Full Transcript
Doug Shafer:
Hey everybody, Doug Shafer. A, another episode of The Taste. Today is May 7th. We are still in shelter-in-place in California during these cr- crazy times. So, we're back on the phone with today's guest. I've got a story to tell ya, uh, some of you who've listened before have heard this, so bear with me.
Doug Shafer:
So, back with my UC Davis days, there was a class called Viticulture 116A and 116B, a two quarter class, uh, led by the famous, infamous Dr. Cook, uh, who was a character, but it was a mix of grad students, undergrads, 40 or 50 students, front row, Cathy Corison, Tony Soter, Dick Ward, some other top winemakers.
Doug Shafer:
I'm in the back with Bryan Del Bondio who is wi- wi- winemaker and president of Markham forever, Rich Chessie, couple other folks, and then there was this crazy Texas guy. Um, and he had the best one-liners I've ever heard, and I just loved that class, I learned a ton, and I've never laughed so hard in my life.
Doug Shafer:
And, that crazy Texan was a guy named Kim McPherson, who is probably one of the key- key winemaker people in Texas for over the last 40 years and he's with us today from... Kim, welcome, where are ya? Where the hell are ya?
Kim McPherson:
Well, I'm in downtown Lubbock. I'm in an urban winery. It used to be the old Coca-Cola bottling plant, and I'm upstairs in my event guy's office 'cause it's real quiet, 'cause we're bottling today.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) We're bottling too. What are you... What-
Kim McPherson:
You're gonna say, "What are you bottling?" And, if you s-... And, if I tell ya, I don't want you to laugh.
Doug Shafer:
I'm not gonna laugh. What are you bottling?
Kim McPherson:
I'm bottling 2,100 cases of Sangria for my, I have a young wife, Doug.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
She's Spanish.
Doug Shafer:
Well, good.
Kim McPherson:
And she, and she has her own little, she has her own winery, but it's not really a winery. We make her wines for her, but it's actually, right across the street from me and she's had it for 16 years.
Doug Shafer:
Cool.
Kim McPherson:
And it's called La Diosa Cellars, and her Sangria is statewide, and she was running out, she panicked, sh- she comes to me and so, I say, "Okay."
Doug Shafer:
Well, you're a-
Kim McPherson:
"Do you love me or not?"
Doug Shafer:
Well, you're a good, well, you're a good husband. I like it, and tell me, uh, her name is... What's her name?
Kim McPherson:
Her name is Sylvia.
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Kim McPherson:
I met her in Los Angeles, California in 1974.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Kim McPherson:
'74. Been married to her, this May, 41 years.
Doug Shafer:
Congratulations, my friend. You keep bottling that Sangria.
Kim McPherson:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs). What?
Kim McPherson:
And, you can say I married a Spanish woman 'cause my dad, one time, sent me to school down in old Mexico, down there in old Mexico.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And, I studied archeology, and I came back, and my mother goes, "He's gonna marry a Mexican girl, I just know he is."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And, I said, "Uh, yeah, probably am."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. (laughs) Well-
Kim McPherson:
So, I did.
Doug Shafer:
Well, good for you. It's 40- 40 years, you said? 41 years?
Kim McPherson:
41 this May, May 26th.
Doug Shafer:
Man, that's great. That's so cool. So, we're bottling 2018 One Point Cabernet. We're doing... It's at the-
Kim McPherson:
One Point Five.
Doug Shafer:
One Point Five.
Kim McPherson:
Is that-
Doug Shafer:
That's- that's our, that's our mainline Cab, baby. And-
Kim McPherson:
And- and what's that, what is that label called? What's it called?
Doug Shafer:
It's actually-
Kim McPherson:
Shafer, I know.
Doug Shafer:
It's- it's a Shafer bra-, it's a Shafer brand and then we actually, call the wine One Point Five, and, uh, it's a Cabernet, always a Stags Leap District District Cab, mostly Cab, sometimes some Merlot, and Malbec, and Petit Verdot, and, uh, the name tells the story, the generation story of my dad and me. He- he started late in life, second career, and I joined him early, I joined him within the first three years, so instead of two generations it's one and a half, or we call it One Point Five.
Kim McPherson:
One Point Five.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Kim McPherson:
Do the math. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
And- and, we, I vowed I would never put it in Magnums 'cause there was enough confusion with the name anyway, and, um, a couple years ago we started making Mags, (laughs) so now you get a 1.5 of One Point Five.
Kim McPherson:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Somebody- somebody wishes I should call it Three Point O, but I said that would, BATF or whatever it wasn't wild about that, so we couldn't do that.
Doug Shafer:
So, uh, anyway, there, I'm really jazzed to talk to you, Kim. First, it's great to hear your voice 'cause you and I go way back. But, um, a lot of people who listen to this podcast don't know much about the wine industry in Texas, so it's go- really good to have you on.
Doug Shafer:
And, at some point later, I wanna have you do a little overview, but before we get to that, your family is a big part of the Texas wine story from the beginning, and it starts with your dad. So tell me, tell me about your dad and Texas wine.
Kim McPherson:
Well, my dad was a chemistry professor at Texas Tech, it's right here in Lubbock. You know, that's the big 12, you know, last year we were in the Final Two.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Anyway, but, uh, he taught chemistry and, my mother taught nu-, food nutrition, nutrition,-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Senior graduate level nutrition. And, he made hooch when he was in college...
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
(laughs) And- and...
Doug Shafer:
Wait, okay. Well, time out, big boy. What kinda hooch was he making in college?
Kim McPherson:
Well, he was making it out of peaches, anything they could make it out of.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Kim McPherson:
And, uh, his nickname-
Doug Shafer:
Moonshine.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, moonsh-, well or wine. He made peach wine-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And he'd add stuff and- and, uh, they called him Doc. That's all we ever called him. We never called him Dad, we always called him Doc, you know, "Hey, Doc," right. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
So, uh, in 1967 he said, "I'm gonna plant a vineyard," and, of course, my mother goes, "Hell, you're nuts." So, he planted a vineyard, and now the vineyard is in town now, it was outside of town.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Kim McPherson:
And, it's called Sagmor, still have it, it's, uh, 14 acres, uh, seven and a half of it's planted to Sangiovese- and he's had that since 1983, and he's got, he has got two, three acres of Cabernet, Clone 7, and you're not gonna believe this, but Bill Ward planted that.
Doug Shafer:
Bill Ward, our old buddy from UC Davis.
Kim McPherson:
Our old buddy, Bill Ward, UC Davis.
Doug Shafer:
Who- who spent a lot of time, well, he spent most of his career here in Napa I think, or at least Napa/Sonoma planting vineyards.
Kim McPherson:
Well, he was in Lubbock, Texas for about four years putting a vineyard in for some rich guys, 100 acres, he put 100 acres in.
Doug Shafer:
That's a name that most people really don't know. Bill's lo-, we lost Bill a- a number of years ago, but this guy, this guy knew how to plant vineyards, and he was way, wa-, I mean, at the time-
Kim McPherson:
Way ahead of, yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Way ahead of everybody back in the '70s and '80s when he was doing it.
Kim McPherson:
You know, and I, and I, he taught me so much about don't take crap off people and this and that and, you know, his s- s- little sayings, you know, know, he-
Doug Shafer:
He was a, we got, we know we got a formal education in grapes and wine, and we got a life education from Dr. Bill Ward.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, and, you know, he was in the, you know in was in the N-, uh, the Navy, and he was corpsman on a ship off the coast of Vietnam.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And, he would tell me stories about, you know, stuff, oh, horrible stuff.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And- and, yeah, it, he, but he- he was a... And, you know, he- he ran away basic-, he moved out of his house when he was 16 years old-
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kim McPherson:
Because he couldn't stand his sisters-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And his dad was, his dad was okay, but his mother and his sisters drove him nuts, and he moved in on a beach with a cop from L.A.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And, he lived... I mean, it was an incredible story. So, he had this gr- gr- great life, and I don't know if you know this, and I'm not trying to harp on Bill Ward, but you know he played baseball-
Doug Shafer:
I-
Kim McPherson:
In- in high school-
Doug Shafer:
I do remember that.
Kim McPherson:
In Costa Mesa.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And, in the State Championship he's the only guy that got a hit off Bert Blyleven.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. Didn't know that.
Kim McPherson:
And, he, uh, he had elbow surgery, but he had scholarship to UCLA, Arizona, and one other college, and when he heads, he said he got those zippers in his elbow, the scholarships disappeared, and then he said, "I went, I went to school." So, that's it. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) You know... Hey-
Kim McPherson:
So, he's a great ball player, golly.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, well, do you, do you, uh, didn't, wasn't there a viticulture enology softball team, and you guys were on it?
Kim McPherson:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I didn't, I-
Kim McPherson:
I- I put all that together and I recruited people. You were recruited.
Doug Shafer:
No, I, you know something, I, 'cause you were a grad student, right, at the Davis? No, no?
Kim McPherson:
No, no, no, no.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, you were undergrad?
Kim McPherson:
Yep.
Doug Shafer:
I thought maybe that I was just being you, discriminated against 'cause I was a punk. Oh.
Kim McPherson:
(laughs) No.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
You got...
Doug Shafer:
One up.
Kim McPherson:
No, I- I went to everybody. Hell, I even went to old John Alban, you know he was a brewery guy.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Do you ever remember him?
Doug Shafer:
I do.
Kim McPherson:
I mean, this guy was super good looking. All the women would go, "God, who's that?" And, they'd go, "He's our buddy." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) He makes beer. Uh-
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, but now he makes wine.
Doug Shafer:
I know. Well, you- you know, he- he saw the light, saw the light. So- back to, back to your dad. So, was he, your dad the first guy to plant grapes in- in that area, West Texas?
Kim McPherson:
Well, yeah, up here in we-, up in the high Texas it's called it's, the AVA's called the Texas High Plains.
Doug Shafer:
Texas High Plains.
Kim McPherson:
There's about a million acres up here-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
In the Texas High Plains.
Doug Shafer:
And, just for lo-, ge- ge- geographic logistics, Lubbock's, like how far, it's west of Dallas how far?
Kim McPherson:
Uh, we are 80 miles from the New Mexico State Line. We are 110 miles south of Amarillo, straight south,-
Doug Shafer:
Right, got it.
Kim McPherson:
And then we're about 100 miles north of Midland.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
So, we're in what they call the South Plains, not the Panhandle, the South Plains.
