine. Um, which is the most excellent wine we can possibly make. And then with everything that's leftover, we start the exercise all over again. And we taste everything again, and we start blending again. And we make the absolute best wine we can make. So, it's the absolute best of whatever didn't go into Accendo. But, um, it often has some components that are in Accendo. It's usually, um, uh, it's also, we try and make something that's maybe a little more approachable, a little younger. A little more on the red fruits rather than the black fruits. A little fresher, I mean, even though our whole style is about being fresh and balanced and elegant. Even the first wine. But, um, the second wine, so, it's actually going to be called Laurea, which is the, um, Latin version of the laurel. Um, and the Greek version of the laurel is ... Does anyone know?
Doug Shafer:
No.
Jamie Araujo:
Daphne.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, Daphne. Mom's name. Cool.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, good.
Jamie Araujo:
Exactly.
Doug Shafer:
So, d- do me a favor-
Jamie Araujo:
So, Laurea is sort of named after her.
Doug Shafer:
Good. And t- tell me the name again, 'cause I missed it.
Jamie Araujo:
Laurea.
Doug Shafer:
Laurea. Beautiful.
Jamie Araujo:
L-A-U-R-E-A. Yeah, it's really pretty.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, and then-
Jamie Araujo:
Um, and the wine is really pretty, too.
Doug Shafer:
There's something else. You know, not that you're not busy enough, but you started something, you, what, you're doing your own, your own label. Right? On top of this. What's-
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Tell me about that.
Jamie Araujo:
I don't know.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
Why not? So, um, no. I started, um, honestly, uh, it's a project called Trois Noix. Um, and it's sort of my little passion project. Uh, and yeah, really kind of started off as a way to use up, um, some of the lots that Accendo just had no use for. And has morphed into this whole thing now. Uh, which is pretty wonderful. So.
Doug Shafer:
Cool.
Jamie Araujo:
My whole goal with it was to, to use wine as, um, a vector for change. And, um, positive force in the community. And so, um, just hired a new GM this year, and, um, a fabulous, uh, e-commerce person. Um, amazing new consulting winemaker. And, um, yeah, we're working with some great little vineyards and, and doing a couple of fun things. So, it's been, it's been an exciting ride this year. 2020, I was telling somebody, like, "2020 is bipolar." Right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
It's either the highest high or the lowest low.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
There's like, nothing in the middle. So, and I've had a lot of both. So, thankfully, you know, I've had a lot of high highs, which is nice.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Jamie Araujo:
I'm gonna focus on those.
Doug Shafer:
Do, uh, do me a favor. How do you spell the, your, the new one? 'Cause I can't pronounce it.
Jamie Araujo:
Oh. Trois Noix. Sorry. It means three nuts in French.
Doug Shafer:
Three nuts. Okay.
Jamie Araujo:
It's T-R-O-I-S.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Jamie Araujo:
N-O-I-X.
Doug Shafer:
Beautiful.
Jamie Araujo:
And if you imagine it like T-W-A N-W-A. So, Trois Noix.
Doug Shafer:
Trois Noix.
Jamie Araujo:
There you go.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. And what and what flavors in, in that one?
Jamie Araujo:
Um, so, it's a little more, um, (laughs) little more, uh, yeah. Different. So, we do the cabernet and the sauvignon blanc.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
And the chardonnay. And coming out next year, we actually have a red blend and a Cab Franc.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Jamie Araujo:
And, um, a rosé coming out as well. So, a pinot noir rose, which, and it's, you know, our, our sort of motto is, um, "Community, poss- opportunity, possibility." So, um, I think the rosé is the perfect example. I had a friend from high school who randomly sent me an Instagram message after seeing all my stuff about harvest this year. And he said, "Uh, have, do you have any use for, like, three tons of pinot noir? 'Cause I've got this stuff at my house in Sonoma, and the guy who usually takes it says he can't use it anymore. And I don't know what to do." It's like, "Okay." So we have this opportunity, and I went to the winemaker and the GM, and I was like, "What do you guys think? We're getting three tons of pinot noir for free. We could make a rosé." And they're like, "Awesome, let's do it."
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Jamie Araujo:
And so we-
Doug Shafer:
Fun.
Jamie Araujo:
... grabbed a crew and went over harvested and are making Sonoma rosé of pinot noir.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Jamie Araujo:
Um, so, anyway. Yeah, so, but you know, I can be a little more nimble with Trois Noix.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
Because the stakes aren't quite as high, and also I'm a little more ... There aren't as many decision makers, I guess.
Doug Shafer:
Of course, that's fun. It's your own thing. That's good to have.
Jamie Araujo:
It is fun. It is fun.
Doug Shafer:
S- so, tell, how can people find all these different wines? What's the best way for them to, if they're wanting to check them out?
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah, absolutely. So, Accendo is, um, you know, we really, we don't make very much. Um, and so, we do have, uh, our wines on allocation. Um, but if you come onto our website, so Accendo Cellars dot com, A-C-C-E-N-D-O. Um.
Doug Shafer:
Thank you.
Jamie Araujo:
You can sign up.
Jamie Araujo:
Uh, to the mailing list, and- and get those offers sent to you, which is great. Um, our amazing Director of Private Clients, uh, Mikael Tigrett is awesome, and he will take very good care of you. And Trois Noix, um, we actually have our Troixnoiswine.com is the website, and our wines are actually for sale on the website, so you can buy them directly from us.
Doug Shafer:
Um, good. Sounds great.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, I- I- I'm gonna, I'm a little hesitant to ask, but is there any- anything else going on? Any new projects? (laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
(laughs) I think I'm good for now. I think I'm good for now.
Doug Shafer:
You're good for now.
Jamie Araujo:
No, I'm just sort of, you know, it's funny. I'm just, I cannot get over the fact that I have not been on a plane since March.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I'm-
Jamie Araujo:
I-
Doug Shafer:
... with you on that one. That- that's been a real-
Jamie Araujo:
I mean-
Doug Shafer:
... strange one.
Jamie Araujo:
It's crazy. I usually travel two weeks a month.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
So, um, yeah. It's been very weird, but it's also kind of been wonderful to be here and kind of have boots-on-the-ground, um, constantly-
Doug Shafer:
No, I- I'm-
Jamie Araujo:
... for such a long time.
Doug Shafer:
... I'm with you. It's an adjustment. It's definitely-
Jamie Araujo:
It is.
Doug Shafer:
... it's been one and- and, uh, it's, I, uh, just can't think about what's gonna happen. We'll just figure it out. It'll happen.
Jamie Araujo:
We will, indeed.
Doug Shafer:
So.
Jamie Araujo:
And I think, you know, it's interesting. I- I was thinking about this as I was driving up today, knowing obviously, that I was gonna speak with you. Um, and thinking about your dad and my dad, to your point earlier. Um, and I was thinking, you know, it's so interesting, and I think you're a lot further along, your process in this, so I would love to take you out to lunch sometime and hear all about it. But, um, I was just thinking it's, we're on such an interesting position where we're trying to find that balance between ... I mean, these are dudes who like have a big shadow, right? Have a big footprint.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
Their, what they have accomplished is absolutely extraordinary. They're very strong personalities and- and- and they've done incredible things. I mean, it, the respect is just, y- you know, well deserved and- and- and mind blowing. And how do you keep honoring that shadow and keep respecting that space, and also have your own ... 'cause w-, you know, obviously we're the s-, we have some of our, the same of our parents' ideals and ways of working and being, and-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
... and the wines, and things like that, and we all are on the same page as far as that's concerned. But we're also different people. We also have different personalities. And I just think it's so interesting because I think sometimes in our, whether it's in our companies or our families or ourselves, we sort of get caught up in that or- or knotted up in that. And I'm wondering if it's actually kind of a wonderful thing for people outside our organization because they can sort of see our brand, our wine, whatever it is that they love, and that they continue to love, but they get a whole kind of fresh person, like a whole new layer to it with the next generation. I don't know.
Doug Shafer:
Well, you st-, you do-
Jamie Araujo:
Thoughts I have in my car. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You do, you do a couple things. You- you make good wine, as good a wine as you can every year, no matter what. That- that goes without saying.
Jamie Araujo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And- and you be yourself.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's what my dad always told me. I'd be, I'd be going out to do a winemaker dinner at, back in the early days, I'd be all nervous. It's like, you know, "Dad, how do you do it?" And taking my notes.
Jamie Araujo:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
And he looks at me and goes, "Just be yourself." And trust me-
Jamie Araujo:
Aww.
Doug Shafer:
... a Winemaker Dinner with John Shafer versus Doug Shafer are- are like night and day, but they both-
Jamie Araujo:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... but- but (laughs), tr-, it's a true story. But they both-
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... worked. They both worked.
Jamie Araujo:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, um, for different reasons, and for even the same type of crowds, so. So, just be yourself.
Jamie Araujo:
Well, that's great advice.
Doug Shafer:
Be yourself and make good wine. It's easy. (laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Well, the-
Jamie Araujo:
That's awesome.
Doug Shafer:
... the first part's easy. Second part's a -
Jamie Araujo:
(laughs) Yeah, for sure.
Doug Shafer:
All right, you. Jamie, Jamie. So good to talk to you.
Jamie Araujo:
Well, can I tell you one quick-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah.
Jamie Araujo:
... one qui-, sorry.
Doug Shafer:
Please.
Jamie Araujo:
There's one tiny little Hillside Select story that I have to tell you.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Jamie Araujo:
And you can edit it out later if you want, but.
Doug Shafer:
No, it's fine.
Jamie Araujo:
So, um, my brother and I were just first back in the Valley, and working with Accendo, doing all this stuff. And we (laughs) went to the Barrel Auction. Auction Napa Valley, right? Barrel Auction on Friday for the first time.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
And so, we're walking in, we're looking at all this stuff, and I look at my brother and of course, w-, you know, we know what the Barrel Auction is, right? 'Cause our family's been doing Auction Napa Valley for years.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
So, we walk in and I'm looking at the numbers, and I'm like, "Greg, this is a steal." Like, "This is crazy."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Oh, that's-
Jamie Araujo:
"For a barrel of wine, this is so cheap. We totally-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... have to bid on this stuff."
Doug Shafer:
I do remember this.
Jamie Araujo:
And he's like, "Good idea." So, (laughs) we go in and we bid on two things. The only two things we wanted to bid on, uh, were, uh, Covert, uh, which is made by our friend Julien Fayard, and-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
... Hillside Select.
Doug Shafer:
Right. (laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
So, we put a bid in on, and so we put bids on both of 'em (laughs)-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
... and then all of a sudden found out that it's a case. It's not a barrel.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) I- I-
Jamie Araujo:
And we're like-
Doug Shafer:
... do remember this.
Jamie Araujo:
... "Oh, no."
Doug Shafer:
Oh, 'cause you-, oh.
Jamie Araujo:
Anyway, and then, you know, you sort of, your name drops off if your, if 10 people bid over you.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Jamie Araujo:
So, we're watching our name go down. We're like, "Drop off, drop off. Come on, drop off. Come on."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Jamie Araujo:
Anyway, very happy now-
Doug Shafer:
Aw.
Jamie Araujo:
... to have won our Hillside Select, which is sitting snugly in my cellar. And my brother actually had a bottle of it the other day, and he wanted to let me, he wanted me to let you know that he said it was absolutely (laughs)-
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Jamie Araujo:
... delicious.
Doug Shafer:
Well, I'm glad.
Jamie Araujo:
And he's gonna have a really hard time leaving it in his cellar now 'cause he knows how good it is.
Doug Shafer:
You know, I'd- I'd forgotten that story, but I do remember because I remember you coming up to me and saying, "Hey, Doug, let me get this straight. Is it ..." (laughs) I said, "Yes, Jamie-
Jamie Araujo:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... it's just a case. It's not a barrel." And the look on your face was like, "Oh, man. This is not good."
Jamie Araujo:
Oh, crud.
Doug Shafer:
All right. Well, hey, it's was for gr-, it's all for a gr-, it was for a good cause, so.
Jamie Araujo:
Definitely, definitely.
Doug Shafer:
Well done, well done.
Jamie Araujo:
Well, well done you, 'cause the wine's gorgeous.
Doug Shafer:
Thanks so much for taking the time. It was great to hear your story. I learned a bunch of things I've never known before and, uh, take care of yourself. Say hi to your mom and dad for me, okay?
Jamie Araujo:
You too. Take very good care, and we'll see you soon. Thanks again for having me. I really had a pleasure.
Doug Shafer:
All right. Thanks, Jamie. See ya.
Jamie Araujo:
(laughs) Take care. Bye.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Doug Shafer: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of The Taste. This is Doug Shafer in the beautiful Napa Valley. And we've got, uh, a special guest today, Mr. Oscar Renteria. He's CEO, owner of the family-owned Renteria Vineyard Management Company. One of the largest vineyard management companies in Napa Valley. Uh, welcome, Oscar. How are you?
Oscar Renteria:
Oh, God, Doug. Thank you so much for having me. I'm doing great. Um, thank you for having me on today. It's a, it's a privilege and an honor.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man. I, thanks for taking the time. I got to tell you. Um, I was thinking about you the other night ... I was trying to think about when the first time we met. (laughs) And I think it was at, I think it was at a, a school open house for both our daughters who are going to the same school. And I, you know, I ran in-
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... Randy would start talking. I'd, I'd heard about you. You were a fair, you're, you know, you, you have a reputation out there.
Oscar Renteria:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
And I heard about this crazy guy, Oscar Renteria. And so, all of a sudden, you know, w- we're meeting each other. And it's like, you know, yeah. I know him. Yeah. I work with him. It's like, we have all these people in common. But you and I have never, our paths have never crossed. I thought that was kind of wild-
Oscar Renteria:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
... After all these years.
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah. I know. Yeah. That's right.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
Well, I had met your, you know what, before I met you, I've met your father. We go back to the day when, uh, you know, he was serving in Clinic Ole. He was, he was asking for money and-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
... Come around uh, uh, uh, all these guys at the table and these ladies, uh, of, you know, of age and respect. And then there was this, uh, single, uh, you know, Mexican-American young guy over here. And quite an honor. I mean, your dad, your, your father taught me about giving and the importance of the community. That was, that was, I was young. I think you were probably in diapers.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
I don't remember. That was, that's 20, (laughs) it's like 18, 20 years ago.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Oscar Renteria:
Crazy.
Doug Shafer:
I never knew.
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah. So.
Doug Shafer:
I never knew that you knew him early. That's great.
Oscar Renteria:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
That's cool.
Oscar Renteria:
Absolutely. He ha- he hunted me down. I said, "You know, I, my $5 is more like your 5,000." But I'm, I'm, I'm going to give. But he got me inclu- he got me involved. He got me engaged. He educated me. And it was, i- it was a start of my awareness of being, you know, to being involved in the community. And it started with your father.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Oscar Renteria:
First and foremost. Yeah. It was a big ki- it was a big kick in the butt for sure, which is great.
Doug Shafer:
Super. Thanks for sharing that.
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's great to hear.
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah. So listen. I want to get into your story but, but I want, you're, you're fa- lis- you're, not just you. It's your family story. So the whole deal. So, we got to go way back to set the stage for everybody to know to- what's going on. But before we get to that, I haven't had any f- anybody on here that, that's works in vineyard management. How, you know, you own and run this amazingly successful vineyard management company. How, uh, how do you explain that to someone? On, you, you know, I mean-
Oscar Renteria:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... So, what do you, what do you guys do?
Oscar Renteria:
Oh, boy. Um.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
You know, that's a, that's, that's a good one. We do, uh, we do a lot of things that people don't see. But hopefully, what we, we end up doing is, uh, being able to deliver, you know, the best fruit possible for folks. And working the land and we were, we're, we're protecting assets and we're nurturing. We're hoping we're bringing happiness to winemakers and their, endeavors. Um, uh, but we're, uh, as my dad says is you know, we're babysitting, you know, people's children. And he relates ki- he relates children to the stages of growth of vines. And how to treat them and how they wake up and their stages of growth. Uh, you know, and, uh, I just, uh, I've been born, I was born to it. And just love to do it but you know, we tend to do a lot of things people don't see. We've got a, you know, we're fighting pests and disease. We're managing cover crops. We're looking at how we can improve and you know, we live in a valley in an area where it's very competitive but it's great for those that want to be the best. And this, (laughs) nothing here, nothing more than the valley drives you to want to be the best.
Oscar Renteria:
The endeavor, it's, it's a lot. You know, people always get excited and you know, as you know, we're, we're just are starting harvest now. But, uh, really for us, the busy time of the season has started a while ago from pr- protecting the vines from frost. When people are asleep, we're up protecting it. It's definitely a love of the land. It's a love of, of doing something that grows and produces something. And then we hand over those chicks for you guys to-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
... You know, to do, to do wonders with and hopefully, those chicks will bring you some, uh, some good results.
Doug Shafer:
There you go. And, uh, you know, I'm, I'm not as much of a farmer as you are. Good thing, for sure but it, uh, it does seem like the farmers are the ones that are always out in the dark. (laughs) And then-
Oscar Renteria:
(laughs) That's true.
Doug Shafer:
... You know what it needs for this, for this-
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... So early, uh, with frost protection that can be, uh, you know, midnight or one or two in the morning. And then you're up early anyway during the growing season and then the harvest comes. And everybody picks at night now. So now, you're, you know, working 10, 11, 12 o'clock at night until sun up. I mean, I, I tell people when they visit Napa Valley. Like during harvest, they say, "Hey. We want to see p- see picking." I say, "Well, you're out of luck." (laughs) Or-
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... Get a, get a late dinner and/or stay up and then go drive around at one or two in the morning. And look for, uh, these lunar lander type, you know, lighting operations.
Oscar Renteria:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
And then there'll be a crew of I, crew of folks picking grapes. That's great.
Oscar Renteria:
Exactly. No. Exactly. That's what exactly what it is, Doug. You know and, and it, it's interesting because there's, uh, you know, um, growing grapes, uh, in the valley and, and you know, a- again, like I said, you know. I, I come from a, a legacy. Tell you about that in a bit. But, um, it's just, uh, it's, it's just, I, I find it to be in, in thrill, I mean, just thrilling. Because every season, I know we hear this all the time. Every season, it's different. It really is. It really is. And not only that but vine's the way that, you know, vines how they mature and how they start to get into the golden years. And, and then we got financial, you know, models. And we've got, um, it's a lot of pressure, you know. And, but I love that pressure. And I love to learn. And if you're not in this game to learn and definitely can see the fact that you're dealing with mother nature and the changes, that you continue to, to, uh, always progress and learn, you got to learn. And if you think you know everything, uh, you're in the wrong business.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughs) Oh, well, we all know that one. Um.
Oscar Renteria:
Right. Right.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, and on top, on top of that, you got these crazy winemakers you got to deal with.
Oscar Renteria:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You know. And, and, and just like, just like every year of every vineyard here, no two winemakers are alike either. You know, one wants-
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... This. One wants that. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
Oscar Renteria:
Oh, it's crazy.
Doug Shafer:
Uh, yeah.
Oscar Renteria:
But you know, the best, but you know, the, the best partnerships are those that all are on the same page. I don't want people that, that, that, uh, that work for me that, that give me yes. I want clients who are going to challenge me. I want to know. "Hey. How can we, how can we do the best? To be, is because this is possible and be ready. Because changes come our way whether we're in control of those or not in control of them.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right. So-
Oscar Renteria:
And what you do is super important. I mean, you know, listen. The end product, if we can't sell our goods, we can't, we can't, we can't tell our story. We can't make emotional connections without what you do. And I learned that the hard way from making wine. We can't do what we do. So, kudos to you. Uh, unfortunately, I got to give you kudos.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing) You know, from you, buddy, I'll take them today. (laughing)
Oscar Renteria:
All right.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.
Oscar Renteria:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
And, you know, it's funny. It's, uh, yeah. I remember getting, when I first got into this gig. It was a little bit of grower versus winemaker. I mean, it was, uh-
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... There, and, and to a point, that it still happens a little bit. But, uh, boy, that, that is not the case at all anymore. Uh, is, if you were going to be successful in either growing grapes or making wine, you have to work hand in hand. I, uh, in my opinion and that's the success stories. And I've, you've probably seen that.
Oscar Renteria:
And, and you know what, Doug? You're right. Because it really in almost any success story, you're going to find one common denominator. And that's your, a very good relationship. I don't care if (laughs) it's with your partner or with your employees. Or with God or between grower, wearing, wearing the grower hat and the winer hat. It's about the relationship. And that's going to get you through the thick and thin. And it's going to, uh, hopefully, it's going to do, it's going to produce the best you got.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And hopefully, have a little fun along the way, too. You know?
Oscar Renteria:
Both. Well, that's important.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
That's important.
Doug Shafer:
So is-
Oscar Renteria:
My motto has always been work hard and play harder.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I know that about you. That's why I don't play with you. (laughing) I just work with you. (laughing) Anyway. So you mentioned your story. Let's hear the Renteria story. This goes way back with your dad. So, give me the whole entire-
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... There.
Oscar Renteria:
Well, let me start first with a, with, with a, my mother. And my mother is the first one that will, to, to come to Napa Valley and, and, uh, landed in Yountville in 1952 at the age of 13.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Oscar Renteria:
Her and seven of her, um, siblings, her sisters and brothers, um, came with their mom and dad. And back then, you know, that was a ha- that was a hard, that was a hard trek. Yeah. She still tells the story, um, of at the age of 13. It took her about three days to get through the tunnel systems. She came to, to the United States illegally. And, um, was really difficult. It was really hard. And to hear somebody her age and, and, and my mother who was here was actually deported and spent the couple of days one in Napa County, uh, and another one in San Diego while she awaited to be deported to Mexico, uh, back to Mexico with her sisters. So, it, boy, I tell you. Uh, this is the first place where this starts.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Oscar Renteria:
Because, because it was my mother, right? And I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for a mom and that's my mother. So, it, and actually, she picked, when she came here at the age of 13, she ca- she went all over California. They picked, uh, tomatoes and cotton, artichokes, strawberries, uh, apples. Of course, prunes, walnuts and of, and grapes. Like a lot of people looking for the American dream. She worked her tail off. So a lot has to do with my mother coming here first in Yountville. And then, my father in 1962. In 1962, he came straight from San Diego in a Greyhound Bus. And landed at where the Rutherford Grill is now. That was the handy store.
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Oscar Renteria:
Uh, yeah? The handy store. That's where La Luna was. And the day my dad came here, uh, 1962, August 16th, actually met my mother that same day here. Uh, my uncle, my had, uh, my dad, my father didn't have a dime to him. But my uncle who came here, uh, before my father in '59 through the Bracero program.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Oscar Renteria:
And still lives in the same house in the town of Rutherford. Um, right behind right behind BV, uh, that he, that he lived when he was there in '59. And that's how my dad got his start. He came here to, had an opportunity and worked his tail off.
Doug Shafer:
That's in, that's Salvador. It's all your dad.
Oscar Renteria:
Salvador, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, wow.
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah. My o- my old man.
Doug Shafer:
Your old man.
Oscar Renteria:
He's still, he's still a lot, he's still alive. He's 81. He's a pain.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
He's a, he's the, uh, founder, and a, well, it's on his business card. And then, uh, uh, and then, abuelito, grandpa. But he's a, he's in charge of quality control. We're still trying to define what that really means for him. I know he gets a paycheck. (laughing) He's, uh, it's nice to have your father on your, on your, uh, on your payroll.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Oscar Renteria:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I know the, I know that one.
Oscar Renteria:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
That was-
Oscar Renteria:
You know the deal. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Oh, I know the deal.
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Especially, especially when he, he'd go out, you know. He, he expensed to every lunch and dinner you ever had. It's like, that's not-
Oscar Renteria:
Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
... That's okay, you know. Without him-
Oscar Renteria:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
... Without him-
Oscar Renteria:
Yup.
Doug Shafer:
... You know, I wouldn't be here we, doing this. So.
Oscar Renteria:
That's right, Doug. Without them.
Doug Shafer:
So he, so he started out. What was, what did he do when he first got here? Just work in vineyards? Work in the fields?
Oscar Renteria:
Uh, you know, his first, his first, uh, place that he started was at Sterling Vineyards in 1962. And was there for, eight months. And just really had a hard time with the field work. From the town he came from, from, uh, Santa Cruz Vista Hermosa, Guadalajara in Mexico. Uh, sorry, in, uh, Jalisco-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Oscar Renteria:
... Um, he worked in the, in the sugar, in the cane sugar fields. So he was used to working in the cane sugar fields. The work in the vineyard was a little bit harder. And he was older when he was doing it. So he wasn't that fond of that fir- his first try, uh, at harvest. So he left with another friend who invited him to go to Chicago.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Chicago?
Oscar Renteria:
Chicago because my father from a small town was a pool shark. And he was a barber. That was his trade. He was a barber.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Oscar Renteria:
And so, somebody had a p- a bar- uh, he went to go visit. Somebody had a pool hall. And said, "Hey, look. We'll put you right here. You can cut hair." And, you know, and, and, uh, nobody knew he was a pool shark.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
But he was. Back then, the, you know, you would be making, uh, maybe, I think the average, uh, average wage, hourly wage in, uh, in Chicago was about two bucks. And my father would be making 40, $50 a day just, um, shooting pool.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
Crazy. Crazy. So, so then-
Doug Shafer:
That's a crazy story.
Oscar Renteria:
... Uh, yeah. Yeah. And then he left because it got too cold. I mean, I think my dad's a little fi- I mean, he's a tough man. But boy, he was fi- (laughs) his skin was, skin was thin. Not like mine. And so, he-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
... He, um, it got too cold for him. He came back. And he settled back into, back at Sterling again.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Oscar Renteria:
And he, and worked his butt off from a, a, you know, field worker picking grapes again. Recognized as a tractor operator, then as a foreman, then as a manager, then as a supervisor. And really, I think in 1968, when Sterling was developing the Three Palms Vineyard- ... Owned by the Sloan, Sloan family, um, that he got his big chance to be the, what he would say was that one of the, well, the first real, first Mexicans to be given a chance to do it his way. Do it and they knew, they knew him and he then knew his talents. And that, uh, you know, he, he got that opportunity. And he, he took it. And he ran and then, uh, when, uh, in '72, when, um, an, an, management company here was foreign by the name of Walsh Vineyard Management, my father and Mike Walsh formed that company together. He was that number one man.
Oscar Renteria:
And my father would tell you to this day that really where he, he honed his skills is when they were developing the BV Vineyards alongside Andre Tchelistcheff. Because Andre took my father in and s- sh- uh, shown the technical side of, of viticulture. My father had the practical side down. Because even Andre wouldn't hold a pair of sheers in front of my dad in the field. None, nobody would. I mean, he's a skilled barber. He's a skilled pool shark.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
And it, it's incredible how he wields, uh, shears. I mean, (laughs) it's f- it's a pretty cool thing to see him do it.
Doug Shafer:
... That's amazing. So he was at-
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... Sterling for how long was he at Sterling?
Oscar Renteria:
He was at Sterling for twe- almost, uh, yeah, almost 12 years and then that Vineyard Management Company started in '72. And he came, yeah. He came with my, with, uh, with Mike Walsh to start that company and he stayed with Mike until 19, 1987. But along the way, he, he had developed the vineyards for, uh, BV. He developed, uh, vineyards for, um, Disney. In fact, I remember because I didn't know. I, I knew who would, I knew who Linda Disney was. I think (laughs) my father was walking with Linda Disney.
Doug Shafer:
Which is Sil- Silverado Vineyards.
Oscar Renteria:
Crazy.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Oscar Renteria:
Yup. Silverado Vineyard. And back then, Ric Forman and Nils Venge, um, uh, I mean, he just had a treme- a lot, um, a lot of stories about a lot of folks. I think that's what was really interesting. What I heard, what my father, uh, in, uh, he, um, he retired. He announced his retirement in 1987. And I came home from, from college for the, for his, his going away party. And there were titans of industry in there. I w- I knew the names. I didn't really appreciate the names. But the who's who were in that room.
Oscar Renteria:
And the thing they were telling me were that, you know, yeah. Your father's a master when it comes to vineyards and all that. Yeah. That, that, nobody, uh, he's second to none. But what made my father signi- what they thought of my father is that is just such a good person and a leader. And really showed that he cared and he instilled the qua- w- quality met and pride of ownership to farm workers who were doing at work. Because back then, Andre Tchelistcheff and a lot of other folks were really looking at honing down on, you know, two bud shoots, canes, arching, different techniques but having pride and ownership.
Oscar Renteria:
And my ha- was, my father was in there. Still extremely passionate man.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Oscar Renteria:
He gets, he gets hot. He gets hot. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Well, you know, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, big guy.
Oscar Renteria:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Um, but you know, I just found out something that I never knew about, um, Mike Walsh's company. So-
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... I was, uh, let's see. When did we buy Red Shoulder? Um-
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... '88?
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Late '80s. I had another company. Farm it for a few years, develop it and it was time to, um, make a change in the vineyard. So I hooked up with Walsh because they were right next to Red Shoulder doing the-
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... Cuvaison stuff that was their home base.
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And Walsh at that time, I mean, they were just an animal of a vineyard management company and still are. They're great.
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Their reputation and I got to work with Mike for a few years before he retired. But, uh, some of the other guys under him but I never knew that your dad was with him in the early years. That's-
Oscar Renteria:
Number one-
Doug Shafer:
That's-
Oscar Renteria:
... Number one man.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Because and, um-
Oscar Renteria:
Number one guy.
Doug Shafer:
... Because the Walsh Vineyard Management Company like the Renteria Company, um, known for quality. Quality, quality, quality. You want something done super good, super right. That's who you call. So
Oscar Renteria:
And not cheap.
Doug Shafer:
There's that.
Oscar Renteria:
And not cheap.
Doug Shafer:
And not-
Oscar Renteria:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
... Yeah. And yeah. I know that one. (laughing) Yeah. But you know, you realize I, I've got my own vineyard crew right now. But hey, Oscar. Maybe someday, we could get together on something. So.
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Yeah. Give me a special deal.
Oscar Renteria:
Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
All right. So, fantastic father. And then when do you, when do you show up into the world?
Oscar Renteria:
Well, I showed up in the world in 1967. Um, then, uh, that I remember, I have (laughs) still do, remember? Thir- I have 13, I have 14 aunts and uncles that lived in the valley then. Still do. Some, uh, um, and, uh, 36 fru-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
... 14 aunts and uncles. 36 first cousins. I remember back then because we would congregate-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
... On the weekends in that soccer field at, at RLS soccer field. And it was, it wa- they were huge parties. But these are families that came and, and he, my father had, and between my mother and my father, I'd say there was 14 of them. But the Olgins and the Aguirre's and the Lopez' and the Gonz- I mean, these families were huge.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
They're just huge families. And, uh, I, at the age of 11 usually, yeah, about the age of 11, unless you were a little bit bigger. Um, a, a male, that's about the time that a, that the expectation of a c- of a, of a male son of farmer, of a farm worker would start working in the fields.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Oscar Renteria:
That would be your Thanksgiving, your Christmas, your summer vacations. But I thought it was pretty fun because my aunts, my unc- my aunts and uncles and my cousins were out there. You know, we were out there at Three Palms and we were just doing shoot tying or removing, I, we couldn't prune because our hands were not strong enough to close the shears.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Oscar Renteria:
But everything else, that's how we lived. And that, and I liked it because like, I, I made money and my m- mother (laughs) and my father were very ins- very persistent about making sure that I understood that if I didn't want to work with a shovel long term, I better study. And my mom was, she was, uh, was, if it wasn't for my mother, I, my education, it was, it was my mom that did it. I only spoke Spanish. Like all of my cousins, we didn't speak English- In, in St. Helena and, um, you know, for the, my preschool and my first gra- first grade, it was, uh, only Spanish speaking, uh, kids in that class. And my mother intentionally at the, the beg- at the end of my f- uh, first grade, she moved us to Napa. We were the only family that moved out of St. Helena. We moved to Napa. And for the reasons that I would go to a Catholic school and it has to be Catholic and to learn the language. Well, she tossed me in second grade at St. Apolinaris. There's, uh, not knowing a word of, of English. Uh, that was pretty traumatic. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Gosh.
Oscar Renteria:
That was pretty traumatic.
Doug Shafer:
You got to be kidding me. Well-
Oscar Renteria:
But she's awesome.
Doug Shafer:
... What was that like? That must have been crazy. You probably remember it like it was yesterday.
Oscar Renteria:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
Right?
Oscar Renteria:
You know, yeah. I, yeah, I do. It was, I had these images. I, there was, there was the nuns that protected me. There was a priest that, Father Bob who was great. But I got picked on. I, I really did. I got picked on. I got in my first fight when I was in second grade actually with Steve Leveque who's a winemaker at Hall. Now he's on his own. He's been with Chalk Hill.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
I've known that guy since second grade.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
He will debate to this day but I actually kicked his butt.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
I actually broke his, actually, (laughs) he, his, he had blood on him, not on me. My blood was from his, from my fist. (laughs) but, um, but-
Doug Shafer:
Uh.
Oscar Renteria:
... But I got, I got picked on. But you know what? I, it made me strong. And my father was a, was a person. I remember my first, that was, that was a small fight. But my first real fight was in seventh grade. And, uh, and, and my father, even though I, I, you know, I, I defended myself, he was not happy about the fact that I, I, I, I was, I was getting- ... physical or would punch somebody. And he showed me a picture. He says, "You think that you, you th- you don't have any idea (laughs) about discrimination. Let me show you." So he showed me a picture that he's on the beach in Chicago in 1962. The beach, the ocean, the, the-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Oscar Renteria:
... The giant lake.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, the lake. Right.
Oscar Renteria:
And it said, he, the sign said, "No, it, uh, it, no Chinese. No Mexicans. No dogs allowed on this beach."
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Oscar Renteria:
That kind of, that, that put it into perspective to me. I thought, you know, I do, I, I do, um, I do understand. And I am listening. I know the hardships of folks. My father and my mother were really great about making sure I didn't hold, uh, you know, resentments. And I, I, um, I really sought ways to forgive. My mother's extremely forgiving and for whatever reason, um, I got that trait from my mother. Crazy. It's crazy. (laughs) It's crazy.
Doug Shafer:
That's crazy but good for her, you know -
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Oscar Renteria:
And you know, and Doug, the other thing is that, you know, the, the, everyone of our families, all of us were told. The kids were told that we were going to be here for a few years and then we're make, they're making money. And we're going back to the mother country. We're going back to Mexico where they could build a house and have some money. That never happened. And it was pretty disruptive of my 36 first cousins. There's a, two ha- uh, c- uh, you know, six or seven of us that ever went to college.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. I'm just blown away hearing the story. Um, that must have been kind of disconcerting, too. You're growing up thinking, you know, at any time, you guys might need to move back to Mexico. That must have been kind-
Oscar Renteria:
I mean, it was hard because you didn't know. You were confu- at that age, you-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Oscar Renteria:
... You know, it was, it was hard to know. I just, uh, but I did know this that it took hard work. What we were doing here but I was, you know, there was a lot of family, a lot of people here. The parties were big back then. I mean, it was a, it's a, it was a-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
... A lot of people on the weekends. And my father, he sponsored and coached a semi pro soccer team. So we always had, it, whether it was the workers or whether he was, you know, helping them out financially or whatever. My dad gave a lot to, to, uh, the community. But, uh, s- soccer was just like a huge thing. I mean, there were, people were in our house all the time. All the time. (laughs) I didn't know who they were. They knew me then we knew them. But, um, my f- my dad was extremely, um, very open to the community. And, and, uh, and I, and like a very important role model. You know, when I started taking over in '80, '87, I joined my, uh, sorry. In '89 when I joined my father and they finally bought, bought them out in '95. The one thing he told me was, "Listen. Here's the thing. I'm going to sell it to you but under one condition. Do not screw up my last name and your last name." We have a reputation.
Oscar Renteria:
Don't do anything that's going to ruin that. And improve on it. Do the right thing. Show that you care. At the end of the day, the wine, just, just, if you, when you got the grower and the, and the winemaker a, a, or the winemaker and the grower at odds, do what you think is right with the vine. Just, but be honest. So, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Oscar Renteria:
... Um, yeah. I to- I think it was my saving grace.
Doug Shafer:
Well, it's a-
Oscar Renteria:
A lesson.
Doug Shafer:
... He's a great father, man. You know, great example.
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Great mentor. You know, I, I had the same experience.
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Pretty unique. So-
Oscar Renteria:
We're pretty lucky.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Oscar Renteria:
We're lucky.
Doug Shafer:
We're lucky guys. So, high school. Justin-Siena?
Oscar Renteria:
Justin-Siena High School. Again-
Doug Shafer:
Catholic?
Oscar Renteria:
... Keeping up with my, yup. Yup.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Oscar Renteria:
Justin-Siena High School. Yup. I was a good Catholic kid. Yeah. I played football. Um, and I played, uh, I played basketball when I was in grade school. I played, um, a little bit of baseball when I was in grade school. But, uh, what I played was football when I was in high school. That was, that was kind of my sport. I never learned to play soccer because my father was so-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
... Deep into it and I was his son.
Doug Shafer:
Well-
Oscar Renteria:
He was also very tough. Tough on his son. He was very tough. He wanted me to be- if I wasn't going to be the best, he didn't. It was kind of interesting. This is a story that he tells me. He's like, "I didn't want to teach you because I thought, what if you failed?" I'm like, "What do you mean if I failed?" He was just, my father was a perfectionist as well. I, and I thank him for it. He worked, he worked, he, w- he worked me to the bone in, in learning the trade from him. My father w- it was also not just the technique.
Oscar Renteria:
But my dad was the really the mental part of the game, which was, you know, how you treat people. What do you do? How- conflict resolution but this is like an early stage of life. In the morning, he wanted me to f- be the first out there. He wanted me to be the last one to come home. But he would talk about work every meal, every dinner. Every, after hours. He'd walk into my room. What would you do? How could you see yourself getting rid of that person without firing him? I mean, it was, it was relentless. I w- I, I-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
... Moved in with, I moved in, I moved in after I graduated from college. He called me. I had no intent of coming back to Napa for the reasons kind of what you were saying is that, I, also took it for granted. It was a farming community. But I want to do my own thing. I want to find my own self and I went to s- after s- Justin-Siena High School, I graduated there and I went to St. Mary's College ... in Moraga in the, in the East Bay. And, um-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. What was, what was the plan?
Oscar Renteria:
... I-
Doug Shafer:
What did you study?
Oscar Renteria:
Loved it. I studied business.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Oscar Renteria:
And that, I wanted to do business and out of the class of 1,003 people, there are only four Latinos. And I was actually rec- you know, recruited by a money manager. I didn't know what that meant. (laughing) I had no idea. But I was excited because I bought some suits. Then my father called me. August 17th, about a week before I'm going to start, he's like, "Hey. You know what? You know, I, I have this little thing. I'm managing, uh, 40 acres. I got a, you know, five employees and myself." And he was doing everything.
Oscar Renteria:
Uh, it started in '87 and I was doing it, you know, but now, I, I think I'm going to take it more seriously. And I wondered if you come home and help me. I didn't ask him what he's going to pay me.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
And ask him what it was and, uh, I came home. I was, I'm indebted to my parents for their sacrifice and their story and what they've been able to do for me and for, and for my family and for others. So, that was an easy response. I wasn’t aware he wasn't going to pay me.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
Um, but I guess he paid me-
Doug Shafer:
So let me, why, why, you le-
Oscar Renteria:
... With food? (laughs) Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... Well, let me get this straight. So he was at, uh, Walsh until '87.
Oscar Renteria:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Retired from Walsh and they s- and then he started his own vineyard management company in '87.
Oscar Renteria:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
So he was, how-
Oscar Renteria:
Yes. Six months later.
Doug Shafer:
... How old was he? 50-ish?
Oscar Renteria:
Late 40s, early 50s.
Doug Shafer:
And you're getting out of college.
Oscar Renteria:
Which is young.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah? Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It is.
Oscar Renteria:
Ge- I was getting out of college and he called me. And he says, "Come on down." And then, then, uh, for that first experience, I don't know if you remember this vintage, Doug. But 1989, it ran. It, it, it rained.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, boy. Yeah. I remember.
Oscar Renteria:
It was brutal.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Yeah. It was-
Oscar Renteria:
It was brutal. It was no fun. And I was up in Chiles Valley. We were harvesting fruits, Sauvignon blanc and he had helicopters he rented because it had rained. And the fruit, you could touch it, it would disin- disintegrate. You touch it with-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Oscar Renteria:
... And I was driving a f- I was driving an eight-ton forklift. Because, um, that's exactly what I did for 14 months when I came to work for my dad. He's like, "No, no, no, no. You're not going to, you're going to go right here." Like, where? Like, (laughs) get on that tractor. Get on that forklift. Get on that chopper. Get on that mower. You're going to cultivate, in-row mow. You're going to we- you're going to weed whack, which is good. You're going to spray. I, you know, I wanted to learn, I wanted to do what my father told me. But I want to learn from him and, and give him that pride and ownership.
Oscar Renteria:
But to try to re- try to gain respect. So, I worked as hard as I could. As hard as I could and as fast as I could and as, as the best that I could do. He was tough.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Oscar Renteria:
My father was tough. My father was tough. But, but I appreciate it. I love him for being tough. I blame him for being tough. But I also blame him for my success and who I am.
Doug Shafer:
I'm with you. So, meanwhile, when does your lovely bride come into the picture?
Oscar Renteria:
My, my beautiful bride showed up in 1986. She was a junior at s- at, uh, in a, in a high school here at Justin-Siena High School. And I was, uh, freshman in college. And my cousin, John Lopez was dating her best friend. And I didn't know her. You know, but apparently, she knew me in high school. Um, I was, a b- I was, uh, you know, I was, I was a, a bit popular back then. No longer, thank God. But bit, but bit back then and, and she knew who I was. And I, apparently I dated one or two of her, her classmates. But I, I, I didn't look for, I wasn't looking for a blind date.
Oscar Renteria:
So my cousin told me. It was a 49er game and I'm like, "Holy shit. I'm definitely going to the 49er."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
I mean, if I get a chance because I never had-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Oscar Renteria:
... My first experience, blind date, a Niner game. I thought there's got to be something wrong with this girl. And then that, then I, I met her at the c- at the stadium (laughs) tailgating. I'm like, "Holy Moly."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
It's two bir- two birds, one stone. I thought maybe she was, you know, she had, you know, bad, eyesight. I wasn't sure.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
She, I mean, she misidentified the wrong guy, you know. But man, uh, it just, just became, uh, instant. It was just an interesting relationship we had. It was love at first sight. Um, but she was young. 17 and I was a little young at 19. Um, so we dated for a few months after that. And then, um, af- as soon as the 9ers season was (laughing) over-
Doug Shafer:
Just as soon as the-
Oscar Renteria:
... Not really true. Maybe. Maybe. It might have been. It might have coincided. And we ended up going to St. Mary's College, um, uh, no plan at, either ones because we were broken up. And we got back together-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Oscar Renteria:
... About three years after she graduate, two years after she graduated. I proposed to her in '94. We got married in 1995. And she was actually, there were only three employees at Renteria Vineyard Management in 1995. She was one, one of the three employees. We had more than that. We had 20 employees.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Oscar Renteria:
And she was the office. She was the admin. She did all the payroll. She did, well, we didn't have HR department but she did payroll, accounts receivable, accounts payable. Um, but we were, uh, you know, we were a, a three-man band. My dad, um, Denise and myself. But you know, I got to tell you this, Doug before I forget. And I don't know if you remember the year that you're, that CIA when Copia opened and they gave their first year awards. It was Grower of the Year. Uh, I think Winemaker of the Year and Vineyard Manager of the Year. I don't remember the three awards given. It was your dad and it was at the, it was at the, um, that auditorium at the CIA.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Oscar Renteria:
The first year, you know, because, because they went, uh, they went, they went, uh, you know, they went out of business there a few, a couple two, three years after that. But your dad, but your dad, uh, Robert Mondavi and my father were the first three recipients of those, those awards that were, you know, they're in that theater. And I remember, it was, I mean, all the speeches were very touching. And my father, (laughs) this is kind of funny. My father is talking and he gave one of the best speeches ever. Very emotional for, for everybody in the s-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Oscar Renteria:
... In the, in the seats. And that he said, and, I have to say that if I looked and say what was been like my, uh, the o- the one person in my life of the success, uh, you know, in my, in where I have, I'd tell you. Because it was going to be my mother or I but then what he was saying referring to the business. I'm like, I'm getting ready. I'm prepping myself and kind of adjusting my seat.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
I'm like, "Oh." Wiping off the, wiping off the tear. He's like, "S- my, my daughter-in-law, Denise." So she stands up.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
I was, it, I wasn't jealous. I was kind of taken back and then super happy and proud. He's like, "If it wasn't for her to keep the peace with that guy and to help me with that guy, you know, we wouldn't be here. I wouldn't be here. And I got to give it to her." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
There you go. Well, good. She deserves it.
Oscar Renteria:
Sums it up.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Oscar Renteria:
She, just kind of, kind of tells you. I tell you.
Doug Shafer:
No. I, I've seen her in action with your three gorgeous daughters, you know. All the school stuff and organizing this and organizing that through the years. I mean, she's always, you know, always on it and just, so much energy. It's amazing to me.
Oscar Renteria:
You know, um, you know how life is. Life is, you know, life goes pretty quick. There's a lot of things you can u- you see sometimes don't stop. And that I'm very thankful that my wife and I continue to learn from her is this side of slowing down. And seeing and being present. It's not easy. Mindfulness and meditation. I've been, I've done, I'm doing some crazy things. I started eight years ago because of my wife. But I'm all in. And guess what? It, it really has done a lot for me, a lot. I wish I knew it 18 years ago.
Oscar Renteria:
But, uh, thank God I've, uh, I have found some religion and, and I listen to when she preaches it.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Good. Good, good to hear. So back on the work front, you're still working with your dad. And, uh, at some point, he steps back and you take over. What, tell me about that.
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah. So, uh, in '93, started having some health issues again. And that was he was, um, having, um, anxiety attacks. He all of a sudden, he just get, uh, just feel like he's walking and could, could walk into a black hole.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.
Oscar Renteria:
My dad had a lot, he had a lot of stress. And it was, to be honest with you, he s- he told me so that our, his doctor's like, "It was self-induced." He couldn't slow himself down. And he was talking about something. He's so passionate whether it was, uh, um, you know, soccer or, or vines. He'd just get excited. He- ... (laughs) he just gets so excited. Um, and so, and he asked me if I wanted, he wanted to transition. Plus he loved the game of golf. And he wanted to play more golf every day. And-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
... He plays, he plays six days of golf, um, six days of golf a week here at Silverado Country Club, my dad.
Doug Shafer:
Does he still?
Oscar Renteria:
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. You know when I-
Doug Shafer:
At 81.
Oscar Renteria:
... Knew he retired? Let me, let me tell you when I knew he finally retired. I, because in '93, he started, you know, he started to, towards that, that path. But in '95, it was, in the month of June. And I was in the office. And it was just my wife and I. And we were a little shop and little, little, little office. And we were, um, my dad came in. I'm on the phone. And he s- uh, he throws down a black and white 8.5 by 11 photocopy, a black and white of a Golfer Digest, of a golfer and a Golfer Digest, a swing. It was like a swing.
Oscar Renteria:
It was a diagram. And I'm on the phone. And he's talking. He's not talking to me but he's making gestures. And he's looking at me. He's like, "You know, you got to break the e-." He said, "I can see he's trying to do his break his hips and uncoil and-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
... He's talking to me while I'm on the phone. And now, I just got to tell you because I like to play golf, too. But, uh, when I started working for my dad, I stopped playing golf.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Oscar Renteria:
That was it. I used to play two or three days a week. And when I came to work for him, nothing.
Doug Shafer:
Nothing. No.
Oscar Renteria:
Zero.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Oscar Renteria:
No, no, no. Zilch.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Oscar Renteria:
Zilch. And so, uh, um, so, he, he throws his paper. He leaves. I get off the phone. And I turn to my wife, I'm like, "Oh, my God." That was 1995. Said, "My dad just retired." She's like, "What do you mean?" I was like, "My dad never comes and talks to me."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
We talk about golf but, but it's the fourth or fifth conversation, the third or fourth hour, not the first thing. He just retired.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Oscar Renteria:
He just retired. And he, and he did. That's when he stopped looking over my shoulder. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Oscar Renteria:
I mean, he retired.
Doug Shafer:
That's good.
Oscar Renteria:
So, gave up the reins. I was, you know, I was, it was interesting when I graduated from college, I had offers for, for work, working for, at Beringer by Bob Steinhauer, at Hartwell. Like other places in, and my dad told me about this. Like, yes, you know, you're getting some offers to go work but you don't know poop about vineyard management.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
I mean, that tiny things, you know, how to hold shears and stuff. But I said, "Why would they offer me a job?" "Because you're my son. They think because you're my son, I'm going to tell you or teach you." That's crazy. No way.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
But, but you should know, you can go over there and you're going to make money. But if you come with me in this business, you're going to see Cabernet growing up all over the valley in different places. You get to experience different things. And to me, that was, and of course, I, I had, I needed to work for my father and help him.
Doug Shafer:
Well, that was your, plus, that was your PhD. I mean, that, you know-
Oscar Renteria:
Oh, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... I mean, look what, you never would have had that. Um, I've been f- oh, not frustrated but sometimes, I'm not jealous. I'm not frustrated but I look, it's like, uh, folks that are consulting winemakers and get to go to have seven or eight or nine clients. And so, they get to go to these different spots to, to get to deal with fruit from different areas. You know-
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... And that to me, we, I mean, if someone say, "Hey. What would you like to do?" That would be really fun. Just to go-
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... Try to learn fruit in a new spot. I mean, you know, we have great vineyards. I love our fruit. And we know it well but it, you know, you know, sometimes, we're looking to do new things. That, that would be kind of cool. And you got that early on, which has made you invaluable as a vineyard manager. You know, without a doubt.
Oscar Renteria:
We're one of the first to start picking Sauvignon blanc. And we started last week in the valley. We'll be one of the last to be picking Cabernet. Because we grew ca- we, we grow our grapes in all 16 appellations in the Napa Valley. And you know, we bring in about 8,000 tons. And it's-
Doug Shafer:
Oof.
Oscar Renteria:
... From one end to the other-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
... From one end to the other. And, you know, our biggest client is, is Rombauer. And our smallest client is Blackbird.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Oscar Renteria:
With full gamut, I work with 48 winemakers. Um, and that in itself is, is pretty interesting and awesome. And you know, I, I, uh, my wife and I were lucky enough to, to l- to, uh, purchase the br- the Brown Ranch from, uh, Saintsbury, 2013. And in 2016, pretty sizeable acreage of 15 acres in Oakville right, uh, uh, between Bonny's Vineyard and, um, Groth. And before I came on the scene, that fruit was going to two homes, two big homes, which is fine. But today, they go to 32 homes. I’m a small vintner, small folks, small folks that get a chance, you know, but I'm also doing it because I, I'm looking to be the best. And it takes, yeah, that usually takes the whole cycle of a vineyard's age to get to a point where you think you kind of know it. And then, we start with new rootstock and maybe some new clones. But land is the land. Terroir is the terroir.
Oscar Renteria:
That is the consistency of how one can be good such as yourselves, right? I mean, you know the land. You know its tendencies. And you know, but that, that, there's more to the, to it than that. And you know an adversity what you do in 2011. What do you differently in-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Oscar Renteria:
... What are you going to do to justi- predict, so, yeah. I, you know, I, I know what you're saying but man, honing in on your skills for the l- for the length of our lives, your life, is still going to be challenging. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Man, you've got a lot.
Oscar Renteria:
It's still challenging. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
8,000 tons. How many, how many acres do you guys manage?
Oscar Renteria:
20, uh, 20, about 2100.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Oscar Renteria:
Almost 2200. Almost 2200 but we'll do small sites. We do, you know. We-
Doug Shafer:
Do you-
Oscar Renteria:
... The whole Four Seasons and the Montage.
Doug Shafer:
... Got-
Oscar Renteria:
We do resort groups.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. You got, you do resort groups. You do wineries. You do a lot of independent growers also?
Oscar Renteria:
I do. A third of our, a third of our management, uh, is for independent growers. Two thirds for wineries and a third for the, the growers. And there was a time when I wouldn't take on smaller than 20, 25 acres. And I, I sta- and, and about eight years ago, I said to myself. "You know, if I really want to, if I really want to do, do, you know, make a, make a mark in this valley and help others, I got to start thinking about smaller properties."
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Oscar Renteria:
So now, we're, we're a point where we, we can, um, you know, we can select who we work with. Um, and it's not bec- not to be pompous but at the end of the day, I just want to work with people that, that like me and people that I like. That I, that I like. That we get along.
Doug Shafer:
Well, you have to be wise-
Oscar Renteria:
It sounds easy. (laughing)
Doug Shafer:
... I was going to say.
Oscar Renteria:
Sounds easy.
Doug Shafer:
I was going to say you're talking about 40 winemakers and you're throwing how many growers on top of that. That's probably-
Oscar Renteria:
Oh, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... A ha- how many clients? 100 clients? I mean, you've got to get along with everybody. That's-
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... That's a, that's a cha- and it, just, and these are-
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... And these are like, not like, uh, A and B, black and white decisions. These are like, where else should we water it again? Or not? Gee, you think it's going to get hot or not? Gee, I think we should-
Oscar Renteria:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
... Do this. No. I think we should prune it this way. I, every decision, oh, man. If you don't get along, wow. I-
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah. You got to have support.
Doug Shafer:
... I got a headache-
Oscar Renteria:
It's crazy.
Doug Shafer:
... Just thinking about that. (laughing)
Oscar Renteria:
But you know, it's those partnerships. Right? It's the people. It's where we live. It's where you see them. It's, you see their kids. You, you, uh, you live together. Um, it's, it's really interesting. Because I'm also, I've also, at my age, at 52, the ripe age of 52. (laughs) I have seen and, uh, um, you know, succession that works in succession that doesn't work. And, and, you know, it really starts with generation and in, and the, their relationships and, and how they earn it. You know? We try to do the best we can. I certainly, um, am just, I'm happy I got really good relationships in the valley with folks.
Oscar Renteria:
But you, you know, that started with my father. It started with my mother. It's with my family. And what I care most about is the community. And most, most of that community would be when it comes to farmworkers and their families.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Oscar Renteria:
That's what we're really passionate about. And, you know, and, and the other thing is that, um, I'm also, uh, a client. I grow grapes for our label. My wife and I own a, a, a small label called Tres Perlas, which is a, it means three pearls in Spanish. And it's for-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Tell me. Yeah. Tell me about that one. So, it's in-
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... Honor of your daughters? And?
Oscar Renteria:
Yup. Three genera- three generations, three daughters.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Oscar Renteria:
Um, and all, three generations that we're here. The vineyard that we have in Oakville is called 360 because my father landed in Rutherford when he first came here and my mom in Yountville. Well, Oakville's right in the middle and it really completes that circle really of our story. And to, to be in the epicenter of the valley. You know, we grow grapes in all the appellations but it's nice to have that Oakville and really have our own property also in the, in Carneros. So we make less than a thousand cases or, our wines are club member only. Um, but you're not going to find them in a store.
Oscar Renteria:
Um, or, or on a restaurant. But, uh, and we've just been really fortunate that, you know, we, we network with people around the valley who, who help us and promote us. Because we don't have a place. You got to, I believe in what we do. And, um, and s- kind of buy without, buy without tasting the wines in many cases. And so, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Oscar Renteria:
... We, I, I've never, you know, I didn't know about this market. 200 bucks a bottle. 225 and 400. Thank you, Andy Beckstoffer and the Becksto- Beckstoffer Vineyard To Kolan vineyard because we, we've produced a few, few wines from that property. But that's what I do. I'm making the very best. I promised my wife four years ago that if I didn't make money by year five, that I would give it up. Make 50 cases of expensive wine to s- to give away. And that was the deal. (laughing)
Doug Shafer:
So-
Oscar Renteria:
So far so good.
Doug Shafer:
... Good news. So, well, welcome to the wine making world. What did you think of that? Kind of crazy? You want to-
Oscar Renteria:
It's kind of cra-
Doug Shafer:
... You wanted to get big?
Oscar Renteria:
... No.
Doug Shafer:
Or increase production? Come on.
Oscar Renteria:
No. No. No, no, no. Thank you. I'm, I'm f- for the first time, I'm making money-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
... In the wine business. No way.
Doug Shafer:
Come on.
Oscar Renteria:
And you know what? I got-
Doug Shafer:
Distribute it for 50 states. Get on the plane with me. Come on, baby. You can do it.
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, when I ha- I'd, I, you know, my wife and I first made our wines in '97 and 2013, she said, "You know, you've been losing your butt on this. And you still want to do this." Now, you're trading time with your kids and your time. And I said, "You're right. I quit." Forget it.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Oscar Renteria:
But, but can I make a couple of small really high end, you know, get the very best stuff I can find and pedigree of fruits? Like, "Yeah. Try that. You got five years." (laughing)
Doug Shafer:
She's-
Oscar Renteria:
That's-
Doug Shafer:
... Lovely but she's tough as nails. God, I love that girl.
Oscar Renteria:
Well, oh, wow, you know. And she, she, she, um, graduated with a, a degree in finance and a m- and a minor in economics. So, she's smart.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Oscar Renteria:
And she, yeah. She's been very tolerant and very patient of me. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I'm with you. You mentioned, uh, quickly, your g- you're involved with, uh, the farm workers, local Napa Valley Farm Worker Foundation. That's a big part of your life. Right?
Oscar Renteria:
It is. Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
Tell me. Tell me about that.
Oscar Renteria:
You know, when I was, like I said, it goes back really to the first time I was really exposed and introduced to the needs in the valley. And I saw them but really, who could help? And it's, again, it started with your father at Clinic Ole. And then from there, even, um, working, uh, as a, I was on the Board of Trustee at Justin-Siena High School. My responsibility there was to try to, try to, um, bring in, um, from feeder schools Latinos on scholarship rides to Justin-Siena High School. I was on the board of the Napa Valley Community Foundation for a few years.
Oscar Renteria:
Clinic Ole's board for a few years. Um, and then, Farm Worker Foundation. I really have settled to that. Like I, I've, I've, removed myself from several boards to, you know, to focus on a, a few. Um, and that was, uh, Blue Oak School.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Oscar Renteria:
I served there for six years. And, and then, um, here most recently and currently, my pride is really the, uh, the Farm Worker, uh, Napa Valley Farm Workers Foundation. That to me is, it's, it's huge and I love it.
Doug Shafer:
Tell me more about the foundation. What, what do you guys, what do you guys do? What are you involved with?
Oscar Renteria:
So, it started, you know, that, really what it does is that it, uh, provides, um, educational, uh, programs for farm workers and a tremendous amount of other things for, um, for their families. So we have, uh, like our Dia De La Familia where we educate folks. Obviously, we were linked to the Napa Valley Grape Growers but became such an entity in itself and the need that, you know, our, uh, for example, we have a 16-week, we have nine different kinds of courses for a 16-week l- English literacy program.
Oscar Renteria:
So if you attend that, um, many of the growers here, um, help their employees who want to learn the l- the language, the English language. But there's, and it's got all the specialized tra- all the specialized training. And really, in Napa here, the specialized training is pretty remarkable. Right? If you want to know a trade and leadership skills, so we have a gamut of things that we offer for, uh, for the growers.
Oscar Renteria:
And for the Farm Worker Foundations for, and for their families, I mean, right now, COVID-19, we have funded specific endeavors and partner up, partnered up for, you know, um, mobile testing for COVID-19 for our farm workers. But educating and staying on top, it's pretty hard. You know, there's over 50 vineyard management companies let alone how many, you know, hundreds of growers there are.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Oscar Renteria:
To have a resource like that, it's really taking care of farm worker, the, the farm workers' issues. And this really be- this is a baby that was born by the Napa Valley Grape Growers, uh, nine, 10 years ago when they had a fund raiser for Fund A Need. And we can raise some money, that was $20,000 that was 10 years ago.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Oscar Renteria:
Last year was, um, you know, a, over $1 million.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Oscar Renteria:
And the whole f- fund raiser was over, sorry, over $2 million. So, people give with their hearts here. Especially, especially when it comes to the farm workers. You know, Doug, I was going to tell you that, uh, when, when I think about the story of the f- the forefathers in this, in this, um, in this valley, Robert Mondavi was, was one that was really significant, too. One that you touched on earlier was like the advances of viticulture for us and, you know, and this progression and how, you know, and, and the evolution of Napa Valley.
Oscar Renteria:
Robert Mondavi did a tremendous amount of things when we, we get in, we got into phylloxera and we got eaten by phylloxera here. And then, we rotate, we, uh, and started replanting with root stock uh, to, um, Robert Mondavi planted all the r- all the different root stocks on different, um, on, on the different, um, trellis systems, different kinds of pruning systems. And how they fend it and the berry is the measure. He spent so much money on R&D. It was ridiculous. And you know what he did? He opened that door for that research and those findings-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Oscar Renteria:
... To ev- everybody.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Oscar Renteria:
People don't re- people don't remember that. So a lot of the decisions that we made back then were based on his, uh, trial and errors. And-
Doug Shafer:
No. I, I tell the story and-
Oscar Renteria:
... Crazy.
Doug Shafer:
... I could, I remember calling up Brad Warner and saying, "Can I pick your brain for two hours?" And he was the cellar master. And he-
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... He sat down and told me, he answered every question I had. No, you know.
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It was great.
Oscar Renteria:
Crazy. And you remember his birthday, he had, um, I think it was his 80th birthday. It might have been his 75th, I remember. But that was the first time that made such a huge impression. Because I remember the folks that were planning that. We were growers from Mondavi. Um, so we were, you know, we tied in and we, we could hear. And I, I remember going to his party. And I remember the Rothchilds because he had like, his favorite 20 restaurants all over the world that had booths. And that was, who's who people. I don't know who they were.
Oscar Renteria:
But I was told they were who's whose. Stars and celebrities and such and chefs and stuff. Uh, but it, throughout that crowd, there were field workers there.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Oscar Renteria:
And I, when I walked in, I was taken aback. And, and I later found out that he changed the date of this because he, and also because he wanted to have all of his employees show up. Not just, um, non farm workers but-
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.
Oscar Renteria:
... All his farm workers. You got to give it up to a guy that to me, that ma- that meant a lot. That meant a lot.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. He was a great guy. I mean, who-
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... Got, uh, we have big shoes to fill, you and I.
Oscar Renteria:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Doug Shafer:
And all the ones following us. So, off we go.
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah. No, for sure. For sure. But the Napa Valley Farm Workers Foundation and what they do is, is awesome. My wife and I, sorry that, uh, the Truchards, John and Michele Truchard and my wife and I are the co-chairs of STOMP, which it, it, which will be at the end of August here on the 28th. (laughs) Little plug.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Oscar Renteria:
For, uh, and we've got our Fund A Need that I'll be presenting in the video and it's always a tearjerker.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Oscar Renteria:
Um, but it's an oper- opportunity for all of us to, to stand up and, and, you know, and, uh, and, uh, show that we care and do the right thing.
Doug Shafer:
Dynamite.
Doug Shafer:
And if people want to find your wine, Tres Perlas, Perlas, how would they find that?
Oscar Renteria:
Yeah. Yeah. Tresperlaswines.com. Tresperlas.com. T-R-E-S P-E-R-L-A-S. I say, I spelled it out for you, Doug because I know that Spanish was not your first language.
Doug Shafer:
So bad.
Oscar Renteria:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You know something. I, you know, you are lucky you're not here right now.
Oscar Renteria:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I'm going after you. Tres Perlas. I could never roll my R's.
Oscar Renteria:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
That's why I got a B in Spanish.
Oscar Renteria:
Not too bad. Not bad. Me, too.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. (laughing) Me, too. (laughing) Oscar Renteria, thank you so much for taking this time. I know that harvest is just starting. So, I do appreciate it because I know you're busy chasing grapes and forklifts and tractors and light stands and all that stuff.
Oscar Renteria:
Thank you big time, brother. I appreciate it. You take care.
Doug Shafer:
I will.
Oscar Renteria:
Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
I'll see you on the road. Be good.
Oscar Renteria:
All right, man. Okay. Take care. Bye-bye.
Doug Shafer:
Thanks. Bye.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Um, have a great guy on today. Long time friend, long time winemaker, Tom Rinaldi. Tom's been founding winemaker at at least three wineries that I know about: Round Hill, Duckhorn, Provenance. And Tom, good to s- good to have you on. I can't remember when we first met. Do you? Where did we first meet? Any idea?
Tom Rinaldi:
Oh boy. I'd bet that was around the t- about 1978 is my bet. I was getting grapes in the neighborhood and, uh, uh, your dad was a buddy. I d- I v- maybe the Vintner's Association. Maybe a, at Calistoga tastings.
Doug Shafer:
Y- yeah, the old-
Tom Rinaldi:
Things like that.
Doug Shafer:
The old wine tech thing up at the Calistoga. The hanging beef dinners, remember those?
Tom Rinaldi:
Exactly. Oh boy.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) And, and it might've been-
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah, that goes back to the '70s.
Doug Shafer:
It does. And I think, well, we have something in common, because I wasn't around full time till early '80s, but dad's first Cab was a '78 and Duckhorn's first Merlot was a '78, so I remember meeting Dan through, Dan Duckhorn through my dad. That's probably where I met up with you at some point, back in there, those days, anyway. But, uh...
Tom Rinaldi:
Sure.
Doug Shafer:
Lot- long time ago.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah, th- I spent the first 22 vintages there.
Doug Shafer:
Ah.
Tom Rinaldi:
Uh-huh. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I know you did. I know you did. But before you-
Tom Rinaldi:
Good, good memories.
Doug Shafer:
Before you went to Duckhorn, let's go all the way back. Before Napa, before winemaking, you know, where were you born? Where'd you grow up? Talk to me.
Tom Rinaldi:
I was born in San Francisco and my dad and his mom were born in San Francisco. Uh, my mother was conceived in Sicily and born in Brooklyn, but, uh, she managed to meet up with my dad and had three, uh, three sons. Uh, I was the middle. In fact, uh, my birthday's next Saturday. Uh, f- 71.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. No way.
Tom Rinaldi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Way.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
But, um, I, I went to St. Ignatius High School, very proud of that. Played football. We won the city championship, uh, that year.
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Tom Rinaldi:
And then, uh, at 17 I signed up for the military and went in the Navy. And, uh, that was that. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So-
Tom Rinaldi:
We got a good idea.
Doug Shafer:
Like, if it's, growing up in San Francisco, that must've been, that was, god, was that with Haight Ashbury and all that, and the hippies and the flower children and all that jazz? Was that going on?
Tom Rinaldi:
Exactly.
Doug Shafer:
Oh. (laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
I got caught right in the middle of it. I got to meet Janice Joplin. I, I, I had a long conversation with Jerry Garcia. I was there, man. I mean, I s- I was there for their first concert, both Big B- d- or, and the Holding Company, with Janice Joplin, and, uh, the Vandals becoming, uh, the Grateful Dead.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
And they were right down the street, you know? And it was pretty cool to be, uh, part of that.
Doug Shafer:
You were, like, what, high school?
Tom Rinaldi:
Yes. Yes.
Doug Shafer:
God. I can't even believe what that was like. The, so, you're, th- you're in the middle of that whole scene, the summer of love and all that, and then, but meanwhile you got the Giants and the Niners. Were you, were you tracking all that? 'Cause I know you're...
Tom Rinaldi:
Oh, sure.
Doug Shafer:
...a big Giants fan. Yeah. Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. And my mom, since she was born in Brooklyn, was a Dodgers fan.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
And I mean, we were watching Sandy Koufax throwing a no hitter against the Giants, we were on our hands and knees begging, "Please, somebody get a hit."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
And she is just, "Yahoo!" Dodger blue for...