Doug Shafer:
But, just below-
Kim McPherson:
We're...
Doug Shafer:
The south of the Panhandle, right.
Kim McPherson:
The, you know, the- the, evla- elevation here is about 3500 feet and yes, it's flat-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And I'm gonna say because of climate change, it has gotten a little warmer.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And so, yes, he was the first guy to plant up here, but he wasn't the first guy to plant in Texas.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Texas has a long history, um, there was a gentleman in, uh, East Texas that saved the French vineyards from phylloxera. And, actually, the, he, they erected, they gave him the Legion of Honor and they erected a 75 foot monument to him at his grave in- in Denison, Texas. And, God, I can't remember that guy's name, it slips my mind.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
But, you know, do you, you know, I don't know if you know, re- going just to real quick to Texas is that Jim Lider, you remember Jim Lider, professor.
Doug Shafer:
Jim Li-, Dr. Lider, UC Davis.
Kim McPherson:
Dr. Lider-
Doug Shafer:
Yep.
Kim McPherson:
And his grad students, he told me, he said, "Kim, we go to Texas all the time," and I said, "Why?" And, he said, "You got more indigenous wild grapevines than any state."
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Kim McPherson:
And, he would go all over this state into creek beds and everywhere, and he would get, they'd get recut, I mean, cuttings.
Doug Shafer:
And, bring 'em back 'cause-
Kim McPherson:
And so,-
Doug Shafer:
'Cause -
Kim McPherson:
They'd bring 'em back and then they were, you know, and so this is what, uh, the guy did in Denison, and he shipped all these cuttings over there to France to save the, and you know, we gave them phylloxera, right, so. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
That's right, we were, yeah, that's something we, we don't talk about too much. (laughs)
Kim McPherson:
(laughs) So, they- they, he shipped boatloads over there, and they grafted onto this and, you know, the big thing is now the French say well there's- there's pre-phylloxera vineyards, you know, in
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Burgundy, and, that didn't have the rootstock, and then they came up with their own rootstock. But, in the long run, he- he saved the, that he saved the French wine industry.
Doug Shafer:
Exactly.
Kim McPherson:
Back in the 1870s or whatever.
Doug Shafer:
So, a little background for everybody. Dr. Lider was one of our professors back in the '70s in Davis.
Kim McPherson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Doug Shafer:
And, great guy, really friendly guy.
Kim McPherson:
Oh, good, yeah, great guy.
Doug Shafer:
Really good guy. And, um, but, a, one of his areas, he a lot of th- th- things going on, Davis's research on developing new rootstocks, and cultivars, and, you know, basically, genetic engineering if you will, to come up with a rootstock that does better in clay soil, or wet soil, or disease resistance. And, that's-
Kim McPherson:
Salt soil.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
And, so, uh, what Kim's talking about is there were so many native gr- grape va-, um, species in Texas, so much more than an- anywhere around here, that's where Lider and these guys were going down to get some of these species to bring 'em back to the lab to do some genetic work on it, so. But, I never knew that, I never knew they went to Texas. That's cool.
Kim McPherson:
Oh, and- and he made, I don't know, he told me one time he made three or four trips down here, and you know, and they'd go all over in these creeks and-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And he'd send graduate students down here, and they'd come back.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And, it was, it was wild. I went, "Huh," who, "I never knew that." But...
Doug Shafer:
That's cool.
Kim McPherson:
And so, you know, the- the rupestris stuff, and all this, I- I can't even remember the names, but-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
It's very interesting. But, my dad had, he had 10 acres, he bought some more from his buddy-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
A little later, but he had 140 different grapevines he planted.
Doug Shafer:
140 different- different grape varietals?
Kim McPherson:
D- deep, d- d- dif- different grape varietals from hybrids to Native American to, all kinds of, oh, vinifera-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Uh, he had-
Doug Shafer:
And- and, what was, what was he doing just seeing what was going to be best, or...
Kim McPherson:
Just to see-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
What would grow here.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And, he, uh, uh, planted all these. You know, he may have 10 vines of something and 30 vines of this, and you know, 50 vines of this.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And, one of the stories, he had a grad student that went to Spain, and this is a true story, and this guy came back, and he- he had grape vines he had wrapped around a VW wheel.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And, he was in, he was in the, uh, Rioja in Spain.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And, he brought these two vines back, and Doc goes, "What are these?" And, he goes, "I don't know, one of 'em's red and one of 'em's white." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And so, my dad made cuttings out of all this thing, wrapped around the grapevi-, uh, in the wheel of, 'cause he smuggled them in. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
He smuggled 'em in- in the, in the spare, in the spare tire. Got it.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
In- in two tires. And- and so, my dad planted it, and it was Tempranillo, and the other white grape of Rioja, I don't know which one it was, they grew like weeds.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
But, you know, then he goes, "H- how do I know this is Tempranillo?" And, I said, "Well, Doc." You know, and he had the leaves and he looked at it. But, we never sent it off, but goll-... He called 'em Spanish A and Spanish B.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) All right. So, I love this. So, this guy, your dad, Doc, he's doing all this-
Kim McPherson:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
All this, planting everything just seeing what grows best. And, meanwhile, so harvest comes along... Now, does he have a winery yet?
Kim McPherson:
Well-
Doug Shafer:
When's that, when's that happen?
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, it was our garage at the house.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, your gara-, it's a home winemaker. So, he would just make small batches of this and that, is what I'm guessing, right?
Kim McPherson:
Yeah. And- and he made 'em in reagent, big, you know, they had these big glass bottles, there's, I still got like 10 of 'em, they're really cool looking.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, the big five for five...
Kim McPherson:
Re-aged -
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah.
Kim McPherson:
The acid thing, and they're like six gallons, and seven gallons.
Doug Shafer:
That- that's right 'cause he was a chemistry guy.
Kim McPherson:
And, he-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, he had all that.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, and he had, he had all these bottles, and he had-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Stuff down in our cellar. He had a cellar, we have a r-, we have a tornado cellar-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And he had stuff fermenting down there, and he had stuff fermenting over here. And, my big brother whose, he's not in the wine business, he- he teaches school, Doug. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Oh, well, yeah, I've done that. I mean...
Kim McPherson:
(laughs) He still does.
Doug Shafer:
All right.
Kim McPherson:
He would, he would siphon off stuff and sell it to his buddies.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Did your dad know about that?
Kim McPherson:
Nah, he figured it out, some point, and he, you know, yeah, it- it got, it was funny.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Kim McPherson:
Doc kinda laughed, but it... Then, the Chemistry Department at Tech gave him a downstairs, in the basement, big ol' lab. And, he moved everything down there, and he was doing all his experimental stuff down there. Him and his buddy, Bob Reed who was a professor at Tech too.
Doug Shafer:
And, they're making hooch on campus. Is that legal? How'd they get away with that?
Kim McPherson:
Oh, yeah, they- they got, they got it passed-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Back in the day, and they were making hooch on campus, and studying stuff, and, you know, seeing the best wine, and what this, and what didn't grow, and- and, uh...
Doug Shafer:
And when, who's, and who's working the vineyard? Are they like doing it on the weekends and nights?
Kim McPherson:
They, yeah, they were doing it on the weekends themselves.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And, how about you? Were you a kid help 'em, did he drag you out to the vineyard?
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, I was, oh, oh, oh, yeah. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, all of us got drug out to the vineyard. We drove the tractor and, you know, and we plowed. You know, back when- when he first started, it was fun, it was fun.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Then it got to be like, no, that's not no fun anymore. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, it's like, you know, I wanna go see my friends and hang out, go to the movies.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, I wanted to do that.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
But, you know, back then, you know, Doug, we didn't have cell phones and we didn't have this-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
You know, we didn't have any of that stuff. So, yeah, we went out there and messed around and played in the irrigation well, and did, you, did all that stuff, and... But, he- he figured out that vinifera would work here.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And, one of his favorite grapes was Carignan.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. 'Cause I was gonna ask you later-
Kim McPherson:
And then-
Doug Shafer:
What- what goes best down in your region.
Kim McPherson:
Well-
Doug Shafer:
Lots of things.
Kim McPherson:
Well, that's another story, which includes Tony Soter.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, and we'll get, we'll get to that. We'll-
Kim McPherson:
We're gonna get to that.
Doug Shafer:
We'll- we'll okay, we'll get back to that one. But, so, he's- he's in, he's- he's loving Carignan, so he starts planting more of it? What's he do?
Kim McPherson:
He plants, he plants more Carignan, he- he liked Grenache, he had Mourvedre, uh. Now, you gotta remember, my dad loved jelly, and so he had jelly grapes too.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And- and, that was just for jelly. So, he had Concord and he had some Niagara, and he loved raisins. So, he had raisin grapes too, Black Monukka,-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And Thompson. And- and, uh, so, he- he did his own raisins, and my mom made jelly. So, those were kinda sacred part of the vineyard, you know what I'm saying?
Doug Shafer:
You got, you got jelly, you got raisins, and you got wine, I mean,
Kim McPherson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
You guys are set. (laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And so, and he was doing this, and then in 1970, uh, 5, he started, somebody, I can't remember who it was, said, "Doc, you oughta build a winery."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
He said, "You're crazy."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
"No, we not gonna -" Well, he- he got some lawyers together and a very rich woman out of San Antonio that was in the oil business, and she gave him the seed money of $50,000,-
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Kim McPherson:
And he raised enough money to build Llano Estacado Winery.
Doug Shafer:
And, that was-
Kim McPherson:
A little ol'-
Doug Shafer:
Was that the first-
Kim McPherson:
Cinder block-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, was that the first one in Texas?
Kim McPherson:
It- it was the second winery. That there was a small, but it wasn't really a winery, it was in a guy's garage and he got bonded first, but he didn't last long. But, Doc built this thing out of concrete block, and he put all the tanks inside, and they go, "God, why'd you build it out of concrete, Doc?" And, he said, "Hell, somebody's gonna shoot it just, so I guarantee you out here in this Bible Belt."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And they damn sure did, they shot at the winery.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Oh, God. They're not still doing that, are they?
Kim McPherson:
No.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Kim McPherson:
No. But- but, you know, and then it, LLano's grown into a- a- hu-, you know, it's a huge winery now.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
But, he- he built that and he had some lawyers and he had some people in it, and-
Doug Shafer:
Was he-
Kim McPherson:
In 1976, it was, you know, a bonded winery.