Doug Shafer:
Dodger-
Tom Rinaldi:
...her last breath. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's, that's amazing. Um...
Tom Rinaldi:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
What a scene. So, growing up, wine in the house?
Tom Rinaldi:
Yes. I wasn't much of a wine guy, I tell you the truth. Um, but when I turned 16, I had a motorcycle. I was 15 and a half. And I came up to the Napa Valley at 16 years old. And as long as I took the tour, I could do a tasting.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
And I did the tasting, I could buy some. And so I'd buy some Green Hungarian for, you know, two dollars and share it with my gal friend who was sitting on the back of the bike.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
And, uh, so I kinda, I don't know. It wasn't really showing off, but it was kinda cool that, uh, there was no carding or anything getting weird about, uh, some kid buying some-
Doug Shafer:
You- (laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
Some wine to enjoy.
Doug Shafer:
Wait, let me get this straight. You're 16, and the drinking age is 21. Maybe it was 18, it was that for a while.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah, it was 21.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, but they're serving you no problem. (laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
No problem. I never had a problem. W- it was the darnedest thing. Typically it was summertime...
Doug Shafer:
Oh. So, where - what, what wineries did you go to? What, where was, what was going on back then?
Tom Rinaldi:
Uh, BV was one of my favorite. In fact, uh, I bought some, uh, Georges de Latour way back in, uh, oh boy. That would've been, uh, the '63 vintage.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
And, uh, that was, uh, $3 a bottle, and then they jacked up the price to $3.50 with the '64 coming out.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
And that was definitely high end. And, um, those I kept in my parents' cellar. The rest of them, I, I would party with. And I'd go to Martini. And, uh, Krug. And across the street was, uh, Christian Brothers.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
Back then, it was, uh, sparkling wine, and that was pretty exciting.
Doug Shafer:
And that's the, uh, that's currently the, what, the, the home of the CIA. Greystone.
Tom Rinaldi:
Correct.
Doug Shafer:
So, so, all right. So you graduated from high school and you joined the Navy. What, what's that story?
Tom Rinaldi:
Well, um, needed to get away.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
Tell you the truth, uh, the f- my friends were starting to get into more and more hard drugs, and, uh, I didn't really wanna get caught up in that.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
Uh, I, I j- and I didn't wanna, really wasn't ready for college and I wasn't ready for a job, so, uh, it just seemed like a good alternative. I was in good shape, and, uh, studied all the test and just really, you know, cut off all my hair and, (laughs) you know, went in. I, I had 120 days to basically, uh, I was in the reserves and, uh, just, uh, before I had to report to boot camp. And I was excited, to tell you the truth. And I, I d- I aced all the tests they gave me and, and was in great shape. So I really didn't have to do much of anything. I, I was just, got promoted. And, um, um, I went back to school back in Millington, Tennessee. M- uh, Memphis ... area. And I l- had a, a little apartment in Memphis. I was there for, uh, nine, eight months. And then I, I went out to, uh, San Diego, to Coronado, tried to become a SEAL. That didn't work out. I got a i- infection in my foot. So, uh, ended up getting drummed out, and tried to get back, and it would've been week one instead of week eight, and so forget it.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
Um, I became an air crewman based in Guam, uh, in an EC-121 Super Constellation. We used to be typhoon trackers. We'd fly right into the eye of the typhoon and then find out where in the world we were by looking at the north star with a sextant.
Doug Shafer:
You gotta be k-
Tom Rinaldi:
And, uh-
Doug Shafer:
In a plane?
Tom Rinaldi:
Reading off the coordinates.
Doug Shafer:
You gotta be kidding me. You f-
Tom Rinaldi:
Nope.
Doug Shafer:
You guys were flying into typhoons?
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah, this was before satellite, so that was the, the way to figure out where we were. We'd go in at night, and if it wasn't 100 knots, that didn't count. It was a...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
...tropical depression. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
And I did 30 penetrations. A real live typhoon.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Can y- uh, y-, uh, I've heard stories about this. I mean, obviously you've lived it 30 times. It just seems like that's a really kind of dangerous, really dangerous thing to do. Or is it not that dangerous, just really hairy?
Tom Rinaldi:
It was hairy.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
I'll say that much. Uh, but the one cool thing is I never, ever, ever got airsick.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
And I was totally an exception to the rule, 'cause somebody would start and then it would just start moving around and you just, just that aroma was enough for a lot of people.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
How many, how many guys on the v- people on the plane?
Tom Rinaldi:
We had two crews of-
Doug Shafer:
Just two crews. Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
So there were 24 of us. And so, you would, it, we would fly 18 hours at a time. So it would be nine hours on and nine hours off, or four and a half on, nine hours off, four and a half on. We had a full kitchen, um, bunks. Uh, b- it was living pretty large.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, 'cause these are these big, these are these big, big planes, right?
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
The s- the su- okay, got it.
Tom Rinaldi:
Four engine with tip tanks, and like I say, 18 hours of fuel. So they would kind of pervert us in Vietnam. We'd go flying up to Hai Phong, Hain- Hainan, uh, back and forth there, and monitor all the MiGs and surface to air missiles and boat traffic and you name it. We were, that was our, one of our big responsibilities. I'd go there at least once a month. And typically the end of the month, and then the beginning of the next, and that way we got, uh, hazardous duty pay and, uh, tax free and all this other nice... (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
All the nice, uh...
Tom Rinaldi:
Accoutrements.
Doug Shafer:
But basic- so the Vietnam war was in full swing, but you're a, you were Navy, Navy Air, so you were -
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. But I did spent time on the ground, uh, and in the helicopters.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Tom Rinaldi:
And got spun off to the 101st Airborne. So it was, uh, it wasn't all just flying around. It was, it would be in the water on the ground, you name it. I had a top secret clearance, so I got a map to, to monitor all the, you know, the, the damage in our, on our perimeter. And one thing was, uh, al- they always gave me that lighter, to, you know... (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Tom Rinaldi:
Anything goes wrong, light the map.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.
Tom Rinaldi:
You know, and then you could do whatever you wanna do about, su- you know, s- defending yourself.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
And I'd typically have a m- a marine on either side of me, and they were crackerjack shots. In fact, one time they nailed a guy right up in the tree. I never saw him alive, but I got his AK47 with a scope on it, and everybody thought I was bad.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
I carried that thing wherever I went.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.
Tom Rinaldi:
And, uh, it w- it was really a, a mean looking machine, I'll say that much. Had a wooden stock with, uh, Vietnamese writing on it, and the works.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Tom Rinaldi:
So, we went back last year, my wife and I, for our...
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
...50th anniversary. My first deployment.
Doug Shafer:
Tell me about that. You and Beverly went back, so, 50, so it'd been what, 50 years?
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. Almost to the day.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Tom Rinaldi:
April of, uh, 1969 was my first, uh, my first deployment, and, uh, much better reception this time.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
How was that trip? Because I know, I read a couple articles.
Tom Rinaldi:
It w-
Doug Shafer:
Was it great?
Tom Rinaldi:
It was wonderful. I'm really glad we did it last year instead of this year. I, it would've been just impossible.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
Uh, but, um, it worked out beautifully. Uh, we took the river cruise up to, uh, into Cambodia, and visited temples and people's homes and the works. It was just, it was phenomenal.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm. Nice. Yeah, I'm glad you guys got to do that. You kinda-
Tom Rinaldi:
Me too. I, it was a g- a good, uh, you know, memory, um, cleanser, if you will. C- uh, I never had post-traumatic stress disorder. It was the darnedest thing. All my, all my friends got it.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Tom Rinaldi:
But I never had a touch of it. But, uh, I, I had memories, uh, real clear memories of the different places, Da Nang, Chu Lai, Phu Bai, Hue. And, uh, I had to visit each and every one of those and, you know, just kinda wash up the memories. And it's so j- so different 50 years later, it's, it's, it's laughable.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Why, how come you think you never had the post traumatic thing?
Tom Rinaldi:
That is, uh, there's a button or a trigger that snaps, and, uh, I just don't think I have that button or trigger.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Tom Rinaldi:
It, that's all there is to it. I, I've talked to psychologists and different people about it, and, um, th- there's, j- just one of those things.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Well, I'm glad you don't.
Tom Rinaldi:
I'm very fortunate in...
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
...that regard, you know, 'cause some of, I, I tried to get a c- few of my friends to come back with me, and there's no way. You know, they're...
Doug Shafer:
Interesting.
Tom Rinaldi:
...as I say, they, they dream it all the time, that they're still there.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.
Tom Rinaldi:
But it was thank you to the GI Bill that I got to, you know, pursue my, my, my career, if you will. I was going to either be a medical doctor or a veterinarian. Took all the prerequisite classes, and I realized that taking wine classes were, uh, as good as anything, uh, to become a, a medical or a veterinary doctor. So, uh, I met a lot of miserable doctors and a lot of happy winemakers...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
...and decided not to even apply for, for med school. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause, uh, yeah, I was doing some research on you. So you went to Santa Rosa JC after the navy for a couple years. And then, uh-
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And then moved up to Davis.
Tom Rinaldi:
That was a real education, too. I, I had some great classes at, at Santa Rosa JC, and got great s- grades, and so I got to choose whatever college I wanted to go to, and Davis was number one.
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Tom Rinaldi:
And, uh, yeah. I had Maynard Amerine's last class. And, uh, Ann Noble's first class. Uh, they were kind of teaming up, if you will.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
So, it was, that was wonderful. Ralph Kunkee. Um, these-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I remember Kun-
Tom Rinaldi:
Uh, Cornelius Oh. All these guys just are historical figures in my mind.
Doug Shafer:
I remember Kunkee. I had Kunkee when I was there. But those other guys...
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
...had retired. He was great.
Tom Rinaldi:
We used to go out and, uh, have a beer across the street, the Graduate. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
I thought that was cool.
Doug Shafer:
The Graduate. I remember that place.
Tom Rinaldi:
Sure.
Doug Shafer:
Was that, uh, dollar pitcher night for beer on Thursday nights, right?
Tom Rinaldi:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
What, was that it, what it was? I remember that.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah, what could possibly go wrong?
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Yeah, everything.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. In fact, I have a degree in malting and brewing with Dr. Lewis.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
Uh, as well as oenology, viniculture.
Doug Shafer:
Who, who else was at, uh, in the oenology program with you? Some of your classmates?
Tom Rinaldi:
Mike Martini.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
Uh, Bob Levy. Uh, Cathy Corison. Uh, I know I'm gonna leave somebody out. Uh, but one of the Wente boys, and...
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
Just, it was a phenomenal... Uh, Tim Mondavi. Yeah. We had a s- uh, spectacular class. I mean, they all knew exactly where they were gonna go work, you know? I-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
I wasn't sure. But I was very fortunate. I, I was one of, uh, about 20 applying for the, the job at Freemark Abbey. They were hiring a Davis graduate every year. And, um, I was one of the final two. And I'll say Rob Davis was, uh, the other one. And he-
Doug Shafer:
Rob Davis who went to Jordan Winery for a long time?
Tom Rinaldi:
Correct.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
Right back then, too, back in '76. When I was applying at, uh, Freemark Abbey. M- and so, he had, uh, interviewed with Jerry Luper first, and, um, on his way out, he's going, "Good luck. You'll need it."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
And, uh, so I'm interviewing with Jerry. Fortunately, I, I, I was working in the lab at Davis, and s- so I knew all the, the, the programs. Uh, h- how to, you know, check SO2 or volatile acidity or you name it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Run a TA. Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
So, I, he couldn't trip me up on any of that stuff. So about 4:30 or quarter to 5, he's going, "Well, it's qu- you know, 4:30. Um, what are you gonna do the rest of the day?" I said, "Uh, I'm gonna go downtown to get a beer." He said, "Oh, c- may I join you?" And I said, "Sure!"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
So we went downtown in St. Helena and got a beer. I guess at Ray's.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, Ray's!
Tom Rinaldi:
And, uh, y- (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I remember Ray's.
Tom Rinaldi:
And he said, "That's a great answer. You know, all these guys'll say, 'Oh, I got a couple of wines I gotta blend together.' You don't do blending after 4:00 in the afternoon! You know? It's time for a beer, you know?" And we came up with the term, "It takes a lot of good beer to make a great wine."And, uh, that basically got me the job, I think. I don't know. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
'Cause Jerry Luper, now, at that time, this is, you know, a few years before I got into the whole game, but, he was, uh, he, he was, wasn't he g- he was quite the famous winemaker at that time, right? So, it was-
Tom Rinaldi:
Indeed, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So-
Tom Rinaldi:
And, uh, he went on to, uh, Europe after, uh, you know, being out in Carneros for a while doing his own thing. Uh, moved out to Europe. And he, I really didn't get a full season with him. He left, uh...
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Tom Rinaldi:
...before the season really got into f- bloom. And, uh, Larry Langbehn took over. And h- Larry was a Davis graduate the year before, and I thought, "Hmm. If I play my cards right, maybe I could become a winemaker here, you know?" (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
That's right. That's-
Tom Rinaldi:
But-
Doug Shafer:
That's the era where...
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
...people were becoming winemakers, like, instantly out of Davis.
Tom Rinaldi:
Something like that, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Almost.
Tom Rinaldi:
Uh, I g- I got, uh, they promoted me over to, well, uh, p- transferred me over to Rutherford Hill that they'd just acquired.
Tom Rinaldi:
Oh, I was very frustrated trying to work there in the cellar. And so, after a week, you know, I went to, uh, Phil Baxter, the winemaker, and said, you know, "Hey, I quit." H- he said, "You only been here a week!"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
I said, "No, this is crazy. I didn't go to Davis to, to, to do this. This is bucket..."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
"...uh, bucket throwing." And, uh, so he said, "How'd you like to work in the lab?" I said, "Hmm. Okay." And that was the last I ever punched a clock. It was a full time job. I worked in the lab, basically doctoring wines and figuring out what's wrong with this one, well, how are we gonna make it better? And, uh, it was a real education, if you will.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Tom Rinaldi:
So that was a g- great opportunity.
Doug Shafer:
So-
Tom Rinaldi:
And he introduced me to Ernie Van Asperen, who was...
Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
...just starting up Round Hill Winery.
Doug Shafer:
All right. I'm gonna st- I, I-
Tom Rinaldi:
So I, I was his original.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause I wanna get to Ernie, I wanna stop you for a second. So you did an internship at Freemark for what, a year or so, right?
Tom Rinaldi:
Just a, the one season.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. One season.
Tom Rinaldi:
Uh, it was almost a year. It went from, uh, June until bottling time in April, May. So, yeah. About a year.
Doug Shafer:
Gotta ask you a question. Was Nico there? Nico Shoch?
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. Sure was.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Nico Shoch, who was, 'cause I remember he worked at Freemark under Larry Langbehn.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yes. Yep.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause Nico, my dad hired Nico as winemaker here at Shafer, when he f- uh, I think he hired him for the 1980 vintage. So, Nico was here...
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
...for about three years, and then he moved on and I came in in '83. But, uh, great guy. And, um...
Tom Rinaldi:
I agree.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. G- God, boy, strong as an ox, too. Good winemaker.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Um, and so, from there you went... So, Freemark and Rutherford Hill were connected. I remember that. Same ownership. So, they moved you over to Free- to Rutherford Hill with Phil Baxter, he was the winemaker.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, uh, here's another question for you. Were you there during the '79 harvest?
Tom Rinaldi:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) 'Cause the seventy-
Tom Rinaldi:
Disaster.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. That was, I can't, well, I wasn't here. I can't remember the details. But I do know that dad picked his grapes really late and they were super, super ripe.
Tom Rinaldi:
Y- you know-
Doug Shafer:
Uh, I, I-
Tom Rinaldi:
I was, by then, I, that was my second year at Duckhorn, so...
Doug Shafer:
Oh, you were gone. Oh.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
See, y- .
Tom Rinaldi:
'Cause, uh, '78... One sec. I had just...
Doug Shafer:
Well, that's right. That's right.
Tom Rinaldi:
...kinda mixing them up.
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Tom Rinaldi:
'Cause, uh, yeah. I would've been there for just, uh, '76, '77 harvest. Uh...
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Okay. 'Cause-
Tom Rinaldi:
And then, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Sorry about that.
Tom Rinaldi:
Uh, '78, '79. '79, we didn't make a Cabernet that year.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
Basically just gave it up. Uh, I remember being in a vineyard with my, my wife, Beverly, uh, she was my girlfriend at the time, but, um, we were, we were watching them pick these, uh, grapes out in, uh, uh, Georges three in Rutherford, and they're pouring them into this gondola and you couldn't see the grapes. There was just so much liquid.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
We followed them to BV, and they tipped the gondola into the, this trough, and the trough just bled out. They let all the liquid go.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Tom Rinaldi:
And then they j- saved the grapes and put them into a destemmer and up into into the tanks. And it was the darnedest thing, watching that. And so, we, we said, now, I got the day off today, so let's, let's go downtown, get some, you know, steaks and barbecue them. And we go to Safeway, and we're crunching along the aisles. It's the darnedest thing. We're, we're crunching along and it's bags and bags of sugar these guys are carrying.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
A- and I asked the manager, I said, "What's going on with the sugar?" And he says, "I guess they're drinking a lot of coffee this year." You know -
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
"Oh, sure."
Doug Shafer:
So I wasn't around for the '79 harvest. So you're telling me it was probably a lot of rain and couldn't get ripeness, is what you're telling me.
Tom Rinaldi:
Exactly correct.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
It was the, the only disaster vintage I can recall in, you know, 45 vintages. So, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Interesting. And here's my, what dad told me about our '79, 'cause we didn't have a winery. He was custom crushing, he custom crushed it up at, uh, Rutherford Hill with Phil Baxter. And-
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I, this was Hillside stuff. Early years for dad. And our Hillside stuff comes in early, and for some reason, it must have been b- way before the rains, 'cause he couldn't, he couldn't get pickers and it was a bit of a hot spell, and he brought the stuff in at 25 or 26 bricks. And Baxter goes, "Well, we're gonna have to take care of that." So, the opposite situation happened.
Tom Rinaldi:
Wow.
Doug Shafer:
Instead of add- instead of adding sugar, they add a little, little, uh, H2O to get that sugar back down. So, interesting.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause I didn't, I didn't know the rest of the harvest was such a d- was such a mess with the rain and cold weather.
Tom Rinaldi:
It was. We did bring in a little bit of Cabernet from up on Howell Mountain, uh, but most, most of what we brought in was Merlot, and that was, uh, uh, spared the w- the weather. It was, you know, like, y- yeah. Like, y- you heard, it was a heat s- heat wave before...
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
...the rain came. And when the rain came, it, it really didn't let up. It, it just went all the way through the rest of the time. So, the people who were picking then, th- they tried everything. They tried helicopters with, uh, w- leaf blowers, you name it, to try to just get rid of the water. Uh, it, it was just basically a disaster.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man. And you mentioned Beverly. So you guys were dating? How'd you guys meet?
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. We met in Calistoga, believe it or not. I was sitting down with Ben Falk and Jon Axehelm and having a, we had two or three bottles of wine open at the table, and, uh, we're tasting them. And, uh, and she was walking by and they're tapping on the window. They knew her.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
So she came in, uh, in our old spot, you know, the Calistoga Inn. And sat down and drinking some wine with us, you know? And all of a sudden we're playing footsie under the table...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
...and I got her phone number, and... But we never did hook up. It was the darnedest thing. We met again in, uh, Las Vegas for one of those oenology conventions, and, uh, put two and two together. Eventually I got ahold of her and we went out on a date to the Cameo to see the Godfather, part one and two.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
And missed part of the beginning, so we had to go back again (laughs) the next day. I had a motorcycle back then, uh, so that was my, my transportation. And, hmm, pretty much got married in nineteen-sev- uh, b- b- '81.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
Mother's Day.
Doug Shafer:
Beautiful.
Tom Rinaldi:
And, um, yeah. That was the last of the motorcycle days. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) So, um, and I, I interrupted you earlier. You mentioned, uh, Ernie Van Asperen. So, you met, you met him when you were up at, uh, Rutherford Hill?
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. We actually had lunch together, d- Phil wanted m- to introduce, uh, Ernie to me, and, um, Ernie had a, uh, a wine in a decanter.
Doug Shafer:
Uh-huh.
Tom Rinaldi:
And he's pouring it for me, and he, he wants to know, "What do you think of this wine?" And I g- I'm smelling it, and just going, "I think I know this wine. Uh, is this Silver Oak?" And he's g- he's looking around like, like I got a tip from the maitre d' or something, you know?
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
And he goes, "Yeah." H- I go, "Yeah, I think this is '70, '72, uh, '72, uh, Silver Oak." Uh, 'cause we had made that at fr- Franciscan, and I had put in a spell there.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
And, uh, tasted out of the barrel a few times. And it had that distinctive bread character.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
So, he was blown away. Uh, I became this palate, if you will.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
And, uh, yeah. There, so, uh, we, we'd go up to, uh, um, Healdsberg and different wineries and I'd get to meet all the rock stars up there, um, and taste through the wines that were available in bulk. And the ones I, I liked, I'd keep close to me, and the ones I didn't like, I'd push away. So it would be, A, E, and F I liked. And so, he would shoo me out of the room, let me go take a tour of the facility while he did a, a negotiation with the winemakers.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Tom Rinaldi:
And, uh, come up with a price, and that's, that was the beginning of Round Hill. We, we did a '74 Cabernet to die for. It was just wonderful. And we were able to sell it for a song, too, and still make money.
Doug Shafer:
So, Round Hill, Ernie Van Asperen started Round Hill, and his other career, that they, I think went on for the whole time, was he had wine stores, right? Um -
Tom Rinaldi:
Yes. Ernie's.
Doug Shafer:
Call, called Ernie's.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And a n- a number of them, as I remember.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. Y- yeah. I got to work in most of them, in fact all of them. Uh, where was one, down in San Bruno, w- uh, Redwood City, up in, uh, uh, San Francisco, and up here, in St. Helena.
Doug Shafer:
That's right. I remember that.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah, right there on Inglewood.
Doug Shafer:
And he, but then, so, when he started Round Hill, he was basically, help me with this one. He was buying bulk wine and bottling it under the Round Hill label, or was he crushing grapes also?
Tom Rinaldi:
No. No grapes.
Doug Shafer:
Interesting.
Tom Rinaldi:
Uh, we would just get bulk. Yeah. In fact, uh, th- it was out at Lodi Lane, um, the, oh god. Marian Green's, um, h- home right next door, and there was a w- a, basically a warehouse, and it w- we, we bottled there.
Doug Shafer:
So he was, like, the first Negociant w- guy, in a way.
Tom Rinaldi:
Correct.
Doug Shafer:
Or one of th-
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
One of the early, for sure.
Doug Shafer:
He's, okay. It was the Round Hi- and so, so you star- at that point, you're working with him. Or you help found that whole winery? Is that what you do?
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Tom Rinaldi:
I was original winemaker, so, um, I'd, I'd make the blending decisions and, uh, you know, he'd come up with basically the quantities, and, um, that was it, that was that. Uh, Charlie Abella was my right hand man. He was a very sharp guy.
Doug Shafer:
I, I was gonna ask you about Charlie, 'cause I remember-
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Dad, Dad and, Dad loved Charlie, and I met him a couple times.
Tom Rinaldi:
He was a great guy.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
Oh my god. He was just wonderful.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah, he was one of my best men at, uh, my wedding. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Um...
Tom Rinaldi:
Along with Bob Levy. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
And I remember, the only time I was at Round Hill, I was, uh, that's where I met Charlie Abella, I met Doug Manning. It was Christmas time. I was home from Davis, and Dad-
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It was, it was the Christmas of '78. So, you weren't there, but, um-
Tom Rinaldi:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Dad had, he was aging a '78 Cab, first wine he made. It was, uh, crushed it at Markham, they made it at Round Hill, 'cause he knew Ernie and Charlie.
Tom Rinaldi:
Sure.
Doug Shafer:
So, it was, like, a custom crush. 1000 cases. So, um, he said, "Well, I'm going up to rack my wine." I'm home from Davis. I said, "Okay." He goes, "Come along." So I'm up there learning how to wash barrels with Charlie Abella and Doug Manning. And then r- um, it was lunch break. We're sitting down having some sandwiches, and these guys pulled some of the, the '78 Cab, the, um, Shafer, a- out of the tank that we were racking to, just to have with lunch. And, and you know, I d- I didn't know if it was good or not. And, um, I remember Doug Manning going, "This is really good." (laughs) So...
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, that was my first, uh, experience with our '78 Cab. And it was like, I didn't know what was going on. I mean, we, you know...
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
...went back to barrels and went back to school. So that was the, the birth of that. How funny.
Tom Rinaldi:
That really put Shafer on the map, too. That, that wine was spectacular. There's no question about it. We, we rated it as flawless at, uh, up there in Calistoga.
Doug Shafer:
Well, thank you. But, uh, speaking of '78, so how did you get from Round Hill to Duckhorn?
Tom Rinaldi:
The darnedest thing. Uh, I, I was good friends with, uh, v- Ric Forman and with Phil Baxter and w- let's see. Someone else who Dan Duckhorn was talking to, saying you, he needed a winemaker, and they all mentioned my name.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Tom Rinaldi:
So, he wanted to, to, to meet with me, and I happened to be going by the winery on my motorcycle, and I pull up, 'cause he's out there working in, uh, some trees. And so, we had a little discussion and, uh, the funniest thing is that he, I said, "Well, you know, I'll, I'll consult for you," he goes, "Consult? Hell! I want somebody to make the wine!" You know? (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
So, okay. So I got the job on the spot. And, uh, that was, uh, June of '78. There really wasn't a facility there. He has just bought a, a press and a couple of tanks and, you know, just trying to make something happen. And we, we bought a, a, a destemmer and, and went from there. I mean, it was a little basket press. I still have a picture of myself and s- you know, kneeling down, taking a, a sample out of the, out of this little press. But, uh well, it was an interesting beginning. Fortunately, it was 1978, and '76 was hot, er, hot, awful, dry drought.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
'77, same thing.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tom Rinaldi:
'78 was a perfect vintage. And then of course '79 was the disas- disaster.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
And, uh, we, fortunately, my, my good friend Ric Forman turned us on to Three Palms. He didn't have to do that by any stretch of the imagination. He was winemaker at Sterling. And we had no intention of making a Merlot. Uh, "Merlot? You know, what?" And so, we brought it in anyway, and it was knockout. Um, and, and I didn't know the rules at the time. I shoulda known.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
But I put in 15 percent Beatty Howell Mountain Cabernet into it.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Tom Rinaldi:
We had a bottle, yeah, and a councilor, you know, our council's going, uh, "So, Tom, what else is in there?" I go, "Well, I got 15 percent Beatty Howell Mountain Cabernet," and he goes, "No, you, come on."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
And I go, "No, seriously." He goes, "No."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
And I, uh, so, he opens up chapter and verse, there it is. 95 percent, same as vintage. Uh oh. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
So, we gotta use up by BATF. Uh, one time only. And, uh, so we got away with it. And thank goodness, 'cause to th- to this day, that wine is still alive and well.
Doug Shafer:
It's a gorgeous wine. It was 15 percent, it was Merlot, or Cab?
Tom Rinaldi:
Cabernet, 15 percent.
Doug Shafer:
But it was a-
Tom Rinaldi:
And the rest of it was Merlot Three Palms.
Doug Shafer:
But it was a different vintage? Or same vintage?
Tom Rinaldi:
Same vintage.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Tom Rinaldi:
If it says Three Palms Vineyard, it, well, it, just like Hillside select-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, it's gotta be 95 percent. That's right.
Tom Rinaldi:
Correct.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Tom Rinaldi:
Whoops.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
So, so Ric Forman, who was winemaker at the time at Sterling, and he was a, he was a stud winemaker in those days. He was the guy, one of the guys. And, um...
Tom Rinaldi:
Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, they were, I remember Sterling had a Three Palms Vineyard Merlot, I think, 'cause...
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And so, he turned you guys onto that. So, I, for some reason I thought D- Dan was crazy about Merlot and really wanted to do it. So that wasn't the case?
Tom Rinaldi:
He became crazy about it, I'll say that much. And he wanted to do it for sure, 'cause he and Ric did get to travel tog- to, to France together.
Doug Shafer:
Okay 'cause it, uh, a lot of folks might not know, Merlot back in late '70s, very few people if anyone made a varietal Merlot. Merlot was used mostly for blending. So I can remember I was working at Lake Spring with Randy Mason. That was '81, '82, and they were starting to make a Merlot, but it was still kinda new. So you guys, you know, were trailblazers, and that first wine, '78 Merlot, was, from Duckhorn, was absolutely amazing. And it had 15 percent Cab. That's good to know. (laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
Whoopsie!
Doug Shafer:
A minute ago.
Tom Rinaldi:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I love it.
Tom Rinaldi:
That make all the difference in the world, too. I think if it were, been 100 percent, uh, Merlot, it would've been a head scratcher. And to this day they don't make 100 percent Merlot out of there. It's, uh, it's got all five varietals growing in the vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
And it's all owned by Duckhorn now.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
I kinda made a little joke a while back to, that I wanted to get some of the grapes, and (laughs) they kinda look at me y- dumbfounded.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
But, um, uh, yeah. That, I made it at Provenance, as a matter of fact, I was c- making a Three Palms Merlot and a Three Palms Cabernet. I had access to the fruit. But then Diageo just chickened out from the prices and they let it go.
Doug Shafer:
How big, how big a vineyard is it? How many acres?
Tom Rinaldi:
80.
Doug Shafer:
80. Okay. I didn't realize...
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
...it was that big. Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
It's all rock, too.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
But there's, fortunately there's water, and, uh, yeah. In fact, uh, to plant it, they were using fire hoses to blast a hole into the rock.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
Um, and then filling it up with sand and, and, and, and real dirt. And, and a, a- and a root stock.
Doug Shafer:
Interesting. Interesting. So...
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, Duckhorn, f- first release was a seventy- I think that was the first release from Duckhorn, it was '78 Merlot.
Tom Rinaldi:
Correct.
Doug Shafer:
Released in '81, probably, thereabouts. And, uh, was that the only wine from Duckhorn in the beginning? Was there Cabernet, too?
Tom Rinaldi:
No. We made a Cabernet as well.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
The Cabernet was, uh, very nice. V- it was, uh, it was from, uh, um, Spottswoode Vineyard. And also, uh, down in your area. I can't remember his name. Dick.
Doug Shafer:
Uh, S- Steltzner. Steltzner.
Tom Rinaldi:
Dick Steltzner. Correct.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tom Rinaldi:
Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
You bet.
Tom Rinaldi:
And, that was, uh, that was fascinating stuff. We only sold it for $10.50, but we went crazy with the Merlot and jacked it all the way up to $12.50.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
S- it was so funny, because there'd be some people who'd say, "Oh, I'm not gonna b- I don't know, my husband would never drink Merlot." I said, "Well, don't tell him it's Merlot." And especially after that Sideways movie came out, um, and, you know, they'd come back and just say, "You're right. He loves it." You know? (laughs) You didn't tell him it was Merlot.
Doug Shafer:
Well, I was gonna ask you about that, because y- you know, you were really on the front lines in the beginning. You know, a t- a totally kind of unknown varietal by itself, Merlot, you know, bursts on the scene, and, you know, kinda meanders around in the '80s. People more familiar with it. And then the '90s, it just goes nuts. Rock star. You know, and then all of a sudden becoming kind of a, you know, a punchline from a, from a movie. I mean, uh...
Tom Rinaldi:
Well, what had happened...
Doug Shafer:
What's your take on that?
Tom Rinaldi:
...was that Merlot was already on the ropes. They were making it down in, uh, M- Monterrey, and Lodi, and...calling it Merlot, and it was Blanc.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
And, uh, it was, really it was bringing the name down. There was just too much of it, and it was growing in the wrong spots. Uh, it needs good drainage. If you don't have good drainage, you don't really have Merlot.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tom Rinaldi:
And so, it was getting kinda beat up as a varietal. M- we fortunately had a good reputation, a good name, and we never just bottled something just to call it Merlot. So, that, that was a crucial part of our success during that, that time where it really was a, kind of a joke, if you will. You couldn't even give the stuff away in Los Angeles.
Tom Rinaldi:
But the, the punchline in there was not supposed to really be, uh, taken seriously. Um, I mean, you wouldn't want that guy Miles to be your, your, uh, your, maitre d'. (laughs) So, he's drinking out of the spit bucket, remember?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
So, um, yeah. So, uh, it, it was not meant to be serious, but it, it was taken seriously. You know? "None of that blanking Merlot." And, uh...
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I, I remember hearing the story that it was l- uh, it was, uh, just a, it was like they were doing 10 or 12 takes and it was the last shot of the night and they were all hungry, so he was just kinda letting loose with that, ripped on, ripped with that line.
Tom Rinaldi:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
And then they c- they took it back in the editing and kept it, which was...
Tom Rinaldi:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
...unfortunate, 'cause it kinda...
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
...hurt sales for a lot of people. But...
Tom Rinaldi:
Ah, it's all right.
Doug Shafer:
...I, I think in the long run it's, it's done good things for Merlot, because, uh, um, all the folks that were making Merlot maybe not as good as it should be kind of, a lot of the Negociant guys went away, stopped making it.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
They started making, they started making Pinot Noir. And, uh, so now Mer- you know, y-
Tom Rinaldi:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
A f- if you see a varietal Merlot out there, chances are it's gonna be pretty darn good, because if it's not, you know, th- it doesn't have a chance to start, it doesn't have to a chance to beg- be- to begin with. So, um, it'll, it's there.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah, I've taken it seriously all my, my career.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
And, uh, you know, we're making a Pellet Estate Merlot, and it's, it's good enough it stands on its own. It don't need to add anything to it. Sometimes I will add some, uh, Cabernet Sauvignon, but it's a, uh, estate out there on the base of Spring Mountain. That stuff, just a knockout.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Tom Rinaldi:
I'm, I'm still enjoying it, you know. Still enjoying making Merlot.
Doug Shafer:
Good. Good. So, 22 years at Duckhorn. How... And it was a great, great run. Why'd, why'd it work so well? What was, what worked? What was the trick at Duckhorn? 'Cause it's a wonderful place.
Tom Rinaldi:
Well, I, I would say we, we focused on quality, not quantity. Um, and you know, I w- I was meticulous on, on making sure that we didn't bottle anything that we weren't gonna be proud of. That's why we came up with, you know, names like Decoy and Migration and so forth. These were second labels, and, uh, weren't supposed to shine like the Duckhorn, uh, lo- m- n- the m- uh, our moniker, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tom Rinaldi:
Our, our, our, our home base. Uh, so, th- that was very important, uh, and we had a good run of vineyards and meticulous, uh, management. Um, very, very pleased with the, the Madrigal, uh, connection we had, and, uh, Jess Madrigal in particular. Uh, they were, they were meticulous on making sure that we got all the quality we could.
Doug Shafer:
And that's, that's Madrigal, that's Jess Madrigal and t- their, their, uh, vineyard. Vineyard management company.
Tom Rinaldi:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
Right. So they take care of you guys.
Tom Rinaldi:
And I'm still up there making wine. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Tom Rinaldi:
That's my, that's my go to place for, for, uh, Pellet, for my own, and yeah. We're starting a new wine company, uh, called Double Plus. We'll have Sauvignon Blanc and cabernet, uh, coming in.
Doug Shafer:
Cool. So, that's-
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah, I agree.
Doug Shafer:
Th- that's your own, that's your own, uh, your own deal coming up.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah, and w- we're a legal entity.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
(laughs) I do a lot of things under the radar, you know, for family and friends, but, uh, this one's gonna be a legal entity.
Doug Shafer:
Cool. So, after Duckhorn you made a move. Tell me about that one.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. I got the opportunity to, to go to Hewitt w- uh, d- Hewitt Vineyard, and, and use Bill Hewitt's name. Uh, Mr. Hewitt had passed away, and the opportunity came up, uh, and they were really trying to get me to, to interview with this Tom Selfridge guy, and so I finally said, "Look, you know, we'll have lunch together in, in Yountville. I don't wanna do it in St. Helena, have people talking and wondering." So we had lunch and, uh, we go out to the vineyard after lunch, and it's just c- phenomenal. Phenomenal.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tom Rinaldi:
And he's got me up at the house, he's pointing around to the vineyard, and he said, "All of this would be yours." You know, it's like the devil...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
...tempting Jesus. And, uh...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
And I'm, I'm looking at it, I s- I said, "Well, you know what, tell you the truth, um, I'm not, I'm not even flying the plane anymore. I'm, I'm on autopilot at, at Duckhorn."
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Tom Rinaldi:
Uh, we'd acquired Goldeneye. W- we had Paraduxx. We had all these facilities and winemakers, and I'm just basically looking over their shoulder, k- kind of steering them around a little bit, but I wasn't really flying the plane.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
And so, this would've been an opportunity to start all over again, and, uh, with this... So I said, "Throw my na- my, my hat into the ring," and he said, "Well, you're the only hat." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
So, I said, "Let's wait till after the wine auction in, uh, 2000 till we make any kind of a mention of it." But I had already hinted to Dan and Margaret that I was leaving, and they were breaking up, too. So, um, they never got it until, you know, basically the wine auction. And I mentioned it to Mike Thompson, our congressman, and he kinda like, his jaw drops. He goes, "You can't leave Duckhorn! You are Duckhorn!" (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Well-
Tom Rinaldi:
And I, it was a great opportunity to work with the Hewitt fruit, and, and then I didn't realize it, but Provenance was there, too. We had a huge contract with Andy Beckstoffer bringing in Merlot and cabernet from all around the valley.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Interesting. No, I remember when that news broke that you were leaving Duckhorn, and we were all, um, yeah. 'Cause Rinaldi is Duckhorn. Um...
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But, uh, good for you. That takes a lot of guts, and, uh, how fun to get back in the... What was it like to get back in the driver's seat?
Tom Rinaldi:
Oh, it was, you know, to tell you the truth, we, the first couple of years were, I wasn't really in the driver's seat. Uh, we were doing custom crushing. Our first year was at Cardinale and that was 2000, and then 2001, we were at Andretti and Laird.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
And then by 2002, we acquired that building that became, uh, it was Beaucanon. It became Provenance. And, uh, A- August of 2002, we had purchased it and moved in, and we did the whole harvest there. It was the darnedest thing. It was exciting.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Tom Rinaldi:
That became very exciting. Yeah. Interesting to look back, too, 'cause I've been replaced I think five times now.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
Since I left in November of 2014. And, um, the same thing happened at Duckhorn. Um...
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, there's been a few. S-
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. Tony Biagi didn't take over like I thought he would. Uh, Mark Beringer did.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
And Mark's over at Beringer now. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
He's at Beringer, right.
Tom Rinaldi:
Where he, uh, belongs.
Doug Shafer:
I know.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, Provenance for 14 years. Another great run. Good for you.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah, indeed.
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, and Hewitt. And I think you, you'd got, Cab got, uh, in the top ten Spectators one year, back in '13.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah, it was number four.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
In the world, and, uh, number one Cabernet. And, uh, that was cool. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
That was a 2010 vintage.
Doug Shafer:
Which is a -
Tom Rinaldi:
We made a Double Plus that year that was even higher scoring, but there wasn't enough quantity to, to, uh, to, uh, get that kind of score.
Doug Shafer:
Aren't you am- you know, 2010, aren't you amazed how good the 2010s are? Because at the time, it was a really tough harvest. I remember just being, "Aw," you know, I just, the weather wasn't cooperating. We couldn't, ripeness was, uh, there, it wasn't there. I mean, I just remember Elias and I were pulling our hair out, and then the t- and then the, you know, a year and a half later you're bottling these wines, going, "God, these are beautiful." So-
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You just never know. Kinda funny.
Tom Rinaldi:
Really. There was something about how the, the wines got along with the barrels, I think, that year. Uh, d- that was...
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Tom Rinaldi:
...a crucial part. We're really getting meticulous about the barrel selection, the toasting, the works. And, and that's a crucial ingredient. It, it's much more important than most people would ever imagine. And, um, uh, uh, I think they played well together that, that vintage.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I know I, yeah. I spent a lot of time with, uh, coopers, coopers and selection, and um, but t-
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah, in retrospect...
Doug Shafer:
That technol- technology's gotten -
Tom Rinaldi:
...the '11 and the, and even the '08, and, uh, were, those were more difficult...
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tom Rinaldi:
...vintages to, to, you know, put together than the, than the '10.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Um, so after '14, you retired. So, how's retirement going?
Tom Rinaldi:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
It's fun. Honest to god, I, you know, um, I don't have...
Doug Shafer:
No, I mean-
Tom Rinaldi:
...to get out of bed in the morning if I don't wanna. You know? It's just, uh...
Doug Shafer:
You're-
Tom Rinaldi:
It, it's been a good ride.
Doug Shafer:
You're not retired.
Tom Rinaldi:
And I'm up in Washington...
Doug Shafer:
You, you're not retired.
Tom Rinaldi:
Y- I know.
Doug Shafer:
You're busy.
Tom Rinaldi:
I know.
Doug Shafer:
Tell me, so, tell m- I wanna hear, I wanna hear about everything. So, Washington? What else?
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. I'm, uh, with, uh, Stan Keeterman, our gas guy. Uh, got a beautiful vineyard across from, uh, Oakville Crossroad.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
And, uh, and then I'm doing the Pellet Estate, and, um, p- oh, um, Stout Family Vineyards, too.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
We just bottled a nice Sauvignon Blanc. Um, and, nyeh, this, uh, this new one, the Alpha Omega, uh, what am I saying. Uh, Double Plus.
Doug Shafer:
Double Plus.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, uh...
Doug Shafer:
So, uh, consulting. Besides not having to get out of bed at any particular time, what else do you like about it?
Tom Rinaldi:
Well, I, I make the f- the final decisions for blending. I, that's, that's a crucial part in my life anyway. Uh, so that, that one is, is something I've been very blessed, uh, to, to have the ability to, to separate what I th- I'm convinced is gonna be very popular from something that probably won't work out. And, uh, so it, it, that part is crucial. Um, I do that every year, uh, up in Washington. I'll, I'll mark the barrels, uh, with these different s- emblems or symbols.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
And, um, and then come back, uh, a- and see how they get together. How they blend together. And then we'll c- come back a month later and do the final, final blends. And, um, that's, that's my call. Uh, they, they all let me do as I wish.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Tom Rinaldi:
I'm a partner as well as their consulting winemaker.
Doug Shafer:
That's, that's-
Tom Rinaldi:
And, it-
Doug Shafer:
That's super.
Tom Rinaldi:
It's been very successful.
Doug Shafer:
That's super.
Tom Rinaldi:
In fact, I just got a couple of cases and there's two more on their way of the Rosé. We, we finished it out. It's my summer wine. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Tom Rinaldi:
I just love it. Got the twist off, and it's Syrah and Grenache. And, uh, it's the bleed. And, uh, it's salmon color perfect. It's wonderful.
Doug Shafer:
Well, good. So, when I'm, I'm, I'm buzzing home on Pratt Avenue, one of these evenings, I'll stop by. 'Cause, uh...
Tom Rinaldi:
I'll have one chilled for you, ready to go. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You got it. 'Cause you're, I pass your house, you're my short cut. And I'm trying to keep the s-
Tom Rinaldi:
Good show.
Doug Shafer:
I'm trying to keep the speed fairly down. I'm working on it.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I'm working on it. Um...
Tom Rinaldi:
It's 35.
Doug Shafer:
I know.
Tom Rinaldi:
And we wanted to make it 25, like the rest of town, but that's all right.
Doug Shafer:
Uh, y-
Tom Rinaldi:
You know, people still go 50.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. It's rural. Come on. We're country folks.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Um, but I gotta ask you about something else. Besides wine and your passion for wine, you are probably the most famous cyclist in the Napa Valley. You are... When did you start, when did this passion start? All you do is ride your bike.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. It, it was d- I would have to say it was probably during the Davis days. Um, it was after I had, uh, I, I c- say my seventh knee operation.
Doug Shafer:
Oh. (laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
Uh, believe it or not. And, uh, I just took on the bicycle as a, a way I might, my p- the doctor did the, oh, he did a cadaver, replacement for my ligaments, and, uh, did a micro-fracturing of my kneecap.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Tom Rinaldi:
And, uh, he, you know, I told him I'm sick and tired of going to physiotherapy, and he said, "Well, just ride your bicycle." And you g- and I go, "Well, Doc, you know, either I'm riding up and down the highway with the drunks or I'm up in some serious hills." "Yeah, well, go up in the serious hills."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
I go, "Well, aren't you worried that I'll overdo it?" And he goes, "No. You can't overdo it." "Oh yeah?" And so that was like a challenge.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. (laughs) Well, because-
Tom Rinaldi:
Uh, it really got into my, my blood, no question about it.
Doug Shafer:
Well, it is.
Tom Rinaldi:
I, I, I've done 10 death rides, and that's-
Doug Shafer:
What's, what's a death ride?
Tom Rinaldi:
Out of Markleeville.
Doug Shafer:
What's a-
Tom Rinaldi:
It's a, you v- go over Monitor Pass down into Nevada, back over Monitor Pass and then into Hope Valley, and then up, uh, Ebbetts Pass, and then down, and then b- uh, to Strawberry and then back around, up and down, and then you do Carson Pass up to the top and back down. And it's, uh...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
...130 miles and 16,000 feet of climbing and it's just nuts.
Doug Shafer:
You done 10 of those?
Tom Rinaldi:
10 of them.
Doug Shafer:
How long's-
Tom Rinaldi:
One more, and-
Doug Shafer:
How long's it take to, how long's it take to do that?
Tom Rinaldi:
Best time is about nine hours.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
And typically closer to 10.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man. You know, uh, you know, I started riding. I remember I called you a few years ago, 'cause I was saying, you know, "How do you wear these bike pants?" Instead of laughing at me, you laughed with me. I really appreciate that, by the way, Tom.
Tom Rinaldi:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I've never thanked you for that. Most people would've said, "Don't you know what you're talking about, Shafer?" You were like, "Shafer, here's what you do. You, just the pa- ba-ba-ba-ba-bum," you were great. Um...
Tom Rinaldi:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
But I remember talking to guys early on when I was, uh, I'd be really proud 'cause I rode to Calistoga and back and, you know, averaged, you know, 15 miles per hour. And somebody said, I don't think it was you, but they said, "Well, have you, have you gone up over into Pope Valley?" I said, "No." They said, "Why not?" I go, "Well, there's a real big hill there." (laughs) And they said w- (laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
They said, "Well, for the good riding, you gotta get, you gotta climb one of these hills and get out into the..."
Tom Rinaldi:
It-
Doug Shafer:
"...uh, wilderness out there."
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But I do wanna ask you one question about cycling, because I heard a story that you did a midnight ride to Tahoe once. Is that true?
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. It was-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Tell me that one.
Tom Rinaldi:
We, it was a full moon, and we went to Ana's Cantina and had a beer, uh, Dave Smith, had a beer, I had a beer, a Guinness.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
And Lorelai, uh...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
Tuttle had a diet coke.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
And we got on our bicycles and went down to the trail and then down to 128 and up to Lake Hennessey and then to Lake Berryessa and kept going.
Doug Shafer:
D- was that the plan, or did just, you got up there and just-
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, that was the plan. You just... (laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
We got to, 'cause Dave has a, a, a nice little home up in Tahoe, uh, north shore, as well as down here in, uh, Napa Valley. And he had a place in Costa Rica, too.
Doug Shafer:
So you rode to-
Tom Rinaldi:
That being said, um, uh-
Doug Shafer:
You rode the d- all, you rode all night long in the full moon, to t- Lake Tahoe?
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. And then, sunrise, uh, in, uh, Grass Valley area.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
And then, uh, the climb up to Truckee. And we got to Truckee and we're having a big breakfast.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
And coffee and, you know, just thinking, "Well, this is good enough. Let's, let's get a ride the way back."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
And, uh, "Nah. Let's go."
Doug Shafer:
No. You rode-
Tom Rinaldi:
So we just kept going.
Doug Shafer:
You rode... Oh, you-
Tom Rinaldi:
So, we got to, uh, sh- north shore, 198 miles.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
And I'm looking at the odometer, and it just clicked over to 199, and I'm thinking, "I oughta go round the block- ah, forget about it." I mean...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
I don't have to do 200, after-
Doug Shafer:
Ah.
Tom Rinaldi:
After all.
Doug Shafer:
That's a, how long a, how long did that one take? How many hours?
Tom Rinaldi:
That was, we got in about 1:00 in the afternoon.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
So, we left at 10:30, and that, yeah. It was 14 hours.
Doug Shafer:
Ah. You're crazy.
Tom Rinaldi:
15 hours. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You're crazy. I love you. I love you.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. We had a masseuse waiting for us too. We, uh, each of us got a nice massage afterward.
Doug Shafer:
You need that. You need that.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, tell me-
Tom Rinaldi:
And a lot of pizza.
Doug Shafer:
Tell me about Double Plus. Are, can people buy these wines yet? Are they out?
Tom Rinaldi:
No, no, not yet.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
We, we haven't even, uh, we haven't even h- picked our first grape yet.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Okay. So, it's coming.
Tom Rinaldi:
So, this is something for the future.
Doug Shafer:
Tell me about the name. What's the name mean?
Tom Rinaldi:
Well, it's my symbol for, when I'm going to barrels, and I, I, I'll give them a check if, if that's good enough, a plus if it's really nice, or a minus if I don't think it's all that good, or w- god forbid, X, you know, if it's got brettanomyces or some flaw.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
I'll give it an X. But every now and then I'll find one, ooh. Give it an H, I call it. A two plus.
Doug Shafer:
A Double Plus. Oh, this is-
Tom Rinaldi:
And, uh, we tried to call our high end, um, Hewitt, Ambassador, 'cause he was the ambassador to Jamaica once he retired as, uh, John Deere's, uh, President and CEO.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
So, we wanted to call it Ambassador, but that's the wine I'm working with in, in Washington. We have to call it Ambassador Wine of Washington, because there's an Ambassador Vineyard that, uh, Zellerbach owns in Sonoma County. So, to make sure there's no confusion there. So, th- the company would not allow us to use, uh, the Ambassador, uh, as, uh, you know, an indication of high end.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Tom Rinaldi:
So I said, "How about Double Plus?" And boom, it stuck. Yeah, there we go.
Doug Shafer:
You know...
Tom Rinaldi:
But they never trademarked it.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, you gotta trademark it. And I got to-
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah!
Doug Shafer:
I'll tell you why you gotta trademark, because, um, I do something that no one knows about except Elias. So, when we're tasting blends, you know, blind- we got five or six wines in front of us. Or even, uh, even like a, if we're tasting competition. Um, you know, I don't get into too many, you know, adjectives, it's just mostly I'm just like, you know, quality of nose. What's the aroma like? What's the mouth like? You know, just nose and mouth, nose and mouth.
Tom Rinaldi:
Sure.
Doug Shafer:
And I rank them. And I use, uh, little symbols (laughs) and there's, starting at the bottom is two, two negatives, two minus sign like an equals sign.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Next better would be just one minus sign. Uh, okay would just be, like, a check. I might use a check...
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
...or I might just use the word okay.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
If I like it, I give it a plus, whether it's nose or mouth, and if I really like it, I give it two pluses. (laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
There you go.
Doug Shafer:
I got the same thing. Tommy, I'm doing the same thing!
Tom Rinaldi:
Bingo. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
All right. You can give me, I, I can work for you. I'll consult with you.
Tom Rinaldi:
There you go.
Doug Shafer:
You do the final blends, I'll just, I'll just go v- you know, sample grapes for you.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. You, you give them the check or the double plus. We-
Doug Shafer:
Okay. (laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
That's, isn't that great? I, I just love it. We, we have, own the LLC now, you know. We just applied for it and we got it, so...
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Tom Rinaldi:
It's, it, the rest is history.
Doug Shafer:
Good, good, good. Well, go trademark it, 'cause I might take it. I like it. No, I'm not gonna do that.
Tom Rinaldi:
It's done.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, good.
Tom Rinaldi:
It's done.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
All right, Mr. Rinaldi. Thank you so much for taking the time today. And-
Tom Rinaldi:
My pleasure, indeed. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, great, great to hear your stories and, uh, I miss seeing you, I miss seeing you on the road, so, uh, I'll see you out there on the, on the cycling days one of these days soon. Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
Yeah. And one of these days we gotta refresh that, that story about your, uh, d- idea to make a Port out of Hillside Select. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Yeah, that was, yeah. That didn't go over really well with my Dad, but that's a...
Tom Rinaldi:
No kidding. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Okay. (laughs)
Tom Rinaldi:
I can still hear the screaming.
Doug Shafer:
Oh god. Yeah.
Tom Rinaldi:
All right.
Doug Shafer:
His quote was, "You took 200 gallons of my Cabernet and did this to it?" It was not good.
Tom Rinaldi:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
It was not good. Um...
Tom Rinaldi:
What's your marketing plan? Oh, boy.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah. A couple of rookies, Elias and me. All right, Tommy. Take care. Great talking to you and, and be safe out there. We'll see you.
Tom Rinaldi:
Fare thee well.
Doug Shafer:
All right.
Tom Rinaldi:
Bye bye.
Doug Shafer:
Bye.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of The Taste. This is Doug Shafer from Napa Valley, California. We've got a special guest today. Uh, a guy named Andy Erickson. And I gotta tell you, I've known this guy for a long time, but it's always like, "Hey, how you doing? Hey, how you doing?" I didn't really know him. And uh, and he didn't know me. But then we, uh, in the last year or two we've been serving together on the Board of the Napa Valley Vintners. We've worked together with Premier Napa Valley, we've gotten to know each other and, uh, you know, I'm... Andy, I think we've done some good work together and we've, we've had some fun.
Andy Erickson:
Yeah, it's been fun. It's been, uh, meaningful. I mean, there's a lot of things happening in the Valley all the time, so it's been great to, uh, to work together and to get to know you a little bit better. And it's been, it's been fun. The, uh, past couple months I've been finally listening to your podcast, and I have to say it's really cool to listen to some of these of people I thought I knew and to end up getting to know them just on a deeper level. It's pretty fun.
Doug Shafer:
Well, that's... And, and that's what we're gonna do to you today. So, we're gonna put you in the hot seat. No, not really, but, um-
Andy Erickson:
I love it.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) So but, welcome. Thanks for taking the time. We could spend the next hour or so just talking about all the incredible people and properties in the wine business you've worked with, Harlan, Staglin, Screaming Eagle, Dalla Valle, Mayacamas, but before we get to that, I wanna go all the way back and find out, uh, what was, uh, pre-Napa Valley Andy Erickson up to. So, where were you born? Where'd you grow up?
Andy Erickson:
Well, I grew up in the Midwest, but to go back, uh, I was born in New Jersey, which is great. I have the fame of being, uh, born in New Jersey, although I... We lived there for just a couple of months after I was born. My father was finishing his PhD, uh, at Rutgers in New Jersey. So, he did his postdoctorate work down in La Jolla, um, at Scripps. He, he had a PhD in molecular biology, kind of a brainiac guy. And so we moved to Southern California when I was, you know, an infant.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
And, and just for a few years, then moved to Indiana. And I grew up on a lake in Indiana, very idyllic life. You know, like, shoveled a hockey rink in the winter and then water skiing, fishing in the summer. Uh, but then my dad, he was a professor at Notre Dame University, but was also involved in some early biotech stuff. We moved to Massachusetts when I was in high school and he, uh, started a company there.
But um, it was funny being from a small town in Indiana, I moved to New England and, and outside of Boston and just realized there was a whole world out there, which was pretty cool. I ended up going to Tufts University, which is just outside of Boston. And it's funny, the reason I went there is because in high school, my orthodontist, who I thought was one of the coolest guys I'd ever met, he, he lived in Nantucket and he would fly to Framingham, Massachusetts three days a week and have his practice.
And I... He told me he went to Tufts and I went home one day and I told my mom, I was like, "Tell me about this Tufts University." Anyway, I ended up going there and starting off, uh, starting off premed, just thinking that... I didn't really know what I wanted to do, but my dad was a science guy, so I kind of grew up in the lab. And uh, got quickly weeded out. You know, you hear about the-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
... weeding out process. Well, that was me. I got weeded out, but I also, uh... it was the mid-'80s, there was a lot of interest things going on internationally. I, I played rugby, so I had a bunch of international friends. And I got into-
Doug Shafer:
All right, I gotta-
Andy Erickson:
... studying-
Doug Shafer:
I, I gotta stop you, 'cause there's too much... You've, you've gone... You've, you've covered your young life too fast, man. So, you're... I wanna talk about Indiana.
Andy Erickson:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
'Cause I grew up in Chicago. I'm a Midwestern boy. I didn't know that about you. So we... That's why we get along.
Andy Erickson:
Oh, that's right.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
Yeah, so my, my parents are both from Chicago. Well, Hinsdale, my dad, and my mom from La Grange Park-
Doug Shafer:
No, no-
Andy Erickson:
... so just outside of Chicago.
Doug Shafer:
No. Have we had this chat before?
Andy Erickson:
Yeah. No.
Doug Shafer:
I grew up in Hinsdale.
Andy Erickson:
Oh, you're kidding me.
Doug Shafer:
Uh-uh.
Andy Erickson:
So my dad (laughs), my dad, uh, is a Hinsdale boy.
Doug Shafer:
Me, too.
Andy Erickson:
Yeah, it's, uh... This is crazy.
Doug Shafer:
For 17 years. And La-
Andy Erickson:
So, this is funny. And, and-
Doug Shafer:
And La Grange, La Grange was the next town over. They were the big rival to Hinsdale. Your dad knows that, and so does your mom.
Andy Erickson:
Oh yeah, of course.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, how funny.
Andy Erickson:
Oh, my God. This is so funny, 'cause, you know, listening to these podcasts, I- I've always thought, like, you know, "Yeah, there's six degrees of separation, but really in the wine business, there's, like, two, maximum."
Doug Shafer:
Well, well, listen-
Andy Erickson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and you mentioned growing up in Indiana, Elkhart, right? Some small town?
Andy Erickson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And-
Andy Erickson:
Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... playing hockey on the lake. That's what we used to do in Hinsdale. There's, uh, the lake. There was a couple lakes that froze over in the winter and we'd go out and shovel them off and play hockey. And uh-
Andy Erickson:
Oh yeah, totally.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, oh, so this is crazy.
Andy Erickson:
So cool.
Doug Shafer:
This is crazy. So, and then you ended up... Um, but you moved to Massachusetts, and how old were you when that happened?
Andy Erickson:
Uh, so I was just starting my sophomore year of high school. So, that was a big change.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Andy Erickson:
And it's funny. I would say that, that's when I learned that hockey was actually a contact sport (laughs), which was pretty hilarious, because I, you know, I ended up not making the high school team. We had a pretty serious high school hockey team, but I played youth hockey and I wrestled and I, I played tennis. I played tennis my whole life, but, um, yeah, just, uh-
Doug Shafer:
But how-
Andy Erickson:
... high school for... Yeah?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, but you went... So, you went from, uh... I've got another one for you. So, you went from a small town high school to a big town high school as a sophomore, and what you also don't know about me... God, we... Can we get this virus out of here so we can go have dinner or lunch? Anyway-
Andy Erickson:
Yeah (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
... um, I went from a big high school in Hinsdale, 2,500 kids, to St. Helena High, 500 kids, when I was a junior in high school. So, we got similar-
Andy Erickson:
Yeah, that's a different, that's a different kind of change right there.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, mine I think was easier than yours. I bet you yours was tougher.
Andy Erickson:
Yeah, it was, it was a little bit of a struggle at first, but I ended up making friends with a guy from Ohio who was new to town as well, and it was pretty funny. We became great friends. He was on the wrestling team and he was also a bodybuilder, so he was pretty fun to go around with. My, my buddy Ben, and, uh, we ended up having a great time in high school.
And, and then probably my, you know, my favorite years from my, you know, my younger years are my years at Tufts. I still have great friends from those years, and we keep in touch. We're all over the world, but we still keep in touch and get together once in awhile. We actually have, you know, quite a few people from those years in Bay Area too. We all moved out here, um, uh, in... You know, I graduated in '89, so we ended up moving to San Francisco together and no one was from here. And we had probably a posse of about eight or 10 of us and, uh, just getting started, not knowing what we wanted to do. But to back up a little bit-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
... so I did get weeded out of the premed thing and I ended up studying political science and international relations. So-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
... um, finished that at Tufts and then wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. So, uh, but, but funny thing was, they have a... So Tufts has this graduate school called the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
And if you're kind of a state department type or whatever, it's, it's a, it's a great school. So I did a summer program in France when I was in... So, between my junior and senior years, and it's up in The Alps. It's in the Haute-Savoie. It's this beautiful area on Lake Annecy. It's part of the Tour de France, you know, that-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
... grueling Alps-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... part. So, I lived with a family and just studied at the UN in Geneva par- part of the week and then just kind of studied art and French and all sorts of fun stuff. And, but the family I lived with had this incredible wine cellar, and it wasn't, like, first growths or, you know, Grand Cru kind of things, but it was village wines and shiners. They had this kind of bunker wine cellar underneath the backyard that had about 3,000 bottles of wine in it. You know, and I was-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.
Andy Erickson:
... 19 years old. So, I was 19 years old. We would go down there and pick out a few bottles and then cook outside and just, you know, eat dinner. And then my French got better as the night went on and, uh-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Andy Erickson:
... I just remember coming back from that summer thinking, uh... Well, so at that point, I wanted to be a diplomat. I had, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
... I had this vision that I would go back to grad school-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... and then do something internationally. But you know, this was the Reagan years, so everyone, everyone working at the UN sort of felt a little deflated and it just... That part of it wasn't really that fun. But I just remember coming back thinking, "I don't know what I wanna do, but I wanna live like that." You know, thinking-
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Andy Erickson:
... just being outdoors and wine and food and, and it was amazing. So moving to San Francisco, we would start coming up to Healdsburg or Napa or wherever and, you know, ride our bikes and taste wines, and I just fell in love with the whole idea. And not only that, I, I got a job at an advertising agency, so I kind of... I would say that that's what you do when you don't know what you wanna do.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Andy Erickson:
You start doing something like that.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
I just sort of fell into it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah.
Andy Erickson:
And, uh-
Doug Shafer:
So at this point you're out of, you're out of college at this point, right?
Andy Erickson:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Your graduated... Okay.
Andy Erickson:
So, I graduated college and my first three, four years, I was living in San Francisco. And, and, you know, it was a fun agency and one of our clients was Heublein. Which, at that time, you know, they owned, uh, BV-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andy Erickson:
... and I don't know if they still owned Christian Brothers, but anyway, my job was I was a media planner. So that's... You have a budget of, you know, X million dollars, you're gonna spend it all over the, you know, country promoting whatever brand and you decide where it's gonna be spent.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andy Erickson:
So we would come up and have these meetings in Rutherford, and Dick Maher at that time was running the show-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
... for them. And we would, we'd have these meetings in Rutherford. My eyes would be glazing over, looking at these budgets and I'd be looking out the window, just looking at guys, you know, pruning and digging, digging holes. And I just remember thinking, like, "I could dig a hole."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Andy Erickson:
You know, "I should be out there." And uh, kind of put a bunch of ideas together and decided I was gonna, I was gonna quit what I was doing and travel through South America, which I had made some friends down there and, and just thought, "I'll go down there and I'll work in a vineyard and winery. I'll learn Spanish and then I'll come back and see what I can do." So, I, I... That's what I did.
Doug Shafer:
You're kidding. So, you're like how old? 23, four? Something like that?
Andy Erickson:
20- 25.
Doug Shafer:
Man, that's, that's-
Andy Erickson:
So, uh-
Doug Shafer:
... that's... You know, good for you. That's just crazy. Yeah, so like, "Go, man." You just did it. South America. I mean-
Andy Erickson:
Yeah, it was funny, 'cause nobody was going to South America back then.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
Except a guy named Paul Hobbs, which is a small part of the story coming up, but, um, yeah, it- it's funny. I, I left town and, uh, everyone's like, "What? Are you going in Peace Corps?"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Andy Erickson:
And I, I called it the Andy Corps.
Doug Shafer:
Andy-
Andy Erickson:
No, I'm going into the Andy Corps. So, I actually traveled-
Doug Shafer:
'Cause you did... Did you, did you really have a plan or were you just kind of winging it?
Andy Erickson:
No, I was totally winging it. I had-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
So, I had, uh, you know, graduating in '89, I had a bunch of friends in San Francisco and we had... So, some inter- uh, sort of some interconnected circles of friends. Um, I met Agustin Huneeus, so Agustin, uh, Francisco Junior.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
Um, he lived down the street from me, and he was just getting started in the family business. They had put him in charge of selling the Chilean wines, right? So-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... you know, we'd be out partying, whatever, and everyone would go back to our apartments. And I remember in Agustin's apartment, he always had the, uh, the collateral material spread all over his house, you know, and cases of wine and stuff. And I'm like, "What are you doing?" He said, "Oh, I'm just... You know, I gotta go on the road and sell this wine." And I just-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
I remember later on telling him, "Hey, I wanna get in the wine business." And, and he's funny. He- he'll, he'll tell you that he, he considers himself the guy that tried to convince me not to go into the wine business-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Andy Erickson:
... because he said, "Well, that sounds fun, but it's a terrible idea. But I'll give you a couple of phone numbers." So, I just had a couple of phone numbers of guys in Chile who were winemakers. So, you know, this- there was no email, no cellphones.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Andy Erickson:
I just, I just headed down there. I traveled for about six months. I started in Central America and made my way all the way through Brazil, mostly by bus or boat or-
Doug Shafer:
Hey, how-
Andy Erickson:
... hitchhiking or whatever.
Doug Shafer:
I gotta, I-
Andy Erickson:
I was with one other friend.
Doug Shafer:
You know, that time period... I'm interrupting. Just um, yeah, you're 25, you're, you know, a rugby player, you're in good shape, all that stuff, but still, wasn't it... Any, any dangerous, uh, you know-
Andy Erickson:
Oh, yeah. I mean, we were just kind of stupid. I mean, we... When I think of it now, like... So, I, I studied-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Andy Erickson:
... Spanish in Guatemala for, like, six weeks. But during that time, they signed the Peace Treaty in El Salvador, which is right, you know, right down the road.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
So what did we do? We got on a bus and just went to El Salvador to see, you know, what... There must be a party going on. That was our (laughs), that was our thinking. You know, and we went there. And then, uh, uh, ended up flying to, uh, Cartagena, Columbia. And from there, making our way down... All the way pretty much to Buenos Aires-
Doug Shafer:
And you're traveling-
Andy Erickson:
... with only a couple of flights. I mean, it was like, I took a boat through the Amazon for, like, 10 days.
Doug Shafer:
How cool-
Andy Erickson:
I ended up meeting a bunch of interesting people.
Doug Shafer:
And you're by yourself or were you traveling with somebody?
Andy Erickson:
No, no, I was with one other friend-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
... a female friend. Um, we weren't a couple, but we were really good friends.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
And-
Doug Shafer:
That's good to have-
Andy Erickson:
... we had talked about doing something like this for a while. But yeah, I remember, uh, crossing the border on a bus between Columbia and Venezuela, which at that time was one of the most dangerous parts of the world.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
And we were, you know... Every couple hours you'd have to get off the bus and spread eagle against the side of the bus and they'd search everybody for weapons and whatnot.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Andy Erickson:
And we just didn't even think anything of it. It's so stupid now that I think about it. I mean, we were like... We got to this point where we were like, we were trying to figure out how little money we could spend in a day. So you'd find a place where you could, like, hang your hammock for two bucks or whatever. And like-
Doug Shafer:
What were you, what were-
Andy Erickson:
... eat a bowl of rice and have a beer.
Doug Shafer:
You know, even though you're 25, you're out of the house, you know, your parents are still your parents. What did they think about this?
Andy Erickson:
Oh, I don't even know. They, they had no idea. I mean, it was the kind of thing where you'd... I would write letters on the old, like, airmail rice paper stuff-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Andy Erickson:
... and, like, send them home. And then at each ci- city I got to, I'd go to the American Express office and there'd be some stuff waiting for me.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Andy Erickson:
Letters and whatever-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
... friends or my parents would send, you know, some money sometimes. But uh, yeah, I mean, very different world, right?
Doug Shafer:
No doubt.
Andy Erickson:
I mean, it's, like, my kids now, if... We're in constant contact pretty much every day. They're texting or-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... or phones. I mean, I remember (laughs)... You talk about growing up going skiing. My girls are on the ski team at Sugar Bowl and I remember once I dropped off my daughter at ski team. She didn't have her phone and I said, "Well, we'll just meet here at 3:30." And she's like, "Wait a minute. What are you talking about? Like, what if you're not here?"
Doug Shafer:
Yeah (laughs).
Andy Erickson:
I'm like, "Well, then you just wait."
Doug Shafer:
Then you just wait, right, like we used to do.
Andy Erickson:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Andy Erickson:
Anyway, so-
Doug Shafer:
That's true.
Andy Erickson:
... but it was a-
Doug Shafer:
But it was... Yeah, yeah, I remember being that age. I never talked to my folks. Or being in college, like, my dad called me once and said, "You need to call every Sunday night and talk to your mom." I said, "Yes, Dad." You know, it was kind of like, that was the deal, you know, on the-
Andy Erickson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... the phone in the hallway at the dorm. Funny.
Andy Erickson:
So funny.
Doug Shafer:
All right, so you survived obviously, which is great. But uh, so after you traveled around, what... Then what happened?
Andy Erickson:
Well, so we ended up in Buenos Aires and my, my goal was to make it to Chile and then stay for a year and work in a winery and vineyard and just see what was going on.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andy Erickson:
So I get to Buenos Aires and one of my best friends, he ended up being my best man in my wedding, he lives in, uh, BA and he introduced me to his buddy, Ernesto Catena, who's part of the Catena Family, which I had never heard of. And I told him my plan and he said basically, "You're not going to Chile. That's ridiculous. I'm taking you out to Mendoza-
... I'm gonna introduce you to some people and you're gonna stay there." So, that's what I did. I went out there and ended up, uh, meeting Nicolás Catena. That's Ernesto's dad. He's-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
I mean, I would say he's, like, the Robert Mondavi of-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
... of Argentina, right? And uh, kind of explained to him my idea of just kind of seeing all facets of what was going on. And you know, didn't really need to be paid, but if they had a place for me to stay or whatever, I'd do that. And they totally hooked me up, and I would sort of move around a couple months here pruning, and a couple months there working on the bottling line, 'cause they have a bunch of properties-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... in Mendoza. And uh, so ended up, uh... The most I spent was, during the summer, I, I basically had 12 acres under my purview, if you will, as a laborer. And I trained a vineyard from two buds to the ground all the way up to two canes on a trellis. If, I mean, if-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... you know anything about viticulture, that's a thing. But I did the whole thing myself, 12 acres. So-
Doug Shafer:
12 acres. Now, wait a minute. And you've got no background, no training. They just... So, you learned on the job, it sounds like.
Andy Erickson:
Yeah. I mean, the foreman took me out and he said, "Look, you got-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Andy Erickson:
... you're gonna have these shoots coming up. You thin it down to two chutes and you move on, and you do that to every vine. And then you... When you come back, they're kind of a foot tall. You take one of them, you tie it to the-
Doug Shafer:
Right, the stake.
Andy Erickson:
... stake, and you take everything else off. And by the time you're done with that, you come back and you, you do the next thing (laughs)." You know, and it's like-
Doug Shafer:
You said, so-
Andy Erickson:
I think I was there for three months-
Doug Shafer:
... Andy, you did-
Andy Erickson:
... laboring everyday.
Doug Shafer:
So, you did, you did 12 acres by yourself, no help?
Andy Erickson:
Uh, yeah. I did.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Andy Erickson:
I'm... I don't think I'm exaggerating. And uh-
Doug Shafer:
No, I believe, I believe you.
Andy Erickson:
... it was a brand new vineyard, and uh, the guys that I lived with during the week, like, some of them were the guys that were putting in the stakes, you know, and-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... or the end posts. And these guys, like, they were so into just making sure they were perfectly straight. So their whole day was, like, putting in the straight end posts. You know-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... and then they would go home to a different town on the weekends and I was there by myself, just reading and growing my hair long and walking into town to see what was going on. And I could tell you, there was nothing going on.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Andy Erickson:
This was in a little village called Tupungato, which is probably 45 minutes up into the Andes from the city of Mendoza. And at that time, that was sort of, uh, an outpost for wine.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Andy Erickson:
I mean, this was when Paul Hobbs was just starting to help these guys out. And he was saying, "Well, if you wanna make really interesting wines, you gotta go up to where, like, you're growing the apples and the cherries and stuff." And so, there were orchards all over this area, but Catena was planting these vineyards and, uh, beautiful cobbly soils and you look up behind you and there's the, uh, Tupungato Volcano that's 22,000 feet up.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Andy Erickson:
I mean, it's just a stunning place. And-
Doug Shafer:
Well-
Andy Erickson:
Yeah, and then on the weekends I would take the bus into Buenos Aires and see my buddies. You know-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
... take a long weekend and whatnot. But I was there for 10 solid months, just manual labor. And it was pretty-
Doug Shafer:
Great exp-
Andy Erickson:
... pretty skillful.
Doug Shafer:
Great experience. Did you ever meet, you, Laura Catena when you were down there?
Andy Erickson:
You know, I met her after-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
... and I, I see her fairly often and she's great. And uh-
Doug Shafer:
She's super... She was on the sh- uh, our podcasts a few- a couple months ago.
Andy Erickson:
Yeah, I haven't listened to that yet.
Doug Shafer:
And we got the whole story, all the, the fascinating history. What a, what a cool family they have.
Andy Erickson:
The whole family-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
... is just great. And so, meanwhile everywhere I went down there, people would say, "Oh, you know Paul Hobbs?"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Andy Erickson:
And I was like, "Uh, no, I, I have no idea who that guy is. I..." And everywhere in Mendoza, "Oh, you know Paul Hobbs?" "No, don't know Paul Hobbs." But one day on the crush pad, harvest starts and who shows up but Paul Hobbs-
Doug Shafer:
Paul Hobbs.
Andy Erickson:
... to the crush pad. And I said, "Oh, my God. You're Paul Hobbs (laughs)." And uh, ended up connecting with him and he said, "Hey, you know, when you get back to California, just give me a ring. I'll help you, you know, get set up." And so, I-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... I went back and, uh, I did the summer program at UC Davis. So you know, harvest in Argentina is in-
Doug Shafer:
It's-
Andy Erickson:
... February through April. So, I got back in the spring, signed up for this UC Davis OIV course-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
... which is their international, uh, sort of wine marketing course. But it gives you a whole overview of the industry. I did that.
Doug Shafer:
Hey, well, I got- I gotta interrupt-
Andy Erickson:
And then-
Doug Shafer:
... real fast, Andy, 'cause I, I got a... Had, had the button been pushed? Was it like, "Hey, I- I'm doing this. I'm all about wine now," or were you still kind of-
Andy Erickson:
Oh, yeah. Totally.
Doug Shafer:
... not sure what to do? So-
Andy Erickson:
But I didn't even exactly know what that meant.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Andy Erickson:
You know, I wanted, I wanted to be, I wanted to be in production, but I also had this marketing background. So I just didn't really know exactly-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
... where I was gonna fit in. But I, um, so I did this Davis course. And funny side note, um, it might have been Paul, but somebody else said, "Oh, you're gonna be up in Davis for a couple months. You should call these guys. I think they have a couch you could sleep on."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Andy Erickson:
It ended up being Hugh Davies and Matt Novak, so I-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) No, you gotta be kidding me.
Andy Erickson:
... basically couch surfed.
Doug Shafer:
So-
Andy Erickson:
Isn't that funny?
Doug Shafer:
So Hugh Davies is... Uh, runs Schramsberg, uh, winery. Um, great, famous sparkling wine producer here in Napa. And then Matt Novak is, uh, one of the Novaks in the Novak Family that owns Spottswoode Winery here in St. Helena. So, how funny.
Andy Erickson:
Yeah, and it's... You know, I, I can't say I really got to know them well. I mean, I was, I was doing a summer program. I don't even know what they were doing, but I didn't see them that often. But it was just a funny-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
... connection. But I did that program, then, uh, Paul helped me get a job, a harvest job at Stag's Leap Wine Cellars. So, harvest 1994, I did two harvests, one in Argentina and then I, you know, showed up in Napa and did a, a harvest at, uh, Stag's Leap Wine Cellars. And that was, that was a great introduction to the Valley. You know, I- I've-
Doug Shafer:
You bet.
Andy Erickson:
A lot of people have gone through there. I got to know Warren fairly well. They were sort of in between winemakers at that time. Um, and I can't remember who the previous winemaker was, but Paul was consulting for them. So anyway, I was just an intern. So intern, harvest 1994, Stag's Leap Wine Cellars, and, um, you know, I got to meet Warren. Very interesting guy. I would be the guy on Sundays doing pump overs-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... and the only other person in the winery was Warren tasting the tanks. And so, that was pretty interesting. And then, um, that, that was a great experience, but then that ends pretty quickly, you know, if you're just a harvest intern. So, then-
Doug Shafer:
Right. Couple, couple months, yeah.
Andy Erickson:
I got very lucky that someone said, uh, "Oh, you should go up to Newton Vineyards and talk to the winemaker there, John Kongsgaard. He has one of his, you know, cellar guys that's going back to Europe." So I had never heard of John or Newton Vineyard or anything, but I called and arranged an interview. I drove up there and, uh, met with John. And I'm sure you know John. I mean, John's the-
Doug Shafer:
Yep.
Andy Erickson:
... ultimate renaissance man. I mean, what an incredible guy. I mean, he's just-
Doug Shafer:
Well, they're-
Andy Erickson:
... you know-
Doug Shafer:
... they're a wonderful family. Um, I'll just jump in here. The Kongsgaards, John Kongsgaard is a fantastic winemaker and Andy's gonna tell you more about that in a minute, but his, uh, his father was a judge, a NAPA Su- Superior Court judge and was known by the whole Valley. Judge Kongsgaard, he was the guy. And my parents became good friends with Judge Kongsgaard and his wife. And so, as I was growing up and going to- back and forth to college, you know, we'd meet him on... We'd get together with the family for Christmas and The Fourth of July once in awhile, that type of thing.
Doug Shafer:
But really, really cool family. He's got some- a couple great sisters and, and, uh, John's dynamite. But, but, uh, yeah, and hi- their, their, uh, I think their heritage is Norwegian. He's, he's kind of like the biggest man I've ever met in my life.
Andy Erickson:
(laughs) Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know what I mean?
Andy Erickson:
He's a, he's a towering guy-
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Andy Erickson:
... but he's just such a classic man. I mean, you know, he's... I know him now through the Chamber Music Society. You know, he's very into classical music.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andy Erickson:
And he got me and Annie into classical music, but, um, you know, he... Yeah, he's, he's towering, but he wears his bow tie and he's always smiling-
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Andy Erickson:
... and he's just a great guy. But um, so back then I showed up and I just instantly just sort of fell for this whole philosophy and, and style of winemaking. John back then had really pioneered this style of Chardonnay that he's known for. But not only that, he was just very tapped into the vineyards and, you know, native fermentations and just doing things very naturally and being connected to the land.
And the place up there, Newton Vineyard is just stunning, too. I mean, it's, it's owned by LVMH now and they're about to do a big renovation which is due, but, you know, these incredible terraced vineyards and it's up above St. Helena on Spring Mountain. So I just... I fell in love with the whole idea. And here I am about to... I'm, you know, putting all my eggs in this basket. It's a job to work in the cave basically, making, like, $11 an hour.
And it was so funny, because this was just after Thanksgiving. I was living up on Atlas Peak on this little sort of granny unit on somebody's property, with no insulation and a wood burning stove, and my mom came to visit.
And we're there, uh, and I'm explaining to her about how great it would be to work at this place and learn from this guy. And I had been waiting to hear back for a couple weeks and I was really nervous. And my mom is like (laughs), "What the hell are you doing with your life?"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Andy Erickson:
And it was this great moment, because, you know, a couple weeks later I got the job and I'm working for John. And you know, it was just great. We were making wines in a pretty, pretty low-tech way. You know, I mean, with all the tools you need, but we were racking the wines every quarter, no fining, no filtration.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
The wines... The white wines are these big, bold, you know, unfiltered Chardonnays. And it was just fun and it just... You know, we'd have lunch together with the crew. It was just me and one other guy in the cellar, and then we had two assistant winemakers from New Zealand, who are still good friends. Um, I was actually able to go visit them both last year, which was really fun. Um, and John, and we just... You know, we'd have wine with lunch and we'd, you know, talk about viticulture and wine making. I just... I was super lucky to have that early in my career, that connection. So that-
Doug Shafer:
Well, and you were the-
Andy Erickson:
... that solidified that.
Doug Shafer:
Ye- yeah, and you were there right when... 'Cause John and Newton, his whole unfiltered Chardonnay was, um, incredibly revolutionary at that time. No one was doing anything like that. And he did it and it came out and it just was, um... The wine was just adored by everyone. It was so cool. And so, he, he became... You know, the, the... He became pretty famous really fast. Uh, Newton Unfiltered Chardonnay was the wine you had to have. And, and you're sitting there in the cellar doing it right when that's happening. That must have been kind of cool.
Andy Erickson:
Oh, it was very cool. And it was fun too, because, you know, he would make us taste every single barrel before we wrapped the blends together. And you know, sometimes I would come across a barrel and I'd think, "Wow, that's kind of funky." And I'd go to John and say, "Hey, you need to come and taste this barrel." And sure enough it was pretty funky and he said, "You know what? It's gonna add to the wine. Just put it in there."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Andy Erickson:
And so, we would... You know, it's just a different kind of, uh, philosophy that when you put it all back together again, it creates this really complex experience for whoever's having the wine. It was, it was a pretty cool way to, to, uh, come into the industry. So-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, great start.
Andy Erickson:
... did that-
Doug Shafer:
Great start.
Andy Erickson:
... did that for about a year. Unfortunately it was only a year and John announced right at the end of my year that he was leaving.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
Um, but that's not why I left. I, I ended up... And this is kind of a- it's kind of a funny little, uh, detour, but so, somehow someone had, uh, gotten word to a guy named Alain Fouquet. Do you... You know Alain Fouquet? He-
Doug Shafer:
Yes, yes.
Andy Erickson:
He was the Master Cooper at Seguin Moreau, which was a very successful French cooperage and a barrel company, uh, in Cognac. And Alain had come over here, I think in the late '70s or early '80s. He was, he was second or third generation Master Cooper. No, no English really, but they sent him over here to see what was going on in California, right? And he ended up building this incredible business.
And anyway, he found out that I had been in South America, and he had this idea that he wanted to start a cooperage in Chile. So he through some people, got in touch with me, and we ended up talking about this idea that I'd come and start working for him. And then in a year, I would go down to Chile and help his start this small cooperage. And I was like, "Wow, that sounds pretty fun. You know-
I have a good sense of adventure." And so, I, I signed up for that and, um, you'll probably remember this, but not my experience, but you'll remember that Alain had a stroke, um, or maybe you don't know, but I-
Doug Shafer:
I didn't, I didn't.
Andy Erickson:
So, I started working for him in about 1996, I think. And uh, so we had- I had this plan. I was gonna work, you know, in the cooperage, in the office, learn everything, and then, you know, go down South and do something cool. And then a few months into it, he ended up having a stroke. So the-
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Andy Erickson:
... French, French flew over, put everything on hold, and, uh, I became... You know, they were like, "Oh, you have some marketing experience. You should be the guy that goes and promotes the barrels." So, I had this job all of a sudden of, my job was to go anywhere except Napa Valley and find out what people were doing with (laughs), with wine barrels. So, I was-
Doug Shafer:
So, you were selling-
Andy Erickson:
... in-
Doug Shafer:
So, you went from working in the cellar at Newton to selling barrels, marketing barrels?
Andy Erickson:
Yeah. And the funny this is, at that point they were all "sold out". So I was... My job was to show up and meet with the winemaker and taste the wines and just sort of talk about what they were doing. And then, we would expect...
Andy Erickson:
... to an allocation later. Alain was awesome. He said, "Look, the best thing is, to do is never ask for the sale. Just go out there and start a relationship." And so, you know, it was great. I was in Russian River. I was going down to the Central Coast. I even went to Texas and upstate New York, and I went to South America and I-
Doug Shafer:
But you couldn't go ... Why couldn't-
Andy Erickson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... you ... Why couldn't you go to Napa?
Andy Erickson:
Well, they had somebody in Napa.
Doug Shafer:
Ah.
Andy Erickson:
I mean, we did a bunch of things in Napa together. But, um, anyway, it was a great experience. Because, I, my job was, I was a full-time taster, you know, of young wines. I would be tasting wines out of barrel with people and talk to them about it and-
Doug Shafer:
Wha-
Andy Erickson:
... pretty interesting, but-
Doug Shafer:
And plus y-
Andy Erickson:
... I did that for about a ye-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And plus, I'm interrupting. But plus, you knew enough after working for a year or so with a Kongsgaard of how to make wine. So every wine maker you're talking to, you're getting different takes on how they do this or how they do that. I mean, that would be pretty cool. I mean, uh-
Andy Erickson:
It was pretty cool.
Doug Shafer:
A- And j-
Andy Erickson:
Yeah. And then, uh-
Doug Shafer:
What an education.
Andy Erickson:
So it was almost two years I did that. And uh, in the meantime I met Annie, who's now my wife of, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, how-
Andy Erickson:
... 22 ... We just celebrated 22 years.
Doug Shafer:
Con-
Andy Erickson:
So that's pretty cool.
Doug Shafer:
Congratulations. And I know Annie well. But I don't know how you two met. So what's that story?
Andy Erickson:
Well, it's, it's pretty funny. Because when I went up for my interview, uh, at Newton Vineyard, all the young guys I knew were like, "Hey, there's this really cute young blonde girl who works up there. You know, you need to check that out."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
(laughs). So I, I went up there. And, there was no cute blonde girl that I saw, but I ended up, you know, really loving what was going on, and taking the job anyway. But, uh, apparently Annie had worked there for a couple of years. And, uh, she had left to go do some other things. But so I missed her by just a few months. But, um, anyway.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
A couple years later we met at, uh, at someone's barbecue in St. Helena we met. So, uh, that's just sort of how it was. And, uh-
Doug Shafer:
All right.
Andy Erickson:
... apparently it was mutual, 'cause that was almost exactly 25 years ago. So, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Andy Erickson:
Yeah, pretty cool. So back to, so it was about 1997, '98. I've been doing this, this barrel thing for a while. And-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... you know, I was with now with Annie, who we're getting kind of serious. And we were trying to figure out what our next move was. She was getting very into viticulture. So she came back to Napa and started working for Cathy Corison. So that was a really great-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andy Erickson:
... uh, place for her to land. 'Cause she really connected with Cathy. And she worked a couple of harvests for Cathy. But really fell in love with the vineyard. I mean, loved being outside in the open air and with the vines. I mean, if you know Annie, she's, uh, the ultimate green thumb. I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Andy Erickson:
... she's growing everything on our property. It's pretty awesome. Um, but back then we, we came up with this idea that we would take turns going back to school. And uh, she would study viticulture and I would study enology. And, and so that's what we did.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Andy Erickson:
So I applied to UC Davis. And, um, she went back and took the, uh, viticulture program at Napa Valley College with, uh, Steve Krebs. Which was a great program. And they, they still keep in touch. I mean, Steve said that she's the only person that ever got like a 100% on everything, 'cause she just loves it.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
And uh, so I went back to Davis. So I s- I started in '98. I went back to UC Davis to get a Master's degree. And I was, um, just very lucky to do that. I just sorta got to the point where I knew that I needed to go back to school. You know, I couldn't go from my, from the cellar to a barrel job. And then into some wine making position. There was just a lot of things I didn't know. So I went back to ... school. And, and uh, studied ... I was in Roger Bolton's lab. So we-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
... did, uh, studying phenolics and wine color, and tannin and how they interact and all that. And it was pretty interesting stuff. And it was cool because I, you know, I grew up with a lab nerd as a dad. And so, you know-
Doug Shafer:
That's true. Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
... I was totally into the lab stuff. And even got to do my, uh, my research, uh, at the Oakville Research station, which nobody in Davis seemed even know about. And this is a, a little lab right in the middle of a To Kalon vineyard, looking out at the monastery. And it's part of UC Davis. So I did that. And I worked a harvest at Spottswoode, 1999. It was the first year they, uh, had the new winery. And Rosemary -
Doug Shafer:
Oh, you worked-
Andy Erickson:
- was the-
Doug Shafer:
... oh, you worked with Rosemary. That's great.
Andy Erickson:
Yeah. So, uh, that was cool. 'Cause it was a brand new winery. And uh, Rosemary's very meticulous and organized. And so it was a pretty cool way to come back into it. You know, John's this very free-thinking, you know, philosopher type wine maker. And Mary, uh, Rosemary's a very, very rigid and very, uh, scientific. So that was-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... kinda cool.
Doug Shafer:
Right. She's very science. And a, and what you don't know is Rosemary and I were in viticulture classes together at UC Davis back many years ago.
Andy Erickson:
That's so cool.
Doug Shafer:
They, (laughs), ga- ...
Andy Erickson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It just goes on and on. Um, all right. So, um, so you went back.
Andy Erickson:
So f-
Doug Shafer:
... got your Master's what? A year, year and a half or two?
Andy Erickson:
So finished in 2000. And, uh, it's pretty funny. 'Cause, (laughs), Annie, Annie would say, you know ... We never moved away from Napa. So I was commuting up to Davis.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
I treated it like a job. You know, I'd go there in the morning and spend all day, and come back at night. And then I'd, you know, I'd go down in the basement on the computer, writing my thesis. And she would say like, "I didn't even know what the hell you were doing down there. And then all of a sudden you-"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
" ... you emerge one day with like a 150-page document." (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
So I did that. I got that done. And meanwhile, it's funny. I was, I was, um, bef- before all this, like in the ... You know, I first arrived in Napa. I somehow ended up in this tasting group with a bunch of older, more experienced wine makers. And that was really cool, because about once a month, we'd get together and taste wines from all over the world. And, uh, um, I'm forgetting some of the names tha- of the guys that were in it. But, um, Bob Levy was in it. And, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
... he was a great guy to get to know. And at that point he said, "Oh, you're going back to school. You should call me when you're done, because we're working on this new winery project. And we might need some help." So 2000, I called Bob and I said, "Hey, remember when you said to call you? Well, I'm done." And, uh, they were just, uh ... And I didn't even know anything really about Harlan Estate. I mean, it's-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... kind of an understatement. But, uh, they were just working on Harlan Estate. And, uh, Bob told me to where to meet him in Oakville. And I went up there and they were, they were building this winery up in the hills. And it's now the Bond Winery. But anyway-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... I met with Bob. And he said, "Yeah, I, I need somebody to come on board." So I ended up coming on board as Bob's assistant uh, winemaker up there.
Doug Shafer:
Right - Right at the beginning. Wow.
Andy Erickson:
Yeah. Well, the beginning. But it wasn't the beginning. Right? So I just got out of Davis, but I had some experience. And I had known Bob-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Andy Erickson:
... from tasting wines. And so went up there and, you know, the, the ... We were calling it back then the West Winery, which is now the Bond Winery.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
And we were making all the wines there. And it was, you know, it was under construction. So, uh, it wasn't fancy by any means.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
But we, we had all the equipment we needed. The other, the other winery was under construction. So I wasn't really much involved with that. But that was ... You know, it was Bob and me, and a couple other guys, and we were just making the wines up there. And, um, you know, Bob's, talk about meticulous.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
And connected to what he's doing. I mean, Bob is Mr. Precision. I mean, that was something to, uh, fall into. And so worked with him. And, uh, you know, it was not even a year when it was pretty clear that, um, it wasn't for me really. I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andy Erickson:
... I, uh, it was kind of lonely up there, (laughs), because there weren't-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
... a lot of other people up there. And, uh, you know, I wasn't going to be taking Bob's job.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
But, uh, it was a great opportunity. Um, but I ended up ... So Annie ... We'll rewind a little bit. Annie in the meantime, had gone from working for Cathy to going back to school, to then, uh, working for David Abreu. So Cathy at that point had been, uh, buying fruit from David.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
And Annie tasted the Cabernet Franc that had showed up on the crush pad one day and said, "Oh my God, where's this from? This is incredible." And Cathy said, "Oh, it's from this guy, David Abreu's vineyard." And David showed up one day at Cathy's winery. This was back when David would actually deliver the grapes. You know,I mean?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
So he pulled up in the truck one day, and he and Annie started talking, and they hit it off. And she ended up working for him for 12 years as his viticulturist. But so 2000, um, I'm working at Harlan. Uh, Annie's working for David. There's a lot of new vineyards being planted and-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andy Erickson:
... things being developed. And, and, uh, the Staglin family was looking for somebody to come onboard and be their winemaker. Um, they had been, you know, custom crushing for years at Napa Wine Company. And they had a new winery that they were about to start.
Doug Shafer:
Right. And t-
Andy Erickson:
Or they had already started.
Doug Shafer:
And, and David grew their ... David took care of their grapes. Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
I think David -
Doug Shafer:
Or Annie probably did.
Andy Erickson:
... grapes.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Okay.
Andy Erickson:
And Annie was involved. So I went and talked to them, and ended up becoming their winemaker in 2001. So that was a ... pretty amazing. Um, they, I would say they, they took a chance on me, because I, you know, I wasn't young. You know, I mean, I was, I guess, close to 30 years or, ba- at this point, or somewhere around 30. But, um, they took a chance and I came on board. And helped them finish the winery. And, you know, 2001 and 2002 vintages we made in the new winery. And just pretty great experience.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Andy Erickson:
They're such good people too.
Doug Shafer:
They're great. And, and their, their wines were, you know, dynamite right out of the gate. So nice job, winemaker.
Andy Erickson:
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So, uh, you know, it was just ... Th- they gave me all the tools I needed. We had, I mean, David taking care of the vineyard. The vineyard's got great pedigree anyway. You know, it's got the old BV heritage. And so, uh, did that for two vintages, uh, 2001 in 2002. And they're such great people. I mean, they're still like family. You know, we see them. And, and Shannon actually, Shannon Staglin, who now runs the winery. She was just out of college, 2002. She was my harvest intern.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
Which is so funny. And I joke that, uh, I'm the reason that she went back to business school, because, (laughs)-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
... she came in and I basically warned her like, "As long as you know this is mostly just cleaning things and moving liquid around."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
And she was like, "Oh yeah, that's fine." And, um, you know, being a harvest intern in a brand new winery, it was a lot of work. We had fun together.
Doug Shafer:
I, I think I had ... We had, uh, the two of them, Shari and Shannon in here on the podcast. And I think I remember her talking about that. I think she said something about-
Andy Erickson:
Oh, that's funny.
Doug Shafer:
I think she made the comment about, "Yeah. I realized cellar, the cellar angle wasn't the way for me. I wanted to go in the business marketing side." So I think she, I think I remember that.
Andy Erickson:
Yeah, it's great. And we're still close. And, uh, wi- with the whole family. But in those two years, you know, Annie and I had two kids. And that's when you-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, wow.
Andy Erickson:
That's when you start thinking, "Okay, what are we really doing here?"
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
And, uh, you know, also there were all these really cool new projects happening. I mean, tho- those years, um, really from the late 90s through the whole 2000s, there were so many new wineries coming into Valley, new people planting vineyards-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andy Erickson:
... and starting small wineries. And I was starting to get phone calls from people and, "Hey, we're looking for a consulting winemaker." And ... so, you know, after many discussions with the Staglins, it, you know, we pretty much decided that, you know, if I was gonna do that, I was gonna do that. Because-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Andy Erickson:
... if I was gonna stay with them, I was gonna stay with them. So took a leap and, and started ... We started our own winery, uh, our own wine label then, Favia.
Doug Shafer:
Favia, which is-
Andy Erickson:
Yeah. And also I started consulting. So I took on a few things. And-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
... and yeah, never looked back. And, uh, it's been a pretty crazy ride in, uh, in a good way. It's been a lot of fun.
Doug Shafer:
So you've been ... So at that point you became ... Well, it's, you've got your own brand, and then you're consulting for others. So, so who were some of your, uh, first clients?
Andy Erickson:
Well, the first one that really kind of made me say, "Yes," was, uh, Ovid, so way up on Pritchard Hill.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andy Erickson:
Um, and I remember going up there a couple years before, I met the owners and they were talking about a, building a winery. But so David Abreu developed this vineyard. So this is way up on the top of the plateau up there where you have Colgin, and now Continuum, and Ovid. And, and these were all brand new developments up there. But I remember going up when Annie was developing the vineyard. And it was, it was incredible. I mean, it's, it was like Mars. I mean this red dust and-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... giant rocks, and machinery just working this thing. And anyway, a couple of years later, um, I met, uh, Mark Nelson and Danna Johnson, who are the proprietors, or were the proprietors back then. And through the Kongsgaards actually, which is funny. So they're-
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Andy Erickson:
... they're big classical music people. And they were involved in the Chamber of Music, uh, in Napa. And we started talking. And I drove up there. And at this point the vineyard was just, uh, you know, two buds to the ground-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... brand new, never produced anything. And, and I remember driving up there thinking, "Oh my gosh, I gotta do this. This is going to be incredible."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
And so, just signed up. And, uh, that was my first consulting project. So you talk about people taking a chance. I mean, here I am. I was just the winemaker at Staglin for two years.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
And, uh, come on board. And so that, that was a lot of fun. I mean, I was there for 15 years. We, we built -
Doug Shafer:
Wow. I did, I didn't know you there for 15 years.
Andy Erickson:
Yeah. I just, um ... You know, it changed hands. It's sold to the Duncan family.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
Another great family. Um, stayed on a short time. But then it was, you know, clear to just let them take it and run with it.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Andy Erickson:
Um, but yeah, 15 years from basically dirt to what you see now.
Doug Shafer:
To some-
Andy Erickson:
Which, uh-
Doug Shafer:
... fantastic wines.
Andy Erickson:
Great wines and great place. Beautiful. And so that was one. And then, um, Arietta Wines. So this is another, uh, kind of full circle thing. So Arietta, um, when I was at Newton, uh, we had 1800 barrels of red wine in the cellar at Newton. And we would rack all the barrels once a quarter. So that meant like-
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Andy Erickson:
... one out of every three months, I was-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
... just down in the cave, like racking barrel to barrel.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
And, uh, there were ... Of all those, there were five barrels of wine that I just thought, "Oh my God, what is this?"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
And, uh, it turned out it was the Cabernet Franc from Hudson Vineyards. Which is now, uh, the H Block, Hudson Vineyards, Arietta red wine. So when John left Newton, that's the one thing he said he wanted to go with him was that Cabernet Franc. And so that's how he started Arietta-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
... back in 1996. So fast forward to 2004, and John, uh, was going to s- build his winery. And he and Fritz Hatton were partners in Arietta. So he was going to buy out Fritz. And they wanted a new winemaker, so they asked me. And I said, "Yes, I'm not stupid." So I took that-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
... over in 2004. And then a new winery called Dancing Hare's Vineyard, which is up in St. Helena, a little project that Abreu was also doing. I also, uh, consulted for Hartwell Vineyards-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
... for a few years, uh, in, in Stag's Leap. And then, uh, was introduced to, um ... It's pretty funny, a viteral- vi- viticultural consultant kept telling me others, "These guys in Santa Barbara that are doing something, you should, uh, you should meet with them." And I said, "Well, there's a lot of great things happening in Napa. I think I, I'm pretty busy here."
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
But they would say, "No, no, you got to meet these guys." So I finally went down there. Saw what they were doing. It was, uh, Charles Banks and some partners, including Stan Kroenke, who now owns Screaming Eagle. But, um, went down there, just sort of saw that these guys are really serious about what they were doing. Uh, and it's still uh, it's a great property. Jonata.
Doug Shafer:
Jonata. Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
Stan, Stan owns the property now outright. But, um, decided to help them out. We, we put a team together, and I consulted for them. And it was pretty-
Doug Shafer:
So-
Andy Erickson:
... crazy. Because at ... Go ahead.
Doug Shafer:
It sounds like Andy, I got interrupted. So it sounds like you're consulting with like, at the most, how many different wineries at the same time do you think? Four, five, six?
Andy Erickson:
At that time?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
At that time pretty quickly it was four.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. All right. So it's not as much as I thought.
Andy Erickson:
And all-
Doug Shafer:
I see.
Andy Erickson:
... pretty small.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
And so I made a decision early on that I ... And this was, has created some interesting side, (laughs)-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
... notes in my life, is that I wanted people who are committed to having an estate winery and an estate vineyard. And so a lot of these places have their own ... Well, everybody except for Arietta has their own winery and vineyard. So it's a lot of things to juggle. But I, you know, it's not like I wanna be making 20 different wines. That would be really difficult. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
So um-
Doug Shafer:
Well, the, at … if you're consulting with four or five different properties. And you know, you're working with me, and then you're also working with Jim down the road. You know, are you giving me this good a- as advice that you're giving Jim? Or, you know, does he get in a better deal? I mean, is there jealousy? "Someone's getting higher scores than I am," that type of thing? I mean, you ever run into that?
Andy Erickson:
Well, I think, uh, luckily not really. I mean-
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Andy Erickson:
... and especially because these are all estate properties, right? So everyone has their own story. Everyone has their own vision of what they want to do. Everyone has their own commitment. I mean, I'm not going to prioritize one client over the other. I mean, we're all committed to making, you know, the best wine we can, which is a year round endeavor. Right?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
I mean, we're out there talking about the pruning. We're out there talking about the drainage and the soils. We're out there talking about whether we need to graft over this block, 'cause it's never made the blend. We, we're, you know, at every step, the thinning, the irrigation, the harvest, the fermentations, the blending. I mean-
Doug Shafer:
It's true.
Andy Erickson:
... we're, uh, we're-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
... trying to make sure we're making the same ... The right decisions every single time. And, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Depending on-
Andy Erickson:
And that does-
Doug Shafer:
... the location. Yeah. I'm interrupting, because I'm just thinking about what we do here. It's like, you know, let's say we're both making wines, but your place is over there and my place is over here. What's, it's just, it's two different sets of, uh, ingredients and, and situations. So it's different from the get-go. And you s- you maximize what each place does. I th- that's wat it sounds like-
Andy Erickson:
Yeah. That's right.
Doug Shafer:
... what you're doing. Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
And, um-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
You know, if, if your neighbor has great Merlot for example, that doesn't mean that you're going to grow great Merlot.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andy Erickson:
You know, I mean, e- you can learn a lot by what your neighbors are doing. But I don't think that, uh, I don't think there are many secrets out there. There's not a secret formula. You know? That's, when you have conversations with, with people early on. And you might think you're going to work together, it, it's pretty easy when you get into the conversations that it's more about a commitment than it is about any secret formula, right? I mean, it's-
Doug Shafer:
Well, I think, I think we all think we have secrets. But they're the same ones. We just haven't told each other.
Andy Erickson:
(laughs). Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
So when we go out ... and have dinner, we have two or three bottles of wine, we can te- share our secrets, and they'll be the same thing probably.
Andy Erickson:
Yeah. That's the-
Doug Shafer:
Um-
Andy Erickson:
... fun part about-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
... harvest is as soon as the fruit starts coming in, everybody goes on blackout. Right? You-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
... can't get anybody on the phone, 'cause-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
And it's not like we're hiding secrets. It's just like, "I've got my thing going on."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
"You got your thing going on."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. We're all busy.
Andy Erickson:
But, yeah, the rest of the year, you, we share ideas. And-
Andy Erickson:
It's a, it's a great community as you know.
Doug Shafer:
It's fun. So tell me about, um, being a consulting winemaker, 'cause most of the consultants that you work with, do they have like a quote, "Winemaker," on-site doing the day-to-day? Is that how that works?
Andy Erickson:
Well, it kinda depends on the size of the winery and-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
... the situation. I mean, and, and you know, a lot of the clients I've been with for many years. So like for example, at Dalla Valle Vineyards when I started there back in 2007, it was really just me and my assistant sort of doing everything. But now, you know, it's been, this is my 14th vintage with them. And-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Andy Erickson:
... Maya's come back and she's taken over the winery. And so I'm e- more in and out of there. A- but a bigger winery, you know, uh, we would have an on-site winemaker. And uh, you know, I'm more of a consultant. If it's a startup thing, it's more of a deep dive, you know? And, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andy Erickson:
... you know, once you get things going, it's, it, it sort of becomes a well-oiled machine, right? If you have things in place.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
Um, so I'd say the relationship is, is different. But I'm involved in all the aspects of what's going on. So it's, it's really fun. And it's, it's, it's funny, because, you know, I've always dreamed of having my own winery, and, and now we do. Um, and it's great. Uh, we have ... We bought the old, it's called the Antonio Carboni Winery and Italian Gardens back from the 1880s. It's a really cool piece of history in Coombsville. Um, and so we have our Favia wines here. We live here, make the wines here. And so in the back of my mind, I always thought, "Oh, I'll start to scale back on the consulting stuff." But the fact is, there's, there's so many cool things happening in the Valley. And I, you know, I love being a part of it. And I, I have fun with it. So-
Doug Shafer:
Well, it keeps you going. It keeps the juices going.
Andy Erickson:
Yeah. It does, and you, you get to see a lot of different things and work with different people. And it just, it, it makes it very rewarding. It's, it's, it's pretty cool.
Doug Shafer:
And I, and I'm with you. And I gotta ask you, 'cause you s- I think I interrupted your train of thought. You're talking about, uh, Santa Barbara and Jonata working with those guys. And that led to something else up here, I think, right?
Andy Erickson:
Yes. So the-
Doug Shafer:
A little, (laughs).
Andy Erickson:
The, the crazy thing was back then, the conversation was, "Well, if it works out, maybe we'll do something in Napa someday."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs). Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
And so I thought, "Okay, great." And so, you know, I was once a month going down to Santa Barbara. And things were going well. And so that started in 2004. So I guess it didn't take long. I mean, it seemed like a long time at the time. But a- you know, about 18 months later, I get a phone call from Charles saying, "Hey, I need you to look at some numbers. 'Cause, uh, you know, maybe we'll buy Screaming Eagle." And I was like-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
... "Yeah, whatever."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughs).
Andy Erickson:
You know, lo- ... And just, you know, you can't look at the numbers on something like that.
Doug Shafer:
No.
Andy Erickson:
It just doesn't really tell a story. So I just said, you know, "This doesn't make any sense, but that would be great." (laughs). So-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
... um-
Doug Shafer:
As long as he's cutting the check at you.
Andy Erickson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
And so, uh, I literally get a phone call. I think it was March of 2006. I get a phone call saying, "Hey, we closed escrow last night. It's incredible. I got the keys. We bought Screaming Eagle." And I just thought, "Oh my God, w- what?"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
And I was on the Silverado Trail. I just turned around in my car, drove straight there. I had never been on the property before. So, um, drove in. It was kind of a surreal moment. I'm there, it was me and Annie, uh, Charles, Stan, David Abreu showed up. Why not?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, why ... (laughs).
Andy Erickson:
And uh, we got a thief out, and we started tasting some barrels and-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
... walking through the vineyard. And-
Doug Shafer:
You just went right-
Andy Erickson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... at ... You went right after it right away. I ga- I love that.
Andy Erickson:
Well, I mean-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
But I tell you, at the time I said, "Look, you guys are crazy. You can't change anything here. You gotta, you gotta keep Heidi. You gotta, you gotta keep everything the same." It was just too much mojo.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
And, uh, and they said, "No, we want you to do it." And I just thought, "Oh my God, this is, this is going to kill me." (laughs). I mean-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
... it was, it was pretty daunting. But yeah, I stepped in there in the spring of 2006. And we, we started doing it. I mean, what an incredible place. Um, most people think of it as a brand, right? But it's, it's this little hidden gem of a vineyard that people drive by every day. And-
Doug Shafer:
Yep.
Andy Erickson:
... don't realize it's there.
Doug Shafer:
It's beautiful. I drive by it ... twice a day. Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
Right in that sweet spot in Oakville. And you know, it was ... The vineyard, a lot of it had to be replanted. And, um, we had to keep the wine going. But it was a really cool project. I mean, we, we brought in ... We brought in a viticultural consultant. And, and we must have dug 75 soil pits with Bob Gallagher from Crop Care. I don't know if you've worked with Bob. But he's awesome.
Doug Shafer:
I do. And I, I actually do remember seeing those, (laughs), pits being dug. It's like every day, it's like, "What are they doing out there?" You know.
Andy Erickson:
Oh, and, and Jean. So Jean Phillips-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... was the, uh, original owner. And she had thought that there was this one little hillside that produced the best wines. And you know, the rest of it, she was selling the grapes. So we dug all these soil pits and did all this analysis. And Bob Gallagher said, "I think this is the first time in my career where I, where I could pretty much recommend not doing anything-"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs). Wow.
Andy Erickson:
" ... to the vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Andy Erickson:
And it turns out that most of that property is A to A plus. And so it was just really fun to, to help build a proper winery. There was never really a proper winery there.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
Um, replanting the vineyards, and just sort of putting it on a footing as like a first growth estate sort of a thing, rather than just a, a brand.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andy Erickson:
And that was amazing. You know, no one ever visits there. So it wasn't like there was any spotlight in that way. I mean, we were just there quietly doing our thing. And great crew. The whole crew is still there. Um, Nick Gislason who I hired straight out of Davis to be my assistant. He's still there as a winemaker. It's great. I have a great relationship with him. But, um, you know, the partnership fell apart. And-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... I decided to do something else. And it led me to some other things, which is great. Uh, I'm, um, it led me to Mayacamas, which -
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, what happened with ... Yeah. I remember that. What happened with Mayacamas. Great property-
Andy Erickson:
So-
Doug Shafer:
... up there on the-
Andy Erickson:
It's an incredible property. And, uh, so even when, uh, Charles was still involved in Screaming Eagle, Bob Travers was, you know, thinking of selling. He was getting older. And, um, the winery and vineyards really needed a redo up at Mayacamas. And so the conversation started with, with Bob Travers. And it was sort of on again, off again. He had some things going on in his life, and his wife passed away and some other things. So it sort of went quiet for a while that, um, I would be the guy to go up there and go through the vineyards with Bob. And talk to Bob and taste the wines.
And, you know, eventually that came together. And, and that is such a great iconic historic Napa property. And it's been an incredible thing to be a part of. I mean, this is, you know, a winery from the 1890s. And uh, I'm sorry, 1880s. 1889. And it's got such an incredible history. And it be- and it's also way on the top of Mount Veeder. I mean, the guy that showed up there and thought, "Oh, I'll just plant a vineyard here." I mean-
Doug Shafer:
"Here." Yeah. Back in-
Andy Erickson:
He was Swiss. So apparently the Swiss, you know, driving up to-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
... 2,500 feet through the woods is no big deal for-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
... a Swiss person.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
But, uh, you know, all the vineyards up there, even though it's hundreds of acres of property, there's only about 50 acres planted. And they're all great soils, faith- facing South and Southwest, which is what you want up there. So, you know, they've always done it right. And so ... it just-
Doug Shafer:
He- How fun to be a part of that. That's really neat.
Andy Erickson:
It's great. And it's also a style of wine that is different from what a lot of people are doing in Napa, in the la-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andy Erickson:
... especially the past 15, 20 years, including myself. And so it's been fun to, to just say, "We're not going to change the style. We're just going to improve on it." And you know, the wines are pretty rugged, you know, they're tannic, they're big.
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Andy Erickson:
And they age a long time. And so we've kept that style. So that's been really fun. And it's just, it feels good to, to just sort of polish the old gem up there.
Doug Shafer:
I like it. I like it. You are, you are, you are a Renaissance man, my friend. And now under the category of the hits keep coming, it's 2015, you get a call from Constellation, who owns Robert Mondavi, what was that call all about?
Andy Erickson:
Oh, yeah. That, and that was-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
... completely unexpected.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Andy Erickson:
And, uh, so yeah. That, that's a good segue, because I'm, I'm sort of a Napa history buff. I mean, I always think about how incredible it would be to be around Napa in the 1890s.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
And when you think of some of the things that were happening back then, I mean the Greystone, and what's now Far Niente, and Mayacamas, and even our little winery. And -
Doug Shafer:
A lot of wineries. Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
And Krug, and all these cool properties. Um, you know, and then it went, all went to nothing with Prohibition.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andy Erickson:
But back in the 1870s through the early 1900s, To Kalon Vineyard was, was renowned all over the country as being, you know, some of the best wines in California. So everyone knows the recent history and-and how great those wines are, you know, and a lot of thanks goes to Andy Beckstoffer for really- for really, uh, doing a great job and having small producers and they are making great wines. But the vineyard itself which is, you know, close to 500 acres-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... uh, most of that's owned by Constellation, uh, through Mondavi and, uh, they called me, and thank God I returned the phone call. I-I actually-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Andy Erickson:
... I didn't at first and someone called back and said, “Hey, come on, let's just talk.” So I ... it was- it only took about two minutes f-for me to say Yes because their-their concept was, "We want to take the To Kalon vineyard and we want to elevate it to its own status and make a, you know, a small production, very high-end wine from To Kalon and-and revive the old imagery and ephemera and stories from the 1890s." And I just ... I love that stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
So I was all over it. So it's been incredible. Basically I have free rein in the vineyard. Uh, so they started in-in 2016 was the first vintage.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
So really, just taking the vineyard map and, uh, tasting all the wines that Genevieve had made the year before. So Genevieve is the winemaker from Mondavi.
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Andy Erickson:
Has been there for years. And, uh, you know, it's a big vineyard so I just had all these glasses of wine, tasting the wine, saying, “Oh, where's this from?” And I'd circle it on the map and then, “Where's this from?” And I'd- And then go on around, touring around, and-
Doug Shafer:
Man, how come you get to do this stuff?
Andy Erickson:
... taking out these blocks.
Doug Shafer:
Why don't you ... would you- would you call me up next time you do that so I can just kind of hang out next time?
Andy Erickson:
Let's do it.
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Andy Erickson:
Let's go for a ... well, we got to wait for a while.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
But let's go for a drive (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) There we go.
Andy Erickson:
Yeah, but when we started talking about this project, I just said, "Oh, my God. This is great." So, yeah, the idea is ... so the-the original property back in the day was the, uh, To Kalon Vineyard Company. And uh, and then the To Kalon Wine Company. And there was actually a big winery on the property of To Kalon that unfortunately like a lot of things in Napa burned down. Um, back in, I think, 1915 or something like that. And ... but before that, they had their own wine shops all over the country. They had To Kalon wine shops in D.C. and New Orleans and Chicago.
Doug Shafer:
Huh!
Andy Erickson:
And-And the branding and the this- just the look and feel of all the old labels and everything, it's so cool.
Doug Shafer:
Man, I didn't know that.
Andy Erickson:
So we've- We've revived that and, uh, and we started with just one wine and now we're going to have, with the ‘18 vintage, three different wines and I've got them, uh, planting more Cabernet Franc for me. That's my passion, it's Cabernet Franc, so we're going to be producing wine that's got a bunch of Cabernet Franc in it.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
So, yeah, that's been- that's been a good one.
Doug Shafer:
That's fun. So and then, coming back to-to the home ranch, you and Annie, what do you guys, uh, um ... so you got the Favia brand now. You've got Lev-Leviathan and Room. Tell me about those wines.
Andy Erickson:
So Leviathan, uh, started as a second wine to the Favia wines. Uh, and the Favia wines, as I said before, we love Cabernet Franc-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Andy Erickson:
... and it's-it's funny when Annie worked for David Abreu, uh, so back in the late 90's, David had four rows of these Cabernet Franc vines in his vineyard in Madrona and it was propagated from cuttings he had brought back from Bordeaux over the years-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Andy Erickson:
... which was pretty cool. And, uh, he said, "Oh, you guys should make this wine in your garage." So we- we made the wine in our garage 1998-99-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Andy Erickson:
2000 and I-I still have a few bottles of this but we, uh, we picked the clone that we liked the best and we created a block there in Madrona. We made the wine there for a few years. Uh, we make ... so we have two different Cabernet Franc-based wine. And then we made two Cabernet and Sauvignons. We have a Coombsville Cab and and Oakville cab.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
We've been down here in Coombsville for 15 years now, even before it had a name so, um, it's great now that it has an appellation name. Everybody thinks it's new and wants to know about it but-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Andy Erickson:
... we've been here for a while. Um, Leviathan we spun off and, uh, actually partnered with, Huneeus Now, I sold them the brand and um, opened them, keep that going so that's a-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
... that's a blended wine and that's got it's life going now. And then Rhone is an interesting project that we started which is really experimental wines that are not what we do for Favia. So we've done Riesling from the Marin Coast. We've done an Orange wine. We've done, you know, Grenache Rose. We've done all sorts of different wines and it's just kind of a fun thing. They're all one offs.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, fun.
Andy Erickson:
And then we created a ... yes, it is fun. And then we created a-a brand called Carboni. So-So named after the family that built the winery that's now ours. They built it back in the 1880s. So that's now, we make a Coombsville Chardonnay from the vines right here behind the winery. And then a-a red wine which is now our second wine to Favia. So that's-that's been pretty fun and great to revive the old name, too, and history.
Doug Shafer:
What a lineup! And then on top of that, you've got ... uh, you and Annie, you've got a new project? You're making tea? Or is that your new baby.
Andy Erickson:
Yeah, I can't- I can't take much credit for that except being the guy who, like, fixes irrigation leaks and, uh, you know, Rototills once in a while. But yeah, Annie, as I said, has probably the greenest thumb that I have ever know and she, uh, she's always loved tea. And we tried for years, actually, to grow camellias sinensis. That's the, uh, the actual tea plant that makes all green tea-
Doug Shafer:
Huh!
Andy Erickson:
... black tea, oolong tea, but it just doesn't grow in Napa. I think it's too dry.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Andy Erickson:
So sh-she created an herbal tea business so we’re growing all these organic herbs on the property and we have a-a drying room in the barn and-and it's just awesome stuff. So fresh organic herbs, we have lemon verbena, chamomile, mint, uh, shiso. She does all these different blends. We have a Greek mountain tea which is a really interesting tea that tastes just like green tea but has no caffeine. And this is something that Annie has always loved and we're-we're doing it.
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Andy Erickson:
It's a business. She has a website. She's selling it.
Doug Shafer:
What's the website? How-How can people get ahold of that.
Andy Erickson:
It's ... so erdatea.com. E-R-D-A. Erda is the first known word for mother Earth.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Andy Erickson:
And a pretty cool concept. And it's all grown right here on the property and they're delicious.
Doug Shafer:
Good. That's the tea now. How do folks find your wine? Because they need ... because, you know, Favia wines are gorgeous. That's what we drink in my house. How do- How could people buy them?
Andy Erickson:
So, pretty easy. It's faviawines.com, and, uh, yeah, you could sign up on the list or with what's going on now, we actually have some wine available on the website. Uh, and then, normally take visitors in the winery as well, Monday to-through Friday.
Doug Shafer:
Are you open to visitors now or you're holding off for a while?
Andy Erickson:
Not yet. We're holding off for a little while.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Andy Erickson:
But at some point we will.
Doug Shafer:
Good, good. All right, man. Um, you are a sweetheart for taking so much time today. Thanks so much. And man, it's finally good to hear your story. And I- And, you know, good old Hinsdale, you got to something to tell them.
Andy Erickson:
No, it's great to-to hear the connections. I mean, like I said, almost zero degrees of separation, right?
Doug Shafer:
I love it.
Andy Erickson:
It's great. Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
All right, man. You take care. If you can say Hi to Annie, give her a hug and I will see you around.
Andy Erickson:
Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
All right, thanks.
Andy Erickson:
Bye.
Doug Shafer:
Thanks, Andy. Bye, bye.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Doug Shafer, back with another episode of The Taste. And today, we've got a, a special guest, Robert Mark Kamen, who's written a bunch of great movies like Taps, the original Karate Kid films, Fifth Element, Le-Lethal Weapon 3, Transporter Films, A Walk In the Clouds, the Taken films, and on and on and on. In the middle of that, he's become one of Sonoma's top wine makers with his place, Kamen Estate Wines. So welcome, Robert.
Robert Kamen:
Hello, Doug.
Doug Shafer:
I've been looking forward to talking to you. You're making movies, you're making wine. I mean, how cool, how cool is your life?
Robert Kamen:
My life is very cool. Hold on, let me ask my wife. How cool is my life, Lonnie? "Pretty cool," she said.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
My life is my life. It's, uh... I've been doing movies and, uh, the vineyard for 40 years.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Robert Kamen:
I got the raw land that became my vineyard with my first screenwriting check and haven't looked back since, except on the canceled checks that, uh, seem to go into this endless piece of ground that I became obsessed with.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) And you and I, I think we've chatted before, but we have a connection, uh, through my son.
Robert Kamen:
Yes, we do.
Doug Shafer:
Which is pretty cool. Tell me about that. How'd that happen?
Robert Kamen:
He works for my friend, Lorenzo di Bonaventura, who, I've known for probably 35 years. Uh, when Lorenzo was working at Warner's. I did a number of, uh, screenplays with Lorenzo, and I find, low and behold, Steven Shafer is, is working for Lorenzo. And I had tried to use that leverage to pry Relentless Syrah out of his hands, and he tells me you only give him a bottle or two.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Yeah, I make all my kids pay for the wine.
Robert Kamen:
Hey, that's fantastic.
Doug Shafer:
Well, except for Christmas. They get a little extra at Christmas. But, uh, no, we-
Robert Kamen:
I've tried really hard. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
We'll, uh, we'll talk after this. I'll take care of you. I can set you up.
Robert Kamen:
Great.
Doug Shafer:
Good. So, uh, talk to me. Where... Your story. Where were you born? Wh-...
Robert Kamen:
Well, I was born in a city housing project in the Bronx. Um, and, uh, went to high school in New York, and, uh, went to University at NYU up in the Bronx. Then went to, uh, the University of Pennsylvania for graduate school where I did a PhD. Spent a bunch of time in Afghanistan. Came home, while I was doing my dissertation, I wrote a novel about Afghanistan. A cousin of mine knew a director who said I should turn the novel into a screenplay, which I did. And low and behold, six weeks later Warner Brothers bought it.
Doug Shafer:
Holy cats. So I need to roll it back. So growing up in the, in the Bronx, um, mom and dad? What were they into?
Robert Kamen:
Orthodox Judaism.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. (laughter)
Robert Kamen:
And my father was a CPA, and my mom was, um, a medical secretary.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
You know, it was... I grew up in a fairly religious house. But it was not, it was not confining at all, because we, I lived in a city housing project, and I spent most of my time in the streets with a bunch of ruffians.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
So I had a great balance of structure and chaos.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
It was wonderful.
Doug Shafer:
Now, was wine in the house, or alcohol? Beer, wine-
Robert Kamen:
No.
Doug Shafer:
Nothing?
Robert Kamen:
There was Manischewitz in the house, Doug.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
You ever drink Manischewitz?
Doug Shafer:
I, I have. I have in Chicago. That's what my dad used to drink.
Robert Kamen:
Oh, great. It's enough to make you not want to drink wine again.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Gets you into beer.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's pretty funny. You were in, um, Afghanistan. And what... so tell me again why you were there.
Robert Kamen:
In graduate school-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
I got a grant to spend a year with a bunch of nomads.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
And which I did, in 1971, '72.
Doug Shafer:
And so, you're how old? You're like, early 20s?
Robert Kamen:
Oh, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
I was 23... I was 23 years old.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
Uh, and I got on a camel in, um... When did I get on a camel? I got on a camel in June, and I got off the camel-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
In, um, Ap-April or May. And I just followed the, the migratory routes of these nomads for 11 months. Um-
Doug Shafer:
That must have been wild.
Robert Kamen:
And... it was wild. And, uh, two years later, I went back, and I spent six months in Waziristan. And during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, I ran a refugee relief program, so I got to go there even more. Um, and it... Afghanistan has played a large part in my life.
Doug Shafer:
Fascinating. And so were you writing at this time too?
Robert Kamen:
In '85, I was, when I was doing the refugee relief stuff, I was writing screenplays. I started, uh, I got my first movie made in 1979 with Taps.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
So I was deep into, uh, screenwriting at that point. In '71, '72, I was just writing academic stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Robert Kamen:
You know, papers and working on my dissertation for my PhD.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, and then so the wine thing kicked in when you came back, you came back to New York-
Robert Kamen:
So in probably '74, a-about '73, '74, I went into this wine shop, and I said to the... I was curious, and I said, "I'd like to learn about wine."
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
And the guy gave me, for $1000, for the entire year, kept giving me a case at a time of, um, first and second growth Bordeauxs. And I was getting Latours for $12.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
And, um-
Doug Shafer:
You, you gotta be kidding me.
Robert Kamen:
And I... Oh, no, no, no. My big kick is that I didn't buy mo-, a ton of these things 'cause I didn't know.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
But I was drinking '66 Latours and '64 Haut Brions and all this crazy stuff. And I drink wine, and I'd go back to the guy, and he'd say, "Well, what did you taste?" And I'd say, "Well, it was a little sour, and it was a little bitter." And he'd say, "No, that's this. This is this." And after a year, he taught me about, he taught me about wine. And I knew about wine. And, and then I just sort of took it from there.
Doug Shafer:
But look how-
Robert Kamen:
And then as my friends started making money, I was the wine guy.
Doug Shafer:
Look how you started. You started drinking first growths.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
I star-, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I started on, I started on-
Robert Kamen:
I started off drinking first growths.
Doug Shafer:
I started on Boone's Farm up on a beach in Michigan. Jeez.
Robert Kamen:
Right, exactly. (laughter)
Doug Shafer:
I mean, you know-
Robert Kamen:
Boone's Farm apple wine.
Doug Shafer:
Remember that? Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
I do, I remember it from 1971. (laughs) It's horrible.
Doug Shafer:
Boone's Farm, if I wanted to impress somebody, I got a bottle of, of Mateus. Remember Mateus?
Robert Kamen:
Mateus.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
Or, or one of those, uh, the woven baskets of Chianti for $2.
Doug Shafer:
Right. (laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So that was your that guy was your educator, and that, uh...
Robert Kamen:
Yeah, Sam. He was great. He was great.
Doug Shafer:
What was the name of his place? Was it called Sam's, or was it another place?
Robert Kamen:
It was called The Surrey.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
And it's no longer there. It's probably now a cashmere shop or something.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Robert Kamen:
You know, it was on Madison Avenue and 69th Street. And he was, he was great, 'cause he learned wine by going to Bordeaux during World War II and he, he drank with these guys. You know, these guys, they were poor. The war had devastated them.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
And, and he... and so they would, you know, anything in their cellar, he could drink. And for the right amount of chocolate, sugar, uh, or tobacco.
Doug Shafer:
He traded-
Robert Kamen:
And he did, and he learned all about it.
Doug Shafer:
Man, that's fascinating. So, so your education, your early wine education was mostly European, not, not California or the states.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah, I didn't know from California wine.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
I mean I, I didn't know from it for the longest time. And you know, the idea that, that I would end up here doing this is only because I came here to celebrate my first screenplay. And I was taken to a piece of land that overlooks the San Francisco Bay. And I l-, and I bought it for the view. I didn't buy it to go into the wine business.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Robert Kamen:
But I face the Monte Rosso vineyard, right?
Doug Shafer:
Which is beautiful.
Robert Kamen:
I face it. I'm looking at it, I'm looking at it right now.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Robert Kamen:
And I figured, "Oh, yeah. Oh, there's wine growing there." And I, and I had had the Louis Martini Cabs from that vineyard from the ‘50s.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
And I said, "If Louis can do it, I can do it."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughs) Well, Louis took, you know, the 70s... We moved out here in '73, and dad started making wine in '78. And even in the early 80s-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
When we tried to sell wine in New York, it was really tough because the-
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Whole, this whole country, especially East Coast, was very European centric on wine. So California wines were just coming on.
Robert Kamen:
And still is, and still is.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Good point. Good point.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah, and still is. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But I remember, uh, Dad, Dad wanted to plant a hillside vineyard, and no one was doing it. And he was friends with Louis -
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Louis Martini, and Louis said, "Come on. I'll take you over to Monte Rosso and show you how to do it." So they jumped in a truck and drove over and did it. And that, it's, I love this. That's great.
Robert Kamen:
So, so... the, the corollary story is when I bought the place, I met Phil Coturri who a-at the time was just hippie scum.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
He has since turned into the most valued organic wine, wine viticulturalist in northern California. And Phil learned how to do grape vines from a guy named Joe Miami who helped Louis Martini plant the Monte Rosso vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, I didn't know that.
Robert Kamen:
And our first cuttings... Oh, yeah. Joe Miami, now there's a name for you.
Doug Shafer:
There's a name.
Robert Kamen:
Joe Miami. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I'm thinking, I'm thinking that's gotta work its way into a screenplay somewhere. (laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Yeah. It's a great name. And, and so when we started, the first cuttings we have the, my first clones came from the cabernet over on Monte Rosso. So we still have, I have, uh, probably 12 acres left of original Monte Rosso clones that went from there... I'm looking at the Monte Rosso vineyard as we're talking.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Robert Kamen:
It went from there over to here, and I've had that for... 38 years now.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Robert Kamen:
Those clones.
Doug Shafer:
So Phil helped you plant the place. Was there a house on it or anything? Any development?
Robert Kamen:
No.
Doug Shafer:
It was just bare land.
Robert Kamen:
Doug, there was, it was raw land, 1500 feet up. No road. No water. No electricity.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. And you're living, you're living in New York or LA? At that time?
Robert Kamen:
At the time, Actually at the time, I was living between New York and Crested Butte, Colorado.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, all right. Fair enough.
Robert Kamen:
Uh, I had a place in Crested Butte, Colorado, and, um, and then when the screenplays kicked in, I started this insane commute between New York, LA, New York, LA, uh, Sonoma.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
And as time, time went on, um, I was a-all over the world writing screenplays.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
Going to every place. I was every place, and, you know, um... I spent a bunch of time in Paris. Um... because I was partnered up with a great French film director, Luc Besson, and we were writing all these movies together. And because of that, I started spending a lot of time in Chateau Neuf du Pape and got to be good friends with people there. And, um, I was friends with Jean-Louis Chav’s then girlfriend, now wife, Erin.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Kamen:
And I started spending weekends in Hermitage. And that's when I got turned on to Syrah, and that's when I planted Syrah. Um-
Doug Shafer:
Wow, so you-
Robert Kamen:
It's a good thing I didn't, I didn't spend... Oh, yes. And because I'm impulsive-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
I spent some time in Tuscany, and I came home and said, "I want to plant Sangiovese."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughter) Yeah, I-
Robert Kamen:
I was like, "I'll try anything!"
Doug Shafer:
I've heard that one before. My, my old man pulled that one on me back in '81. Um-
Robert Kamen:
Yeah, yeah. Sangiovese, sales-proof wine. It's great.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Um, I'm just, so in... pardon me for, you know, not being more tuned in, especially with my son in the business, I should know this. But as a screenwriter, like when they're, when they're shooting a film on location, do you have to be there? Are you on site?
Robert Kamen:
No. Uh, unless they specifically want me to be there, I try not to be there. Because what am I doing? If they need me, of course, I'm there. But most of the time, I try to stay away. My work is done.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
If they need additional lines, they can call me up. If they need structural work, that means I didn't do my job, and I have to be there. But I try to stay away. I try to stay here in Sonoma on the vineyard. I try to leave as little as possible.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
And now with Zooming... honestly, because I'm doing all my, all my business, all my work, all my, my meetings. Even when I'm pitching scripts, I'm doing it all on Zoom.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
And, uh, I don't have, I don't like leaving. We don't leave the property for days at a time. I mean it's terrible, but it's... when you come over, you'll see why. It's gorgeous, it's beautiful.
Doug Shafer:
No, no. I know the area. It's gorgeous. I don't blame you at all.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So you're busy, busy, busy. 'Cause you bought the land in '79, and you're-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
You're still cranking it out working, you know, your day job.
Robert Kamen:
Right. My day job, exactly.
Doug Shafer:
So did you start pla-, did you and Phil, did you and Phil start planting it right away? Did you wait a few years? You just-
Robert Kamen:
Right away.
Doug Shafer:
Right away.
Robert Kamen:
Well, it took, it took a year, it took a year to get the, uh... First of all, I bought 300 acres of land, and I didn't know it, but it had a provisional easement, it didn't have a permanent easement.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
And it took me a, a while to get a permanent easement, and then we had to build, um, almost two miles of road from the end of the county road... We're at the end of the end of this road, and then we had to build a road up here. Then after we built the road, then we brought in a drilling rig, and we drilled, uh, a way, a well. And then PG&E came in and put in two miles of poles. I'm the last electric pole before Napa in Sonoma.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Robert Kamen:
That's my claim to fame. But-
Doug Shafer:
Man-
Robert Kamen:
Um-
Doug Shafer:
This takes forever. This took years.
Robert Kamen:
Oh, it's fucking forever. It was ridiculous.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
A-and I just kept at it, because I, I wouldn't have... Doug, I don't know what I would have done without the screenwriting, 'cause the screenwriting provided all this dough.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
And all the money I got, I, I just kept putting into this place.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
And putting into this place.
Doug Shafer:
I'm with you. You're dumping the... So-
Robert Kamen:
With never thought of making wine.
Doug Shafer:
Was there a, was there a vision? I mean, you're dumping a ton of money-
Robert Kamen:
No.
Doug Shafer:
Into this thing. What, what was the endgame? What was the goal? Was there a dream?
Robert Kamen:
There was no goal.
Doug Shafer:
I love that.
Robert Kamen:
I, I suffer from-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
I suffer impulse control disorder. (laughter) That's it.
Doug Shafer:
You know, you know, I love it. You know, you gotta write a movie where there's not some, you know... You know, there's always a dream, there's always a goal. What if there's just... there is no dream, there is no goal. We're just, we're just going after it every day. (laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Yeah. It's, it... and that was honestly, that was truly true until, uh, we had a fire up here in 1996.
Doug Shafer:
I was gonna ask you about that.
Robert Kamen:
And it burned down... Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Because-
Robert Kamen:
It burned out, the Cavedale fire.
Doug Shafer:
Right, but before the fire, you made a, you wrote a movie. What was it, wa-, Walk in the Clouds, right?
Robert Kamen:
Walk in the Clouds, that's right. Right.
Doug Shafer:
And, so those of us who know that movie, a vineyard burns in it, right?
Robert Kamen:
I burned the vineyard down, because I needed, I needed a third act. I needed something big to happen, so... and I'm sitting up here writing it and I said, "I know. I'll burn the vineyard down."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
So I burn the vineyard down. Now, we shot it, and Dan Duckhorn had a Merlot vineyard, which is now Paraduxx. And we...
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right. It's, it's a half mile from me right here. It's right next door.
Robert Kamen:
Right. And we paid him a bunch of dough... he had phylloxera It was full of phylloxera.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
He was gonna pull it out. We put gas lines in. We torched the vines, and we pulled it out for him.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
And people... I go over to Napa, and people are saying, "Well, you know, vineyards don't burn." Well I'm farming for 16, for 16 years at that point. I know vineyards don't burn-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
But when my vineyard caught fire, what burned were the irrigation hoses. 'Cause the fire was so fast and so hot, it melted the irrigation hosing across the cambium layer of the vines. And it was August 1st. We were in full verasion of course. We were ripening, and as we were ripening, the vines are dying.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man. So-
Robert Kamen:
Same, at the same time.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. So what happened was... 'Cause you, you know, we've all said and, and to a certain extent, vineyards don't burn. However, you had this wildfire-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And the-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
The vines didn't catch fire, but the, the black rubber drip hose, to our listeners.