Doug Shafer:
It's so cool. So, was he, uh, was that full-time, was he still teaching, and...
Kim McPherson:
No, he was still teaching. He had to teach.
Doug Shafer:
Got it. And, you're, a- a, whe- where- where are you, are you like in high school now or you're past high school?
Kim McPherson:
Uh, '76, but no, I was, a, well, I was, uh, getting ready to- to, uh, go to Davis.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. And, what was, just for fun, though, what was high school like for you and your brothers? What were you guys into? Were- were you just working in the vineyards, you got sports, what were you doing?
Kim McPherson:
(laughs) No sports. We, my brother was older than me, of course, and he was of age that, you know, back then it was 18 for the drinking age.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And so, we, uh, we, uh, uh, uh, he would get us liquor.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
So, we stood out in the parking lot and, you know, we'd drink sweet wine and, you know, and back then, you know, have an older brother, you know, he got it, got us into weed a little bit, you know. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, that happens. (laughs)
Kim McPherson:
You know, and so, you know, we- we just, we-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I had, I had, I had an older brother too. (laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Just went to school, and (laughs) we got out-
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And, uh...
Doug Shafer:
And, you partied a little bit.
Kim McPherson:
We kinda partied a little bit.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. I got that.
Kim McPherson:
So.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. So, at this point,-
Kim McPherson:
You know, then I-
Doug Shafer:
Go ahead.
Kim McPherson:
I have an older brother, but I have a younger brother too. You might know John. He's at, he's in Te-, the lost region of Temecula. You know, the songs go, "What- what, where's that?' Anything below Santa Barbara, they go, "What's there?"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
(laughs) So, but he's down there, and he's- he's nine years younger than me.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
So, anyway, he's a winemaker, and he's a very good one.
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Kim McPherson:
But, uh, my dad started the winery and we started making wine and, uh, we couldn't have a tasting room, it was illegal.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Kim McPherson:
But, for some reason, Doc had a little ol' tasting room, and the TABC sort of turned a blind eye to it.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Kim McPherson:
But, he had to get the blessing of all the liquor stores in Texas, the major ones, and get their blessing, so that we could sell wine.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Kim McPherson:
And, he would, it was, it was a very kind of a tough deal.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, I bet it was 'cause it's-
Kim McPherson:
I mean, there was a gentleman by the name of Pinkie Roden who had Pinkie's Liquor Stores all over here in West Texas. I mean, he was a famous bootlegger, and hell, my dad had to go down to Odessa all the time. And, they- they- they liked Doc. They'd go, "Hey, Doc, how..."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And- and, they'd let him, they passed a tasting room law, but Doc couldn't sell, you couldn't sell over 25,000 gallons out of your tasting room. But, they let him have the tasting room law.
Doug Shafer:
So, he sold it, hold, sold out of the tasting room. Was he selling, uh, you know, this is back in the, uh, uh, back in the days, and was he selling it to restaurants, and other retail outlets, or distributors, and...
Kim McPherson:
He was selling it to Pinkie's, and to Majestic's who was in Fort Worth,-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And Sigel's, which was in Dallas.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Kim McPherson:
And-
Doug Shafer:
And, uh, what- what types of wine? It was, obviously, Carignan, I bet, and what el-, what else was he making?
Kim McPherson:
Well we, well, uh, we had, we didn't have any varietals, so to speak-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Kim McPherson:
We did blends-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
'Cause we didn't have enough. So, we had, you know, we had a red wine. Then we have white... There's white wine, and, uh, we put in a liter and a half's too (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right. (Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
1.5s baby.
Kim McPherson:
1.5s, and, you know, we didn't- we didn't do a lot, I mean we- we were doing... he was probably doing 2,500 cases per year.
Doug Shafer:
Right, right. Oh yeah, it's kinda cool-
Kim McPherson:
But-
Doug Shafer:
But, fun, how... I mean, that must've been crazy? Did- did... what'd the locals all think? Did they think he was nuts?
Kim McPherson:
Well he was nuts-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
... but- but, they loved to drink the wine, and they'd come out there, and, you know, the funny... this is a very funny story too. His first winemaker was an Australian that he met, remember, they didn't have Unified in those days, it was ASEV.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Remember that?
Doug Shafer:
Right, this is the, this is the annual-
Kim McPherson:
In San Diego.
Doug Shafer:
... this is the annual wine people convention.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... the ASEV.
Kim McPherson:
Back then, and- and so, he met an Australian there, at San Diego. And this guy was named, I can't even remember his name, Terry something, Beltrami, or Terry something.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And he hired this guy to make wine, good winemaker. And... but unbeknownst to my dad, this guy w- wanted to go back to Australia. But he didn't have any money.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
It's, (laughing), and so, he got in trouble, he kind of fooled around with a farmer's wife-
Doug Shafer:
Oh, come on, really?
Kim McPherson:
And-
Doug Shafer:
That's just, like, right out of-
Kim McPherson:
No, no.
Doug Shafer:
... that's right outta Hollywood.
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs). And-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughing), but these things happen, that's how movies happen.
Kim McPherson:
And anyway, he got in trouble, and they arrested him, and this and that. And that- that's exactly, kind of, what he wanted, 'cause the government stepped in, and they, you know, they gave him a free flight home.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Oh man, you know, McPherson, you-
Kim McPherson:
And so the first one-
Doug Shafer:
... just can't make this stuff up.
Kim McPherson:
I'm- I'm not making it up, it's a true story.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
And- and he went-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
... back home, and he was here for about two years. And we hired a guy, you may know him, uh, Joe, God- God dang it. Joe Norman.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And I think Joe Norman, went to Davis, smart kid, and he was in Missouri, but he's from California.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
He was in Missouri making wine, and when this... my dad got him. He m-, he said, "Heck, yeah, I'm moving West, I'm just going to move it there." And he was making wine here, and he was a good winemaker too. And he was making, you know, varietals and stuff, and- and, uh, uh. Anyway, he got home sick, and he was here about three years, I think.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kim McPherson:
And then he- he moved back to California. I think he's as ASD, if I'm not mistaken. I see Joe every now and then. And, uh, he loved it here, but he moved back. And then that's when I was-
Doug Shafer:
Well that's-
Kim McPherson:
... at Davis
Doug Shafer:
Yes, so before you... how'd you get to Davis, did you know you wanted to be a wine guy? Or was this just something to do? Or is this like, next time I'm going to come back I'm going to do this, I'm really into this. Or just... what- what's the story there?
Kim McPherson:
Well I wasn't into it. I can tell you, not in the beginning. My, uh, my de- my first degree is in food science. And my mother said, "You'll never want for a job in food science," and she was right. Because, you know, we make all the shit that you people eat.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs). This is-
Kim McPherson:
Doritos-
Doug Shafer:
... your mother.
Kim McPherson:
Sneaker bars-
Doug Shafer:
... this is your mother, I love it.
Kim McPherson:
... Twinkies.
Doug Shafer:
I love it.
Kim McPherson:
You know, and, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Because she had the, yeah, she was a prof in food science, that's right, okay.
Kim McPherson:
And, I got a job in Los Angeles, and I was going to Tech as an intern, and I worked at Carnation dairy in downtown Los Angeles.
Doug Shafer:
That's where that came from, you mentioned that the other day. Okay. It was an internship.
Kim McPherson:
And I, and I worked there, and every summer, and I made – I was a union man, I made good money.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
I bought a BMW motorcycle that I still have, I got, you know, I met my wife there, I met all these people. It was a party, it's a party. And, you know, when I graduated from Tech, uh, I got a job in a R & D food plant outside of Dallas, north of Dallas. And, you know, we- we did all kinds of shit there. We were- it was Seven Seas salad dressing, and Chiffon margarine.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Kim McPherson:
And I, and this is another true story; you know, the big thing that we were trying to do there, was, you remember ranch dressing? You know, ranch dressing?
Doug Shafer:
Sure, everybody knows ranch-
Kim McPherson:
Remember you had to make it up fresh, with mayonnaise, and the buttermilk-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
... and the powder.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Well, they were trying to get that flavor in the bottle. And they... you know, they've succeeded now-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
... but, we were doing that. But I worked in the cheese division, because I was on the national dair- dairy judging team at Tech. So they put me into the cheese division. And hell, I went all over, I went to Wisconsin, Minnesota, went up there and- and worked in these plants, and did all this spec work, and, you know. And it was fun for a while-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
... till it got old. And I was with this company 11 months. And I told my mom, I said, "I'm quitting." And she goes, "You can't quit, you gotta work there for one year."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
(Laughing), and I said, "Okay." Well, they l- they laid a bunch of, they laid 125 of us off. And I said, "Thank you Lord."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs). Did you?
Kim McPherson:
Then that was the summer that, uh, the first Star Wars came out.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. All right.
Kim McPherson:
And I was living, I was living north of Dallas, my brother lived up on a lake, and, you know, I just spent all m-, all summer doing that, and watching Star Trek in the movie theater, and going sailing on a sailboat and shit.
Doug Shafer:
Good for you. So-
Kim McPherson:
Well, and then, I- I didn't know what I wanted to do.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Had these headhunters call me all the time, "Hey Kim, you know, we've got a great job down here in Dallas." Which, urgh... so my dad calls me up, he goes, "I want you to go to Davis." I go, "Doc, Doc I don't want to get a masters." He said, "No, no." He said, "Denny Webb is a dear friend of mine." He goes-
Doug Shafer:
Dr. Webb up at Davis, yeah.
Kim McPherson:
They were in the American Chemical Society together. And so, Denny Webb, he- he came out here one time for something, he came to our house, and, uh, anyway, he goes, "Denny Webb's going to fix everything up for you."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
I go, "Really?" (Laughing), I said, "How's that?"
Doug Shafer:
That's a great...
Kim McPherson:
And, uh, I went up there, and I met with Dr. Webb, and he said, "Here's how you're going to do it. You're going to become a concurrent student."
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
He said, "It's just like you're a grad-, you're a, you're, you are, like, you graduate, but you're not. You're not going to get another degree."
Doug Shafer:
You just gonna take classes?
Kim McPherson:
"I mean, you're gonna take classes, and- and I'm going to arrange it, and you're going to go to... each - you're gonna get an..." hell, I went to soil science, I went to water, I went up everywhere."
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And did all these knowledge-y classes, he set all that up. And I was there two and a half years. Um, I was well-
Doug Shafer:
So that's what you were doing? I see-
Kim McPherson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
... I thought you were, I thought you were getting a masters? Okay.
Kim McPherson:
No, no, I didn't want to do that.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
No, I didn't want to do that.
Doug Shafer:
You just wanted, you just wanted to get the classes, you wanted to learn.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, and I mean, I- I got grades, just like everybody else. Hell, they still send me stuff, I'm an alumni.
Doug Shafer:
Right. (Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
... at Davis. (Laughing), so I said, "Okay." But yeah, I went there for, uh, a little over two years.
Doug Shafer:
What was... how was...
Kim McPherson:
That's when I-
Doug Shafer:
... did you like... who was, who was in your class? Who were some of your peers? You know, I was in one class, but who... I only had one with you.
Kim McPherson:
Oh, gosh, I tell you. The- the one big class you had... well, I had Bruce Cakebread, Dan Seghesio, Randall Graham, uh, Cathy Corison and those guys were grad students.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Kongsgaard, John Kongsgaard, I liked that guy, (laughing), he's a good guy.
Doug Shafer:
He's a good guy.
Kim McPherson:
Uh. Tony Soter was not there, he'd already left. Um. Who else? Bruce Cakebread, and his... Bruce's wife...
Doug Shafer:
Uh, Rosemary? Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Oh gosh, I c-, I'd have to sit down and try to remember-
Doug Shafer:
No, don't- don't worry about it, no -
Kim McPherson:
No, I'm not going to worry about that.
Doug Shafer:
No.
Kim McPherson:
But, yeah, and- and all these guys in the, in the class. You know, there's a lot of Vit's guys that- that were famous now.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Well, I tell you, you go to Dick Grace, no Dick Wa-
Doug Shafer:
Dick Ward.
Kim McPherson:
Was it Dick?
Doug Shafer:
It was Dick, yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Dick Ward-
Doug Shafer:
And David Graves.
Kim McPherson:
Was, uh, he was a grad student.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Uh. Who's the guy that owns Morgan? Dan Lee.
Doug Shafer:
Dan Lee, Morgan, yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Dan Lee, (laughing), God.
Doug Shafer:
Hey look man, you still got it Kim. You're still there...
Kim McPherson:
And David Graves.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
You know I, do you know my... David is, he was always a great guy. And, uh, I bought their bottling line from 'em.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
I got an incredible Virtalaso bottling line, that I bought from Sainsbury's.
Doug Shafer:
We had David on this show just a few weeks ago. It was great to talk to him.
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs). He's a big ol' goober.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughing), yeah.
Kim McPherson:
(Laughing), you know, they were doing 1.5s.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughing), goober. Oh.
Kim McPherson:
They were doing, I got to go, you know, I got their bottling, I go, "Why were you guys doing 1.5s of pinot noir?" You know. It worked.
Doug Shafer:
It worked, it worked. So after Davis, where'd you go? You'd go back to Texas?
Kim McPherson:
No, no, no, no, no.
Doug Shafer:
No?
Kim McPherson:
Uh, you know, Darryl Eclin was, uh, you know, he was my roommate.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Well, not at, not in college, but when we got, when I got out, he was working at Trefethen. And he said to me, "You outta come to work over here at Trefethen." So I go in there, and- and, uh, they hired me.
Doug Shafer:
All right.
Kim McPherson:
Dave Whitehouse, and you know, all those guys, and it... Janet... and so, they hired me. And so, you know, Darryl and I lived down by the marina, somewhere Napa, but it's all built up now.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, down South, there.
Kim McPherson:
And we were roommates, and- and, uh, uh, my wife was living in Burlingame, in California, with her brother. So I'd, you know, go back and forth, and she'd come up to Napa, and, you know, Bill Ward, in there-
Doug Shafer:
When'd you, when'd you guys get married? When you were at Davis?
Kim McPherson:
Where?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, or... do you-
Kim McPherson:
No, no, no, we got, we got married af- after I came back from Davis.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, okay.
Kim McPherson:
And, uh, but, you know, Bill Ward was there and, uh, we'd see each other, and we'd go to all these tasting rooms and shit, and... anyway, that's... and I worked at Trefethen.
Doug Shafer:
Just to what, just cellar job?
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, just- just-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
You know, worked the-
Doug Shafer:
Hauling hoses?
Kim McPherson:
Topping barrels.
Doug Shafer:
Yup.
Kim McPherson:
Cleaning tanks. Actually, Darryl and I used to work for D- Domaine Chandon, for about two months, out of the year, because, you know, that's how Trefethen got started.
Doug Shafer:
How's that?
Kim McPherson:
I mean... well, Domaine Chandon bought all their tanks for 'em.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Because they were building Domaine Chandon, and they didn't have a winery, and old John Trefethen, he said, "Hey. Get all my tanks here, and you can do it here, and we'll share the tanks." Because, you know, they were out of the tanks.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
W-, Trefethen needed the tanks, so to speak.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
'Cause they had a crush pad there, and we- we- we would crush sparkling wine grapes. And we- we'd b-, Darryl and I'd drag tanks into a tanker, chill that stuff, drag it into a tanker, and then drive it up the hill to Domaine Chandon.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause they didn't have tanks, yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And then when the sparkling ran out, then we started picking, you know, regular grapes for Trefethen, it was a great deal.
Doug Shafer:
It is a good deal.
Kim McPherson:
And then they finally put in all their tanks, so...
Doug Shafer:
All right, so you were at Trefethen, how long were you at Trefethen?
Kim McPherson:
Little over a year.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And man, I wanted to stay, bad. And my dad, he called the markers in.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, (laughs), man.
Kim McPherson:
Said, "You- you owe me." And I said, "I don't owe you nothin'."
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
No, really?
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs). Bad.
Doug Shafer:
So dad said, "Come home,"?
Kim McPherson:
He said, "You've got to come home and help me run, Llano Estacado. You've gotta come over here." And I said, "God dern, Doc, Man." You know, "It's really pretty out here, and it's really cool, and..."
Doug Shafer:
Why'd you want, why'd you want to stay here? Be- besides the pretty-
Kim McPherson:
Well because, back then, it was really nice.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
It was laid back and, you know, that's a funny story too, 'cause, uh, Darryl asked him one time at ASCV, and I go, "How's Napa?" And he goes, "Well Kim, remember all those millionaires that came in and bought everything up?" And I said, "Yeah." And he goes, "Well, there's billionaires are coming in and buying them out."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs). Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And I went, "Yes, it's kinda got out of hand." And I said, "Well, oh well." But, uh, I had a great time there. And the Trefethen's, when I left, they- they threw an incredible surprise party for me. In that, in that, you know, the- the- the big house, right over there on the property?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Well, the-
Kim McPherson:
Oh my God. They- they- they kidded me that, I mean, they were like, "Now, go over there and clean... we need for you to go to the pool house over there and," da da da da da, and I said, "Okay." Yeah, and I run over there, and then everybody was in there, my wife, and all these people, and they had their chef, and I mean, it was un-, it was unreal.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Kim McPherson:
And I thought, well, I guess I did something right.
Doug Shafer:
You made a, you made an impression. You always do, by the way.
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
Oh God, I hope it's a good one, but, yeah, it was a good time there.
Doug Shafer:
So dad dragged you back, so were you kicking and screaming, or just kicking a little bit?
Kim McPherson:
Kicking a little bit-
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Kim McPherson:
Because I wanted to make, you know, cabernet, you know, I wanted to do chardonnay-
Doug Shafer:
Right,
Kim McPherson:
I wanted to do these varieties that, you know, we were doing in Napa. And, uh, you know, and back then, and I will say this, because of climate change, it was a lot cooler here-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
... in the summer. I mean, 90 would be a pretty good warm day.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
It did go down to, like, 52, 54 at night.
Doug Shafer:
See, that's good to know, because I think a lot of us, who don't know the Texas scene, it's like, you know, "Oh, it's just hot as hell all the time." You know, everywhere.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
So that's-
Kim McPherson:
It is, it's bone dry here too. There's-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
... very little humidity. And so, you know, we were making fairly, I thought, decent chardonnay. And the cabs, you know, I did well in competitions with cab and, you know, chardonnay, it was the first double gold medal winning wine in Texas, and San Francisco.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And that freaked everybody out, it's like, "Well, you know," but it did... chardonnay, it didn't last, it... when it got warmer, and it-
Doug Shafer:
It was too-
Kim McPherson:
... budded out so early. Anyway.
Doug Shafer:
It was too hot.
Kim McPherson:
Too hot.
Doug Shafer:
But other varietals do well, right?
Kim McPherson:
Well, now that's where Soter came in, when I-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, tell me about that.
Kim McPherson:
When I left, I had, I have a very storied history in the wine business. I left Llano, I was there about five years.
Doug Shafer:
Working with your dad.
Kim McPherson:
And-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, but they, he, they sold that wine, well, they needed money. So they got in these big rich guys-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
... and the rich guys kinda took the whole thing over, and- and my dad, he got disillusioned, and he became a minor stock holder, and I said, "You know Doc, I'm outta here."
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Kim McPherson:
And so-
Doug Shafer:
It's tough.
Kim McPherson:
... there was a winery going in, that was, that had a bunch... that was raising money. And it was called, it was called, Teysha. And this winery was an ultra modern winery, it's probably three miles from, Llano.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And it... Mac Pall was the engineer that put in Mondavi's Woodbridge plant. He designed this whole winery. Unbelievable.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Kim McPherson:
I mean, this thing, you know, "You could do, you know, 50 tons a day with gondolas and all this stuff," it was great.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Still there. And so my... they got my dad involved in that, and, we saw the handwriting on the wall, that they were spending way too much money.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
And my dad goes, "I'm getting out of this." And he... they bought him out.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
So when they did that, you know, I was going to be the winemaker there, and this story, it's a great story, it's a true story, and I said, "No, I'm not." And they held my feet to the fire, they said, "You're going to do this," you know, "Or we're going to," you know, "Not buy your dad's grapes," and all this.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And I said, "Look, I'll sign whatever you want me to sign, just, get rid of the contract with my dad, because he's going to go to Llano with his grapes." And so they did that, but then I said, "Screw you." And so, um-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
... I went to the Central Coast. Well, no, I didn't go to the Central Coast then, (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
So you took off?
Kim McPherson:
Well, there was another winery north of Dallas going in, by a bunch of rich guys.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
You just love to, you just love to hang out with rich guys, don't you.