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Is, is hung right along the trunks of the vines. And so if that, that's on fire. That hot rubber was right next to the trunk of the vine and burned the trunk, which is the cambium layer, which is where all the nutrients come up the thing.
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And basically, so it was a slow death to the vines. Yeah?
Robert Kamen:
Right. As they were dying, the fruit was ripening.
Doug Shafer:
Oh... Oh...
Robert Kamen:
It was really sad.
Doug Shafer:
It's a heartbreaker.
Robert Kamen:
That's the thing that... so, so I went to PG&E, and I tried to get them to pay me. Now I'm selling my grapes at that point to Ferrari-Carano and Richard Arrowood.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
For $2300 a ton.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
Which at the time was good money. And, um, and they won't pay me that money. They say, "This is only worth $400 a ton. We'll give you $400 for two years of growth." I found this great lawyer, um, Rod Kerr and he sued them. And, and proved ... I mean, all these people from Napa came up to, to be the witnesses for the insurance company. And they all said, "This guy has an amazing vineyard. It was '96. I had a 16 year old organic vineyard 1500 feet above sea level.
Doug Shafer:
Perfect.
Robert Kamen:
And there weren't many of those around.
Doug Shafer:
No.
Robert Kamen:
Right?
Doug Shafer:
Not at all. Not then.
Robert Kamen:
No.
Doug Shafer:
Uh-uh. And was-
Robert Kamen:
So I have a friend... I have a friend. I have a very good friend, very famous. Jean-Georges Vongerichten.
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Robert Kamen:
Jean-Georges comes up to the vineyard, and he says, "Well this is a great vineyard, you must make wine." And I said, "I'm a screenwriter. I'm, you know, growing grapes. I like having a vineyard." He told me he would sell my wine in his restaurants if I made wine. So I made 500 cases of wine.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
He had three restaurants. He took 50 cases of wine. I said, "You said you'd sell the wine." He said, "Why'd you make so much?"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
He said, "I have three French restaurants. This is California cabernet."
Doug Shafer:
Well-
Robert Kamen:
And I was in, and that's how I got in the wine business. And Elizabeth Pressler-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Robert Kamen:
You know Elizabeth, right?
Doug Shafer:
I do. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Kamen:
Elizabeth was doing marketing. She helped me kind of get my, jumpstart my business by sending me around the country, uh, selling wine. I mean, I was Willy Loman with a wine bag. I didn't know what I was doing. And she said, "You gotta introduce yourself to the world." And so, here I am (laughter) writing screenplays full time, running around the country to every small... anybody who would talk to me. I didn't know what the hell I was doing. And that's how I got in the wine business.
Doug Shafer:
And did you... okay, 'cause I was gonna ask you about that. Because you were a grower for years and years and years, beautiful vineyard.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Being a grower is great.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know, once the grapes are picked, you can kinda relax a little bit. You don't, you don't have to get on the plane. You don't have to call in accounts.
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And all of a sudden-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause of your buddy, your chef buddy who wouldn't buy all the wine, talk to... You know, why didn't anybody try to talk you out of it? 'Cause it's, it's a tough gig. You know that. We all do.
Robert Kamen:
Doug, I didn't know it until I started doing it. (laughter)
Doug Shafer:
Oh, no... Oh. You know, I, I've... it reminds me of a story. I had a great grower, a neighbor, and, um, great vineyard. We bought his grapes, and he actually really wanted to start making his own wine. I said... you know, I was serious about it. I said... He says, "Can you tell me about it?" I said, "Happy to. Let's have a cup of coffee, spend an hour."
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
"I'll tell you, I'll tell you everything I know about the business, but I'm gonna warn you." He said, "What?" I said, "When we're done talking, you're probably not gonna do this." He said, "No, no. It's gonna be good."
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And we talked for an hour-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And he looked at me, and he said, "Oh my goodness, I had no idea." I said-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
I like you. You're a good guy. I'm gonna give it to you straight, because this is what's ahead of you." And he, he never made wine. (laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Right. Right. Do you want to drive from Cleveland to Cincinnati in January through a snow storm, stopping off at every small town and city in between to try to convince them to take your California cabernet? No. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
And when it's me and six other guys right behind you, coming in the door with another cabernet.
Robert Kamen:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Yeah. Well I did this for nine, I did it for nine years. It was a great education. It really killed me, because I'm writing full time.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
You know, I'm running around selling wine in the day, and then I come back to a hotel room in Dayton, Ohio, and I'm writing screenplays til 2:00 in the morning.
Doug Shafer:
Oh. And-
Robert Kamen:
I'm doing this, I'm doing this.
Doug Shafer:
And do you have family then too? Were you married, kids?
Robert Kamen:
Yeah. I had, I had, um... what did I have at that time? I had one, two, I had three ki-, I had three kids. I still have three kids, but they're older. And I had a family, and they were parked in New York. And I was, between the screenwriting and the wine selling, I was not home a lot. I was running around. I'd go from, you know, through the Mid-Atlantic states, and then go to Florida, and then go here, and then do that.
Robert Kamen:
And I'm doing this, and I, I got burned out on it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
And that's when we transitioned to direct to consumer.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, good.
Robert Kamen:
'Cause I couldn't do it anymore. I just couldn't do it.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. It's tough. It's tough. We need help.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know, and then you got to amp up and make more wine to, you know, pay people to help you out. So, so when did you make the move to-
Robert Kamen:
Yeah, well when I-
Doug Shafer:
De-... So you're basically 100% direct to consumer?
Robert Kamen:
Uh, no. We're... No, because I do believe in the market.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
I believe it's free advertising, if your wine is on a list somewhere.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Kamen:
I do believe that. So we're 80% direct.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
I'm just talking revenues. We're 80% direct to consumer, 20% in, in the market. Now we used to be the other way around, and I was losing a ton of money. But you know this.
Doug Shafer:
Yes, yes.
Robert Kamen:
You know how this works.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
It took me a while, it took me a while to figure it out. And the thing that saved me was that I always had a great passion for the land. I was always... to me this was not a commodity to be sold to anybody. When I hooked up with Eli-, Elizabeth Pressler, the first thing she said... She said, "What do you want to do? Do you want to build this to sell it?" I said, "Sell it? This is like my life."
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
"This land is my life. I-I-I'm so connected to this property. I'm not selling this. What are you, insane? I just want to make it pay for itself. If I just break even, I'll be so happy." And that took a while... that took quite a while, as you know. Listen, it took quite a while.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughs)
Robert Kamen:
And now we're-
Doug Shafer:
I do know.
Robert Kamen:
Now we're in a good place.
Doug Shafer:
That's good, so-
Robert Kamen:
Except Coronavirus is killing us, but-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I know. It's, it's hurting everybody. So your original planting before the fire, was it all cabernet? All 40 acres?
Robert Kamen:
Well... I, in 1980... 5, I was in Tuscany, and I had my first bottle of Solaia, and I called Phillip and said, "We have to plant Sangiovese. I want to make a super Tuscan."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
And so of course, he tried to talk me out of it, and I insisted. So we planted Sangiovese. And, uh, we made a super Tuscan. And, uh... (laughs) And I was so sorry I did it, because we can't sell it. Why would I want to have a California Sangiovese on my table for the same price I can have a great Brunello?
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right. Uh-
Robert Kamen:
Right?
Doug Shafer:
I've got a similar experience. Dad went to Tuscany in '88.
Robert Kamen:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Felt... you don't know this story. Fell in love with Sangiovese, came back... I-I've, some people have heard this before, so I'm repeating it, but you need to hear it. Walks in the lab, goes to Elias and me, and goes, "I've got our next wine, guys. It's, it's Sangiovese."
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And I said, I swear to goodness, I said, "Sange- what?" This is 1988.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And he goes, he goes, "Doug, Chianti." I looked at Elias, and I go, "Chianti, straw basket, right?"
Robert Kamen:
Right. Right, right.
Doug Shafer:
And Dad looks at Elias and goes, "Jesus Christ. I paid this kid, I paid for his education in wine (laughs) at UC Davis, and he doesn't know what Sangiovese is." So anyway, we did it. We made it. We did it for 10 years. It was a Cabernet-Sangiovese blend, and we were pretty successful, and I'm convinced the reason it was fairly successful was we didn't call it Sangiovese. We called it Firebreak, because it was named after-
Robert Kamen:
There you go, Firebreak. I remember it. Right.
Doug Shafer:
It was named after this vineyard around his house that was a vineyard... here's an example. There was a wildfire in '81, burned this hill around his house. The house didn't burn, or it tried, and um... Oh, pardon me, it wasn't planted. We set back fire, saved the house. Next day, my mom realized that vineyards don't burn, so she said to my dad, "Plant this hill and plant it now." He was ecstatic about it, so we planted Sangiovese and it was a natural fire break for their house.
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
So we called the vineyard Firebreak.
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Called the wine Firebreak. Did it for 10 years. Loved it, and, um, realized we weren't, couldn't, you know, change the world, and switched over to cabernet and Syrah, which does better in our spot than Sangiovese. So we, we threw in the towel.
Robert Kamen:
Welcome to my life.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. We got a similar, similar story there.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah. Did the same thing. And now I have some, I have a couple of the bottles of Sangiovese left from '01 that we made, and I have a couple of mags left. Every time I open one, I say, "This is great. This is great wine." And it is great wine. You can't... it's sales proof wine. (laughs) It's so hard to sell.
Doug Shafer:
What I've noticed with the... 'Cause we still have some bottles around, when we pop them. It's like, "Wow, this tastes like-"
Robert Kamen:
They're great.
Doug Shafer:
"This tastes like an old san-... this tastes like a 10 or 15 year old Sangiovese-"
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
From Tuscany.
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
It's like the grape, kind of finds.
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
The, the varietals, finds its same place where they just... it's really interesting to me.
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
But yeah, tough to-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
If you can't sell it, you can't make it. You know what I mean? It's like... (laughs) It's just got to do it.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, so when you replanted, after the fire, you planted... you said where you got Cabernet, you got Syrah? What else do you guys make?
Robert Kamen:
I have, um, three acres of Syrah. I have, um, 40 acres of Cabernet. I have three, two acres of, um, Sauvignon Blanc.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
I have, um... I have a half acre of Cab Franc. We make this, a really good Cab Franc. No green bean flavors.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Robert Kamen:
Um, and which... and all this stuff sells through the tasting room. I mean, the cab franc never sees the light of day. The Syrah sells through the tasting room. And we have... I put a small quarter acre of Viognier in, so we can have the skins to co-ferment with the, um, with the Syrah.
Doug Shafer:
With the Syrah. Okay. There you go.
Robert Kamen:
And... yeah. And, and we bottle the Viognier juice, one barrel of it, 23 cases. Same people buy it every year.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
It comes in, it goes out. And that's it. But the, the work horse is the cab.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
And it's 100% cab. Uh, we have... oh, I don't know, seven or eight different clones out there by now. You know, different mixtures of rootstock depending on where we plant it. Very rocky soils. Very poor soils. It's all, um... um... and what, nothing. You know, I've had a vineyard for 40 years. Here I am.
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Robert Kamen:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Nice. And you still, are you still writing full time also, or you've slowed down a little on that?
Robert Kamen:
I've never been busier. It's insane.
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Robert Kamen:
It's completely crazy. Um, I did a film that i had out last year called Angel Has Fallen.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
Um, it was a third part as the Has Fallen series. I'm now doing the fourth installment of that and two other films, two other scripts I'm writing. And I'm pitching a TV series on the Mississippi Delta in two weeks to a bunch of streamers.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Robert Kamen:
Well I'm like, I'm cranking all over the place.
Doug Shafer:
You're cranking. Did I see something about judgment, judg-, a judgment of Paris movie? Was that, were you involved in that?
Robert Kamen:
Um, yeah. Well... yeah. I'm not gonna talk badly about (laughter) people who, um, who live in the Napa Valley and have vineyards that they subsequently sold. Who, uh, made their name in that tasting, but let's say, uh...
Doug Shafer:
Say no more. (laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Cer-... yeah. Certain people made it impossible to make the movie.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's too bad. That's too bad.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause that'd be good for, that'd be good for our business, you know? All of us.
Robert Kamen:
It'd have been, it would have been great.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
I, I wrote the movie... and then the sad part is that, uh, I wrote it about the wrong guy. I should have written it about Mike Grigch who was dying to, he said he would pay me to rewrite the script-
Doug Shafer:
Interesting.
Robert Kamen:
To tell his story. And, and he has a great story. I mean the way he came here.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
It's fantastic.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. His st-
Robert Kamen:
Um, but I kind of lost after I went through this insane dance... with the unnamed person. I, I lost interest. And, uh, and it just went away.
Doug Shafer:
Understood.
Robert Kamen:
You know?
Doug Shafer:
Life's too short.
Robert Kamen:
Life's too short to fight, Doug.
Doug Shafer:
No, it is. I'm with you on that one. Let's all work together, and you know, be normal. And if not, forget about it. We're moving down the road.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, but Ka-Karate Kid into a musical? Is that what I heard?
Robert Kamen:
Oh, oh, yeah. Where'd you hear that?
Doug Shafer:
Oh, I've got a research team here. I've got 15 people.
Robert Kamen:
Oh, yeah, right. (laughter) Yeah. Well we were, we were on the fast track. Uh, we were supposed to ... we were supposed to be in casting by August.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Kamen:
And, um, in previews by February at the, um, La Jolla Play House and then figure out how to get it on Broadway.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
But Broadway is now shut.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
The whole business is shut down, and so it's kind of on hold. It's gonna happen. Uh, it's just, it's probably gonna take a year to get it done. That would have been on the super fast track, but now it's, it's simmering. But it's good. We have everything. We have the... we have a great director. We have a great book. We have great songs.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Robert Kamen:
You know, everything is great, great, great, great, great, except, uh, Broadway sucks right now. It's all shut down.
Doug Shafer:
Well, yeah. We're just all, everything's on hold. I mean I'm, I'm optimistic that we'll get back.
Robert Kamen:
Me too.
Doug Shafer:
We'll get back. But it's gonna be a while, so we gotta hang in there.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know, you know, people, they're showing up a little... I don't know what it's like over there, but people are showing up a little bit at a time. People are starting to travel. I'm a little nervous about contracting the virus, honestly.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Kamen:
I-I was in New York working on the musical in January, the end of January I left. A week later, the five people I was with, our choreographers, our lyricist, our production designer... everybody came down with it.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.
Robert Kamen:
Really sick. Nobody died. Nobody died.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
And I dodged a bullet. And I got scared, honestly. So I just said, "Well, I have the perfect place to not go anywhere, so I'm here."
Doug Shafer:
You're there.
Robert Kamen:
I have, I haven't left. Yeah, but we're going to a restaurant for the first time in four months, um, on Thursday with Frank Gossler from Outpost and Mending Wall.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
And we're gonna eat outside. And I'm still nervous.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
I'm still anxious, a little anxious.
Doug Shafer:
We, we've dipped our toe in a little bit, but we're, uh, it's, uh-
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Being real careful. Tell me about-
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Sorry, did you ever actually make the wine, or did you always have a wine maker? Or who's making the wines now?
Robert Kamen:
Who, me? No, no. Uh, I'm, I like to say I'm a head cheerleader and check writer.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Mark Herold has made my wines since 2002.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
And, uh, and he subsequently, he also married my director of marketing and sales, who's now my general manager, Gianna Farrina.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
Uh, who turned this whole thing around to make it a profitable operation. He married her, or she married him, I should say. Because her ni-, our nickname for her is the generalisssimo.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. (laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Um, she's very organized. Um, Mark makes the wine, Phil grows the grapes. You know, I just sit here and just watch everything go around. If I have an opinion, people listen, talk me out of things. You know- I'm a great believer in if you find real talent, you go with the real talent.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
So...
Doug Shafer:
Take care of them. And, uh-
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You've probably been asked this a million times. You know, screenwriting, wine making. Similarities, differences... are there parallels? Is it just kind of like-
Robert Kamen:
Su-super similar, because-
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Robert Kamen:
Not so much screenwriting, but wine making and movie making are collaborative experiences. And you start with a blueprint, you start with... In movie making, you start with the screenplay.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
In wine, in winemaking or wine growing, you start with your basic, well, dirt. You start with your land.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Kamen:
You build up the land, you get your raw materials. With the screenplay, you finish your screenplay, you find actors, directors, production designers. With making wine, you find a winemaker, you find somebody to sell it, you find somebody to, uh, do your agriculture correctly. And so it's a collaborative experience. It's not dissimilar. Um-
Doug Shafer:
Hm.
Robert Kamen:
Except the one variable is the weather. In, in movie making, it's crazy egos. In, uh, wine growing, it's the weather. You can't control egos and you can't control the weather. So...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
So they're really... (laughs) they're really quite, they're quite, uh, quite similar. And I love... We only make wine off our estate.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
I don't have, I don't own vineyards in other places. I don't have a huge wine business. It's, um, basically we make 3500 cases a year.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
4000 in a really good year.
Doug Shafer:
Great size.
Robert Kamen:
And, um... yeah, it's perfect and perfect for what we do. And I've found that perfect niche market. We opened a tasting room in town on the square. We have people who come up and visit the vineyard and hang around on a, a sky deck that we built. And, and I have no desire to expand.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
To me, Doug, it's almost a religious thing about this one piece of property. You have the same thing with your vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
We do.
Robert Kamen:
Your dad came-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
You know, what did he know about farming?
Doug Shafer:
No, nothing.
Robert Kamen:
Nothing.
Doug Shafer:
Nothing. (laughter) Nothing.
Robert Kamen:
But he felt this, he felt this affinity for this piece of property that happened to be a great place to grow cabernet.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And who, and who knew? Nobody knew. He didn't know.
Robert Kamen:
Nobody knew.
Doug Shafer:
No one knew.
Robert Kamen:
You know.
Doug Shafer:
It had hillside potential-
Robert Kamen:
You know, you know, now you know.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, but you know, Robert-
Robert Kamen:
But he didn't know.
Doug Shafer:
It took me, it took me, it took me probably 10, 12 years of making the cabernet off this ranch to finally realize-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
How special my place is.
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
I mean, it, and it would happen-
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
In the middle of the night during one harvest when, when a red fermentor just went from just being kind of wine, or just kind of being juice/wine to like, oh my god, this is so good.
Robert Kamen:
Magic. Magic.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, it's magical.
Robert Kamen:
Right?
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I've tried to describe it to-
Robert Kamen:
We've all, you know-
Doug Shafer:
People, and you can't do it. It's just something happens.
Robert Kamen:
No. Because wine is mystery.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Kamen:
Wine is magic and mystery no matter what we do. These people, you can fuck around with it, you can... am I not supposed to say that on the podcast?
Doug Shafer:
Oh, you can do anything you want. (laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Um... oh, good.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
You can fuck around with it, you can... I always say, you know, wine is grown, it's not made. You can do whatever you want. You can make, you can make bad wine out of good grapes. You can't make good wine out of bad grapes. You can not do it.
Doug Shafer:
Nope.
Robert Kamen:
You can't do it. And that's all there is to it, and I, I am... I stumbled upon a piece of property like your father did.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
I stumbled on a piece of property that happens to facilitate the growing of great cabernet, or great grapes, if you pay attention to the farming. If you pay attention to it, it produces something that becomes magical. And like you said, this fermentor... like, what did you do? I don't know, can I do that again? It just happened. It's a mystery.
Doug Shafer:
It just happens. And that's-
Robert Kamen:
It's a crazy mystery.
Doug Shafer:
Well, it's, it's, it's the magic. And, um...
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know... all... it's that one slice of magic that kind of makes all the other stuff worth it. All that other day to day, day to day, whatever it is. You know, all the stuff we all do.
Robert Kamen:
When you... yeah. When you, when you, you open that bottle, or when you pull the lid off the fermentor. Or when you're, when you're, you know... doing racking, and all of a sudden this aroma comes out where, how did that happen? It, it's... for some people, yeah. Listen, theBbible doesn't talk about bourbon or beer. It talks about water and wine. (laughter) And there's a reason. (laughs) You know?
Doug Shafer:
I have to say amen to that. Um, no it's true. And you know, it, it's funny, 'cause, uh, I've got a kid home, you know, bless his heart, from you know, middle of college, and he's stuck at home. But, uh... no, but we try and do anything we can just to, you know, mix it up a little bit. So you know, "Dad, Dad, what we drinking tonight?" I said, "You know, go pick out a bottle. You know, just go for it."
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And he goes, "What's this? I don't even know." I say, I look at it. I said, "I don't know what that is either. You know, someone probably gave it to me." I have no idea. It's from Italy, or France, or...
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
You know, Napa, Sonoma, who knows. So I don't even know the label. It's cab, it's syrah, whatever. You know, we pull the cork, and we pour a glass, and we're getting dinner ready. All of a sudden one of us will... this has happened a couple of times. Or we both kind of stop at the same time, and he looks at me, I look at him. I go... 'Cause we just smelled it, and I go, "Wow." He goes, "Wow." Then we taste and go...
Robert Kamen:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And there's just like this, this, just two or three seconds of him and I looking at each other going, "Hey, this is really cool. Like, what is this?" And it's, it's... and it's just a moment, and then we're on, often talking about this or that, or watching TV or whatever. But, those are those moments ... I like it.
Robert Kamen:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Um, how can people find-
Robert Kamen:
I hope so.
Doug Shafer:
Find your wines, how can they order them? How can they visit your place? Give me some, give me some info for everyone to know.
Robert Kamen:
Um... you can go online.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Robert Kamen:
KamenWines.com. Uh, you can come to our tasting room-
Doug Shafer:
Which is in-
Robert Kamen:
In Sonoma.
Doug Shafer:
Sonoma, it's open right now.
Robert Kamen:
Right on the... yeah, right on the town of, town square. You have to make appointments. It used to be just, walk on in.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Robert Kamen:
Right?
Doug Shafer:
Right. Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
It used to be walk on in, but, um, because of this, it's you have to make an appointment, and we have a whole protocol. And you know, masks and-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Robert Kamen:
You know this. You know, it's a whole thing. We're just trying to be super careful, and we're small. You know, we don't have... it's not a fancy thing. It's kind of like, all about the wine and, uh, I got a bunch of quotes from my movies hanging up on the wall. And if you guess all five, you get a free tasting.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Robert Kamen:
But nobody will ever guess the fifth one, 'cause I ain't stupid. (laughter) I put one in nobody would ever guess. Um...
Doug Shafer:
Well, I'll talk to my son. He'll help me out on that one.
Robert Kamen:
But, uh... Yeah, exactly. (laughter) And that's how you find the wine. It's... we're not in a ton of places. I, I've tried to pull back, because I don't make that much wine. So I can sell as much as I can produce. We try to pull back from having to show it all over the place, and that's worked pretty good for us.
Doug Shafer:
Well, the wines are delicious, and I, I encourage people to go online-
Robert Kamen:
Thank you, Doug.
Doug Shafer:
Go online and, and get some of them. And I'm gonna come, uh, taste in person with, with Steven when I get him up here next time. So I'll let you know-
Robert Kamen:
Well when you do, please come over. We'll, you know, we'll give you the cooks tour. It'll be... take you to see some of the more interesting sights of the vineyard, and we'll sit and we'll drink wines... or if you don't want to drink my wine, we can go to my cellar, and I have a whole bunch of really cool old Barolos, Riojas, Barbarescos... All sorts of stuff that's interesting.
Doug Shafer:
No, I want to drink your wine. (laughs)
Robert Kamen:
Okay, good. Fine.
Doug Shafer:
All right, man. So, Robert, thanks so much for taking the time. Really appreciate it. We're all busy, and, uh-
Robert Kamen:
Doug, this was great.
Doug Shafer:
Great talking to you.
Robert Kamen:
I appreciated very much you thinking of me. I really, uh, I really do appreciate it. And if I don't catch you buying my wine, I'll catch you buying a movie ticket.
Doug Shafer:
All right, my friend.
Robert Kamen:
One way or another, one way or another you're supporting the bottom line.
Doug Shafer:
There you go. Best of luck to you.
Robert Kamen:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
And we'll, we'll talk to you soon. Take care.
Robert Kamen:
Thanks so much.
Doug Shafer:
See you.
Robert Kamen:
Bye.
Doug Shafer:
Bye bye.
Robert Kamen:
Bye.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Hey everybody, Doug Shafer. A, another episode of The Taste. Today is May 7th. We are still in shelter-in-place in California during these cr- crazy times. So, we're back on the phone with today's guest. I've got a story to tell ya, uh, some of you who've listened before have heard this, so bear with me.
Doug Shafer:
So, back with my UC Davis days, there was a class called Viticulture 116A and 116B, a two quarter class, uh, led by the famous, infamous Dr. Cook, uh, who was a character, but it was a mix of grad students, undergrads, 40 or 50 students, front row, Cathy Corison, Tony Soter, Dick Ward, some other top winemakers.
Doug Shafer:
I'm in the back with Bryan Del Bondio who is wi- wi- winemaker and president of Markham forever, Rich Chessie, couple other folks, and then there was this crazy Texas guy. Um, and he had the best one-liners I've ever heard, and I just loved that class, I learned a ton, and I've never laughed so hard in my life.
Doug Shafer:
And, that crazy Texan was a guy named Kim McPherson, who is probably one of the key- key winemaker people in Texas for over the last 40 years and he's with us today from... Kim, welcome, where are ya? Where the hell are ya?
Kim McPherson:
Well, I'm in downtown Lubbock. I'm in an urban winery. It used to be the old Coca-Cola bottling plant, and I'm upstairs in my event guy's office 'cause it's real quiet, 'cause we're bottling today.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) We're bottling too. What are you... What-
Kim McPherson:
You're gonna say, "What are you bottling?" And, if you s-... And, if I tell ya, I don't want you to laugh.
Doug Shafer:
I'm not gonna laugh. What are you bottling?
Kim McPherson:
I'm bottling 2,100 cases of Sangria for my, I have a young wife, Doug.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
She's Spanish.
Doug Shafer:
Well, good.
Kim McPherson:
And she, and she has her own little, she has her own winery, but it's not really a winery. We make her wines for her, but it's actually, right across the street from me and she's had it for 16 years.
Doug Shafer:
Cool.
Kim McPherson:
And it's called La Diosa Cellars, and her Sangria is statewide, and she was running out, she panicked, sh- she comes to me and so, I say, "Okay."
Doug Shafer:
Well, you're a-
Kim McPherson:
"Do you love me or not?"
Doug Shafer:
Well, you're a good, well, you're a good husband. I like it, and tell me, uh, her name is... What's her name?
Kim McPherson:
Her name is Sylvia.
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Kim McPherson:
I met her in Los Angeles, California in 1974.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Kim McPherson:
'74. Been married to her, this May, 41 years.
Doug Shafer:
Congratulations, my friend. You keep bottling that Sangria.
Kim McPherson:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs). What?
Kim McPherson:
And, you can say I married a Spanish woman 'cause my dad, one time, sent me to school down in old Mexico, down there in old Mexico.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And, I studied archeology, and I came back, and my mother goes, "He's gonna marry a Mexican girl, I just know he is."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And, I said, "Uh, yeah, probably am."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughs) Well-
Kim McPherson:
So, I did.
Doug Shafer:
Well, good for you. It's 40- 40 years, you said? 41 years?
Kim McPherson:
41 this May, May 26th.
Doug Shafer:
Man, that's great. That's so cool. So, we're bottling 2018 One Point Cabernet. We're doing... It's at the-
Kim McPherson:
One Point Five.
Doug Shafer:
One Point Five.
Kim McPherson:
Is that-
Doug Shafer:
That's- that's our, that's our mainline Cab, baby. And-
Kim McPherson:
And- and what's that, what is that label called? What's it called?
Doug Shafer:
It's actually-
Kim McPherson:
Shafer, I know.
Doug Shafer:
It's- it's a Shafer bra-, it's a Shafer brand and then we actually, call the wine One Point Five, and, uh, it's a Cabernet, always a Stags Leap District District Cab, mostly Cab, sometimes some Merlot, and Malbec, and Petit Verdot, and, uh, the name tells the story, the generation story of my dad and me. He- he started late in life, second career, and I joined him early, I joined him within the first three years, so instead of two generations it's one and a half, or we call it One Point Five.
Kim McPherson:
One Point Five.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Kim McPherson:
Do the math. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
And- and, we, I vowed I would never put it in Magnums 'cause there was enough confusion with the name anyway, and, um, a couple years ago we started making Mags, (laughs) so now you get a 1.5 of One Point Five.
Kim McPherson:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Somebody- somebody wishes I should call it Three Point O, but I said that would, BATF or whatever it wasn't wild about that, so we couldn't do that.
Doug Shafer:
So, uh, anyway, there, I'm really jazzed to talk to you, Kim. First, it's great to hear your voice 'cause you and I go way back. But, um, a lot of people who listen to this podcast don't know much about the wine industry in Texas, so it's go- really good to have you on.
Doug Shafer:
And, at some point later, I wanna have you do a little overview, but before we get to that, your family is a big part of the Texas wine story from the beginning, and it starts with your dad. So tell me, tell me about your dad and Texas wine.
Kim McPherson:
Well, my dad was a chemistry professor at Texas Tech, it's right here in Lubbock. You know, that's the big 12, you know, last year we were in the Final Two.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Anyway, but, uh, he taught chemistry and, my mother taught nu-, food nutrition, nutrition,-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Senior graduate level nutrition. And, he made hooch when he was in college...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
(laughs) And- and...
Doug Shafer:
Wait, okay. Well, time out, big boy. What kinda hooch was he making in college?
Kim McPherson:
Well, he was making it out of peaches, anything they could make it out of.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Kim McPherson:
And, uh, his nickname-
Doug Shafer:
Moonshine.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, moonsh-, well or wine. He made peach wine-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And he'd add stuff and- and, uh, they called him Doc. That's all we ever called him. We never called him Dad, we always called him Doc, you know, "Hey, Doc," right. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
So, uh, in 1967 he said, "I'm gonna plant a vineyard," and, of course, my mother goes, "Hell, you're nuts." So, he planted a vineyard, and now the vineyard is in town now, it was outside of town.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Kim McPherson:
And, it's called Sagmor, still have it, it's, uh, 14 acres, uh, seven and a half of it's planted to Sangiovese- and he's had that since 1983, and he's got, he has got two, three acres of Cabernet, Clone 7, and you're not gonna believe this, but Bill Ward planted that.
Doug Shafer:
Bill Ward, our old buddy from UC Davis.
Kim McPherson:
Our old buddy, Bill Ward, UC Davis.
Doug Shafer:
Who- who spent a lot of time, well, he spent most of his career here in Napa I think, or at least Napa/Sonoma planting vineyards.
Kim McPherson:
Well, he was in Lubbock, Texas for about four years putting a vineyard in for some rich guys, 100 acres, he put 100 acres in.
Doug Shafer:
That's a name that most people really don't know. Bill's lo-, we lost Bill a- a number of years ago, but this guy, this guy knew how to plant vineyards, and he was way, wa-, I mean, at the time-
Kim McPherson:
Way ahead of, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Way ahead of everybody back in the '70s and '80s when he was doing it.
Kim McPherson:
You know, and I, and I, he taught me so much about don't take crap off people and this and that and, you know, his s- s- little sayings, you know, know, he-
Doug Shafer:
He was a, we got, we know we got a formal education in grapes and wine, and we got a life education from Dr. Bill Ward.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, and, you know, he was in the, you know in was in the N-, uh, the Navy, and he was corpsman on a ship off the coast of Vietnam.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And, he would tell me stories about, you know, stuff, oh, horrible stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And- and, yeah, it, he, but he- he was a... And, you know, he- he ran away basic-, he moved out of his house when he was 16 years old-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kim McPherson:
Because he couldn't stand his sisters-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And his dad was, his dad was okay, but his mother and his sisters drove him nuts, and he moved in on a beach with a cop from L.A.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And, he lived... I mean, it was an incredible story. So, he had this gr- gr- great life, and I don't know if you know this, and I'm not trying to harp on Bill Ward, but you know he played baseball-
Doug Shafer:
I-
Kim McPherson:
In- in high school-
Doug Shafer:
I do remember that.
Kim McPherson:
In Costa Mesa.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And, in the State Championship he's the only guy that got a hit off Bert Blyleven.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. Didn't know that.
Kim McPherson:
And, he, uh, he had elbow surgery, but he had scholarship to UCLA, Arizona, and one other college, and when he heads, he said he got those zippers in his elbow, the scholarships disappeared, and then he said, "I went, I went to school." So, that's it. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) You know... Hey-
Kim McPherson:
So, he's a great ball player, golly.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, well, do you, do you, uh, didn't, wasn't there a viticulture enology softball team, and you guys were on it?
Kim McPherson:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I didn't, I-
Kim McPherson:
I- I put all that together and I recruited people. You were recruited.
Doug Shafer:
No, I, you know something, I, 'cause you were a grad student, right, at the Davis? No, no?
Kim McPherson:
No, no, no, no.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, you were undergrad?
Kim McPherson:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
I thought maybe that I was just being you, discriminated against 'cause I was a punk. Oh.
Kim McPherson:
(laughs) No.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
You got...
Doug Shafer:
One up.
Kim McPherson:
No, I- I went to everybody. Hell, I even went to old John Alban, you know he was a brewery guy.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Do you ever remember him?
Doug Shafer:
I do.
Kim McPherson:
I mean, this guy was super good looking. All the women would go, "God, who's that?" And, they'd go, "He's our buddy." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) He makes beer. Uh-
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, but now he makes wine.
Doug Shafer:
I know. Well, you- you know, he- he saw the light, saw the light. So- back to, back to your dad. So, was he, your dad the first guy to plant grapes in- in that area, West Texas?
Kim McPherson:
Well, yeah, up here in we-, up in the high Texas it's called it's, the AVA's called the Texas High Plains.
Doug Shafer:
Texas High Plains.
Kim McPherson:
There's about a million acres up here-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
In the Texas High Plains.
Doug Shafer:
And, just for lo-, ge- ge- geographic logistics, Lubbock's, like how far, it's west of Dallas how far?
Kim McPherson:
Uh, we are 80 miles from the New Mexico State Line. We are 110 miles south of Amarillo, straight south,-
Doug Shafer:
Right, got it.
Kim McPherson:
And then we're about 100 miles north of Midland.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
So, we're in what they call the South Plains, not the Panhandle, the South Plains.
Doug Shafer:
But, just below-
Kim McPherson:
We're...
Doug Shafer:
The south of the Panhandle, right.
Kim McPherson:
The, you know, the- the, evla- elevation here is about 3500 feet and yes, it's flat-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And I'm gonna say because of climate change, it has gotten a little warmer.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And so, yes, he was the first guy to plant up here, but he wasn't the first guy to plant in Texas.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Texas has a long history, um, there was a gentleman in, uh, East Texas that saved the French vineyards from phylloxera. And, actually, the, he, they erected, they gave him the Legion of Honor and they erected a 75 foot monument to him at his grave in- in Denison, Texas. And, God, I can't remember that guy's name, it slips my mind.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
But, you know, do you, you know, I don't know if you know, re- going just to real quick to Texas is that Jim Lider, you remember Jim Lider, professor.
Doug Shafer:
Jim Li-, Dr. Lider, UC Davis.
Kim McPherson:
Dr. Lider-
Doug Shafer:
Yep.
Kim McPherson:
And his grad students, he told me, he said, "Kim, we go to Texas all the time," and I said, "Why?" And, he said, "You got more indigenous wild grapevines than any state."
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Kim McPherson:
And, he would go all over this state into creek beds and everywhere, and he would get, they'd get recut, I mean, cuttings.
Doug Shafer:
And, bring 'em back 'cause-
Kim McPherson:
And so,-
Doug Shafer:
'Cause -
Kim McPherson:
They'd bring 'em back and then they were, you know, and so this is what, uh, the guy did in Denison, and he shipped all these cuttings over there to France to save the, and you know, we gave them phylloxera, right, so. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
That's right, we were, yeah, that's something we, we don't talk about too much. (laughs)
Kim McPherson:
(laughs) So, they- they, he shipped boatloads over there, and they grafted onto this and, you know, the big thing is now the French say well there's- there's pre-phylloxera vineyards, you know, in
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Burgundy, and, that didn't have the rootstock, and then they came up with their own rootstock. But, in the long run, he- he saved the, that he saved the French wine industry.
Doug Shafer:
Exactly.
Kim McPherson:
Back in the 1870s or whatever.
Doug Shafer:
So, a little background for everybody. Dr. Lider was one of our professors back in the '70s in Davis.
Kim McPherson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And, great guy, really friendly guy.
Kim McPherson:
Oh, good, yeah, great guy.
Doug Shafer:
Really good guy. And, um, but, a, one of his areas, he a lot of th- th- things going on, Davis's research on developing new rootstocks, and cultivars, and, you know, basically, genetic engineering if you will, to come up with a rootstock that does better in clay soil, or wet soil, or disease resistance. And, that's-
Kim McPherson:
Salt soil.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, so, uh, what Kim's talking about is there were so many native gr- grape va-, um, species in Texas, so much more than an- anywhere around here, that's where Lider and these guys were going down to get some of these species to bring 'em back to the lab to do some genetic work on it, so. But, I never knew that, I never knew they went to Texas. That's cool.
Kim McPherson:
Oh, and- and he made, I don't know, he told me one time he made three or four trips down here, and you know, and they'd go all over in these creeks and-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And he'd send graduate students down here, and they'd come back.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And, it was, it was wild. I went, "Huh," who, "I never knew that." But...
Doug Shafer:
That's cool.
Kim McPherson:
And so, you know, the- the rupestris stuff, and all this, I- I can't even remember the names, but-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
It's very interesting. But, my dad had, he had 10 acres, he bought some more from his buddy-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
A little later, but he had 140 different grapevines he planted.
Doug Shafer:
140 different- different grape varietals?
Kim McPherson:
D- deep, d- d- dif- different grape varietals from hybrids to Native American to, all kinds of, oh, vinifera-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Uh, he had-
Doug Shafer:
And- and, what was, what was he doing just seeing what was going to be best, or...
Kim McPherson:
Just to see-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
What would grow here.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And, he, uh, uh, planted all these. You know, he may have 10 vines of something and 30 vines of this, and you know, 50 vines of this.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And, one of the stories, he had a grad student that went to Spain, and this is a true story, and this guy came back, and he- he had grape vines he had wrapped around a VW wheel.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And, he was in, he was in the, uh, Rioja in Spain.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And, he brought these two vines back, and Doc goes, "What are these?" And, he goes, "I don't know, one of 'em's red and one of 'em's white." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And so, my dad made cuttings out of all this thing, wrapped around the grapevi-, uh, in the wheel of, 'cause he smuggled them in. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
He smuggled 'em in- in the, in the spare, in the spare tire. Got it.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
In- in two tires. And- and so, my dad planted it, and it was Tempranillo, and the other white grape of Rioja, I don't know which one it was, they grew like weeds.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
But, you know, then he goes, "H- how do I know this is Tempranillo?" And, I said, "Well, Doc." You know, and he had the leaves and he looked at it. But, we never sent it off, but goll-... He called 'em Spanish A and Spanish B.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) All right. So, I love this. So, this guy, your dad, Doc, he's doing all this-
Kim McPherson:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
All this, planting everything just seeing what grows best. And, meanwhile, so harvest comes along... Now, does he have a winery yet?
Kim McPherson:
Well-
Doug Shafer:
When's that, when's that happen?
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, it was our garage at the house.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, your gara-, it's a home winemaker. So, he would just make small batches of this and that, is what I'm guessing, right?
Kim McPherson:
Yeah. And- and he made 'em in reagent, big, you know, they had these big glass bottles, there's, I still got like 10 of 'em, they're really cool looking.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, the big five for five...
Kim McPherson:
Re-aged -
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah.
Kim McPherson:
The acid thing, and they're like six gallons, and seven gallons.
Doug Shafer:
That- that's right 'cause he was a chemistry guy.
Kim McPherson:
And, he-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, he had all that.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, and he had, he had all these bottles, and he had-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Stuff down in our cellar. He had a cellar, we have a r-, we have a tornado cellar-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And he had stuff fermenting down there, and he had stuff fermenting over here. And, my big brother whose, he's not in the wine business, he- he teaches school, Doug. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Oh, well, yeah, I've done that. I mean...
Kim McPherson:
(laughs) He still does.
Doug Shafer:
All right.
Kim McPherson:
He would, he would siphon off stuff and sell it to his buddies.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Did your dad know about that?
Kim McPherson:
Nah, he figured it out, some point, and he, you know, yeah, it- it got, it was funny.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Kim McPherson:
Doc kinda laughed, but it... Then, the Chemistry Department at Tech gave him a downstairs, in the basement, big ol' lab. And, he moved everything down there, and he was doing all his experimental stuff down there. Him and his buddy, Bob Reed who was a professor at Tech too.
Doug Shafer:
And, they're making hooch on campus. Is that legal? How'd they get away with that?
Kim McPherson:
Oh, yeah, they- they got, they got it passed-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Back in the day, and they were making hooch on campus, and studying stuff, and, you know, seeing the best wine, and what this, and what didn't grow, and- and, uh...
Doug Shafer:
And when, who's, and who's working the vineyard? Are they like doing it on the weekends and nights?
Kim McPherson:
They, yeah, they were doing it on the weekends themselves.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And, how about you? Were you a kid help 'em, did he drag you out to the vineyard?
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, I was, oh, oh, oh, yeah. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, all of us got drug out to the vineyard. We drove the tractor and, you know, and we plowed. You know, back when- when he first started, it was fun, it was fun.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Then it got to be like, no, that's not no fun anymore. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, it's like, you know, I wanna go see my friends and hang out, go to the movies.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, I wanted to do that.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
But, you know, back then, you know, Doug, we didn't have cell phones and we didn't have this-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
You know, we didn't have any of that stuff. So, yeah, we went out there and messed around and played in the irrigation well, and did, you, did all that stuff, and... But, he- he figured out that vinifera would work here.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And, one of his favorite grapes was Carignan.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. 'Cause I was gonna ask you later-
Kim McPherson:
And then-
Doug Shafer:
What- what goes best down in your region.
Kim McPherson:
Well-
Doug Shafer:
Lots of things.
Kim McPherson:
Well, that's another story, which includes Tony Soter.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, and we'll get, we'll get to that. We'll-
Kim McPherson:
We're gonna get to that.
Doug Shafer:
We'll- we'll okay, we'll get back to that one. But, so, he's- he's in, he's- he's loving Carignan, so he starts planting more of it? What's he do?
Kim McPherson:
He plants, he plants more Carignan, he- he liked Grenache, he had Mourvedre, uh. Now, you gotta remember, my dad loved jelly, and so he had jelly grapes too.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And- and, that was just for jelly. So, he had Concord and he had some Niagara, and he loved raisins. So, he had raisin grapes too, Black Monukka,-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And Thompson. And- and, uh, so, he- he did his own raisins, and my mom made jelly. So, those were kinda sacred part of the vineyard, you know what I'm saying?
Doug Shafer:
You got, you got jelly, you got raisins, and you got wine, I mean,
Kim McPherson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You guys are set. (laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And so, and he was doing this, and then in 1970, uh, 5, he started, somebody, I can't remember who it was, said, "Doc, you oughta build a winery."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
He said, "You're crazy."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
"No, we not gonna -" Well, he- he got some lawyers together and a very rich woman out of San Antonio that was in the oil business, and she gave him the seed money of $50,000,-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Kim McPherson:
And he raised enough money to build Llano Estacado Winery.
Doug Shafer:
And, that was-
Kim McPherson:
A little ol'-
Doug Shafer:
Was that the first-
Kim McPherson:
Cinder block-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, was that the first one in Texas?
Kim McPherson:
It- it was the second winery. That there was a small, but it wasn't really a winery, it was in a guy's garage and he got bonded first, but he didn't last long. But, Doc built this thing out of concrete block, and he put all the tanks inside, and they go, "God, why'd you build it out of concrete, Doc?" And, he said, "Hell, somebody's gonna shoot it just, so I guarantee you out here in this Bible Belt."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And they damn sure did, they shot at the winery.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Oh, God. They're not still doing that, are they?
Kim McPherson:
No.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Kim McPherson:
No. But- but, you know, and then it, LLano's grown into a- a- hu-, you know, it's a huge winery now.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
But, he- he built that and he had some lawyers and he had some people in it, and-
Doug Shafer:
Was he-
Kim McPherson:
In 1976, it was, you know, a bonded winery.
Doug Shafer:
It's so cool. So, was he, uh, was that full-time, was he still teaching, and...
Kim McPherson:
No, he was still teaching. He had to teach.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. And, you're, a- a, whe- where- where are you, are you like in high school now or you're past high school?
Kim McPherson:
Uh, '76, but no, I was, a, well, I was, uh, getting ready to- to, uh, go to Davis.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. And, what was, just for fun, though, what was high school like for you and your brothers? What were you guys into? Were- were you just working in the vineyards, you got sports, what were you doing?
Kim McPherson:
(laughs) No sports. We, my brother was older than me, of course, and he was of age that, you know, back then it was 18 for the drinking age.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And so, we, uh, we, uh, uh, uh, he would get us liquor.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
So, we stood out in the parking lot and, you know, we'd drink sweet wine and, you know, and back then, you know, have an older brother, you know, he got it, got us into weed a little bit, you know. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that happens. (laughs)
Kim McPherson:
You know, and so, you know, we- we just, we-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I had, I had, I had an older brother too. (laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Just went to school, and (laughs) we got out-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And, uh...
Doug Shafer:
And, you partied a little bit.
Kim McPherson:
We kinda partied a little bit.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I got that.
Kim McPherson:
So.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. So, at this point,-
Kim McPherson:
You know, then I-
Doug Shafer:
Go ahead.
Kim McPherson:
I have an older brother, but I have a younger brother too. You might know John. He's at, he's in Te-, the lost region of Temecula. You know, the songs go, "What- what, where's that?' Anything below Santa Barbara, they go, "What's there?"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
(laughs) So, but he's down there, and he's- he's nine years younger than me.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
So, anyway, he's a winemaker, and he's a very good one.
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Kim McPherson:
But, uh, my dad started the winery and we started making wine and, uh, we couldn't have a tasting room, it was illegal.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Kim McPherson:
But, for some reason, Doc had a little ol' tasting room, and the TABC sort of turned a blind eye to it.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Kim McPherson:
But, he had to get the blessing of all the liquor stores in Texas, the major ones, and get their blessing, so that we could sell wine.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Kim McPherson:
And, he would, it was, it was a very kind of a tough deal.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, I bet it was 'cause it's-
Kim McPherson:
I mean, there was a gentleman by the name of Pinkie Roden who had Pinkie's Liquor Stores all over here in West Texas. I mean, he was a famous bootlegger, and hell, my dad had to go down to Odessa all the time. And, they- they- they liked Doc. They'd go, "Hey, Doc, how..."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And- and, they'd let him, they passed a tasting room law, but Doc couldn't sell, you couldn't sell over 25,000 gallons out of your tasting room. But, they let him have the tasting room law.
Doug Shafer:
So, he sold it, hold, sold out of the tasting room. Was he selling, uh, you know, this is back in the, uh, uh, back in the days, and was he selling it to restaurants, and other retail outlets, or distributors, and...
Kim McPherson:
He was selling it to Pinkie's, and to Majestic's who was in Fort Worth,-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And Sigel's, which was in Dallas.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Kim McPherson:
And-
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, what- what types of wine? It was, obviously, Carignan, I bet, and what el-, what else was he making?
Kim McPherson:
Well we, well, uh, we had, we didn't have any varietals, so to speak-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Kim McPherson:
We did blends-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
'Cause we didn't have enough. So, we had, you know, we had a red wine. Then we have white... There's white wine, and, uh, we put in a liter and a half's too (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right. (Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
1.5s baby.
Kim McPherson:
1.5s, and, you know, we didn't- we didn't do a lot, I mean we- we were doing... he was probably doing 2,500 cases per year.
Doug Shafer:
Right, right. Oh yeah, it's kinda cool-
Kim McPherson:
But-
Doug Shafer:
But, fun, how... I mean, that must've been crazy? Did- did... what'd the locals all think? Did they think he was nuts?
Kim McPherson:
Well he was nuts-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
... but- but, they loved to drink the wine, and they'd come out there, and, you know, the funny... this is a very funny story too. His first winemaker was an Australian that he met, remember, they didn't have Unified in those days, it was ASEV.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Remember that?
Doug Shafer:
Right, this is the, this is the annual-
Kim McPherson:
In San Diego.
Doug Shafer:
... this is the annual wine people convention.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... the ASEV.
Kim McPherson:
Back then, and- and so, he met an Australian there, at San Diego. And this guy was named, I can't even remember his name, Terry something, Beltrami, or Terry something.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And he hired this guy to make wine, good winemaker. And... but unbeknownst to my dad, this guy w- wanted to go back to Australia. But he didn't have any money.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
It's, (laughing), and so, he got in trouble, he kind of fooled around with a farmer's wife-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, come on, really?
Kim McPherson:
And-
Doug Shafer:
That's just, like, right out of-
Kim McPherson:
No, no.
Doug Shafer:
... that's right outta Hollywood.
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs). And-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughing), but these things happen, that's how movies happen.
Kim McPherson:
And anyway, he got in trouble, and they arrested him, and this and that. And that- that's exactly, kind of, what he wanted, 'cause the government stepped in, and they, you know, they gave him a free flight home.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Oh man, you know, McPherson, you-
Kim McPherson:
And so the first one-
Doug Shafer:
... just can't make this stuff up.
Kim McPherson:
I'm- I'm not making it up, it's a true story.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
And- and he went-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
... back home, and he was here for about two years. And we hired a guy, you may know him, uh, Joe, God- God dang it. Joe Norman.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And I think Joe Norman, went to Davis, smart kid, and he was in Missouri, but he's from California.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
He was in Missouri making wine, and when this... my dad got him. He m-, he said, "Heck, yeah, I'm moving West, I'm just going to move it there." And he was making wine here, and he was a good winemaker too. And he was making, you know, varietals and stuff, and- and, uh, uh. Anyway, he got home sick, and he was here about three years, I think.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kim McPherson:
And then he- he moved back to California. I think he's as ASD, if I'm not mistaken. I see Joe every now and then. And, uh, he loved it here, but he moved back. And then that's when I was-
Doug Shafer:
Well that's-
Kim McPherson:
... at Davis
Doug Shafer:
Yes, so before you... how'd you get to Davis, did you know you wanted to be a wine guy? Or was this just something to do? Or is this like, next time I'm going to come back I'm going to do this, I'm really into this. Or just... what- what's the story there?
Kim McPherson:
Well I wasn't into it. I can tell you, not in the beginning. My, uh, my de- my first degree is in food science. And my mother said, "You'll never want for a job in food science," and she was right. Because, you know, we make all the shit that you people eat.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs). This is-
Kim McPherson:
Doritos-
Doug Shafer:
... your mother.
Kim McPherson:
Sneaker bars-
Doug Shafer:
... this is your mother, I love it.
Kim McPherson:
... Twinkies.
Doug Shafer:
I love it.
Kim McPherson:
You know, and, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Because she had the, yeah, she was a prof in food science, that's right, okay.
Kim McPherson:
And, I got a job in Los Angeles, and I was going to Tech as an intern, and I worked at Carnation dairy in downtown Los Angeles.
Doug Shafer:
That's where that came from, you mentioned that the other day. Okay. It was an internship.
Kim McPherson:
And I, and I worked there, and every summer, and I made – I was a union man, I made good money.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
I bought a BMW motorcycle that I still have, I got, you know, I met my wife there, I met all these people. It was a party, it's a party. And, you know, when I graduated from Tech, uh, I got a job in a R & D food plant outside of Dallas, north of Dallas. And, you know, we- we did all kinds of shit there. We were- it was Seven Seas salad dressing, and Chiffon margarine.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Kim McPherson:
And I, and this is another true story; you know, the big thing that we were trying to do there, was, you remember ranch dressing? You know, ranch dressing?
Doug Shafer:
Sure, everybody knows ranch-
Kim McPherson:
Remember you had to make it up fresh, with mayonnaise, and the buttermilk-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
... and the powder.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Well, they were trying to get that flavor in the bottle. And they... you know, they've succeeded now-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
... but, we were doing that. But I worked in the cheese division, because I was on the national dair- dairy judging team at Tech. So they put me into the cheese division. And hell, I went all over, I went to Wisconsin, Minnesota, went up there and- and worked in these plants, and did all this spec work, and, you know. And it was fun for a while-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
... till it got old. And I was with this company 11 months. And I told my mom, I said, "I'm quitting." And she goes, "You can't quit, you gotta work there for one year."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
(Laughing), and I said, "Okay." Well, they l- they laid a bunch of, they laid 125 of us off. And I said, "Thank you Lord."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs). Did you?
Kim McPherson:
Then that was the summer that, uh, the first Star Wars came out.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. All right.
Kim McPherson:
And I was living, I was living north of Dallas, my brother lived up on a lake, and, you know, I just spent all m-, all summer doing that, and watching Star Trek in the movie theater, and going sailing on a sailboat and shit.
Doug Shafer:
Good for you. So-
Kim McPherson:
Well, and then, I- I didn't know what I wanted to do.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Had these headhunters call me all the time, "Hey Kim, you know, we've got a great job down here in Dallas." Which, urgh... so my dad calls me up, he goes, "I want you to go to Davis." I go, "Doc, Doc I don't want to get a masters." He said, "No, no." He said, "Denny Webb is a dear friend of mine." He goes-
Doug Shafer:
Dr. Webb up at Davis, yeah.
Kim McPherson:
They were in the American Chemical Society together. And so, Denny Webb, he- he came out here one time for something, he came to our house, and, uh, anyway, he goes, "Denny Webb's going to fix everything up for you."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
I go, "Really?" (Laughing), I said, "How's that?"
Doug Shafer:
That's a great...
Kim McPherson:
And, uh, I went up there, and I met with Dr. Webb, and he said, "Here's how you're going to do it. You're going to become a concurrent student."
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
He said, "It's just like you're a grad-, you're a, you're, you are, like, you graduate, but you're not. You're not going to get another degree."
Doug Shafer:
You just gonna take classes?
Kim McPherson:
"I mean, you're gonna take classes, and- and I'm going to arrange it, and you're going to go to... each - you're gonna get an..." hell, I went to soil science, I went to water, I went up everywhere."
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And did all these knowledge-y classes, he set all that up. And I was there two and a half years. Um, I was well-
Doug Shafer:
So that's what you were doing? I see-
Kim McPherson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... I thought you were, I thought you were getting a masters? Okay.
Kim McPherson:
No, no, I didn't want to do that.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
No, I didn't want to do that.
Doug Shafer:
You just wanted, you just wanted to get the classes, you wanted to learn.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, and I mean, I- I got grades, just like everybody else. Hell, they still send me stuff, I'm an alumni.
Doug Shafer:
Right. (Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
... at Davis. (Laughing), so I said, "Okay." But yeah, I went there for, uh, a little over two years.
Doug Shafer:
What was... how was...
Kim McPherson:
That's when I-
Doug Shafer:
... did you like... who was, who was in your class? Who were some of your peers? You know, I was in one class, but who... I only had one with you.
Kim McPherson:
Oh, gosh, I tell you. The- the one big class you had... well, I had Bruce Cakebread, Dan Seghesio, Randall Graham, uh, Cathy Corison and those guys were grad students.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Kongsgaard, John Kongsgaard, I liked that guy, (laughing), he's a good guy.
Doug Shafer:
He's a good guy.
Kim McPherson:
Uh. Tony Soter was not there, he'd already left. Um. Who else? Bruce Cakebread, and his... Bruce's wife...
Doug Shafer:
Uh, Rosemary? Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Oh gosh, I c-, I'd have to sit down and try to remember-
Doug Shafer:
No, don't- don't worry about it, no -
Kim McPherson:
No, I'm not going to worry about that.
Doug Shafer:
No.
Kim McPherson:
But, yeah, and- and all these guys in the, in the class. You know, there's a lot of Vit's guys that- that were famous now.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Well, I tell you, you go to Dick Grace, no Dick Wa-
Doug Shafer:
Dick Ward.
Kim McPherson:
Was it Dick?
Doug Shafer:
It was Dick, yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Dick Ward-
Doug Shafer:
And David Graves.
Kim McPherson:
Was, uh, he was a grad student.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Uh. Who's the guy that owns Morgan? Dan Lee.
Doug Shafer:
Dan Lee, Morgan, yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Dan Lee, (laughing), God.
Doug Shafer:
Hey look man, you still got it Kim. You're still there...
Kim McPherson:
And David Graves.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
You know I, do you know my... David is, he was always a great guy. And, uh, I bought their bottling line from 'em.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
I got an incredible Virtalaso bottling line, that I bought from Sainsbury's.
Doug Shafer:
We had David on this show just a few weeks ago. It was great to talk to him.
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs). He's a big ol' goober.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughing), yeah.
Kim McPherson:
(Laughing), you know, they were doing 1.5s.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughing), goober. Oh.
Kim McPherson:
They were doing, I got to go, you know, I got their bottling, I go, "Why were you guys doing 1.5s of pinot noir?" You know. It worked.
Doug Shafer:
It worked, it worked. So after Davis, where'd you go? You'd go back to Texas?
Kim McPherson:
No, no, no, no, no.
Doug Shafer:
No?
Kim McPherson:
Uh, you know, Darryl Eclin was, uh, you know, he was my roommate.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Well, not at, not in college, but when we got, when I got out, he was working at Trefethen. And he said to me, "You outta come to work over here at Trefethen." So I go in there, and- and, uh, they hired me.
Doug Shafer:
All right.
Kim McPherson:
Dave Whitehouse, and you know, all those guys, and it... Janet... and so, they hired me. And so, you know, Darryl and I lived down by the marina, somewhere Napa, but it's all built up now.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, down South, there.
Kim McPherson:
And we were roommates, and- and, uh, uh, my wife was living in Burlingame, in California, with her brother. So I'd, you know, go back and forth, and she'd come up to Napa, and, you know, Bill Ward, in there-
Doug Shafer:
When'd you, when'd you guys get married? When you were at Davis?
Kim McPherson:
Where?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, or... do you-
Kim McPherson:
No, no, no, we got, we got married af- after I came back from Davis.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, okay.
Kim McPherson:
And, uh, but, you know, Bill Ward was there and, uh, we'd see each other, and we'd go to all these tasting rooms and shit, and... anyway, that's... and I worked at Trefethen.
Doug Shafer:
Just to what, just cellar job?
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, just- just-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
You know, worked the-
Doug Shafer:
Hauling hoses?
Kim McPherson:
Topping barrels.
Doug Shafer:
Yup.
Kim McPherson:
Cleaning tanks. Actually, Darryl and I used to work for D- Domaine Chandon, for about two months, out of the year, because, you know, that's how Trefethen got started.
Doug Shafer:
How's that?
Kim McPherson:
I mean... well, Domaine Chandon bought all their tanks for 'em.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Because they were building Domaine Chandon, and they didn't have a winery, and old John Trefethen, he said, "Hey. Get all my tanks here, and you can do it here, and we'll share the tanks." Because, you know, they were out of the tanks.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
W-, Trefethen needed the tanks, so to speak.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
'Cause they had a crush pad there, and we- we- we would crush sparkling wine grapes. And we- we'd b-, Darryl and I'd drag tanks into a tanker, chill that stuff, drag it into a tanker, and then drive it up the hill to Domaine Chandon.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause they didn't have tanks, yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And then when the sparkling ran out, then we started picking, you know, regular grapes for Trefethen, it was a great deal.
Doug Shafer:
It is a good deal.
Kim McPherson:
And then they finally put in all their tanks, so...
Doug Shafer:
All right, so you were at Trefethen, how long were you at Trefethen?
Kim McPherson:
Little over a year.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And man, I wanted to stay, bad. And my dad, he called the markers in.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, (laughs), man.
Kim McPherson:
Said, "You- you owe me." And I said, "I don't owe you nothin'."
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
No, really?
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs). Bad.
Doug Shafer:
So dad said, "Come home,"?
Kim McPherson:
He said, "You've got to come home and help me run, Llano Estacado. You've gotta come over here." And I said, "God dern, Doc, Man." You know, "It's really pretty out here, and it's really cool, and..."
Doug Shafer:
Why'd you want, why'd you want to stay here? Be- besides the pretty-
Kim McPherson:
Well because, back then, it was really nice.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
It was laid back and, you know, that's a funny story too, 'cause, uh, Darryl asked him one time at ASCV, and I go, "How's Napa?" And he goes, "Well Kim, remember all those millionaires that came in and bought everything up?" And I said, "Yeah." And he goes, "Well, there's billionaires are coming in and buying them out."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs). Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And I went, "Yes, it's kinda got out of hand." And I said, "Well, oh well." But, uh, I had a great time there. And the Trefethen's, when I left, they- they threw an incredible surprise party for me. In that, in that, you know, the- the- the big house, right over there on the property?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Well, the-
Kim McPherson:
Oh my God. They- they- they kidded me that, I mean, they were like, "Now, go over there and clean... we need for you to go to the pool house over there and," da da da da da, and I said, "Okay." Yeah, and I run over there, and then everybody was in there, my wife, and all these people, and they had their chef, and I mean, it was un-, it was unreal.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Kim McPherson:
And I thought, well, I guess I did something right.
Doug Shafer:
You made a, you made an impression. You always do, by the way.
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
Oh God, I hope it's a good one, but, yeah, it was a good time there.
Doug Shafer:
So dad dragged you back, so were you kicking and screaming, or just kicking a little bit?
Kim McPherson:
Kicking a little bit-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Kim McPherson:
Because I wanted to make, you know, cabernet, you know, I wanted to do chardonnay-
Doug Shafer:
Right,
Kim McPherson:
I wanted to do these varieties that, you know, we were doing in Napa. And, uh, you know, and back then, and I will say this, because of climate change, it was a lot cooler here-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
... in the summer. I mean, 90 would be a pretty good warm day.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
It did go down to, like, 52, 54 at night.
Doug Shafer:
See, that's good to know, because I think a lot of us, who don't know the Texas scene, it's like, you know, "Oh, it's just hot as hell all the time." You know, everywhere.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So that's-
Kim McPherson:
It is, it's bone dry here too. There's-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
... very little humidity. And so, you know, we were making fairly, I thought, decent chardonnay. And the cabs, you know, I did well in competitions with cab and, you know, chardonnay, it was the first double gold medal winning wine in Texas, and San Francisco.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And that freaked everybody out, it's like, "Well, you know," but it did... chardonnay, it didn't last, it... when it got warmer, and it-
Doug Shafer:
It was too-
Kim McPherson:
... budded out so early. Anyway.
Doug Shafer:
It was too hot.
Kim McPherson:
Too hot.
Doug Shafer:
But other varietals do well, right?
Kim McPherson:
Well, now that's where Soter came in, when I-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, tell me about that.
Kim McPherson:
When I left, I had, I have a very storied history in the wine business. I left Llano, I was there about five years.
Doug Shafer:
Working with your dad.
Kim McPherson:
And-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, but they, he, they sold that wine, well, they needed money. So they got in these big rich guys-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
... and the rich guys kinda took the whole thing over, and- and my dad, he got disillusioned, and he became a minor stock holder, and I said, "You know Doc, I'm outta here."
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Kim McPherson:
And so-
Doug Shafer:
It's tough.
Kim McPherson:
... there was a winery going in, that was, that had a bunch... that was raising money. And it was called, it was called, Teysha. And this winery was an ultra modern winery, it's probably three miles from, Llano.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And it... Mac Pall was the engineer that put in Mondavi's Woodbridge plant. He designed this whole winery. Unbelievable.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Kim McPherson:
I mean, this thing, you know, "You could do, you know, 50 tons a day with gondolas and all this stuff," it was great.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Still there. And so my... they got my dad involved in that, and, we saw the handwriting on the wall, that they were spending way too much money.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
And my dad goes, "I'm getting out of this." And he... they bought him out.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
So when they did that, you know, I was going to be the winemaker there, and this story, it's a great story, it's a true story, and I said, "No, I'm not." And they held my feet to the fire, they said, "You're going to do this," you know, "Or we're going to," you know, "Not buy your dad's grapes," and all this.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And I said, "Look, I'll sign whatever you want me to sign, just, get rid of the contract with my dad, because he's going to go to Llano with his grapes." And so they did that, but then I said, "Screw you." And so, um-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
... I went to the Central Coast. Well, no, I didn't go to the Central Coast then, (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
So you took off?
Kim McPherson:
Well, there was another winery north of Dallas going in, by a bunch of rich guys.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
You just love to, you just love to hang out with rich guys, don't you.
Kim McPherson:
Rich people, just love to get into me-
Doug Shafer:
You just love that. (Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
But one of them was a dentist for the Dallas Cowboys, uh, one of them was Bruce Crampton, the professional golfer. Uh, he was part of the thing. One of them was the chairman of the board at E-Systems, which was a huge defense company in Fort Worth. They were all these rich guys.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Land guys, so we- we built this cool little winery, up in the woods. And, uh, you know, it was fun for about three years. And then that went belly up.
Doug Shafer:
What was the name of that one?
Kim McPherson:
It was called, uh, Texas Vineyards.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And then, Showpal Hill.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And a doctor ended up with that winery, and he donated that little winery to Grayson County college-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
... for a training winery.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
It's still there. But that's when is said, "No, I'm done, I'm going to go back to California." So I went to the Central Coast. And there was a place called the Central Coast Wine Warehouse.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Which was the old CBS Record plant in Santa Maria. And the Miller family, which owned Bien Nacido, French Camp, big- big grape growing family, in- in Santa Maria-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
... on the Central Coast. They bought that, and they were ... they had the Central Coast Wine Warehouse.
Doug Shafer:
As a, as a winery? Got it.
Kim McPherson:
As a... well, anybody want to come in there.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Me and Lane Tanner were the first ones to go in there. You know, who Lane Tanner is?
Doug Shafer:
I do, I remember Lane. Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Uh, great gal, anyway, she loved pinot noir. And so, we had a little ol' space... we had a bonded winery space, I think it was about 20 by 20.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
But then we used all their crush equipment, and we used all their tanks, you know... you know how that sh- shit goes?
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Kim McPherson:
And so, I said, "Well, I'm going to make chardonnay, from, um, Bien Nacido." And, I was making, true story here, I was making chardonnay, but I wasn't selling it for enough money, they said.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs). So they said, we're not gonna, we're not gonna sell you chardonnay. 'Cause I was selling it for, like, 18 bucks a bottle, and they said, "No, this stuff should be like 35 or 40." And I go, "Come on guys," you know, "I'm a friend of the working man."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Well, I said, "Okay, that's fine." So, I went down to Santa Maria Hills Vineyards. And I made this chardonnay at the Central Coast Wine Warehouse, and Dan Berger, you know who he is?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, of course, wine writer.
Kim McPherson:
He got, he was the wine writer for the Los Angeles Times.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
He picked this wine up, I made 330 cases, he made it the wine of the week in the L.A. Times. Sold all of it in an hour.
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Kim McPherson:
To the Duke of Bourbon, to High Times, to High... you know these-
Doug Shafer:
All the, all the top-
Kim McPherson:
... um, Wallys.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, Wallys, all the top retailers in Southern California.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, they bought it all boo. (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
And, so I was doing that, and- and-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Well, that's when I went down to Temecula, and I'm still getting fruit from Central Coast-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
... and the- the winery I told you about, Teysha, remember?
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Kim McPherson:
Well, it went bankrupt.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. (Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
And the bank that picked it up, was a bank that was owned by a guy that I grew up across the street from. And he gives me a phone call.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
And, (laughing), he says, he says, uh, "Kim, I want you to come back and run this winery." And I said, "Oh, I don't know." Alan, his name was Alan White.
Kim McPherson:
He made, he made me an incredible offer. But I said I- I still want my own label, he said, "No problem." And, uh, I came back, and- and- and took that winery over.
Doug Shafer:
Back to Lub-
Kim McPherson:
You know, he put both my girls through college-
Doug Shafer:
Back to Lubbock right?
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, I raised two great girls there, my wife, I brought her back over here, and everybody goes, "How d'you do." And I said, "Niquil (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
But she woke up, she goes, "Where am I?" I said, "Paradise baby." (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Oh man. (Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Niquil. So you- you moved back to Lubbock. When, what, to work at, uh, what's the winery called? What was it called?
Kim McPherson:
It was called Teysha, but they renamed it CapRock Winery.
Doug Shafer:
That's the one, okay. And it's-
Kim McPherson:
And so here's the other funny part of the story. So, you know, they're- they're trying to figure out how to run this thing, and Alan turns to me and goes, "Kim, we're going to fly you up to Napa. Get in the jet, we're going to fly to Napa." And I said, "Oh yeah, great."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
He said, "We're going to meet some people that are going to be some consultants." I said, "Oh, that's good." He said, "You good with that?" I said, "I'm good with that."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
Well, uh, one of the consultants, was Robert Craig-
Doug Shafer:
Great vineyard grow- gra- grape grower, and, uh-
Kim McPherson:
Elizabeth Pressler.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. A- another good wine maker.
Kim McPherson:
Elizabeth Pressler.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And Tony Soter.
Doug Shafer:
We all know Tony.
Kim McPherson:
And, they br-, they- they would fly 'em out here, and we'd fly up to Colorado to Alan's place, and we had a strategy, and we had this session... Elizabeth did the packaging, packaging and Robert Craig did the, the, the accounting and marketing thing on it and Soter was, he was my consultant, and this is where I had the famous epiphany that it's too hot here to grow cab and everything else.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Kim McPherson:
Tony, Tony did that for me.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, Kim, you gotta... I gotta stop you for a minute. What year was this? What are you talking about? Where were we?
Kim McPherson:
'90 or '90... '91 I think.
Doug Shafer:
All right. We're gonna get back to you in two seconds, but, um, you don't know this. Tony worked with me in '86 through early '88 with Elias and me and I turned our world inside out, upside down, and made us, um, helped us become really, really solid winemakers. And I, I, meaning Elias and me and Shafer owe so much to Tony Soter and his, uh, everything he taught us. So it sounds like you've got a similar story, so go for it.
Kim McPherson:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
I wanna hear it.
Kim McPherson:
I, I, I lo- I loved it. I mean, he was incredible.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
He said, Kim, it's way too hot here. I said, "Well, I'd love for you to tell the bankers that."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
And you know, he was... He taught me so many little tricks.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Kim McPherson:
Like, uh, you know, we made a red wine. He said, "Kim, let's add 10% Reisling to that. I go, "Are you su-, you're kidding." He goes, "No, it's... It'll be incredible."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
He's like... Dear God, I mean we, you know it's like, yeah. You... Just little things, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And, and, and, uh, you know, the, the thing one thing that he taught me, you know, we'd get a red wine in lab and I'd go, "God, I mean this thing." He goes, "We were gonna add uh, since we sterile bottle everything, we were gonna add, we're gonna add like two grams per liter of sugar." And I go, you know, that just freaked me out.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
But what, what it did to the wine was unbelievable.
Doug Shafer:
It made the wine taste better, and that's what- no. It's just fills it out. It's just round.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Um, aren't we in business to make wine to taste good?
Kim McPherson:
That's what I think.
Doug Shafer:
That... well, I'm in your camp.
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs). I'm no expert.
Doug Shafer:
Well, well, I'm a member of that club too. (Laughs). So there you go. (laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And so it was just like a... The, the day of like, you know, you guys ought to be planting, you know, having carignan and you know this and that and... So that's, that's where I said no more ... people know me now. Don't get him on cab."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
People come into, um, the tasting room and I go, "Go to Napa if you want some cab."
Doug Shafer:
Well, yeah. Gr... Everything, you know everything has its place.
Kim McPherson:
Bill Ward once told me if he owned Napa Valley he would have nothing in it but Cabernet and Merlot and the red grapes for Bordeaux. He said, "That's the only thing I'd planting to this valley." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Well, and that, and, and that's kind of happening, you know. The majority of the red acreage just is Cabernet up here now. And it makes sense 'cause it does really well here. It's a good spot for it. So, you know, yeah-
Kim McPherson:
It's a great spot. The greatest spot in the country for it, I think.
Doug Shafer:
Yep, yep. So you're at CapRock and you were there, you were there a long time.
Kim McPherson:
16 and a half years.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And so you're running it, you know, what size of operation was it when you were there?
Kim McPherson:
Oh, we were probably, our biggest year we were probably doing 24, 25 thousand cases.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, serious winery. And uh-
Kim McPherson:
Yeah. Had a great Virtilaso bottle in he-, I mean it's very modern winery. Everything in that thing was just you know, custom made Mueller tanks, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Kim McPherson:
You know, everything was beautiful. But then the feds came in and told the, the bank, "You gotta get out of the business. You can't keep running a, a business."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Regulators.
Doug Shafer:
What, why, why they say that?
Kim McPherson:
Because banks aren't supposed to be in the business, to own a business, and run a business.
Doug Shafer:
I see, okay.
Kim McPherson:
They, so they, they, they sold the winery to some, some guys out of New York. And that's when it all went south.
Doug Shafer:
Oh man.
Kim McPherson:
So uh, now it's called English Newsom and one of my grower buddies and another guy bought it and, and uh, they're running it and... And I've got an in-, I have an intern. That's the one winemaker. He interned here. I had three winery, winemakers in Texas that interned for me.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Kim McPherson:
So, anyhoo, but while I was at, while I was at CapRock.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
My little brother came to California 1985 and he wanted to make sparkling wine. And so, he got an internship at Piper Sonoma but it was only for 6 months. And he said, "You know, I don't think I wanna do that." And there was a, a winery down in Fallbrook way down southern California called Culbertson.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And, this, he said, "I'll give you a full time job you know, you’re not the winemaker, but you know, you assist a wine maker." So my brother took it. He has a degree in food science. He didn't got to Davis. So he goes down there and uh, the wine maker... I don't know he, he twisted off with his wife or something and they, they just split.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Kim McPherson:
And so John Culbertson said, "John, I'm gonna give you 6 months to prove yourself, you're the winemaker." And from that point on, you know, and they used to, they used a... What was the guy, at Mumm. Ca-
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Kim McPherson:
Uh.
Doug Shafer:
He started, oh he started at Schramsberg. He was, Elias worked for him a couple summers, yeah, yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Well, he, he went to Davis too.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
God, I can't remember his name. Rob Davis, though, hi- him and my brother were buddies and - uh, he was at Schramsberg. The guy that, that was a big shot at Mumm. He put Mumm together through the French. Can't remember his name.
Doug Shafer:
I know, I can't either. But I know you -
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, well, he was John's consultant and, and John became a little, quite the well known, you know, the method champonise sparkling wine guy.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Kim McPherson:
And then, that winery got bought out and, and he moved to Temecula with a very rich guy that was in the uh, software business. This, this guy lived in the Wrigley house.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
In LaJolla
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
(laughs) His name was John Thorton. And so my brother was there and, and, and from Thorton he moved to south coast.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Kim McPherson:
And so, he's been the winemaker there since '85. Going though back to that though, John got me into judging.
Doug Shafer:
Oh really? You're a judger-
Kim McPherson:
And-
Doug Shafer:
For all these events.
Kim McPherson:
So, I have been a judge for about 25 or 28 years. Where do you judge? Well I've judged everywhere, San Diego, LA, uh, San Bern-, Pacific Rim, uh... I do about three judgings a year. Sa- San Diego international, but my big, the ma- the one that I'm most proud of is TexSomm.
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Which is th- or Dallas Morning News.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
It is the hardest competition in America. It's, it's-
Doug Shafer:
And it's like, being a judge, it's like how many days and how many wines a day do you go through?
Kim McPherson:
Well, though the funny thing is at TexSomm, there's only three winemakers.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
The rest of them are masters of wine and master somms and journalists from all over the world. They have over 4,000 wines.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And they bring in si-, their 60 judge- you know Dawnine Dyer?
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Kim McPherson:
That's mama, mama Dawnine, you know like to call when mama, mama Dawnine. She's there and, and then me and then another winemaker and that's it.
Doug Shafer:
Oh wow.
Kim McPherson:
Freddie Dame is there. Fred Dame is always there.
Doug Shafer:
Of course.
Kim McPherson:
Uh, who else do you know from that... Doug Frost is there.
Doug Shafer:
Good uh, I know Doug.
Kim McPherson:
Um, oh gosh. There's a just a bunch of wine writers and-
Doug Shafer:
That's fun and you, so you do all those wines and what? You do them like in two or three days, something like that?
Kim McPherson:
It takes us two days-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
To do that. But I've judged and, and I've learned so much about you know, wines and, and uh... You know, I had... And I entered these, I entered these competitions because I kinda wanna see you know, how we stand up, are we doing this right?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Uh, and I, this is another story th-, w- while I've ha-, I've had this winery here. There was two women where I get on my grapes from down here in this Terry County about 30 miles south.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Kim McPherson:
I'm gonna get into that. And they planted Albariño. And that's the coldest climate grape I have unless you're in Portugal.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And I said, "Why did you all plant Albariño." I said, "What was the last stuff they had at the nursery?" (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) That's a good one.
Kim McPherson:
And I went, "Okay, so they have like, two acres of Albariño or three acres." And they said, "We want you to make Albariño," I said, "Hell, I've never made Albariño in my life." When I make Albariño, in the, second year, it's the grand champion San Bernadino and old Fred Dame goes, "What the hell are you doing?"
Doug Shafer:
There you go. There you go.
Kim McPherson:
So we can make Albariño here. But is it a big seller for him? Yeah, I do 400 cases.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. That's a great grape. So y-, hey-
Kim McPherson:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
You know, so just for fun, could you mind taking like just five minutes to give me a 30 or you-
Kim McPherson:
Case closed 'cause I need to call my wife. She's called me three times.
Doug Shafer:
You gotta call her? Want to take a break?
Kim McPherson:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
All right. Um...
Kim McPherson:
What do you want me to do?
Doug Shafer:
You're gonna hang up, you're gonna hang up, call your wife, and I'll call you back in what, 10 minutes?
Kim McPherson:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
All right. I'll call you back in 10. See ya.
Kim McPherson:
All right, thanks. Bye.
Doug Shafer:
Bye.
Kim McPherson:
So what I'm doing down here, I just pick up trash and do around here.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah, oh by the way, I, I got a, I, I have confession to make. We talked the other day it was pretty funny 'cause we got, we, we got off the phone call, you left your phone on.
Kim McPherson:
Oh really?
Doug Shafer:
Oh it was hilarious' cause it was like, it's like, 'Cause you were like, "God..." (laughs) It was the day you were trying to get two generators or something going and you're like, "Did you get that switch on? You gotta watch it before it gets hot. Now goddamnit, (laughs) don't get, get over there now. You get that other thing up on. We gotta get that thing online. Let's go." I was like going -
Kim McPherson:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You were, you were on it. It was you know, I only listened for like 2 minutes. It was pretty funny. But you were like, you were like running the show. You're you know, taking care of business. I loved it.
Kim McPherson:
Well, that’s the shits you know, when you’re the owner you know.
Doug Shafer:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Kim McPherson:
And I was, I was picking up trash, I picked up trash here everyday.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Downtown here you know. One of my growers drives it, he goes, "Oh, you look like you got a promotion." And I was like, "Yep."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Yeah. I'm in, I'm in charge of the waste water ponds here. That's my job. So...
Kim McPherson:
(laughs) well I, that's why I'm in the city because I didn't want that anymore.
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah, we gotta talk about that. So all right, are you ready to hear, we- we- we'll kept this, kept this thing kicking.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
All right, so hey, Kim, just take a minute because I know a lot of folks don't know about the Texas wine market and grape growing areas and production. In fact, you know, I'm, I'm not that up on it, because I, I've a confession to make. I always thought the only place they grew grapes in Texas for it was down near Austin in what they call the Hill, Hill Country?
Kim McPherson:
For yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, which is so, can you give a you know, just like give a you know, thr- three thousand feet overview of grapes and wine in Texas. It's a big state.
Kim McPherson:
Well, yeah. (laughs) That it is. But there, I can't remember how many AVAs there are. There's maybe 10. You have the High Plains, you have the Hill country, you've got Trans-Pecos, you've got... I don't know.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
But 90% of the grapes that are used in this state come from up here on the High Plains.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Into- from, from Terry County and Yoakum County.
Doug Shafer:
So -
Kim McPherson:
Up here probably, you know-
Doug Shafer:
So, 90, 90, 90% in your area. That's the maj- so vast majority.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah. That and 30 miles from me south. And when I say, uh, the grapes, you know, there's probably only... You know, this is like 4,500 acres, maybe 4,800 acres of grape, 4,800. And that's it. And then you go down to Hill Country and there may be another 400 or 500. But most of it's grown up here and-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And you know, that, those a, that's not a lot of grapes.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Right? There's over 400 wineries in this state.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Kim McPherson:
And, a lot of them are down in the Hill Country and on 290, that's between Fredericksburg and Austin. And it's the most second-visited area behind Napa for wineries.
Doug Shafer:
Is it really? I didn't know that.
Kim McPherson:
There is 60 wineries like, I think on 290. In fact, I own part of the winery called 4.0 that I went in with two guys that have wineries, one of them near Fort Worth, and the other out in the middle of nowhere. And we decided we wanted some of that tourist slop money.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Kim McPherson:
And they came to me and they said, "Kim, you know, we're gonna do this." And I said, "Well, I don't have any money." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
I said, "You know, I've got this big ol' wagon I'm pulling downtown here." You know, it's me and LNB, they, we- we're close.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Right, so then, you know, you can do this and put in this much money. You know, we'll have a third of it.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
But they really wanted my wines.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And that, that's okay, that's okay. But I moved probably, I'm gonna say 6, 6,000 cases a year from down there and that's all retail.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's great.
Kim McPherson:
And my accountant says, "Do not rock that boat. Don't rock that boat."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
They said, "Man, that you know, that makes your nut do this." And, and so, yes, you have the Hill Country. And the Hill Country... Doug, it's like this, if, if the Gulf of Mexico was as cold as the Pacific-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
You would have the most incredible grape growing region. You know, riding there in the rocks and everything, it'd be incredible.
Doug Shafer:
Good point.
Kim McPherson:
But it's not.
Doug Shafer:
It's not.
Kim McPherson:
It's not. It's very hot and it's very humid. And you fight that a lot. Okay? You fight-
Doug Shafer:
So they're fightin that humidity, okay.
Kim McPherson:
Oh, the disease pressure-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Holds them.
Doug Shafer:
This is humidity during the summer, the growing season for gr-
Kim McPherson:
Oh yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's the what, that's what we're talking about, yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause it's wet.
Kim McPherson:
They get 35 inches of rain a year.
Doug Shafer:
And it rains during the growing season too.
Kim McPherson:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
Big time.
Kim McPherson:
Oh like high hill country rain, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
But, the little shower coming up, then I've gotta go into that vineyard and I've gotta spray 'em.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Kim McPherson:
Gotta keep it sprayed, I've gotta keep it sprayed.
Doug Shafer:
Keep the mildew down.
Kim McPherson:
Oh, all the time. And the insect pressure.
Doug Shafer:
Interesting. So, they've got the tourist 'cause they're pretty close to Austin. I think it's within an hour or so-
Kim McPherson:
Or they're really good close to San Antonio.
Doug Shafer:
Antonio so that's-
Kim McPherson:
So an hour from San Antonio and an hour from Austin.
Doug Shafer:
Local tourists, big time, but tough place-
Kim McPherson:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
To grow grapes. Of, a number of you know, few hundred acres, 4 or 500, but so muc-
Kim McPherson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Majorities up where you are 'cause growing season, you don't have that humidity you were just talks, talking about earlier.
Kim McPherson:
I don't have humidity. Uh, it's, it's you know, very dry. Everything's on drip here.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
There, I'm gonna say this down in Hill Country, there are a couple of growers that have really made a, they've really done well. But you know, they'll tell you they fight.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. It's, it's a battle.
Kim McPherson:
Um, it's a battle. No, it's not, you know, it's not easy here, up here. Our, our big problem is spring frost.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay, before you go into frost though, y- y- you're, uh, earlier you said you don't get, you get hot but you're not super hot and u- that's probably because your elevation is cooler in a way.
Kim McPherson:
Right, right.
Doug Shafer:
Okay so that... so then spring frost, you get, what happens there.
Kim McPherson:
Well, you know, it, it, you'll get these say two or three inches out and you know, it may get 28 degrees.
Doug Shafer:
Ooo...
Kim McPherson:
So, what these growers have done, these really good growers now, they've got these incredible fans and heaters.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And they, they've been you know, beatin it. We didn't have one this year. We had one close but we didn't.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
They, they had everything running so it, it, it made it. And uh, so that's what we have. But then after the frost, then we got the famous hail storms.
Doug Shafer:
Oh that's right. You guys got hail storms (laughs). You don't have tornadoes too, do you?
Kim McPherson:
No, the tornadoes, well, knock on wood-
Doug Shafer:
Knock on wood.
Kim McPherson:
The tornadoes, have kinda moved to the east.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
You know, more like in Oklahoma and you know, where it's humid.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah
Kim McPherson:
Where it's very humid. Uh, so, no, not really tornadoes. But you know, you'll get... We drop if you go 15 miles east of where I'm sittin right now, you drop off about 1,600 feet.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Kim McPherson:
Off this plateau.
Doug Shafer:
Okay
Kim McPherson:
And so, you'll have these storms, the moisture comin up form the Gulf and then it'll build right up on this cap rock, and they may or may not come up on the plains. They may stay off the cap rock. Then, you go, I could be at 10,000 feet in four hours to the west, the mountains. And so, this is where our storms come from. They build up and they move across and you have these thunder storms in... you can get hailed out.
Doug Shafer:
Oh. And what, hail-
Kim McPherson:
Hail.
Doug Shafer:
Hail basically tears leaves apart and messes up the clusters.
Kim McPherson:
Oh, w- well depending on the hail.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
If you get pea sized hail and a high wind, it'll shred you there.
Doug Shafer:
So if leaves are, leaves are torn up, they can't produce sugars to ripen the fruit, heck -
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, you, you-
Doug Shafer:
But their clusters is probably get just totally torn up too.
Kim McPherson:
Oh yeah, you'll, and they’re, and the clusters are, are basically you know, still green.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
They're bigger than a pea but soon as that hail ball hits, then you got, you got damage. So what these guys are doing now and I have to do it at my dad's vineyard, I have to bird net it. Because now he's in town, and it's like the country club out there. For the birds.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Got it.
Kim McPherson:
Used to not do that, but now these guys are, some of them are putting hail netting on and it serves as bird netting too.
Doug Shafer:
So, okay, 'cause we, there is, there is a, here, we, people use bird netting, but you use, you're using netting tighter, tighter mesh to protect the vineyard from hail.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah and it works.
Doug Shafer:
It works. Wow.
Kim McPherson:
But it's an added cost you know.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
They have these machines and they, they roll it up and then they, they... My netting stays on year round. We just roll it down in entirely.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
But, see, I'll have to pay to have that brought over in July to keep the birds out of it.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Kim McPherson:
So we're in the hail season now. It's coming up.
Doug Shafer:
Oh man. Well, good luck. I hope it stays away.
Kim McPherson:
Well, it is what it is.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Uh, so we have that going for us, but... Meantime, the grapes that are being grown-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Are exactly what we need to be growing here. Uh, Mourvede, probably one of the best red grapes we have.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Carignan, uh, Cinsault, Cinsault loves it here.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Of course, Tempranillo. There's probably, I was asking them that... I had the high flames grape growers president here. She was here and I said, "How many acres of Tempranillo you're up?" And she was, "Maybe 300 acres of Tempranillo."
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Kim McPherson:
And, you know, uh, Tempranillo, we've got uh, Sangiovese. My dad was the first guy to plant Sangiovese.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
In 1973. Beautiful grape here. Loves the heat. You know it didn’t like Atlas Peak.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) that's out here in Napa. So-
Kim McPherson:
And they uh, they uh, they moved, you know, they planted that all back to Cab.
Doug Shafer:
They did. They did. So, uh, so basically the same old story matching the right grape with the right place and that's where you guys have been doing.
Kim McPherson:
That's what we've been doing but, you know, we still have some knuckleheads that-
Doug Shafer:
(laugh)
Kim McPherson:
I've planted 15 acres of Pinot Noir, we thought, "Why?"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Well, no, really someone-
Kim McPherson:
You know, 30 acres of Reisling. But why?
Doug Shafer:
30, 30 (laughs). You know, maybe just plant two or three and see how it does. You know? Kinda like your dad did? Kind like your like dad did, just try it out, you know.
Kim McPherson:
Well, y- you can tell him to go, "Don't do that here. It's too hot."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
You know, my wife loves Reisling. Well, go to the store and get her some, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Get her some, some from Germany, Alsace
Kim McPherson:
Germany, or... Washington state or so.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Now, what white grapes that are wonderful here is Viognier.
Doug Shafer:
Interesting. That's cool.
Kim McPherson:
Viongier is sort of our state white grape. There's no wineries making Viognier.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Do the growers like it? Mm, the, you know Viognier is like Syrah. One year it's great the next year it's terrible.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
But it makes incredible white wine.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Kim McPherson:
It does. Uh, Roussanne. I love Roussanne.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Kim McPherson:
Uh, Andy planted some more Marsanne for me. He planted two acres of Picpoul for me, Picpoul blanche.
Doug Shafer:
Really?
Kim McPherson:
Th- that grape, that was a-
Doug Shafer:
I've-
Kim McPherson:
That grape was the best white grape that San Francisco international, about two years ago, because I've never made Picpoul and-
Doug Shafer:
Well, I just started drinking it. It's delicious. (laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Well, we make Picpoul.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Kim McPherson:
And uh, the, you know, I can't, hell, I can leave it outside the liquor store store and people won't steal it.
Doug Shafer:
Right. (laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Stack it up, they just don't steal it. So, you know, they won't take Poul
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Oh man.
Doug Shafer:
You know something, listen
Kim McPherson:
Go ahead. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I'll tell you what's gonna go ahead. As soon as it's, as soon as I feel good about getting on a plane, I'm coming to see you. I'm just, I've, I've had it.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, you're gonna have a place to stay.
Doug Shafer:
I, I'm, I'm, at your knocking on your door. I have a case of Picpoul with me. Anyway, all right so-
Kim McPherson:
Picpoul Blac uh, the other white grape that I have, I have, I have loved from day one here, is Chenin Blanc.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Nice.
Kim McPherson:
And it does very well. Uh...
Doug Shafer:
That's i- interesting. Does well in the heat. That's g-, that's good to hear.
Kim McPherson:
The, the, loves to heat. I don't make a lot of it, but I make it bone dry, and, uh, I have that on the East Coast, you know, I'm in, like, four states on the East Coast.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
I'm the only winery going out of state.
Doug Shafer:
Really?
Kim McPherson:
You know, in a- in a big sort of way, yeah, and, uh, I've ha- I've been on there seven years, and I've had that in w- in, uh, Jose and... one of Jose Andreas' restaurants for, like, four years by the glass.
Doug Shafer:
Good for you.
Kim McPherson:
Because the great sommelier by the name of Andy Myers, what a guy.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I know Andy. Well, good for you. tell me about, we haven't talked about your own place. Tell- you started making your own, when did you start making your own label? And tell me the, how'd that come about? And how'd it grow? And wh- where you're at now in that whole thing?
Kim McPherson:
I first, I first started making it out of CapRock.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
... and I was making, I made a little bit of Cab, and I said, "No, you know what?" Out of my dad's stuff, I said, "You know, I'm going to, I'm going to do Sangiovese." My little brother taught my daddy to plant Sangiovese. You know what? Darrell Corti, you know Darryl the-
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Kim McPherson:
Great icon, Darrell Corti, he's- he has- he's had my brother, and me, send our Sangioveses, I've sent them twice to Italy through this Sangiovese Symposium, because he thought they were very indicative of the variety.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And so, I've done that, and- and they- it... You gotta try if they're just a great Sangiovese.
Doug Shafer:
I want to.
Kim McPherson:
For the money.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
I'll send you some vino.
Doug Shafer:
Deal, I'll-
Kim McPherson:
I got to get some.
Doug Shafer:
... yeah, send me some, I'll- we'll do a trade. Send me- send me something, and I'll send you back.
Kim McPherson:
Oh, I was (laughs), I'm going to trade you (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
No, no-
Kim McPherson:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
Hey, hey.
Kim McPherson:
Aw-
Doug Shafer:
We go- we go bottle for bottle. We, uh, price has no issue. Bottle for bottle, buddy.
Kim McPherson:
But we, uh-
Doug Shafer:
I'm good with that.
Kim McPherson:
... we, we love Sangiovese. I run out of it every year. I do 1300 cases, 1350. I'm out for three months and it doesn't bother anybody.
Doug Shafer:
Good for you. Way to go.
Kim McPherson:
So, you know, it's not a big thing, but it grows well here.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Uh, going back to a real quick story, you remember, Neil... Uh, who has Far Niente, what was his uh ...
Doug Shafer:
Oh, uh ...
Kim McPherson:
Gil Nickels.
Doug Shafer:
Gil Nickel. Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, remember he was in our class too.
Doug Shafer:
He was! Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
He was in the vit class, remember he used to come and he would have the full race leathers on 'cause he had a BMW and I thought those coolest shit.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And he lived in San Francisco 'cause he had a flight attendant wife.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And this guy had a ton of money and god I mean god this guy was like, whoa! And he was from Oklahoma.
Doug Shafer:
Oklahoma Nursery Business, that's where he made his money and came out here and started Far Niente.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, he came to me and he says, "Kim, could you take notes for me" and ... finally I said "Yeah, yeah sure." So I'd take notes and give him copies and ... so, one time I had a friend, this was- it was six months before he died, seven months maybe, cancer you know. So I had a friend goes, "Hey, I'm going to Far Niente," and I said, "Oh great," so I said, "Here, give my card to old- to Gil, give it to him, and I wrote on the back, I said, "You still owe me beer money."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And the guy sent me a case of wine in a wooden box, Chardonnay and Cabernet and a little note, he goes, "All right, I don't owe you any more beer money, have some of my swill."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs), oh he was a really sweet man.
Kim McPherson:
So, he was a great guy. That's a little story from Davis class.
Doug Shafer:
Oh man, haven't heard that one.
Kim McPherson:
So, anyway, we grow these varieties now, and I think I've got a lot of farmer, growers that are old cotton farmers that are really good growers ...
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
They do everything right, and I think they know, you know, what sells in this state is- is- you know, I do a lot of blends, but its all Rhone and Italian varieties, uh- some Spanish stuff. We have- I have some Graciano, Tempranillo and of course Mourvedre and Granache and Carignan are Spanish. And I blend those with Tempranillo and then I have a Rhone blend.
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Kim McPherson:
And I guess you don't know, too, the story of Dave Phinney.
Doug Shafer:
No, tell me about it. Well I know Dave Phinney.
Kim McPherson:
You know, Dave ...
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, Dave Phinney is ...
Kim McPherson:
He's a good, he's been here now and we got ... we got plenty drunk.
Doug Shafer:
I would think, yeah I could see that happening.
Kim McPherson:
I said, "I think I could hang out with you for a while". (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Now, Dave ...
Kim McPherson:
He ...
Doug Shafer:
Okay, Dave's great.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, he came here with his wholesaler and we got to drinking 'cause his wholesaler wanted to do some ... he said, "Why can't we do a TX label?" Dave goes, "Okay, let's do a TX label."
Doug Shafer:
'Cause that's his ... uh, Dave's got this- this brand with a ...
Kim McPherson:
Locations.
Doug Shafer:
Location brands, Texas, TX, okay, got it, okay.
Kim McPherson:
So, we started this and he said, "I want your name on the back label too, and all this stuff and so we ... I've been doin' it now for, I guess this is our fifth year, or sixth year.
Doug Shafer:
Oh fun.
Kim McPherson:
But last year, Dave calls me up and he says, "Kim, I know I read the papers." And he sold it to Gallo.
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Kim McPherson:
And I said, "Well good for you," and I said, "Well," I said, "They're probably not gonna wanna keep doing TX." And he said, "No, Kim, they wanna keep that one." He said, "They wanted to know if you could do 30,000 cases," and I went "Wh- wh- no!"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs). Come on Kim.
Kim McPherson:
I said no ...
Doug Shafer:
Crank it up baby!
Kim McPherson:
You said you're gonna get a letter from Gallo and all this stuff and I said, "Okay," and I thought oh boy, here ... and I said I was kind of scared.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And so they sent me a 28 page contract you know, and I was "Golly!"
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
You know, and they ... I looked it over and- and then my- my- my son in law is a lawyer in Napa at Dickerson, Peatman and you know ...
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Them. So I said, I'm gonna have a lawyer look at this. And he told me, he said, "Can't do it KMac, we represented Phinney." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Ooh, damn! So, you know, we went over the contract and we changed a few things but you know, Gallo was very, you know, they were very nice and uh, they sent three guys out here and while we were bottling. And I thought they were gonna came and they'd stay sittin' and then they just showed up, but you know they came into this winery and they were just totally blown away.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Kim McPherson:
They did not ... they said they "Were very apprehensive 'cause we've never done anything in Texas and we didn't know what we would find" and they were just ... "Your winery is so clean, it's so this, it's so that," and we went "Thank you guys, that's how we do things here."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And they were just ... they were so nice and the only thing that we weren't doin' is that we weren't swabbing after, you know, we sterilize.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And I said, "No problem, we can do that."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Huh.
Kim McPherson:
And they were happy. And uh, I have a ... I have a contract with 'em and you know, right now it's still workin', it's an evergreen contract and ...
Doug Shafer:
Well good.
Kim McPherson:
We'll see but you know, that- that right there, Doug, was a thing for me to say, maybe that- that we can do things here in Texas and that may be the big tide that can raise the boats.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Kim McPherson:
I don't know.
Doug Shafer:
Sure. No listen, it's more exposure for Texas wines, you know, I've had a lot of Texas wines. You know, when I travel down there it's fun to try the local stuff and no, the quality's great and it's getting better all the time so it's just a matter of exposure, getting it out there for people.
Kim McPherson:
Well, yeah, and you know, getting it where you can afford ... I mean, some of this wine's not worth 50 bucks a bottle. I mean, anyway, that's just my opinion but uh, you know, it- it's workin' right now.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
So, the Gallo thing and Dave, what a great guy ...
Doug Shafer:
And your wine ...
Kim McPherson:
Lives in St. Helena and he came here, huh?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. So your winery's downtown Lubbock.
Kim McPherson:
Downtown Lubbock.
Doug Shafer:
And so ... cool, so you guys are cranking along and um, you and I both had the pleasure of working with our fathers and we've lost them both in the last few years.
Kim McPherson:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Question for you, you think your Dad knew how much impact he had on the whole Texas wine thing? You think he ... did he really know by the- what he did for that whole industry?
Kim McPherson:
Uh, yeah, in his ... you know, waning days, he, you know, he did, he thought he did a good job. He really wanted Texas wines in more states.
Doug Shafer:
Dis- dis- Distributed, yeah distributed around. Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, you know, where people could say, "Golly they- they are doing something in Texas."
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
You know, and, but, that's where I said, "You know, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna- I'm gonna go out of state and if- and I lowered my prices to do it. I did everything, you know, to do this and on the back of my label I say you know, I say you know, McPherson Cellars is honor of my Dad, it- anyway, so.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I saw that, that's really sweet touch, man. Thank- that's great.
Kim McPherson:
We uh, I'd love to see Texas doing more out of state. I mean, if we had just 10 varieties up here that we could just concentrate on and, and you know, and do that I think, I think we would get some notoriety but ... I may not be able to see that.
Doug Shafer:
You're making the first steps doing it so, you know, good for you. So cool. Anything new comin' down the pike?
Kim McPherson:
As far as ...
Doug Shafer:
New projects, new wines.
Kim McPherson:
Well, every year we do a new wine.
Doug Shafer:
Oh really?
Kim McPherson:
Well, I do, you know, maybe a hundred cases, maybe two hundred cases, always get my- I have a great assistant winemaker, he's from California and uh, he's from Temecula, and my little brother said, "You gotta hire this guy because he went out here to go to school at Texas Tech."
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And his name is Spencer and so every year I throw a curve in there. And last year, you know, I made a natural wine.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. You made a natural wine, good for you. I am gonna come see you, I want to try this.
Kim McPherson:
Well, we made it for a restaurant in Washington D.C. called The Queen's English.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And they ... when I was there they said can you make a natural wine? I said, "Can you make a shoe stink?" You know.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Kim McPherson:
So, we took Viognier. And we made a natural wine and they just ... they fell in love with it. They loved it, it's called The Queen.
Doug Shafer:
I love it. Good for you.
Kim McPherson:
And now I'll probably have to do like five tons of that because everybody loved it around here but I said, No, it's not ... only did 80 cases for this restaurant.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, see what happens? Good for you. So, hey, I gotta ask you something, before I forget, where do people find your wines? 'Cause you're only in a handful of states out of Texas so, do you guys have a good website? So, how can they do it?
Kim McPherson:
We have a great website. It- my- my daughter Cassandra is in charge of the website.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. What's the ...
Kim McPherson:
And I mean it is like pretty nice.
Doug Shafer:
What's the, what's the, what is it? McPherson?
Kim McPherson:
McPhersoncellars.com
Doug Shafer:
So it's M-C-P-H-E-R-S-O-N.
Kim McPherson:
P-H-E-R-S-O-N.
Doug Shafer:
Dot com. So folks who want to try some of these great wines from Texas check it out. And ...
Kim McPherson:
Yes, you can get, you can get, you can get everything we've got just about.
Doug Shafer:
And, I'm gonna take a minute here, my friend, I found a quote ...
Kim McPherson:
Uh-oh.
Doug Shafer:
Apparently, this is a quote from you, if it's not, please correct me but here's the quote. I have no idea where it came from but I'm going to read it. People need to hear this. This would be your advice to a young winemaker. "You've got to be a motorboat. You can't be an ocean liner. You've gotta be able to turn the corner and speed around the rocks. You've got to be able to think quick and you have to be objective about the wine you're making. Don't fall in love with the stuff. If it's not good when you put it in the barrel, chances are it's not gonna get any better." (Amen to that by the way). "You can't put lipstick on a pig. Take it while it's young and hot and do something else with it before it's too late. You've got to be creative about what to do with what you have."
Kim McPherson:
That sounds, real- that's- that's what I said.
Doug Shafer:
That sounds like you buddy. That sounds like you.
Kim McPherson:
I had a- I had a quote in the Dallas Morning News, I didn't think they'd print it but it came from the movie Chinatown.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Kim McPherson:
And I just put "Old winemakers, buildings, and whores all gain respect with time and age."
Doug Shafer:
(laughing) Oh, and I think on that one we're gonna wrap this thing up. Mr. McPherson, my friend Kim ...
Kim McPherson:
Doug, thank you so much, I hope- I hope everything's good with you. I'm gonna come out there and see you.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
You made my grower's day that day, called you up to say I know- I know Doug, I don't know if he's there and you said, "Get your ass over here now," and I said, "Come on Andy, you're gonna go to Shafer".
Doug Shafer:
(laughing) Anytime and uh, I'm gonna come see you as soon as I can and it's been so ...
Kim McPherson:
Please, buddy. I gotta a place to stay.
Doug Shafer:
Thank you.
Kim McPherson:
I gotta B&B. I gotta an Air BNB.
Doug Shafer:
There you go, it's been so good to reconnect with you, man, it's been too many years so it's so good to ... so let's stay in touch, please, please?
Kim McPherson:
Oh, oh yeah.
Doug Shafer:
All right buddy, you take care.
Kim McPherson:
All right, thanks Doug.
Doug Shafer:
Be good.
Kim McPherson:
Thanks for having me on your show and I really appreciate it.
Doug Shafer:
All right buddy, be good, love yeah. See ya.
Kim McPherson:
You too, love ya, bye-bye.
Doug Shafer:
Bye-bye.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
All right. Uh, hey, everybody. Doug Shafer back for another episode of The Taste. Um, I've got a guest in here today. Well, he's not in here, but he's on the phone, Mark Beringer. Been wanting to have Mark on for a long time. He's been in business a long time. And, uh, we have a lot of common friends, growing around the Valley, but we've never had the chance to really spend some time together. So, I'm just about, today. I wanna hear this guy's story. Welcome, Mark. How you doing?
Mark Beringer:
I'm doing good, Doug. Thank you for having me on. Um, you know, it's crazy times right now. So, this gives us at least a little sense of normalcy, right?
Doug Shafer:
It is. It is. In fact, uh, once I started doing these things on the phone, I, I never used to give the date we're recording, but I'm doing it now, just for kind of posterity. We're at April 28th, 2020. We've been sheltered in place for it... What? F-... A good five weeks now, I think. And we've got another four or five to go. Sounds like, in California. But, um, how are you holding up? How's the family? What do you... What are you doing? Are you at home? You run around? What's the deal?
Mark Beringer:
Well, you know, um, I've been working, 'cause, uh, we are part of the, uh, so-called essentials in Napa County.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
And, uh, need to keep our wineries running. So, uh, we're, we're keeping things going. Uh, keep wines topped up, doing our rackings, trying to get stuff for the bottle. Um, but then, yeah, it... when it comes to going home, we're just like everybody else. Doing the shelter in place, and trying to keep our heads low, and, and be as safe as possible. Being that we are going to work, we're even more concerned about, you know, eh, not bringing something back to work, or bringing something home that shouldn't be there.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right. We, we got the same thing going. It's, it's, it's pretty strange, because, eh, with the wine business-
Mark Beringer:
Hmm.
Doug Shafer:
... because we're allowed to keep vineyard operations going. That's going on full tilt here, and throughout the Valley, and cellar operations. We're racking wine and bottling and, um, you know, carefully. And, eh, with all the distancing we have to do, and, and, uh, masks, and all that.
Doug Shafer:
But, um, the business end is, um, everyone's working from home. And naturally, our... all the, uh, hospitality venues are... and wineries are shut down until things open up again. So it's a, it's kind of a, it's a half on half off, but I'm with you. Eh, but, uh, not much traffic on the road, that's for sure.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, (laughs), it's gotta be the best traffic I've seen in a long time.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
But, uh, I think, probably, you know, like you, uh, this is my travel season too.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
So, um, I'm accustomed to being... living out of a suitcase, uh, at least a week or two, a month, this time of year. So, uh, adjusting to that, and being home, (laughs), oh, it's a... has been a different perspective for me.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I've, I've got the same thing. My Annette's like, "Aren't you suppo-... You know, usually, you're gone. What are you doing here?" (laughs). In fact-
Mark Beringer:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
... I looked at my cale-, I looked at my calendar, I'm supposed to be on a trip to Korea and Singapore, right now. But, obviously, that's not, not happening. Um-
Mark Beringer:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
But anyway, listen, I've, I've had a bunch of people on there... this podcast, through the last year or two, with family stories in Napa, which is great. And a lot of them go way back. But I think you're the winner, man. Because-
Mark Beringer:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
... from what we can tell your story goes back, uh, l-like 150 years, to '1869? Is that about right?
Mark Beringer:
That sounds about right. I believe, uh, Jacob arrived... Jacob Beringer, my great-great-grandfather arrived, uh, out here in around 1868, 1869, um, and started working, um, for Charles Krug, um, back in those days.
Doug Shafer:
Eh, and so, and he emigrated from... It was Germany?
Mark Beringer:
Yeah. So, he, uh, immigrated from a little town called Mainz.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
... uh, in the Rhine River region of Germany. Um, he actually was the second to arrive. His older brother, Frederick, had arrived in the United States first.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Um, he had come into the New York area and established a pretty decent business, uh, in the malting, uh, area.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Um, you know, one... two things Germans know is beer and wine.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
So, uh, they, they were in the beer, uh, primarily, at that time. Jacob was six years younger, and had stayed behind, in Germany, 'cause he was an accomplished winemaker there. He made wine in Berlin, as well as in Mainz, as well ... we have very little, um... You know, we don't have really good history back beyond their immigration.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Um, thanks to a couple of world wars that disrupted record keeping, and things like that, in that region. Um, we don't have a real good history back there.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. And, uh, so, he d-, he started out in New York, but ended up, uh... He and his brother Frederick both ended up out here working with Charles Krug, that's what you were saying?
Mark Beringer:
Well, Jacob did.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, Frederick stayed behind in New York. Jacob, k-, you know, after he helped his brother for a bit in New York, he got a little itchy and wanted Jacob back to wine making. And so, uh, you know, to put this into a timing perspective of each, you know, we took a ride, or one of the first rides on the transcontinental railroad.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, cool.
Mark Beringer:
Um, it had just been completed. This is, you know, post, uh, civil war, uh, getting resolved. And, uh, he, he made his way out, and, yeah, gained employment with Charles himself-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
... and became his cellar master. And he did that for about a half a decade, maybe about five, six years-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mark Beringer:
... until he could save up enough money, and was able, with Charles' help, to buy the neighboring property. Um, what is now Beringer Brothers to this day.
Doug Shafer:
That was across the street, right? The... I don't know if that was the-
Mark Beringer:
Y-yeah, it's... Oh, it's, yeah, next door to and across the street. So-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
... we have, we're adjacent to Krug, they're on, on the, uh, south side. And then we cross over Highway 29, of course, we're the Rhine House-
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Mark Beringer:
... and the historical winery. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's right, your, your corporate offices are right... Yeah, you're right next door to Charles Krug on the s-, on the, uh, east side of the Highway 29.
Mark Beringer:
M-... Right, right.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
So that the tree tunnel, the historical tunnel of elms that runs on the Highway 29 actually divides the property.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
So, the, uh... Uh, most people, probably like myself, we think of Beringer, when we drive by, we don't look at the corporate offices, you know, um, big, big, you know, winery on the east side. We look on the right side, or the west side to the Rhine House, and it's like, "Hey, there's Beringer." Um, so the history of that house, was that... is that something those guys built, or was it there?
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, so that's kinda where the brothers came together. Um, after Jacob had purchased the piece of property, he really didn't have the means to do anything with it. And Frederick had quite a bit of wealth. Um, he had inherited the family fortune that was brought from Germany, as well, 'cause he was the eldest son.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
And, uh, had made even more of fortune, um, with the businesses he'd been doing. So he took a ride out on the train as well, and, and saw the property, and fell in love with it. And, uh, they decided to partner up, and that's how Beringer Brothers was created. But, you know, Frederick didn't stay at that time. He actually went back to the East coast, and he set up shop to distribute and sell the wine. He was a businessman, and he had opened up a couple of wine shops. And back then, of course, things were transferred in cask, and bottles were brought into shops and filled up that way. We didn't bottle wine back in those days.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that.
Mark Beringer:
Uh-
Doug Shafer:
So, they shipped it in bulk-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... basically, and it's casks, or barrels, or some type of container in bulk?
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, the barrels, the barrels that we use today, the small 225 liter casks were actually shipping vessels-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
... back in those days.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Mark Beringer:
It wasn't until much, much later that people discovered that the wines tasted better at basement. Some time, uh, um, majority of the casks we use were large oval, um, casks, made even out of things like redwood-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
... 'cause that's what was available. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
You know, I didn't know that. So, your... our 60 gallon, 225 liter barrels that we all have and all use for aging our wines, their original purpose was for shipping bulk wine to other parts of the country?
Mark Beringer:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
Right. And, uh, and even brandy, back in the days, with cognac, the, the w-, the way they get wine up to areas that were, maybe long journeys, the wine itself was not very stable, that's where cognac really became a thing. Was, uh, being able to make a concentrated product that would last, and ship it in, in these barrels that would last a long time.
Doug Shafer:
Again, necessity is the mother, (laughs).
Mark Beringer:
It really.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
It really is.
Doug Shafer:
So, these guys... Any idea what these guys were making? What, what type of grapes they were growing, or what types of wines, varietal-wise?
Mark Beringer:
Yeah. I mean, you gotta figure that they were German, so they had a lot of German varieties they brought over. But, you know, the main settlers of this Valley were, were two primary groups. And the Germans, of course, being one, like us, and Schram, and Jacob Schram, Schramsberg.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mark Beringer:
Uh, Hans, Hans Kornell. You know, there's a lot of Germanic names running around. But the other side was a lot of Italians.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Um, there was a lo-... Uh, it was kind of two communities at that time. And so, we saw a lot of Italian varieties. Um, Barbera, Nebbiolo, things like that, were planted in this area. Much of that, of course, is gone now, but we were growing a lot of, you know, German whites, like Riesling-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mark Beringer:
... and things like that. Um, and you know, of course everything was blend. So, we didn't do varietal bottling in those days. Um, everything was kind of these blends that they put together, and we called it Chablis, till we couldn't call it that anymore.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
Or Burgundy, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Burgundy, yeah, yeah.
Mark Beringer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
I remember burgundy.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I was drinking Burgundy-
Mark Beringer:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
... in college. A gallon-
Mark Beringer:
Some Hardy Burgundy?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, a Hardy Burgundy-
Mark Beringer:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
... in a bota bag on the... off the Tahoe. Um-
Mark Beringer:
You bet.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I always wondered why I had a headache. I thought it's 'cause I drank too much. I'm not... Maybe I just didn't hydrate enough. I can't remember, but that was tough.
Mark Beringer:
All the sugar within it, probably. Yeah?
Doug Shafer:
Yes, probably the sugar, (laughing). So, so these guys, they were... The Beringer was pretty successful at that time. This is the late 1800s, early 1900s, they were cranking, weren't they? Locally?
Mark Beringer:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and, and to kind of finish that thought, you know, the question was kind of the, the Rhine House, and how it came to be.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
Um, that was actually Frederick's home. So, after they had gotten this business established, it, it only took about six or seven years before Frederick got the edge to come out too. So, he finally moved out with his family and, uh, wanted to build a home on the property. So, the original home on the property... I think you've been on the property. The-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mark Beringer:
Um, there's the Hudson House, which is the culinary center, where we do a lot of our, you know, sit down m-meals.
Doug Shafer:
Sit... Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
We have a, a sit-in kitchen in there. Um, it was originally Madeline Common’s Kitchen-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mark Beringer:
... um, when we first built it, in the '80s.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Um, but that was the original home on the property. The irony of it is, it used to sit right where the Rhine House is today.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs), oh, no. 'Cause I've been in there. I've had a couple of dinners, really nice dinners in there, in the Hudson House.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, so, is... So, they moved it, it sounds like?
Mark Beringer:
They moved it.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
They picked it up, and they rolled it down the hill on some logs and, uh, and replaced it where it sits today, so that Frederick could build his grand mansion in its spot. 'Cause that was the ideal home site on the property.
Doug Shafer:
So, big brother, he's got the family fortune, he gets to put his house where he wants it. That's how it sounds-
Mark Beringer:
Yup.
Doug Shafer:
... it sounds like. Okay, I get it.
Mark Beringer:
But younger brother got a gravity flow winery out of the deal, so, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah.
Mark Beringer:
... it was a pretty good trade.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, uh, tell me about that, 'cause I read somewhere, first gravity flow winery, right? Or that's where-
Mark Beringer:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
... they all were then. I c-... I'm j-... What was the... What's the story, b-backstory on that one?
Mark Beringer:
Well, you know, the majority of the wineries, um, that were here prior were built out in the middle of the Valley, where they could find flat space. And a lot of the movement of wine revolved around, um, pumping with hand pumps, or things like that. But because of their, um, their knowledge from some facilities in Germany, they ha-had the idea to build into the hillside. To basically carve out a three-story structure with a road that went around the back, where they can bring horse drawn carriages up there. Bring the fruit to the top floor-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
... and crush it. And it would just flow naturally down to the second floor. And that second floor, um, is an amazing piece of engineering. It's actually tongue and groove, and just doweled together. There's not a nail in it.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Mark Beringer:
I-... And it allowed it to swell just like a barrel does when it gets moisture on it, and it would seal itself. It was completely watertight. It could hold several inches of water or wine if they were spilled-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mark Beringer:
... um, without draining into the third or the bottom floor, or the first floor. And it held an enormous amount of weight, because, you know, we talk about grapes in a measure of tons, right?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
We bring in such amount of tons, and then we put it into a fermentation tank. So, you can imagine the weight of that tank with five, six tons of grapes in it being up on this floor above, it had to be enormous, like, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Mark Beringer:
... engineering.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah. That's crazy. And so, that was... So, the second floor, or the f-... Well, the first floor down, they crushed on the top. Took the wine down the next floor, which is where they fermented, big tanks.
Mark Beringer:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
You know, big oak, oak tanks. And then the floor below was... Was it for aging, or bottling?
Mark Beringer:
Yes, for aging.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Um, it was, um, there's aging casks down there. And then, eventually, they dug caves. And we are known as having the very first caves dug in Napa Valley. And they were done by hand. There was no machinery to do this at the time. And since there was no refrigeration, or, you know, means of s-, even electricity, we used steam power in those days. The only way to get temperature control was to go underground.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man. And this is, this, like in the early 1900s, right?
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, the, the winery was built... The gravity flow winery was finished in 1877.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
And it took six years more to hand-dig the caves. It was a group of Chinese laborers who actually were, um, resettled here because of the transcontinental railroad. They're the ones who dug the caves in the tunnels and blew the rock away to build the Sierra portion of the transcontinental railroad.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs) This is fascinating. I love doing this. I find out so much stuff. So, it's... I wonder, 'cause I had heard that the ca-... I knew the caves were... I'd heard they were the first caves. I had heard there was Chinese labor. I'm thinking of some... You know, I never thought about where they come from. Did they... They were already here, and they did the railroad. That's amazing.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, they'd, they had finished their work and, uh, you know, were looking for things to do. And many were going... uh, staying in the Sierras for gold.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
You know, that was during the gold rush. And most people stepping off the transcontinental railroad, that's what they were in search of.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mark Beringer:
But there was many looking for other types of work. And there was actually a small Chinatown in, in St. Helena, off Pope Street. That area was actually a small Chinese settlement.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs), like, like, all right, that's like six new things I've learned with you today.
Mark Beringer:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
This is great. Um, I want this, this whole virus thing to go away so we can get together and have a beer. And I wanna hear more.
Mark Beringer:
Oh, I know.
Doug Shafer:
I wanna hear more.
Mark Beringer:
I know it.
Doug Shafer:
Um-
Mark Beringer:
This is much more fun over a cocktail.
Doug Shafer:
Uh, yeah.
Mark Beringer:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
But it's pretty cool. I'm... I'll t-... I'm gonna stop the tape and I'll go get a shot of tequila.
Mark Beringer:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Anyway, um, it's too early in the day. But, um-
Mark Beringer:
Hmm.
Doug Shafer:
... all right, so. So, a very successful winery doing well. Any idea how large they were? How mu-, how much they were making? I'm just kinda curious about that.
Mark Beringer:
You know, it, it was not a small operation. Um, for the time, you would consider it probably enormous.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Mark Beringer:
Um, we would consider it about a medium sized winery probably in our nomenclature today. So, they say the first vintage was roughly 50,000 cases equivalent.
Doug Shafer:
That's, that's a big, that's a big number. That's a-
Mark Beringer:
That's a pretty good production.
Doug Shafer:
That's a, that's a... Yeah, that's, that's serious stuff. All right. So, they're cranking along, super successful and, uh, prohibition came. But they both were gone by the time prohibition came, right? Is that how that worked out?
Mark Beringer:
Yeah. I mean, uh-
Doug Shafer:
For Jacob and Frederick.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, they were both gone by then. Um, and the winery had passed... Well, at least the operations of the winery had passed to Jacob's son, uh, Jacob Junior.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Mark Beringer:
And he was the winemaker from 1911, up until, um, the end of prohibition, around 1935.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. So, it was still in the family.
Mark Beringer:
And-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, and we were still operating. We were, we were licensed to produce, uh, wine for the church, and also brandy, for medicinal purposes. And, uh, I always liked to kid that there was a lot of sick and religious people during prohibition.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs), I've hear-... I have heard that story, about there being a, (laughing)... The, the, uh, the... You had to get a prescription from your doctor, right? For Brandy? I think that's how it went. So-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, I don't think it was that hard. (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Well, that's, that's... So, that's a pretty rare story, a winery stayed open during Prohibition. That was... There weren't many that did. So, um, that was good fortune for you guys, for sure.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, I heard there was only six in the area, that stayed open. I don't know them all. I know BV was another one-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mark Beringer:
... which is in our group with Treasury.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
Um, they've been around since 1900. And so, they also survived Prohibition. But, you know, others like Charles Krug, that had been here much longer than us, uh, because my, my great-great-grandfather worked there, they actually ceased operation. It wasn't reopened until many years later.
Doug Shafer:
That's right. 'Cause, yeah, Marc Mondavi was in here, we'd had that chat. Um-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, they got through prohibition. So, Prohibition is lifted in 1933. Jacob... It's Jacob Junior, is still the winemaker-
Mark Beringer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... through '35. And what happens when Prohibition's over? They just k-... They kept making Sacramental wine, or they shift gears and go for it?
Mark Beringer:
Well, luckily, you know, we were really well positioned to get back to business, because we actually had your typical wine grape varieties in the ground.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mark Beringer:
Um, everybody else had moved on to other things, either table grapes, or other types of crops, stone fruits, hops. There was all kinds of things being grown around here. Um, a lot of livestock. And so, we kind of had an advantage in that sense, 'cause we all know how long it takes to grow a grapevine.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mark Beringer:
And it takes five to six years to get back into production. So, they had that little bit of advantage over, um, the competitors. They had also been producing during Prohibition, this very unique, uh, brick. I don't know if you heard about this? We had a dehydration, facility in St. Helena. And we would be hydrate grapes and press them into bricks.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Mark Beringer:
And then those would be sent out with a package of yeast and some instructions on ho-, what to do with it.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
Um, because-
Doug Shafer:
For-
Mark Beringer:
... there was a-
Doug Shafer:
For, for, for homemade wine? This is during-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Okay.
Mark Beringer:
'Cause you, uh, you had, uh, an exemption in the law that you could produce a certain amount of alcohol for your own consumption. So, that business had continued even after Prohibition.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. How soon-
Mark Beringer:
Uh, and then people would get that.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that continued. 'Cause I knew it was happening during, so the home wine makers, they kept doing it? It's-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, there was still a bit of that business continuing on-
Doug Shafer:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Mark Beringer:
... 'cause people got used to making their own home brew-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
... until things got rolling again.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
And so, when we got back to business, there was, uh, a new gentleman that came in. Um, he was winemaker and general manager of the facility. And, uh, it was a f-, kind of unique, um, that w-we hired somebody whose name ended in the last letter of I, you know? It's not a very Germanic name, but Fred Abruzzini-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
... um, was the, the gentleman who ran the winery from the post Prohibition days.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. 'Cause-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, and he was-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And, and that family-
Mark Beringer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... I d-, I know that name. That family is still around the Valley, big time, the Abruzzinis.
Mark Beringer:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, and as I was talking about earlier, you know, the Germans and the Italians, they kind of kept to themselves. But, you know, this time, people are starting to grow. Almost all the women in my family were, were Italian women, although I carry a German name, you know?
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
But Fred Abruzzini was an absolute entrepreneur, visionary, whatever you wanna call him. He, he had the idea of, you know, opening the doors up and inviting people in. And it wa-, it was something that really hadn't been done before. There were cellar doors, or tasting rooms around where people could try the wines. But you really couldn't go back into the, you know, operations of a winery, back in those days.
Mark Beringer:
And there probably wasn't much to see, anyway. But, uh, he had these programs he set up to bring people up from the city and tour, not just Beringer, but Napa Valley, you know? And, and any of the wineries that were here, and even over to Sonoma. And they would do these bus tours, or they bring people up on the train. And then load them on the trucks and bring them to the winery. And, and he created this kind of, I call it the Disneyland-for-adult effect-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
... what the Napa Valley has become.
Doug Shafer:
I never knew that. So, he was the one that got that going. The whole hospi-... You know, what is today's hospitality business in this Valley-
Mark Beringer:
Hmm.
Doug Shafer:
... in the wine industry.
Mark Beringer:
Exactly.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Mark Beringer:
So, we were the first winery to offer public tours and tastings-
Doug Shafer:
Well-
Mark Beringer:
... in 1934, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs). Again, they just keep... The hits keep coming today, Mark.
Mark Beringer:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Um, but, so he was there, and then another guy started working there. Some guy named Roy Raymond, right?
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, Little Roy.
Doug Shafer:
Uh, what's his... Roy, I remember Roy. Roy Senior. What, um... Where... What was his story? Where did he come from? 'Cause he wasn't-
Mark Beringer:
So-
Doug Shafer:
... Italian or German, was he? So-
Mark Beringer:
No, uh-
Doug Shafer:
... he was an outlier.
Mark Beringer:
He was.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
I, I c-... I don't know what his true background was, if he's Irish, or... But, uh, you know, Roy was just, yeah, he was a man's man. I mean, he had these big biceps and triceps. I mean, he was like a huge guy, and very intimidating, in a sense. But he was the winemaker, um, for Beringer, from 1956, until 1971.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, wow.
Mark Beringer:
Um, 19, 1971 being the year that we sold it, of course.
Doug Shafer:
Was he... So-
Mark Beringer:
Um-
Doug Shafer:
Great. Was he... So, he was winemaker after Fred? Or in t-
Mark Beringer:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah. So, he would have been number four in the chain.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
And, uh, he married into the family. He, uh, took a liking to my grandfather's sister, Martha Jane Beringer, and they married. So, uh, um, that made Roy family. And all of his kids and descendants, like Walter... And I'm sure you know Walter?
Doug Shafer:
Wal-... Yeah, Wal-
Mark Beringer:
Eh, a-
Doug Shafer:
Uh, and Roy Junior.
Mark Beringer:
And Roy Junior, mm-hmm (affirmative). They're, uh, all descendants of Jacob Beringer as well. They're all my cousins.
Doug Shafer:
So, okay. So, I mean, I was trying to figure this out last night. So, R-Roy and Walt, who've retired-
Mark Beringer:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
... and must be in their 70s. Great guys, great winemakers. They are your-
Mark Beringer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... cousins or uncles?
Mark Beringer:
So, yeah, Walter and Roy are my dad's first cousins.
Mark Beringer:
And, you know, and they really gave me my, my break in the business side. Um, I got into this very young, you know, growing up here. Um, we ha-... We didn't own the winery anymore 'cause we sold it in 1971.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, so-
Mark Beringer:
So, uh-
Doug Shafer:
I'm gonna interrupt you. Sorry, man. So, yeah, so the winery-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, no worries.
Doug Shafer:
So, Roy was winemaker till '70, '71, and then the... then the family sold it to Nestle?
Mark Beringer:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Is that, is that-
Mark Beringer:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. And-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, a little Swiss chocolate company.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. What was... Any... Um, before we go on, I'm just kind of curious about what that was like. 'Cause that, that had to be big for the family. I mean, you were just bor-... You were born in... When were you born?
Mark Beringer:
Oh, '67.
Doug Shafer:
So, you were like-
Mark Beringer:
So, I was just a few years old.
Doug Shafer:
You were just, you were two years, you were just a little baby. Um-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, you don't remember that, obviously, but any stories about that whole thing? What that was like for the family?
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, I mean, I was so young-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
... I don't remember a lot of it. But we did retain ownership of a s-, a couple of the houses on the property, past the sale of the winery.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Um, not the Rhine House, but the Hudson House and the other North House on the property, we, we, we kept, for my grandparents lived there.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, neat.
Mark Beringer:
So, I do have a little bit of memories of being on the property as a kid.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mark Beringer:
But for the most part, you know, we didn't have a lot of presence there after I, I became an adult.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. So-
Mark Beringer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
So, you're growing up in St. Helena, um, and your f-, your parents ran the wine shop, but what else did they... Fred and Kathy Beringer, 'cause I n-, I remember those guys.
Mark Beringer:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
And, uh-
Mark Beringer:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
... what were they doing? Um, and how did those two meet?
Mark Beringer:
So, my parents met in high school-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
... here in St. Helena.
Doug Shafer:
All right.
Mark Beringer:
Um, they were high school sweethearts, and, um, married young. And, you know, raised a family here in St. Helena. Uh, I have one older sister and, um, she, uh, still works and lives in, uh, in, in the Valley here, in St. Helena. So, um, you know, our whole family has been raised here for five generations.
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, (laughs), so you grew up in St.... Five generations? So, you were a St. Helena kid, high school, the whole thing? What'd you, what'd you do in high school?
Mark Beringer:
Uh, we shouldn't really talk about that-
Doug Shafer:
Okay, (laughs).
Mark Beringer:
... stuff, hmm.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, (laughs). All right, that's for our next gue-... All right, never mind.
Mark Beringer:
No.
Doug Shafer:
Never mind.
Mark Beringer:
Actually-
Doug Shafer:
Sorry, brother.
Mark Beringer:
There's the... Actually, there's a, a huge synergy between, um, my past through high school and your winemaker’s. Um, that's why Elias and I have always been, uh, pretty close, because we took very similar paths. We were both musicians.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, p-
Mark Beringer:
Um-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
... we both had-
Doug Shafer:
Very well.
Mark Beringer:
We p-, we both played the trumpet, and we both played in the jazz band. We were different ages. Elias is a few years older than I am.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
But, uh, you know, and both ended up going to winemaking school, different schools. But ended up, you know, graduating, and coming back to the Valley, and working our whole careers, essentially, in the Napa Valley, where we grew up. So, um, that's not a common story, ironically, with most wine makers around this Valley.
Doug Shafer:
No. So, you guys... I know he played trumpet and he got a scholarship to University of Nevada, Reno-
Mark Beringer:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
... on that scholarship. That's how he got to college, and then transferred to Davis. And you played trumpet too, and that was, uh, the t-... I... So, y-you were a few years behind him in high school. I was there for a year and a half, and he was, uh, four or five years behind me. He said he remembers to watch me play basketball. He was like in eighth grade. And I remember-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I remember there was always the jazz band at basketball games with... Uh, who was the teacher? Uh, the music teacher at-
Mark Beringer:
That was Bob Graph.
Doug Shafer:
Bob Graph. And, you know-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... we was the St. Helena's Saints, so, obviously, the theme song is, you know, When the Saints Come Marching In, right? And the jazz-
Mark Beringer:
That's right. I had it committed to memory, (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Oh my God, if I heard that song one too many times, and that jam would drive me crazy.
Mark Beringer:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
But, uh-
Mark Beringer:
Good stuff.
Doug Shafer:
... how funny. So, you and and Elias were both trumpet players, how f-, how neat. Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
All right, I got it. And then, um, so your f-... Uh, there's so much going on here. Um-
Mark Beringer:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
So, summertimes were you, uh, were you working at... W-were you working with your folks, or at the wineries? What were you doing in the summer, during high school?
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, I mean, it... to keep me out of trouble, I think my dad tried to keep me working. So-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
... he, uh, he started me working in the wine shop when I was 12. I'd run the register, and stock shelves, and do whatever needed to be done, break down boxes.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
Um, eventually, I, I got a driver's license and realized I wanted to escape that, you know, envelope of control.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
And, uh, I took a job at Beringer, ironically enough. Um, at the age of 16, I was a stock clerk in the Rhine House.
Doug Shafer:
Really?
Mark Beringer:
Um-
Doug Shafer:
So, now-
Mark Beringer:
... yeah.
Doug Shafer:
The... How'd you get... Now, how'd you get that job? I mean, did they know you were like a Beringer-Beringer, and all that stuff, or was that, was... Okay, was it kinda-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, I mean, there was a gentleman working there. Um, I don't know if you remember the old Keller's market?
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Mark Beringer:
Um, which was right across the street from my dad's shop, but we knew everybody kind of over there. And they used to deliver groceries to my grandmother, and stuff. And, um, you know, I got to be really good friends with Jim Barfield-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
... um, who was, he ran the grocery for many years. And he ended up becoming a manager of the Rhine House, later on.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
And, uh, he ended up hiring me. And, uh, it was a great time. I still... And the same kind of work. I was stocking shelves, and carrying cases out the cars. And people would find out, you know, what was my last name, and they tried to fix me up with their daughters. But, uh-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
... I'm like, "I don't own the place. I'm just working here." (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
That's pretty funny. So, those are high school summers.
Mark Beringer:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
So, so was... Were you thinking about wine, and being a winemaker, or... You know, in high school, and I wasn't, but, uh, lemme see your background.
Mark Beringer:
Uh, no. I, I thought I w-, I was going the musician route.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
And I was, like Elias, I had a scholarship opportunity, um, not to Nevada, but, um... Which was the natural connection, I guess. St. Helena in Nevada had some sort of connection, but I was trying for Cal State, Northridge-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
... um, for a full scholarship down there. And I kinda got... I got freaked out. I mean, you know, I went and did my auditions. And I was visiting the campus and realized that I was making this huge lifestyle decision to become a musician living in LA-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
... playing the trumpet.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
You know? So, I kind of balked at it and said, "You know, I don't know if I wanna do this." And my parents were like, "Well, if you're not coming here on a scholarship, you're coming home." So, I came back and just enrolled in St. Rosa Junior College, to figure out what the heck I was gonna do next. And I got a job working with Raymond. I went over there and, uh, Walter hired me, and put me on the bottling line.
Doug Shafer:
Uh, so this is-
Mark Beringer:
Uh, I bottled every summer.
Doug Shafer:
I'm with you. So, okay. And, uh, 'cause I interrupted you earlier, so I got a... For our folks out there, I know the history, but, um, when Beringer sold, at the time-
Mark Beringer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... um, Roy Raymond Senior was the winemaker guy, and his sons were Walt, and Ray... and-
Mark Beringer:
And Roy Junior.
Doug Shafer:
Ro-Roy Junior and Walt were his sons.
Mark Beringer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And they were, and they were working with their dad, at Beringers, I think. And then, um-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, they were.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. So, when they sold in '71, what people didn't... I... The gap in the story is Roy and Walter, what did they do after they sold Beringer?
Mark Beringer:
So, yeah, W-... So, Roy, w-, being the winemaker-
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Mark Beringer:
... he also trained Walter. Walter was a winemaker as well, and Roy was more of a viticulturist.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Mark Beringer:
So, it was a really good family team.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Mark Beringer:
Um, it's the way most families operated in those days, in a business. So what happened is, they decided to start their own winery. And in 1974, they opened Raymond Winery, over on Zinfandel Lane.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. So, the two brothers started their own w-winery called Raymond, Raymond Winery?
Mark Beringer:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. Okay. And that's-
Mark Beringer:
With their dad, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
Okay with-
Mark Beringer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
That's right, 'cause Roy Senior was with him. Okay, I remember that.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, he lived on the property. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I know, I remember the house. Yep. I... 'Cause I remember-
Mark Beringer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
Uh, I remembered going over to... Oh, when I was starting out, I needed something. Um, I called them up. S-... I need s-some help with some forklift, or something. Someone said, "Go see..." What they could... I think I drove right by your... uh, Roy Senior's house. He was out there in his garden, or something like that. But-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, he's usually right on a ride-along mower, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Just great family. Um, very welcoming, just like everybody, when we first got... when the Shafer showed up. Everybody was so friendly and helpful. It's, um... And still to this day, it's a nice, it's a nice place. All right. So, I'm-
Mark Beringer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... I'm interrupting too much. So, you got a job-
Mark Beringer:
No worries.
Doug Shafer:
You got a job working with your uncles at Raymond. So, what'd you-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs), what'd they have you doing? I wanna hear this.