Kim McPherson:
Rich people, just love to get into me-
Doug Shafer:
You just love that. (Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
But one of them was a dentist for the Dallas Cowboys, uh, one of them was Bruce Crampton, the professional golfer. Uh, he was part of the thing. One of them was the chairman of the board at E-Systems, which was a huge defense company in Fort Worth. They were all these rich guys.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Land guys, so we- we built this cool little winery, up in the woods. And, uh, you know, it was fun for about three years. And then that went belly up.
Doug Shafer:
What was the name of that one?
Kim McPherson:
It was called, uh, Texas Vineyards.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And then, Showpal Hill.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And a doctor ended up with that winery, and he donated that little winery to Grayson County college-
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
... for a training winery.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
It's still there. But that's when is said, "No, I'm done, I'm going to go back to California." So I went to the Central Coast. And there was a place called the Central Coast Wine Warehouse.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Which was the old CBS Record plant in Santa Maria. And the Miller family, which owned Bien Nacido, French Camp, big- big grape growing family, in- in Santa Maria-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
... on the Central Coast. They bought that, and they were ... they had the Central Coast Wine Warehouse.
Doug Shafer:
As a, as a winery? Got it.
Kim McPherson:
As a... well, anybody want to come in there.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Me and Lane Tanner were the first ones to go in there. You know, who Lane Tanner is?
Doug Shafer:
I do, I remember Lane. Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Uh, great gal, anyway, she loved pinot noir. And so, we had a little ol' space... we had a bonded winery space, I think it was about 20 by 20.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
But then we used all their crush equipment, and we used all their tanks, you know... you know how that sh- shit goes?
Doug Shafer:
Right, right.
Kim McPherson:
And so, I said, "Well, I'm going to make chardonnay, from, um, Bien Nacido." And, I was making, true story here, I was making chardonnay, but I wasn't selling it for enough money, they said.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs). So they said, we're not gonna, we're not gonna sell you chardonnay. 'Cause I was selling it for, like, 18 bucks a bottle, and they said, "No, this stuff should be like 35 or 40." And I go, "Come on guys," you know, "I'm a friend of the working man."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Well, I said, "Okay, that's fine." So, I went down to Santa Maria Hills Vineyards. And I made this chardonnay at the Central Coast Wine Warehouse, and Dan Berger, you know who he is?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, of course, wine writer.
Kim McPherson:
He got, he was the wine writer for the Los Angeles Times.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
He picked this wine up, I made 330 cases, he made it the wine of the week in the L.A. Times. Sold all of it in an hour.
Doug Shafer:
That's great.
Kim McPherson:
To the Duke of Bourbon, to High Times, to High... you know these-
Doug Shafer:
All the, all the top-
Kim McPherson:
... um, Wallys.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, Wallys, all the top retailers in Southern California.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, they bought it all boo. (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
And, so I was doing that, and- and-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Well, that's when I went down to Temecula, and I'm still getting fruit from Central Coast-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
... and the- the winery I told you about, Teysha, remember?
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Kim McPherson:
Well, it went bankrupt.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. (Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
And the bank that picked it up, was a bank that was owned by a guy that I grew up across the street from. And he gives me a phone call.
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
And, (laughing), he says, he says, uh, "Kim, I want you to come back and run this winery." And I said, "Oh, I don't know." Alan, his name was Alan White.
Kim McPherson:
He made, he made me an incredible offer. But I said I- I still want my own label, he said, "No problem." And, uh, I came back, and- and- and took that winery over.
Doug Shafer:
Back to Lub-
Kim McPherson:
You know, he put both my girls through college-
Doug Shafer:
Back to Lubbock right?
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, I raised two great girls there, my wife, I brought her back over here, and everybody goes, "How d'you do." And I said, "Niquil (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
But she woke up, she goes, "Where am I?" I said, "Paradise baby." (Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Oh man. (Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs).
Doug Shafer:
Niquil. So you- you moved back to Lubbock. When, what, to work at, uh, what's the winery called? What was it called?
Kim McPherson:
It was called Teysha, but they renamed it CapRock Winery.
Doug Shafer:
That's the one, okay. And it's-
Kim McPherson:
And so here's the other funny part of the story. So, you know, they're- they're trying to figure out how to run this thing, and Alan turns to me and goes, "Kim, we're going to fly you up to Napa. Get in the jet, we're going to fly to Napa." And I said, "Oh yeah, great."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
He said, "We're going to meet some people that are going to be some consultants." I said, "Oh, that's good." He said, "You good with that?" I said, "I'm good with that."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
Well, uh, one of the consultants, was Robert Craig-
Doug Shafer:
Great vineyard grow- gra- grape grower, and, uh-
Kim McPherson:
Elizabeth Pressler.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. A- another good wine maker.
Kim McPherson:
Elizabeth Pressler.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And Tony Soter.
Doug Shafer:
We all know Tony.
Kim McPherson:
And, they br-, they- they would fly 'em out here, and we'd fly up to Colorado to Alan's place, and we had a strategy, and we had this session... Elizabeth did the packaging, packaging and Robert Craig did the, the, the accounting and marketing thing on it and Soter was, he was my consultant, and this is where I had the famous epiphany that it's too hot here to grow cab and everything else.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Kim McPherson:
Tony, Tony did that for me.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, Kim, you gotta... I gotta stop you for a minute. What year was this? What are you talking about? Where were we?
Kim McPherson:
'90 or '90... '91 I think.
Doug Shafer:
All right. We're gonna get back to you in two seconds, but, um, you don't know this. Tony worked with me in '86 through early '88 with Elias and me and I turned our world inside out, upside down, and made us, um, helped us become really, really solid winemakers. And I, I, meaning Elias and me and Shafer owe so much to Tony Soter and his, uh, everything he taught us. So it sounds like you've got a similar story, so go for it.
Kim McPherson:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
I wanna hear it.
Kim McPherson:
I, I, I lo- I loved it. I mean, he was incredible.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
He said, Kim, it's way too hot here. I said, "Well, I'd love for you to tell the bankers that."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
And you know, he was... He taught me so many little tricks.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Kim McPherson:
Like, uh, you know, we made a red wine. He said, "Kim, let's add 10% Reisling to that. I go, "Are you su-, you're kidding." He goes, "No, it's... It'll be incredible."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
He's like... Dear God, I mean we, you know it's like, yeah. You... Just little things, you know?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And, and, and, uh, you know, the, the thing one thing that he taught me, you know, we'd get a red wine in lab and I'd go, "God, I mean this thing." He goes, "We were gonna add uh, since we sterile bottle everything, we were gonna add, we're gonna add like two grams per liter of sugar." And I go, you know, that just freaked me out.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
But what, what it did to the wine was unbelievable.
Doug Shafer:
It made the wine taste better, and that's what- no. It's just fills it out. It's just round.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Um, aren't we in business to make wine to taste good?
Kim McPherson:
That's what I think.
Doug Shafer:
That... well, I'm in your camp.
Kim McPherson:
(Laughs). I'm no expert.
Doug Shafer:
Well, well, I'm a member of that club too. (Laughs). So there you go. (laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And so it was just like a... The, the day of like, you know, you guys ought to be planting, you know, having carignan and you know this and that and... So that's, that's where I said no more ... people know me now. Don't get him on cab."
Doug Shafer:
(Laughs).
Kim McPherson:
People come into, um, the tasting room and I go, "Go to Napa if you want some cab."
Doug Shafer:
Well, yeah. Gr... Everything, you know everything has its place.
Kim McPherson:
Bill Ward once told me if he owned Napa Valley he would have nothing in it but Cabernet and Merlot and the red grapes for Bordeaux. He said, "That's the only thing I'd planting to this valley." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
Well, and that, and, and that's kind of happening, you know. The majority of the red acreage just is Cabernet up here now. And it makes sense 'cause it does really well here. It's a good spot for it. So, you know, yeah-
Kim McPherson:
It's a great spot. The greatest spot in the country for it, I think.
Doug Shafer:
Yep, yep. So you're at CapRock and you were there, you were there a long time.
Kim McPherson:
16 and a half years.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. And so you're running it, you know, what size of operation was it when you were there?
Kim McPherson:
Oh, we were probably, our biggest year we were probably doing 24, 25 thousand cases.
Doug Shafer:
Okay, serious winery. And uh-
Kim McPherson:
Yeah. Had a great Virtilaso bottle in he-, I mean it's very modern winery. Everything in that thing was just you know, custom made Mueller tanks, uh-
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Kim McPherson:
You know, everything was beautiful. But then the feds came in and told the, the bank, "You gotta get out of the business. You can't keep running a, a business."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Regulators.
Doug Shafer:
What, why, why they say that?
Kim McPherson:
Because banks aren't supposed to be in the business, to own a business, and run a business.
Doug Shafer:
I see, okay.
Kim McPherson:
They, so they, they, they sold the winery to some, some guys out of New York. And that's when it all went south.
Doug Shafer:
Oh man.
Kim McPherson:
So uh, now it's called English Newsom and one of my grower buddies and another guy bought it and, and uh, they're running it and... And I've got an in-, I have an intern. That's the one winemaker. He interned here. I had three winery, winemakers in Texas that interned for me.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Kim McPherson:
So, anyhoo, but while I was at, while I was at CapRock.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
My little brother came to California 1985 and he wanted to make sparkling wine. And so, he got an internship at Piper Sonoma but it was only for 6 months. And he said, "You know, I don't think I wanna do that." And there was a, a winery down in Fallbrook way down southern California called Culbertson.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And, this, he said, "I'll give you a full time job you know, you’re not the winemaker, but you know, you assist a wine maker." So my brother took it. He has a degree in food science. He didn't got to Davis. So he goes down there and uh, the wine maker... I don't know he, he twisted off with his wife or something and they, they just split.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Kim McPherson:
And so John Culbertson said, "John, I'm gonna give you 6 months to prove yourself, you're the winemaker." And from that point on, you know, and they used to, they used a... What was the guy, at Mumm. Ca-
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Kim McPherson:
Uh.
Doug Shafer:
He started, oh he started at Schramsberg. He was, Elias worked for him a couple summers, yeah, yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Well, he, he went to Davis too.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
God, I can't remember his name. Rob Davis, though, hi- him and my brother were buddies and - uh, he was at Schramsberg. The guy that, that was a big shot at Mumm. He put Mumm together through the French. Can't remember his name.
Doug Shafer:
I know, I can't either. But I know you -
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, well, he was John's consultant and, and John became a little, quite the well known, you know, the method champonise sparkling wine guy.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Kim McPherson:
And then, that winery got bought out and, and he moved to Temecula with a very rich guy that was in the uh, software business. This, this guy lived in the Wrigley house.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
In LaJolla
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
(laughs) His name was John Thorton. And so my brother was there and, and, and from Thorton he moved to south coast.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Kim McPherson:
And so, he's been the winemaker there since '85. Going though back to that though, John got me into judging.
Doug Shafer:
Oh really? You're a judger-
Kim McPherson:
And-
Doug Shafer:
For all these events.
Kim McPherson:
So, I have been a judge for about 25 or 28 years. Where do you judge? Well I've judged everywhere, San Diego, LA, uh, San Bern-, Pacific Rim, uh... I do about three judgings a year. Sa- San Diego international, but my big, the ma- the one that I'm most proud of is TexSomm.
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Which is th- or Dallas Morning News.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
It is the hardest competition in America. It's, it's-
Doug Shafer:
And it's like, being a judge, it's like how many days and how many wines a day do you go through?
Kim McPherson:
Well, though the funny thing is at TexSomm, there's only three winemakers.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
The rest of them are masters of wine and master somms and journalists from all over the world. They have over 4,000 wines.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And they bring in si-, their 60 judge- you know Dawnine Dyer?
Doug Shafer:
Yes.
Kim McPherson:
That's mama, mama Dawnine, you know like to call when mama, mama Dawnine. She's there and, and then me and then another winemaker and that's it.
Doug Shafer:
Oh wow.
Kim McPherson:
Freddie Dame is there. Fred Dame is always there.
Doug Shafer:
Of course.
Kim McPherson:
Uh, who else do you know from that... Doug Frost is there.
Doug Shafer:
Good uh, I know Doug.
Kim McPherson:
Um, oh gosh. There's a just a bunch of wine writers and-
Doug Shafer:
That's fun and you, so you do all those wines and what? You do them like in two or three days, something like that?
Kim McPherson:
It takes us two days-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
To do that. But I've judged and, and I've learned so much about you know, wines and, and uh... You know, I had... And I entered these, I entered these competitions because I kinda wanna see you know, how we stand up, are we doing this right?
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Uh, and I, this is another story th-, w- while I've ha-, I've had this winery here. There was two women where I get on my grapes from down here in this Terry County about 30 miles south.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Kim McPherson:
I'm gonna get into that. And they planted Albariño. And that's the coldest climate grape I have unless you're in Portugal.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And I said, "Why did you all plant Albariño." I said, "What was the last stuff they had at the nursery?" (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) That's a good one.
Kim McPherson:
And I went, "Okay, so they have like, two acres of Albariño or three acres." And they said, "We want you to make Albariño," I said, "Hell, I've never made Albariño in my life." When I make Albariño, in the, second year, it's the grand champion San Bernadino and old Fred Dame goes, "What the hell are you doing?"
Doug Shafer:
There you go. There you go.
Kim McPherson:
So we can make Albariño here. But is it a big seller for him? Yeah, I do 400 cases.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. That's a great grape. So y-, hey-
Kim McPherson:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
You know, so just for fun, could you mind taking like just five minutes to give me a 30 or you-
Kim McPherson:
Case closed 'cause I need to call my wife. She's called me three times.
Doug Shafer:
You gotta call her? Want to take a break?
Kim McPherson:
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
All right. Um...
Kim McPherson:
What do you want me to do?
Doug Shafer:
You're gonna hang up, you're gonna hang up, call your wife, and I'll call you back in what, 10 minutes?
Kim McPherson:
Okay.
Doug Shafer:
All right. I'll call you back in 10. See ya.
Kim McPherson:
All right, thanks. Bye.
Doug Shafer:
Bye.
Kim McPherson:
So what I'm doing down here, I just pick up trash and do around here.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah, oh by the way, I, I got a, I, I have confession to make. We talked the other day it was pretty funny 'cause we got, we, we got off the phone call, you left your phone on.
Kim McPherson:
Oh really?
Doug Shafer:
Oh it was hilarious' cause it was like, it's like, 'Cause you were like, "God..." (laughs) It was the day you were trying to get two generators or something going and you're like, "Did you get that switch on? You gotta watch it before it gets hot. Now goddamnit, (laughs) don't get, get over there now. You get that other thing up on. We gotta get that thing online. Let's go." I was like going -
Kim McPherson:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
You were, you were on it. It was you know, I only listened for like 2 minutes. It was pretty funny. But you were like, you were like running the show. You're you know, taking care of business. I loved it.
Kim McPherson:
Well, that’s the shits you know, when you’re the owner you know.
Doug Shafer:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Kim McPherson:
And I was, I was picking up trash, I picked up trash here everyday.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Downtown here you know. One of my growers drives it, he goes, "Oh, you look like you got a promotion." And I was like, "Yep."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Yeah. I'm in, I'm in charge of the waste water ponds here. That's my job. So...
Kim McPherson:
(laughs) well I, that's why I'm in the city because I didn't want that anymore.
Doug Shafer:
Oh yeah, we gotta talk about that. So all right, are you ready to hear, we- we- we'll kept this, kept this thing kicking.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
All right, so hey, Kim, just take a minute because I know a lot of folks don't know about the Texas wine market and grape growing areas and production. In fact, you know, I'm, I'm not that up on it, because I, I've a confession to make. I always thought the only place they grew grapes in Texas for it was down near Austin in what they call the Hill, Hill Country?
Kim McPherson:
For yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, which is so, can you give a you know, just like give a you know, thr- three thousand feet overview of grapes and wine in Texas. It's a big state.
Kim McPherson:
Well, yeah. (laughs) That it is. But there, I can't remember how many AVAs there are. There's maybe 10. You have the High Plains, you have the Hill country, you've got Trans-Pecos, you've got... I don't know.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
But 90% of the grapes that are used in this state come from up here on the High Plains.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Into- from, from Terry County and Yoakum County.
Doug Shafer:
So -
Kim McPherson:
Up here probably, you know-
Doug Shafer:
So, 90, 90, 90% in your area. That's the maj- so vast majority.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah. That and 30 miles from me south. And when I say, uh, the grapes, you know, there's probably only... You know, this is like 4,500 acres, maybe 4,800 acres of grape, 4,800. And that's it. And then you go down to Hill Country and there may be another 400 or 500. But most of it's grown up here and-
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And you know, that, those a, that's not a lot of grapes.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Right? There's over 400 wineries in this state.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Kim McPherson:
And, a lot of them are down in the Hill Country and on 290, that's between Fredericksburg and Austin. And it's the most second-visited area behind Napa for wineries.
Doug Shafer:
Is it really? I didn't know that.
Kim McPherson:
There is 60 wineries like, I think on 290. In fact, I own part of the winery called 4.0 that I went in with two guys that have wineries, one of them near Fort Worth, and the other out in the middle of nowhere. And we decided we wanted some of that tourist slop money.
Doug Shafer:
There you go.
Kim McPherson:
And they came to me and they said, "Kim, you know, we're gonna do this." And I said, "Well, I don't have any money." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
I said, "You know, I've got this big ol' wagon I'm pulling downtown here." You know, it's me and LNB, they, we- we're close.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
Right, so then, you know, you can do this and put in this much money. You know, we'll have a third of it.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
But they really wanted my wines.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And that, that's okay, that's okay. But I moved probably, I'm gonna say 6, 6,000 cases a year from down there and that's all retail.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, that's great.
Kim McPherson:
And my accountant says, "Do not rock that boat. Don't rock that boat."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
They said, "Man, that you know, that makes your nut do this." And, and so, yes, you have the Hill Country. And the Hill Country... Doug, it's like this, if, if the Gulf of Mexico was as cold as the Pacific-
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
You would have the most incredible grape growing region. You know, riding there in the rocks and everything, it'd be incredible.
Doug Shafer:
Good point.
Kim McPherson:
But it's not.
Doug Shafer:
It's not.
Kim McPherson:
It's not. It's very hot and it's very humid. And you fight that a lot. Okay? You fight-
Doug Shafer:
So they're fightin that humidity, okay.
Kim McPherson:
Oh, the disease pressure-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Holds them.
Doug Shafer:
This is humidity during the summer, the growing season for gr-
Kim McPherson:
Oh yeah.
Doug Shafer:
That's the what, that's what we're talking about, yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
'Cause it's wet.
Kim McPherson:
They get 35 inches of rain a year.
Doug Shafer:
And it rains during the growing season too.
Kim McPherson:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
Big time.
Kim McPherson:
Oh like high hill country rain, you know.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
But, the little shower coming up, then I've gotta go into that vineyard and I've gotta spray 'em.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Kim McPherson:
Gotta keep it sprayed, I've gotta keep it sprayed.
Doug Shafer:
Keep the mildew down.
Kim McPherson:
Oh, all the time. And the insect pressure.
Doug Shafer:
Interesting. So, they've got the tourist 'cause they're pretty close to Austin. I think it's within an hour or so-
Kim McPherson:
Or they're really good close to San Antonio.
Doug Shafer:
Antonio so that's-
Kim McPherson:
So an hour from San Antonio and an hour from Austin.
Doug Shafer:
Local tourists, big time, but tough place-
Kim McPherson:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
To grow grapes. Of, a number of you know, few hundred acres, 4 or 500, but so muc-
Kim McPherson:
Yeah.
Doug Shafer:
Majorities up where you are 'cause growing season, you don't have that humidity you were just talks, talking about earlier.
Kim McPherson:
I don't have humidity. Uh, it's, it's you know, very dry. Everything's on drip here.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
There, I'm gonna say this down in Hill Country, there are a couple of growers that have really made a, they've really done well. But you know, they'll tell you they fight.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. It's, it's a battle.
Kim McPherson:
Um, it's a battle. No, it's not, you know, it's not easy here, up here. Our, our big problem is spring frost.
Doug Shafer:
Oh, okay, before you go into frost though, y- y- you're, uh, earlier you said you don't get, you get hot but you're not super hot and u- that's probably because your elevation is cooler in a way.
Kim McPherson:
Right, right.
Doug Shafer:
Okay so that... so then spring frost, you get, what happens there.
Kim McPherson:
Well, you know, it, it, you'll get these say two or three inches out and you know, it may get 28 degrees.
Doug Shafer:
Ooo...