Mark Beringer:
So, well, the, (laughing), the first thing they did is put me on a bottling line.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
And, uh, we're not talking of the modern ones of today, I'm talking the old model block stick and pick labeler that would probably, you know, tear my arm off today.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
But, uh, we... You know, I learned the nuts and bolts of that stuff, and eventually graduated to being forklift driver. And I, I drove lift and, and managed bottling operations all summer, every summer, while I was going to school.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Um, and then I would go back to school during, yeah, after the fall, after harvest kinda got wrong. But, uh, I got... You know, I was going to Santa Rosa, and, uh, I was just taking basic education stuff, trying to figure out what the heck I was gonna do. I was looking at engineering, and some other things. And then, um, I took a couple classes as electives, in viticulture, just for the heck of it.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
And Rich, Rich Thomas was the instructor over there, at the time. Many people know-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
... uh, he wa-, he was quite a legend, um, on the other side of the Hill, um, in viticulture. And so, I took a few of his classes, and I realized it wasn't just in my blood, it really kinda hooked me.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Mark Beringer:
Uh, that it was something I was truly interested in and passionate about. And I did that for a couple years. And then realized, "Uh, maybe this farming thing isn't what I wanna do. I wanna get more into the science, in the winemaking perspective."
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
So, I, I talked to some people, and talked to Davis, talked to Fresno, and tried to set myself up to transfer to one of those schools, and ended up selecting Fresno. Because of the hands-on perspective of it.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
You know, both great schools, both great programs. Just one is maybe a little more-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, f-
Mark Beringer:
... uh, theory, scientifical, one's a little more hands-on, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Right, right. Uh, which was, which was, which wa-
Mark Beringer:
I think we go back and forth on it all day, right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Which was Fresno state. Listen, I was... I did the Davis thing. And, and, you know, uh, to tell you the truth, um, the Fresno State program, from what I've learned from, from folks like you, who've been through that, you're much better preparation, hands on. You know, until you do it, you physically do it and, you know, you know, hook up a hose to a tank, you know, how'd he learn how to do that in the classroom? So...
Mark Beringer:
Yeah. And I was doing it already, 'cause I was working in a winery. So, I kinda looked at those... at that part of it and said, "Well, this is the way wine's made, so I wanna get m-more involved in the hands-on department."
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Mark Beringer:
Um, 'cause I never min-, I never minded getting dirty. I mean, I was running a lees filter on the weekend, so, um, that's most miserable job in the winery. Shoveling D and leas together, pushing it through a filter. So, I knew it was dirty work, (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Lees filters.
Mark Beringer:
Hmm.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, bad memories. Um-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And we can... We won't, we won't describe what that's like. It's just, it's-
Mark Beringer:
No.
Doug Shafer:
It's a, it's a necessary job. It's a, it's a mucky job. You get covered with just kind of like lees-y, slimy, yeasty sweet or, you know, sticky stuff. It's, it's fine. It's no big deal, but it's just kind of like, it's just like boring.
Mark Beringer:
It was the job, like, for the interns, (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
It's boring, it's, it's bori-, it's boring... And it's boring and sloppy, but someone's gotta do it. Um-
Mark Beringer:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
So, you were at Fresno State, and, uh, I found out something I didn't know about. Who was... You had a... Who was your roommate at Fresno State, or classmate?
Mark Beringer:
Well, I had some of, from this area.
Doug Shafer:
Well, you had a few of them, sure. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, I mean, uh, when I moved down there, I moved into, um... Take over an empty bedroom, um, with Alex Ryan. Ironically enough, Alex Ryan and I, uh, knew each other from our childhood years. And his father was the... He was the head of sales or marketing for Beringer back in the Nestle days.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Mark Beringer:
So-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
... Bill Ryan was kind of a, a legend within the Beringer organization in that, um, in that era. And, of course, Alex grew up in the business, and ended up at Fresno. And to this day, he's the President of, uh, Duckhorn Vineyards. So-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
... we all kind of came back and, and took our paths. But, but also, one of my roommates at Fresno was David Duckhorn.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah, David.
Mark Beringer:
... from the Duckhorn family.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah.
Mark Beringer:
Uh, Andy Gridley, that you may know. He s-sells boots, barrels to all of us.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
A good friend of mine. So, yeah, there's a whole group of us that went through Fresno, during that area, from, you know, from this, uh, region.
Doug Shafer:
This region? That's kinda neat.
Mark Beringer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
So, you get out of Fresno, it's, uh, what? 19... You... Were you in the '90s yet?
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, it was 1990-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
... that I graduated, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And, uh-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... what was the next move?
Mark Beringer:
Well, I came back and I actually worked a full harvest with Raymond. I'd... usually had to leave a little bit early, to go down to Fresno and, uh, work in the winery there.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
So, I get to work a whole full season through, um, with the team. Um, and got to about the holidays, and went to talk to my uncle, Walt, and see if he might have a full-time job for me. And-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
... he said, "No." (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Oh, no. No. Come on. Um, god, family is tough sometimes. Really?
Mark Beringer:
Yeah. You know, he-
Doug Shafer:
Uncle Walt said-
Mark Beringer:
He's like-
Doug Shafer:
Walt Raymond, my f-, my buddy, Walt Raymond, nice guy, down in Arizona-
Mark Beringer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... relaxing, playing golf right now? God darn it.
Mark Beringer:
Exactly.
Doug Shafer:
Uh, oh.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, you know?
Doug Shafer:
He shut you down.
Mark Beringer:
It was like, "Buddy-
Doug Shafer:
He shut you down.
Mark Beringer:
He did.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Mark Beringer:
He didn't have anything for me.
Doug Shafer:
So much for family, man. I tell ya. That's all right.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah. No, but, you know, he was trying to give me my, uh, my push out of the nest-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
... and it was the right thing to do. It was bad timing in the business, 'cause, uh, the '90s were rough.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
Um, and it was December, and then not a lot of people hiring in the wine business, but everybody gets laid off about that time. You know-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
... if you're in a harvest position, internship, whatever. So, uh, I w-, ironically found a job working for, um, a larger winery called Glen Ellen-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
... with the Benzinger family, if you know the Benzinger boys.
Doug Shafer:
Yep.
Mark Beringer:
Um-
Doug Shafer:
A successful family, successful family wine business, for sure, at that time.
Mark Beringer:
Legend-legendary, I would say.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah. I'd agree.
Mark Beringer:
Uh, it's not just in their business practices, but in their, uh, recreational practices, (laughing).
Doug Shafer:
Oh, I didn't know that part, but that's okay.
Mark Beringer:
And they were-
Doug Shafer:
I'll take your word for it.
Mark Beringer:
And they were like, they liked to party, and they liked to ski. And, um, did... we did big ski trips up to the mountains, uh, as a team. And, yeah, we had a lot of fun there. There's no doubt about it. And there was no holiday left unturned, in terms of having a party.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs). Oh, the things I'm finding out from you. Um-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Good. So, you're c-, working, so you're working, I'm assuming, in the cellar? Um, so, some-
Mark Beringer:
Yep. I was, I was operating a massive D-E Filter.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
A pressure lift filter, um, for bottling. So, I received tanker trucks, made the blends, filtered it, and gave it to bottling. So, I saw the wine for about 48 to 72 hours.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Mark Beringer:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
And that, and that was his... Eh, curious, 'cause a winery that size, is that something that you're kind of doing year round, or is it seasonal?
Mark Beringer:
It was pretty year round.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Mark Beringer:
Um, they operated under a just-in-time philosophy, or JIT, as it's referred to.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
Um, so, basically, the wines were, were bottled on demand. Uh, orders were placed out in the market and then the wine would be assembled from the bulk components and, you know, finished up, and, and put into packaging. So, we didn't carry a lot of inventory, or in a warehouse.
Doug Shafer:
Interesting.
Mark Beringer:
It wasn't like we do in luxury wine making, where we, we bottle, essentially, this... the entire vintage and then deplete the warehouse. It was very different.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. So, very different from what, what we're doing now, and, uh-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... what the rest of us do. So, interesting. I didn't... So, they've got it in bulk, and when the orders come in, they make the blend and bottle it, and ship it out to fill the order?
Mark Beringer:
Yep-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
... that's exactly... We had a couple of high-speed bottling lines and just crank it out, and we wou-... It aged on the truck.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs), wow. That's a different world. That's a-
Mark Beringer:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
... different world for me, for sure.
Mark Beringer:
Not, (laughs), what we're accustomed to. No.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs), yeah.
Mark Beringer:
Not anymore.
Doug Shafer:
But successful. So, you're there-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... for, uh... How long were you at, uh... with the Glen Ellen crew?
Mark Beringer:
So, I spent a year and a half with them, total. They... I got a promotion halfway through, to assistant winemaker, and they moved me into the Benzinger line of wine service, or luxury portfolio.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Um, but I didn't do that for very long. In, uh, 1992, I got a phone call from my old roommate, Alex Ryan, over at Duckhorn. And, um, he said that they had a position, potentially, opening up and wanted to know if I was interested. And, um, it was really a bottom level position. I was an assistant winemaker, uh, where I was, but it, it was just a, a cellar man-... you know, just a cellar role.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
Enologist role, if you will, um, to come over to, to join the Duckhorn team, and I, I took it. Uh, I figured I go-... I would take a demotion in, in title, and everything, to work for a brand as well known as Duckhorn.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man. Yeah. I mean, 'cause tha-... 199-... It was 1992, right? That's when you made the new role?
Mark Beringer:
Yes, it was 1992, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And, and Duckhorn, and that's kinda when Duckhorn just exploded. I mean, you were there for I think 15 years, is what I could found. And, uh-
Mark Beringer:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
... it was the '92 to 2007. Tell me about that. Because, you know, I think Dan was still there, Dan Duckhorn. Alex was there.
Mark Beringer:
Oh, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Tom Rinaldi. What, what were the... What were all those guys doing? What were you doing? Tell me about the Duckhorn years.
Mark Beringer:
Oh, yeah, those were great years. Um, you know, when I arrived, Duckhorn was maybe a 30, 35,000 case winery.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
Um, we made, uh, like five wines. You know, like Merlot, Cabernet, Sauvignon Blanc, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
Pretty straight forward. The Three Palms Merlot, of course. Um-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
... but then, by the time I left, we had w-... there was only 12 employees, I think, at that time.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
I have a Christmas card from that year-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
... with all of us sitting on the barrel. Uh, it's pretty hilarious. But, you know, Tom was the, the winemaker, had been since the very beginning, um-
Doug Shafer:
Which was seventy... Yeah, '78, I know that. We had the first in 1978.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, 1978.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
Yep. Um, and Dan and Margaret, of course, was very involved. Dan ran... You know, he's the President of the company. Um, Margaret really ran marketing and sales. Uh, Kellie Duckhorn was there as well. She was in, uh, the marketing side.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
Um, so, it was a really tight group. We were like family. Alex ran the vineyards. Uh, eventually took over running the company, as Dan began to pull back and retire.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
But, um, you know, that was a great run. We, we launched a bunch of new line extensions, uh, within Duckhorn. We launched new brands. We bought property, we built wineries. That was, that was a crazy time.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, it was-
Mark Beringer:
Um, had a lot of fun, though.
Doug Shafer:
It was crazy. I mean, um, uh, k-, help me, when did Paraduxx come online? What year? Do you remember that?
Mark Beringer:
S-... Yeah, it was 1994, was our first vintage. Um-
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Mark Beringer:
... we were playing around with Zinfandel. And Dan wanted to make this like, like, like a super Tuscan, but super Napa.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
And he felt that Zin was gonna be Ca-... it's California's variety, let's blend it with... He wanted to blend it with Merlot, but that never really worked, it worked better with cab, because it's the universal donor. Um, but, uh, the... with those two together-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs), universal donor.
Mark Beringer:
... that's what we got.
Doug Shafer:
Well, I, I gotta, uh... 'Cause I have a memory. So, Shafer was about the same size as Duckhorn was, at that time, you know. And we're still the same size, (laughs). And, uh-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, you guys are about the same size.
Doug Shafer:
And still about, about the same size.
Mark Beringer:
You're the same.
Doug Shafer:
And we got about five wines. And, you know, about, you know, 20 employees, and that's it. Um, but I remember, it was a wine auction in the summertime, you know, charity, charity auction we have out here. And it was, we had some, uh, joint, um, dinner. We got Duckhorn, Shafer, and a couple other wineries are hosting for like 50 or 60 people, at someone's place. And, um, it's the beginning of the thing. A lot of people aren't there.
Doug Shafer:
And I... You know, Dan’s there and then, and this, he goes, "Hey, Shafer, Shafer, come here." And I walk over, and he's got this bottle. And he, he pulls the cork, and he shows me the label, and the label is this Paraduxx thing. I said, "What's this?" He goes, "Oh, it's the coolest thing. We're doing this new thing." And he started to describe it. You know, "Zinfandel, this, and this." And I thought to myself, "Oh, come on, really? No way. This is... There's no way this is gonna-
Mark Beringer:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
... there's no way this is gonna work. It's like..." And he was all excited about it. And, you know, and I kind of forgot about it. And then within a year or two, the thing explodes. And, and off Dan and the Duckhorn team go, to greater glory. So, he was good.
Mark Beringer:
Well, I can't tell you how many times I gave Dan that same look and went, "Man, you're crazy."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, (laughing).
Mark Beringer:
He was, yeah, 'case-
Doug Shafer:
Well, well, the Decoy, and the Migration, and the whole thing. But, uh, incredibly successful. Um-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I had, I had dinner with them about, uh, last summer, I think, with Nancy, and Annette, and Dan, and I, and it was cute. It was great to see him again. And, all of a sudden, he and I are having a private conversation, he goes, he leans over, he goes, he goes, "Tell me." I go, "What?" He goes, "Tell me you're still not like 30,000 cases, are you?" I go, "Yeah." And he goes, "God, Shafer, I told you to grow. Why didn't you do it?" (laughing), This was like... And I actually said, "Dan, you were right. I really blew it." And then with... But I'm thinking, "No, I made a good move. I'm happy with what we're doing." But, uh-
Mark Beringer:
Y-you know, tha-that's-
Doug Shafer:
... you know, that was pretty cute.
Mark Beringer:
I, I envy what you guys have. I mean, uh, there's two paths you can take, right? Or-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
And, uh, Dan, Dan was a, a very savvy businessman. You know, he's Berkeley educated in finance. And he felt that you, you either grow, or you play... pay taxes.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
That was his view of the, of the world. Um, but he brought in outside investors to grow-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mark Beringer:
... and, and gave up his share. By the time we sold the winery, you know, he was a pretty m-minor owner. But, you know, he did very, very well for himself.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Mark Beringer:
But for you guys to still have your family winery and still be, you know, able to make that work for you guys, is awesome. It's really an enviable position to be a family owned business in this kind of environment.
Doug Shafer:
Well, thanks man. I appreciate it. No, we, we take a lot of pride. And we've got a great team, and I'm very lucky to be surrounded by s-, great people and great grapes. And, uh, we put it all together and, you know, cross our fingers, and keep doing it, just like you guys. So...
Mark Beringer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, you had a great run at Duckhorn. And then, uh, you had, uh, another move. What happened after that? It was after, uh... What year was it-
Mark Beringer:
So, uh-
Doug Shafer:
... you guys made a move?
Mark Beringer:
It was... Yeah, in 2006, the, the shareholders of Duckhorn decided to sell the winery.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Um, and was... it was a tough time. You know, I... You had to make that decision, do you wanna stay with a new owner?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
Who, who is it gonna be? Um, or is this time to start looking at what... maybe what your next m-move could be. And, uh, I started talking with some friends and, um, you know, we have a friend in common down here, uh, in St. Helena, Mr. Joel Gott.
Doug Shafer:
Yep.
Mark Beringer:
Um, he, uh, talked to me about a project he had going on, out at, uh, what used to be Sutter Homes, uh, Chicken Ranch on, Zinfandel Lane, the Zinfandel Ranch.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
And, uh, we managed to, to, to put together a purchase of that property, and turned it into a custom precious area, that they wanted to make into a high-end wine making studios.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
And, uh, they hired me as their first GM, uh, to come on board. And went through the first year there and realized, um... But that one year was my dog year, I call it, it was seven off of my life. Um-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, no, (laughs).
Mark Beringer:
Trying to deal with investors and, you know, clients, and all that stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
And I wasn't making wine. And it was just, you know... I wa-, I was not in a good place. So, I decided to, to take a step back from that. And, uh, I stayed on as a consultant for a little while, and started my own consulting business for a little bit. And that's when 2008 hit. You know, another recession hit.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
And being a consultant during a recession is typically not the best plan of attack. Uh, a lot of people were eliminating their consultants to save money.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mark Beringer:
So, I decided I needed to get back to full-time winemaking. And, uh, I found this great opportunity with, uh, a winery called Artesa, down in Carneros.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
And what an amazing family history they have. They were, they were legitimately the oldest winemaking company in Spain, um, according to Aventas.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
And they're making wines... They've been making wine since 1551.
Doug Shafer:
And their, their, their well-known brand in Spain is what, again? I forgot. Uh-
Mark Beringer:
It's Codorníu.
Doug Shafer:
Codorníu, thank you. Thank you.
Mark Beringer:
Hmm, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
God, 1500s.
Mark Beringer:
And that's-
Doug Shafer:
Okay, how cool is-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that must have been neat.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah. And they were the first, uh, company to make méthode champenoise outside of France, and that's where Cava was created.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
And that was the very first Cava. So, they w-, had eight wineries around the world. One of them being here in California, in Carneros. So, I ran their facility. They're making mostly Pinot noir, Chardonnay, and a couple of single vineyard cabs down there.
Doug Shafer:
Neat. That must have been kind of fun. Was it fun to get back into making wine again?
Mark Beringer:
It was. And to make some varieties that I really hadn't made before.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Um, I made a little bit of Pinot, helping create Goldeneye, at Duckhorn.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
I helped create the style and develop the facility, and all that stuff, but it wasn't really my, my main job. We hired a winemaker to do that. I made the Duckhorn wines, but, um, you know, to be able to make those wines on a regular basis, uh, was really cool. And is... It was a beautiful facility, if you've never visited it. It's spec-... the p-... Most spectacular view of San Francisco, from the, the view deck up there.
Doug Shafer:
I-it is pretty. Yeah, I've been there. I've been there. And so, while you're there, uh, te-... You know, not to get personal, but let's get personal. At this point, you're married, you got kids. What's going on, you know, away from work?
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, I mean, I'd, I'd got married when I was young, um, when I was working at Duckhorn. And I, I had three daughters in that marriage, but we ended up divorcing right about the same time I left Duckhorn.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Um, so I kinda went to Artesa as a single man, but, um, met my current wife a little bit later. She was actually somebody I met, who had... was working at Duckhorn.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, great.
Mark Beringer:
Um, she's was act-... She was a, uh, uh, a pilot on sabbatical.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Um, she actually flew a lot of private jets, corporate jets, all over the world, and was looking to be a little more grounded. And she moved here from Washington, DC, and got a job working in our tasting room, and taking wine classes at the Culinary Institute. And, uh, and that's how we met.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's great. That's fun. So, does she, does she still fly, um, as a job, or no, or just for fun?
Mark Beringer:
Um, no, she hasn't been playing recently. She's actually a commercial pilot now, but she actually, um... Speaking of ex wives, your, your ex wife, I believe, works for... work for Virgin America?
Doug Shafer:
She does, yeah. Hmm, but, yeah, she's-
Mark Beringer:
They work together.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, really?
Mark Beringer:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Oh, geez. God, Mark-
Mark Beringer:
Well-
Doug Shafer:
... this is like Small World, Small World City. That's great. Yeah, Liz has been-
Mark Beringer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... a flight attendant. She's not working right now, which we're all really happy about, so I'm just taking a break.
Mark Beringer:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. So-
Mark Beringer:
Well, Liz live right down the street from us, down in, uh, this... the Napa Yacht Club.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Yeah, yeah.
Mark Beringer:
And, uh, we used to walk by her place, and we got to know her dog, and got to know her. And then realized, my wife's like, they both worked for the same company.
Doug Shafer:
That's, (laughs)...
Mark Beringer:
And so, my m-my w-... They worked together, um, on many flights. Um-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's great.
Mark Beringer:
... my is... My wife was a first officer there, so...
Doug Shafer:
That's, that's fun. Now, I'm starting to-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Now I'm starting to think about, have you and I ever worked in the same cellar together? Maybe we have somewhere around the world-
Mark Beringer:
We, we may have, at some point.
Doug Shafer:
... and maybe never know, (laughs).
Mark Beringer:
You never know.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
You never know.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, too good. So, um, Artesa, you were there for what, two or three years? A little longer. Oh, you were there for a while.
Mark Beringer:
So, I was there for six years.
Doug Shafer:
Six years? Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, six years. And then, um, in 2015, um, the opportunity came along, uh, with Beringer. I, uh, I, essentially... (laughs), this is kind of funny. I saw an ad-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
... on winejobs.com.
Doug Shafer:
I've been dying to hear this story, so go for it, man. It's-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah. So, um, in Wine Jobs, they had a, a position posted for an associate winemaker at Beringer. And I thought it would be kinda funny to, uh, throw my resume at it.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
Just to see wha-what would happen.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
Because I could just could imagine somebody in HR getting this resume with the last name Beringer on it-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
... and just like thrown to the side, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
Uh, and I was a way over qualified for an associate winemaking role. Um, I'd been a Vice President of Production in two different wineries.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
So, um... But about two days later, I, I get a L-, a message through LinkedIn, from a guy that... who's the Vice President of Operations for Treasury. And he's an old friend, an old coworker that worked for me at Duckhorn. I'd hired him right out of Davis. And I put him on the bottom line-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
... 'cause that's what I, I did.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
And, uh, he was never a fan of it. He always was mad at me for putting him on the bottom line.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
Because, you know, he wanted to do more than that, but-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
... we still always, we were mountain biking buddies, and we were friends, but he moved on. Got a m-... his masters, and ended up circling back, and ended up, you know, at treasury. And so, he, he had reached out to me, just to see what I was up to. And I said, "Well, did you get my resume?" He's like, "What resume?"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
And I said, "Well, I sent in my resume." (laughs). He goes, "You did? Why?" I said, "What?" (laughing). I thought it was funny. He goes, "Well, ironically, I'm calling you about a role we might have." And I was like, "Oh, well, let's talk." So we were trying to sculpt something. You know, Laurie Hook was still very much there.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
And Laurie, Laurie f-, had been there for almost 30 years, um-
Doug Shafer:
And grea-, wi-
Mark Beringer:
... working.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, g-, and great winemaker. Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
And she had, you know, obviously learned from the great Ed Sbragia. We kind of skipped over Ed there.
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Mark Beringer:
I mean, his era was one of the most significant, I think, you know, in Napa Valley winemaking history. I mean, he brought the private reserves to the forefront, at number one wines in the world from the Wine Spectator. And really put Beringer back on the map, in terms of the luxury portfolio.
Doug Shafer:
He did. And he was there kind of, hmm, mid '70s, '80s? End of the '90s-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, he was one of the-
Doug Shafer:
'80s, '90s, yeah.
Mark Beringer:
He was one of the early Fresno graduates.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
And, and he was working with Myron Nightingale, who was after Roy.
Doug Shafer:
That's... Okay, I remember Myron. Okay.
Mark Beringer:
So, Myron was the great scientific winemaker, one of the first. And, uh, so, he was training... Ed was training under Myron-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
... for many years, before he became head winemaker in the '80s. And they created the prices of wines together. And then Laurie came in, and the same thing. There was a succession plan in place. She worked 15 years with Ed, and then for 15 years, post Ed, from 2000, until 2015.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. What a, what a lineup of winemakers at that place. It's incredible. Okay. So, here you come. So, what?
Mark Beringer:
So-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
... yeah, so-
Doug Shafer:
So, so, what-
Mark Beringer:
I, I was trying to-
Doug Shafer:
What are you doing there? (laughs).
Mark Beringer:
I was trying to get all creative and sculpt some sort of ideal role for myself. You know, that-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
... "Oh, maybe I'll work with Laurie. We could do a project together, maybe create a wine around the family legacy. I could be a brand ambassador. You know-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
... travel and promote." Because Laurie was not always a, a huge fan of that piece of, you know, the, the job. And so, as we got further and further along in the process, I think Laurie had gotten to a point where she's like, "This might be a good time for me to, to think of doing something else."
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Mark Beringer:
And so... Uh, but this was unknown to me. Uh, whole time, I thought I was still trying to create this role. I interviewed with seven different people throughout the company. And at the end of the line, all of a sudden, one day they said, "Okay, we wanna offer you the job of chief winemaker at Beringer Vineyards." And I just, my first thing out of my mouth was, "What's going on with Laurie?"
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.
Mark Beringer:
And the said, it was, "She's just, she..." They said, "She's decided to, um... Gonna take a sabbatical and, uh, and do some world travel-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
... and take a break from winemaking." She'd been there for 30 years, who could blame her? And, um, later, we got to talk about it, and she said, "You know, if there was anybody that I was gonna be feel c-... feel comfortable handing this off to, it'd be you."
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Mark Beringer:
So, it worked out really well. That, uh, the timing was right, I guess, for both of us. And so, in 2015, I became only the eighth chief winemaker in 143 years now.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. You feeling any pressure, big guy? (laughing). Well, no, no. Listen, lis-... Seriously, con-... First of all, congratulations.
Mark Beringer:
Thank you. Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
I mean, how cool is this? How cool is this? This whole full circle thing. You know, your uncles must be just cracking up. Um, everybody in-
Mark Beringer:
Oh, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Everybody in the family, your folks. And then, I mean, it's an, you know, and it's an honor. It's a feather in your cap, at the sa-, at the same time, realistically, like I said, eh, what's it like? Is it kind of a pressure, pressure situation, or... I mean, but you've been making wine for a long time, but what's it... How are you doing with it? I'm, curious, (laughs), man.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, I mean, uh, I mean, I th-, w-... I think the whole time through the process, I knew I had the resume for it. I knew I had had my accomplishments. You know, I'd gotten winemaker of the year, and I had worked with all these different varietals. I'm like, "This is the time. I'm ready for this."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
And then you walk in the door the first time-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
... and you realize how huge of a responsibility I've just taken off.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs), yeah. Oh.
Mark Beringer:
And the reputation, and the global, you know, recognition of, of the Beringer brand.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
And, you know, assuming the shoes, if you will, of all of these amazing winemakers, who were my predecessors. And, uh, (laughs), and also inheriting a portfolio of wines that we're storing in the high '90s, from Parker, and from the Spectator. And you're like, "Holy crap-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
... there's only one way to go with this thing, pretty much." You know, there's-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
... very little room to go up. So, yeah, it was a lot of pressure, um, in the very first couple of years. And it wasn't until we got our first, you know, 2015 Private Reserve Cab in the bottle aged and put in front of the major critics that I finally got to have a little bit of a breath of, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
... relief. Because, uh, James Suckling gave it 99 points, and that was it. That was-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
Like that's when we realized, "Okay-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
... we did it. And we're, we're doing the right thing." Um-
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Mark Beringer:
... so, i-it's taken some of that pressure off.
Doug Shafer:
I'm so happy for you. I really am. I mean, 'cause I, I remember reading about you, (laughs), getting the job at Beringer. It was like, it was like, "Huh, (laughing), w-what's that all about?" (laughing). And, uh, you know, and then, you know, you... everybody gets to work, and grows grapes, and makes wine. And you have to wait a couple of years, 'cause the wine's aging. You bottle it, and they have to get out and see if people like it. So, good for you-
Mark Beringer:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
... man. Congratulations. That's really, really, really cool. So, you, you-
Mark Beringer:
Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
... must be having fun. It's gotta be a gas.
Mark Beringer:
It is. You know, I, I, I get to m-... work with some of the greatest vineyards around, and get to travel and see the world, and, and spread the, uh, the gospel of, of the Beringer brand around the, the planet. And not right now, but I have been consulting (laughs), some frequent-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs), yeah, we-
Mark Beringer:
... flyers about it.
Doug Shafer:
And, and that'll come back. You know, I'm, I'm in the same boat. We're, we're... We'll be back out there again, for sure. Um, what, uh... Y-you know I... The initial pressure's off. You've got your... You know, you've been doing it for a couple of years at Beringer. You're, you're settled in. Any thoughts about what you can contribute to the whole legacy of Beringer? Um, or is that just too crazy a question?
Mark Beringer:
Well, I think, you know, the number one goal coming in was maintain the level of quality that exists. And, and maintaining it under an, um, an increasingly more challenging, uh, you know, climate that we're in.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
Um, you know, the business isn't getting any easier, right? Um, so as people try to challenge you on cost, and things like that, and still maintaining this really high level of quality. Um, but at the same time, we wanted to create something that was kind of, um, I guess iconic, that would be symbolic of my arrival back to the winery, and my, my, uh, continuation of the family legacy. So, we created a new wine in 2016.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, cool.
Mark Beringer:
Uh, it just got released for the first time back in November, on November 8th.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
And it's called the Eighth Maker.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, cool. The Eighth Maker? Good-
Mark Beringer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
A good name. I like good names. I like it. It's-
Mark Beringer:
So, yeah. So, being the eighth maker in, in the lineup, um, and eights are very symbolic, both to me personally, and to many cultures. Um, having traveled through Asia a lot, the number eight is really symbolic of prosperity, longevity. Um, and I happen to love the number eight, because it's, it's my favorite number, it was my wife's. So, we end up getting married, actually on 8/8/08, August 8th, of 2008.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs), I love this.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, tell me about, is this under the Beringer label, or is it a-
Mark Beringer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... a new label?
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
A new brand?
Mark Beringer:
It's under the Beringer label.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Um, we only made a, you know, a few hundred cases. They're packed in a very fancy, um, you know, lacquered wood box that, uh, is, you know, with a little booklet in there, that describes the winemaking-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Mark Beringer:
... you know, process. But, um, it's a really cool package. And, uh, the wine's really solid. I mean, it's a little different style than the... our Private Reserve. A lot of people think of the big huge mountain fruit tannins.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
That the Private Reserve is supposed to go in a cellar and age for decades. Um, we wanted to make something a little different. Maybe a little more polished, a little more plush. A little bit outside the normal style of Beringer. So, um, we, we put that in the bottle, um, a couple of years ago. We got it... You know, it's getting some of our first reviews. It's got a 99 point rating as well, from, from James Suckling.
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Mark Beringer:
So, we're pretty proud of that.
Doug Shafer:
And I'm assuming it's Ca-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It's Cabernet, right? (laughs).
Mark Beringer:
Y-yeah-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
... it's Cabernet, 100, yeah, 100%.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
And, uh, it comes mainly from the home ranch, the original property, uh, in St. Helena, that my great-great-grandfather bought back in 1875. So, I really wanted to bring that to be a c-, a major component of it. And then brought in a little bit of our Steinhauer, off our mountain, to give it a little bit of punch. But, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Cool.
Mark Beringer:
... yeah, it's a great wine. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
Um, so n-, this is, so this is brand new. You just grow... Oh, before I forget how do peo-... People who wanna check this out, what's the best way for 'em to get a bottle, or, or more?
Mark Beringer:
Um-
Doug Shafer:
And so-
Mark Beringer:
... we, we sell it right at the Rhine House-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
... um, in St. Helena. It's not really out there, um-
Doug Shafer:
And just-
Mark Beringer:
... in major distribution.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
It may get there at some point, we'll see. Um, but right now, it's only available at the winery. And from the website.
Doug Shafer:
And is that... This is c-... Is the wine really, um, taking, you know, will call orders, if people wanted so, tha-that type of thing? Is... Because it's not... W-we're not open f-... to the public, but if they wanted to buy it, could they pick it up, if you folks were to-
Mark Beringer:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, we're, we're all trying to get creative right now.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, it's a-
Mark Beringer:
And, uh-
Doug Shafer:
... it's a moving, it's a moving target, for sure.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, it's been tough, 'cause we are closed, uh, to the public right now, but we can do, uh, pick ups.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Um, so, if you're a member of one of our wine clubs, or if you place an order online, or call in and place an order, um, we are doing one day a week, I believe it's Wednesdays right now, for a few hours, like noon to 2:00, 11:00 to 2:00.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
And you can drive in, show your ID, and they'll pop it in your trunk, and off you go without even, uh, coming in contact with somebody.
Doug Shafer:
Good. Great. Good idea. And for all your wines, you've got such a great range of them. I mean, 'cause your, your, your wines, basically, um, span the whole... You know, s-, from very affordable to top end, high end, um, lots of different choices. Mostly all under the Beringer brand, right? Or th-, you've got a couple other brands too?
Mark Beringer:
Yeah. I mean, under the Beringer name, we have our commercial wines. You know, like the White Zinfandels of the world, and things like that, that have been around for a long time. But those are really kind of separated from our luxury business-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
... which wines are made at our other facilities, um, in Paso Robles, down in that, that region.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
Um, we only really make our luxury portfolio up here in Napa. So, we now have kind of taken that Beringer white zin, and we use the name Main and Vine now.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
So, the main and vine tier of wines is kind of taking that over. And trying to separate the Beringer name from the more commercial wines.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Mark Beringer:
And try to... Because there's, there's this bit of a centering effect, I call it. The lower wines kinda get, you know, pulled down the luxury wines, and luxury wines kinda, hopefully, pull up your commercial lines, and you'll end up in the center. So-
Doug Shafer:
Uh, a good point.
Mark Beringer:
... you know, we wanna be able to use the Beringer name as being the, the true luxury part of the portfolio, and try to separate that a little bit. So, but we d-
Doug Shafer:
No, that's, that's good, yeah.
Mark Beringer:
But, you know, the Private Reserve wines, of course, are the main ones in that level. We have, also, another line of, um, Distinction Wines, we call them. That's our, our Cabernet, our red blend. And then our Luminous Chardonnay, which is a crisper style of Chardonnay. And then we have our, uh, regional tiers, like the Knights Valley Cabernet, that people know so well, and our Napa Valley Chardonnay, things like that.
Doug Shafer:
Right. No, uh, it's-
Mark Beringer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... it's, um, uh, it's g-, it's good to hear you make that comment about, you know, the brand and, and keeping, you know, keeping the Beringer name synonymous with, you know, the best wines you make. I think that's really important. I totally agree with that. And, uh, I'm glad, glad it's happening. But, now, you got, uh, lots of great wines from all over the spectrum, and lots of wonderful vineyards. The things you guys have, where you've got some, some dynamite vineyards you've had for a long, long time. And, and we all know what, uh, you know, what you need to make top wines is top vineyards. So, that's good to have.
Mark Beringer:
That's right.
Doug Shafer:
It's good you guys have that. So, Mark, eh, what else have you got? Any oth-, any other pearls of wisdom for me, before we check out here?
Mark Beringer:
You know, I was thinking, when... before we got on the, on the phone here, that, uh, I remember, uh, I did a presentation for... I think it was for the premier auction here, as part of the Napa Valley Vintners, um, uh, annual auction.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Mark Beringer:
Um, and I was asked to be on a panel, um, to present some wines. And I was, I was at Duckhorn at this time. And I had to bring a wine that I made, and a wine that I didn't make.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
And basically tell a story about that wine I didn't make, and why I chose it to go with the wine I made. And I chose Shafer Hillside Select.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Mark Beringer:
Uh, I think your dad remembers this 'cause, uh, I remember he came and talked to me after it. But I, I don't know if you knew this story? But-
Doug Shafer:
No, I haven't heard this.
Mark Beringer:
... I ga-, I gave a, a complete seminar that half of my presentation was about your winery-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
... and about the Hillside Select wine, and what I loved about it. And I learned something, and, and maybe you can verify this for me, because I'm a skier-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
... the Hillside Select Vineyards, are they named after ski slopes? Is that what I heard?
Doug Shafer:
Um, one of them is. The, uh-
Mark Beringer:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
The... His original... Well, actually, wasn't his original. The original cab thing, it was called the Upper Seven, and still to this day. It was seven acres up high on the hill. And, uh... But then the next one, which has turned out to always be the building block of Hillside Select is a vineyard we... he named Sunspot. And Sunspot's the name of a beautiful run in Alta, Utah, where he used to take us to ski when we were kids. And so, one of those runs-
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... you know, it's like in, uh, at 1:00 and 2:00 in the afternoon, where the, the western sun is just hitting this thing, and it's spring time. And, you know, it's, it's getting to be a little sp-, a little slushy, maybe, but maybe not. But it's just, um, that was his favorite run. And we named that vineyard Sunspot-
Mark Beringer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
... and it's a... So, it's... has a lot of great meaning. You know, it's great wine. Well, our premier lot is always from the Sunspot Vineyard. And, uh... But great memories of growing up with my dad, skiing in Utah. So, it's all good.
Mark Beringer:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
Thanks for this-
Mark Beringer:
See, I love those kind of stories.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Thanks for sharing that. I've never heard that one. I appreciate it.
Mark Beringer:
Yeah, yeah, you bet.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Mark Beringer:
Well, I always figured if it snowed around here, you'd have some good vineyards to ski on.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Mark Beringer:
That's some good slope up there.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, me too, (laughing). All right, Mark. Hey, thanks for taking the time. Great chatting with you. I've learned so much today, and I can hardly wait to, you know, do this again over a c-, glass of wine, or two.
Mark Beringer:
You got it. That sounds awesome.
Doug Shafer:
All right, man. Good luck to you. See you around.
Mark Beringer:
Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
Thanks.
Mark Beringer:
All right. Take care.
Doug Shafer:
Thanks.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Hey everybody Doug Shafer, welcome back to The Taste. Um, because we're in these crazy times, I'm gonna give you the date. We're recording on Tuesday, April 21st, 2020, uh, via phone and uh, technology. And we've got a great guest today, Christie Kerr. Um, I've... Christie, you have to bear with me. I've got to tell everybody all about you. One of the most accomplished-
Cristie Kerr:
... (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
...accomplished athletes in women's golf. She's accumulated 20 LPGA victories, including two major championships, nine Solheim Cup appearances, four Wendy's tour victories, and over 180 top 10 finishes. She's involved in fundraising for a ton of incredible charitable organizations, which we'll talk about. She's got a ton of accomplishments. She's got two little kids. She's stuck at home, (laughs) and on top of that, she's a Napa Valley Vintner, so Christie, welcome to The Taste.
Cristie Kerr:
Thank you for having me. I'm, I'm very, I'm very honored to be in, in great company on this, uh, uh, podcast.
Doug Shafer:
Hey, are you kidding? You, you can st- you can stick greens and hit the golf ball like really, really well. I mean, I'm honored to be talking to you. In fact, I'm really upset you're not here cause I need some help with my short game, but I'll, I'll need a lot of help with my short game, but … anyway, uh, how are you doing? Where are you guys at? Where are you, where are you hold up right now?
Cristie Kerr:
We are in sunny Scottsdale, Arizona where the golf courses are still open.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Cristie Kerr:
And um, yeah, yeah. Only, but I mean, the clubs only allow members to come and you have to go on separate carts or walk.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
And, um, you know, some of the hiking trails are still open, which is nice because-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
... it's going to get up into the upper nineties next week. So enjoy the good weather while we have it.
Doug Shafer:
Nice. Nice. I was going to ask you about practicing cause the golf courses around here are shut down. So, uh, I was wondering if you were able to play and practice. That's, that's good news I guess, huh?
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah. I mean nobody really knows when we're going to start back. So I think we're supposed to hear something on May 1st from the LPGA. Um, nobody really knows. I mean we're going to have at least six weeks, um, to prep before the, the, I would say the first event back.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
Uh, which, who knows when that'll be and who knows what that's going to look like. Um, fans or no fans, so there'll be plenty of time, you know, I mean, and I have two young kids and they can keep me very busy and we have to homeschool our six year old now because-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
... all the schools are close through the end of the year. So it's still pretty busy. I've, I've actually learned, um, to enjoy cleaning my house. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs). Wow.
Cristie Kerr:
And uh, drinking a lot of wine. Trying, trying to get some business done. Um, uh, I am also studying to be a sommelier. I passed my level one with a quartermaster sommeliers two years ago. So take it pretty seriously.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, good for you. That's really-
Cristie Kerr:
Thanks.
Doug Shafer:
That's good. I saw that. We'll talk more about that in a minute, but let's start in the beginning. What, you know, where were you born? Where'd you grow up? Let's go all the way back.
Cristie Kerr:
Whoa. Come way back.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, we're going way back.
Cristie Kerr:
Way back. Um, I was born, uh, on Miami beach, uh, in Florida, uh, Mount Sinai Hospital and live there pretty much until I was 20 and then started traveling around the world playing professional golf.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Cristie Kerr:
Uh, lived in Miami, California, Texas. Um, you know, from traveling around, just playing, I just fell in love with Arizona and the desert. It was completely different than what I grew up with, which were Palm trees and water. And this is desert and mountains and dryer climate. Um, no humidity. So I just kinda, I, I fell in love with, with Scottsdale. You know, coming here, playing in LPGA events and you know, my husband and I came, you know, for a decade before we decided to finally move there part-time and subsequently full time. So, uh, you know, pretty busy.
Doug Shafer:
There you go. So growing up siblings, mom and dad, what were they, what were they doing? Did you have any siblings? How'd that all work out?
Cristie Kerr:
I have a half sister, 10 years older, but we had different fathers and she lived in New York and Connecticut and stuff and I didn't really see her much.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
So we're not real close. Um, but her half-brother Stevie Lewis is, I considered to be like my brother, brother-brother, even though, you know, he's got no blood relation-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
... to me, which is, you know, that's sometimes that's the way family works out. So, um, and my mom and dad, uh, they're from New York. They, they moved down to Florida before I was born. Um, so all my family's either in Long Island or Manhattan. Um still, and um, they've been divorced for like 30 years, so, um-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
... I just moved my mom out to Scottsdale actually.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, great. I had a, I had a stint in Arizona, I taught junior high school in Tucson back before I got into making wine.
Cristie Kerr:
Sounds like the wild, wild West.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Cristie Kerr:
Still.
Doug Shafer:
It, It's still, it's still that way. Yeah, I can believe it. It was meant to.
Cristie Kerr:
So it's definitely dusty or like a more artsy town.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
Um, than, uh, than Phoenix is more Metro.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah. How about a wine at home growing up? Was that part of the home scene?
Cristie Kerr:
No, it wasn't.
Doug Shafer:
Interesting.
Cristie Kerr:
It wasn't, it, it definitely wasn't. Um, you know, neither of my parents really drank and um, it wasn't till I started traveling around the world and playing in golf tournaments all over the place and finally got to the opportunity in the late nineties, early two thousands for four or five years in a row to play in the Samsung world championship of women's golf. It was a top 30 invite only no cut event-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
... which is great for the Napa Valley.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
Um, and um, you know, I had just come of age to drink and just sort of going around wine tasting and with my friends, played practice rounds really early and just really enjoyed the Valley. And got to meet a lot of people and over many, many years, over 12 years of going there, made a lot of friends, vintners, winemakers, um, just fell in love with it-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I'm conc- curious about you and golf because you know, you started playing at age eight. How did that happen? How did, how'd the whole golf thing happened for you?
Cristie Kerr:
Well, um, you know, growing up in Miami's kind of a rough place to, to grow up. There's a lot of crimes. There's a lot of drugs and um, my parents were, my father was a school teacher, my mom was like a paralegal. And, um, you know, my father really stressed academics to me and getting me involved in sports. Um, just a way of just keeping me out of trouble. Like any youth down there-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Cristie Kerr:
... you need them to give them positive influences, um, so that they can, you know, grow up with the right morality, the right values. And, um, you know, both of my parents were the athletes that almost made it to the professional ranks. Um, my mom was a swimmer, my dad played baseball but, but didn't quite make it.
Doug Shafer:
Uh-huh.
Cristie Kerr:
So I guess I was the one in the family that, that made it. They just, they tried a lot of different sports with me and um, in golf was the one that stuck. And, um, I guess I made it. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
That's cool. Well, any other, other sports while you're doing the golf thing? High school team sports or anything like that or not?
Cristie Kerr:
I mean, I tried tennis. I wasn't great at tennis. Um, I was very good academically. I could have gone to college on an academic scholarship. Um, I did bowling when I, when I grew up.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Cristie Kerr:
I, you know, I tried like, you know, girls softball and stuff and, but golf was really the one that just stuck.
Doug Shafer:
That's pretty cool.
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, and I read, so you played in high school, on the golf team?
Cristie Kerr:
I did. I did play in high school. I played on the boys team, um, for nearly four years because they didn't have a, a woman's team.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
So I, I had to compete against the boys.
Doug Shafer:
How was that?
Cristie Kerr:
It, it was tough in the beginning. Because they didn't want to, you know, they didn't want a girl to compete against them or with them and, um, you know, subsequently beat them.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Cristie Kerr:
But, um, it was, um, you know, my, my dad always said the best, let your clubs do the talking and you know, they'll respect you. And that's, that's what ended up happening. I have still have great friends from, you know, being on that high school team for four years and, and I still keep in touch with them and um, you know, you make friendships for a lifetime doing that kind of stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Right. So I, I was thinking about you yesterday and this whole, in the whole pro golfer thing and just a pro athlete. When did you, I mean, because even like with me for wine making, I was talking to David Graves the other day, um, and we both been making wine over 30 years. And, um, I asked him, I said, do, do you ever feel like you totally have it? He goes, "No." I said, "Me either." So as a pro athlete, when did you, when did it click? When did you actually think to yourself, hey, I'm, I'm really good at this. Not that you're being vain or anything like that. It's like, man, this can, I can really do this. I can be a pro. When did that happen?
Cristie Kerr:
I don't, I don't know if I ever really looked at it that way because I always felt like I was fated to do this. Like I was born to do this.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Cristie Kerr:
It wasn't like a realization that I was really good. Um, I mean, I think that came along the way, but I mean, even now as a pro golfer doing it for 25 years, you still don't feel like you have it. Just like you guys, you still don't feel like you ever really have it. But, um, I don't know. Like, yeah, a lot of people say, how do you know you were supposed to do this? And I said, since I was 10 years old watching Freddy Couples on the bed in my bedroom, like hanging up in the bank on number 12, like at Augusta, like watching him win the masters, like watching, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
Like I, I've always known that I was meant to play professional golf and I feel like sometimes things in life are just God-given.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm.
Cristie Kerr:
And I feel like I never questioned that even when it got tough. I have always had faith that things would turn around and, and you never give up. I mean, and that's, I think that's been kind of like my mantra, my, my spirit is that I, I never give up. And maybe that's one of the reasons I've been successful, but, um, I've always felt like I was meant to do this. Whether it was, you know, my parents helped to give me that confidence that I could do it. I mean, it wasn't all easy going along, growing up, playing in junior amateur tournaments and then professionally I didn't succeed in the beginning. And you just wonder why, why me? Like why? And I, the only reason I can turn to is God-given talent. It's God-given perseverance and I'm one of the people that he's chosen on the earth to do good things and give back.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
And I feel like that's really kind of why I've succeeded.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Well, and, and you know, I was reading, I'm reading up on you. I mean you were a junior golf champion, Florida state champion three years in a row, 93, 94, 95 that's starting at age 16 that's pretty, that's pretty amazing. I mean, that's, that's really cool. (laughs).
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I'm just, you know.
Cristie Kerr:
I did. I've done a lot of really cool things and I feel like I'm turning 43 this year and I'm like having to write them all down now and remember them all because (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) join the club my friend.
Cristie Kerr:
Like I want, yeah, exactly. I've won like 20 tournaments in a European tour event and like if I had to remember them right now, I couldn't tell you offhand. (laughs) Like what they were. Um, I can tell you my last three because they came in one year in 17, but, um, I have my perpetual mommy brain.
Doug Shafer:
Well, you know -
Cristie Kerr:
I'm like, I'm like why did I go in the fridge? Why did I go in the pantry? Where's my phone?
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Yeah. I don't know. You know, it's, it's funny cause I don't know if it's a memory thing with age or it's just a, you know, we all have that many more years that I've got the questions, you know, like, hey, what was the ‘88 harvest like? It's like, oh man, I don't remember that. That was a long time ago. You know, it was-
Cristie Kerr:
No, there's a reason Wine Spectator publishes vintage charts. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) That's the reason, I knew it. Oh, so after these junior tournaments and so you forego college and decided to go pro, I was curious about that decision going pro, skipping college were your folks okay with that? Was that a tough decision? I, you know, tell me about that one.
Cristie Kerr:
We made it as a family. Um, I mean I was so immensely talented and my GPA was 4.35 and I finished high school pretty much in my junior year so that I could do a work study program for Jim McLean and, and, and, you know, work for his golf schools and, um, he's, he's always been my big mentors is Jim McLean.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm.
Cristie Kerr:
Um, you know, one of the top, you know three coaches ever. Um, and so I got to work at his golf schools and practice and stuff and get ready to play professional golf like my, my parents and I made a decision that if golf didn't work out with my grades, I could always go back to school and get a degree. We, we didn't like the idea of going for a year and quitting.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
Going for two years and quitting and taking a scholarship away from another female athlete because at the time there weren't that many available. Um, so it was either this, the decision to try to go to school, cause if I went to school, I was going to go for four, four years and get a degree.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
Um, if, and if I wanted to try to play golf, I was gonna try to play golf. So, you know, it was one or the other and my grades were good enough that I could have gone on an academic scholarship after. So, uh, it was a decision to go all in.
Doug Shafer:
That's so cool. So you're like, ah, this was 96, 97, right?
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah, mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
Right, so you're 18, 19, 20 and your dad was a big help, right? That's what I was reading.
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah. I mean, my mom stayed at home and, you know, took care of the house-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Cristie Kerr:
... and my dad um, took a sabbatical from, you know, teaching. He, you know, my dad taught K through five for 40 years.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Cristie Kerr:
Um, and um, you know, he traveled with me for my first couple of years until I was ready to do it on my own. So, uh, it was, it was, it was very difficult the first couple of years because transitioning from junior and amateur golf to professional golf was kind of a shock. I mean, you know, I was head and shoulders above everybody in junior and amateur golf, um, most of the time. But you know, in professional golf everybody can play every week.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
So, you know, it took me six years to win my first tournament.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. Let's say and that, but that was probably challenging cause you'd won so much as a, as a, as a junior, as an amateur.
Cristie Kerr:
Shock.
Doug Shafer:
But, yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
Complete shock. But you know, I mean, I think as a young person everybody can have a little bit too much overconfidence when they think they're really good at something and then they realize a lot of other people are good at it too.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, let's, yeah, cause the whole, the whole, the pressure must've just been totally different. Um-
Cristie Kerr:
Totally different.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
I mean, and you see it, you see, you even see it now with like Maria Fossey. I mean she carries the ball off the tee like 265 to 270. You know, she's the longest out there-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
... but she's struggling to make cuts because golf really is about winning that battle within yourself.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughs) I know. I mean, very, very amateur golfer and it's, uh, we have a love-hate relationship through the years, so -
Cristie Kerr:
Well, Silverado, Silverado is very close to Shafer-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, buts-
Cristie Kerr:
... so you can go there anytime you want. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
That's, no excuses I know, I'm busy. I'm making wine. Got to make wine.
Cristie Kerr:
Making wine, making wine, you know, you know, the summer months, uh, (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Uh, you know too much about my business since, since you're a vintner too.
Cristie Kerr:
I do.
Doug Shafer:
So you're cranking this golf and so how, what happened with the wine thing, you touched on earlier, there was a tournament up here, you started coming up, going to wineries. Tell me, tell me more about that.
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah. In my early twenties, I'm just, obviously I'd traveled the world but never really, you know, I'd, I'd always liked wine, but I'd never really dove into it. And once I got to kind of a behind-the-scenes look, um, with a bunch of different wineries in Napa, um, you know, it was, you know, whether it was going to visit Turley or Staglin or, or I've been to Shafer as well. Like it, it was really, really interesting to me, the minutia of everything. And, and how wine is a living, breathing product, you know, and it's ever changing.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
And I felt like there were a lot of correlations between that and golf and, um, I just-
Doug Shafer:
Interesting.
Cristie Kerr:
... started learning about it, just really started learning about it, making a lot of friends. Um, and we, you know, we approached a couple of different wineries about doing a project and a big company approached us and we really didn't see eye to eye on the, the type of wine that we wanted to make. And I wanted to make a very high end Napa Valley cab just because my palate really loved it.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
And, um, you know, I got the opportunity to go meet with Suzanne Pride from Pride Mountain Vineyards and um, you know, after meeting with a few other wineries, um, actually Dave Miner raised $25,000 for our breast cancer charity. Um, a lot of people don't know how much he's into the philanthropic, uh, aspect of things. But, um-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, talk, talk to me. I'm going to, I'm interrupting you. Sorry, coach.
Cristie Kerr:
Sure.
Doug Shafer:
But um, talk to me a little bit about that. Your charity, the whole breast cancer charity, which was big cause that was like 2003 or so. What, tell me about that.
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah. My mother was diagnosed in 2002 with breast cancer. Um, uh, stage two. Um, she had a lumpectomy radiation, um, and, and has been a survivor for a long time now.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Cristie Kerr:
And her sister had it. My godmother had it, my best friend's mother had it. And it just, I felt very helpless. I had always gone to other people's charity events just to support things.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm.
Cristie Kerr:
And I felt very helpless at the time going through, um, not being able to really except to go to visits, not being able to really do anything. Um, and so I took matters into my own hands and my husband and I created Birdies for Breast Cancer and we started very modestly where, you know, to this day I still give $50 per birdie I make, um, you know, an Eagle is double that.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
And, uh, I get, you know, my sponsors to match me, donations. You know, we, we didn't have an event this past year just because of, um, you know, getting our new business off the ground. But, um, you know, we, we raised over four and a half million dollars for breast cancer research and about a 13 year period of time, we've had 12 events. Uh, we have a women's health center in New Jersey still-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Cristie Kerr:
... um, that, uh, is all privately funded and anybody can go get diagnosed, treated, counsels, whether they have the ability to pay or not. So we're very, very proud of that.
Doug Shafer:
And the, the, the operation in Jersey, that's called the Christie Kerr Women's Health Center. Right?
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
And I did not actually want it named after me. And the groundbreaking was really funny. The, um, the preset made a joke, you know, you've done something really good and important when they named something after you when you're still alive. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) How come? Why is it New Jersey if you're based in Arizona and Florida?
Cristie Kerr:
Because, um, we lived in New York-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
... you know, for my husband's from New York City, my whole family's from New York City or Long Island. Um, and, I lived in New York City with my husband since 2002-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
2003, so um, I played out, I still play, I still a member of Liberty National Golf Club and I became very close to the Fireman family and the Fireman family obvio- obviously owns a lot of golf courses and, um, Liberty National Golf Club, um, in Jersey City is one of them where they have the Barclays, they've had the, you know, the president's cup there-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
... um, I'm fortunate enough to be an ambassador for that golf course still. And I had a great relationship with a Fireman family. Fireman started Reebok in the United States and, and they're massive into philanthropic causes. And um, they knew, they knew people at Jersey City Medical Center and we came up with an idea to have an event there for 10 years and pledge a, a million and a half dollars. And, and we, we met that, um, you know, that, that grant I guess or whatever you call it-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
... the, the money that you give. Um, so it was sort of like, right time, right place, let's do something really cool that'll help the community. And, um, you know, I lived right in the West Village and I played right at Liberty National Golf Clubs, so I was sort of a local.
Doug Shafer:
That's cool. So Birdies for Breast Cancer and kind of curious, can people contribute that, to that? Just to-
Cristie Kerr:
They can.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
They can, they can go to-
Doug Shafer:
There's a website for it, I'm sure.
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah, they can go to birdiesforbreastcancer.com.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. And when you have events, are they just like a fundraisers or is it like a golf event? What type of?
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah, they're golf tournaments, they're golf tournaments. So they're usually like a pre party the night before. Um, and um, you know, a full breakfast and golf day and auction and dinner and stuff after.
Doug Shafer:
Super.
Cristie Kerr:
And Thomas, our last one we did was at the Olympic club in San Francisco because we moved it out West because of the wine business.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Cristie Kerr:
So ... um, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Well, good. So, so would you tag me so I can donate a big bottle of wine for this thing please?
Cristie Kerr:
Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
And, and I-
Cristie Kerr:
I might just bet on it. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Good. And I won't, I won't play, but maybe I can come down, carry your bag for a couple of holes just for fun.
Cristie Kerr:
It’s pretty cool. You know, um, I got to the privilege of playing with, with Thomas Keller the entire day, the last time.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) oh, fun.
Cristie Kerr:
So he's a a big golfer.
Doug Shafer:
He's a, he's a, he's a big golfer. Yeah, I heard about that.
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah, he's a big golfer and I, I feel like, uh, what's, what's happening, the restaurants right now is just brutal.
Doug Shafer:
I know, it's tough.
Cristie Kerr:
So, um, uh, whether it's Ming Tsai or chef Tim Hollingsworth or Daniel Boulud or chef Keller, like you, they all have respective foundations. You guys can all go online-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
... and uh, and donate to, but, um, Gavin Kaysen up in Minnesota, um, I got to meet all these guys like during the Robb Report event that we did in San Diego. And um, you know, I've known chef Keller for a long time before that. But yeah, so we have golf tournaments and celebrities come and golfers and people can buy foursomes.
Doug Shafer:
Cool.
Cristie Kerr:
And um, we, we just took a year off, we just took a year off because we're trying to find a permanent home for this. And, and it's, it's hard because it's moved around a bit, but, um, I dunno, maybe Napa Valley's is it.
Doug Shafer:
Maybe Napa, you know. (laughs).
Cristie Kerr:
Definitely and Johnny Miller, um, um, you know, I guess when you become successful enough as a professional golfer, people want you to play out of their courses. So, um, you know, I'm, uh, I'm lucky enough to be able to go out to Silverado. So maybe that's it.
Doug Shafer:
There you go. Let me know.
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Just up the road.
Cristie Kerr:
Mm-hmm.
Doug Shafer:
Very cool. Um, so back, so you met Suzanne Pride at Pride vintner Pride Winery. That's that, that's-
Cristie Kerr:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
... how you hooked up with find up someone to help make you, make wine, right?
Cristie Kerr:
Well, my husband knew somebody in a previous life, like, like industry-wise, Um in the, the health and fitness industry. And then this person went to work for like a massive, massive wine … and wine company -
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
... and you know, from 2006 to 2007 and a half, um, we kind of went back and forth as far as what we wanted to do and never saw really eye to eye on the kind of, kind of wine and, and how we wanted to do it. So, um, I kinda took matters into my own hands in 2008 and just wrote emails basically to a bunch of different vintners that I have become friendly with. And, and Pride Mountain Vineyards was, you know, the one that, well, Miner was interested, but, uh, you know, the timing wasn't right-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
... but Dave Miner did raise $25,000 for our breast cancer charity, which is amazing.
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Cristie Kerr:
Um, and um, you know, the Prides were like, when can you come out here? And we were out there five days later going, well, if something works out -
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Cristie Kerr:
... it works out. And if not we'll have a nice couple day holiday in Napa.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
My husband and I. So, um, you know, Tim, we got to meet everybody at Pride. Tim Boucher was a good friend of ours, just the tasting room manager up at Pride and, and if anybody hasn't gone up to Pride or to Shafer, I really implore them to.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Cristie Kerr:
Um, uh, and became very friendly with Suzanne. Got to sit and talk to her about our vision and you know, she tried to dissuade us from, from doing this and you know, after about an hour of telling us why, like we shouldn't do this. It's hard. Nobody, you know, it's hard to succeed, marketing.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
How are you going to sell it, distribution, all this. Um, I told her I wanted to make 150 cases of high end Napa Valley Cabernet and I didn't want to make any money on it. And she was like, "I'm sorry?" (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs). That's great.
Cristie Kerr:
I said, I want to, you know, we were knee-deep in our, our foundation work and I said, I want to give the money away to breast cancer research. So we-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Cristie Kerr:
... we, we, uh, it, it was pretty, pretty amazing story. She was being treated for breast cancer at the same time.
Doug Shafer:
Oh -
Cristie Kerr:
Her father was, had blad- bladder cancer. They would hold hands during treatment and-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Cristie Kerr:
... um, he didn't make it and she did. And you know, she's always been really entrenched with the V Foundation and a lot of other altruistic causes, but she was like, let's do this.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Cristie Kerr:
So we created a grant uh, for research, um, at Stanford hospital and you know, we gave, I think it was $150,000 at least to $200,000-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Cristie Kerr:
... from the profits of curvature over the years. So we, it was cool. She was like, you're either going to get popular, and start another brand one day and leave the nest or we're going to kick you out. (laughs). And lucky, luckily, yeah-
Doug Shafer:
So it’s called - was called, it was called Curvature, right? And still going, Curvature.
Cristie Kerr:
Curvature. It was kind of a play off um, my name, which I, I did not want to name it after myself because I wanted people to see the wine for what it was. And, uh, you know, as you know, having an altruistic, uh, stigma behind the wine, people automatically think it's not going to be good. And then it started to get a lot of accolades. It got served in the White House at a state dinner. We, we, you know, we're starting to show up on lists at the French laundry and-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
... you know, a lot of other restaurants and it became pretty popular and people really got the wine and, um, what it was and, and, um, it was a great Napa Valley cab at a great price for a great cause. And-
Doug Shafer:
And you're still, and you're still making it, right?
Cristie Kerr:
Well, 2000, we just, we talked about doing it for 10 years.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
And um, Suzanne started divesting, um, you know, a little bit of what she was doing at the winery and you know, we started our, our new project, you know, our new brand Kerr Cellars, um, of which we got introduced to Helen Keplinger from Sally Johnson, who's the winemaker up at Pride.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
Um, and, um, you know, we, we did it for whatever, 10, 12 years.
Doug Shafer:
That's fantastic.
Cristie Kerr:
So that's a pretty good run.
Doug Shafer:
That's a great run and, and something you don't know. Oh, maybe you might. Suzanne's husband, Stewart Brian was sales manager here at Shafer back in the gosh or mid-90s I think for four or five years.
Cristie Kerr:
I do know. I do know that.
Doug Shafer:
You do know that okay. So my-
Cristie Kerr:
And I know, I know Stewart very well.
Doug Shafer:
I thought that was going to be a big surprise. Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
Stuart's the driving reason why we make Sauvignon, the driving reason behind why we make a great Sauvignon Blanc right now.
Doug Shafer:
That's true. He's good guy. Good guy. Great.
Cristie Kerr:
Amazing guy.
Doug Shafer:
Great, that's a small world.
Cristie Kerr:
Very small.
Doug Shafer:
So that, that a big success over 10, 12, 14 years and then all of a sudden you got a new brand coming, tell me about that. That was 2012 you start up?
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah, 2012 we met Helen Keplinger-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
...and we had lunch. We talked about, you know, what we were doing with the Prides we talked about possibly because of the success of that wanting to start, you know, a full profit winery- ... um, label. And, um, we just hit it off immediately and uh, looked at each other across the way and said, what do you want to make? Well, what do you want to make?
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Cristie Kerr:
And you know, in 2013, I mean, and she's just, Sally Johnson's amazing. Helen's amazing. I mean, there's so many great people in the Napa Valley. I'm so, I'm, my gut is wrenching for all you guys right now. All the wineries that are so hurting because of this. Um, but, um, you know, Helen and I, the through sourcing and, and what we were able to, to get in the relationships in the great growers, um, because we're negotiants, um, we were able to make an amazing Sauvignon Blanc, which was Sauv Blanc, Muscat, Semillon and in some years we added a little Sauvert.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
Um, uh, basically a single vineyard, uh, Pinot from Sonoma coast-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
Um, from the Ulysses Valdez family. And, um, you know, we made a, you know, there was so many, so many strong Napa Valley cabs and it's getting more and more competitive. We wanted to come out of the box with something different.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm.
Cristie Kerr:
So we decided to make like a Bordeaux style blend, which was straight 50/50 Cab Merlot um, you know, from some, from great sourcing in, in Napa and up on Pritchard Hill. And, um, so we came out with a reserve red wine, a proprietary blend. And, um, out of the box I got 98 points from, from Robert Parker.
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Cristie Kerr:
So I mean, you can't really, yeah-
Doug Shafer:
Good start.
Cristie Kerr:
... you can't really, uh, yeah, it's a great start. It's amazing start.
Doug Shafer:
So you've got the three wines and you've got how, how many cases total?
Cristie Kerr:
Well, that was in 2013.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
Um, and coming up in 2018 when, when all of those get, you know, obviously, um, we're going to be bottling in May for our Bordeaux. Um, we'll have hit about 3,500 case production and we'll have about nine SKU.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
So we'll have our Sauvignon Blanc, we'll have two single vineyard, um, Sonoma coast, um, Chardonnay, one from Rudd vineyard and one from the UV vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
We'll have a Manzanita Pinot, a single vineyard from Sonoma coast. We'll have, um, you know, a straight Appalachian Napa Valley cab. We will have, um, what else do we have? Uh, we'll have three single vineyard Napa Valley cab from, um, from Wappo, from um, um, Georges the third, Beckstoffer's Georges the third.
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Cristie Kerr:
Um, and also from, uh, the Red Hen Vineyard, which is, um, Bart Auraujo's old estate.
Doug Shafer:
Uh-huh.
Cristie Kerr:
Uh, we'll have also a single vineyard, Petit Verdot, um, from Sage Ridge, which is pretty exciting.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. So, okay. I'm, you're in Scottsdale, you're professional golfer, you're married, you've got two kids under six years old. You, your golf career has you traveling all the time. You're making these beautiful wines in Napa Valley with Helen. How do you, (laughs) how do you do, how do you do it and how, and what's, how's it work with you and production and harvest and blending. And how do you, I was curious about that.
Cristie Kerr:
Well, I, you know, honestly, I feel like I juggle a lot of things really well. Um, obviously I'm in the latter years of my golf career, so, you know, wine is starting to become more and more of a focus. Um, you know, I do all, all the blending with Helen. We, we blend probably four or five times a year. Um, you know, I've got an amazing team around us. Um, Matthew Lane who's Napa based, who is our global sales director and EVP.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
The director of operations Abby Diviak, Chaela Ciongoli used to live in Napa is now in San Diego. Um, Kelly Keeney, who's our, also a professional golfer two time amatuer champion and tour champion is our director of events and she lives in Dallas.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
So we, we have a lot of support. And my husband's the president, my husband, Eric is, Eric Stevens is the president of the company. So I have a lot of support around me so that when I'm playing, I'm able to focus on my playing-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
... and when it's time to go and take the hour and a half flight to Napa, we go.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Cristie Kerr:
So, um, you know, I try to get up there as much as possible. Um, you know, I mean obviously-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
... with COVID, who knows what's going to happen. Thank God it's not in the peak of harvest.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.
Cristie Kerr:
Um, but Helen, we rely a ton on Helen and Helen's a rock star.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, she, yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
She, she helps us with everything, all our sourcing and um, you know, we have a great label company and MCC and in Scott Ritter over there. So we've got a great team.
Doug Shafer:
Good. It sounds like it, well Helen's great. She was on here a few months ago on the, on sat down with me and it was really good to get to know her and hear her story. Fascinating. But uh, and she makes really good wine.
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah, and she is, she makes really good wine and she is, she's very meticulous and persnickety like I am. And um, I've learned a ton from her. Every time I sit down and I try not to interject too much because she really is the, you know, one of the Dalai Lama's of wine. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
There you go. Um, and you mentioned Eric, your husband. How'd you guys meet?
Cristie Kerr:
He, um, was my agent-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
... believe it or not, I was actually engaged to somebody else when I first met him.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Cristie Kerr:
Um, and this person, that's a whole nother ball of wax. Um, nothing nefarious happened.
Doug Shafer:
That's okay.
Cristie Kerr:
Um, I was in, I was engaged to somebody in the Marine Corps and, um, we were two months away from our wedding and then September 11th happened and-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
... he was going to be deployed. And I was like, I don't know if I can do this.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
... I'm sorry if we're meant to be, well we're meant to be. And we weren't. Uh, and Eric helped me through the whole thing. And then, you know, about a year later we got together and the rest is history.
Doug Shafer:
So he was, he was your agent. Does he play golf?
Cristie Kerr:
He likes to play golf. He um-
Doug Shafer:
You guys, have you guys ever played together? How's that work? (laughs).