Kim McPherson:
So, what these growers have done, these really good growers now, they've got these incredible fans and heaters.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And they, they've been you know, beatin it. We didn't have one this year. We had one close but we didn't.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
They, they had everything running so it, it, it made it. And uh, so that's what we have. But then after the frost, then we got the famous hail storms.
Doug Shafer:
Oh that's right. You guys got hail storms (laughs). You don't have tornadoes too, do you?
Kim McPherson:
No, the tornadoes, well, knock on wood-
Doug Shafer:
Knock on wood.
Kim McPherson:
The tornadoes, have kinda moved to the east.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
You know, more like in Oklahoma and you know, where it's humid.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah
Kim McPherson:
Where it's very humid. Uh, so, no, not really tornadoes. But you know, you'll get... We drop if you go 15 miles east of where I'm sittin right now, you drop off about 1,600 feet.
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Kim McPherson:
Off this plateau.
Doug Shafer:
Okay
Kim McPherson:
And so, you'll have these storms, the moisture comin up form the Gulf and then it'll build right up on this cap rock, and they may or may not come up on the plains. They may stay off the cap rock. Then, you go, I could be at 10,000 feet in four hours to the west, the mountains. And so, this is where our storms come from. They build up and they move across and you have these thunder storms in... you can get hailed out.
Doug Shafer:
Oh. And what, hail-
Kim McPherson:
Hail.
Doug Shafer:
Hail basically tears leaves apart and messes up the clusters.
Kim McPherson:
Oh, w- well depending on the hail.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
If you get pea sized hail and a high wind, it'll shred you there.
Doug Shafer:
So if leaves are, leaves are torn up, they can't produce sugars to ripen the fruit, heck -
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, you, you-
Doug Shafer:
But their clusters is probably get just totally torn up too.
Kim McPherson:
Oh yeah, you'll, and they’re, and the clusters are, are basically you know, still green.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
They're bigger than a pea but soon as that hail ball hits, then you got, you got damage. So what these guys are doing now and I have to do it at my dad's vineyard, I have to bird net it. Because now he's in town, and it's like the country club out there. For the birds.
Doug Shafer:
Right. Got it.
Kim McPherson:
Used to not do that, but now these guys are, some of them are putting hail netting on and it serves as bird netting too.
Doug Shafer:
So, okay, 'cause we, there is, there is a, here, we, people use bird netting, but you use, you're using netting tighter, tighter mesh to protect the vineyard from hail.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah and it works.
Doug Shafer:
It works. Wow.
Kim McPherson:
But it's an added cost you know.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
They have these machines and they, they roll it up and then they, they... My netting stays on year round. We just roll it down in entirely.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
But, see, I'll have to pay to have that brought over in July to keep the birds out of it.
Doug Shafer:
Got it.
Kim McPherson:
So we're in the hail season now. It's coming up.
Doug Shafer:
Oh man. Well, good luck. I hope it stays away.
Kim McPherson:
Well, it is what it is.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Uh, so we have that going for us, but... Meantime, the grapes that are being grown-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Are exactly what we need to be growing here. Uh, Mourvede, probably one of the best red grapes we have.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Carignan, uh, Cinsault, Cinsault loves it here.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Of course, Tempranillo. There's probably, I was asking them that... I had the high flames grape growers president here. She was here and I said, "How many acres of Tempranillo you're up?" And she was, "Maybe 300 acres of Tempranillo."
Doug Shafer:
Wow.
Kim McPherson:
And, you know, uh, Tempranillo, we've got uh, Sangiovese. My dad was the first guy to plant Sangiovese.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
In 1973. Beautiful grape here. Loves the heat. You know it didn’t like Atlas Peak.
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) that's out here in Napa. So-
Kim McPherson:
And they uh, they uh, they moved, you know, they planted that all back to Cab.
Doug Shafer:
They did. They did. So, uh, so basically the same old story matching the right grape with the right place and that's where you guys have been doing.
Kim McPherson:
That's what we've been doing but, you know, we still have some knuckleheads that-
Doug Shafer:
(laugh)
Kim McPherson:
I've planted 15 acres of Pinot Noir, we thought, "Why?"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Well, no, really someone-
Kim McPherson:
You know, 30 acres of Reisling. But why?
Doug Shafer:
30, 30 (laughs). You know, maybe just plant two or three and see how it does. You know? Kinda like your dad did? Kind like your like dad did, just try it out, you know.
Kim McPherson:
Well, y- you can tell him to go, "Don't do that here. It's too hot."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
You know, my wife loves Reisling. Well, go to the store and get her some, you know-
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Get her some, some from Germany, Alsace
Kim McPherson:
Germany, or... Washington state or so.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Now, what white grapes that are wonderful here is Viognier.
Doug Shafer:
Interesting. That's cool.
Kim McPherson:
Viongier is sort of our state white grape. There's no wineries making Viognier.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
Do the growers like it? Mm, the, you know Viognier is like Syrah. One year it's great the next year it's terrible.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
But it makes incredible white wine.
Doug Shafer:
Good.
Kim McPherson:
It does. Uh, Roussanne. I love Roussanne.
Doug Shafer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Kim McPherson:
Uh, Andy planted some more Marsanne for me. He planted two acres of Picpoul for me, Picpoul blanche.
Doug Shafer:
Really?
Kim McPherson:
Th- that grape, that was a-
Doug Shafer:
I've-
Kim McPherson:
That grape was the best white grape that San Francisco international, about two years ago, because I've never made Picpoul and-
Doug Shafer:
Well, I just started drinking it. It's delicious. (laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Well, we make Picpoul.
Doug Shafer:
Oh.
Kim McPherson:
And uh, the, you know, I can't, hell, I can leave it outside the liquor store store and people won't steal it.
Doug Shafer:
Right. (laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Stack it up, they just don't steal it. So, you know, they won't take Poul
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Oh man.
Doug Shafer:
You know something, listen
Kim McPherson:
Go ahead. (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I'll tell you what's gonna go ahead. As soon as it's, as soon as I feel good about getting on a plane, I'm coming to see you. I'm just, I've, I've had it.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, you're gonna have a place to stay.
Doug Shafer:
I, I'm, I'm, at your knocking on your door. I have a case of Picpoul with me. Anyway, all right so-
Kim McPherson:
Picpoul Blac uh, the other white grape that I have, I have, I have loved from day one here, is Chenin Blanc.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Nice.
Kim McPherson:
And it does very well. Uh...
Doug Shafer:
That's i- interesting. Does well in the heat. That's g-, that's good to hear.
Kim McPherson:
The, the, loves to heat. I don't make a lot of it, but I make it bone dry, and, uh, I have that on the East Coast, you know, I'm in, like, four states on the East Coast.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
I'm the only winery going out of state.
Doug Shafer:
Really?
Kim McPherson:
You know, in a- in a big sort of way, yeah, and, uh, I've ha- I've been on there seven years, and I've had that in w- in, uh, Jose and... one of Jose Andreas' restaurants for, like, four years by the glass.
Doug Shafer:
Good for you.
Kim McPherson:
Because the great sommelier by the name of Andy Myers, what a guy.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
I know Andy. Well, good for you. tell me about, we haven't talked about your own place. Tell- you started making your own, when did you start making your own label? And tell me the, how'd that come about? And how'd it grow? And wh- where you're at now in that whole thing?
Kim McPherson:
I first, I first started making it out of CapRock.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
... and I was making, I made a little bit of Cab, and I said, "No, you know what?" Out of my dad's stuff, I said, "You know, I'm going to, I'm going to do Sangiovese." My little brother taught my daddy to plant Sangiovese. You know what? Darrell Corti, you know Darryl the-
Doug Shafer:
Great.
Kim McPherson:
Great icon, Darrell Corti, he's- he has- he's had my brother, and me, send our Sangioveses, I've sent them twice to Italy through this Sangiovese Symposium, because he thought they were very indicative of the variety.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And so, I've done that, and- and they- it... You gotta try if they're just a great Sangiovese.
Doug Shafer:
I want to.
Kim McPherson:
For the money.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
I'll send you some vino.
Doug Shafer:
Deal, I'll-
Kim McPherson:
I got to get some.
Doug Shafer:
... yeah, send me some, I'll- we'll do a trade. Send me- send me something, and I'll send you back.
Kim McPherson:
Oh, I was (laughs), I'm going to trade you (laughs).
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
(laughs)
Doug Shafer:
No, no-
Kim McPherson:
Oh.
Doug Shafer:
Hey, hey.
Kim McPherson:
Aw-
Doug Shafer:
We go- we go bottle for bottle. We, uh, price has no issue. Bottle for bottle, buddy.
Kim McPherson:
But we, uh-
Doug Shafer:
I'm good with that.
Kim McPherson:
... we, we love Sangiovese. I run out of it every year. I do 1300 cases, 1350. I'm out for three months and it doesn't bother anybody.
Doug Shafer:
Good for you. Way to go.
Kim McPherson:
So, you know, it's not a big thing, but it grows well here.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Uh, going back to a real quick story, you remember, Neil... Uh, who has Far Niente, what was his uh ...
Doug Shafer:
Oh, uh ...
Kim McPherson:
Gil Nickels.
Doug Shafer:
Gil Nickel. Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, remember he was in our class too.
Doug Shafer:
He was! Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
He was in the vit class, remember he used to come and he would have the full race leathers on 'cause he had a BMW and I thought those coolest shit.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And he lived in San Francisco 'cause he had a flight attendant wife.
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
And this guy had a ton of money and god I mean god this guy was like, whoa! And he was from Oklahoma.
Doug Shafer:
Oklahoma Nursery Business, that's where he made his money and came out here and started Far Niente.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, he came to me and he says, "Kim, could you take notes for me" and ... finally I said "Yeah, yeah sure." So I'd take notes and give him copies and ... so, one time I had a friend, this was- it was six months before he died, seven months maybe, cancer you know. So I had a friend goes, "Hey, I'm going to Far Niente," and I said, "Oh great," so I said, "Here, give my card to old- to Gil, give it to him, and I wrote on the back, I said, "You still owe me beer money."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
And the guy sent me a case of wine in a wooden box, Chardonnay and Cabernet and a little note, he goes, "All right, I don't owe you any more beer money, have some of my swill."
Doug Shafer:
(laughs), oh he was a really sweet man.
Kim McPherson:
So, he was a great guy. That's a little story from Davis class.
Doug Shafer:
Oh man, haven't heard that one.
Kim McPherson:
So, anyway, we grow these varieties now, and I think I've got a lot of farmer, growers that are old cotton farmers that are really good growers ...