Cristie Kerr:
Eeeh, (laughs) he likes to play and, uh, we're, you know, it's, it's fun to, uh, to be out there with the fours and with my husband, he has a hockey slapshot golf swing because he almost played professional hockey. He was an athlete as well.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) oh, cool.
Cristie Kerr:
And, and that's one of the reasons why he got in the, uh, the sports marketing business. And, um, but my husband's got a whole nother background. He used to train like really famous people and then he helped build Chelsea Piers in New York and Floyd Bennett field out in Brooklyn.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Cristie Kerr:
And so he's got a very business background.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. And you've got two-
Cristie Kerr:
So we make a good team.
Doug Shafer:
You do, and you've got two, two little boys, two and six, is that what their ages are?
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah. Yup. Mason is six and Griffin is a year and a half.
Doug Shafer:
And uh, I don't know what sports they're going to be playing, but they're going to be really good. I just know it. I can tell. (laughs).
Cristie Kerr:
Maybe, I don't know. I think Mason will be the brainiac, uh, academic one and Griffin's already throwing a ball. So who knows. But I'll expose them to things.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Cristie Kerr:
I don't want to push too much just because I know how hard this lifestyle is and I want them to do what they truly want to do. I, and you know what's, what's crazy is every time we're drinking wine, Griffin wants to stick his hand in there and we're like, no, no, no. And he's like moving wine boxes around and he's one and a half. So maybe he'll run a company someday. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
That's wild. Um, and you mentioned earlier about the, the somm test you pass level one, the quartermaster somms.
Cristie Kerr:
Yes, I passed it about a little over two years ago-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
... and um, you know, I've been meaning to do the certified specialist of wine, but uh, with, you know, whatever, three different businesses and kids that everything gets really busy. But um, w- WSET right now is kind of in my sites.
Doug Shafer:
Right, cool.
Cristie Kerr:
Um, I kind of want to just, kind of do it all. I don't know, maybe I'm insane. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Well, no, that's, that's a big one to take on, but you know-
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... with what you're doing, it seems like it's no, no big deal. You're just, just got to-
Cristie Kerr:
No, no, its, I mean. Everything's real busy. You just got to find a time to be able to do it all. And I feel like I never went to college and maybe this is the wine education stuff is kind of my college.
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Cristie Kerr:
Cause I always really liked learning.
Doug Shafer:
Well yeah, you just keep learning forever. Yeah. I, I actually would like to go back to college and do it again. I want to take art history, I want to take history, I want to, you know, music appreciation, everything. And stuff I never got to take.
Cristie Kerr:
I mean I think that's, yeah. I think if you really, if you really like learning, I feel like you people would be really apt for the wine business because you, you, there's a lot of like big things to learn, but there's a lot of little really finessing, minutia things about wine making that now people can learn. I'm, I'm very fortunate. I'm very happy I'm not the wine maker. (laughs) I help with branding and blending and things that I know I can do well. But I mean, what you guys do is, is just amazing.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. But see, I feel the same way about you. (laughs) Um, so tell me about that. Professional golf, the wine business, parallels differences, one's a break from the other or are they same? Are they similar?
Cristie Kerr:
Um, I think it's everything.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Cristie Kerr:
Honestly. There are a lot of parallels, um, with how you do things to become successful and do things the right way, tend to things the right way.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm.
Cristie Kerr:
Get a good product or a good score. Um, you know, there's a lot of differences as well. I mean, um, golf's very much in my control and the wine business is very much not in my control. It's in the hands of the consumer. It's in the hands of the distributor ships. It's, it's, um in the hands of the people rating your wines. Um, you know, so there's a lot of differences, um, but a lot of parallels as well.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, interesting. I was thinking about that. It's golf, it's all, it's all you. It's, it's, is it, I always thought that golf is not a team sport, but it probably is. You probably got good support with uh, trainers-
Cristie Kerr:
Yes, with, well-
Doug Shafer:
... and coaches and that type of thing.
Cristie Kerr:
... used to be trainers, (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Okay. (laughs).
Cristie Kerr:
Used to be trainers with it gotten busy. Some things that fall by the wayside.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
Um, but, um, um, yeah, trainer, you know, um, got to get back into that part. But, um, you know, uh, mental coach, um, golf coach, um, you know, whatever it may be, whether it's the LPGA or, you know, everybody's there to support you and help you do your best.
Doug Shafer:
That's cool. Um, I was reading up on you, I came across something in 2019 a scotch whiskey partnership. Tell me about that. Well, (laughs) it's amazing what I can find out.
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, learning to become a somm, you learn about a lot more than just making wine.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
You learn about scotch, you learn about Sake, you learn about beer, you learned about a lot of other things.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah, off course.
Cristie Kerr:
Um, and I got the opportunity when I was at the Scottish open to go visit, um, Loch Lomond distillery, um, which you know, is in Loch Lomond. It was a two hour drive each way and you know, the tournament said, Hey, you want to go and help, you know, cause they're a partner in the tournament to some PR and, and you know, you'll get a tour of the distillery and get to taste some scotch and yada yada yada.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
And one in Scotland, when in Rome, you go do it. And uh, it was just really interesting to see all of the, the little finite stuff that they do to make their scotch. And it's a lot higher alcohol. So there's, you have to have that certain palate, like their master blender has to be almost immune to the alcohol to be able to, to blend down-
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Cristie Kerr:
... you know, for the 10, 12, 15 different kinds of Scotch that they make. And um, we got very friendly with Colin who is the owner of, of, of Loch Lomand and he was just happened to be there by happenstance that day. And we got to meet him. And I just started asking him questions about the solar system they use for aging and you know-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
... the different, um, pot stills and different, you know, the different kind of stills they have and you know, the different strain of yeast they use for fermentation. And, um, it just got really interesting. And then we went and tasted the different scotch and, um, they make an amazing product and we struck up a friendship. And you know, about a year later, they're like, we're doing a scotch with two PGA tour players, a senior tour player, um, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
... um, and a PGA tour player. So Darren Clark and Colin, Colin Montgomery, and we would love to do one with, with you as well. And we came up with this idea that we were going to do a 16 year single malt scotch and we were going to ship our Pinot Noir barrels.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
Cristie Kerr:
... (laughs) over there to age, you know, for the last 10 months of its life cycle, life cycle. And it, it got re-
Doug Shafer:
That's fun.
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah, it got released in Asia, 2000 bottles and now 2000 bottles in US which the Stoli group, um, controls. And, uh, you know, we help sell and um, it got 94 points by one, uh Whiskey Advocate. So-
Doug Shafer:
Look at you, look at you. Well why? Look at you. (laughs).
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah, yeah, just, I didn't make it, I just gave them the barrels but I, I did help to taste and stuff and it's, that's a whole nother ball of wax. But it was very interesting and a really cool experience. And now we're trying to figure out how to sell it in, in the US.
Doug Shafer:
You know-
Cristie Kerr:
Because we're, we're partners with that brand. It's not our brand. So we're partners with, with Loch Lomond.
Doug Shafer:
That's cool. I uh, in listening to your story, I had a flashback because again, I think I was doing, I was doing a winemaker dinner up in Scotland, I don't know when, it must have been 20 years ago. And it was a good group, 30, 20, 30 people.
Doug Shafer:
I got along, we had a, it was one of those nights where it just clicks and everybody's having a good time. And so when it was all done and instead of taken off, I ended up hanging out with these three or four couples and they were saying, you know, Hey, you know, you know much about scotch. I said, you know, I don't know a thing. I've never been a scotch guy. And they said, and they have these three, three or four guys, look, they each, I said, well, let's take care of this man. But I mean in a good way.
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But they, they got four or five different types of scotch with a pitcher of water and they, you know, they gave me a whole education and it was-
Cristie Kerr:
That'll get ugly real fast. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Well, no, no, we were good. We were good. But uh, yeah, it could, (laughs) it could have gotten ugly, but it was fascinating. It was just this great night, you know, in a cold wintery night in Scotland and drinking scotch.
Cristie Kerr:
I mean, it's just so different. I mean, there are, are so many different types of scotch and I've done obviously bourbon in the States and depending on where it's made-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
... the style in which you make it, I mean, obviously Highland and lowland style and Scotland are very different, but whether it's, you know, a Madeira cask or a Sherry cask or you know, a triple wood cask or you know, a Pinot Noir barrel-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
... like wine barrels are becoming more and more heavily sought after because of the qualities that they can instill in the scotch. So, um, it's, it's all really interesting.
Doug Shafer:
Well, it's, it's, that's what's fun about and that, and adding wine and the whole thing. Tell me about your tastes. You start, you've been enjoying wine for years and years and years have, has your palate changed? Did, did you start with certain varietals and moved to new ones or is it still pretty much a California palate, Napa palate?
Cristie Kerr:
Um, my palette's all over the place right now. I mean, I, I still love the amazing, you know, Napa Valley big Cabernet, elegant, like layered, textured Cabernets. I love the Red blends from California. Um, obviously the Chardonnays, um, you know, I mean, all different wines. I mean, I'm, you know, since studying to become a somm, like I've really dove into France and Spain and Australia-
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Cristie Kerr:
... and Austria and Switzerland. You know, when I was in Switzerland, I, you know, I went and did tastings and ... um, you know, I've been able to taste in the Willamette Valley, um, in the Barossa, in Adelaide Hills, in, um, you know, I went to Burgundy. Uh, you know, I've been all over the place now and, and I, you know, there's definitely things I prefer to drink, but I am sort of a Libra. Like, I never really settle and make a decision on anything. Like, I, I like to try a lot of different things and, and obviously studying to become a somm, one of the big things is food and wine pairing. So I'm always trying to find the, you know, the right pairings for things.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
And, um, there's so many wines, so little time, like, I'm gonna make a tee shirt someday that says that. (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Um, question for you. I was thinking about you. Well, I, I think I know the answer. I was going to say, what do you do for fun other than golf? Or actually maybe golf's not fun, uh, along with that, do you ever like take a golf vacation? I'm thinking probably, I don't know.
Cristie Kerr:
We have, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
... well, not, not in a while, but not in a while-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah you got a couple of little kids.
Cristie Kerr:
... but um, for my husband's 40th. Yeah. Yeah. We haven't, since they've been born, we haven't taken more-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Cristie Kerr:
... than a two day. You know, one of my, even one of my sponsors is MGM and -
Doug Shafer:
That'll change, that'll change, I promise you that'll change, you'll uh, -
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah, two and a half hour drive from, from, uh, from Scottsdale. We've only taken basically like two or three days here or there over the years. But, um, yeah, I mean, no, I mean, I, I do a lot of things for fun. Uh, obviously learning about wine for me is, is kind of an obsession-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
... now as, as people can imagine when you start learning about it. And one of my friends, Danny Holmquist on the tour. Um, you guys were, were, you know, then you guys sent her some wine and now she's, you know, studying for her level three WSET and, um, you know, I've, you know, I started tasting group on tour that-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, fun.
Cristie Kerr:
... we go to dinner periodically and do different things and, um, it's, it's pretty cool. Um, obviously wine, um, you know, I like being outdoors, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
... like hiking and biking stuff in Scottsdale. Um doing stuff with my kids. Um, I'm kind of obsessed with cleaning right now. I don't know if that's everybody that's in quarantine.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) yeah, you mentioned that before. I love it.
Cristie Kerr:
I literally have-
Doug Shafer:
You're obsessed with it, you, you keep talking about it, I like it.
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah, I literally, I mean, I see, I'm looking, I'm sitting in a room right now that's like the room where the crib is, so it's quiet and there's like a smudge in the window and I'm staring at it. (laughs) I have to clean this.
Doug Shafer:
All right. We gotta get you out of the house, um.
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah, no kidding. No kidding.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Oh, we're all, you know, and you know, we all have up days and down days it's, uh, it's really funny. I, my daughter called me yesterday and she's, she lives here in Napa. She's got a couple little kids about the same age as yours and uh, but you know, she was just having an off day and so was I. And so we just kind of lamented and then she called this morning, she goes, I'm having a better day. I said, me too. So it's, you know, day to day for everybody out here.
Cristie Kerr:
Yeah. And you, you talk about the similarities between wine making and golf, like getting outside, getting your hands on the club, like doing something-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Cristie Kerr:
... is very soul satisfying. And so whether it's you guys going, you know, for first bud break or you're pruning or whatever you're doing, like just doing something, feeling accomplished, feeling like you accomplished something in your respective field. Like that's very satisfying right now. And everybody, whether it's completing a quiz on the internet or reading a book or doing something right now, like people just have to find things to do.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. You just have to. So, so we're doing it. So what's going on with Kerr Cellars in the future? Any, any new, well, you've got nine different SKUs, but anything else coming up in the works?
Cristie Kerr:
Well, we're doing a really cool wine for the Fairmont, Grand Del Mar in San Diego.
Doug Shafer:
Cool.
Cristie Kerr:
Um, a Lagrand, a Sauvignon Blanc and Cab for them. Um, we're hoping, we're hoping, hoping to be able to open a tasting room in the next 12 months.
Doug Shafer:
Oh neat.
Cristie Kerr:
Um, yeah, in Napa. So whether it's Napa or, or, or Yountville, St. Helena, we're looking at all of that because, you know, obviously, you know, rents are high and you know, spaces are big and we're a little brand, so we're trying to find the right, you know, the right home.
Doug Shafer:
I was gonna ask you about that cause your, your style, your wines are, uh, custom crushed. Where you guys, where do you guys make your wines at?
Cristie Kerr:
We make our wine at a Cuvaison.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
We're a custom crush, crushed within, within that house. And, um, um, obviously we, we work out of Copper Peak and, and-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
... different, uh, different, uh, uh, places that help with our wine shipping and club and stuff. Uh, but we have a wine club kerrcellars.com.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Cristie Kerr:
And uh, you know, our membership is growing and, uh, you know, we're going to be launching a new website at the end of the year. So all very exciting things.
Doug Shafer:
Good. So if, if people want to buy your wines, website's the best place. Is it?
Cristie Kerr:
Yup. kerrcellars.com
Doug Shafer:
Kerrsellers.com. Cool. So everybody, everybody get out there and check out that wine cause you're home and you can do it. (laughs).
Cristie Kerr:
Yes, that's right. And we're, we're running great specials right now and um, you know, we're very much a direct to consumer brand and um, you know, we wanna, we wanna do things with excellence and we always want to over-deliver on the quality of our wine for the price.
Doug Shafer:
Super. Super. Christie, thank you so much for taking the time today. Really appreciate it.
Cristie Kerr:
Really enjoyed being on in the conversation. Thank you so much.
Doug Shafer:
And uh, next time you're in the Valley would just give me a buzz, shoot me an email so we'll get together, have a glass of wine, a cup of coffee, something. I know you're busy out here, but I'd love to, love to say, hey for a second.
Cristie Kerr:
There's always time for wine.
Doug Shafer:
There you go. All right. Good luck to you. Be good.
Cristie Kerr:
Thanks. You too.
Doug Shafer:
See ya. Bye bye.
Cristie Kerr:
See ya.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Hey, everybody, welcome back to another episode of The Taste. This is Doug Shafer, and, uh, I'm going to mention today's date, just because we're in some crazy times, it's Wednesday, April 15th, 2020.
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, our guest today is probably one of the most fascinating people we've had on this podcast. Laura Catena is, um, an emergency room doctor. She's author of two books, graduated Harvard, graduated Stanford, married, three kids. And on top of that manages her family's beautifully, wonderfully, big business in Argentina, and she lives in San Francisco. And I'm guessing she doesn't sleep much. Laura, welcome to the show.
Laura Catena:
Hi, Doug. Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Laura Catena:
Uh, I have, I have to make, uh, first correction is that I do sleep well.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Oh, okay.
Laura Catena:
Because as a doctor, you know, I've looked at the literature about sleep and basically, uh, sleep, not sleeping well is a source of all evil, you know, more cardiovascular disease, more strokes, more cancer. So, I actually make, uh, an important, uh, point to sleeping well.
Doug Shafer:
You know I'm glad you mentioned that, because my wife's been telling me that same thing for, uh, all our marriage, and especially the last-
Laura Catena:
(laughs).
Doug Shafer:
... the last few months, um, you know, especially on top of everything, um, it's like what can we do to help ourselves out, besides social-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... distance and wash our hands, but, you know, get enough sleep, get seven or eight hours-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... if you can.
Laura Catena:
Absolutely. Yeah, if you can get seven hours, uh, it really increases your chances of, of living a, a good long life, uh, almost more than anything else, you know, that and getting some exercise, and eating relatively well, and drinking wine in moderation, of course.
Doug Shafer:
Right, it's that moderation thing, I have trouble with sometimes, (laughs).
Laura Catena:
(laughs) Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But, uh, so right now you got, you and family you're, uh, in San Francisco, correct?
Laura Catena:
Yeah, so I, I usually say that I live, uh, in both places. I, I, I'm, I've got the, the two places, I'm either in Mendoza or I'm here in San Francisco, and, you know, when I go there, I just go with my backpack, I've got my clothes there.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
Uh, the kitchen and, and I live with my dad when I'm there, which is super fun. I bring my kids and they hang out with him, and then here I live with my husband and, and my kids, and, and I really feel like I live in both places.
Doug Shafer:
It's, uh, but right now that can't happen, you're, you're stuck here, have you been-
Laura Catena:
No-
Doug Shafer:
... have you been home?
Laura Catena:
... in, in, no, no, in fact, uh, I, uh, I went to Argentina the beginning of the harvest in, in, in February-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
... and then I, I left to go to, ProWein, you know, the big, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
... wine fair in Germany. And then, that was canceled and I was going to go back to Argentina and they, uh, did not want anybody from, uh, you know, the U.S. to go back to Argentina because at that moment, and still now, the situation with COVID is worse in the United States than in Argentina.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I was, I was scheduled to go to ProWein, too, it's this big German wine trade show.
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
International show. It's a great show, but, uh-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... that was canceled, as it should have been. ... but, uh, so how, you know, as a ... It's wonderful, you know, you already told us a little bit about, um, getting enough sleep and I know this is kind of a wine thing, and all that, but, um, as a physician, your whole view of this COVID situation and the virus, and, and what's going on right now, any particular views you have on what's going on? Or you feel good about, agree with what we're doing?
Laura Catena:
Um, well, you know, I can tell you that I have, in my whole professional career, and you know, I started medical school in 1988, uh, when I graduated from college. So I've been a doctor for a very long time. And I have never seen anything like this. Uh, however, I have seen a lot of epidemics go through of many kinds, you know. When I started, uh, my career, it was the time of the AIDS epidemic.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
And, and that was a real shock, uh, for all of us doctors. In fact, I had seriously considered studied infectious diseases, and then, I'm just too hyper, uh, so I chose the emergency department because I could run around.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
Uh, but, but that was a, a big interest. And I actually ended up getting tuberculosis as a resident.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Laura Catena:
Uh, when I was a resident in emergency medicine, um, there was a lot of tuberculosis because a lot of the patients with AIDS, who didn't have medications at the beginning, you know, there were, there were a few medications, but nothing really worked.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
So they would have, um, you know, other, uh, illnesses, and one of them was tuberculosis. And a lot of us, uh, ended up, um, converting to PTB positive and me and a few others, we actually had active tuberculosis, so I had to take medication. I have to be isolated. And, uh, you know, and there's a little piece of my lung missing.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.
Laura Catena:
And, um, you know, and that was, you know, as a doctor, you kind of think of this as, you know, part of the job. I mean, dying from it, that's extreme, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
It's, it's not that common that doctors or nurses or people who work in hospitals, uh, you know, get something that they end up dying from. But in terms of this particular illness, uh, the COVID-19, you know, it's unprecedented. I've never seen anything like it. I do think that it will last quite a while.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
And, I do think it will overwhelm hospitals, not just for a few months, but, uh, for some time, because it's, uh, predicted that most likely it will come back in the fall. I think that social distancing will have to continue. And I also think that people who are at risk, people of a certain age, people with, um, previous medical conditions will have to be extremely cautious-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
... will have to not go out, uh, or maybe work from home, or really, you know, wear a mask, wear gloves, uh, be very careful. Uh, but I think eventually there will be, uh, treatment, you know, anti-virals-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
... as well as a vaccine. I mean, I think the whole world scientific community is working on this in an unprecedented way. So I, I am very confident that there will be a fix to this at some point.
Doug Shafer:
That's good to hear. I appreciate that. Um, my brother works in the medical field in, uh, a company that produces drugs. And, um, he sent me a summary of, of what's going on around the world. Like it's 30 different companies, worldwide, you know.
Laura Catena:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
This one in, this one in Dublin is working on this type of thing. This one in-
Laura Catena:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
... uh, Berlin, they're working on this, this aspect. So, it was very comforting, um, to see that these top, top think tanks, companies, research facilities are cranking. And, and he said everybody's working on all this stuff-
Laura Catena:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
... right now. So, you know, makes you feel a little better, and gives us all some hope. So, we will get through-
Laura Catena:
Absolutely.
Doug Shafer:
... it. And, um, it'll be changes for a while, but we'll figure it out. Just like, you know, doing a podcast from San Francisco to Napa.
Laura Catena:
(laughing)
Doug Shafer:
Now, you know, and we look at the silver lining. So now I can, instead of, um, you know, meeting some Italian winemaker in New York at the Wine Experience, I can just get him on the phone, in the middle of the night, and do a podcast with him.
Laura Catena:
Well, I do, I do think that in terms of the sustainability of all this travel that we do, to do wine tastings, and, and other people who, um, have to travel around to meet, uh, their suppliers, their customers-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
... I think that, uh, a lot of these, you know, Zoom wine tasting, Instagram live tastings, I think that some of this travel could, uh, pass to online travel, you know, virtual travel.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
And that would be better for the environment, because there would be, you know, a little less maybe airplane travel for business, but more for fun.
Doug Shafer:
Exactly. So that'll help the, uh, the whole global warming thing. So-
Laura Catena:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
... we've got to look for silver linings. And we will continue, the two of us, and-
Laura Catena:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
... and everyone else. So, let's, let's get to your story. Now you guys go way back. Your, your family story starts in Italy, is that right?
Laura Catena:
Yeah, so my great grandfather, his name was Nicola Catena.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
I gave his name to my daughter. Her name is, uh, Nicola.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
And he, uh, came from Le Marche to Argentina. He was the fifth son of an Italian family. And, uh, he, uh, lived in Italy and they had a small farm. They had some grapes. They made their own wine. They were farmers. He was the fifth son, so the fifth son usually didn't get anything.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
Uh, you know, so he said, "I'm going to try my luck in Argentina." And so, he got on a boat. He was 18 years old.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Laura Catena:
And he came to Argentina and he planted his, uh, first vineyard four years later, after working, you know, wherever he could. And he planted his first Malbec in 1902.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. So was Malbec a grape in Argentina? Do they bring it from Italy. Where, where'd that come from, the whole Malbec plant?
Laura Catena:
So, you know, there was a huge immigration to Argentina, uh, from Europe at the end of the 19th and early 20th century.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
You know, one of these immigrants was my great grandfather. And it was actually more Italian even than Spanish, but it was mostly Europeans from everywhere. There were also some people from Armenia, people from Russia, uh, you know, all parts of Europe who came to Argentina, uh, you know, looking for a better life.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
And, there were also some, some people from England, from Wales, you know, we had all the railroads established by the British, so we actually have a lot of, uh, British immigrants to Argentina, you know. Some of them also went to Patagonia. The Welsh to farm with sheep, they had, the, Argentina was a big producer of, um, of wool-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
... at that time. And, uh, so a lot of Italians, more Italians than Spanish, so that 70% of the Argentine population has Italian heritage.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Laura Catena:
And so you think about during the, the independence from Spain, there were 500,000 people in Argentina during this big immigration, six million Europeans came. So, uh, you know, a lot of, uh, Argentines are you know the grandkids or great grandkids of immigrants, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). There you go. Okay.
Laura Catena:
They brought Italian varieties, French varieties. But nobody really knows why did Malbec become so important in Argentina. Because by the time my, uh, grandfather, my great grandfather arrived, there was already a lot of Malbec planted and it was already considered sort of the, you know, the grape to make a high quality wine. And I think the reason is simply that Malbec, uh, did well in Argentina. Because it likes the sunlight, it doesn't like a weather that's too hot. And you know, um, in Argentina you have some very warm areas, but you also have the, the cooler areas in the Uco Valley, uh, the Lujan Nicasia the clay soils. And, uh, the Malbec just does well in Argentina. You know, you can plant Cabernet Sauvignon only in some areas. Pinot Noir, I don't know, Syrah-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
... you know, there's many varieties planted. But Malbec will make a delicious wine almost anywhere, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Laura Catena:
... it'll make more class wines that can be aged and, you know, hundred point wine, in only some places, you know, those are really special places. But that pretty much anywhere you plant it, it will be a delicious wine.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
And I think that it was mostly that it just did well. And so that's why it was so widely planted. And that was, uh, you know, when my, my great grandfather arrived, um, I don't think that much was known about Malbec, but that's what he decided to plant.
Doug Shafer:
So he decided to plant. So the business, so he was a grape grower. Was he making wine, also?
Laura Catena:
So when he started, uh, he planted Malbec. He also really liked Bonarda.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
Which it turns out, it's charbono. But when the Italians came, they thought the taste was very similar to Italian Bonarda, which would always get confused with Dolcetto. And, uh, they thought it was Italian Bonarda. And they were quite happy because they were Italian and they wanted something Italian to plant. So, along with Malbec, there was a lot of Bonarda planted, which is actually the same as Charbono. But, Charbono is Charbono de Savoie, and Savoie was Italian until the 19th century, when it became French.
Laura Catena:
So you could see that it's a sort of-
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
... you know, Italian grape as well. So, he liked both varieties.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
Um, and, uh, he planted both. We, we actually make a, a very, uh, good Bonarda that's sold, uh, mostly in Latin America and Argentina named after him, Nicola Catena Bonarda.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
But, uh, but, uh, Malbec is, is probably more what we're about to talk about, uh, today, because it's really kind of the variety that's made my country famous, my, my family well-known. So he started as a grape grower. He had many vineyards and my, uh, he actually went ... I'll tell you a funny story. So when he, uh, died, um, or actually no, in life, he was very proud to say, uh, that he had left, uh, a winery and a vineyard to each one of his sons. And there was this, this great picture- ... of him and his wife, uh, Anna Moschetta de Catena, with the three daughters and the three sons. And I remember once asking my father to tell me about this photo, when it was taken. And he say, yeah, he, he was proud to have left the winery and the vineyard to his three sons. And I said, "Well, what did he leave for his daughters?"
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
And he said, and he, my father said, "Well, he was very proud to have found a good husband for each one of them."
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
And I said, "Okay, Dad, uh, that's not going to work for me, because I found my own husband. I want a winery and a vineyard, too."
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
You know, and, and, and it was kind of-
Doug Shafer:
But that was your great ... That was your great grandfather. That was his-
Laura Catena:
That was my great grandfather-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Laura Catena:
... but, but those were the days.
Doug Shafer:
Uh-huh.
Laura Catena:
That's, that's ... The best thing you could do for your daughter was to, to make sure she, she married a good man.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
I, I think, I think you could argue that, that if you can help your kids, which is arguable, to ... The, the, the, the men to meet a great woman and the woman to meet a great man, that, that, that is a great service, if you can help out in any way. Although I think that mostly you can help out by staying out of it.
Doug Shafer:
Stay out. Trust me on that one. Yes. Staying out of it is the best way to go.
Laura Catena:
(laughing)
Doug Shafer:
That's been successful for me. Um-
Laura Catena:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... that's exciting. So, so, he had ... So your great grandparents had six kids, three boys, three girls. Obviously one of the boys, who was your father.
Laura Catena:
Uh, so no, so one of the boys was my grandfather.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
Domingo-
Doug Shafer:
I mean your grandfather.
Laura Catena:
So one of the boys was and my great grandfather
Doug Shafer:
That's right. That's right.
Laura Catena:
And, and he was the oldest son, because it was the always the oldest son to the oldest son.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Right.
Laura Catena:
The oldest son. Uh, and then he, um, you know, kind of brought his siblings out and, and, and, you know, he was the most successful of, of them, you know. Uh, I mean, Argentina, uh, you know one thing to say about Argentina is we are resilient and we're used to things going badly. And you know, even with the coronavirus, it's, you know, it's a big hardship. People are very scared, but you know, we've been through so many bad things with the economy. I mean, we had 1,000% inflation at one point, you know. We've had a, a week where we had, uh, five presidents.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Laura Catena:
We've had military governments. Uh, we've had so many things happen, uh, and you know, at the revolution where, you know, it was one to one. The dollar and the peso was one to one. Then, you know, the next week, it was one to five. Uh, you know, now it's-
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Laura Catena:
... one to 60.
Doug Shafer:
I, I know-
Laura Catena:
Uh-
Doug Shafer:
... I was going to ask you about that a little later. I mean, you've just ... It's like I hear this and anyone knows about Argentina a little bit. It's like, you know, some really challenging, challenging years over the last-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... century. And-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... and, uh, and here you've, you're family has this wonderful successful business. How do you, um, navigate? How do you manage when, when you have three or four presidents in the span of a week and, and-
Laura Catena:
You know-
Doug Shafer:
... wild inflation and all these things, and, um, you know, military this and that. I mean-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... the, the unknown. I mean, we're all living with this unknown right now.
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, and you know-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
How do you guys do it?
Laura Catena:
You know, my dad and I, uh, we always say that we kind of get invigorated by bad times, which is, it was just a horrible thing to say. But, you know, uh, and I think that, that might be a little bit of why I decided to study medicine, because I like hard things. I want to fix hard problems. And you know, our winemaker, Alejandro Vigil, our head winemaker, he's kind of the same way, you know. The harder things are, the harder he works.
Laura Catena:
And Argentine people as a whole are, are used to working through harsh ... I mean, I think all people have hardship, uh, you know, uh, I mean, right now-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Laura Catena:
... the whole world is having hardship. And, uh, and I ... But I think that Argentines are particularly resilient, because, uh, you know, so many things have happened. And then so continuing with the family story.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
Then my, my grandfather, uh, started to run the business and he planted more vineyards. He built several wineries. But he actually was mostly selling his wine and they would send it in these big, uh, barrels, uh, to Buenos Aires-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
... in the train, uh, where they would be bottled by separate people. It was almost like the French negociant model of the 19th century.
Doug Shafer:
Right. That's-
Laura Catena:
Where, you know, the chateaus would make the wine and then somebody else would bottle and sell it.
Doug Shafer:
Right. And sometimes-
Laura Catena:
And, uh-
Doug Shafer:
... the same wines came bottled in four or five different places. Yeah.
Laura Catena:
Exactly. And, and my grandfather was actually known because he made the best blends. And he had this blend called Tinto Buenos Aires, that mean, that means Buenos Aires Red. And it was, you know, the, the high end wine at all the fancy restaurants in Buenos Aires. But then my father came along and he said, "Hey, I'm tired of, of having somebody else sell all the wine" and do all the, the, you know ... the, the selling. We need to do that. And so, my dad actually, uh, was the one who really moved to, you know, make your own wine, selling all wines, uh, selling it inside Argentina. Uh, but you know, we had a huge domestic market because, uh, you know, Argentines are all descendants of Italian, Spanish, primarily, French. Uh, and you know, what did those people drink with lunch and dinner? Wine. And, you know, when I was a kid in Argentina, people had wine with lunch and dinner every day-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
... in moderation, you know. But, but that was ... It is our national beverage. So, when we-
Doug Shafer:
So you were selling, you're selling at that point in time, you're selling most of your wine domestically in Argentina?
Laura Catena:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
But we did have, uh, we did have a, some high end wines that we sold that were collected, but it was really mostly in Argentina. And then, uh, you know, it was actually my father leaving Argentina, uh, that, that inspired him to, to, to start the exports. And, when, when he ... He actually left during the military government in the early 80s, my uncle was actually kidnapped.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, man.
Laura Catena:
And my, my father had to negotiate the release. You know, he was kept in a closet for a week and it was horrible.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Laura Catena:
And my, my father was worried about our whole family. And so he left Argentina and, um, and so, so going ... Go ahead, go ahead.
Doug Shafer:
Was he at the, was he at the, was he at the winery then? Was he working at the winery, your dad?
Laura Catena:
Yes. So he was working-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Laura Catena:
... at the winery. He was going back and forth between Buenos Aires, where the sales were-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
... and Mendoza, like my dad basically, you know, lives in two places, except for him it's Buenos Aires/Mendoza. For me, it's San Francisco-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Laura Catena:
... Mendoza. And, um, and-
Doug Shafer:
So I wondered, so he ... Because I read that he came to California in the 80s, your dad.
Laura Catena:
Yeah, well, so actually my dad's history with the U.S. dates back a little further.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
So, when my dad was a student, his mother was the headmaster of the local little country school. She wanted everybody to, to have an education. And she had told my father, "I hope you're not going to go work with your dad in the, the winery business, you know, you need to be an academic."
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
And, uh, you know, my dad was a very studious kid. He, he was very ... He's really smart person and, and just a very open mind. And, you know, he was the top student. And he actually wanted to study, uh, physics or chemistry.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
And, you know, had no plans to work with his dad. Kind of like me, not that I ever ... I don't think I'm as smart as he is, but I also had no intention of working in the family winery when I was, you know, growing up.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Laura Catena:
And he had planned to go to the U.S. to study.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
And, then his mother sadly died in a car accident, with his grandfather, uh, very, very sad story. Uh, and so, all of a sudden, my grandfather is left with no wife, no father, you know, who worked with him-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
... at their winery, and my dad's in school. Uh, actually, he's, he's in, uh, his last year of high school. And, with these plans to go study abroad, because, uh, you know, he was such a good student, he would certainly be offered a scholarship-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Laura Catena:
... somewhere in the U.S., uh, where he wanted to go, you know, with all the, all these Nobel Prizes and that, that was his dream. And so he basically had to stay because his father went into depression-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
... you know, with what happened, and so he ended up, uh, deciding to study economics because it was what he could study locally, that was at a good level, helping his father. So he started, you know, kind of working and going to school. Um, he finishes economics, but then the business was somewhat stable and he, um, he decided to go to study in the U.S.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
And he decided to go to Columbia, where he was accepted in economics, uh, because he would be able to fly to Argentina. And so, that's, that's when I actually, uh, went to New York when I was two years old with my brother, my mom and my dad. And that was his first entry into the U.S. And the reason he also studied economic and why he wanted to study, uh, in the U.S. was that he wanted to fix the Argentine economy, you know. My dad was determined, yes, he wanted to make wine. He needed to feed his family, but he wanted to help Argentina because as we all know, Argentina is a country of riches. You know, we have all these port entries, you know, through rivers. We have, you know, metals. We have farming. We have, uh, oil. Uh, we have incredibly motivated smart people.
Laura Catena:
And, and everybody in the world is always asking themselves, why is this country such a mess?
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
(laughing) When we have all these riches.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
And so my father was determined to help Argentina. So we go to the U.S., then we come back, then he continues, uh, to work with his dad in, in the winery. He actually founded a university-
Doug Shafer:
Ahhh.
Laura Catena:
... in Argentina.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Laura Catena:
But then comes the military government. So then up again-
Doug Shafer:
That was, that was around what year was that?
Laura Catena:
So he-
Doug Shafer:
Into the 70s.
Laura Catena:
... went to Columbia in the early 70s.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
Then he came back, uh, because he had to come back. His dad needed him.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
Then, then it's the military government. He goes back to California. And that's where he, uh, with my mom, they're living in Berkeley, because he was a visiting scholar at Berkeley. And I was going to high school there. That's how, um, I learned English-
Doug Shafer:
Ahhh.
Laura Catena:
... relatively well. Because I didn't speak English that well before.
Doug Shafer:
So you were in-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... high school in Berkeley. Okay.
Laura Catena:
Yeah. Yeah. So my dad actually had to teach himself English before going to Columbia.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Laura Catena:
Which is very admirable, I think.
Doug Shafer:
He's a sharp guy. Everything I'm hearing about this guy.
Laura Catena:
Yeah. He's-
Doug Shafer:
And he's ... Yeah.
Laura Catena:
... he's ... And he's not scared, uh, you know, the, the harder the challenge, the more determined he is. So, so anyhow, he and my mom come and my sister, my little sister, Adrianna-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
... we have a famous vineyard named after her. I think you've tasted the wines when we were in Naples-
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Laura Catena:
... together.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Laura Catena:
Um, you know, so she's born in Berkeley. And he's, uh, decides to go with my mother to see what's going on in the Napa Valley. And all of a sudden, he hears about the Judgment of Paris and these crazy Californians who are saying, hey, we're going to make wine here in California, as good as the best French wine.
Doug Shafer:
Robert Mondavi, that was his-
Laura Catena:
Robert Mondavi.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Laura Catena:
That was his thing. And he had grown up in a family where his father, my grandfather, loved Malbec. He would go to Europe, he used to come back and he said to my father, "Listen, Malbec is as good as any French wine." But my great grandfather, Nicolas, the original Italian immigrant, would say to my dad, "You know what, don't ever challenge the French. They own-
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
- the top wine. You know-
Doug Shafer:
He said don't challenge the French.
Laura Catena:
... we need to make-
Doug Shafer:
I love that.
Laura Catena:
Don't challenge the French. We make simple wines and we have our Argentine consumer and we're ... I'm so lucky to have come to Argentina where we have tons of steak.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
You know, he ... My great grandfather used to eat a piece of steak raw every morning for breakfast, to remind-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Laura Catena:
... himself of how lucky he was. Because actually-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
... uh, meat was cheaper than pasta-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Laura Catena:
... back then.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Laura Catena:
It's not now. Now it's a little more expensive.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Laura Catena:
But it's still fairly inexpensive, uh, you know, uh, beef in Argentina is still fairly inexpensive. So, so my father had grown up thinking, you know, don't ever even think of challenging the French.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Laura Catena:
I know it'll sound ... He goes to California and, and these crazy Californians are saying, yes, we are going to. And then there's this Judgment of Paris. So, my father, after a couple of years, you know, the military government leaves. He decides to come back to Argentina. And he says, you know, if these Californians can do it, I'm going to try to do it, too. But that's the time where Chile is doing really well. We're not, you know, we're talking the-
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Laura Catena:
... 80s.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
And, you know, everybody in Argentina is saying, we need to follow Chile. Which by the way, produces a lot less wine than Argentina, but they don't have a domestic market. So you know, they were exporting everything-
Doug Shafer:
They were exporting everything, yeah.
Laura Catena:
... they're doing really well with the low end. And everybody in Argentina is saying, we need to do the same as Chile. And my dad says, "Uh-uh, no, I am going to go the California way. I am going to try and make wine from Argentina that can stand with the best of the world." And he actually basically sold off anything he had that was not for high end production, for high quality. And he spent several years just studying the the terroir, going to these cool climate areas where you can get more minerality, you know, Winkler's zone two and one, you know, cooler climate, cooler nights, lots of sunlight.
Doug Shafer:
What-
Laura Catena:
You know, more-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, the whole thing.
Laura Catena:
... less fertile ... Yeah, like less fertile soils, you know, we have these alluvial soils that have limestone, that are stony with good drainage. And he, um, he realized that, uh, you know, at first, actually, he thought maybe what he needed was a bunch of, you know, fancy German presses and, and, the nice temperature control and stainless steel and the good French oak barrels.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
But, he realized, you know, after some time, that he also needed to go to some newer areas. And you know, that's when in 1992 we planted the Adrianna Vineyard, which is basically in a place where, uh, he was told that the vine would not thrive.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
That maybe you could ripen Chardonnay. But never Cabernet, never Malbec. And we actually make some incredible Cabernet up there, because-
Doug Shafer:
Well, I, I've got to interrupt you for a minute.
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So he comes back-
Laura Catena:
Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... from California. He says, "I'm going to go this quality route. No one's doing this in Argentina. Let's go."
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
What did you ... Because I'm assuming at that time your granddad was still kind of running the whole show, right, or was he ... Had your dad-
Laura Catena:
Well, no-
Doug Shafer:
... taken over?
Laura Catena:
You know, I mean, my dad sort of took over at the age of 20.
Doug Shafer:
Ahhh.
Laura Catena:
And, and-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
I have to say that, you know, my dad, uh, we, we all get kind of annoyed at my dad, because he'll be like, "Well, when I was 25, I was-
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
... like ... I could remember all the growers and all the prices and all of this." And you know, um, we have, you know, a, a CEO for all our businesses and you know, the CFO, and the winemaker. And we're like, okay, we know that when you were 20 years old, we could do this, but we can't.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
(laughing) So, uh, so I was like, "Okay, Dad, I need to look this up in my computer, because I don't have the brain you had as a 20-year-old, or, you know, as a 52-year-old, which is the age I am now." So, you know, I, I, um, so when he, he pretty much started and, and took over from his father and-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
... basically, you know, his father worked for him and, and I have to say, we, we have a, a nice way in our family of doing this, because you know, even if, you know, my dad is, still runs a lot of things, you know, he, he will gladly say he works for me. He basically tells me, "What do you need me to work on," and he does that. And you know, he has no problem with me telling him, "Hey, stay out of this. I got it covered. Uh, but I'd love for you to help me with this."
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
And that's what he did with his father. And, um, you know, it comes from, from a, a place of incredible mutual respect, you know. My dad can do everything I can do. Well, you know, the one thing that is hard for him is traveling and speaking in public.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
Uh, he does not like that.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
So that, that's the one thing that, that's a little easier for me. But everything else, I mean, he's incredible, uh, and we work together. And, uh, you know, and as, you know, I've gotten older and I have more experience, there's more things that I, you know, only ask him for advice if I need a, a, uh, some advice.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Laura Catena:
Uh, but, uh, he did the same thing with his father, except that I did it when I was 40, and he did it when he was 21. (laughing)
Doug Shafer:
(laughing) That's, you know, it's just, it's, it's so good to hear, a, a, a family, you know, mutual respect, love, caring, uh, egos get left outside the door.
Laura Catena:
Oh, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Just, and, and the, and the goal is for the common good. I've got, uh, listening to your story, I have a, one I've got to relate. It's pretty cute. With my father, who we lost a year ago, but he lived to 90.
Laura Catena:
I know.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, and it's all right. So 94. Had a great, great life, but-
Laura Catena:
Oh, what a great life-
Doug Shafer:
It was great.
Laura Catena:
... 94.
Doug Shafer:
And you know we had 35, 6 years together, which I never thought we'd be working together when I was a kid. And we, and it just happened.
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And it was wonderful and, and all those good things. But near the end of his life, he was probably, he was probably about 93. I went into his office one day and said, "Hey, Dad," I said, uh, "I need some advice." And he was looking at his computer and he turns around and he goes, he looks at me and goes, "No, you don't. You're just saying that to make me feel good."
Doug Shafer:
And I said, I said, "No, that was last week when I came in. But today, I really need some advice." (laughing)
Laura Catena:
(laughing)
Doug Shafer:
So that was a good laugh.
Laura Catena:
That's true, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
But, uh-
Laura Catena:
No, I mean, I, I still, you know, my dad's, um, just turned 80 last year and, uh, you know, there's a lot of difficult things that, uh, there's no way you can decide them on your own. And, and I like to think of the Socratic Method, where, you know, we're, we're discussing something and we'll each present our argument. And then there's always a winner, like there's always one argument that wins. And then we go, we, we go with it. We both go with it.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Laura Catena:
But, uh, we often have to start at opposites to reach a better solution. And, uh, I, I do the same thing with our staff, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Laura Catena:
Uh, I always say to people that work with me I don't want people that say yes. Like, I, I really can't work with people that agree with everything I say, because there's no possible way that I'm right. Even most of the time. So, you know, from challenging ideas, uh, come the best ideas. And, and I think that works really well with family when, when, you know, because you do know that you both have the exact same objectives at hand. And also, you know, you're not always thinking of the immediate profit. And that is one thing that I think family, uh, companies in general have in common. And the people who work for you kind of get bathed in that same culture and they also start thinking of, you know, what happens 20 years from now. Or what, what I like to challenge my team is a hundred years from now, you know. That's my goal. I want to be making wine as a family winery and you know, elevating Argentine wine for another hundred years. Can we do that?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Laura Catena:
But to do that, we need to start now.
Doug Shafer:
Exactly. That's the long-term view. So-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So, your father, um, I hope in Argentina he's recognized as being the guy that really bring quality to the forefront. I hope, I hope he has that recognition.
Laura Catena:
Yeah. No, he, he is, he is loved in Argentina, revered. I mean, he goes to restaurants and people want selfies with him.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
And-
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Laura Catena:
... oh, my God, it's, it's the sweetest thing to go with him anywhere when people recognize him. And he's so humble and, um, just oh, the nicest person. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's great. So let's, let's talk about you. But before you, how'd your, how'd your mom and dad meet? How'd that happen?
Laura Catena:
Oh, well, they were actually students together and they, they both tell a different story.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
And I actually ... I believe more my mom's side than my dad's. So you know, my dad basically claims that my mom was like desperate for him. And, and-
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
... actually, uh, the, the ... My mom tells the story that one time he wanted her to talk to him, so he, he fake dropped his glasses.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
And then, pretended he was blind and she helped him. And, and so, he claims that that's when she fell in love with him. And she, she was actually thinking like, oh, my God, poor guy, like more feeling bad for him and-
Doug Shafer:
(laughing) I got to help this guy out. That's-
Laura Catena:
Exactly. And, you know, and so, yeah, but, um, they met when they were in university. And, and my dad always likes to remind us all that, you know, as much as he was the top student, she was the top student. Then I'm like, "Dad, stop saying that to my kids, because they might not be the stop student."
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.
Laura Catena:
You know (laughing). Uh, I don't want them to think that the only position in life is as the top student. Um, but, uh, you know, they were both students, uh, at the University of Mendoza. And my mother actually runs a software company-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Laura Catena:
... and, uh, you know, she has her own separate business. But she did help in the early days of Catena, you know, uh, selling, um, our wines in the U.S., you know, when Paul Hobbs, uh, was our consultant for several years.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
And actually my mom and Paul Hobbs would go around bringing the wines because, you know, my dad's kind of shy. And he, you know, he didn't ... He, he also thinks his English is really bad. And his English is actually perfect. He has an accent, but you can understand him perfectly.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Laura Catena:
My mother speak English very fluently and she's also very gutsy. She's, you know, she has no fear of anything, um, and so she actually helped with the initial launch of the wines. And there's a famous story of my mom, uh, that actually was told to me by a customer, where she went in and, uh, she asked the customer. First, you know, would you like to taste my Chardonnay? And he asked about the price and the price was, you know, we're talking about, you know, early ‘90s, uh, was, uh, $15. And you know, the, the, the customer said, "Well, I'm not buying an Argentine Chardonnay for $15," you know, retail. And so she said, "Okay, well, what's your best Chardonnay you have?" And so the guy is like, "This one." So she, she said, "Okay, let's brown bag it." And she-
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
... she had the guy compare it. And she claims that after she did this, she kept on repeating it, and she claims we always won. You know, I don't know, in this particular case, this customer confirmed my mother's story, that our wine won. And so he decided to carry a very expensive Argentine Chardonnay and to sell it, you know, to hand sell it, because nobody knew Argentine could make great Chardonnay. And, uh, so my mom really was out there in the early days and I think that it was, it was very important. You needed a gutsy person back then.
Doug Shafer:
Well, she sounds like her daughter, the two of you.
Laura Catena:
(laughing)
Doug Shafer:
(laughing) I tell you.
Laura Catena:
Yeah, we, we, we have a lot in common.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Laura Catena:
Uh, yes.
Doug Shafer:
I think so, and that's a compliment. Um-
Laura Catena:
Thank you.
Doug Shafer:
... so you're born and raised in Argentina. You have brothers and sisters?
Laura Catena:
Yes, so I have, uh, my brother Nesto-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
... who actually makes his own wine. He is all organic, all biodynamic. You know, the Adrianna Vineyard is organic. Uh, we focus on organic and sustainable. But he is all about, uh, biodynamics, uh, he, um, is an artist. Uh, very talented person.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Laura Catena:
Uh, he, uh, sells a lot of wine also in Argentina. Like you can't go to a restaurant in Argentina without seeing one of his wines. He makes a wine called Tikal, uh, Alma Negra. Uh, his wines are sold in the U.S. as well. Um, and he kind of likes to run his own, uh, production, his own project. And, uh, my, my dad has been very supportive, um, with that. And, and for me, I, I kind of started as apprentice and did apprentice for 20 years.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
You know, so, we, we ... My brother and I are a little bit different and my brother wanted to be independent from day one.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Laura Catena:
And that's worked really well for him and for us, because my brother has done so many interesting things with wine that, uh, you know, that contribute to the interesting-ness of our family. I think it's, it's boring when, you know, you're only doing one kind of thing. Um, although I wouldn't say that anything at Catena is boring, you know, we're very dynamic.
Laura Catena:
And then my sister, Adrianna, she actually studied in, uh, in, at Berkeley.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
History. And then she went to Oxford for her PhD in history.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Laura Catena:
And she's, uh, was teaching at Warwick in England. She lives in London. But, uh, this year, uh, later this year, she's going to start working with us. And she actually started on her wine project call, called El Enemigo with our winemaker. They, they have their own, uh, winery. And this wine was one of the two first winners of 100 points from Parker-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, wow.
Laura Catena:
... for a, a Cab franc. So, so, despite being a historian and living in London, you know, this project that she's worked on with our, our head winemaker has done really, really well. And she also helped design, uh, she was the idea person for a new label we have, Malbec Argentino with the Four Women, telling the story of Malbec. Have you seen that label?
Doug Shafer:
Not yet, no.
Laura Catena:
I think you have ... No? So, Malbec Argentino, uh, tells the story of the Malbec variety on the label. It's beautiful. You should, you should look it up.
Doug Shafer:
I'll look it up.
Laura Catena:
It's four women. The first one is Eleanor of Aquitaine, the second one represents the Italian immigrant to Argentina, represents my great grandmother. Then the, the third woman is phylloxera, which actually phylloxera mostly exists in the female form. That's partly why they couldn't get rid of it, because they couldn't stop the reproductive cycle.
Doug Shafer:
That's right. All the mutations.
Laura Catena:
And then the, so, so it's a, uh, a third female figure. And then the fourth female figure is my sister. She wanted to be me, but I decided it was her.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
And then inside the label, there's like references to Cahors in in France, to- ... you know, to the court of Eleanor of Aquitaine. And that has become a label and she is a historian and came up with this whole idea. And it's been a very successful label. So, it, it does ... It is good to have a historian in the family.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, no, it's great. It's a great story. You've got to have stories.
Laura Catena:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
And you, you guys have a lot of them. That's super. So-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... that's, that's exciting she's coming back. So, you were, you were born in Argentina, but you, you said you were up in Berkeley. Was Berkeley-
Laura Catena:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
... high school for you?
Laura Catena:
So I actually went to, uh, CPS. I don't know you've heard of it, it's college prep.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
So it's, it's a private school, uh, in Berkeley. And, uh, and then you know, I started. I, I mean, my English was quite bad. I remember getting up in, in the blackboard to, you know, when they ask you to write something. And I wrote "Who," H-O-O.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Laura Catena:
You know, for like, you know, who did this?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
And I remember everybody looking at me with this look in their faces of fear, like because they didn't want to laugh. And I remember the teacher like, you know, gently correcting me. So I started out-
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Laura Catena:
... you know, spoke English relatively well. Couldn't write it very well. Uh, and I started, uh, I was in, uh, tenth grade. Well, I started in ninth and then my parents had to go back to Argentina, so I kind of skipped a grade. And then I went to Harvard, where, you know, I had absolutely no intention of working with my dad. I loved-
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
... both science and humanities.
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Laura Catena:
And then, kind of went for the science, because I thought I was more precise. And then, you know, I wanted to do something to help people, so I said to myself, you know, "Medicine is perfect. It has science. It has some humanity side to it."
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
Uh, it, and then you get to work with people and I want to help people. That was my goal. And you know, today with what my father has done in Argentina, what I'm doing in Argentina, elevating Argentine wine, I know that I'm helping more people through wine than I am, you know, as an individual doctor.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Laura Catena:
You know, because when you help, uh, you know, thousands of people who work in the vineyards, you know, to, to farm sustainably, when you help Argentine wine not be in a commodity, when you show people that Argentine wine can be among the best wines in the world, you're helping a whole industry. You're helping millions of people. And, you know, honestly, I now believe firmly, you know, that responsible businesses help as much as doctors, and nurses, and teachers, uh, you know, not to take any credit off of doctors and, and hospital personnel, because right now-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Laura Catena:
... you know, they are in the frontline and they're making so many sacrifices. My, my husband is an emergency doctor and you know, I mean, there's been so many deaths from, from-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
... hospital workers, uh, and it's a huge sacrifice. But I think that, that, you know, I'm seeing in the news right now a lot, people talking about, uh, those who do Amazon delivery, you know, all the, the people that are keeping, uh, people at home supplied with what they need, you know. Those people are just as important as, as the traditional, you know, help, um, professions. And, and so, you know, I started as, as a doctor and I love being a doctor. I, I love being, uh, an emergency medicine physician. I'm not transitioning, um, to volunteer work.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I was going to ask-
Laura Catena:
Uh-
Doug Shafer:
... you if you were, if you're still-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... practicing. So you're-
Laura Catena:
So, so I-
Doug Shafer:
... transitioning out.
Laura Catena:
... I actually, I actually ... The crazy thing is that last year, as, as an 80th gift to my father, I said, "Okay, I'm finally going to transition to volunteer doctor," and it was literally a couple months before COVID. And so, I left my position as an emergency doctor, because you know, I'm traveling too much. I have to be at the winery.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Laura Catena:
My team, you know, couldn't get a hold of me. You know, I can't answer the winery if I'm a doctor, you know, you have to be a hundred percent there. And so, but, but, but you know what, but the, but the, you know, being a doctor is very vocational. It, it's almost impossible to ... You can't leave it because you have to be, you know, that, that direct satisfaction of helping somebody and, and I am helping a lot of my friends with questions, but I am going to start my volunteer job as soon as they reopen the clinic that I'm planning to work at-
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Laura Catena:
... here in the city.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Laura Catena:
So yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's good news.
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And so-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... you and your husband, it's Daniel. How, how-
Laura Catena:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
... how'd you guys meet?
Laura Catena:
So we, we actually met in residency. And, uh, so we were both doing emergency medicine in Los Angeles at Harbor UCLA.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
That's where we met. Yeah. We were both residents in emergency medicine.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. And so before you retired, you were practicing for how many years?
Laura Catena:
So, um, almost ... Well, uh, emergency medicine, I ... So it would be 25 years.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Laura Catena:
Uh, but actually in some sort of clinical settings, uh, 30 years.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. And, and it's ... You guys have ... You have three kids, right?
Laura Catena:
Yes. Yes, three kids. Uh, they all come back and forth to Argentina with me, since they were little. And, uh, my middle son likes to work at the winery. My daughter's worked at the winery. And my oldest son is actually going next year to UCLA to do a PhD in organic chemistry, but he claims he has no interest in wine. But, you know-
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
... organic chemistry and wine, there-
Doug Shafer:
That's kind of right there.
Laura Catena:
Right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that, uh-
Laura Catena:
(laughing)
Doug Shafer:
Well, we'll let that, we'll let that one play out.
Laura Catena:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, and doing some research, tell me about this, uh, Catena Institute of Wine.
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's 1995, what's that all about?
Laura Catena:
Yeah, so, you know, I was, you know, not thinking at all of working with my dad. but I had been traveling to France with him when he would go on his exploratory trips, because I speak French, I studied French in, in high school and college. So I would be his, you know, quote unquote translator, you know. I, I think it was part of this big scheme of his.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
Laura Catena:
But so I fell in love with drinking wine as a consumer first, not thinking I would work with the family. So I actually had a pretty developed palate and knew quite a bit about wine. And, um, you know, my dad asked me to go to the New York Wine Experience, the first time we were invited. So I go there, then I call my dad back and I say, I just started my first job as a doctor, uh, as an emergency doctor. And I said, "Dad, I have to help you. This idea you have that, you know, Argentine wine is going to compete with the best wines of the world, you know, it's a ridiculous dream."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Laura Catena:
You're, you're ... It's never going to happen. (laughing)
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Laura Catena:
You know, I, I need to help you, because like I went to the New York Wine Experience, people would walk in front of me and not even taste my wine, because they said Argentina, you know, who, who's ever heard of Argentina making wine? We were the only winery from South America.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Laura Catena:
It was 1995.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
And, uh, you know, uh, so, you know, I'm sure Shafer had like really long lines at that Wine Experience.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Laura Catena:
You know, we, we had nobody-
Doug Shafer:
No, no, no, no.
Laura Catena:
Uh-
Doug Shafer:
No, no, no. You, no, you need to-
Laura Catena:
(laughing)
Doug Shafer:
... I need to tell you some history. I got stories for you, but, uh-
Laura Catena:
Okay. Okay.
Doug Shafer:
... you're sweet, though.
Laura Catena:
We'll, we'll ... Yeah, but, but, but anyhow, so I called my dad, and I said, "Dad, I need to come work with you." And really, I don't know anything about selling, but I know about science, because I've done a lot of research. And I said, "I want to help you really get to make these wines. And it's all going to be about studying the soil, the climate, the wine making," because the only way to compete is to actually make wines that are just as good.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
Wines that can be blind tasted and that, and that are just as good. And we realized that you know nobody from outside of Argentina knew anything about high altitude farming, nobody knew anything about Malbec. I mean, most people would come to Argentina and make Malbec like a Bordeaux variety. They would do long maturations, like Cabernet.
Laura Catena:
Whereas was actually Malbec needs to be treated a little more Pinot Noir, because it actually has these soft tannins, and it has really flora aromatics, so you, you know, you need a completely different approach, um, from Cabernet. And so, I said to my dad, "Let's, let's start a research group within our winery, so that we can test, test, test." And you know, we do about a thousand micro-vinifications of all kinds of different things. Uh, because I realized that we needed to, to, to develop our in-house knowledge about Argentina. That, you know, you could learn a lot from outsiders, but in the end, you've got to figure out your own terrior.
Doug Shafer:
Sure, exactly. So, this was a, a basically an internal research center-
Laura Catena:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
... that you guys started. Okay.
Laura Catena:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Now, so is this when you started tapping into consultants like Paul Hobbs?
Laura Catena:
So the-
Doug Shafer:
That's in the 90s.
Laura Catena:
I mean, the consultants were, were a little before. So-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
... Paul started in the late 80s.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
Uh, you know, I met Paul in California because he lives in California. But I, I, I worked only a little bit with Paul. You know, by the time I, you know, I started in the mid-90s and Paul, uh, his last vintage was, uh, you know, he was there for '97.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
Uh, for just the harvest. Uh, but I, but I do know Paul very well. Uh, but then, my dad had this great, uh, technique, uh, to, to get, uh, knowledge from an outsider. So he basically, uh, would give an audience to anybody who comes to Argentina would say, you know, "We need to meet the godfather of Argentine wine."
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
Nicolas Catena. Meet him. He's, he's doing all the, the, the new stuff and the quality wine making. So, you know, Jacques Luterne, Etilio Palia who had worked with Antinori all the, you know, the, the, the people trying to make wine in Argentina, um, Michel Rolland. You know, everybody would come and talk to my dad. And, my dad would say, you know, um, "Here is my winery. If you want, I lend you these tanks, these barrels, so that you don't have to make a big investment. You can use my presses. But in exchange, you have to teach us everything you know."
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
"You have to help train my team." And it was like really sort of a handshake deal. And honestly, that's how our wine making team learned everything about traditional French wine making. Uh, and all these people have remained friends all over the world.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Laura Catena:
We just, uh, did a book for my father's 80th birthday. And all these people wrote letters, uh, to my dad about the, the old days. And, uh, you know, that's how we got a lot of knowledge, uh, and, and our team got trained.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. So you were joining-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... you joined him up ... You joined him, uh, in '95, is that when you joined the family business?
Laura Catena:
Yes. Yes. I mean, I started ... I started earlier-
Doug Shafer:
You were-
Laura Catena:
... doing these trips with my dad-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
... but really, you know, formally, in '95. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, and you were still a doctor, but you were living ... Well, you were living in both places, like you said.
Laura Catena:
Yeah. Well, and I, and I was actually, you know, I was full-time doctor then, but emergency doctors, you know, you only work about 10, 12 days a month. So I was still, you know, my free time, I'd be calling Argentina, you know, any vacation, I would get ... I mean, there is one thing about emergency doctors, is that you often get a week off, two weeks off, and then you work all the other days. So it does give you flexibility. It's, it's very much the only field I could have picked that I could be doing both.
Doug Shafer:
Amazing.
Laura Catena:
And that's a random thing, you know, it's just pure luck.
Doug Shafer:
It's amazing to me. And so, these days, what's, what's the size of ... How many acres or hectares do you guys own and number of cases, and brands? I mean, it's, it's big, right?
Laura Catena:
So, you know, I don't, uh, give number of cases, because you know, we have lots of different-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Laura Catena:
... we have several different wineries-
Doug Shafer:
You've got the ... Well, you have different brands-
Laura Catena:
... different projects.
Doug Shafer:
That's right. I understand.
Laura Catena:
So, you know, um, you know, I have, you know, a number of hectares that I call our, you know, grand valle-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
... or grand cru, even if you know grand cru is a French term, but that's our internal name for that.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Laura Catena:
And those hectares, um, you know, are in the range of, of around 70 hectares. So 140 acres. Um, but all in all, you know, our family's, uh, total vineyards are about 1,000 hectares, so about 2,000 acres.
Doug Shafer:
That's fantastic.
Laura Catena:
Yeah. And then we also ... We, you know, as a family, we also, uh, have some brands that are, uh, you know, in, in, in, um, in, you know, more economic price points that we sell all over the world, that, uh, we buy some grapes from growers. But we worked very closely with growers, so we have our full sustainability program that we teach all our growers to farm sustainably. And, you know, to me, you know, I, I like fine wine. I like collectible wine. I love your wines, uh, you know, because they age so well. But, um, you know, I'm not, I'm not a wine snob, you know. I can drink, uh, a $10, uh, 10 Euro Albariño and, and be ecstatic, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
I, um, I believe that there is a place for every, you know, every, every time has, has, has a, a price point, and, and you know, whatever money you have, you can have a great wine.
Doug Shafer:
I'm totally with you on that one. I mean, sometimes the, you know, the, the gems and the top wonderful, beautiful wines, but it's just like I, I don't want to kind of deal with that every night, you know. It's like-
Laura Catena:
No.
Doug Shafer:
... I just want something nice, refreshing, a nice rose, a nice like you said Albariño, I go to-
Laura Catena:
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I-
Doug Shafer:
... in a big way, you know, um-
Laura Catena:
I, I have no ... I feel no shame in loving rosè. And, and-
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
... and I also love natural wines. And I know it's almost like a contradiction. You can't love natural wines that are, you know, like so, like a little oxidized and a little funky, and just like so interesting. And rose, which, you know, some people say it's like a commercial wine. I love Pinot Grigio. Like-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
Laura Catena:
... a really hot day.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Laura Catena:
Like a cool Pinot Grigio, or a cool rosè, I mean, that's delicious. I, I, I love it.
Doug Shafer:
Well, there, there's also, there's something I kind of miss right now, I never thought I'd say that, it's white wine on a plane. I can't say ... I, I kind of miss that now, because I always-
Laura Catena:
It's, it's-
Doug Shafer:
... I, I always have white wine on the plane, just because it's-
Laura Catena:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... like, wow, what's this all about?
Laura Catena:
I agree.
Doug Shafer:
And just kind of try to delve into it. And I kind of miss it, because I'm not on a plane right now. It's just not happening.
Laura Catena:
You know what, I agree that if you're going to have, if you're going to risk it on a plane-
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
... go with white.
Doug Shafer:
Go with white.
Laura Catena:
I, I'm with you on that one.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing) Um, tell me about ... Now, you've got a winery named after your son?
Laura Catena:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Luca. What's that all about?
Laura Catena:
Yeah, so, so Luca, you know, I have a vineyard, but I, I actually, uh, make, um, the wine at one of our family wineries, but it's a completely separate team from the Catena team. And basically, Luca started because, you know, when I, when I was working with my dad in the, in the, um, in the sort of mid to late 90s, uh, that's where I started hearing a lot about old vines, you know. I would go to France and everybody is talking about old vines. And I'd hear that all the great wines in the world, uh, at least in Europe, uh, they have these vine age requirements. Like, you know, you can't go into the top wine unless the vine's at least 20 years old. And then in California, people were talking about old vines, in Australia. And in Argentina, everybody was talking about young vines. And the, you know, we, our family had some old vines that we're making beautiful Malbec with, but, um, the wineries would say, hey, no, you know, those old vines from that grower, they're bad quality, you know. Any grapes that you don't farm yourself are going to be bad quality. And you know, and then I heard about Sine Qua Non, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
It's like, you know, that's amazing wine. And they purchase their grapes. Uh, and so I said, you know, why is it that the rest of the world can find these beautiful vineyards, and actually Argentina has, you know, thousands of hectares of pre-phylloxera vineyards. You know, ungrafted vines. Uh, and, and these beautiful vineyards. So, I said to my dad, "Dad, I want to do a project with old vines, and I want to figure out if we can make great wine out of some of these vineyards that are basically selling their grapes in bulk. And we're all planning to pull out the vineyards and replant, because the yields were so low."
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
So I basically spent a summer, uh, the summer of, um, 1999, driving around and just making handshake deals with people saying, hey, you know, I'll pay you by the hectare. And, uh, you know, I wanted you to let our team manage, you know, this little parcel here. Or sometimes we'd buy the whole vineyard, if that's what they wanted. And, and that's how Luca was born, actually it was basically because I wanted to make old vine, uh, wine, and, um, you know. And then, I started a second project, La Tosos, also with growers. But now, actually many wineries are making beautiful wines from growers. Uh, you know, the same as you have, uh, in California, that some of the growers are, are farming some of the best grapes.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Laura Catena:
And, uh, that was the origin of, uh, the Luca project. And, and the other thing with Luca is that I, I did things that nobody else was doing. So, I have a really beautiful Syrah, I have a Pinot Noir that, um, is beautiful. And, and I just actually came out with a new, um, label, Domaine Nico, that I have five, uh, single parcel Pinot Noirs. And Luca is a blend and I've been making it since 1999. And Domaine Nico, I just started it, uh, with the 2016 vintage, but the '17 is what I'm selling outside of Argentina.
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Laura Catena:
So, you know, I'm doing stuff that is not like does not have some kind of, you know, huge, uh, commercial potential. But I feel like, you know, you, as a family, if we're thinking of the hundred year plan, we've got to always be trying new things.
Doug Shafer:
Trying new things. Well, yeah, that, you know, we do that here. You try things on the side-
Laura Catena:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
... as an experiment.
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
If it works out, you move it into-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Laura Catena:
Yeah. Well, and, and just a quick thing. That's what's great about, uh, wine as opposed to medicine, is you know, you can't just try things in medicine, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Laura Catena:
You have to be evidence-based, you have to know your stuff-
Doug Shafer:
Well, and-
Laura Catena:
... you know, you can't-
Doug Shafer:
... and the world is learning about that right now, aren't we.
Laura Catena:
Yeah. No, exactly. But you have to, because you, you, you know, you can't take risks. That's why the vaccine, uh, production is going to take a year and a half, because you-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
... you know, you ... It has to be really safe. The luxury of wine is that you can test something. If it doesn't work out, well, you don't, you drink it yourself.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
You know, it, it, it is kind of wonderful to be in wine, because, you know, there's, there's a limit to, to, to how many mistakes, you know, uh, you can-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Laura Catena:
... make mistakes and it doesn't matter, you know. As long as what you're selling in the bottle is good, you can make a lot of mistakes.
Doug Shafer:
You got it. You got it. I know about that drink it yourself. That happens. That's happened-
Laura Catena:
(laughing)
Doug Shafer:
... to me for ... It's been a, it's been about 15, 20 years, but I, I know that one. Um, hey, new subject. I didn't realize, you're an author. You've written two, two books.
Laura Catena:
Oh, yes.
Doug Shafer:
So tell me about the two books.
Laura Catena:
Yes. Yes. Uh, and I'm on my third. Uh, I'll tell you about the third. So the first book-
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Laura Catena:
... was "Vino Argentino," which is, uh, you can find it still on Amazon. Probably not a lot ... And, and, and you know, probably used, in used, uh, book stores. Uh, "Vino Argentino, An Insider's Guide to the Wines and Wine Country of Argentina." It's a book about the wine regions, the, the people in Argentina, the culture, as well as, uh, recipes, um, from the different regions. And it was done by Chronicle Books, which is a, a great publisher. Uh, I spent about eight years trying to, to get somebody to accept the project. So, you know when, when, you know, when they say that the Harry Potter lady, is I don't know how many years it took her.
Doug Shafer:
It took her a long time. Yeah.
Laura Catena:
You know, it is true. It is really hard to get a book published. So, that was the book, and we had it translated in, in, um, in Spanish and Portuguese. And, and it's really a great book to take to Argentina. I listed 100 wineries that you can visit, with all their emails, and, and addresses. And I interviewed many other producers in Argentina who were all extremely willing to be in the book. It, it was just a great project. Uh, and that was published in 2010.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
And then, "Gold in the Vineyards" is a new book.
Doug Shafer:
That's right. Yeah.
Laura Catena:
And it's been illustrated ... Yeah, it's an illustrated book about some of the most famous wines in the world. And, uh, I basically went to, uh, you know, I picked the families that I knew, that their wines were really famous. And I wanted to tell sort of the more, you know, playful stories about the families. Uh, not, not ... They're not all playful. Also some of the tragedies.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
Like, you know, the murder between the Medicis and the Antinoris', did you know that?
Doug Shafer:
No.
Laura Catena:
That there's like a murder story between the Medicis and the Antinoris. Like, I mean, Theo Antinori was like besides himself looking at the illustration, because he's like, how did you know about this story?
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
It's on, it's on your website.
Doug Shafer:
I need to get this book.
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
Yeah, uh, and then, uh, and then it's illustrated because I think people are really, uh, learning through their eyes these days, because-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Laura Catena:
... there is so much, uh, visual going on, you know, with Instagram and Facebook. And, and so I wanted illustrations because I think also that, you know, people love to drink wine, but they don't like to read about wine as much. Uh, I mean, there is the wine nerds out there, like you and me. But you know, people like to, to, to look at things.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
You know, look at Wine Folly. Like they are so popular because it's all illustrations about wine. And so that was part of the idea. And so that book came out, just now in March, terrible timing. So-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. But, uh-
Laura Catena:
I, I-
Doug Shafer:
... can they get it, uh, can they get on Amazon? Or how do they get it?
Laura Catena:
So, they can, so they can get it in, actually in independent bookstores, who are selling-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
... online. But it, it's on Amazon. Actually they sold out on release.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Laura Catena:
Because they were pre-ordered. There were so many pre-orders. It's on sale in U.K., in U.S. and Canada, and also in Brazil and Argentina. There is, uh, a Portuguese and a Spanish. And I'm working on a potential Chinese edition.
Doug Shafer:
Cool. That is so neat.
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So people need ... And you're working on a third book, you said.
Laura Catena:
Yeah, so the third book is with our winemaker about Malbec and the Argentine terroirs of Malbec. And it's also an illustrated book with illustrations of soil, and, and maps and also the history of Malbec, uh, told through these like letters from my winemaker to me and emails and social media. It's crazy. It's, it's, it's a book like you've never seen. It's either going to be amazing or horrible.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
Hopefully amazing.
Doug Shafer:
It'll, it'll be amazing, I'm sure. I'm sure.
Laura Catena:
But it'll be in Spanish. How is your Spanish?
Doug Shafer:
Ahhh, si asi. That's-
Laura Catena:
Oh, bien.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Laura Catena:
I mean, uh, everybody in California speaks some Spanish. So-
Doug Shafer:
Well, yeah, it's-
Laura Catena:
... I'll give you a copy-
Doug Shafer:
Well, I speak enough to get-
Laura Catena:
... in Spanish.
Doug Shafer:
My Spanish will get me in a fight in a bar. That's what happens with my Spanish. So, so I'll stick to English.
Laura Catena:
Hopefully, out of, out of a fight.
Doug Shafer:
Out a fight, well, yeah, that's because I-
Laura Catena:
(laughing)
Doug Shafer:
... I used to, I used to be fast, but not anymore. So I've got to be a fast talker. Fast talker.
Laura Catena:
(laughing)
Doug Shafer:
Um, so anyway, these days, you guys, your ... I'm, I'm just curious about this. I was thinking about you and your wines, um, because I know a lot of folks in other countries, they export, you know, their biggest market is the United States. Is that, is that it for you guys, now, or you still sell most of it-
Laura Catena:
So-
Doug Shafer:
... in Argentina?
Laura Catena:
... We, so we sell about half our wine. We export half in Argentina.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Okay.
Laura Catena:
Which I really like because I don't want to just be an exporting winery.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
You know, I, I, I really care about my domestic market, the Argentine people. But I'm also, you know, kind of, you know, fanatical about, you know, people outside of Argentina getting to know Argentine wine. So yeah, our top market for exports is, uh, the U.S.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
And it is rough out there. It's rough everywhere, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Right. I'm with you.
Laura Catena:
Uh, but it's, but the thing is, you know, every time you think, oh, it's rough for me, then at least I'm selling wine in some places. What about restaurants that can't run their business. So honestly, um, this is one of those situations where there's always somebody worse off than you and, and we need to help ourselves and them, and people who are worse off than we are.
Doug Shafer:
That's what we're doing.
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, so curious, if someone was new to, new to you and your wines, how, how would you steer them? Who should ... What, what brand, what wine label should they look for to get a feel for what Catena is doing? What would be a good-
Laura Catena:
So, you know, I, I would start with the classic Catena Malbec. I always call it-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Laura Catena:
... my Chanel No. 5.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
You know, because it, it's been around since the ‘90s. It's a blend of four different altitudes. It's just classic Malbec. It's often, you know, the, the blind wine at one of these massive sommelier tests-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Laura Catena:
... or WSET, because, uh, it's very classic. It tastes like Malbec. It's not too oaky, so it's, you know, you really smell the fruit. It's, it's classic Argentine Malbec. That's where I would start.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Good.
Laura Catena:
And then, you know, you can, you can try this wine Malbec Argentino, the one with the label with the four women. I'm, I'm kind of in love with that one.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that's the one-
Laura Catena:
And then if you want to go-
Doug Shafer:
... I want to try. I want to see that one.
Laura Catena:
Yeah. If you want to go for the more collectible wine, uh, I would try one of the Adrianna wines. And actually, if you're a lover of, um, you know, California Cabs, or super Tuscans, or some of the Bordeaux blends, I would taste, taste the Nicolas Catena Zapata. It has my father's name and it's a Cabernet Malbec.
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Laura Catena:
And it has ... It's more of a cabby Malbec. And, uh, I find that people who really love Cab, tend to prefer that wine over a, a 100% Malbec.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. All right. Good. Great, great tips. Thank you. And-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... if people want to find your wine, I mean, I'm sure it's, restaurants are tough right now, uh-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... any particular retail or-
Laura Catena:
Well-
Doug Shafer:
... is there ... Is online-
Laura Catena:
... I mean-
Doug Shafer:
... is online and if online-
Laura Catena:
I think-
Doug Shafer:
... where?
Laura Catena:
Uh, I think that, um, yeah, pretty much most major wine stores in the country carry one of our wines. And I would, I would, you know, encourage people to support these stores.
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Laura Catena:
Uh, call them up, and, and get an order from your local store, uh, because you know, they ... We ... You want them to stay in business.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Definitely.
Laura Catena:
And, um, and then, uh, yeah, and if, if restaurants are delivering wine, I hope once in a while, they're pairing their delicious food with Malbec.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Laura Catena:
(laughing)
Doug Shafer:
Good. And, uh, social media, you've got a couple of accounts. Where can people find you and follow you?
Laura Catena:
Yes, so, the, the winery has, uh, a Facebook, Cadena Zapata. And an Instagram, at Catena Malbec, which is ... No, no, sorry, the Instagram is Catena Wines-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Laura Catena:
... @catena wines. The Twitter is Catena Malbec. And mine is, uh, Instagram, Laura Catena MD.
Doug Shafer:
M.D. Got it.
Laura Catena:
Because the Laura Catena is, is taken by an Italian woman who won't give it up.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
So it's my name, plus M.D.
Doug Shafer:
Plus M.D.
Laura Catena:
And then my, my Twitter is my name straight, Laura Catena.
Doug Shafer:
Beautiful. Beautiful.
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Well, listen you are so nice to do this today and take your time. Thank your family for being, um, quiet in the background and putting up with us. I appreciate that. And, I really, I miss you a lot and I can hardly wait until we get back to those situations where we can see-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... each other, all these wine tastings and-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... things we go together.
Laura Catena:
Yeah, it was, it was really fun to do that event together with you in Naples. I, I felt so honored. Oh, by the way, I just want to tell you that my winemaker, I've told you this before, but he is obsessed with your wine.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Laura Catena:
And he, like any time I say, "What can I bring you back from the U.S.?" He's like, "Shafer."
Doug Shafer:
Well -
Laura Catena:
He's like, "Why are you even asking me?" So he loves everything that you guys do and congratulations to you and your family winery for all the traditions that you're keeping. And, uh, let's have our families get together some time.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, because I'll tell you something, I, you know, I realized just this morning, I was thinking about, I've, I've taken so many normal things for granted, you know, just having lunch with my crew in the kitchen, 10 of us.
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You know, around the table.
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Uh, getting on a plane and coming to Argentina and visiting your winery.
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
It'd be like, oh, yeah, I'll do that someday. It's like, wow-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... if could do that right now, it's like-
Laura Catena:
I know, right?
Doug Shafer:
... I would, I would just be so appreciative of that opportunity. So-
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... I think we're all going to come out of this with a, a greater appreciation of just life, and everything.
Laura Catena:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So-
Laura Catena:
Yeah. Yeah. I think so.
Doug Shafer:
You-
Laura Catena:
All right, Doug.
Doug Shafer:
... you take care. Great talking to you.
Laura Catena:
Thank you, Doug.
Doug Shafer:
You stay in touch, stay well, stay safe. See you.
Laura Catena:
Okay. Salud.
Doug Shafer:
Salud. Thanks.
Laura Catena:
Bye, bye.
Doug Shafer:
Bye, bye.
Laura Catena:
Bye.
Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Hey everybody this is Doug Shafer back with another episode of “The Taste.” A lot has changed since we recorded our last podcast. We are all in what you call shelter-in-place mode here in California, so today we’re recording this podcast with our first call-in guest. It’s all about social distancing and we take that seriously out here in the Napa Valley. So sound quality won’t be quite what you’ve heard here before but we thought we’d give this thing a go. Since things seem to change every day I’d like to mention that we’re recording this on Monday, March 30th, 2020. By the time we post it who knows what else might have changed. But we’re all hanging in here and keeping our fingers crossed and hope you’re doing the same. So, with that, I'd like to talk about our guest today. He's a long time friend, fellow wine maker, vintner, known him for many many years, one of the founders and owners of Saintsbury Winery in the Carneros region, David Graves. David Graves, glad you're here man. How are you doing?
David Graves:
Well thank you for taking my call. Oh no, it's not call in talk radio, oh.
Doug Shafer:
*laughs*
David Graves:
Hey it's great to be here. I, I wish, as you said, I wish we were yakking face to face but, yeah, circumstances intervened. But uh-
Doug Shafer:
Well I tell you what, we'll, we can, we'll just do it again. We'll do part two at some point when we get together. How about that?
David Graves:
There you go. Yeah. Hey, how about this virtual wine-tasting thing.
Doug Shafer:
Well I was going to ask you how you're surviving with this whole stuff, day to day, but um, to those of you out there in the wine world you probably know this, there's lots of emails going out where people are doing virtual wine making, virtual wine tastings like on your computer. How's that, have you done that David Graves? What's going on?
David Graves:
No, I, we're pretty excited about doing it. I guess Karen MacNeil's doing it like once a week with a designated wine, so we're going to do it with our wine club members because they're going to get a shipment pretty soon and we're going to say, "Hey," you know maybe a week after they get it, "at a designated hour we're going to pop a cork and our winemaker Tim Colla and I are gonna be on and we're gonna have like a Zoom wine-tasting. So I'm pretty excited.
Doug Shafer:
I like it, I like it.
David Graves:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Let me know and, you know, if I don't have Saintsbury wine, I'll have something else and I'll just pretend, how does that sound? *laughs*
David Graves:
Well you, we've all faked it before so why not?
Doug Shafer:
*laughs*. So bad. Anyway, so are you guys surviving? How are you surviving? Have you come up with anything to survive these long, sheltered home days. Anything, any tips out there for us?
David Graves:
Well a couple of... Somebody said, and I laughed out loud when I saw this, three o'clock is the new five o' clock in terms of pulling corks. So, but we have, you know we're a small team, we have the people that are normally hosting visitors here, they're at home checking in with our wine club members and people that visited the winery and seeing how their wine supplies are and it turns out we're actually doing pretty well with sending wine to shut-ins. I feel like such a, you know, like a Florence Nightingale for people that are shut in. So, I came up with, I mean there's a lot of lines people are, people have come up with that are funny and I think it's all sort of gallows humor of making the best of a pretty bad situation, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
David Graves:
Was about, you know with all this hording going on, our tagline for a while was, "You don't need to horde wine, we've horded it for you, it's just a click or a phone call away."
Doug Shafer:
*laughs*. You are good. You're, I'm glad, I'm glad you called in today, it's great to hear your voice. Um, how about new hobbies? Netflix, you watching old movies? What are you doing, reading books?
David Graves:
Well, I am reading, I read em on my iPad now but I, you know I really like book books. So I just found out there was a sale on a book that I had wanted for a while sitting on my desk, the Oxford Companion to Cheese, which is sort of a companion to-
Doug Shafer:
Wait, wait, wait, Oxford Companion of Wine, that's the only one I know about.
David Graves:
Yeah. Well this is sort of the same idea, not written by Jancis but every bit as thorough and, you know, everything you always wanted to know and the useful Oxford university press high production values. So that's, that's getting some time.
Doug Shafer:
You getting some, you getting some time, good. So anyway, let's change gears. Let's talk about you and the winery. I want to go all the way back. So where did you grow up, where, where were you born? What year? Where did you grow up?
David Graves:
Well, to the extent I have grown up, uh, I, I was born in post-war suburbia in 1952 on the cusp of two towns that blew up in the post-war baby boom time between Walnut Creek and Lafayette, right on the edge of the two of them. So we used to, we were within striking distance for the proverbial Sunday drives so I remember going to like Wente and Concannon and Cre-, even Cresta Blanca when it was open down there. And then the first time I ever heard the "Every year is a vintage year in California" line, I could tell you I was-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, good line.
David Graves:
Yeah. Beringer, probably 1960 on a, was still owned by the family. You know the Raymond-
Doug Shafer:
Oh wow.
David Graves:
The descents of the original Beringer.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, the Raymond, the Raymond family.
David Graves:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Anyway, Walnut Creek as a kid I'm imagining it was probably kind of like San Jose at that point in time, it wasn't all built up and there was like lots of rural areas and farmlands and, is that true? Or is it all paved over like it is now?
David Graves:
Well there was, there was, it was, you know the idea that there's a Tiffany's and a Neiman Marcus in uh.
Doug Shafer:
*laughs*.
David Graves:
Neiman Marcus building used to be a Penny's where in the basement I used to buy my, my mom would take me there to buy my new shoes for school. But, you know, it still had its, there was still a Walnut co-op there when I was a kid.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
David Graves:
And you know the other thing is uh, I'm a really, I love baseball for example but I'm a terrible baseball player. But I, you know, I was in the, kinda the local version of little league and I was always the guy out in right field. But- The organized sports thing didn't sort of, it hadn't taken over kids lives and parents lives quite the way it has now I think. So there was a lot more kind of like, "Hey, Alec, you want to hop over there and go over to the creek and see how the tadpoles are," and woop, there we were.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, exactly.
David Graves:
Sort of made your own fun a bit more. And uh, I'm old enough to remember when Pong was an exotic video game.
Doug Shafer:
I remember Pong, it was great. Drinking beer and playing pong. Um, now they play beer pong anyway and I heard they do it virtually. So I haven't seen that, my kid told me that, I've got to check that out.
David Graves:
*laughs*. You're right, I've heard of that too.
Doug Shafer:
If I find, if I find out, we'll have to get Zoom, we'll Zoom together and we'll play a little beer pong. So talk to me, in Walnut Creek, brothers, sisters?
David Graves:
I had two older brothers, one of whom was a grad student at Cal and so, he and I, I, he's quite a bit older than I am but we're very close. And he actually lives in Australia because his wife is Australian and he's lived there for a long time. He makes wine in Australia but that's not his day job.
Doug Shafer:
Oh. I never knew that.
David Graves:
But the point of, the uh, story is that he introduced me to Davis Bynam who had a, like a little retail store on San Pablo avenue back in the day.
Doug Shafer:
No, he had a winery. So he had-
David Graves:
Yeah but and then he had a winery.
Doug Shafer:
So he had a, he had a retail store first.
David Graves:
Yep. Well he had a, like a, there was sort of winery in the back and a retail, you know, storefront in the front. And, the way this connects to me very directly is that the first Pinot Noir that really opened my eyes about California Pinot Noir was, I think it was the first Pinot Noir that had the Rochioli Vineyard name on it, it was made by Davis Bynam. This was before Rochioli made wine on their own. It was a '73. I had it in the fall of '75, right after it was released. And it was just like, Whoa, this is amazing. And I didn't have, I didn't have much understanding of Burgundy at the time but it really, I had sort of a gap year, then I went to grad school at the University of Chicago, so I know a little bit about the place where you grew up.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
David Graves:
And then it was really cold that winter. Even by Chicago standards. It, I was unlucky in love, I had no money, and my academic advisor and I were, shall we say, not best buds. So, I-
Doug Shafer:
All right I'm going to put you on hold for a second, I want to come back to this. But I wanna, I'm not done with Walnut Creek. Because I wanna know-
David Graves:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
You had two older brothers. Two older brothers, what about your parents? What were they up to?
David Graves:
Well my mum was actually, she taught elementary school in the Lafayette school district.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
David Graves:
And she, she was descended from a family that had come to... Her great-grandfather, my great-great-grandfather had come to San Francisco in 1851 from New Orleans. But he was born in Alsace-
David Graves:
So there's a, you might have stumbled into this bar in North Beach called The Saloon?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah, I know that bar. *laughs*.
David Graves:
Well that was opened originally by my great-great-grandfather in 1861 as Wagner's beer halls.
Doug Shafer:
Holy cats. Jesus.
David Graves:
So, I, I come by it honestly.
Doug Shafer:
David Graves, I, I've known you for how many years, I don't know all these things about you. Go ahead, keep telling, this is too good.
David Graves:
Well, we've never, we've never done a pub crawl in North Beach. Probably better for both of us but-
Doug Shafer:
That's good.
David Graves:
So on my wall behind me is a menu that my mother's father wrote and he and my dad, his son in law, had birthdays close together.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
David Graves:
So this was 1956, uh, and he wrote a little wine card that says, wine selection for Jim Graves and pop Wagner's birthday dinner. They drank some Liebfraumilch, remember that?
Doug Shafer:
*laughs*. Yes I do remember that.
David Graves:
They had a, they had a '46 Inglenook, 10 year old Inglenook.
Doug Shafer:
Oh wow.
David Graves:
And then they finished, and I don't know what Pop was thinking, but they finished with an Almaden Grenache Rose, which probably had a little residual sugar.
Doug Shafer:
Probably.
David Graves:
But they, I know they had had some cocktails beforehand because I still have my grandfather's Martini pitcher and Almaden was, in his reckoning, it was in Los Gagatos. He added a syllable to Los Gatos. So, and at the bottom it says "Above served in order as listed, selection by wine connoisseur Pop Wagner." So that's framed and above my desk.
Doug Shafer:
1956?
David Graves:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. That's pretty cool. Very cool.
David Graves:
And, and those Sunday dinners at my grandparents house were... You know, we'd drive over from Walnut Creek and have Sunday dinner with them and it was just a really sweet, sweet thing. And that's- That was in the Richmond district. My grandfather was in the, he worked for a wholesale hardware company called Baker and Hamilton. And this is, sounds like I'm making this up but it's true. You know when you're learning the alphabet there aren't that many words that have Z in them? You know there's Zebra, Zoo?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah.
David Graves:
And in my world there was Zinfandel. Because there were bottles of Zinfandel on the table.
Doug Shafer:
Well I was about to ask, where did the wine thing kick in? Did your parents drink wine at home or was it the Sunday meals?
David Graves:
Well it was when I was desperate and, you know, happy in Hyde Park, I decided that academic science and I would both be better off if I didn't do that. I was studying ecology and evolution and-
David Graves:
So I'm like 25 and now what. And I kind of did a little inventory of what I was really. What really floated my boat and it was going to the local wine store. And even on my little graduate student stipend, buying bottles of wine.
Doug Shafer:
I'm with you. But okay, but you had been at, this was post college. So college was Santa Cruz for you right?
David Graves:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
And that's where you did the whole biology deal?
David Graves:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
So was wine happening in college or was that beer?
David Graves:
Oh yeah, I was, I remember in our, in our dorm people looked at me funny because I'm like, "Hey try this, this Campari stuff is pretty good." I mean, I know it's not wine but-
Doug Shafer:
*laughs*.
David Graves:
You know, it's like, "Wow, bitter, weird color, what is wrong with you Graves?" But when I was in college is when I, or right after college is when I had that eye-opening Bynam, Rochioli Pinot.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
David Graves:
So I'm unhappy in Chicago in the Spring of 77 and I'm like, "Now what?" I just took a wild, like, Well hey, I could move back to California. And I investigated the wine program at Davis and you could, you could be like an extension student without actually applying to the master's program and kind of get your feet wet. That's what I did is I found a room in a house with some, a pal from Santa Cruz and that Fall quarter of 1977 I took Viticulture and Oenology 124 I think it is. Anyway, this is way long ago.
Doug Shafer:
So those were, you were doing that, that was long distance.
David Graves:
No, no, I was there living in Davis, taking the classes in Davis.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
David Graves:
And I met a whole bunch of folks, including my future business partner Dick Ward in Michael Lewis' brewing technology class.
Doug Shafer:
*laughs*. All right, so '77, people who have heard this podcast they've heard too much about my, my career. But I was at Davis but I was an undergrad and with no idea what the heck I really wanted to do, I was just doing Viticulture but uh, I got to ask you about one class because everyone was in that class. Vit 116 A and B, were you in that one?
David Graves:
That was the-
Doug Shafer:
Dr. Cook.
David Graves:
Oh yeah, no, I was there.
Doug Shafer:
You couldn't forget Dr. Cook, remember him?
David Graves:
No.
Doug Shafer:
He was a nut.
David Graves:
Well somebody who, whom I met that, that fall of 1977, he was a very good friend of mine and I just talked to him on Friday, he was his TA, Fred Peterson, who has a winery over in-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, I, I know, I remember Fred. He was a TA.
David Graves:
Fred. He was a TA, and boy, he could do a very good impression of Jim Cook. Um.
Doug Shafer:
*laughs*. Oh, because I remember that class, I think you were in it because you and Tony Soter and Kathy Corison and Dick Ward, your future partner, I think you guys were all in it. You were all in the front row. Is that, is that?
David Graves:
No, that was the year before.
Doug Shafer:
I think Randall Br-
David Graves:
That, I thin Randall Brand was maybe in it the year I was in it. But yeah I mean it was sort of - I don't mean to brag about, not about me but I mean the people that were there like John Williams, John Konnsgard, Dan Lee from -
Doug Shafer:
Right. Lee, Konnsgaard.
David Graves:
Um, yeah, I mean, Kathy, Tony Soter, I mean this is just. Tom Peterson, Fred Peterson.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
It was uh, kind of a magical time in a way. And so when I look in the mirror and I see-
Doug Shafer:
No, you were part of a crew.
David Graves:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Um, I was behind you a few years but I had Kathy in here and she put it
Doug Shafer:
And wonderful, Cathy Corison, um, what'd, what'd she say? She said it was a, it was a short ladder.
David Graves:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), yep.
Doug Shafer:
In other words, there's so many wineries just starting out, and very few "trained" or experienced wine makers. So she, and all you guys coming out, I mean, there were wine maker jobs were all over the place. You didn’t start as a cellar rat, you were the winemaker. And so, all you guys had, you know, trial under fire. Crazy times, when you think about it. And um, just some of the folks you mentioned, you know, are all fantastic, wonderful long-term winemakers. But they were the ... you were the, the, the pioneering group that really did it.
David Graves:
My first job was working for Tony at Chappellet, actually.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. Wow. Was Tony there-
David Graves:
And then-
Doug Shafer:
... or that, when was that? So were you out ... You were done with Davis at that point?
David Graves:
No, I just spent a year there. I was going to go back. And I actually did later. But I ... so I spent a, um, a year, got enough skills to be, uh, dangerous. And then, um, I worked with Tony at Chappellet.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
David Graves:
With a guy who was there whose got his own label now. It was a guy named Rick Longoria, who is down in Santa Barbara.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
David Graves:
And um, I worked at Phelps with, uh, Craig Williams and Walter Shug was a wine maker then.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I was wondering about that, if he was there when you were there. He was a character, yeah.
David Graves:
And um, Mike Fischer was the controller there. And I met Mike because he studied winemaking too, so he's sort of a double, doubled edged sword there.
Doug Shafer:
And um, was Randy Mason at Chappellet when you were there?
David Graves:
Yes he was. I'm, I'm a big fan of Randy's.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, because he was ... I think he was doing a lot of vineyard stuff. But he, uh, he was the guy that taught me. He was ... my first cellar job was working under him at the place called Lake Spring, back in '81. And uh, Randy the guy that taught me how to work the cellar, man. How to do it logistically. He was great.
David Graves:
Now where was Lake Springs?
Doug Shafer:
Lake Spring was that little place, uh, on Hoffman Lane, just south-
David Graves:
Oh okay, yep, yep.
Doug Shafer:
... North Yountville.
David Graves:
Yep, that's ... I remember being there.
Doug Shafer:
It was, for a while, and it kind of ... yeah, it, it kind of closed up after 10 or 12 years, and I think, uh, I think Joel Gott and his group own the facility and use it for making some wine. But uh-
David Graves:
But in the meantime was also were-
Doug Shafer:
So how did, so-
David Graves:
But in the meantime, was also where Michael Havens was there for a while. Before his label was sold.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, Havens was there.
David Graves:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah, he was there. You're right. Boy, it's a lot going on. So now, you met Dick Ward at Davis. And so was, was Dick running around? Were you guys, like, tracking parallel paths at different wineries? How was, how did it work out when you two got together and started a winery? I mean, that's crazy.
David Graves:
Well, it's amazing what you don't know, you can't do, or you shouldn't be able to do when you're young and, and you know, blinded by ambition, and uh, perhaps-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
... an over estimation of your own talents. So I was working at Chappellet, and Dick, uh, was working for Warren Winiarski at Stags Leap Wine Cellars in 1978. And uh, so we were housemates. And then in '79, I worked at Phelps for the harvest, and he was ... he did a harvest down in Santa Barbara county. And then in 1980, I worked at, uh, Chandon as a cellar rat for their harvest, thanks to Dawnine Dyer… And in sort of a weird way of word was getting around, I ended up helping Pine Ridge bottle his first vintage. So that's when we met-
Doug Shafer:
That was, that was Gary Andrus, right?
David Graves:
Gary and Nancy, right. And so ... and then, so, 1981, it's like, "Hey, let's, let's put out, put out our own label." So that's where Dick and I made our first vintage.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
David Graves:
And what turned into Saintsbury.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, you made it at Pine Ridge?
David Graves:
It was made at Pine Ridge, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
What'd you do for grapes?
David Graves:
Well, we, we uh, I had met, uh, Zack Berkowitz, um, at Chandon, and so we bought some of Zach's grapes, which are right here at Carneros, right here at the winery, Rancho Carneros Vineyard. Thanks to Dawnine, I had met the Sangiacomo family, so our first Chardonnay was from their Green Acres Vineyard, which is still there. We make a wine that's from the original 1969 Garden A block, at Green Acres.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
David Graves:
Which was the first ... the, the Sangiacomo’s were pear growers. And this was their first foray into wine, into wine grapes, was at Green Acres.
Doug Shafer:
I didn't know they ... I didn't know they, you know, they grew pears.
David Graves:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
That's amazing.
David Graves:
They had a ... if you can believe this, sort of the total opposite end of, of wine-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
... they grew pears for canning. Talk about a commodity business.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) To those of you who don't know, the Sangiacomos are some of the best grape growers in this area, in the Sonoma. And how many, how many ... they must have hundreds and hundreds of acres of grapes, don't they, David? How many do they have?
David Graves:
You know, I think it's, it's probably close to 1000 spread over various parts. I mean, they got, they got a property up in, uh, Petaluma Gap, they got property-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
David Graves:
... in Lakeville near the Petaluma River. Lot of, lot of grapes around, um, the town of Sonoma.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
And um, they were actually leaders in creating the Carneros AVA, which was, Treasury uh, --
Doug Shafer:
Which was one of the first ones, that's one of the first ones. That's one of the first, right.
David Graves:
... in 1983.
Doug Shafer:
So you guys custom crush your first ... what was your vintage, '81?
David Graves:
'81.
Doug Shafer:
And then, um, did you, did you build the winery right away, or did that take a few years?
David Graves:
No, no, we had, uh, we had a, you know that beautiful little, uh, stone cube up on Ehlers Lane?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
David Graves:
Well, that was, uh, that, it was a winery called Vichon that had moved out of that, and we moved in. And it had a ... was kind of, it was an amazing situation, because it ... for whatever reason, it had its own ... you kind of leased it with its own, uh, refrigeration system. So-
Doug Shafer:
Right, good.
David Graves:
What we had to do was sort of have a couple tanks and lease a forklift and get some barrels and we had a de-stemmer, and we, um, bought a used press. And we were in business as our own self-
Doug Shafer:
Holy cats, I didn't know you were up there. So you, you were up on Ehlers Lane, which is north of St. Helena, right?
David Graves:
Yep. So ...
Doug Shafer:
And how long, how long were you guys there? Quite a while?
David Graves:
Well, we would have been there longer, but um, the landlord decided that he's seen a couple ... this ... we were, like, the third tenants in that building. So he decided this looked like fun, and so he would get in the wine business. So we only had a one year lease.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
David Graves:
So ... so, um, the smart thing to do would have been to, to find another custom crush facility. But ...
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
... that's not what we did. So we ended up ... we built the winery during harvest.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
David Graves:
Let that sink in for a minute.
Doug Shafer:
Come on, guys. Come on.
David Graves:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I'm thinking, I'm thinking of you and Dick. Both of you.
David Graves:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
I mean, come on, guys. What are you thinking? What are you thinking here? (laughs)
David Graves:
So, um, and, and we were-
Doug Shafer:
Oh man. What a mess.
David Graves:
... like, living from hand to mouth in terms of financing that construction and, uh ... yeah, it was ... We hired our first French intern, whose family was from Burgundy. And, um ...
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
David Graves:
It was Frederick Hertzog. And our first employee was Bill Knuttel, who's gone onto fame and fortune.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
David Graves:
He's got a winery facility over on Eighth Street East in Sonoma, and he's ...
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
He was the winemaker for, uh, Chalk Hill, and um, yeah. He's had ...
Doug Shafer:
Worked, yeah, he worked for Dave Ramey for years.
David Graves:
... does a lot of work in Dry Creek. So uh, imagine also we decided that ... I think I remember saying, "Well, once you hit 100% of insanity, it, you know, there's no 11 on insanity."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
David Graves:
So we actually helped make wine for, uh, Hagafen that year and the next year. So um, uh ...
Doug Shafer:
You were custom crushing other people's grapes and you were still-
David Graves:
Right.
Doug Shafer:
... trying to build the winery and do your own grapes.
David Graves:
Even though we really didn't have a ... we didn't have a bonded winery license, really.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) no, you didn't have a license. (laughs)
David Graves:
So imagine-
Doug Shafer:
Oh gosh, I can't believe it.
David Graves:
Imagine ... we, we have a meeting down at the BATF's office on Market Street in San Francisco, and the guy that ... you know, we've sort of gone up the food chain there, because we feel like-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
David Graves:
... I can't believe you guys made a bunch of, in effect, moonshine, because it wasn't-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
David Graves:
... you didn't have a bond, you know, didn't, you're, I mean, you'd apply for one but you didn't have one. And so, I remember distinctly the BATF guy saying, "Well, we don't want to be like jack booted Nazis and make you throw all this stuff out, but it's really moonshine." And I'm like ...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Oh my gosh. Oh, I can't believe it.
David Graves:
So we sort of-
Doug Shafer:
What'd they do?
David Graves:
You know-
Doug Shafer:
What'd they do to you? What happened?
David Graves:
Well, we got a bond and, you know, all the stuff was, sort of ... they waved a magic wand and it was produced and bottled by Saintsbury and, uh, uh, that was my first exposure to Stewart's law of retroaction, which is, uh, the formal name for forgiveness is easier to get than permission. So-
Doug Shafer:
Aha.
David Graves:
... we get forgiveness.
Doug Shafer:
Well, I'm going to, I'm going to circle back to that when we talk about your days on the planning commission. But I love that. So you got permission. That was vintage. That was '83 harvest, and so-
David Graves:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
... you had a building. You crushed grapes. You made wine. You're legal.
David Graves:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
You're still selling wine, and things are, things are going okay, yeah?
David Graves:
Yep. We found a, uh, wholesale broker that sort of set up our three-tier network around the country. We didn't have any of our own vineyards, but we had ... the, the parcel where are has, uh, uh, 12 and a half acres worth of space for vineyards. And so, we took a long time to figure out what to do, which was pretty great in a way, because we got a lot of help from our friend Dave Addlesheim up in Oregon, who's-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
David Graves:
... a extremely thoughtful ... he's just wise. I mean, I, I don't have a better word for it.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
But he's also very generous and a lot of fun to be around. And so, a bud would ... of our, of our, uh, Pommard Pinot Noir block came from his vineyard. I went up and literally cut the canes in the wintertime and we came down and, and um, brought them back, and they were the basis of this first, uh, vineyard that we had, that we still have, which is also one of the first vertically trellised vineyards, if not the first vertically trellised vineyard, in the Napa Valley. And the reason that's important is there was, uh, because as, as, and you've probably talked about this, the whole AXR thing, and the ... made it so that the vineyard ... was kind of a big change in how people thought about vineyards in the late 80s and early 90s, because we had to.
Doug Shafer:
Right, because replants.
David Graves:
Uh ... right. And the reason this vineyard is still here is we were being contrarians. Dick and I did not plant it on AXR one root stock, because that was too easy.
Doug Shafer:
Aha.
David Graves:
So it's, it's on five-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
David Graves:
... speed 110R. I call it the ‘don't laugh it’s paid for’ vineyard
Doug Shafer:
You guys.
David Graves:
... vineyard.
Doug Shafer:
There you go. Oh, you guys. You two. Speak of be, being contrarians, I got to ask you, because you know, '83, I was just getting into it. I was just starting here at Shafer. You know, I didn't know anything. But, but I can't ... you know, I know Pinot is ... Chard's always been pretty popular. It's great. It's great grape. It's a beautiful wine. It's kind of a no ... not a no brainer, but I mean, it's a, it's ... it is what it is. But you know, Pinot noir these days is very popular and, and God bless all you folks making Pinot noir. But you know, David Graves, for a long time, Pinot noir was not the, you know, not the ... as popular as, as it is now. And you guys went into this thing, thing contrarians that you are, you know chardonnay and Pinot noir with Pinot noir really leading the way. And it's like, it's kind of like, "What were you guys thinking?" Because Pinot was a tough sell, unless I'm wrong. But help me on that one. What, what, what was going on with you two knuckleheads?
David Graves:
Well, knucklehead ... actually, that's a great name. Maybe that's a brand name we haven't explored.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) I don't have it trademarked, so go for it, man.
David Graves:
So um, the first wine Dick and I made together was a really delicious wine from Stags Leap. Nathan Fay Cabernet.
Doug Shafer:
Did you guys used to go down pick grapes for Nathan when you were at Davis? And he'd, he, he got you -
David Graves:
We, thanks to Johnny Konnsgard, a bunch of us-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughs)
David Graves:
... Jack ... oh, I forgot to mention Jack Stewart. Sorry, Jack.
Doug Shafer:
Jack Stewart at Silverado. Yeah.
David Graves:
So Jack, Mike Fisher, I think Tom Peterson, Johnny Konnsgard, maybe Doug Nall. Sorry Doug, didn't mention you either.
Doug Shafer:
John Williams, maybe John Williams maybe? Is it John Williams? No.
David Graves:
Maybe ... no, I think John was up in ... in '78, I think he was maybe in, uh, New York briefly.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, he was out ... you're right, he was in New York. I think you're right.
David Graves:
So, so Johnny, um, sort of arranged for each of us to get a half a ton of Nate's ... I don't even know which vineyard it was of his. But it was, um, intoxicating figuratively, and sometimes literally. To make wine. I was like, "Whoa." So ...
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
David Graves:
Dick and I made a barrel's worth. A half a ton, plus enough for topping.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
Of, uh, Nate Fay Cabernet, and God, it was good. I mean, I'm, I'm ... still sort of in awe of it, because it's kind of like better lucky than smart, because obviously-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
... 40, this will be my 40th vintage. No, my 42nd vintage, excuse me, coming up. So ... I've learned a few things since the first one. But you know, that, there's that same ... that, that bit of culture is always ... you know, the vineyards guys always say, the wine guys, "We do all the work. Don't screw it up." And for whatever reason-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
... we didn't, we didn't screw it up. And um, so that was our first wine. And it was ... we, you know, we-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
David Graves:
... had a really nice label design by the guy who's, uh, still our label designer, and um, that's a whole other story. So then we made another wine. We made a cabernet. But '80, '79 was a much less good vintage in the sense it has one of those scorcher heat spells about two weeks before the grapes were ripe.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
And the vines just sort of said, "Screw it." So um, that year we made a dry Riesling from Sanford and Benedict, because Dick was down in ... in Santa Barbara County. I mean, we were-
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
David Graves:
... we were doing all kinds of weird stuff. But not, not commercially.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Right, okay.
David Graves:
So when it came time to start Saintsbury, we kind of looked at each other like, "Well, what's really, you know, what's a ... how could we really make a difference in a, in a category that's not very well populated?" And Pinot noir was ...
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
David Graves:
... the choice we made. And as you pointed out, Doug, looking at the, at the shelves in the liquor store now, really there weren't many Pinot noirs then. And you know, probably knew pretty much everybody, at least by name-
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah.
David Graves:
... like, they were not necessarily as colleagues I knew them. I pretty much knew everybody who made Pinot Noir. And it was-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
David Graves:
... still from Santa Barbara to Willamette Valley, but ...
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
... there were, like, three in each of those places, not 30. You know, so you had, uh ...
Doug Shafer:
But you ... so you were, you were swimming upstream, but you guys did it, because I think maybe you were onto something, too, because there weren't that many out there. And if you were making a decent wine, which you guys did, I mean, hey, it's a solid wine. It's a good Pinot, Saintsbury. Go to. It's, you know, it's been my go to for years, so there you go.
David Graves:
Well, and it's, uh-
Doug Shafer:
I think, un- unless I'm missing something.
David Graves:
Well, we've, we've, uh, we had a brief foray into making some really delicious but really hard to sell Syrah. Um, but otherwise, that's pretty much what we've done-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
David Graves:
Is Pinot Noir and Chardonnay. And um ... but ... in the way that these, these two cocky young guys, um, they built a winery during harvest, who does that? That's crazy. Um ...
Doug Shafer:
A, a couple, a couple of knuckleheads, I'm going to ...
David Graves:
Yeah, knucklehead cellars.
Doug Shafer:
No, no. But ...
David Graves:
So how did we get the name Saintsbury?
Doug Shafer:
... and so Carneros, did, did you guys go after ... Yeah, how'd you get the name? Yeah, that's another point. Where'd that one come from?
David Graves:
So there's sort of ... So you got two ... You've identified Carneros, and Saintsbury-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
... are like parts of our identify that are just, they're joined at the hip. Well, Carneros was because Dick was still living in Davis, and Carneros
David Graves:
So-
David Graves:
... there's about as far as made sense to drive, so...
Doug Shafer:
Oh okay, good point. (laughs)
David Graves:
Well, we actually did make some wine from Western Sonoma County that Warren Dutton had grown in 82’.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
David Graves:
…but we sort of shrank our radius back to Carneros and in, in, in neighborhood back in '83, and we stayed with that until...
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
David Graves:
... uh, the mid-2000s, when we, we started to make wine from Anderson Valley and, so now we think of ourselves as based in Carneros, not necessarily of Carneros, not from Carneros, quite the same way.
Doug Shafer:
But I, but I, I love the fact that the reason you landed in Carneros wasn't anything to do with it's a cool climate for Pinot and Chard, it was mostly because Dick didn't want to drive any farther. (laughs)
David Graves:
Well, it actually...
Doug Shafer:
Well, I'm not, I'm oversimplifying of course -
David Graves:
... your point's well-taken, though, because, I mean it is a really good place for Chardonnay and Pinot Noir, as you g... As...
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
You know about the Chardonnay world but...
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).Yeah.
David Graves:
Um, it's one of those things where we did everything kind of backwards, 'cause instead of starting with high-concept, here's the label concept, here's the brand identity...
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
You know, the way stuff, the way people tell you to do stuff... We totally didn't do it that way, such that we're gonna move into that facility in... We, you know, we made our first vintage there at, at Pine Ridge. We're gonna move into the facility at Ehlers Lane. The guys at, at that winery, Vichon, they had a bottling line and they said, "Well, we'll bottle it for you...
Doug Shafer:
Yeah (laughs)
David Graves:
... But you have to tell a..." you know, and so we made the labels that, you know, back in the... You remember, back with wet glue. You know, you had the...
Doug Shafer:
Oh, yeah.
David Graves:
The label... You had to have the label thing that was the right size, so our label...
Doug Shafer:
Oh, it was nuts.
David Graves:
… was the same size as their label.
Doug Shafer:
Right, I see, right, 'cause that's the label. Yeah.
David Graves:
And then, um, checking down to getting label approval (laughs) and-
Doug Shafer:
I mean (laughs)-
David Graves:
and getting a name, and we're like, "Oh, yeah, the, the, what, yeah, the name. What are we gonna call this thing?" You know. It's the name (laughing) and, "Oh, that's not so good."
Doug Shafer:
Dick and Dave's. Double Ds
David Graves:
Graves and Ward? That sounds like a couple of accountants. Uh-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs) Good point.
David Graves:
We went through a whole bunch of-
Doug Shafer:
I guess so.
David Graves:
... names and, um, so finally it was, uh, a- an acquaintance of Dick's who said, becoming aware of the, our problem, he said, "Well, why don't you name it after George Saintsbury?" And George Saintsbury is a English literary critic and scholar who is remembered nowadays for his book, uh, called 'Notes on a Cellar Book', which he wrote when he retired from being literary critic and a professor, but, you know ... You know, my joke about this is after extensive focus group work ... not.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs) Oh.
David Graves:
We, we kind of looked at each other and said, "Well, you got a better idea?" "Mm, not really." "Okay, let's pull the trigger on that." So, um (laughing) we ended up...
Doug Shafer:
It's a great name.
David Graves:
No, it's a, it's a great name and we're very proud of honoring George and, uh, again, in the, in the (laughs) ... Our label designer, the guy who's done all of our graphic design work, is somebody I met in 1972 when I was 20 years old 'cause we were drinking tequila sunrises because he was going out with a woman that lived in the house I lived in, so, so Jim Walcottaris and I go back, ooh, 48 years. Yikes.
Doug Shafer:
I've, I, I've, I've crossed paths with Jim before. He ... great guy.
David Graves:
Oh, no, he's a wonderful guy
Doug Shafer:
- long time.
David Graves:
... and he and I share a passion for wine, booze, and baseball, so.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
David Graves:
What's not to like about that, right?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah (laughs).
David Graves:
And he's, he's a lot of fun, fun...
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, you got me thinking. My graphics guy, Michael Kavish, based in, up in Oregon, I met him sophomore year at U.C. Davis, which was 19- holy cats, 1976, '77, and he's been our guy forever. He was great. Enough. Wow.
David Graves:
Well, I think it's...
Doug Shafer:
Blast from the past.
David Graves:
So like a lot of things where, if you can communicate, if you sort of understand each other at some kinda non-verbal level where 'cause sometimes wine people aren't very good at expressing what they wanna do.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
I'd like it to have this feeling, of da-da-daa, and Jim's been very good at, uh, capturing those feelings and turning them into, uh, you know, real labels, real graphic language, yeah. But we make a dry rosé, not a very important part of what we do but we started making it during the really terrible vintage of 1989 by doing what's called saignée, where you draw out juice from a...
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
David Graves:
... fermentor. Though the purpose was to make better red wine, not to make Rosé but you're sort of left with this juice, what're you gonna do with it so we, we fermented it and the Burgundian call dry Rosé, Vin Gris. So we go to Jim and we say well we gotta new label, a new product that we need a label for, so he mocks up one that looks like our other labels, just has correct information on it, but then he says, "Now, work with, with me on this, I've got this idea, how about we call it Vincent Vin Gris?" And Dick and I looked at him like ‘what?’ And he said, "No, no, no, work with me here, I gotta, I got an illustrator named Bill Shields and I think he can do a rendering, uh, pastel rendering in a winery that'll look like that other Vincent guy and I think it'll be kinda fun." And so we ran with that, and so now we have Vincent Vin Gris and I've literally had people say, looking at this label they say, "Oh, I saw that in Amsterdam, at the museum." I'm like, ooh, where were you before that, I don't know, you know what else you did in Amsterdam.`
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
David Graves:
So Jim invented this whole backstory for Vincent Vin Gris' biography and, eh.
Doug Shafer:
Oh that's fun.
David Graves:
A lot of fun, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So switching gears, um, your bride Elizabeth, when did you guys meet and get together, what's, what's, what's that story?
David Graves:
Well, we didn't used to have any hospitality program at all, I mean...
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
David Graves:
... 'Cause we didn't have any staff, we didn't really know what to do so, we weren't open on the weekends for people to come visit, so, I got a call from a, a mutual friend, who just passed away last October. Stellar wine merchant and a great poet and somebody I also shared baseball with, um.
Doug Shafer:
Mm.
David Graves:
So, uh, his name was Bill Mayer and he worked at a really great wine store in San Francisco called Pacific Wine Company, you probably remember them, you probably...
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
Sold wine to them. The had world's greatest...
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, we have.
David Graves:
Wacky covers, wacky wine story catalog covers. So...
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
David Graves:
He... Bill called me and he said, "Hey, I've got somebody I know who wants to come up for a wine tour, um, would you be available to entertain six people on Saturday, blah, blah, blah?". I said, "Oh, sure." Cause I was, you know I was single and didn't have a lot going on in terms of tying me down to a schedule so, uh...
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
The woman, who is now my bride, Elizabeth McKinney, came up here with her then boyfriend, which I always remind her of, um.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) I love it.
David Graves:
And, um, so showed them around the place in 1986, which she then somehow word reached her that we were having our fifth birthday party, which was really kind of an invitation event but she didn’t know that, so she came with another guy, uh...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
David Graves:
This has been like four months later and, um... though she was very impressed that I remembered her name but then she realized that I'm pretty good at remembering peoples names, so she's like, "Oh, that wasn't that special, jeez", but anyway, um, so Bill introduced us and then she introduced Bill to her sister and so they, they were married so, kind of a nice reciprocal thing.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's nice.
David Graves:
So, um, yeah we got married right here at the winery in 1990 and we live in in Old Town, Napa. The Victorian neighborhood of Napa. She's a, an artist, has a BFA and an MFA and has a studio in, uh, town of Benicia which is about
Doug Shafer:
Yeah I was gonna ask you 'cause I, I wasn't sure if she was in Napa or somewhere else, so she's based in Benicia for her gallery.
David Graves:
Yeah, she's, she's got a great studio in the, it's in the Benicia Arsenal Building, which is, a lot of it has been repurposed as artist studios, so. It’s about...
Doug Shafer:
Cool.
David Graves:
Well, it's about half an hour on a good day like today 'cause nobodys driving but, um...
Doug Shafer:
I mean yeah I can seriously get around the Valley really fast right now there's just nobody on the roads. Um a lot of folks don't know what you've been doing besides making wine. But, um, through the years, David Graves, you've been on the Land Trust Board, the Land Trust, those who don't know is a wonderful local organization that puts uh, lands, wild land into Conservation Easements, you were the president. Been on the board of the Oxbow School uh, the water... also the Watershed Conservation Council, but the one that really stood out was back, I think it was in the early, late ninet... late '90s, you joined the Napa County Planning Commission as a local dude on the Planning Commission, which was crazy 'cause I think I remember going up in front of you for some use-permit change. But it, I, you and I never talked too much about, I think it was a wonderful experience for you but it had to be kinda crazy? Crazy challenging, crazy wild, what was, what was going on with that whole thing?
David Graves:
I had, um, 'cause of my interest in ecology and evolution, the science-y part of it, uh, I'm very interested in kinda things like, how the, habitat preservation for critters and making it so that our footprint is as light as it can be on the land and...
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
...I was, uh, I got to know the guy who was then a city council member but is now the supervisor for where I live in, in the county and so Brad Wagenknecht asked me if would entertain the idea of being on the Planning Commission 'cause each supervisor nominates one person to be on the five, there's five supervisors and so there's five members of the Planning Commission, and the Planning Commission is a, there's a lot of the sort of the work of land use administration in, well, almost city in Cal... In every city in Cali, in California but Napa's is particularly important because of our history with the Ag Preserve, the so-called Agricultural Preserve.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
The idea that we would not subdivide and spread all over the Valley which was you know kind of in danger of happening back in the, in the, you know, during the boom years of the '60s and, um...
Doug Shafer:
'60s right.
David Graves:
So, I got on the Planning Commission, late '90s and I was on it six and a half years and, you know, there's some, some high notes and some low notes of hearings, um, (laughs). A lot of, a lot of controversial stuff ends up in front of the planning commission and...
Doug Shafer:
Right, some of you, some of the folks are neigh... your neighbors and your fellow vintners and uh, you know.
David Graves:
Yeah and, I never gave anybody a break 'cause they were a colleague, at least I don't think I did.
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
David Graves:
And sometimes I think people were kinda disappointed that I didn't do that but the other part is 'cause I, you know, running a winery I know stuff like wastewater and, you know, truck trips and, you know, just a, the, kind of the nuts and bolts that... ... Was, I could ask questions that really nobody else could ask, um, not because I'm smarter than anybody just cause I've my day job.
Doug Shafer:
Exactly
David Graves:
So …
Doug Shafer:
Being on the Planning Commission, you know when, back when you were there, even today, it's tough 'cause you're getting it, you gotta make those hard calls and but you gotta think about, you know the greater good, not that you wanna get on a soapbox or anything right now but that's, that's what, you know, that's what keeps me going every day, um.
David Graves:
Well I think you're, you know and I think that, you know, you've got a good neighborhood in Stags Leap it seems to me. In terms of your...
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah.
David Graves:
... colleagues being, you know, generally embodying that spirit that you're talking about, there's, um I remember something that was, something Hugh Johnson wrote in a book that I read when I was really getting excited about wine when I was in Chicago and it's, it has a very simple title, it's called, "Wine" and...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
David Graves:
I think in the introduction or the first chapter, you know he's talking about the history of wine, but he says, "All wine starts at sap up a stick" and...
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
Which is to say, you know, it's agriculture, it's farming, it's, it's an annual cycle that every year is different but there's been 5,000 of them, or 6,000 of them before, of vintages, of, where humans have made wine and it's sort of a equivalent of putting your pants on one leg at a time I think, that statement.
Doug Shafer:
Right
David Graves:
And, you know, I think we're, I realize that when I say things like I remember when its one step away from ‘get off my lawn’ but you know...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs).
David Graves:
The technology has come so far, I mean we understand so much more about things like, you know, soils and you know, root systems and irrigation and pest control and you know, nutrition for the vines and, but it's always focused, I think on wine quality but it, nowadays, I think it's also focused on you know, conserving resources like water, make sure that our...
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
You know, the people who come after us will not be thinking what, ‘god what were they thinking, these people...’
Doug Shafer:
What were they thinking, yeah.
David Graves:
‘Back in 2020.’
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
David Graves:
So, um, and that's what, you know, when I think about things that like uh, human impacts on climate and prospects of growing wine grapes in a different environment than the one I grew up in, that's a ... really serious challenge that I think we need to take seriously, but I don't think we can be defeated by it, or crushed by the prospect that we have a, uh, a changing environment. I mean, we have to take responsibility for our part of being very careful about a, a light footprint in terms of, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
... carbon dioxide emissions, greenhouse gases, but there's going to be a fine wine industry in Napa. It just might not be the same one that I grew up with in 1978.
Doug Shafer:
Uh, you know, lately, the last couple of weeks have been challenging for everybody, but, uh, it's been nice here locally, but, and it's probably happening across the country. It's springtime. Leaves are starting to bud out. Flowers are starting to bloom a little bit. Uh, grape vines are starting to bud. We've had a couple of frost nights last week where the wind machines were on, and all of a sudden, at 3:00 AM, you hear that hum of that distant wind machine. It's like, "Oh, it's a frost night. Someone's out controlling, you know, the fans that we are ... the, the new buds don't freeze," and that's, uh ... It's comforting. It really is. Um, I, I, 'cause these here are some crazy times right now. It's just nice to have, to see the, to see the new growth on the vines and hear those wind machines at night. It's like, you know, like, life will continue -
David Graves:
And one of the great things ... Have you been able to dig into some wines that you've had and, you know, spend some time with them that you might not o-otherwise have done in the last weeks?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I have actually.
David Graves:
Got time on your hands?
Doug Shafer:
It's funny you mention that. Yeah, because it's time on your hands, it's like, you know, "What am I saving this wine for? You know, it's a 15-year-old Hillside, let's try this. Ooo, that's good," you know, stuff like that.
David Graves:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Um, I found a couple of ... I found a couple of old Burgundies, which, you know, I didn't know I had. It's like, "What am I waiting ... What am I waiting around for this?" So, how about you? What, what have you found that's yummy?
David Graves:
Well, I, uh, one of my, one of my young team, we have some wines from our cellar. I think today is Open Your Cellar day, today and tomorrow, for the Napa vintners, where you offer wines that are-
Doug Shafer:
Oh that's right, yeah. [crosstalk 00:59:14]
David Graves:
... not-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
David Graves:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
So, I got a, uh, email from one of my staff saying, "Well tell me, uh, what you think of the 2007 Stanly Ranch and the 2009 Brown Ranch." And I hadn't had the Brown Ranch recently, but I had the, uh, the Stanly Ranch earlier this month, and, um, I had it at lunch with, um, in San Francisco. It's kind of like it's ... It seems like so long ago. It's, like, four weeks ago tomorrow, I think, but, um-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.
David Graves:
Anyway, it was, uh, it was one of those things where I was not trying to sell this wine to the person I was drinking it with. I just wanted her to-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
This is kind of like what we do, it's a point of departure to talk about what we do at Saintsbury, you know, all the kind of the things-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
... we've been talking about, and I had to, you know, pull the cork, and I was pretty confident it was gonna be good, but it, I really-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
David Graves:
... I just had to stop for a minute, and I thought, "Damn. This is, this is kind of why winemakers make wine, is for moments like this when you think it embodies, uh, a well-aged version of what we're trying to do," 'cause, a lot of times, we're selling wine that you're saying, "Well, boy, in five years, this could be really good." I don't think-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
You know?
Doug Shafer:
[crosstalk 01:00:37], yeah.
David Graves:
Brewers don't have that problem, but, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughs) That challenge. It's a challenge.
David Graves:
Yeah, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Um .
David Graves:
You know, that's like when you were pulling the cork on that Hillside Select, it was like, "Damn."
Doug Shafer:
Oh, no, it's, it's fun. It, it, I don't do it very often, but when I do, it's like, "Wow. This is, it's really good. It's a 20-year-old Hillside. It's really pretty." It's like, yeah, you take a moment and go, "Yeah. This is why we do what we do."
David Graves:
And a lot of it, I think, Doug, is, um, there's, there's mystery in it, too, 'cause y-you and I don't, you know, it get back to the dance on one leg at a time thing. We're not driving-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
David Graves:
... the bus. We're trying not to screw up.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Right. I mean, do you feel like you got it all together? You feel like you, you got it nailed down? You got all the answers?
David Graves:
No.
Doug Shafer:
Right now?
David Graves:
Never.
Doug Shafer:
No? No?
David Graves:
Never felt that.
Doug Shafer:
Never have?
David Graves:
And-
Doug Shafer:
Never felt that.
David Graves:
... but I think I, I am smarter-
Doug Shafer:
... I don't think I ever will.
David Graves:
Well, when we have interns-
Doug Shafer:
I think you're smarter. I think you-
David Graves:
But it's kind of like how far ... You, you're smarter, but how much more could you learn? It's like, wow. You only have what, 45-
Doug Shafer:
I know …
David Graves:
... vintages as a, as a winemaker, which is kind of, I think, that's why tradition informs winemaking, uh, historically, is 'cause, you know, y-you only have-
Doug Shafer:
Yep.
David Graves:
You have a finite number of chances, but, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Right. See you should have been a chef, 'cause you got 365 shots in a year. (laughs)
David Graves:
Well, yeah, I m- (laughs), yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Every night, baby.
David Graves:
Yeah, you-
Doug Shafer:
Every night. (laughing)
David Graves:
You know, you burn the sauce, it's like, "Well, okay, let's start over."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I've-
David Graves:
I mean, I'm-
Doug Shafer:
Let's start over.
David Graves:
I'm not ma-, I'm not making f-, light of the ch-challenges of, of, uh-
Doug Shafer:
No, I know. Either-
David Graves:
... preparing the food, but-
Doug Shafer:
... either am I. Either am I. Um-
David Graves:
... but it is, uh, it, it is a, I mean, it's a source of wonder to me, though.
Doug Shafer:
Yep.
David Graves:
And I think if, if you kind of lose ... If a winemaker loses that excitement, it's probably time to-
Doug Shafer:
Time to hang it up.
David Graves:
... to move on to ... Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Making beer you know, that's, but that's important, too. Hey, um, you wanna bring something up? It might be a tough one for you, but when you mentioned older wines, you guys had a tough gig in October ... Was it October 2005?
David Graves:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
In terms of the wi-, the, the arson fire, was a wine warehouse, and it was a ... You guys lost a lot of wine, right? Is that ... Were you guys involved in that?
David Graves:
Yeah. Um, it happened I was driving-
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
David Graves:
It was, the warehouse was in, on Mare Island, and it happened I was driving down 80 to go to see my, my uncle, who was great guy and somebody I was very close to. He was my mother's next older brother, born in 1910. So, it's-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
... uh, we were driving down ... I'm driving down to see him, and there's this plume of smoke blowing across 80.
Doug Shafer:
Oh man, you saw it.
David Graves:
... and I'm like, "Wow. That's a big fire. I wonder, wonder whose stuff is getting (laughs) destroyed."
Doug Shafer:
Oh no, (laughs) no, no, no.
David Graves:
So, um ... so we lost a lot of our library, uh, 'cause that's what was down in that warehouse-
Doug Shafer:
Your library, okay.
David Graves:
... not our regular production wine, but this is a ... I think it speaks a lot about my late business partner's character, that his reaction to it was, in the biggest sense, he's ... I mean, it was a big pain in the ass, of course. Luckily, it was insured-
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
David Graves:
... but, uh, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
David Graves:
... he said, in the biggest picture sense, one of the wisest comments I've ever heard anybody make about, uh, a loss like that, it's just, "Well, I guess we'll just have to make some more history."
Doug Shafer:
Ah. Oh, oh, oh. (laughs)
David Graves:
You know, you can't ... You know. You're not going to go back-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
David Graves:
... and re-, you can't rewind the spool-
Doug Shafer:
No.
David Graves:
... of time and r-, somehow recreate a wine that's 15 or 20 years old, but, you know, we've made ... Like, that 2007 Stanly Ranch I was talking about, that was made two years-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
... after the fire, and lo and behold, now it's history. You know?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
David Graves:
You wait long enough, there it is.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. There it is, and you had it. You had that m-, and you had that moment-
David Graves:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
... which, which are really priceless. They're the best. They're the best moments.
David Graves:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, and your former partner, Dick Ward, uh, one of the wisest guys I've ever known, and we lost him in 2017, and it was a, it was a wreck. It was a mess. It was just, ah, tough to describe, and, uh, you're carrying on, and, um-
David Graves:
Well, I, you know, I, I, uh-
Doug Shafer:
I'm sure changed a lot.
David Graves:
On Wednesday ... I, I've been a, a blood bank donor for a long time. Uh-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
... long before, uh, Dick's illness, and it happens that, uh, he had a, a, a bone marrow disease, and he went through-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
... a lot of platelets, and what I do at the blood bank is I'm a platelet donor, which is to say they, they take your blood, and platelets are one of the components of your blood. You've got red blood cells, white blood cells, and platelets, and plasma-
Doug Shafer:
Right, [crosstalk 01:06:10].
David Graves:
... and so they take your blood and put it through a centrifuge, which sounds weird, but that's what they do, and they, they give you back-
Doug Shafer:
Hmm.
David Graves:
... your red cells and they take platelets, which are what cause your blood to clot. So-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
... that, that's a really important function, and then they also take plasma, 'cause a lot of ... That's also useful for people with various blood diseases or other conditions. So, it's a-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
... two hours, um, and-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
David Graves:
... uh, every time I do it, there's a little voice in my head that says, "This one's for you, buddy." Um, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Hmm. Hmm.
David Graves:
... we're coming up on, uh, three years that he's been gone.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
David Graves:
It's, you know, it's a small thing I can do periodically just to sort of touch base with, with those memories-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
David Graves:
... and just telling stories, you know? Um, that's how, in our, in our years and years of making ... I mean, we made 20, no, 39 vintages of wine together.
Doug Shafer:
Well, yeah.
David Graves:
Starting in '78 and going to, to, uh, 2016. Uh-
Doug Shafer:
I mean, you know, you've got, we could probably talk, you were probably, you could talk for 24 hours, you know? The, the year that the press blew up, the year that the, you know, the bearing got thrown on the forklift, and we had to pitchfork it, and go on and on and on and on. I mean, right?
David Graves:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Like, you got, you got a million of them, yeah.
David Graves:
And, and, can you believe we hired so-and-so? I mean, I, I feel like we've been very-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
David Graves:
We've been very lucky in terms of the people that we worked with here, but, you know, you, if, uh, you do it for long enough, there's some people-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
David Graves:
... that are like, "Oof. Boy, that wasn't a good idea." Um-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Oh, David -
David Graves:
But on the other hand, you know, we've, we've got, we've got, you know, uh, alumni, you know, people that have worked here that have gone on to do really great things-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
... like Bill. Byron Kosuge worked with Bill, and when, then when after Bill-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
... moved on, he was our winemaker. Uh, we've had interns like Remi Cohen who's, uh, uh, doing great things at Cliff Lede. Uh-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, Remi's great. She, she's, yeah. She's my neighbor up here. She's super.
David Graves:
Yep. So, um-
Doug Shafer:
Uh, so, Saintsbury, so Saintsbury today, 40 years later, lots of changes, but still, still chardonnay and Pinot, and a little rosé, right?
David Graves:
Yep, and, uh, we, our geographic reach is a little bigger, uh, as I said. We're-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
David Graves:
... we've got Petaluma Gap, we've got Anderson Valley, we got Sonoma Coast, we got Russian River. Uh, we even made a wine from the Santa Cruz mountains that's, I have to say, pretty damn good.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, neat.
David Graves:
Um ... so it's a great way to ... You know, if you have this ... I think we have some insight into what Pinot Noir does, and I wouldn't say we're masters at this, just because I don't think you're ever a master at it, but, um-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
... we can take that expertise and apply it to different, different terroirs, different places, and so-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
... what I like to say is, "It's ... When ... If I pour two glasses of wine, they could be from 500 yards apart or they could be from, you know, 100 m-miles apart." I'll say, "Well-"
Doug Shafer:
Right.
David Graves:
"... we're gonna have a 500-word compare and contrast essay, and I'm going to pass out the blue books here, and you'll have 50 minutes to tell me w-, you know, compare the wines, contrast, tell me why they're different," and what I always tell people is, "What ..." Y-y-you know, a lot of times, I'm sure people ask you this, Doug. "What's your favorite wine, or-"
Doug Shafer:
Right. Right.
David Graves:
"... why, you know ..." and, and I'm like, "Well, I can tell you what my wine that I like right now is, but I don't know that, uh ... I mean, it might be informative for me to tell you sort of what a particular site does over time in my experience, but, ultimately-"
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
"... what you, the wine drinker, thinks is the most important because you're the one experiencing the wine for yourself. I can't experience it for you. That's the great thing about wine."
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
"... one of the many great things about wine."
Doug Shafer:
W-well, it's, it's subjective. It's all about, it's, it's, it's one's, it's one's personal experience with something, and, and it's not the same for anyone else, but you.
David Graves:
And I learn stuff when I talk to guests-
Doug Shafer:
So-
David Graves:
They, I learn stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Yeah, 'cause they, they come, uh, they come from a, from a totally different place, uh, wonderful places, actually, because they're not so wrapped up in it, like you and I are, every day-
David Graves:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... but, uh-
David Graves:
Sometimes we're a little too close to it, I think.
Doug Shafer:
Definitely. Good to get away. Um, so, especially with people being at home, David, how can they find your wine so they can try it and take a walk in your shoes? What's the best way?
David Graves:
Well, the, uh, a-as I said at the outset, our wines are just a click or a phone call away, um, but-
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
David Graves:
... obviously, you're not going to find them in rest-, I mean, you might find them in restaurants once restaurants re-open, but, um-
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
David Graves:
... uh, that's not going to be an option right now. W-we are in some of the, um, you know, we're in, in wine specialty stores like K&L in San Francisco and down the peninsula. We're in some of the grocery store chains, and-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
David Graves:
... but can't come get it here, but as I said, we are a click or a phone call away.
Doug Shafer:
The webs-, the, the webs-, w-website is saintsbury.com, something like that?
David Graves:
Yeah, really complicated.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, good. (laughs)
David Graves:
SaintsB-U-R-Y.com.
Doug Shafer:
Listen, my friend, the ... That's right. The B-U-R-Y. Saints B-U-R-Y.
David Graves:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
Bury. Bury. Um, David, David Graves, thank you so much for coming on today. This has been super. I've learned, as always, I learned so much new stuff about fe- you know, that I've known you for 35 years, and I found out a ton of new stuff today, so thanks for taking the time, man.
David Graves:
Well, it's a great pleasure for me to, to have a yarn with you, and, and, um ... You know, there's a ... I, I say we hit ... I don't have old friends, I have friends of long duration, so ...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) I appreciate that. Thank you, sir. Thank you.
David Graves:
So, and you haven't changed a bit.
Doug Shafer:
All right.
David Graves:
So. Okay, man.
Doug Shafer:
Well, I'm, I'm trying, buddy. You take care. I'll see you around.
David Graves:
Okay. Thanks a lot, man. Bye.
Doug Shafer:
Take care. Thanks, David.