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
They do everything right, and I think they know, you know, what sells in this state is- is- you know, I do a lot of blends, but its all Rhone and Italian varieties, uh- some Spanish stuff. We have- I have some Graciano, Tempranillo and of course Mourvedre and Granache and Carignan are Spanish. And I blend those with Tempranillo and then I have a Rhone blend.
Doug Shafer:
Nice.
Kim McPherson:
And I guess you don't know, too, the story of Dave Phinney.
Doug Shafer:
No, tell me about it. Well I know Dave Phinney.
Kim McPherson:
You know, Dave ...
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, Dave Phinney is ...
Kim McPherson:
He's a good, he's been here now and we got ... we got plenty drunk.
Doug Shafer:
I would think, yeah I could see that happening.
Kim McPherson:
I said, "I think I could hang out with you for a while". (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs) Now, Dave ...
Kim McPherson:
He ...
Doug Shafer:
Okay, Dave's great.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, he came here with his wholesaler and we got to drinking 'cause his wholesaler wanted to do some ... he said, "Why can't we do a TX label?" Dave goes, "Okay, let's do a TX label."
Doug Shafer:
'Cause that's his ... uh, Dave's got this- this brand with a ...
Kim McPherson:
Locations.
Doug Shafer:
Location brands, Texas, TX, okay, got it, okay.
Kim McPherson:
So, we started this and he said, "I want your name on the back label too, and all this stuff and so we ... I've been doin' it now for, I guess this is our fifth year, or sixth year.
Doug Shafer:
Oh fun.
Kim McPherson:
But last year, Dave calls me up and he says, "Kim, I know I read the papers." And he sold it to Gallo.
Doug Shafer:
That's right.
Kim McPherson:
And I said, "Well good for you," and I said, "Well," I said, "They're probably not gonna wanna keep doing TX." And he said, "No, Kim, they wanna keep that one." He said, "They wanted to know if you could do 30,000 cases," and I went "Wh- wh- no!"
Doug Shafer:
(laughs). Come on Kim.
Kim McPherson:
I said no ...
Doug Shafer:
Crank it up baby!
Kim McPherson:
You said you're gonna get a letter from Gallo and all this stuff and I said, "Okay," and I thought oh boy, here ... and I said I was kind of scared.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And so they sent me a 28 page contract you know, and I was "Golly!"
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
You know, and they ... I looked it over and- and then my- my- my son in law is a lawyer in Napa at Dickerson, Peatman and you know ...
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Them. So I said, I'm gonna have a lawyer look at this. And he told me, he said, "Can't do it KMac, we represented Phinney." (laughs)
Doug Shafer:
(laughs)
Kim McPherson:
Ooh, damn! So, you know, we went over the contract and we changed a few things but you know, Gallo was very, you know, they were very nice and uh, they sent three guys out here and while we were bottling. And I thought they were gonna came and they'd stay sittin' and then they just showed up, but you know they came into this winery and they were just totally blown away.
Doug Shafer:
Huh.
Kim McPherson:
They did not ... they said they "Were very apprehensive 'cause we've never done anything in Texas and we didn't know what we would find" and they were just ... "Your winery is so clean, it's so this, it's so that," and we went "Thank you guys, that's how we do things here."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
And they were just ... they were so nice and the only thing that we weren't doin' is that we weren't swabbing after, you know, we sterilize.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And I said, "No problem, we can do that."
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. Huh.
Kim McPherson:
And they were happy. And uh, I have a ... I have a contract with 'em and you know, right now it's still workin', it's an evergreen contract and ...
Doug Shafer:
Well good.
Kim McPherson:
We'll see but you know, that- that right there, Doug, was a thing for me to say, maybe that- that we can do things here in Texas and that may be the big tide that can raise the boats.
Doug Shafer:
Sure.
Kim McPherson:
I don't know.
Doug Shafer:
Sure. No listen, it's more exposure for Texas wines, you know, I've had a lot of Texas wines. You know, when I travel down there it's fun to try the local stuff and no, the quality's great and it's getting better all the time so it's just a matter of exposure, getting it out there for people.
Kim McPherson:
Well, yeah, and you know, getting it where you can afford ... I mean, some of this wine's not worth 50 bucks a bottle. I mean, anyway, that's just my opinion but uh, you know, it- it's workin' right now.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
So, the Gallo thing and Dave, what a great guy ...
Doug Shafer:
And your wine ...
Kim McPherson:
Lives in St. Helena and he came here, huh?
Doug Shafer:
Yeah. So your winery's downtown Lubbock.
Kim McPherson:
Downtown Lubbock.
Doug Shafer:
And so ... cool, so you guys are cranking along and um, you and I both had the pleasure of working with our fathers and we've lost them both in the last few years.
Kim McPherson:
Yes.
Doug Shafer:
Question for you, you think your Dad knew how much impact he had on the whole Texas wine thing? You think he ... did he really know by the- what he did for that whole industry?
Kim McPherson:
Uh, yeah, in his ... you know, waning days, he, you know, he did, he thought he did a good job. He really wanted Texas wines in more states.
Doug Shafer:
Dis- dis- Distributed, yeah distributed around. Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
Yeah, you know, where people could say, "Golly they- they are doing something in Texas."
Doug Shafer:
Right.
Kim McPherson:
You know, and, but, that's where I said, "You know, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna- I'm gonna go out of state and if- and I lowered my prices to do it. I did everything, you know, to do this and on the back of my label I say you know, I say you know, McPherson Cellars is honor of my Dad, it- anyway, so.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, I saw that, that's really sweet touch, man. Thank- that's great.
Kim McPherson:
We uh, I'd love to see Texas doing more out of state. I mean, if we had just 10 varieties up here that we could just concentrate on and, and you know, and do that I think, I think we would get some notoriety but ... I may not be able to see that.
Doug Shafer:
You're making the first steps doing it so, you know, good for you. So cool. Anything new comin' down the pike?
Kim McPherson:
As far as ...
Doug Shafer:
New projects, new wines.
Kim McPherson:
Well, every year we do a new wine.
Doug Shafer:
Oh really?
Kim McPherson:
Well, I do, you know, maybe a hundred cases, maybe two hundred cases, always get my- I have a great assistant winemaker, he's from California and uh, he's from Temecula, and my little brother said, "You gotta hire this guy because he went out here to go to school at Texas Tech."
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And his name is Spencer and so every year I throw a curve in there. And last year, you know, I made a natural wine.
Doug Shafer:
Wow. You made a natural wine, good for you. I am gonna come see you, I want to try this.
Kim McPherson:
Well, we made it for a restaurant in Washington D.C. called The Queen's English.
Doug Shafer:
Okay.
Kim McPherson:
And they ... when I was there they said can you make a natural wine? I said, "Can you make a shoe stink?" You know.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Kim McPherson:
So, we took Viognier. And we made a natural wine and they just ... they fell in love with it. They loved it, it's called The Queen.
Doug Shafer:
I love it. Good for you.
Kim McPherson:
And now I'll probably have to do like five tons of that because everybody loved it around here but I said, No, it's not ... only did 80 cases for this restaurant.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah, see what happens? Good for you. So, hey, I gotta ask you something, before I forget, where do people find your wines? 'Cause you're only in a handful of states out of Texas so, do you guys have a good website? So, how can they do it?
Kim McPherson:
We have a great website. It- my- my daughter Cassandra is in charge of the website.
Doug Shafer:
Okay. What's the ...
Kim McPherson:
And I mean it is like pretty nice.
Doug Shafer:
What's the, what's the, what is it? McPherson?
Kim McPherson:
McPhersoncellars.com
Doug Shafer:
So it's M-C-P-H-E-R-S-O-N.
Kim McPherson:
P-H-E-R-S-O-N.
Doug Shafer:
Dot com. So folks who want to try some of these great wines from Texas check it out. And ...
Kim McPherson:
Yes, you can get, you can get, you can get everything we've got just about.
Doug Shafer:
And, I'm gonna take a minute here, my friend, I found a quote ...
Kim McPherson:
Uh-oh.
Doug Shafer:
Apparently, this is a quote from you, if it's not, please correct me but here's the quote. I have no idea where it came from but I'm going to read it. People need to hear this. This would be your advice to a young winemaker. "You've got to be a motorboat. You can't be an ocean liner. You've gotta be able to turn the corner and speed around the rocks. You've got to be able to think quick and you have to be objective about the wine you're making. Don't fall in love with the stuff. If it's not good when you put it in the barrel, chances are it's not gonna get any better." (Amen to that by the way). "You can't put lipstick on a pig. Take it while it's young and hot and do something else with it before it's too late. You've got to be creative about what to do with what you have."
Kim McPherson:
That sounds, real- that's- that's what I said.
Doug Shafer:
That sounds like you buddy. That sounds like you.
Kim McPherson:
I had a- I had a quote in the Dallas Morning News, I didn't think they'd print it but it came from the movie Chinatown.
Doug Shafer:
(laughing)
Kim McPherson:
And I just put "Old winemakers, buildings, and whores all gain respect with time and age."
Doug Shafer:
(laughing) Oh, and I think on that one we're gonna wrap this thing up. Mr. McPherson, my friend Kim ...
Kim McPherson:
Doug, thank you so much, I hope- I hope everything's good with you. I'm gonna come out there and see you.
Doug Shafer:
Yeah.
Kim McPherson:
You made my grower's day that day, called you up to say I know- I know Doug, I don't know if he's there and you said, "Get your ass over here now," and I said, "Come on Andy, you're gonna go to Shafer".
Doug Shafer:
(laughing) Anytime and uh, I'm gonna come see you as soon as I can and it's been so ...
Kim McPherson:
Please, buddy. I gotta a place to stay.
Doug Shafer:
Thank you.
Kim McPherson:
I gotta B&B. I gotta an Air BNB.
Doug Shafer:
There you go, it's been so good to reconnect with you, man, it's been too many years so it's so good to ... so let's stay in touch, please, please?
Kim McPherson:
Oh, oh yeah.
Doug Shafer:
All right buddy, you take care.
Kim McPherson:
All right, thanks Doug.
Doug Shafer:
Be good.
Kim McPherson:
Thanks for having me on your show and I really appreciate it.
Doug Shafer:
All right buddy, be good, love yeah. See ya.
Kim McPherson:
You too, love ya, bye-bye.
Doug Shafer:
Bye-bye.